TheRPGSite

....is out (http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/osric/), and free to download.

~400 pages of old-school gaming.  I downloaded it last night and am still reading it, but it looks to be a really, really good effort and a superb resource.  Nice work to everyone involved.

Other thoughts on it so far?

It looks rather nice, but I think if I wanted to play 1e, I'd play, you know, 1e. Beyond that, the afterword is a masterpiece of unintentional irony.

I think, for people who don't actually have the 1E book (and those who do but would prefer to have everything in one book) this is a pretty damn good resource. I can see it being especially useful for teaching people the game - OSRIC 1.0 was a bit too bare bones for that.

QuoteBeyond that, the afterword is a masterpiece of unintentional irony.

It's only ironic to the intentionally thickheaded.

You won't hear me complaining - I finally got a chance to rewrite the random table of whores. Jeez, I think I might just have them start engraving that into my tombstone.

Very nice, now we need to see some supporting products released using OSRIC, or at least see some pimping of the existing products.

Quote from: RockViper;270297Very nice, now we need to see some supporting products released using OSRIC, or at least see some pimping of the existing products.

I have plans along those lines.  :)

My only disappointment is the alphabetical spell listing.  I've yelled about this before; I don't think anyone goes looking for a specific spell and needs the entire list in order.  When you get a new fifth level spell, you want to browse the whole menu, compare one spell to another.  The 3.x alphabetical listing thing means you have to scan the spell list in the beginning, hunt up that spell and make notes, then go back and find the next spell, hunt that one up then make notes, &c.

Besides that, a few minor nitpicks:  Green?  Really?   Errr...  And a personal pet peeve, some of the tables break across columns and/or pages.  I found only one table like that in the PHB, and that one broke across a page, too (preposterous!).  The DMG has a couple.  I find them no less jarring, for the record.

Aside from those minor issues, I agree.  Excellent work on the whole thing!  Now I can stop using the rough draft and really start getting down to business!

Congratulations, Messers. Marshall and Finch!  As well to the rest of the development staff!

Quote from: Aos;270260Beyond that, the afterword is a masterpiece of unintentional irony.

Are you referring to an afetrward to a 400 page rulebook advising one to ignore the rules, or is there something else going over my head?

Which then goes on to tell you how to play? Yeah that one, but as Kelri stated above I'm intentionally thick headed, which is okay, because I don't claim to be anything other than an idiot, never have, never will.
I encourage everyone to call me names. I think it's cool.

Quote from: Aos;270344I encourage everyone to call me names. I think it's cool.

You're an idiot.  :)

Remember, folks: people who pimp OSRIC are better people.  They're more intelligent, sexier, more successful, thinner, and in fact superior in every possible way.  

People who don't pimp OSRIC are obese virgins living in squalour, and you should show your contempt for them by spitting on them as you pass.

Osric- it picks up where evolution left off.

A sterling effort, but I'm still not quite sure what the point of it all is. The legal arguments don't make a lot of sense.

Quote from: noisms;270357A sterling effort, but I'm still not quite sure what the point of it all is. The legal arguments don't make a lot of sense.

Well, I started this in 2006.  Things were different then and the only people who dared to use a certain trademark were Dragonsfoot and a few very obscure people writing for their own pleasure, and none of this stuff was available in from commercial publishers or in print.

The fear at that time was that if someone produced a commercial or printed product for 1e, WOTC would close them down.

The first fully 1e-compatible, print products in the 21st century were OSRIC ones.  Unless you count Castles and Crusades, which I found for many reasons unsatisfactory.

By the time OSRIC launched, there was Rob Kuntz and his little venture with a "CU" game system.  That was fully 1e-compatible but it was a system RJK owned, so it still wasn't facilitating a free market in 1e print products.

Then, after OSRIC's launch, Kenzer and others started using the "compatible with" approach, and that caused people to wonder whether OSRIC's necessary at all.

To which the answer is no, it isn't necessary, and you don't have to use OSRIC to write 1e material.

So if it isn't necessary, is it justified?

I think the answer is a resounding "yes".

First, the market's accustomed to OGL-style gaming and there's quite widespread belief in the Open Gaming movement.  That's why you can buy about 50 OSRIC-compatible products from YourGamesNow, among other places, but only a dozen or so that are directly "compatible with 1e".  

So for some people the fact that OSRIC is OGC-based has value.

Second, there was fan demand for OSRIC as a complete game.  And that surprised me, because I'd personally always envisaged it as a dry, minimalistic SRD to facilitate publishers.  I'd always imagined that the rulebooks that would "really" be in play would be the ones Gary Gygax wrote.

But I found that fans had grown accustomed to Labyrinth Lord, and if you've seen LL, you'll know that it's a complete game in its own right.  You don't need anything else, you can just play using the rules as you find them, and people appreciated that.

So I got PMs and emails asking me when I was going to do the same with OSRIC.

So there was a response to fan demand.

And third (and finally), there was a feeling among some fans that if a rulebook is in print, there's a living game to rally behind while if the rulebook is out of print, then the game's dead.  And fans wanted a living game.

They also wanted cheap table-copies of the rules they could use without worrying if someone spilled beer or coffee on them.  :)

OSRIC should hopefully satisfy these requirements as well.

A lot of the legal arguments in the document are a legacy of 2006 rather than something that matters today, but I've left them there because I was (perhaps sentimentally) anxious to retain Matt Finch's original words in the document as purely as possible.

Quote from: StormBringer;270318My only disappointment is the alphabetical spell listing.  I've yelled about this before; I don't think anyone goes looking for a specific spell and needs the entire list in order.  When you get a new fifth level spell, you want to browse the whole menu, compare one spell to another.  The 3.x alphabetical listing thing means you have to scan the spell list in the beginning, hunt up that spell and make notes, then go back and find the next spell, hunt that one up then make notes, &c.

The alphabetical listing of the spells, and the thematic listing of monsters (all the humanoids together, all the undead together, all the extra-planar monsters together, etc.) were done deliberately to make the book a useful complement for people who already have the actual 1E rulebooks: if you're trying to decide which 2nd level spells you want your cleric to memorize, the the AD&D PH, with spells arranged by level, is the more convenient reference. But if you've found a scroll, or are a GM reading a module and see a reference to an unfamiliar spell and want to look it up without knowing what level it is, the OSRIC presentation is more convenient. The same, in reverse, applies to the monsters (a GM designing an adventure who knows he wants an undead monster in this room has them all grouped conveniently together in OSRIC, whereas a GM reading a module and coming across an unfamiliar name would be better served by the alphabetical 1E listings).

It's important to emphasize that OSRIC isn't intended to supplant or replace the 1E rules, it's intended to revive them. The goal is to see OSRIC rulebooks and 1E rulebooks sitting side by side at the game-table and used interchangeably, both by old-timers inspired to take another look at the game they once played and kids discovering it for the first time.

Quote from: T. Foster;270362The alphabetical listing of the spells, and the thematic listing of monsters (all the humanoids together, all the undead together, all the extra-planar monsters together, etc.) were done deliberately to make the book a useful complement for people who already have the actual 1E rulebooks:

I can dig it.  But you more or less directly contradicted Mr. Marshall directly above your post.

Quote from: StormBringer;270365I can dig it.  But you more or less directly contradicted Mr. Marshall directly above your post.

How so?

My point was that there are some people who want in-print rulebooks.  Trent's was that the in-print rulebook also serves to complement the out-of-print ones; I don't see the incompatibility.

Quote from: P&P;270371How so?

My point was that there are some people who want in-print rulebooks.  Trent's was that the in-print rulebook also serves to complement the out-of-print ones; I don't see the incompatibility.

I'm reading your post as saying that you want a full, stand-alone game.  Mr Foster seems to be saying that it is really just a compliment or supplement for 1st edition.

Quote from: StormBringer;270372I'm reading your post as saying that you want a full, stand-alone game.  Mr Foster seems to be saying that it is really just a compliment or supplement for 1st edition.

It can't be both?

For the record, my position is that OSRIC's playable as a stand-alone game, but the 1e system is best read in Gary Gygax's words.

Yeah, it can be both, to a degree.  I can see both sides; after all, I told everyone on my Castle Amber thread to grab a copy of OSRIC if they don't have the 1st edition books, so I am ahead of your curve.  :)

It just read like you both had your own ideas on what goal the book has.  That said, I don't think I will ever like alphabetical spell listing.  Poring over the spells gives one a little of the feel of being an actual Magic-User.  Conversely, the categorized monster listing has some merits, but that is where I would have made them alphabetical, and provided some handy lists by category, which were lacking in the original books.

Again, don't take my minor nitpicking as a condemnation, I am totally jazzed you and the other contributors got v2 out into the public.  I have devious plans for the future with this hot little item in my grubby mitts.

But, come on man, green?  ;)

I like green.  :(

Hey, P&P: are you considering doing a greyscale version with less funky backgrounds on some of the pages for ease of printing?

I'll need to do a greyscale version for Lulu to print.  I hadn't planned on changing any of the backgrounds, though.

How many people think the backgrounds are an issue?

It's an issue if you are trying to print the PDF yourself, because you happen to live in a country where Lulu's postage rates are insane, or because, like me, you're the sort of person who isn't thrilled with the idea of paying money to Lulu to get a print of something I can download for free. I'd much rather print it out myself, not pay Lulu a penny, and shoot a donation at the people who put together the item in the first place.

White text on a basically black background = massive, massive ink use. Almost-monochrome with liberal amounts of green splashed everywhere? SERIOUSLY ASS-HURTING INK USE.

What you have basically put together there is a magic formula for consuming ink cartridges. For people printing at home, that's a serious hassle. For those taking the PDF to a print shop to get it printed, that's going to seriously increase the amount it costs them to get a printed copy. Given that the stated aim of the project is to provide a cheap "table-use" book for player and DM alike, that's a serious issue.

Seriously people, if you want folk to be able to print out your .PDF game and actually play it at the table, follow the simple rule: interior pages black and white, front and back cover colour. It's only polite.

I'm not soliciting donations, though.  :)

I agree the document as it stands will be a pain in the ass to print and if you do it on a home printer, it'll look like shit too.  It's designed to be used as a .pdf.

At some point I'll probably get to a version designed for the home-printer crowd; how urgent that is depend how many people tell me they want to do it.

The lulu super-cheap-ass print option should check in at about $8.60 plus shipping, by the way.  I doubt if you can print it for less at home?

It's so funny, SB....my first reaction was..."really? green?"

But it looks, overall, awesome. P&P...you, sir, deserve a hearty round of applause.

:worship:

That's not enough...

:respect:

You know, I was going to bitch about "how lame, it's 1E I got that already yawn etc.," but... dude, this looks very nicely done indeed. I would buy the Lulu version.

I like green too, btw. :D But the fact remains, it's unprintable. :(

Anybody found a cockup or typo in it?  I'm relying on the public to tell me where the mistakes are so I can fix them before I start taking people's money.  (I've proofread it several times, but the author's always a crap proofreader.)

There's one serious one I already know about... the sample dungeon map doesn't have room numbers.

BTW, all joking, philosophical differences and name calling aside, I think what you've done is quite admirable- not for me, mind you, but nifty all the same.


P.S. I used up all my daily and encounter powers on this post. Now I will need to take a short rest.

Thanks for the kind words, Aos.  Though I have no idea at all what that last paragraph means.  :)

Immense! Nice to see OSRIC as a fully realised game vs. just a reference; although if I wanted 1e, I would play 1e, this is an impressive presentation of the ruleset with artwork that "gets it". Check out those full colour pieces by P. Mullen. The man has talent - Otusian without being imitative!

Quote from: P&P;270359And third (and finally), there was a feeling among some fans that if a rulebook is in print, there's a living game to rally behind while if the rulebook is out of print, then the game's dead.  And fans wanted a living game.

They also wanted cheap table-copies of the rules they could use without worrying if someone spilled beer or coffee on them.  :)

OSRIC should hopefully satisfy these requirements as well.

Okay, that's a good enough justification by itself.

QuoteA lot of the legal arguments in the document are a legacy of 2006 rather than something that matters today, but I've left them there because I was (perhaps sentimentally) anxious to retain Matt Finch's original words in the document as purely as possible.

Sounds fair enough.

I wasn't criticising the product itself, I hasten to add. It's all brilliantly done.

Thank you!  :)

People from other sites have found a second mistake, by the way.  Nobody from here's caught one yet, so I'm starting to think the RPG site sucks at picking nits.  :P

Prove me wrong!

Quote from: Pierce Inverarity;270405You know, I was going to bitch about "how lame, it's 1E I got that already yawn etc.," but... dude, this looks very nicely done indeed. I would buy the Lulu version.

My sentiments exactly.  Very nicely done!  A printable b&w version would be nice for people who'd like to print out the tables and such for reference.

Haven't had a chance to give the full document more than a quick skim, so no info on typos or anything yet.

Quote from: P&P;270402The lulu super-cheap-ass print option should check in at about $8.60 plus shipping, by the way.  I doubt if you can print it for less at home?

Yes, and I will tell you why: It's the "Plus Shipping" that really kills Lulu for me as being an affordable option. Lulu's prices are quite reasonable in the States, but if you live beyond the States then you end up having to deal with whichever local printers they happen to have an arrangement with. If you are lucky, "local" will mean "on the same continent".

In my experience, shopping with Lulu as a UK customer is like playing Russian Roulette. Personally, I've never had any problems, but I've also only ever bought three books from them; a friend of mine who does much more business with Lulu has had some truly horrendous experiences.

I could take the PDF to the print shop and print it off for way cheaper than Lulu's price plus shipping. And I'll get my book that afternoon, not whenever Lulu pull their finger out of their ass and actually print the damn book. In terms of both time and money, Lulu loses big time.

Well, my experience shopping with Lulu as a UK customer's always been perfectly satisfactory and the shipping rates were quite reasonable.  Admittedly it's been a few months since I bought from them.

Lulu use Lightning Source as their printers, and Lightning Source have offices in Milton Keynes, which is about fifty miles from my house.

What's the difference between Osric 1.0 and 2.0?

Is a hardcover version of Osric going to be sold in game stores in the future?

Quote from: Spinachcat;270533What's the difference between Osric 1.0 and 2.0?

OSRIC v1.00 contained three chapters in 132 pages. The chapters were on character creation, how to play, and spells.

OSRIC v2.00 puts the same three chapters in 147 pages, with some expansions to the "How to Play" chapter. (The additional material comprises a page of optional tables to generate character height and weight, rules for poison, disease and insanity, rules for hirelings and henchmen, a sample dungeon and an example of play.) It also reorganises and re-presents the material with fresh art.

Then there are three new chapters. Chapter IV is called "Dungeons, Towns and Wildernesses" although the reality is it's very dungeon-centric. It talks about how to create and run dungeon adventures, and it gives rather less detail on wildernesses and towns.

Chapter V is called "Monsters". It lists 285 monsters in OSRIC format.

Chapter VI is called "Treasure". It discusses treasure of all kinds and lists 442 magic items.

Then you get appendices, consisting of a form-fillable character sheet and compiled tables, plus a rather complete index.

And that's how we filled 402 pages.  :)

Quote from: Spinachcat;270533Is a hardcover version of Osric going to be sold in game stores in the future?

That depends on a number of things, but mostly on me finding a distributor who're reputable and credible and come with references, and yet are also willing to work for a price I can afford.  And are also willing to distribute the book for me despite the fact that anyone can download it for free off the internet or order the softcover for $8.50 plus postage via Lulu's "ultra-cheapass" service.

The free download and the $8.50 softcover are non-negotiable, by the way.  I want this product to be accessible to young people and disabled veterans and, well, anyone who wants to play it.  Not just to the 30-somethings and the 40-somethings who're accustomed to paying $40 for a game book.

... So, basically, unless a wealthy person hands me a fat lump sum of cash and says, "Here you go, my man, take all this money and invest it in OSRIC", probably not in the foreseeable future.  :)

Incidentally, in a post-credit-crunch world, I suspect a lot of game stores are about to go the way of the dinosaur.  I think the future of this hobby's on the web.

Quote from: P&P;270544Incidentally, in a post-credit-crunch world, I suspect a lot of game stores are about to go the way of the dinosaur.  I think the future of this hobby's on the web.

I agree the credit crunch world is going kill game stores.   However, since most of our hobby is not online and only a tiny fraction participates with online RPG forums, I don't see much of a future for the hobby because they will never find the PDF / Lulu products.

BTW, I do think people would spend money on a glossy hardcover with great art and engaging text even if a more bare bones version was free online.   Especially since most buyers would not even know the free version existed.

Well, we'll see.  I think networking and communication will move online more and more over the next decade, and amazon will thrive at the expense of bookstores, and e-book games will thrive at the expense of gamestores.

And how long will it be before your office printer can churn out a glossy-cover perfect-bound book?

So....has anybody read through it yet? Dying to hear something substantial.

Quote from: Kellri;270859So....has anybody read through it yet? Dying to hear something substantial.

I re-read all the parts I worked on, but I don't think that counts ;)

I have only had time to scan through it.

-Holy crap its bookmarked, thanks that really improves the usefulness 1000%.
-The Art is dead on, excellent work on that.

It needs leveled lists of spells. Anyone know where I can send off an e-mail on that? (Yes, I did google it)

Well, the Editor-in-Chief is on this very thread, so you can direct your comments to P&P.

@P&P: Add some leveled lists of spells, please.

Done. :D

Quote from: Kellri;270859So....has anybody read through it yet? Dying to hear something substantial.

Its solid work that all the contributors can be very proud to have done.   The writing is halfway between the faux-Gygaxian of C&C and the legalese of the D20 SRD.   Not passionate or exciting, but very readable, clean and logical in layout.  Some of the art is surprisingly good.  

It compares favorably to most any small press PDF.  You would usually pay $10 on RPGnow for a complete game of similiar quality.

There is no doubt OSRIC hits its goal of being a 1e SRD.  There is minimal deviation from AD&D and that right there will determine most people's reaction to OSRIC.   I can appreciate what it is and what it does, but reading through it reminded me why I don't play AD&D anymore.    That said, it has some useful bits for S&W or LL fans or any gamers who don't own the 1e books.

The random dungeon generator is good stuff.  I particularly like the Starter Rooms on page 157 - start your dungeon shaped as a corpse!

QuoteI re-read all the parts I worked on, but I don't think that counts

Me too, and I for one am hoppin' mad P&P took out all of my extreme sacrificial rituals.

Quote from: Kellri;271044Me too, and I for one am hoppin' mad P&P took out all of my extreme sacrificial rituals.

That's what accessories are for :)

Quote from: Spinachcat;271005It compares favorably to most any small press PDF.  You would usually pay $10 on RPGnow for a complete game of similiar quality.

[rant]

That's because role-playing games have this ripoff culture where it's somehow okay to charge $10 for a .pdf and $50 for a hardback book.  And in far too many cases, the hardback book has inch-wide page borders, a huge fat font, and multiple repetitions of the same information just so as to bulk the page-count and justify the price.  And the buyers seem to bend over for this quite happily.

It's also standard practice to sell core rules that are deliberately left incomplete, so as to be able to charge people a further $40 for the book with the gnomes and the half-orcs, and another $40 for the book with the druids.  And the buyers will bend over for that too.

And frankly, it pisses me off.  Because I'm expected to be one of those buyers, and I won't be.

So OSRIC is going to buck the whole fucking trend by providing one complete system in one book that's free in .pdf and acceptably cheap in print, that contains enough material for a lifetime of gaming, with the triple pledge that These Are The Core Rules, These Are All The Core Rules, and There Shall Be No Other Core Rules But These.

[/rant]

The availability of free, quality games like OSRIC, LL, and S&W in recent years has been an extremely positive development for the hobby.  Nice work.

Well I dont think I can say anything more than whats been brought up by others. Except, thanks and fuck the haters I like the green.:D

QuoteWell I dont think I can say anything more than whats been brought up by others. Except, thanks and fuck the haters I like the green.  

Reduce your carbon footprint, go green - go OSRIC!

Quote from: P&P;271170That's because role-playing games have this ripoff culture where it's somehow okay to charge $10 for a .pdf and $50 for a hardback book.

$50 = one new video game or 4 movie tickets.   The hours to fun ratio for a good RPG makes $50 an incredibly cheap investment.

If you price adjust the 3 AD&D core books in 1980 to today's market, I doubt they would be any cheaper than the 4e core books.

Quote from: P&P;271170It's also standard practice to sell core rules that are deliberately left incomplete,

I disagree.   The expectation of today's gamers is that the game is considered incomplete until every nook and cranny of the setting or system is explored by the company.   However of the dozens of RPGs on my shelf, none of them truly needs anything beyond the core book and my ability to GM.

Splats sell because fans love them.  

Quote from: P&P;271170And frankly, it pisses me off.  Because I'm expected to be one of those buyers, and I won't be.

Did you buy Unearthed Arcana or Dieties & Demigods for 1e?   Did you buy any of the TSR settings?   This trend ain't new.   Blame Gary.  He started it when he wrote the Greyhawk supplement.

Quote from: Akrasia;271322The availability of free, quality games like OSRIC, LL, and S&W in recent years has been an extremely positive development for the hobby.

The notion that people's hard work should be free is a death-knell for the future.   Why would anyone spend time and money to create something if the fanbase expects it to delivered for nothing?    

And I mean create from scratch.  Not rehash, redo or clone.

RPG writing pays shit and that drives away talent.  Forcing the few remaining companies to compete with free product means there will be very few products that are beyond low grade amateur work in the future since it will be assured that no one will be rewarded for creating quality.

I think:

1) The RPG market pays crap because it's a tiny market and sales numbers are horribly low.
2) The market's tiny and sales numbers are low partly because prices are high and the expectation is to make profit by selling repeatedly to the same people.
3) The industry will never be financially viable with such a small number of people to sell to.
4) There is no way out of this without cutting prices, and
5) OSRIC is my attempt to do this.

QuoteThe notion that people's hard work should be free is a death-knell for the future.   Why would anyone spend time and money to create something if the fanbase expects it to delivered for nothing?    

And I mean create from scratch.  Not rehash, redo or clone.

RPG writing pays shit and that drives away talent.  Forcing the few remaining companies to compete with free product means there will be very few products that are beyond low grade amateur work in the future since it will be assured that no one will be rewarded for creating quality.

You're being silly here.

As you should well know, OD&D, Basic D&D, and AD&D are no longer being supported, and haven't been supported in decades.

By making versions of these games available for free no poor RPG writers are being forced to go hungry.

Instead, these games, along with fanzines like 'Fight On!' and 'Knockspell', have reignited the 'hobbyist' approach to RPGs that had gone out of fashion in recent decades.  This is a healthy and exciting development for the hobby.

When buying stuff, the question to ask is; 'Do I want to write this myself instead and can/should I actually do it?' I'd have to devote years of effort to write just the 4e D&D PHB and I find it a fun game - So I consider the $40 CAD buy-in to play worth it.

On the other hand, I love playing Risus. But I could write up Risus in a day or two, if I wanted to bother. So I wouldn't pay for Risus. Not worth it.

Quote from: Akrasia;271368Instead, these games, along with fanzines like 'Fight On!' and 'Knockspell', have reignited the 'hobbyist' approach to RPGs that had gone out of fashion in recent decades.  This is a healthy and exciting development for the hobby.

I couldn't agree more.  Its an exciting shift.

Quote from: Spinachcat;271363The notion that people's hard work should be free is a death-knell for the future.   Why would anyone spend time and money to create something if the fanbase expects it to delivered for nothing?    

And I mean create from scratch.  Not rehash, redo or clone.

RPG writing pays shit and that drives away talent.  Forcing the few remaining companies to compete with free product means there will be very few products that are beyond low grade amateur work in the future since it will be assured that no one will be rewarded for creating quality.

Well, I don't demand quality for free. I will gladly pay for it. However, the RPG publishing world isn't delivering the quality I am looking for; conversely, I find more of it in free or home-produced materials.

In the current pro freelancing scene, authors are not just paid a pittance, but they are paid on a very low per word basis. This is usually about the same rate H. P. Lovecraft and Robert E. Howard were paid in an age when, according to the Inflation Calculator, the dollar was fifteen times stronger than it is now. An author may turn in the best 16 page supplement ever written, but he would not be compensated for the quality of his product. What he can do is either pad the material to 48 pages for three times the cash, or work more, either burning out or setting the bar lower.

The next problem is work for hire. You don't own the fruits of your labour. For two cents a word, you give up your 'kid' forever, and will probably derive no more profit from it. Whatever happens to it is for the publisher to decide - repackage it, whore out sequels and spinoffs to even cheaper freelancers, whatever... If you are writing highly specific material, you are facing a monopsony - one potential buyer, no recourse if you don't feel like delivering on the proposed terms. Imagine giving the same proposition to a novellist!

Low pay and no creative control -- frankly, it's an appalling prospect; I wouldn't take this sort of career if offered, and I live in a country with much more modest living costs than the US.

On the other side of the coin, I have been buying quite a lot of products from small press outfits (e.g. Expeditious Retreat Press) or directly from the creators (e.g. Geoffrey with Carcosa or Matt Finch with various small products), and I am satisfied with many of them. What matters is that the authors aren't under strain to make a living from game supplements, don't have to be strict with deadlines, and they can afford to adopt a hobbyist perspective to reimbursement. I am not impressed by "industry" "talent"; I am impressed by what I get from Fight On! I am not saying that everything amateur is good, but the dynamics - produce what you like, try to fit as much coolness into a product as your severely limited time allows, work for the fun of creativity and peer recognition - are favourable to the content I value.

Why sustain a business model that doesn't produce what I want, and engages in what I consider unethical practices, especially when there is a more attractive alternative? The only reason I can come up with is promoting networks that may globally benefit gaming through public recognition and whatnot. That, and production values - except I think most game books have dreadfully unimaginative art, and as P&P remarked, are laid out to maximise page count, not to provide value to the customers.

QuoteWell, I don't demand quality for free. I will gladly pay for it. However, the RPG publishing world isn't delivering the quality I am looking for; conversely, I find more of it in free or home-produced materials.

Excellent point. While I can only speak for the old-school D&D stuff, the people writing and publishing free or at cost materials are generally a lot more experienced with their game than the guys selling their stuff.

Speaking personally, as a hobbyist who writes plenty of free material, the act of creation is the most important thing. I LOVE the writing part, and would do it even if no one was around to see the results. I can afford to take my time until I'm satisfied and be proud of the results. If I need an ego-boost, I only have to check my Inbox for the letters from people printing and using the books. I can be sure they do that because they like it and want to use it, and not just because they've already paid for it. At least for me, that's a lot more satisfying than any token monetary reward.

P.S. I gotta brag a little. The administration of my school just approved my proposal for a 2-week winter vacation session in January playing 3 hours of D&D M-F, 8:30-11:30 with 5th and 6th graders. The best part - I'll be getting $1200 for running the Keep on the Borderlands, and the school's picking up the tab for printing 10 copies of Labyrinth Lord. Kinda makes me feel like the proverbial pig in shit.

Quote from: Kellri;271412Speaking personally, as a hobbyist who writes plenty of free material, the act of creation is the most important thing. I LOVE the writing part, and would do it even if no one was around to see the results. I can afford to take my time until I'm satisfied and be proud of the results.

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This is really what it should all be about, anyway. It's nice to get paid, but it's not the point, really. Once it stops being a game and becomes a business things start to slide away. Not to say that there aren't some quality guys out there writing for cash, but usually with newer stuff, in my half-wit fuckstick opinion, 90% of the quality goes into the core book. The chump train usually starts to roll out of the station at supplement time- but even this is not universal. I hardly ever take a chance on supplements though, I've been burned way too often.

There is a huge difference between amateur contributions toward an existing product (such as writing fun add-ons to a retroclone) and innovation.

You can get great work submitted for free as add-ons - new classes, new spells, new monsters, new adventures etc.  This is where the hobbyist concept shines.  I have read Kellri's stuff and if he compiled a Tome of Kellri on PDF/POD, it would no doubt be worth a purchase.

But add-ons are not innovation.   Love it or hate it, capitalism drives innovation.  

As much as I enjoy the add-on hobbyist community (I have stuff in Rifter0 and Fight On and hopefully more in the future), I am concerned that with all the creative energy going into add-ons, there will be less energy put into innovation as the financial incentives diminish.

I believe the potential RPG market is vast.  I have introduced kids to RPGs and their brains explode.  We have a very viable core concept to this hobby.  But the companies keep making stuff for the already existing 30/40/50something fans and the micro-press are equally incestuous.   Without innovation, the hobby won't grow.

Quote from: Spinachcat;271492But the companies keep making stuff for the already existing 30/40/50something fans and the micro-press are equally incestuous.  

I see this comment a lot. Do you mean "companies" or WoTC?

Bill

Quote from: HinterWelt;271498I see this comment a lot. Do you mean "companies" or WoTC?

Bill, you get huge kudos for trying to approach non-gamers with Squirrel Attack.  I hope you will find a way to aggressively mass market the game into something teens and tweens would be able to find at their local bookstore.   Not gamestore.    I mean the bookstore in the mall on the table next to the Harry Potter gift set.

I was stunned to hear about the huge international popularity of young kid's fan fic for stuff like Neo-Pet, Pokemon and Harry Potter.  Its all text based - no gizmos or graphics.   Even 1% of that market would be amazing.

However, I do mean the great mass of RPG companies in regards to the WotC / WW "giants" and the mid-size Palladiums, Steve Jacksons, Paizos, Green Ronins and whoever has Shadowrun this week to the micro-press guys as well.

The Forge/Indie/Swine guys aren't making anything accessible either.   Nobody without an RPG background is going to buy SotC, DitV, Sorcerer or Maid and know WTF to do with it.

Quote from: Spinachcat;271510Bill, you get huge kudos for trying to approach non-gamers with Squirrel Attack.  I hope you will find a way to aggressively mass market the game into something teens and tweens would be able to find at their local bookstore.   Not gamestore.    I mean the bookstore in the mall on the table next to the Harry Potter gift set.

Thanks. I don't know that SA! is the one for kids though. Honestly, I am contemplating Chevalier for that. This is going to be a fantasy game based on the Tales of Charlemagne. It comes out very much as bog standard DND from a setting point of view. I am hoping to combine it with some distribution methods I have seen and put it in B&N and Walden and position it with them a Point of Sale books. Possibly with there own displays. It would be an all in one book with rules, setting and adventure. I am hoping to package and price it like SA! at around $12.99. Unfortunately, box sets would just jump the price through the roof. Oh, and I am thinking about using the new System I am coming up with for Zombipocalypse since it uses all d6s. Anyway, I think it has an even better shot then SA!

Quote from: Spinachcat;271510I was stunned to hear about the huge international popularity of young kid's fan fic for stuff like Neo-Pet, Pokemon and Harry Potter.  Its all text based - no gizmos or graphics.   Even 1% of that market would be amazing.

Mostly those are licensing pains you see there. You have to believe WoTC would love to tap that but Rowling would pop a nut if RPGs get near here precious. Neo-Pet I don't know about but Pokemon I thought they tried and it was made of fail. I could be thinking of another license for RPGs.

Quote from: Spinachcat;271510However, I do mean the great mass of RPG companies in regards to the WotC / WW "giants" and the mid-size Palladiums, Steve Jacksons, Paizos, Green Ronins and whoever has Shadowrun this week to the micro-press guys as well.

The Forge/Indie/Swine guys aren't making anything accessible either.   Nobody without an RPG background is going to buy SotC, DitV, Sorcerer or Maid and know WTF to do with it.

I can only say I think there might be more than you are aware of. Many are absorbed into the Toy and Education side of the industry and many gamers lose track of them (myself included). Stuff like Fuzzy Heroes, Monster Island (? might have the name wrong here) and Army Men all played very well to kids and there was a big push a few years ago at GTS and Gencon for kids games.

That said, I will agree, WoTC and the larger companies don't seem as interested.

Bill

Quote from: Spinachcat;271492But the companies keep making stuff for the already existing 30/40/50something fans and the micro-press are equally incestuous.   Without innovation, the hobby won't grow.

What do you mean by innovation ?

I think for the hobby to grow gamers themselves should introduce gaming to people. I don't put much faith in the "industry" drawing in fresh blood.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Spinachcat;271492Love it or hate it, capitalism drives innovation.  

Rilly? My record collection would disagree.

Quote from: David R;271527What do you mean by innovation ?

A dynamic jump from where we are today.  When RPGs went from fantasy games only to exploring multi-genres, that was a dynamic jump.  It doesn't seem a big deal today, but when CoC and V&V and Champions came out for sale, it shook things up because it wasn't all swords and sorcery anymore.  

When RPGs merged with boardgames and videogames, that was dynamic.  What we need now is an RPG that merges with social networking without the need for a WoW graphical interface.   Something kids can play by iPhone and PSP with each other.

Quote from: David R;271527I think for the hobby to grow gamers themselves should introduce gaming to people. I don't put much faith in the "industry" drawing in fresh blood.

Gamers were great at spreading the disease back when we were in high school and college.   We spread it to our peers.   However, now with the mass at 35-50, we have no effect on the HS and college kids.  As for our own peers, most of us have gamer friends and do little (if any) to spread the game among non-gamers age 35-50.  

We need the industry to create an infectious game for the tweens, teens and college folk so they spread the disease as we did.

Quote from: Pierce Inverarity;271529Rilly? My record collection would disagree.

Then your record collection has Alzheimers.  Time to get some mp3s.  :)

Quote from: Spinachcat;271534A dynamic jump from where we are today.  When RPGs went from fantasy games only to exploring multi-genres, that was a dynamic jump.  It doesn't seem a big deal today, but when CoC and V&V and Champions came out for sale, it shook things up because it wasn't all swords and sorcery anymore.  

I get what you're saying but at the end of the day it's still about S&S. I mean fantasy is what most folks play. I know I'm going to piss some people off (okay maybe not here) but D&D is basically the "hobby". So I get what you're saying about innovation but I just don't see it having such a great impact on the hobby or at least it's not an element that the hobby needs it to survive.

QuoteWhen RPGs merged with boardgames and videogames, that was dynamic.  What we need now is an RPG that merges with social networking without the need for a WoW graphical interface.   Something kids can play by iPhone and PSP with each other.

Would this really help ? I admit I'm pretty out of the whole tech scene but it seems to me one of the great things about rpgs is sitting around the gaming table and interacting with people.

QuoteAs for our own peers, most of us have gamer friends and do little (if any) to spread the game among non-gamers age 35-50.  

True. I think more gamers should spread the game around non-gamers....esp around non-geeks. The thinking seems to be that only a certain kind of person - likes fantasy/SF ...geek stuff basically - would be interested in gaming. This has not been my experience.

QuoteWe need the industry to create an infectious game for the tweens, teens and college folk so they spread the disease as we did.

I dunno, I mean I think that's what they try to do but honestly I can't think of anything that could compete with computer games.....

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Spinachcat;271534Then your record collection has Alzheimers.  Time to get some mp3s.  :)

Same difference. All these freaks make this awesome music and don't get rich. What's up with that? That said, I don't recall Gygax inventing D&D as soon as some venture capitalist handed him enough dough. He just went ahead and did it.

It would be fairer to say not that capitalism produces innovation, but that it encourages elaboration.

Money didn't make Gygax and Arneson create D&D. But it did encourage them to elaborate on it, and make AD&D, adventure modules and so on.

The initial burst of creativity is done just for the sheer joy of it. But if you want that initial product to turn into heaps of other good stuff, you need to add money.

Otherwise your game becomes a MARP - much admired, rarely-played.

I like these sorts of creative efforts, but I don't see a lot of play going on. I mean, this is not so different from stuff we pay a lot for, most of us have games on our shelves we've rarely or never played. But still, I look at the most prominent retro-roleplaying blogs and forums, and they're like the rpg theory blogs and forums - you really don't get the impression there's any play happening there, it's just idling musings.

The purpose of a game is to be played. I'd like to hear more about those games being played, and less about new editions or colours or formats or whatever.

Quote from: Spinachcat;271363Forcing the few remaining companies to compete with free product means there will be very few products that are beyond low grade amateur work in the future since it will be assured that no one will be rewarded for creating quality.

If I want to write game rules and give them away for free I have just as much right to set the price I want ($0) for my product as WOTC does to set the price they want for their products. If these companies don't want to compete with my (or other) free products, that's tough. If the "industry" can't survive amateurs like me giving my product away then the "industry" has a real problem -- and it's not free games from amateurs.

Quote from: Spinachcat;271492There is a huge difference between amateur contributions toward an existing product (such as writing fun add-ons to a retroclone) and innovation.

You can get great work submitted for free as add-ons - new classes, new spells, new monsters, new adventures etc.  This is where the hobbyist concept shines.  I have read Kellri's stuff and if he compiled a Tome of Kellri on PDF/POD, it would no doubt be worth a purchase.

But add-ons are not innovation.   Love it or hate it, capitalism drives innovation.  

As much as I enjoy the add-on hobbyist community (I have stuff in Rifter0 and Fight On and hopefully more in the future), I am concerned that with all the creative energy going into add-ons, there will be less energy put into innovation as the financial incentives diminish.

I believe the potential RPG market is vast.  I have introduced kids to RPGs and their brains explode.  We have a very viable core concept to this hobby.  But the companies keep making stuff for the already existing 30/40/50something fans and the micro-press are equally incestuous.   Without innovation, the hobby won't grow.

I actually think the opposite is true: hobbyists seem to be more likely to create core rules, whereas professionals tend to come out with new stuff for their existing lines.

Quote from: SpinachcatI was stunned to hear about the huge international popularity of young kid's fan fic for stuff like Neo-Pet, Pokemon and Harry Potter. Its all text based - no gizmos or graphics. Even 1% of that market would be amazing.

Here's a thought: would fans of Pokemon and similar franchises like the Esoteric Random Creature Generator?

QuoteI actually think the opposite is true: hobbyists seem to be more likely to create core rules, whereas professionals tend to come out with new stuff for their existing lines.

Over the past couple of years, sure - a lot of hobbyists have been doing core rules out of necessity. It's work that had to be done to set the game rules free, with an eye to allowing many more hobbyists to publish supplements and adventures. There's no commercial line to support, and that's a good thing for gamers. If you're a fan of AD&D, it means you get a broad range of interesting materials from many different sources without worrying that it'll die when the company stops making money or moves on. That seems to scare some "professional" game publishers who can't handle anything that isn't under their tight control.

One burgeoning movement amongst hobbyists now is a tend toward making supplementary material inter-compatible, so that something you read in Knockspell or Fight On! could be applied equally well to LL/OSRIC/S&W etc. For obvious reasons, you'll rarely or never see this kind of thing from commercial publishers. They'd call it 'diluting the line'. Some of them even actively slander, discourage or ban any discussion of other compatible rules, particularly free rules like OSRIC, on their house forums. It's a case of commerce deliberately standing in the way of art purely out of jealousy & an irrational fear of losing revenue.

Here's more food for thought: New supplements and adventures for AD&D have been published every year since the game was first released and have continued long after the game went out of print. PDFs of the OOP products still sell remarkably well, with sales even improving recently. This is a grassroots niche (much like Star Trek fandom) that cannot tolerate a vacuum, and will create for itself even when the IP-owner will not. We're getting to the stage now where the fan-created 'unofficial' material rivals and in some cases exceeds the quality and content of the original 'official' stuff. And that's progress, not nostalgia.

Quote from: Age of Fable;271565Here's a thought: would fans of Pokemon and similar franchises like the Esoteric Random Creature Generator?

It does suggest that a well-done and broadly-marketed Harry Potter RPG would take off...Even if you only get 10% of the fanfiction crowd.

Or so says the 380,928 Harry Potter fanfictions on //www.fanfiction.net.

Or hook the Naruto fanboys - That category has half that number, the only one that comes close.

Of course, first you'd have to *Want* to make those.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;271540I like these sorts of creative efforts, but I don't see a lot of play going on. I mean, this is not so different from stuff we pay a lot for, most of us have games on our shelves we've rarely or never played. But still, I look at the most prominent retro-roleplaying blogs and forums, and they're like the rpg theory blogs and forums - you really don't get the impression there's any play happening there, it's just idling musings.

The purpose of a game is to be played. I'd like to hear more about those games being played, and less about new editions or colours or formats or whatever.

I don't know what you're talking about.  Based on my own experience and what I've read on various fora, these old games and their clones are seeing lots of play.  One of the main reasons is that the rules are so familiar.

Quote from: Spinachcat;271363If you price adjust the 3 AD&D core books in 1980 to today's market, I doubt they would be any cheaper than the 4e core books.

My 1st edition DMG originally cost $15 bucks new, that would amount to almost forty bucks according to this inflation calculator (http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm).  My twelve dollar MM works out to about $31.50.

Quote from: Akrasia;271577I don't know what you're talking about.  

Coincidently, neither does he.