Finally, after years of agitation and discontent, our ongoing MERP/roleplayer group has decided to switch systems (hooray), Unfortunately, there is no true consent about what shiny new game should replace the current mess of a game we use (basically a mesh up of MERP, Rolemaster and a large houserule bloat nobody seems to completely understand anymore). I had a few ideas (as do the others) and I am the "guy who knows many different roleplaying games", and I am not completely sure if there isn't a better option than my first gut feeling (that would be BRP or another member of the Runequest family, probably Legend, because it's cheap). So, I'm asking you for recommendations for good systems. Perhaps there is a hidden gem out there which we haven't seen yet which would be a nigh perfect fit.
The criteria so far for a new game are:
- The base is classic fantasy. With Elves, Dwarves, Orcs and so on. Strongly inspired by Tolkien, but expanded to a massive kitchen sink (think forgotten realms, but without any consistency).
- The system should be generic enough to be adjusted to the setting.
- The rule mechanics should be "sensible", meaning mostly "realistic" and strongly associated with the events in the game represented in the game; highly abstract games are not to this group's tastes.
- Task resolution should be decently quick and simple.
- the game should require little bookkeeping or nitty-gritty resource management.
- Many options for characters are good; classes, levels or other purely metagame concepts are not.
- Random character creation should at least be an option.
- Realism is more important than balance, balance is more important than cinematic spectacle, spectacle is more important than individual drama or other introspective elements.
- D&D in any form is for some reason or other unacceptable. No, the reasons aren't entirely rational.
So, if you have any recommendations for a game system that would fit those criteria, let me know.
Runequest 6e would be my first recommendation for non-D&D fantasy, and it seems to jive just fine with most of your criteria.
RQ6 is essentially a revision and/or expansion of Legend, which makes both games very similar. While Legend does indeed offer great value at $1 for the full game in PDF, RQ6 Essentials is PWYW (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/130816/RuneQuest-Essentials). You can nudge the rest of your group over there and let them check it out for themselves.
I am definitely more of a RQ6 fan, but both should do the trick.
Harnmaster (http://www.columbiagames.com/cgi-bin/query/harn/cfg/single.cfg?product_id=4001L), Harn is a bog standard, (although high detailed) medieval setting with elves, and dwarves. It easily adaptable to D&Dish or Tokienesque settings.
I also second Butcher recommendation for Legends/Runequest.
I dearly love HarnMaster, but a lot of that love is linked to the setting and that is way too detailed for this group. Besides, I already play HarnMaster (even though not frequent enough) so for entirely egoistic reasons, I wouldn't recommend that one.
RQ6 without a doubt. If your players aren't rules lawyers, then they can get Legend which is close to get the basics down.
Why RQ6 instead of any other BRP derived game? Well formed and different magic systems that can do subtle as well as overt and have different magical sources. If your players are used to running from an Olog Hai instead of cueing up Highway to the Danger Zone and charging, then RQ 6 is what you want, period.
Age of Shadow (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/93513/), based on OpenQuest (http://d101games.com/books/openquest/) may be of interest. It is First Age Middle Earth with the serial numbers filed off. Core rules are free in pdf; supplements are cheap.
Or there's Magic World (http://www.chaosium.com/magic-world-print-ebook/) for BRP.
I'd probably have to say RuneQuest 6th as well would be at least a good candidate for what they're after. It does a really good job of explaining core concepts in the book, too.
Even before the OP mentioned BRP/RQ family, that's what I was thinking based on where they're coming from.
The only other option I can think of would be a version of Talislanta/Omni, maybe High Medieval from Morrigan. I understand it uses levels in some way but my impression from Tal 4e, the basis of Omni, is that they're vestigial. (I.e. no escalating hit points.)
Except for no option for random character creation, HERO System 6e 1 (http://rpggeek.com/rpgitem/54678/hero-system-sixth-edition-volume-1-character-creat) & 2 (http://rpggeek.com/rpgitem/54679/hero-system-sixth-edition-volume-2-combat-adventur) and Fantasy Hero (http://rpggeek.com/rpgitem/87221/fantasy-hero-hero-system-6) might be worth a look. A new all-in-one rules & sourcebook, Fantasy Hero Complete, was recently funded via Kickstarter and should be released in early 2015. It will be similar to Champions Complete (http://rpggeek.com/rpgitem/133432/champions-complete).
Admittedly, if you are heavily invested in Runequest/BRP that would probably be a more seamless transition. However, since the house rules your group currently use already incorporate some of those rules it might be better in the long run to switch to something completely different.
D&D sounds perfect, but I guess it's too popular for your group. So edgy.
;)
RQ6 is great but a bit at the crunchy end for my preferences.
Openquest or Magic World are lighter fare which bring most of the same advantages (and seeing as how closely they're all related it's a doddle to interbreed between them)... and pull in additional powers/magics from the BRP toolbox.
Quote from: Beagle;781546The criteria so far for a new game are:
- The base is classic fantasy. With Elves, Dwarves, Orcs and so on. Strongly inspired by Tolkien, but expanded to a massive kitchen sink (think forgotten realms, but without any consistency).
- The system should be generic enough to be adjusted to the setting.
- The rule mechanics should be "sensible", meaning mostly "realistic" and strongly associated with the events in the game represented in the game; highly abstract games are not to this group's tastes.
- Task resolution should be decently quick and simple.
- the game should require little bookkeeping or nitty-gritty resource management.
- Many options for characters are good; classes, levels or other purely metagame concepts are not.
- Random character creation should at least be an option.
- Realism is more important than balance, balance is more important than cinematic spectacle, spectacle is more important than individual drama or other introspective elements.
- D&D in any form is for some reason or other unacceptable. No, the reasons aren't entirely rational.
So, if you have any recommendations for a game system that would fit those criteria, let me know.
WFRP hits everything on that list.
1st ed rather than second, as 2nd ed is a lot more tied to the setting.
I'd go with Legend. As already pointed out, it's really cheap and if you want to go further, then it's a very easy step to RQ6 .
There's a thread here about RQ and ME
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?666743-Runequest-Middle-Earth
Warning that it's a thread on TBP though.
Quote from: danbuter;781659D&D sounds perfect, but I guess it's too popular for your group. So edgy.
;)
Not really. Two of our groups have a history with one of the most awful campaigns I have ever heard of, based on Pathfinder. They have developed a strong dislike against the system on principle. Me, I just think the 5th edition seems to be an okay choice, but many key elements of D&D - like alignments, the rather abstract HP system, and classes and levels - just doesn't mesh particularly well with the preferences and ideas of this group. The existance of levels is one of the reason why we are going to abandon MERP, for example. We are looking for a different set of aesthetics than those provided by D&D. Things like "normal" humans being effectively tougher than, let's say elephants (let alone dragons) just doesn't feel right.
Besides, we're German. If we are going to shun a game for its popularity, it's DSA (even though mocking DSA is probably as mainstream among German gamers as the game itself ever was, so for the sake of being edgy, we should probably become its staunch defenders).
You've been using a big incoherent mashup of MERP/RM/houserules? For a moment I thought it must still be 1988...
Long before it got to that point, I would have suggested going to a clearly defined flavor of Rolemaster, such as RM2 with only a few options from the companions, or RMSS.
Or if you are not totally burned on ICE systems, and just want to simplify, you could check out HARP (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/104176/High-Adventure-Role-Playing-Fantasy) (High Adventure Roleplaying). RQ6 or another BRP game does also seem like it would suit the group.
Quote from: The_Shadow;781682Or if you are not totally burned on ICE systems, and just want to simplify, you could check out HARP (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/104176/High-Adventure-Role-Playing-Fantasy) (High Adventure Roleplaying). RQ6 or another BRP game does also seem like it would suit the group.
I ran HARP when it first came out and yes, it's actually very good.
I did get hit by the rules bloat thing over time, but it's my understanding there's a new edition.
It does feel like RM lite actually and in a good way.
Quote from: The_Shadow;781682You've been using a big incoherent mashup of MERP/RM/houserules? For a moment I thought it must still be 1988...
Yes, and the homebrewed campaign setting is probably as old as that, mostly written when the three old wise men (TM) of our group were back in school. I only joined the group two years ago, well into the second decade of its existance.
Quote from: The_Shadow;781682Or if you are not totally burned on ICE systems, and just want to simplify, you could check out HARP (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/104176/High-Adventure-Role-Playing-Fantasy) (High Adventure Roleplaying). RQ6 or another BRP game does also seem like it would suit the group.
Right. I forgot about HARP. That could be another good option.
Is there a game in my sig? Why yes there is! I'm a Rolemaster refugee myself. Actually the new edition has some good fixes.
Quote from: David Johansen;781734Is there a game in my sig? Why yes there is! I'm a Rolemaster refugee myself. Actually the new edition has some good fixes.
how is the new edition of RM coming along anyway?
Is it done yet?
Is it in print?
I had the playtest PDF a year or so back and it looked interesting.
Quote from: Simlasa;781663RQ6 is great but a bit at the crunchy end for my preferences.
Openquest or Magic World are lighter fare which bring most of the same advantages (and seeing as how closely they're all related it's a doddle to interbreed between them)... and pull in additional powers/magics from the BRP toolbox.
Out of curiosity, what are the differences between OpenQuest 2 and Magic World?
Another vote for RQ6. Hands down a solid, fun system.
Quote from: danskmacabre;781737how is the new edition of RM coming along anyway?
Is it done yet?
Is it in print?
I had the playtest PDF a year or so back and it looked interesting.
They're still banging away at it. I left and really haven't looked back much, honestly. My big issue is that I feel they refused to try and make some of RMSS's features supported options. So while some of the cleaning up like three additive stat bonuses for skills or ranks in a list as the level of spell you can cast are in, skill category ranks and training packages are right out. I'm not really fond of the new stat generation either.
What about GURPS? You can play it simply or with lots of options. It well designed. The only downside that it is primarily a toolkit.
Gurps is great and all, and Gurps Dungeon Fantasy was another system I had in mind as an alternative to the current rules, even though that would require a rather rigid set of filters to stop the sheer amount of options leading to a dillemma of choice.
Quote from: Beagle;781897Gurps is great and all, and Gurps Dungeon Fantasy was another system I had in mind as an alternative to the current rules, even though that would require a rather rigid set of filters to stop the sheer amount of options leading to a dillemma of choice.
Dungeon Fantasy is a little over the top, I personally go with 100 to 150 pt fantasy campaign and use DF as a resource.
As for the number of options, the general ideas is define what in your GURPS campaign first and then unleash the players. Otherwise it is a mess as you can literally be or do anything with the system.
The same is true of Hero System except that powers systems seems to work out better for defining the mundane and fantastic elements of the campaign. The main difference between the two is that GURPS centers on realistic character while Hero System centers on super heroes. But the both system have matured to the point that today that point is pretty much of a wash.
One thing that gives Hero System a slight edge over GURPS is the fact they are coming out with all in one rulebooks. They have Champions out now and Fantasy Hero will be out this fall. It the same system but formatted and presented as a complete RPG for the target genre.
GURPS sort of has it with lines like Dungeon Fantasy but there are more stuff to buy.
BUt GURPS has GURPS Lite in German so there is that.
RQ6 is the best choice IMO. Or Legend, MRQII, or OpenQuest if you prefer a more streamlined BRP.
Harnmaster would be great but alas... :)
Quote from: estar;781884What about GURPS?[...] The only downside that it is primarily a toolkit.
I find the same thing about RQ6, actually. There's a surprising amount of work the GM has to do before character creation can start, and although the intent of the game is that characters should be tightly integrated into their society and setting, I think that actually gets in the way of most heroic fantasy tropes.
Per the OP, points 3 and 4: RQ6 uses binary pass/fail skill rolls. The skill list isn't huge, but it's pretty much up to the GM to interpret what success and failure mean. It's not like PF where there's explicit mechanics for each skill.
Point 5: most of the bookkeeping takes place in combat. Fights are involved and detailed, but they're dangerous and deadly so they tend not to last that long in game rounds. OpenQuest or Magic World (nee Stormbringer) uses a simpler combat system with less bookkeeping.
Point 6: Absent different schools of magic, there isn't a whole lot of mechanical distinction between characters. Characters with different fighting styles will play differently in combat, but distinguishing two sword-and-board fighters has to be done in the roleplaying and the fiction.
Point 7: You can (and are expected to) randomly generate your base stats, but actual character creation involves apportioning out over 250 percentage points across your skills, limited by your Culture, social class and occupation. It's not fast or, IMHO, simple.
That said, RQ6 hammers most of your points, especially for a combat-heavy game, and definitely look at the Age of Shadow supplement.
Quote from: Celestial;781861Out of curiosity, what are the differences between OpenQuest 2 and Magic World?
Someone else may step in but I'll give this a shot. I'm more familiar with MW. What I think I know about OQ is that it is (originally?) a clone of Chaosium Runequest II by way of GORE, which was a clone of CoC, and GORE in turn used the original Mongoose RQ srd as its basis. I read some of OQ (1e I think) but I know Chaosium RQ II better, so much of my comment will be based on that.
Just to complete the summary of the genetic heritage, MW is based on Chaosium BRP, which mostly took Elric! as its standard, and MW made it even closer to Elric!, though without bringing back the Moorcock details (since the license was gone).
General system-wise, the major difference I can think of is that OQ uses a simple bonus/penalty based on GM judgment in increments of 25 percent while MW is less explicit. I think this hardly matters since you can choose to use either approach regardless of the game.
More significantly, while neither game uses hit locations (a major deviation from RQ II to OQ), I believe OQ still uses fixed armor absorption while MW makes armor variable, which kinda subs for hit location. MW also has, if I am not mistaken, a more detailed/graphic approach to critical hits.
Character generation in MW uses cultural background + profession to shape your starting skills and possessions, while I think OQ follows RQ II and so is "flatter".
Magic in OQ also follows RQ II so it has a very Gloranthan feel--basically everyone will have some battle magic. MW's basic magic system is similar but the spells are more varied, it's harder to have access to magic, and many spells are very limited in reach by-the-book--i.e. casting range is often touch even for attack spells. Compare disrupt or befuddle in RQ, which have a range. Then there's the biggie: MW includes demon-summoning. In the basic book, it's not as detailed as in Elric! or Stormbringer--for that you'll need Advanced Sorcery, which also adds some more magic systems.
I would welcome corrections, by the way. If OQ 2 has incorporated some of the magic and cultural background stuff from Runequest III, then it becomes more general-purpose and less focused on Glotantha/Dragon Pass (or settings with similar feel).
Another vote for RQ6.
OQ2 or BRP/MW also would be good options.
Heroes & Other Worlds (http://www.lulu.com/shop/cr-brandon/heroes-other-worlds-adventure-game/paperback/product-20975753.html) is basically a streamlined moderned-up version of The Fantasy Trip, and the Christopher Brandon has put out several supplements for it (including versions of Blackmarsh and Morgansfort adapted to its rules). It hits all your points and is pretty easy to pick up.
Oh, I would have recommended TFT but I didn't know how good any of the clones are. If H&OW does a good job of reproducing TFT it's definitely worth a look. (TFT itself has some quirks so I'm a little leery of how someone else would fix them.)
Yeah I would give Heroes and Other Worlds a look.
TFT is my favorite all time, 'desert island' fantasy roleplaying game, so I concur with that recommendation. The commercial retroclone is fine but relatively boiled down and simplified. I would just go get the original, which can be found by anyone with a little google-fu skill.
Did you look at the systems on merp.com?
Quote from: The Butcher;781548Runequest 6e would be my first recommendation for non-D&D fantasy, and it seems to jive just fine with most of your criteria.
RQ6 is essentially a revision and/or expansion of Legend, which makes both games very similar. While Legend does indeed offer great value at $1 for the full game in PDF, RQ6 Essentials is PWYW (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/130816/RuneQuest-Essentials). You can nudge the rest of your group over there and let them check it out for themselves.
I am definitely more of a RQ6 fan, but both should do the trick.
Another vote for RQ6 and I can't recommend Legend anymore since RQ Essentials is now free unless you want to pay a contribution:
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/130816/RuneQuest-Essentials
I would now skip Legend if you want a taster for the system as RQE is a better bet from the get go. It's 200 pages and has the core of the system intact. Since you already mentioned it you must have some experience of BRP or similar. RQ6 is an attempt to revise RuneQuest from the fractious state it's been in for the last 20-30 years. The Monster Island and Shores of Korantia supplements are good to look at as settings and applications of the rules.
What about Novus from Fire Hawk Games. It's a simple 2d10 system by the author of HARP.
Quote from: David Johansen;782040What about Novus from Fire Hawk Games. It's a simple 2d10 system by the author of HARP.
I have not played it, but it seems a pretty decent system.
Quote from: Beagle;781546Finally, after years of agitation and discontent, our ongoing MERP/roleplayer group has decided to switch systems (hooray), Unfortunately, there is no true consent about what shiny new game should replace the current mess of a game we use (basically a mesh up of MERP, Rolemaster and a large houserule bloat nobody seems to completely understand anymore). I had a few ideas (as do the others) and I am the "guy who knows many different roleplaying games", and I am not completely sure if there isn't a better option than my first gut feeling (that would be BRP or another member of the Runequest family, probably Legend, because it's cheap). So, I'm asking you for recommendations for good systems. Perhaps there is a hidden gem out there which we haven't seen yet which would be a nigh perfect fit.
The criteria so far for a new game are:
- The base is classic fantasy. With Elves, Dwarves, Orcs and so on. Strongly inspired by Tolkien, but expanded to a massive kitchen sink (think forgotten realms, but without any consistency).
- The system should be generic enough to be adjusted to the setting.
- The rule mechanics should be "sensible", meaning mostly "realistic" and strongly associated with the events in the game represented in the game; highly abstract games are not to this group's tastes.
- Task resolution should be decently quick and simple.
- the game should require little bookkeeping or nitty-gritty resource management.
- Many options for characters are good; classes, levels or other purely metagame concepts are not.
- Random character creation should at least be an option.
- Realism is more important than balance, balance is more important than cinematic spectacle, spectacle is more important than individual drama or other introspective elements.
- D&D in any form is for some reason or other unacceptable. No, the reasons aren't entirely rational.
So, if you have any recommendations for a game system that would fit those criteria, let me know.
You said it yourself, BRP or one of its variants is the best option for what you want. If you haven't decided yet which version you're going to use, I recommend that you download the following free/very cheap PDFs:
- Basic Roleplaying Quickstart (free)
- RuneQuest 6th Essentials (free)
- Legend ($1)
- Openquest 2nd Basic Edition (free)
Quote from: David Johansen;782040What about Novus from Fire Hawk Games. It's a simple 2d10 system by the author of HARP.
It's okay, I gm it. I prefer RQ6. Something about Novus feels out of sorts.
The character creation in RQ6 is easier, that is for sure (IMHO anyway).
Does anyone has an overview about the differences between legend and RQ6? I'm decently familiar with the former (as well as the Mongoose predecessors of both games), but the concrete differences between the two systems would be a great decision aid.
Quote from: Beagle;782252Does anyone has an overview about the differences between legend and RQ6? I'm decently familiar with the former (as well as the Mongoose predecessors of both games), but the concrete differences between the two systems would be a great decision aid.
RQ Essentials is free to download. One of the biggest differences is the revision of all the magic systems - but RQE leaves most of this out. Beyond that it's clear RQ6 is complete revision. Anything produced by Mongoose is a f-up to one degree or another including Legend.
Just as a point of trivia and irony, normal humans in TSR D&D mostly have about 1/4 to 1/3 the basic hit points of average humans in RQ and other BRP (in which damage rolls start on average just a pip or two higher, and go down rapidly due to armor). Notably skilled ones -- and here the points represent skill, not meat -- get into the BRP range.
Tough as elephants? Far from it! And you'll have a damned hard time killing a Rune Lord in RQ because all else aside you have to hit him first, and he can parry or dodge indefinitely. The D&D hero gets tired, and even divine favor runs out: That's what hp expenditure represents.
Without those points, and without a saving roll, he's just as vulnerable as a normal man.
I've been a fan of the BRP framework since Chaosium's original RQ. It's very easy to mix bits from various games in the family. For that matter, I found it not too hard to borrow stuff from GURPS -- a probability is a probability, whatever dice you use to generate it.
So unless something new and weird is going on, I wouldn't lose any sleep over Legend vs. MW vs. RQ6. As Steve Perrin and Ray Turney said in the original, take what you like and ignore what you don't!
Quote from: Phillip;782287So unless something new and weird is going on, I wouldn't lose any sleep over Legend vs. MW vs. RQ6.
You could say that something new is going on - because of the initiative Design Mechanism has taken over RQ6. What have done and are doing with RQ6 seems close in spirit to the RQ2 Chaosium era of RuneQuest. You probably have to give some credit to Mongoose for having a go at reviving RQ but they did it in such a haphazard way it's painful to see and what they have done with Legend so far is not impressive. TDM seem completely committed to supporting the system. The RQ6 core rules are a re-write from the Mongoose versions and it's the first time for many years that certain areas have been thoroughly re-considered, like the magic systems. Even though the rulebook is 'all you need' they have also released small supplements which expand on that core - the firearms supplement, ships & mass battles, space knights & wizards, Monster Island gives a ton of examples of how to use sorcery in a setting and expands on the Lizard & Serpentmen as characters and antagonists.
Because of this I would not put MW and Legend in the same category as RQ6, not that there's anything wrong with them but they haven't gone through the same revision process and do not have anywhere near the level of support. Of course BRP players are used to mixing and matching rules from different settings and there's nothing to stop you doing that but RQ6 is substantial enough to not necessarily need that.
Quote from: Bilharzia;782387Because of this I would not put MW and Legend in the same category as RQ6,
Quite simply, RQ6 has been done with great love and attention to detail by talented developers. It's one of the highest quality RPG products of the last few years (barring the art which is merely passable).
MW and Legend, while both work as rulesets, seem amateur in comparison.
That may be, but MW (especially) is going to suit some people better than RQ6 if that's the only thing you buy or if you don't care to spend a lot of time hacking rules sets or playing an involved system. The same surely applies to OQ.
In addition, I think RQ6 has some elements (mainly around combat sequencing, combat skills, and skill development) which are significant departures from how things have been done in RQ/BRP-land. I can't say if I like them or not but I can imagine reasonable people preferring the "old ways", and not just for nostalgia.
But really, on reviewing the OP (describing the campaign and current system), I think that RQ6 is probably going to be more up their alley.