Quote from: estar;891490But there isn't this huge gulf of design philosophy between 5e and classic editions as you are making it out to be. And the amount of potential abilities you can gain with 5e is far more limited compared to 3e or 4e. 5e doesn't sit halfway between classic and 3e/4e. It sits slightly beyond 2e (before Skills and Powers) in terms of flexibility.

Thank you for the input, I recently ran a Myth & Magic game (mashup of 2e as the core with 3e-isma) and I think it is just about right for where I want to be as a DM.  Players have also had alot of fun, although Weapon Proficiencies are an extra layer of crunch that I think I will do away with.

M&M is also in the same design space of 5e (no Skills and Powers, but lots of options turned "on," you also have the option of turning things "off").  I am exploring 5e atm, and hope to be a player a few times before I make the decision on the switch.  Since M&M and 5e are so close conceptually and, maybe, in execution, I might make the switch to 5e as it is readily available and the current lingua franca in the RPG community over here in this Asian country.  I do worry about the general numbers escalation thought: lots of HP, and lots of damage.  Maybe the advantage mechanic balances the number bloat?  

The 5e DMG will be arriving any day now for me.  After peeking at a pdf of it, I think it is right up there with the 1e DMG, Hackmaster 4e GMG which are both masterworks.  The 5e DMG may be more useful at the table and easier on the eyes as well, but that remains to be seen.

Also, I'd be remiss not to link this thread with an explanation of the linked item.  Pretty interesting:

http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=73702&p=1740093#p1740093

Quote from: S'mon;891559I feel like I've stumbled into Bizarro Universe here.

Big time, I haven't the slightest idea what planet he's from. Fireballs/Lightning bolts were plenty common back in the day, and plenty common in PF, and plenty common in 5e.

Heck, I'd say more than half the 5e games I've run have had a Spellshaping Evoker at the table, blasting and blasting away.

I'm not saying status effect save-or-sucks don't come up, but even the Diviner at my table used damaging spells like Disintegrate (naturally, using the uber-power of guaranteeing a monster failed the saving throw--omg, he's-got-the-combo!).

Quote from: Doom;891614Big time, I haven't the slightest idea what planet he's from. Fireballs/Lightning bolts were plenty common back in the day, and plenty common in PF, and plenty common in 5e.

Heck, I'd say more than half the 5e games I've run have had a Spellshaping Evoker at the table, blasting and blasting away.

I'm not saying status effect save-or-sucks don't come up, but even the Diviner at my table used damaging spells like Disintegrate (naturally, using the uber-power of guaranteeing a monster failed the saving throw--omg, he's-got-the-combo!).

Direct damage spells are common in my 5e games, but in my Mentzer Classic D&D game they really dominate - when a 12d6 fireball can crisp a throneroom full of 8 hd hill giants, it'd be crazy not to use them. My son's MU spell loadout these days is typically a bunch of magic missile, lightning bolt & fireball in every available 1st & 3rd level slot, with non-damage spells only in the levels where there aren't good ones. He's got very good at bouncing lighting bolts off the walls at angles to clear rooms of high-hd critters where space doesn't allow fireball; and in really cramped quarters 5 d6+1 magic missiles with no save isn't bad either. Often the main function of the Fighters is to keep monsters away from his very squishy 28 hp, AC 14 MU (I use ascending AC), occasionally to clear up badly wounded survivors from the spell inferno.

Back in the day it was quite common for there to be renegade Red Wizards of Thay double specialized in Evocation/X School in our groups.  Boom Boom BOOM!

I was pointed to this thread from another site.  It was thought that perhaps in light of the thread's topic and discussion, that a book/document I put together would be of interest.  I'll paste what I put there, here.

A few months ago they opened up the ability to make D&D stuff available on a site called DMs Guild. So, I started putting together a document.

It IS for 5e...it uses the 5e rules, and all references in the book are to 5e rulebooks.

HOWEVER, it is trying to recreate the feel of OD&D, BX & BECMI, and AD&D using the 5e rules.

It's basically a toolbox, and bunch of different options to make a 5e game run more like an Old School game. I've tried to be pretty inclusive...though the OD&D feel ONLY includes stuff from the original 3 booklets in what it attempts to do.

The stuff from BECMI and BX really only include stuff from BX and BE (though I did toss in an obligatory nod towards weaponmastry skills).

AD&D covers stuff from UA and OA in regards to what I did. It turned out to be around 192 pages, I put on a Quick Preview and a Full Preview for those who are interested.

I think this is the link to where it's located.

5e Old School and Oriental Adventures

You shouldn't have to pay a red cent to read it or use it (I couldn't figure out how to make it totally free...I guess I'm that tech illiterate...sorry...but you dont' have to pay anything, it's pay what you want..as well as having a free quick preview and free full preview of everything in it).

Artwork is ALL original (not by me) and I think is VERY old school in how it looks (OLD school as in 1975-1978 type old school artwork). It doesn't copy other's art, it's all original, but it's done in a style that tries to replicate the feel of that artwork (and the entire book isn't writing down the old rules, it's about establishing the feel of those games and giving a pick and choose toolbox for those who want to have that feel in their game).

Anyways, this thing is definitely NOT edition specific (as I said, it would cover the feel of OD&D, BX and BECMI, and AD&D) but with the 5e rules. Thought it might fit in the general forum, and hopefully those who would be interested in such a thing will find it useful.

Welcome GreyLord!

I just checked out your houserules pdf at DMsGuild and my, at 192 pages, it is quite the thorough tour through 0e-Be-1/2e ideas for 5e. I scanned it, it's a bit much all at once, but I liked the effort involved. The naive artwork was a nice homage, too.

Quote from: PiebaldWookie;889942Weirdly, skills don't brother me. Their pretty similar to Ability Checks, which are pretty old school, and they don't seem to get too out of hand.

I'm wondering how to handle the Class Archetypes - whether to make one the dominant class path, whether to break the others into specialised training with weird requirements, or whether to just leave them as-is.

The 5e skill method is the most straightforward and old-school of the 3e+ era.

As for class, I'd make sure to keep the class options limited.

I would also get rid of choosing feats apart from the class archetypes.

I would like to point out that the OP may want to remove the stat boosters that each class starts getting at level 4.  There was none of that before 3.x.

If you do keep them, just bear in mind that Fighters will get a lot of stat points, more than any other class.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;892065I would like to point out that the OP may want to remove the stat boosters that each class starts getting at level 4.  There was none of that before 3.x.

If you do keep them, just bear in mind that Fighters will get a lot of stat points, more than any other class.

I think 5e stat bumps are pretty mild compared to 1e Unearthed Arcana PCs with Triple Weapon Specialisation, and the cap at 20 keeps their stats (& bonuses) lower than high level late-1e PCs, too. I definitely don't find in play that high stats are an issue harming an old school feel, if old school includes AD&D percentile STR.

Quote from: S'mon;892096I think 5e stat bumps are pretty mild compared to 1e Unearthed Arcana PCs with Triple Weapon Specialisation, and the cap at 20 keeps their stats (& bonuses) lower than high level late-1e PCs, too. I definitely don't find in play that high stats are an issue harming an old school feel, if old school includes AD&D percentile STR.

Fair enough, I'm just bringing up potential issues that perhaps the OP didn't consider.  Not trying to dissuade them.  And it's not like removing the stat bumps will harm anything in terms of leveling anyway.  Just want to make sure they know, is all.

Seems like this thread has derailed somewhat, from the "OSR-ing 5E" theme to a "is it a good game" debate. I started out with OD&D in the 1970's and have tried every edition of D&D created, and I think that 5E rolls back the clock a lot better than 3E or 4E. Is it perfect, no. Is it exactly like the older editions, no. Is it still a decent game, I think so.

For me, "old school" is more of an attitude than a specific rules mechanic. While I prefer the freewheeling style of OD&D, I think that AD&D is probably more common and easier to emulate with the 5E rules set because both tend to be somewhat specific on what you can and cannot do. OD&D is pretty loose and you'd have to remove most of the 5E rules to scale things back that far.

I think that the best way to "OSR" a game is to limit the overflow of options, so starting with the Basic 5E PDF is a great first step. This removes a bunch of the classes that stretch the boundaries of the game and puts the focus back on the "core four" classes plus the basic fantasy races. I find that 5E has a more old school feel at lower levels, so I'd want to limit my campaign to roughly 7th level. Indeed, a 1st level 5E character has the feel of a 3rd level AD&D character so a level 1-7 5E campaign feels a lot like an AD&D level 3-10 campaign.

I guess if one wanted to nit-pick, one could move through 5E a rule at a time and eliminate stuff. Skills were a 2E thing, feats a 3E thing, so both would technically have to go. I think that 5E still works well with skills and feats because the skill list is so short (compared to 3E/4E) and the feat options are more limited as well. 5E is built with the idea of keeping bonuses under control, which has an old school feel to me, and so much of the core system can stay unchanged.

Oh, and as to the fireball discussion:
(1) We always loaded up on them. Very old school, in my book.
(2) The 5E fireball isn't as cool as you'd think. 8d6 gives around 28 points of damage on the average, and we have some sneak-attack rogues with two weapons doing similar damage each round. The area-effect thing is nice, but the monsters seem to save half the time anyway. Fireball in 5E isn't as cool as it was in older editions, in my experience.

Quote from: finarvyn;892316(2) The 5E fireball isn't as cool as you'd think. 8d6 gives around 28 points of damage on the average, and we have some sneak-attack rogues with two weapons doing similar damage each round. The area-effect thing is nice, but the monsters seem to save half the time anyway. Fireball in 5E isn't as cool as it was in older editions, in my experience.

I find Fireball in 5e works like Fireball in 3e; it doesn't tend to kill creatures that are much of a threat, instead it softens up gangs of mid-threat critters for the warriors to finish off.

Quote from: finarvyn;892316Oh, and as to the fireball discussion:
(1) We always loaded up on them. Very old school, in my book.
(2) The 5E fireball isn't as cool as you'd think. 8d6 gives around 28 points of damage on the average, and we have some sneak-attack rogues with two weapons doing similar damage each round. The area-effect thing is nice, but the monsters seem to save half the time anyway. Fireball in 5E isn't as cool as it was in older editions, in my experience.

Well, the fireball issue is simply one of hit point inflation. In OD&D a fearsome troll had an average of 20-24 hit points. That 28 average damage is looking pretty great now! The 5E Troll with its 84 average hit points just gets mad and charges the wizard.

Old school big gun spells (fireball, lightning bolt, flame strike, etc) used to just take shit OUT. The 5E big guns can only take out the weakest of creatures.

Of course the 5E wizard doesn't need more XP to advance and isn't nearly as fragile as the old school counterpart so it kind of balances out.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;892357Well, the fireball issue is simply one of hit point inflation. In OD&D a fearsome troll had an average of 20-24 hit points. That 28 average damage is looking pretty great now! The 5E Troll with its 84 average hit points just gets mad and charges the wizard.

Old school big gun spells (fireball, lightning bolt, flame strike, etc) used to just take shit OUT. The 5E big guns can only take out the weakest of creatures.

Of course the 5E wizard doesn't need more XP to advance and isn't nearly as fragile as the old school counterpart so it kind of balances out.

True!  Looks like you can add some oomph to it by spending higher slots, but, by that time, the targets are tougher. Casting it at 9th level would be another 6 dice, I think, so, 14d6 (if I read it right), if you blow a slot that high (I can't see that anyone actually would, however, considering that you'd have Meteor Swarm (20d6 fire, 20d6 bludgeoning, twice the radius).