There was a time on TBP that got me glared at badly by the mods there. What did I do to justify that? I accused the long time developer of Werewolf: The Apocalypse of basically writing an equivilent to FATAL.
Kinfolk: Unsung Heroes showed that the Garou put their kinfolk into forced breeding camps to keep their family lines line "pure". And that they committed all manner of atrocity to those Kinfolk. In addition to what atrocities that the Garou participated in everyday.
You see. Much of the design of the Garou was based on some of the most vile inhuman tactics supposedly expoused by various extremist supremesist movements. Straight from their playbook. The most disgusting, horrible, and inhuman imaginable.
I felt justified in my accusation. And I still do to this day. What they did was no different from what the authors of FATAL did. So yes. I was exposing their hypocrisy.
You see. I grew up around certain ethnic supremesist groups. That expoused forcing relatives into forced breeding camps. To keep their family lines "pure". So I recognized the doctrines that the authors of Werewolf: The Apocalypse drew the most disgusting and reprehensible of the Garou's tactics from. And I am not proud of that knowledge. I'm as horrified and sickened by that behavior now as I was when I was first exposed to that doctrine.
I feel I have been harassed and singled out by the mods of TBP because I called out those authors for glorifying those horrible subjects. To this very day, I feel I have been meeting stronger penalties than anyone else when I post something the mods there take a dislike to.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1090018I feel I have been harassed and singled out by the mods of TBP because I called out those authors for glorifying those horrible subjects. To this very day, I feel I have been meeting stronger penalties than anyone else when I post something the mods there take a dislike to.
I'm not familiar with the game. How would you say it glorified those aspects?
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1090025I'm not familiar with the game. How would you say it glorified those aspects?
It treated them as a routine part of Garou life. Something none of them. No matter what Tribe. Would hesitate one second about inflicting on their kin.
Treating something so ugly as routine is to glorify it. To display it as culturally acceptable. In my opinion.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1090018There was a time on TBP that got me glared at badly by the mods there. What did I do to justify that? I accused the long time developer of Werewolf: The Apocalypse of basically writing an equivilent to FATAL.
Kinfolk: Unsung Heroes showed that the Garou put their kinfolk into forced breeding camps to keep their family lines line "pure". And that they committed all manner of atrocity to those Kinfolk. In addition to what atrocities that the Garou participated in everyday.
You see. Much of the design of the Garou was based on some of the most vile inhuman tactics supposedly expoused by various extremist supremesist movements. Straight from their playbook. The most disgusting, horrible, and inhuman imaginable.
I felt justified in my accusation. And I still do to this day. What they did was no different from what the authors of FATAL did. So yes. I was exposing their hypocrisy.
You see. I grew up around certain ethnic supremesist groups. That expoused forcing relatives into forced breeding camps. To keep their family lines "pure". So I recognized the doctrines that the authors of Werewolf: The Apocalypse drew the most disgusting and reprehensible of the Garou's tactics from. And I am not proud of that knowledge. I'm as horrified and sickened by that behavior now as I was when I was first exposed to that doctrine.
I feel I have been harassed and singled out by the mods of TBP because I called out those authors for glorifying those horrible subjects. To this very day, I feel I have been meeting stronger penalties than anyone else when I post something the mods there take a dislike to.
okay a few things here...
1) Let's not confuse FICTIONAL GAMING with advocacy of ANY STRIPE.
2) The Mods are TBP *are* idiots.
3) They treat you worse than what? Some of us are *permabanned* for saying far less than this LOL.
That said... I'm interested in your justifications that FATAL <> Werewolf the Apocalypse.
And I'm more than happy to get out my trident, and slap on my horns and lawyers suit to play advocate general for his Infernal Majesty.
BY the conceits of the setting - Werewolf the Apocalypse *is* about the world being raped into oblivion physically, metaphysically, and any other way between/outside those two poles. There is *abominable* shit in Werewolf, by design. They are fighting the most hopeless and grotesque war within and without. They're nearly uncontrollable murder-machines that at one point spent *thousands* of years eating PEOPLE.
That you grew up around people with such siege mentalities is lamentable for sure. But surely you can see how a fictional group of monsters fighting evil often by being evil, there would be overlap in those tactics? I mean... the Garou in Werewolf (depending on your tribe) *are* into breed-purity. That *is* one of the conceits of the game. It's a freakin stat.
So aside from how the shitty Mods at TBP treat you - they treat *everyone* like dogshit. The conceits of Werewolf are pretty much just kinda obvious. Don't you think this sounds a little bit like Doc Sammy's rants from the other side of the coin?
Edit: I also confess that I don't look at FATAL as an actual game. I look at it and laugh my ass off.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1090027It treated them as a routine part of Garou life. Something none of them. No matter what Tribe. Would hesitate one second about inflicting on their kin.
Treating something so ugly as routine is to glorify it. To display it as culturally acceptable. In my opinion.
Okay I'm going to have to take a look at my copy... so don't hold me to my next opinion... because it's been years since I looked at it...
BUT... as I recall, the Garou *do* look at themselves, generally speaking, as a different species. Though I'm pretty sure the Tribes treat their kinfolk differently. Culturally acceptable to mistreat them, I guess from a human standpoint... but if you're a Garou that historically, predated upon humans for *thousands of years* - I suspect the "feel" is they treat their Kinfolk like useful cattle at worst.
They *do* need their kinfolk after all.
Edit: yeah it says right here at the beginning: kinfolk occupy a range of positions in Garou society from beloved mates and siblings to to little more than breeding stock and grunt soldiers in the war against the Wyrm.
From the Garou perspective those positions vary wildly depending on the tribe. In fact in the book/game there are some HUGE downsides to mistreating your kinfolk as a general practice... namely you're less likely to get more Garou.
One could argue that the goals of the creators were markedly different. The FATAL authors were excitedly puerile in their descriptions, discussion of the game and online presence (IIRC). The rape fantasies in FATAL were baked in and glaringly white-hetero ignorance fueled. (Look mom! Rape Culture!)
I can't speak for the Werewolf authors, but there could be a compelling reason to explore these themes. Especially if you are into body horror/mutant horror like The Hills Have Eyes. If the goal was to create a game that terrifies the participants, the genre is certainly a valid horror genre.
I could also see the Werewolf authors having some contempt for the FATAL authors for this very reason. It's much different to create something as an homage to a genre vs. the whole "girls should be subservient to men and do everything I want and have sex at my command so let's make a game where I can fantasize about that."
In both cases however, I believe the fantasies are harmless. Having kinky fantasies about rape is actually common; after reading some erotic fantasy... most of these fantasties bear little resemblance to the violence of actual rape. They are more quid-pro-quo, BDSM or Hard Choices vs. aggravated assault. Legally and morally they are easily "wrong" in any assessment of the acts but I think people are willing to look past that for something that exists only in their imagination. Afterall, the taboo nature of the fiction is part of the turn-on.
It's unfortunate that people are so fucking cruel and critical of each other. The RPG space has become a minefield of butthurt and outrage. Both these works should be able to exist and be played/patronized by those who appreciate them. For those who don't? It is EASY to find anything else you might want...
I simply think this. The reason why the werewolves are losing the war is simply because they are just too stupid to live.
Quote from: Snowman0147;1090033I simply think this. The reason why the werewolves are losing the war is simply because they are just too stupid to live.
yep. I think this is portrayed pretty much throughout the game including in the Kinfolk book, (who in my opinion have it even more fucked up because they're potentially aware of all the actual horrors the Garou face and can do far less than their furry cousins). The Werewolf tribes fucked up from the get-go in their history. They're going to lose. The whole point of the game is to fight the inevitable and *maybe* you can make a difference.
How you go about doing that - is the game.
Forgive me for my ignorance, but it's a bunch of monsters doing monstrous things?
(I realize World of Darkness is about anti-heroic monsters, but they're still monsters right?)
Yeah wasn't there a time when some one made a npc werewolf that was trying to go into environmental technologies and working with humans to make a world a better place? If my memory is right I think the werewolf players booed that out and called it immature. If my memory is correct that is.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1090037Forgive me for my ignorance, but it's a bunch of monsters doing monstrous things?
(I realize World of Darkness is about anti-heroic monsters, but they're still monsters right?)
Yep. It's all very contextual of course. But the original WoD games generally were pretty good at setting the tone of what was expected. At no point after first contact with Werewolf the Apocalypse- even with their "nice tribes" did I *ever* not realize that the Garou were horrifying killing machines. That's what I liked about it.
If you wanna play sexytime-killers - you can play Vampire. If you want to go full-blown "the world is ending and we're going to slaughtercate our foes with wild-abandon on the way down every single night... Werewolf is your ticket to ride. I think the sobering aspects of Werewolf, all gore-porn aside, are the metaphysical aspects of the game that really contrasts the hyperviolent conceits of the game.
Quote from: Snowman0147;1090038Yeah wasn't there a time when some one made a npc werewolf that was trying to go into environmental technologies and working with humans to make a world a better place? If my memory is right I think the werewolf players booed that out and called it immature. If my memory is correct that is.
Yeah but there are tons of stupid NPC's in all the WoD splats. It makes sense for there to be some tree-hugging vegetarian Garou that is in the Green Party, playing hackey-sack and smelling like patchouli... but the game makes fun of that via the opinions of the other tribes.
Because clearly that kinda shit ain't going down in the Shadow Lord, Get of Fenris, tribes. Hell most of the other Tribes outside of the Hippies of Gaia.
Quote from: tenbones;1090029okay a few things here...
1) Let's not confuse FICTIONAL GAMING with advocacy of ANY STRIPE.
Pretty much this.
And it's true Garou is an horror game about furry humans doing ultra-violent things to unspeakably vicious abominations intent of defiling the world. There are no ways to keep your paws clean in this game.
And it's a blast to play when you want to blow off some steam.
Besides that, the Garou society is painted as a tribal world united by a common cause. Tribal in the sense of "I live by the rules of
my tribe, and you live by the rules of
your tribe. My Tribe is the
best tribe, so if your Tribe tells you to do moronic things like mistreating your Kinfolk, it's because yours is a Tribe of morons. As long as you fight our common adversary, I don't care. Be a pack of morons !"
Incidentally, our ancestors have lived a long time in this tribal fashion, and it even worked for them (or we wouldn't be there, would we ? :-).
And I thought I had major hangups with the World of Darkness....
The ironic part of this is that now the RPGnet commissars would hate on Teletubbies if it had the White Wolf logo on it but stuff from Onyx Path is fine and dandy in their eyes, because their fucked up shit is "woke" and not "edgy" or "fun"
Darrin, do yourself a favor and do NOT read Beast: The Primordial.
It's a game where you play as abusive SJW predators and it was written by Matthew "Black Hat Matt" MacFarland and David "Olivia" Hill, both are Neo-Communists and violent fanatics.
"Black Hat Matt" is a notorious pedophile/ephebophile who has raped multiple women (mostly minors) while David "Olivia" Hill is a disgusting autogynephile and an identity opportunist who has expressed abhorrent Anarcho-Communist views as well as Anti-American and Anti-Japanese statements (despite being an American citizen living in Japan) and Hill is also a notorious racist left-wing bigot who has made heinous racist statements against Whites, Japanese, South Koreans, and Jews.
These are the people that RPGnet consider to be heroic, and neither of them were banned until things got so bad that they became a liability. RPGnet and Onyx Path covered up Black Hat Matt's sexual predator bullshit for years and David "Olivia" Hill only got banned because his crusade against Nu-White Wolf led to him doxing Matthew Dawkins (who is also a leftist but is a decent human being) simply because he dared to go work with a "problematic" company.
From what I understand, RPGnet only banned Hill because his actions were so out of hand that they possibly threatened Onyx Path's licensing deals with Paradox and so RPGnet had to cover their asses.
Doc Sammy,
I was a follower of Chill 3rd Edition. And I was actually a backer of the Undead Sourcebook when the stuff about Matt went public.
I posted to TBP that I was having moral issues. And would be backing away from Growling Door Games because of that stuff coming out. And I got all claws out shredded by a TBP mod for it. Because they were friends with both of the MacFarlands. And no, I never got an apology for it. Because the TBP mods are that self-righteous.
And don't worry. I have no interest in picking up or looking at anything else to come from any version of White Wolf or Onyx Path. They burnt their bridges with me a long time ago.
Yeah they burnt their bridges so damn much I am making my own game called Adventures of the Weird. Trying to get play testers for that so if your interested pm me please. Now I cannot promise you it will be exactly like World of Darkness, but it will be something interesting.
Another recent issue I had with TBP? I was threadbanned and straight up threatened by a mod for expressing an opinion they didn't like. But didn't actually violate any of their rules.
I put forth the opinion of: Why would Nu-White Wolf want to give the Original World Of Darkness back to Onyx Path? When the whole of Onyx Path were the ones who ended that game line in the first place. And I expressed my opposition to them doing so. Especially since it was Onyx Path who led a crusade against Nu-White Wolf producing Vampire 5th Edition in the first place.
TBP has become big about punishing people for opinions they don't like.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1090045TBP has become big about punishing people for opinions they don't like.
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Honestly, I think you're projecting. I used to play WtA pretty regularly back in the day. Admittedly, this was 20+ years ago, so my recollection might be a little hazy, but I don't recall the kind of forced breeding camps you describe being part of the schtick. Considering that Garou + Garou mating produces a sterile Metis, which is generally frowned upon, all Garou are of mixed heritage to some extent.
It is true that SOME tribes are very big on bloodline, and the degree of Garou purity can affect things in game, but generally this was treated as more along the line of aristocratic blood-lines than eugenic breeding programs. Most tribes didn't care, and some were actively against the old bloodlines.
The only tribes I can think of off the top of my head that might have particular opinions on the matter are:
Silver Fangs: Old blood aristocrats, but forced breeding programs doesn't fit their M.O.
Shadow Lords: Machiavellian programs certainly fit, but I don't recall them giving a shit about blood purity generally
Red Talons: Wolves only (no human kinfolk), but Garou purity not a factor
Bonegnawers: Gutter trash and mutts by definition.
Get of Fenris: Possible Northern European ethnic exclusion in kinfolk, but Garou purity not really a factor
None of this was a really big part of the game. I mean, you certainly COULD choose to focus on it, but it was presented as background material that might function as a kind of B-story to the main plot line of fighting against the forces of global decay generated by the Wyrm and the corrupted Weaver.
Edit: I don't know anything about TBP and I'm sorry you were banned. I don't agree with your take on WtA, but you're certainly entitled to express your opinion.
No one really denies that the Garou are fucked up in their behavior towards Kin. That doesn't make Skemp (who I assume you were directing your comment to a skeever). Hell Forsaken included commentary on that same situation in that the Pure Tribes were based off of the most extreme parts of the Garou Nation, and were explicitly the baddies.
Quote from: Brendan;1090048Honestly, I think you're projecting. I used to play WtA pretty regularly back in the day. Admittedly, this was 20+ years ago, so my recollection might be a little hazy, but I don't recall the kind of forced breeding camps you describe being part of the schtick. Considering that Garou + Garou mating produces a sterile Metis, which is generally frowned upon, all Garou are of mixed heritage to some extent.
It is true that SOME tribes are very big on bloodline, and the degree of Garou purity can affect things in game, but generally this was treated as more along the line of aristocratic blood-lines than eugenic breeding programs. Most tribes didn't care, and some were actively against the old bloodlines.
The only tribes I can think of off the top of my head that might have particular opinions on the matter are:
Silver Fangs: Old blood aristocrats, but forced breeding programs doesn't fit their M.O.
Shadow Lords: Machiavellian programs certainly fit, but I don't recall them giving a shit about blood purity generally
Red Talons: Wolves only (no human kinfolk), but Garou purity not a factor
Bonegnawers: Gutter trash and mutts by definition.
Get of Fenris: Possible Northern European ethnic exclusion in kinfolk, but Garou purity not really a factor
None of this was a really big part of the game. I mean, you certainly COULD choose to focus on it, but it was presented as background material that might function as a kind of B-story to the main plot line of fighting against the forces of global decay generated by the Wyrm and the corrupted Weaver.
Edit: I don't know anything about TBP and I'm sorry you were banned. I don't agree with your take on WtA, but you're certainly entitled to express your opinion.
Kinfolk: Unsung Heroes is the name of the book in which it is all laid out. I owned said book. And many of the people here who are still WtA fans still own that book. It was the most graphic and reprehensible illustration of how the Garou treated their kin that I had ever seen hit print. They had literal rape camps.
I'm not calling anyone bad for liking that game. I used to. But that book? Sort of burnt the bridges for me. I like to RP happy things. Not get mired in aspects of real life I game to escape.
Bad, nasty, depressing, and icky doesn't mean a game is mature. In my opinion. And I believe that White Wolf/Onyx Path is full of anything but maturity.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1090018I felt justified in my accusation. And I still do to this day. What they did was no different from what the authors of FATAL did. So yes. I was exposing their hypocrisy.
You see. I grew up around certain ethnic supremesist groups. That expoused forcing relatives into forced breeding camps. To keep their family lines "pure". So I recognized the doctrines that the authors of Werewolf: The Apocalypse drew the most disgusting and reprehensible of the Garou's tactics from. And I am not proud of that knowledge. I'm as horrified and sickened by that behavior now as I was when I was first exposed to that doctrine.
I feel I have been harassed and singled out by the mods of TBP because I called out those authors for glorifying those horrible subjects. To this very day, I feel I have been meeting stronger penalties than anyone else when I post something the mods there take a dislike to.
Well that is the hilarious thing about the Werewolf setting. like 90% of these so called noble defenders are also some of the most bigoted, racist, supremacist, isolationist, hatemongering, genociding, nuts on the planet and are actually part of the reason the WOD is so fucked up in the first place. And then the Nuwisha turned around and screwed it up even more.
And that may be part of the point. These are monsters fighting monsters and doing monster things. It is a purely player fabrication that werewolves are noble or good. They seem to be competing with the Vampires to see who can debase themselves more.
Keep in mind that WW lives on this stuff. Clandestine groups, conspiracies, and a death spiral of their own creation.
Quote from: Omega;1090053like 90% of these so called noble defenders are also some of the most bigoted, racist, supremacist, isolationist, hatemongering, genociding, nuts on the planet
I see we're talking about the moderators on RPGnet again... oh, wait... my mistake.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1090027It treated them as a routine part of Garou life. Something none of them. No matter what Tribe. Would hesitate one second about inflicting on their kin.
Treating something so ugly as routine is to glorify it. To display it as culturally acceptable. In my opinion.
Not really. It can be an indicator that a group or society has fallen and in the Garou case, fallen hard.
Also note that not all do these things and depending on the group some would be appalled by these acts against kin. Black Furies and Get of Fenris are obviously meant to be over the top nuts who will commit any act in the name of "the war!". With the Uktena close behind with an added dose of incessant bitching about how the europeans acted when they themselves are no better. Garou are meant to be hypocrisy.
But making a bad thing routine in no way automatically glorifies it. It can be a powerful tool to show how bad things are.
Non Werewolf example: In Albedo the ILR is a combination of Fascist Germany and Communist China. Racist, expansionistic, totalitarian, and everything else bad about such societies. Any non-lapines on planets they take over are either executed, or shipped off to concentration planets. As are any lapine citizens that resist being indoctrinated into the ILR. This in no way at all glorifies these sorts of acts just because they are part of the setting and routine. The PCs are expected to resist, fight and push back this threat and be vigilant for attempts by the ambitious to start the same within the EDF. And on some EDF planets workers were kept in effectively perpetual indentured slavery by keeping supply prices so high no one could afford to get out of working in the mines and quarries. This on top of some other underhanded political intrigue going on that the PCs may have to deal with.
Get out there and fight it!
Quote from: Snowman0147;1090033I simply think this. The reason why the werewolves are losing the war is simply because they are just too stupid to live.
Oh so very very true. And this is brought up on the various books just how spectacularly the Garou fucked things up. Are fucking things up. Will fuck things up.
Quote from: Snowman0147;1090038Yeah wasn't there a time when some one made a npc werewolf that was trying to go into environmental technologies and working with humans to make a world a better place? If my memory is right I think the werewolf players booed that out and called it immature. If my memory is correct that is.
Pretty sure its in the books too that some have tried or are trying. Usually the other woof nuts kill them or... fuck it up... because thats all they seem capable of doing on a larger scale.
I'm going to bring up the glorifacation angle again. Because I have a point I want to make in doing so.
In Werewolf: The Apocalypse, you aren't playing something with a human point of view. You are playing a monster who has its own societal mores and traditions. And most of the books in that game line are written from the Garou point of view. Including Kinfolk: Unsung Heroes.
By the point of view of the Garou, the things they do to their kinfolk is correct and absolutely justified. So it is written with a strong inference that the Kinfolk are perfectly justified sacrifices for the cause. That anything the Garou does to them is pretty much fair game. Kinfolk: Unsung Heroes is a propoganda piece that straight up glorifies to the Garou what they are doing.
By human standards? What they do is inhumane and disgusting.
But yes, the glorifacation angle is very much present.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1090058But yes, the glorifacation angle is very much present.
While I agree with you on other points in this. This os one I do not. Overall in the books this stuff, and especially the Kin book its depicted as just how far off the deep end some of the Garou have swan dived themselvs.
And keep in mind that not all are doing these things. As noted above. Some would detest such acts as undermining the whole effort and try to curb or stop it if they find out. And again theres that WW love of conspiracies as the PCs or NPCs are likely going to have to dig to uncover these skeletons in the closet. Then decide what to do about it?
So again this is not 'glorifying' anything. It oft comes across as the exact opposite.
I'm a fan of the original Werewolf 1e. Never read anything beyond the original books, so I can't comment on whatever came later.
I get that the Garou are monsters doing monstrous stuff, but they're up against the end of the world. The rules of morality don't stand a chance when faced with oblivion. It's the same reason I don't see the Coalition as villains in Rifts. The Garou are killing machines, but the world itself is dying and nobody else except the wolves can possibly stop the onslaught.
Eggs are gonna get broken to make that omelet.
Quote from: Snowman0147;1090038Yeah wasn't there a time when some one made a npc werewolf that was trying to go into environmental technologies and working with humans to make a world a better place? If my memory is right I think the werewolf players booed that out and called it immature. If my memory is correct that is.
IIRC, It was a member of the GlassWalker tribe who was working to promote Green Tech to her corporate clients by showing how it could mean profit that waa presented Changeling the Dream which also had Red Talon (perhaps most violently anti-human tribes) that went into the dreaded city to learn if they (humans/cities) were as hideously corrupt and vile as her elders taught and was having a change of attitude. She was going so far as having her journey and the lessons learned preserved on her body as tattoos. I don't know if they were presented elsewhere.
The Garou's xenophobia and dogmatic attitude and resistance to change, arrogance and over reliance on the brute force method always appeared to be presented as failing of the species that have likely doomed them (and by extension the world). They have nearly exterminated other Shifters in their Rage and drive toward purity. But they are too hidebound to do much except double down on their mistakes aside from some individuals and some tribes that lean in a more open direction (Children of Gaia, Glasswalkers...) but they suffer socially for their attitude.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1090018There was a time on TBP that got me glared at badly by the mods there. What did I do to justify that? I accused the long time developer of Werewolf: The Apocalypse of basically writing an equivilent to FATAL.
Kinfolk: Unsung Heroes showed that the Garou put their kinfolk into forced breeding camps to keep their family lines line "pure". And that they committed all manner of atrocity to those Kinfolk. In addition to what atrocities that the Garou participated in everyday.
You see. Much of the design of the Garou was based on some of the most vile inhuman tactics supposedly expoused by various extremist supremesist movements. Straight from their playbook. The most disgusting, horrible, and inhuman imaginable.
I felt justified in my accusation. And I still do to this day. What they did was no different from what the authors of FATAL did. So yes. I was exposing their hypocrisy.
You see. I grew up around certain ethnic supremesist groups. That expoused forcing relatives into forced breeding camps. To keep their family lines "pure". So I recognized the doctrines that the authors of Werewolf: The Apocalypse drew the most disgusting and reprehensible of the Garou's tactics from. And I am not proud of that knowledge. I'm as horrified and sickened by that behavior now as I was when I was first exposed to that doctrine.
I feel I have been harassed and singled out by the mods of TBP because I called out those authors for glorifying those horrible subjects. To this very day, I feel I have been meeting stronger penalties than anyone else when I post something the mods there take a dislike to.
I never thought the Garou were meant to be really "good". I mean, these guys are werewolves. Sure, you play them. But it was the world of darkness. They were pretty fucked up protagonists and the tribes did messed up things. If a human did something that offended the tribe, they might eat that person. Sure, it was "against the litany" and there were rules that the Garou shouldn't do it, but the offender might just get a slap on wrist. "Bad Dark Claw! You shouldn't have eaten John Smith for working for that nuclear power plant. Now you're on patrol duty at the sept for a month... and uh... say three prayers to Gaia, and make a sacrifice to Coyote too. No more eating humans! Bad!"
Anyway, most of Garou thought humans were messing up the earth, so killing them was no big deal. Eating them- sure against the rules. Breeding them the way they wanted to keep the bloodlines pure-and also make sure more werewolves are born- the Garou wouldn't even think twice, imo.
Also. The mods at rpg.net are idiots.
A lot of fiction is pretty reprehensible, if examined without the suspension of disbelief lens.
The CW show Arrow is basically Dexter with costumes and a firm conviction they're really good people (they're not). Even the "heroes" of the much more upbeat and supposedly not gray Flash literally ran their own private Gitmo. You can do that to nearly any piece of fiction, because when genre tendencies become tropes they stop being examined, and people just take things as they're presented instead of interpreting actions and events using their own moral code.
And something like Werewolf goes even further, because it's misery writing. It's not just the garou who rage against the world after all, it's also the authors. They're exploring terrible things, and it's really easy to slip and forget the boundaries. So all kinds of skeevy shit gets written. And it's easy for both the writers and the readers to overlook what's actually being said, and the consequences, because we read and read and create fiction using dream logic as much as real world logic. We express ourselves and enjoy fantasy via symbols and familiar conventions, which are not the same standards we apply when something happens to us, or we read something in the news. And that's especially true in areas like the everyday life of a secondary set of characters who are not PCs. They're basically part of the background set, and not the dynamic being focused on during the game, so it can persist indefinitely without comment and self reflection.
tl;dr Don't read too much into it. The way we process fiction doesn't necessarily reflect the moral stances we hold in real life.
Quote from: Pat;1090123[...] The way we process fiction doesn't necessarily reflect the moral stances we hold in real life.
So much this.
What is strange is that some people seem unable to understand this. Hence they are readily on the side of censorship.
World of Darkness has a lot of crazy shit like that. I think it was originally supposed to be satirical, but nowadays I cannot tell. One of the reasons I left the fandom years ago was because a disturbingly high number of the people I talked with supported the in-universe atrocity without recognizing that it was an atrocity.
Not every fan held these views. Glasswalker fanboys consistently criticized the werewolves for terrorism when it would be more effective to subvert the bureaucracy from within.
At this point in the real world, more people than ever are aware of the dangers of pollution and want clean energy. Millions of people are suffering the effects of pollution, know about it, and want to stop it. It just doesn't make sense for World of Darkness to keep advancing the "evil technology/pollution will destroy the world" narrative when so many are trying to stop precisely that.
Not that I particularly like World of Darkness as a setting anyway because of its suffocating monomyth and high school cliques. All werewolves are children of Gaia or Father Wolf, all mages are Hindu avatars or Atlanteans, blah blah blah.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1090415Not that I particularly like World of Darkness as a setting anyway because of its suffocating monomyth and high school cliques. All werewolves are children of Gaia or Father Wolf, all mages are Hindu avatars or Atlanteans, blah blah blah.
Atlantean is New World of Darkness and Hindu Avatars only turn up in old Mage (outside of technical jargon akin to calling wizard magic "arcane" vs. "occult" vs. "eldritch") if you believe in them (ex. the Technocracy doesn't and instead has the concept of Genius; your inner spark of creativity and drive).
Mages in the Old World of Darkness were "Belief Creates Reality" style magic where Mages had sufficient belief to outweigh the collective belief of humanity. The specific flavor of belief didn't matter. It could be in superscience or belief in God's miraculous action in the world or even popular occultism (one paradigm of belief was literally "money makes the world move and everyone has a price.").
The more out of line with the collective beliefs of humanity, the harder and more dangerous it is to make your belief a reality (and note that in this case "things fall down" is a nearly universal belief regardless of the specifics... so that's what you're fighting if you believe you can fly... not belief in gravity specifically).
But if you push hard enough and repeat it enough you can change those collective beliefs. In Mage, The Wright Brothers were mages who finally changed the collective belief that flight was impossible. The group of Mages called the Technocracy is entirely based on the idea of pushing their paradigm on the world through such incremental steps (their prototypes are buggy messes because the collective beliefs are against it, but they keep pushing and eventually it becomes acceptable and then just a normal part of reality.
Sorry, big Mage the Ascension fan. It's the only part of the WoD I've ever had any interest in... precisely because the characters are actually humans, not monsters with uncontrollable urges. They aren't fighting to maintain their humanity or against their rage. Their only supernatural attributes are Arete (their supernatural strength of belief) and the Spheres (their understanding of various aspects of reality like forces or matter or time that they can affect with their belief). Otherwise, they're just humans (vs. vampires and werewolves who have special rules for things like sunlight, virtues/humanity or silver, rage and its effect on your social attributes, stepping sideways, etc.).
Quote from: Chris24601;1090423Atlantean is New World of Darkness and Hindu Avatars only turn up in old Mage (outside of technical jargon akin to calling wizard magic "arcane" vs. "occult" vs. "eldritch") if you believe in them (ex. the Technocracy doesn't and instead has the concept of Genius; your inner spark of creativity and drive).
Mages in the Old World of Darkness were "Belief Creates Reality" style magic where Mages had sufficient belief to outweigh the collective belief of humanity. The specific flavor of belief didn't matter. It could be in superscience or belief in God's miraculous action in the world or even popular occultism (one paradigm of belief was literally "money makes the world move and everyone has a price.").
The more out of line with the collective beliefs of humanity, the harder and more dangerous it is to make your belief a reality (and note that in this case "things fall down" is a nearly universal belief regardless of the specifics... so that's what you're fighting if you believe you can fly... not belief in gravity specifically).
But if you push hard enough and repeat it enough you can change those collective beliefs. In Mage, The Wright Brothers were mages who finally changed the collective belief that flight was impossible. The group of Mages called the Technocracy is entirely based on the idea of pushing their paradigm on the world through such incremental steps (their prototypes are buggy messes because the collective beliefs are against it, but they keep pushing and eventually it becomes acceptable and then just a normal part of reality.
Sorry, big Mage the Ascension fan. It's the only part of the WoD I've ever had any interest in... precisely because the characters are actually humans, not monsters with uncontrollable urges. They aren't fighting to maintain their humanity or against their rage. Their only supernatural attributes are Arete (their supernatural strength of belief) and the Spheres (their understanding of various aspects of reality like forces or matter or time that they can affect with their belief). Otherwise, they're just humans (vs. vampires and werewolves who have special rules for things like sunlight, virtues/humanity or silver, rage and its effect on your social attributes, stepping sideways, etc.).
Yeah, great.
Mage the Awakening has something vaguely similar, except that instead of magic changing the consensus that magic becomes more difficult in the future. Death mages used to be able to raise the dead, but because Yeshua ran around raising people it is impossible by the modern day outside of archmastery level of proficiency. Or at least that was implied by one of the books at some point, there are too many writers for there to be that much consistency regarding how the metaphysics work.
I am definitely not a fan due to the high school cliques, SJW politics, rampant ethnocentrism, Luddites, metaphysical arguments about process- and result-based determinism, the purple paradigm hypocrisy, and the generally incoherent everything.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1090092I'm a fan of the original Werewolf 1e. Never read anything beyond the original books, so I can't comment on whatever came later.
I get that the Garou are monsters doing monstrous stuff, but they're up against the end of the world. The rules of morality don't stand a chance when faced with oblivion. It's the same reason I don't see the Coalition as villains in Rifts. The Garou are killing machines, but the world itself is dying and nobody else except the wolves can possibly stop the onslaught.
Eggs are gonna get broken to make that omelet.
Except that what little good the coalition does is then undone by all the horrible things they do in the name of "protecting you". This isnt 40k where the Imperium really does have to be that oppressive to keep idiots from sucking whole planets into the chaos, or worse. While still doing horrible things to keep the whole thing running. And progressively failing as its an untenable method.
There is absolutely no reason for the Garou to treat kin badly. Some sure as hell do. But not all. There is no reason for the Garou to slaughter innocent bystanders just to kill one horror. They do it because they dont care and they cant see how much its damaging them. And thats in even the core books. This is a mess of their own making. Their own absolute arrogance. And even in that, if I recall right, not all participated and it was the usual suspects of the Get, Furies and a few others who were the ring leaders.
Garou arent killing machines. They are morons.
Quote from: CarlD.;1090109IIRC, It was a member of the GlassWalker tribe who was working to promote Green Tech to her corporate clients by showing how it could mean profit that waa presented Changeling the Dream which also had Red Talon (perhaps most violently anti-human tribes) that went into the dreaded city to learn if they (humans/cities) were as hideously corrupt and vile as her elders taught and was having a change of attitude. She was going so far as having her journey and the lessons learned preserved on her body as tattoos. I don't know if they were presented elsewhere.
The Garou's xenophobia and dogmatic attitude and resistance to change, arrogance and over reliance on the brute force method always appeared to be presented as failing of the species that have likely doomed them (and by extension the world).
I recall those two as well. Just not sure where. Think theres been one or two others along the way as well.
Pretty much this. WOD is a hell of their own making. With a great big push by the coyotes. And boy did they make it well.
Quote from: Chris24601;1090423Sorry, big Mage the Ascension fan. It's the only part of the WoD I've ever had any interest in... precisely because the characters are actually humans, not monsters with uncontrollable urges. They aren't fighting to maintain their humanity or against their rage. Their only supernatural attributes are Arete (their supernatural strength of belief) and the Spheres (their understanding of various aspects of reality like forces or matter or time that they can affect with their belief). Otherwise, they're just humans (vs. vampires and werewolves who have special rules for things like sunlight, virtues/humanity or silver, rage and its effect on your social attributes, stepping sideways, etc.).
Alot of that carried over to 2nd ed Mage. Which I believe is what I have. I am guessing that in nwod that changed massively?
Quote from: Omega;1090491Except that what little good the coalition does is then undone by all the horrible things they do in the name of "protecting you". This isnt 40k where the Imperium really does have to be that oppressive to keep idiots from sucking whole planets into the chaos, or worse. While still doing horrible things to keep the whole thing running. And progressively failing as its an untenable method.
There is absolutely no reason for the Garou to treat kin badly. Some sure as hell do. But not all. There is no reason for the Garou to slaughter innocent bystanders just to kill one horror. They do it because they dont care and they cant see how much its damaging them. And thats in even the core books. This is a mess of their own making. Their own absolute arrogance. And even in that, if I recall right, not all participated and it was the usual suspects of the Get, Furies and a few others who were the ring leaders.
Garou arent killing machines. They are morons.
Oh get this. Even the Pure who are the antagonists in Werewolf: the Forsaken and represent the most extreme tribes of Gaia in Apocalypse have actually made some changes because guess what? They were failing and one time they had the fewer numbers than the forsaken. In the Pure book the pure tribes had to change their methods and how they recruit in order to survive. Now there are more Pure than Forsaken and right now the Pure are winning. So the group that suppose to represent the worst aspects of Werewolf: the Apocalypse had actually adapted to their world and made some smart moves which is what the werewolves of Gaia had never done.
I say this again. The Garou are too stupid to live. Literally!
Quote from: Omega;1090494Alot of that carried over to 2nd ed Mage. Which I believe is what I have. I am guessing that in nwod that changed massively?
Massively is an understatement. Magic went from subjective belief to "One True Way" (all magic descends from ancient Atlantis and everyone awakens to it through a dream wherein you inscribe your true name on one of five supernal pillars).
Further, magic wasn't vulgar or coincidental because of what humanity believed, but because of the rules established by the Exarchs; super mages who ascended into the supernal realms and re-arranged the cosmos to keep anyone else from doing it so they'd never have to share... and the best way to do that is make mankind forget magic is even possible.
Basically, it sorta smooshed the Order of Hermes and Verbena together into a single paradigm and said all magic works this way and your belief doesn't matter... only your knowledge of the secret truths; which is why Arete got replaced with Gnosis.
Frankly, the whole "Mage the Awakening" thing read like bad Gnostic literature (i.e. the Scientology of the ancient world; "give us your worldly goods and our wise gurus will teach you the secrets to transcending this broken world."); which was the main reason I could never get into it. The depth of its metaphysics wouldn't fill a faction within of the Traditions in terms of depth.
They gutted everything good about Mage the Ascension to make it easier to play in crossover games with the other supernatural types. The great thing about Ascension was you could actually fit the contradictory paradigms of the vampires, werewolves, changelings and wraiths into Mage cosmology without batting an eye and still have room for Hunter and Demon too.
We never had the problem with magic cliques BoxCrayonTales mentioned.
Likewise, the 20th Anniversary edition ended The Process vs. Results-based determism and Omniscient versus Average Observer issues by spelling out that the default;
Process-based determinism (i.e. if you want to have a taxi show up to ferry you across town while all the lights go your way, you're going to need Life and to Mind create a taxi driver, Matter to create his taxi and Forces to change all the lights). You couldn't just use a coincidental Correspondence effect with the coincidence being that a Taxi happening to show up to get you there quickly (that would be Results-based determinism).
-and-
Hypothetical Average Observer. Which means if you duck into a dark alley and then step out of a dark alley on the other side of town using Correspondence to teleport you there, it's coincidental (because people step into and out of alleys all the time and the average observer wouldn't note it as remarkable). The only way it turns vulgar is if a non-hypothetical someone is actually able to observe you disappearing and reappearing or could somehow note that you covered that distance in an impossibly short time (Omniscient would know you teleported regardless and smack you with paradox... but wouldn't hit you for conjuring up a taxi to ferry you quickly across town).
Likewise a LOT of the splatbook material is about how the newer generations of Tradition mages aren't buying into Ludditism, but are incorporating technology into their paradigms. For example, numerology is big in the Order of Hermes paradigm... and computers make it a LOT easier to find patterns in large strings of numbers/text. The Order also invented a ritual involving inscribing glyphs onto seven credit cards, placing them in a circle around your bills and then invoking spirits to gather up enough rounded-off fractions of a penny from electronic transactions to pay said bills. They say if the Technocracy didn't want them to be able to do it, they shouldn't be so sloppy as to only round the value of electronic currency to two decimal places.
So not very Luddite-like at all actually.
SJW wasn't really a thing back in 2e (which is what most people I'm aware of strongly prefer and what the 20th Anniversary edition actually pulls most heavily from) and is pretty easy to overlook in the 20th Anniversary edition too (I should know, I have the entire M20 line). It also fixed the "purple paradigm" issue with its revised rules on paradigm, process and props and through the availability of alternate spheres like Data, Dimensional Science and Primal Utility.
Frankly, the primary antagonists essentially embodying the concepts of the Globalist Deep State makes it super-easy to a very conservative themed campaign about individual liberty and rights vs. the corrupt collective.
Oh boy... You really don't know Mage the Awakening beyond the core don't you?
Let me just say is that the Atlantis thing is both truth and lie. See in the book Imperial Magic which is a supplement in the later parts of Mage the Awakening 1e run that reveals the secrets of magic. This is the supplement that focuses on arch mages and what happens when they ascend to the supernal realm. I will say this. It is like the Matrix. Once you go ascend you got number of points to effect three areas which is the world, the self, and the supernal. The ratings go from one for small changes to five which are cosmic changes.
You can literally say magic is now belief base and remove Atlantis altogether. Maybe instead of that you can say that Fat Toni's Pizza place down the block is the true origin of magic and Fat Toni discovered it while working in his garage. You could create your own watch tower and awaken more people to magic. You could be a god like being that takes out the Exarchs, or at least a large number of them to weaken their grip on magic. At this point reality, its history, and its future is your clay to mold with. It might be feasible that one can remove a watch tower if he so chooses if he was a friend of the Exarchs.
Quote from: Chris24601;1090509Massively is an understatement. Magic went from subjective belief to "One True Way" (all magic descends from ancient Atlantis and everyone awakens to it through a dream wherein you inscribe your true name on one of five supernal pillars).
Further, magic wasn't vulgar or coincidental because of what humanity believed, but because of the rules established by the Exarchs; super mages who ascended into the supernal realms and re-arranged the cosmos to keep anyone else from doing it so they'd never have to share... and the best way to do that is make mankind forget magic is even possible.
Basically, it sorta smooshed the Order of Hermes and Verbena together into a single paradigm and said all magic works this way and your belief doesn't matter... only your knowledge of the secret truths; which is why Arete got replaced with Gnosis.
Frankly, the whole "Mage the Awakening" thing read like bad Gnostic literature (i.e. the Scientology of the ancient world; "give us your worldly goods and our wise gurus will teach you the secrets to transcending this broken world."); which was the main reason I could never get into it. The depth of its metaphysics wouldn't fill a faction within of the Traditions in terms of depth.
They gutted everything good about Mage the Ascension to make it easier to play in crossover games with the other supernatural types. The great thing about Ascension was you could actually fit the contradictory paradigms of the vampires, werewolves, changelings and wraiths into Mage cosmology without batting an eye and still have room for Hunter and Demon too.
We never had the problem with magic cliques BoxCrayonTales mentioned.
Likewise, the 20th Anniversary edition ended The Process vs. Results-based determism and Omniscient versus Average Observer issues by spelling out that the default;
Process-based determinism (i.e. if you want to have a taxi show up to ferry you across town while all the lights go your way, you're going to need Life and to Mind create a taxi driver, Matter to create his taxi and Forces to change all the lights). You couldn't just use a coincidental Correspondence effect with the coincidence being that a Taxi happening to show up to get you there quickly (that would be Results-based determinism).
-and-
Hypothetical Average Observer. Which means if you duck into a dark alley and then step out of a dark alley on the other side of town using Correspondence to teleport you there, it's coincidental (because people step into and out of alleys all the time and the average observer wouldn't note it as remarkable). The only way it turns vulgar is if a non-hypothetical someone is actually able to observe you disappearing and reappearing or could somehow note that you covered that distance in an impossibly short time (Omniscient would know you teleported regardless and smack you with paradox... but wouldn't hit you for conjuring up a taxi to ferry you quickly across town).
Likewise a LOT of the splatbook material is about how the newer generations of Tradition mages aren't buying into Ludditism, but are incorporating technology into their paradigms. For example, numerology is big in the Order of Hermes paradigm... and computers make it a LOT easier to find patterns in large strings of numbers/text. The Order also invented a ritual involving inscribing glyphs onto seven credit cards, placing them in a circle around your bills and then invoking spirits to gather up enough rounded-off fractions of a penny from electronic transactions to pay said bills. They say if the Technocracy didn't want them to be able to do it, they shouldn't be so sloppy as to only round the value of electronic currency to two decimal places.
So not very Luddite-like at all actually.
SJW wasn't really a thing back in 2e (which is what most people I'm aware of strongly prefer and what the 20th Anniversary edition actually pulls most heavily from) and is pretty easy to overlook in the 20th Anniversary edition too (I should know, I have the entire M20 line). It also fixed the "purple paradigm" issue with its revised rules on paradigm, process and props and through the availability of alternate spheres like Data, Dimensional Science and Primal Utility.
Frankly, the primary antagonists essentially embodying the concepts of the Globalist Deep State makes it super-easy to a very conservative themed campaign about individual liberty and rights vs. the corrupt collective.
Quote from: Snowman0147;1090514Oh boy... You really don't know Mage the Awakening beyond the core don't you?
Let me just say is that the Atlantis thing is both truth and lie. See in the book Imperial Magic which is a supplement in the later parts of Mage the Awakening 1e run that reveals the secrets of magic. This is the supplement that focuses on arch mages and what happens when they ascend to the supernal realm. I will say this. It is like the Matrix. Once you go ascend you got number of points to effect three areas which is the world, the self, and the supernal. The ratings go from one for small changes to five which are cosmic changes.
You can literally say magic is now belief base and remove Atlantis altogether. Maybe instead of that you can say that Fat Toni's Pizza place down the block is the true origin of magic and Fat Toni discovered it while working in his garage. You could create your own watch tower and awaken more people to magic. You could be a god like being that takes out the Exarchs, or at least a large number of them to weaken their grip on magic. At this point reality, its history, and its future is your clay to mold with. It might be feasible that one can remove a watch tower if he so chooses if he was a friend of the Exarchs.
The
World of Darkness edition wars generally rely on the haters having absolutely no knowledge of the edition they criticize. Most criticisms of the
Chronicles of Darkness by
World of Darkness fanboys rely on having only the most superficial knowledge of the
Chronicles of Darkness.
There are plenty of things to criticize about
Chronicles of Darkness, like some of the settings have a cosmic monomyth (e.g. Werewolf, Mage) while others superficially lack a cosmic monomyth (e.g. Vampire), but the
World of Darkness fanboys miss the forest for the
leaves. They still have yet to read beyond the first edition rulebooks, if they did not skim the surface of those.
I think both can go die in a fire. I absolutely hate White Wolf's obsession with their absurd monomyths and monolithic secret societies. If I was writing my own emo goth urban fantasy setting, I would go in a completely different direction.
Vampires? Plenty of vampire progenitors have arisen throughout history, Cain does not hold a monopoly on vampires.
Werewolves? There are plenty of ways to become a werewolf and they are not limited to wolf aspects. They have a bunch of religions claiming descent from Gaia or Father Wolf, but there is no universal truth.
Mages? They are power hungry psychopaths and will make up whatever story suits them. There are so many secret societies working at cross purposes that every imaginable sob story has sprung up.
Regarding the New World of Darkness; you only get one chance to make a first impression and NWoD sadly failed in its effort with the people I knew (we had a weekly game of NewMage for about three months before we just decided it wasn't any fun).
As to the Mages being psychopaths... sure, plenty of NPCs are; you've gotta have something for the PCs to fight. Most PCs though start out as newly awakened who are just learning this stuff and still have connections to the mortal world; including day jobs, family and friends. In my experience players choose family and friends over secret societies probably 90% of the time.
The primary example of this was the PC Cabal in my setting who called themselves the Errants. They started out as an outcast Hermetic, Virtual Adept and Celestial Chorus and an Orphan learning from all three and picked up another Orphan and an Ex-Technocrat along the way. Their whole mission as a Cabal (and found family) was to keep their little slice of the South Side of Chicago safe from the things that went bump in the night; vampires, werewolves, ghosts, demons and power hungry mages... also ordinary gangs and organized crime... anyone looking to exploit the people in their neighborhood they did their best to stop.
They also organized groups to clean up the neighborhood. The Celestial Chorus member opened up a homeless shelter/soup kitchen, the Hermetic (who owned a bookstore) started an after school book club to encourage kids who'd be out on the street joining gangs to come to her store and read instead, the Orphan became a beat cop who walked the streets, the Virtual Adept hooked the neighborhood up with free wifi and helped people look for work.
They changed the world way more than most of the secret societies ever did and only part of it was actual magic.
Yeah the game I am making I am pretty much ditching the secret society, or if there must be a secret society it is so deep in the background it really doesn't matter. So your hunter who is part of a secret order of demon hunters with access to supernatural powers will be mostly alone when on mission, but the normal FBI agent only needs to make a few phone calls to be really scary. Then again it actually evens out as the hunter has more personal power while the agent has social clout to make things happen. So one for combat and the other to tangle any social warzone.
So like Dark*Matter? :cool:
Yeah I don't think I have unique ideas to be fairly honest. At some point I am just going with a setting I made because it has the things I like.
Quote from: Snowman0147;1090785Yeah I don't think I have unique ideas to be fairly honest. At some point I am just going with a setting I made because it has the things I like.
I was more joking really. Alot of RPGs have been inspired by various media.
The Haunting (original)
Kolchak: The Night Stalker (original)
Spectre
X-Files
Ghost Busters (original Filmation and all other versions)
Scooby Doo (original)
And others. Paranormal investigation as a theme can take a-lot of different routes. Mix it in with "the hidden" and you can really go wild. Alot of recent and not so recent TV series seem to have locked onto that theme.
Well it is still the truth. I mean a lot of these ideas in my setting are older ideas made by other people in the past. It is ground already treaded. Now mind you that I plan to add twists to them, but in general there isn't a lot of new stuff. It is recycled ideas given new life to a new audience that hopefully won't become toxic like the World of Darkness community has become. Which is really what drove me out of the those games.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1090052Kinfolk: Unsung Heroes is the name of the book in which it is all laid out. I owned said book. And many of the people here who are still WtA fans still own that book. It was the most graphic and reprehensible illustration of how the Garou treated their kin that I had ever seen hit print. They had literal rape camps.
I'm not calling anyone bad for liking that game. I used to. But that book? Sort of burnt the bridges for me. I like to RP happy things. Not get mired in aspects of real life I game to escape.
Bad, nasty, depressing, and icky doesn't mean a game is mature. In my opinion. And I believe that White Wolf/Onyx Path is full of anything but maturity.
Ah! Thanks for the clarification. I never read it. Probably after my time in the WOD, which was generally at the 1st edition/2nd edition transfer. I remember there were several Vampire supplements towards the end of my WOD playing that went really "edgelord" with the whole thing.
Quote from: Chris24601;1090509Further, magic wasn't vulgar or coincidental because of what humanity believed, but because of the rules established by the Exarchs; super mages who ascended into the supernal realms and re-arranged the cosmos to keep anyone else from doing it so they'd never have to share... and the best way to do that is make mankind forget magic is even possible.
I know it was not your intent... but you actually made Awakening sound cool. The Exarchs sound like awesome villains.
I could never figure out what Awakening was supposed to be about. Probably since every time I tried to read the corebook I fell asleep.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1090018You see. I grew up around certain ethnic supremesist groups. That expoused forcing relatives into forced breeding camps. To keep their family lines "pure".
I have not heard of this, but I've been playing Far Cry 5, is that close?
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1091292I have not heard of this, but I've been playing Far Cry 5, is that close?
Never played the Far Cry franchise. So I don't understand the reference.
Religious cultists take over a chunk of Montana and kidnap and forcibly convert people, nailing up any dissenters.
What's the story, Darrin?
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1091367Religious cultists take over a chunk of Montana and kidnap and forcibly convert people, nailing up any dissenters.
What's the story, Darrin?
It's an RPG sourcebook. Not a novel.
It an aspect by aspect showing of what the life of Kinfolk is actually like. There are small pieces of fiction. But not one unified story.
No.
Your story.
QuoteI grew up around certain ethnic supremesist groups. That expoused forcing relatives into forced breeding camps. To keep their family lines "pure".
I have never heard of any place with forced breeding camps.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1091396I have never heard of any place with forced breeding camps.
Well, not for humans...
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1091396No. Your story.
I spent my teenage years in rural Northern California. In a section of the state the locals called Jefferson. Extremists dominated there during the 80's. And it's an area I consider my personal version of hell on earth.
I was lucky to get out of there alive. And I never want to go back.
Racist ideology was a common topic in the junior/senior high I went to in that area. Everything from discussion of breeding pogroms, to date rape. And if you were a minority? Forget it. Your life was treated worth less than anyone the ruling families could exploit.
There are three type of people there. The ruling families. The illegal aliens they exploit. And the poor. The poor were everybody else's whipping boys. Guess what I was?
There is no law in that area. The only police presence are members of the ruling families. if you were a member of the poor? Your life meant nothing at all.
I don't consider that area a part of the United States. The only people who had rights and even have their personhood recognized are those of the ruling families.
I recently found out that most of the school bullies of my class level there are now dead. All statistics of that area's ridiculous murder rate.
So... you don't want WoD to be sold anymore? Not sure where we're going with this?
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1091400There is no law in that area.... if you were a member of the poor? Your life meant nothing at all.... The only people who had rights and even have their personhood recognized are those of the ruling families.
Given your penchant for making baseless claims, and then wildly overexaggerating the slightest provocation and claiming victimhood in such a hyperbolically over the top the way that it's essentially misery porn (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?40442-Godzilla-Anime-Trilogy&p=1087143&viewfull=1#post1087143) in order to avoid justifying those claims, I think it's safe to say you're lying.
Quote from: tenbones;1091404So... you don't want WoD to be sold anymore? Not sure where we're going with this?
I walked away from WoD. Sold off the bulk of my collection. Stopped buying White Wolf/Onyx Path products at all.
And the only White Wolf game I still own is Street Fighter.
Seeing those product lines go extinct and be forgotten would honestly make me very happy. Walking into a convention and never seeing any interation of them on the schedule would give me considerable emotional relief.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1091418I walked away from WoD. Sold off the bulk of my collection. Stopped buying White Wolf/Onyx Path products at all.
And the only White Wolf game I still own is Street Fighter.
Seeing those product lines go extinct and be forgotten would honestly make me very happy. Walking into a convention and never seeing any interation of them on the schedule would give me considerable emotional relief.
You hate them more than me. I just want them to apologize for the horrible shit on the professional level, stop hiring sjws, and make their stuff unwoke normal stuff.
Look what they did to the Dragon Blooded Cover.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]3494[/ATTACH]
Seriously make this stop. PLEASE!
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1091418I walked away from WoD. Sold off the bulk of my collection. Stopped buying White Wolf/Onyx Path products at all.
And the only White Wolf game I still own is Street Fighter.
Seeing those product lines go extinct and be forgotten would honestly make me very happy. Walking into a convention and never seeing any interation of them on the schedule would give me considerable emotional relief.
Holy fuck...and here I thought I had a massive chip on my shoulder about White Wolf/Onyx Path.
Although Street Fighter is the best thing White Wolf ever did since unlike Masquerade, Ascension, or Requiem, it didn't turn to shit in later editions.
Although, maybe you should open your mind to some of the WoD fan games.
Senshi: The Merchandising is fucking awesome (http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/senshi.html)
Quote from: Snowman0147;1091420You hate them more than me. I just want them to apologize for the horrible shit on the professional level, stop hiring sjws, and make their stuff unwoke normal stuff.
Look what they did to the Dragon Blooded Cover.
Seriously make this stop. PLEASE!
That is some seriously ugly painting.
What happened to Exalted's anime aesthetic?
And seriously. The earth will turn flat before that company straightens out.
Quote from: Doc Sammy;1091422Although, maybe you should open your mind to some of the WoD fan games.
Senshi: The Merchandising is fucking awesome (http://www.maison-otaku.net/~rhea/senshi.html)
Big Sailor Moon fan. I just don't like rolling fist-fulls of 10-sided dice anymore.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1091423What happened to Exalted's anime aesthetic?
They thought they were too damn good for the anime. I just wish they could just bring it back.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1091400I spent my teenage years in rural Northern California. In a section of the state the locals called Jefferson. Extremists dominated there during the 80's. And it's an area I consider my personal version of hell on earth.
I was lucky to get out of there alive. And I never want to go back.
I recently found out that most of the school bullies of my class level there are now dead. All statistics of that area's ridiculous murder rate.
Well, I actually learned something new today. Seems they are still pretty serious about succeeding from California and forming their own State.
https://ancestralfindings.com/the-ghost-state-of-jefferson-all-you-need-to-know-about-the-state-you-didnt-know-about/
L.A. Times Article about Jefferson
https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-state-of-jefferson-activists-20180317-htmlstory.html
Oregon Encyclopedia: State of Jefferson
https://oregonencyclopedia.org/articles/state_of_jefferson/
A Separatist State of Mind
https://www.hcn.org/issues/50.1/communities-rural-discontent-finds-a-home-in-the-state-of-jefferson
New York Daily News: Rebellion in California
http://interactive.nydailynews.com/2016/02/state-of-jefferson-secessionists-california-gun-totin-rebels/
California's Most Dangerous Cities (None of the towns in the Northern Jefferson Country even make the top 20)
https://www.paullozadalaw.com/californias-most-dangerous-cities/
GameDaddy,
The media there. All of the reporting is controlled by the ruling families. They don't actually report the horrors that go on in that area. They cover them up.
They who control the media try to write their own reality. instead of the truth.
So what you're saying is Jefferson residents have the Innsmouth Look?
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1090018There was a time on TBP that got me glared at badly by the mods there. What did I do to justify that? I accused the long time developer of Werewolf: The Apocalypse of basically writing an equivilent to FATAL.
Kinfolk: Unsung Heroes showed that the Garou put their kinfolk into forced breeding camps to keep their family lines line "pure". And that they committed all manner of atrocity to those Kinfolk. In addition to what atrocities that the Garou participated in everyday.
You see. Much of the design of the Garou was based on some of the most vile inhuman tactics supposedly expoused by various extremist supremesist movements. Straight from their playbook. The most disgusting, horrible, and inhuman imaginable.
I felt justified in my accusation. And I still do to this day. What they did was no different from what the authors of FATAL did. So yes. I was exposing their hypocrisy.
You see. I grew up around certain ethnic supremesist groups. That expoused forcing relatives into forced breeding camps. To keep their family lines "pure". So I recognized the doctrines that the authors of Werewolf: The Apocalypse drew the most disgusting and reprehensible of the Garou's tactics from. And I am not proud of that knowledge. I'm as horrified and sickened by that behavior now as I was when I was first exposed to that doctrine.
I feel I have been harassed and singled out by the mods of TBP because I called out those authors for glorifying those horrible subjects. To this very day, I feel I have been meeting stronger penalties than anyone else when I post something the mods there take a dislike to.
Can you show us where the anal and vaginal circumference rules are in Werewolf: the Apocalypse?
Also the rules about how high your voice is? Thus whether or not you are gay?
And can you show us where the rape-ventures are?
Which "certain ethnic supremacist groups" are you speaking of?
You got all of the answers I plan to give. And all of the references I planned to provide.
You don't have any right to interrogate me. And I am certainly not your servant.
Vastly disappointed nobody in this thread replied with a "your mom" quip.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1091658You got all of the answers I plan to give. And all of the references I planned to provide.
You don't have any right to interrogate me. And I am certainly not your servant.
You seem to not understand what a forum is for. Nor that if you make such statements as you did in your original post, people are going to have questions.
No one's interrogating you, obviously you don't have to answer anything.
But you're going to have a lot of folks basically ignoring anything you post when you do stuff like that.
Quote from: Anthony Pacheco;1091659Vastly disappointed nobody in this thread replied with a "your mom" quip.
I'll bite... your mom.
You guys, leave poor Darrin alone, he's busy sewing his red robe and white bonnet.
Norcal forced breeding camps...HILARIOUS. Equally hilarious is imagining the Norcal potheads "controlling" the media.
At this point, I am curious as to who will the award for "The RPG Site's most unhinged poster"
At this point, it's a toss-up between Darrin and Yours Truly.
I thought I had that award in the bag until this thread popped up. It's like Darrin's trying to ape my style, starting off with grievances over World of Darkness and then complaining about a right-wing upbringing in Northern California, much like how I complain about growing up in Appalachia.
Although I don't recall any breeding programs, rape camps, or Nazi-controlled local media outlets in Appalachia. Maybe Northern California is worse...:D
Quote from: Doc Sammy;1091764At this point, I am curious as to who will the award for "The RPG Site's most unhinged poster"
At this point, it's a toss-up between Darrin and Yours Truly.
I thought I had that award in the bag until this thread popped up. It's like Darrin's trying to ape my style, starting off with grievances over World of Darkness and then complaining about a right-wing upbringing in Northern California, much like how I complain about growing up in Appalachia.
Although I don't recall any breeding programs, rape camps, or Nazi-controlled local media outlets in Appalachia. Maybe Northern California is worse...:D
Well you're definitely leaning into his territory trying to make this all about you. :P
Quote from: Doc Sammy;1091764At this point, it's a toss-up between Darrin and Yours Truly.
See that is a act of self reflection which makes you less unhinged. I think you lost that award buddy.
Quote from: pdboddy;1091767Well you're definitely leaning into his territory trying to make this all about you. :P
Touche!
Eh, I wasn't trying to make it all about me. I was just pointing out how people like to complain about me all the time when I'm not the only one who posts some "out there" stuff on this board nor am I the only one who gets super-abrasive about it either.
Darrin has outdone me on both fronts in this thread alone.
Quote from: Snowman0147;1091768See that is a act of self reflection which makes you less unhinged. I think you lost that award buddy.
True. I suppose I shall step down and let Darrin Kelley accept the award for "Most Unhinged Poster On The RPG Site"
Quote from: Doc Sammy;1091769Touche!
Eh, I wasn't trying to make it all about me. I was just pointing out how people like to complain about me all the time when I'm not the only one who posts some "out there" stuff on this board nor am I the only one who gets super-abrasive about it either.
Duuuuude. The :P indicates my post was humourous in intent. You definitely lose the award. xD
Doc Sammy,
Any similarities between my experiences and yours are mere coincidence.
Quote from: Snowman0147;1091178Well it is still the truth. I mean a lot of these ideas in my setting are older ideas made by other people in the past. It is ground already treaded. Now mind you that I plan to add twists to them, but in general there isn't a lot of new stuff. It is recycled ideas given new life to a new audience that hopefully won't become toxic like the World of Darkness community has become. Which is really what drove me out of the those games.
And those people allmost certainly got a little, or alot of inspiration from even older sources. It is nearly hard-wired into the human psyche the idea of supernatural being hiding among us. Some cultures play with it heavier than others. But if you poke around you find this element everywhere. So it is more likely you are tapping the same wellspring as others have. As said. Go wild and make of it what you will. Unless you are lifing whole cloth from someone elses works then its your own aegis.
There's actually a lot of creativity out there with the formula. Lost Girl and American Vampire are some examples I can name.