Quote from: Matt;879156Gotta love the Pundit. He scrolls through a few Wiki articles and deems himself an authority not to be questioned.

I think this is unjust. He sounds well-read and I'm reasonably certain he's read more than just Wiki articles about Dee.

But the deep-thinking, genius who understands the world in a way that the we poor mundane masses, trapped in our mundane reality, and brainwashed and blinded by our materialist view to the true nature of reality do not and probably cannot understand fits Pundits self-image and shtick to a T.

Skeptical inquiry tip: Whenever anyone, but most especially a self-described RPG designing genius claims that other people disagree with him because they are brainwashed, watch out.

Quote from: Omega;879158Shouldn't this be in Tangency? :rolleyes:

I knew I took a wrong turn somewhere.

Quote from: Omega;879158Shouldn't this be in Tangency? :rolleyes:

In fairness, I'm pretty sure I now know one reason why playing OSR/OGL/D&D in literal fantasy Europe would be a bad idea, and especially if RPGPundit and Bren were both at the table.

Quote from: RPGPundit;879129So if it did, that means Dee had a conversation (a bunch of conversations, for years and years, actually). His conversation was with something self-identifying as an angel (a bunch of angels, each with different appearance and personalities).

Hrrrm? I had a conversation with an Angel once. It was at an interesting point in my life where I had two very divergent paths to follow, and I was in the process of making a choice as to which path to take.

The angel had stopped right in front of me on the street, right at a busy intersection and abruptly started a conversation with me, even though I had never met her before. She was remarkably beautiful, slim with fair skin, and long platinum blonde hair. No visible feathered wings. Just sayin'

This choice was not a clear-cut case of a path of good versus evil, more like two paths that would take me in two radically different directions, one towards more familiar people and places. With the other choice, I would remain in place, and get to meet a host of new people. In the long run, I couldn't even guess which choice would be the beneficial choice for me, and so asked the Angel to choose for me. This was of course after the angel had identified herself as an Angel, and let me know she was there to help me at that moment in time, but before I had informed her I was in the process of making a decision right there and then.

This had the added benefit of removing any self-doubt or regret regarding the choice, and I moved confidently to meet my future after that, the future of more familiar people and places. Later, I moved on from that of course, and went off to meet a whole new group of people, however it was a very good choice at the time, and allowed me to learn much more about the people whom I was already familiar with.

In return for choosing, I asked the Angel if she wanted anything in return. She wanted to be taken to her next meeting, so I arranged that without delay, escorted her to her next meeting, and that was the end of it.

No high magic was involved, nor were any miracles displayed, for none were needed, just a bit of wisdom, and some good counsel.

If John Dee says he met an Angel, and had many conversations with it, and wrote that all down in a book, who am I to doubt that, since I actually met an Angel myself, and held an extended conversation with one. I could have written a book about it. Didn't seem like a big deal though.

Also, we are kind of getting off subject here, though aren't we? We should be talking about RPG gaming in Fantasy Europe, which would be like Historical Europe but with D&D magic instead of real magic, right?

Quote from: Matt;879155Are you really this credulous or is it just another part of your wannabe-Hunter Thompson of the  RPG world act?

"We were riding on the banks of the Thames, somewhere near the City, when the powders began to take hold."

All this talk about paradigms and belief and mystical stuff that's simply over my head still doesn't refute my belief that D&D magic, as presented and expected to be used would utterly destroy everything that a pseudo-historical game would want to achieve simply because D&D magic works in a certain manner that simply changes everything.

0eD&D, AD&D, 3e and it's wannabe fantasy heartbreakers (like OSRIC, Labyrinth Lords, Swords and Wizardry, Castles and Crusades and all the rest) have some basic gameplay assumptions that simply won't work with anything resembling the real world.

Quote from: RPGPundit;879013So we don't just have heresay that John Dee talked with angels, or a book where he claimed to talk to angels for the sake of some audience, we have huge transcripts of his conversations precisely as they took place.

of his conversations with Edward Kelley who was a con man.

I see Pundit is now actively overlooking this thread. I don't blame him, the multi-front scrutiny was getting a little intense. I was curious to see what his response would have been.

Quote from: rawma;879208In fairness, I'm pretty sure I now know one reason why playing OSR/OGL/D&D in literal fantasy Europe would be a bad idea, and especially if RPGPundit and Bren were both at the table.

Actually Pundit and I agree that it is possible to include magic in a literal fantasy Europe. It's the real world that we disagree about.

Quote from: Bren;879580Actually Pundit and I agree that it is possible to include magic in a literal fantasy Europe.

I don't disagree there either actually, I disagree that D&D magic as written in the various D&D editions and their various heartbreakers would work.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;879281All this talk about paradigms and belief and mystical stuff that's simply over my head still doesn't refute my belief that D&D magic, as presented and expected to be used would utterly destroy everything that a pseudo-historical game would want to achieve simply because D&D magic works in a certain manner that simply changes everything.

0eD&D, AD&D, 3e and it's wannabe fantasy heartbreakers (like OSRIC, Labyrinth Lords, Swords and Wizardry, Castles and Crusades and all the rest) have some basic gameplay assumptions that simply won't work with anything resembling the real world.

Wouldn't this depend on the frequency of magic? For example, if only Merlin and a handful of others could use magic in all of Britain, and "clerics" wasn't all clergymen - but instead only potential saints.

This does have the potential problem that cleric and wizard PCs are potentially of enormous power and interest within the social world - but situations can be set up to counter that, like other powerful people opposed to them.

Quote from: jhkim;879625Wouldn't this depend on the frequency of magic? For example, if only Merlin and a handful of others could use magic in all of Britain, and "clerics" wasn't all clergymen - but instead only potential saints.

And that ends the moment you give Magic to PC's.  Cuz you'll need villains and other foes to counter them, and that requires MORE magic.

Quote from: jhkim;879625This does have the potential problem that cleric and wizard PCs are potentially of enormous power and interest within the social world - but situations can be set up to counter that, like other powerful people opposed to them.

Do you know how many magical spells makes temporal power meaningless?  All of them.  D&D breaks any analog to the 'real' world.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;879634Do you know how many magical spells makes temporal power meaningless?  All of them.  D&D breaks any analog to the 'real' world.

All of them? That's just crazy talk.

Sure one might want to reskin something like magic missile to make it look and act more of a curse or require an actual bow or something, but even left as is, it hardly makes temporal power meaningless. One guy in robes with a magic missile or two or even a dozen is hardly a replacement for a company of longbowmen or even half a dozen archers. Similarly Hold Portal doesn't make mundane locks meaningless. The number of doors that can be held or even Wizard Locked is, after all, finite. Continual Light widely used would make the world a different looking place so you couldn't have that. A temporary Light spell could be worked in though.

I think that everyone here has agreed that if you have widely available, commonly used, visually observable magic that doesn't accord with Medieval myth and legend e.g. Fireballs being cast in public at a moment's notice, Lightning Bolts used on a clear day in full view of the army like Napoleonic artillery, Magic Shops in every town and village, and Continual Light streetlights glowing on every corner those sorts of spells used in those sorts of ways wouldn't fit a fantasy Europe.

And by the way, if you make fantasy Europe's population look like some fantasy D&D towns where every block has at least a handful of Elf gardeners, dwarf smiths, hobbit inn keepers, ogre bouncers, and the occasional Dark Elf fantasy Nirvana musicians touring band that won't look like fantasy Europe even without over the top magic everywhere.

But neither of those things is what we are talking about doing. Yet you keep coming back to the idea of exactly like everything in vanilla D&D. I agree with you that uncontrolled access to all the spells in D&D won't work. So either don't do that. Or don't do a literal fantasy Europe with a kitchen sink of magic and monsters.

Personally I wouldn't allow Magic Shops in every town and village, Continual Light streetlights glowing on every corner, mixed population towns and villages everywhere, or a lot of the other tropes of an Order of the Stick style fantasy world. Not because it doesn't fit literal fantasy Europe, but just because it doesn't appeal to me. It seems like a parody of a fantasy world and I just don't find parody an entertaining setting for gaming. YMMV and all that shit.

Quote from: rawma;879208In fairness, I'm pretty sure I now know one reason why playing OSR/OGL/D&D in literal fantasy Europe would be a bad idea, and especially if RPGPundit and Bren were both at the table.

Quote from: Bren;879580Actually Pundit and I agree that it is possible to include magic in a literal fantasy Europe. It's the real world that we disagree about.

Oh, sure, the game starts out alright with everyone promising it'll be OK, and not like last time! and so on. But then somebody says "paradigm" or "reality" or "I wonder if this ring of many wishes would actually have far-reaching socio-economic ramifications" or uses a crossbow from the wrong century, and the whole thing falls apart. Better just to start off in the Forgotten Realms in the first place, I tell you.

Quote from: rawma;879743Oh, sure, the game starts out alright with everyone promising it'll be OK, and not like last time! and so on. But then somebody says "paradigm" or "reality" or "I wonder if this ring of many wishes would actually have far-reaching socio-economic ramifications" or uses a crossbow from the wrong century, and the whole thing falls apart. Better just to start off in the Forgotten Realms in the first place, I tell you.

That would never work. Forgotten Realms came out in 1987. That was years after any edition of D&D I've enjoyed playing. So we'd just end up arguing about whether or not hit points in the Forgotten Realms are sufficiently associative. Then Justin Alexander would pop in to direct us to his blog posts that explain what associative means and why hit points really and truly are associative. Then the thread would explode into cluster bomb and napalm posts. Better not to risk it.

Besides Uruguay is pretty low on my vacation destination list and unlikely to be a work stop. And Pundit has a waiting list. With auditions. I'd probably end up walking out of that audition too.

Put some limiters in and even 5e could work.

Personally I think B with a little of X D&D would work best as you dont have quite the power access you do in AD&D or OD&D.

Either limit it to just B and accept that level 3 for PCs is the max. Or allow X and cut off at level 4 or 5 depending on how much eventual oomph you want PCs to have. Or even regular  BX with a serious curb on access to spells and items and things level out nicely for a fantasy Europe setting.