Yeah they burnt their bridges so damn much I am making my own game called Adventures of the Weird.  Trying to get play testers for that so if your interested pm me please.  Now I cannot promise you it will be exactly like World of Darkness, but it will be something interesting.

Another recent issue I had with TBP? I was threadbanned and straight up threatened by a mod for expressing an opinion they didn't like. But didn't actually violate any of their rules.

I put forth the opinion of: Why would Nu-White Wolf want to give the Original World Of Darkness back to Onyx Path? When the whole of Onyx Path were the ones who ended that game line in the first place. And I expressed my opposition to them doing so. Especially since it was Onyx Path who led a crusade against Nu-White Wolf producing Vampire 5th Edition in the first place.

TBP has become big about punishing people for opinions they don't like.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1090045TBP has become big about punishing people for opinions they don't like.

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Honestly, I think you're projecting.  I used to play WtA pretty regularly back in the day.  Admittedly, this was 20+ years ago, so my recollection might be a little hazy, but I don't recall the kind of forced breeding camps you describe being part of the schtick. Considering that Garou + Garou mating produces a sterile Metis, which is generally frowned upon, all Garou are of mixed heritage to some extent.  

It is true that SOME tribes are very big on bloodline, and the degree of Garou purity can affect things in game, but generally this was treated as more along the line of aristocratic blood-lines than eugenic breeding programs.  Most tribes didn't care, and some were actively against the old bloodlines.

The only tribes I can think of off the top of my head that might have particular opinions on the matter are:

Silver Fangs: Old blood aristocrats, but forced breeding programs doesn't fit their M.O.
Shadow Lords:  Machiavellian programs certainly fit, but I don't recall them giving a shit about blood purity generally
Red Talons:  Wolves only (no human kinfolk), but Garou purity not a factor
Bonegnawers:  Gutter trash and mutts by definition.
Get of Fenris:  Possible Northern European ethnic exclusion in kinfolk, but Garou purity not really a factor

None of this was a really big part of the game.  I mean, you certainly COULD choose to focus on it, but it was presented as background material that might function as a kind of B-story to the main plot line of fighting against the forces of global decay generated by the Wyrm and the corrupted Weaver.

Edit:  I don't know anything about TBP and I'm sorry you were banned.  I don't agree with your take on WtA, but you're certainly entitled to express your opinion.

No one really denies that the Garou are fucked up in their behavior towards Kin. That doesn't make Skemp (who I assume you were directing your comment to a skeever). Hell Forsaken included commentary on that same situation in that the Pure Tribes were based off of the most extreme parts of the Garou Nation, and were explicitly the baddies.

Quote from: Brendan;1090048Honestly, I think you're projecting.  I used to play WtA pretty regularly back in the day.  Admittedly, this was 20+ years ago, so my recollection might be a little hazy, but I don't recall the kind of forced breeding camps you describe being part of the schtick. Considering that Garou + Garou mating produces a sterile Metis, which is generally frowned upon, all Garou are of mixed heritage to some extent.  

It is true that SOME tribes are very big on bloodline, and the degree of Garou purity can affect things in game, but generally this was treated as more along the line of aristocratic blood-lines than eugenic breeding programs.  Most tribes didn't care, and some were actively against the old bloodlines.

The only tribes I can think of off the top of my head that might have particular opinions on the matter are:

Silver Fangs: Old blood aristocrats, but forced breeding programs doesn't fit their M.O.
Shadow Lords:  Machiavellian programs certainly fit, but I don't recall them giving a shit about blood purity generally
Red Talons:  Wolves only (no human kinfolk), but Garou purity not a factor
Bonegnawers:  Gutter trash and mutts by definition.
Get of Fenris:  Possible Northern European ethnic exclusion in kinfolk, but Garou purity not really a factor

None of this was a really big part of the game.  I mean, you certainly COULD choose to focus on it, but it was presented as background material that might function as a kind of B-story to the main plot line of fighting against the forces of global decay generated by the Wyrm and the corrupted Weaver.

Edit:  I don't know anything about TBP and I'm sorry you were banned.  I don't agree with your take on WtA, but you're certainly entitled to express your opinion.

Kinfolk: Unsung Heroes is the name of the book in which it is all laid out. I owned said book. And many of the people here who are still WtA fans still own that book. It was the most graphic and reprehensible illustration of how the Garou treated their kin that I had ever seen hit print. They had literal rape camps.

I'm not calling anyone bad for liking that game. I used to. But that book? Sort of burnt the bridges for me. I like to RP happy things. Not get mired in aspects of real life I game to escape.

Bad, nasty, depressing, and icky doesn't mean a game is mature. In my opinion. And I believe that White Wolf/Onyx Path is full of anything but maturity.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1090018I felt justified in my accusation. And I still do to this day. What they did was no different from what the authors of FATAL did. So yes. I was exposing their hypocrisy.

You see. I grew up around certain ethnic supremesist groups. That expoused forcing relatives into forced breeding camps. To keep their family lines "pure". So I recognized the doctrines that the authors of Werewolf: The Apocalypse drew the most disgusting and reprehensible of the Garou's tactics from. And I am  not proud of that knowledge. I'm as horrified and sickened by that behavior now as I was when I was first exposed to that doctrine.

I feel I have been harassed and singled out by the mods of TBP because I called out those authors for glorifying those horrible subjects. To this very day, I feel I have been meeting stronger penalties than anyone else when I post something the mods there take a dislike to.

Well that is the hilarious thing about the Werewolf setting. like 90% of these so called noble defenders are also some of the most bigoted, racist, supremacist, isolationist, hatemongering, genociding,  nuts on the planet and are actually part of the reason the WOD is so fucked up in the first place. And then the Nuwisha turned around and screwed it up even more.

And that may be part of the point. These are monsters fighting monsters and doing monster things. It is a purely player fabrication that werewolves are noble or good. They seem to be competing with the Vampires to see who can debase themselves more.

Keep in mind that WW lives on this stuff. Clandestine groups, conspiracies, and a death spiral of their own creation.

Quote from: Omega;1090053like 90% of these so called noble defenders are also some of the most bigoted, racist, supremacist, isolationist, hatemongering, genociding,  nuts on the planet

I see we're talking about the moderators on RPGnet again... oh, wait... my mistake.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1090027It treated them as a routine part of Garou life. Something none of them. No matter what Tribe. Would hesitate one second about inflicting on their kin.

Treating something so ugly as routine is to glorify it. To display it as culturally acceptable.  In my opinion.

Not really. It can be an indicator that a group or society has fallen and in the Garou case, fallen hard.

Also note that not all do these things and depending on the group some would be appalled by these acts against kin. Black Furies and Get of Fenris are obviously meant to be over the top nuts who will commit any act in the name of "the war!". With the Uktena close behind with an added dose of incessant bitching about how the europeans acted when they themselves are no better. Garou are meant to be hypocrisy.

But making a bad thing routine in no way automatically glorifies it. It can be a powerful tool to show how bad things are.

Non Werewolf example: In Albedo the ILR is a combination of Fascist Germany and Communist China. Racist, expansionistic, totalitarian, and everything else bad about such societies. Any non-lapines on planets they take over are either executed, or shipped off to concentration planets. As are any lapine citizens that resist being indoctrinated into the ILR. This in no way at all glorifies these sorts of acts just because they are part of the setting and routine. The PCs are expected to resist, fight and push back this threat and be vigilant for attempts by the ambitious to start the same within the EDF. And on some EDF planets workers were kept in effectively perpetual indentured slavery by keeping supply prices so high no one could afford to get out of working in the mines and quarries. This on top of some other underhanded political intrigue going on that the PCs may have to deal with.

Get out there and fight it!

Quote from: Snowman0147;1090033I simply think this.  The reason why the werewolves are losing the war is simply because they are just too stupid to live.

Oh so very very true. And this is brought up on the various books just how spectacularly the Garou fucked things up. Are fucking things up. Will fuck things up.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1090038Yeah wasn't there a time when some one made a npc werewolf that was trying to go into environmental technologies and working with humans to make a world a better place?  If my memory is right I think the werewolf players booed that out and called it immature.  If my memory is correct that is.

Pretty sure its in the books too that some have tried or are trying. Usually the other woof nuts kill them or... fuck it up... because thats all they seem capable of doing on a larger scale.

I'm going to bring up the glorifacation angle again. Because I have a point I want to make in doing so.

In Werewolf: The Apocalypse, you aren't playing something with a human point of view. You are playing a monster who has its own societal mores and traditions. And most of the books in that game line are written from the Garou point of view. Including Kinfolk: Unsung Heroes.

By the point of view of the Garou, the things they do to their kinfolk is correct and absolutely justified. So it is written with a strong inference that the Kinfolk are perfectly justified sacrifices for the cause. That anything the Garou does to them is pretty much fair game. Kinfolk: Unsung Heroes is a propoganda piece that straight up glorifies to the Garou what they are doing.

By human standards? What they do is inhumane and disgusting.

But yes, the glorifacation angle is very much present.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1090058But yes, the glorifacation angle is very much present.

While I agree with you on other points in this. This os one I do not. Overall in the books this stuff, and especially the Kin book its depicted as just how far off the deep end some of the Garou have swan dived themselvs.

And keep in mind that not all are doing these things. As noted above. Some would detest such acts as undermining the whole effort and try to curb or stop it if they find out. And again theres that WW love of conspiracies as the PCs or NPCs are likely going to have to dig to uncover these skeletons in the closet. Then decide what to do about it?

So again this is not 'glorifying' anything. It oft comes across as the exact opposite.

I'm a fan of the original Werewolf 1e. Never read anything beyond the original books, so I can't comment on whatever came later.

I get that the Garou are monsters doing monstrous stuff, but they're up against the end of the world. The rules of morality don't stand a chance when faced with oblivion.  It's the same reason I don't see the Coalition as villains in Rifts. The Garou are killing machines, but the world itself is dying and nobody else except the wolves can possibly stop the onslaught.

Eggs are gonna get broken to make that omelet.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1090038Yeah wasn't there a time when some one made a npc werewolf that was trying to go into environmental technologies and working with humans to make a world a better place?  If my memory is right I think the werewolf players booed that out and called it immature.  If my memory is correct that is.

IIRC, It was a member of the GlassWalker tribe who was working to promote Green Tech to her corporate clients by showing how it could mean profit that waa presented Changeling the Dream which also had Red Talon (perhaps most violently anti-human tribes) that went into the dreaded city to learn if they (humans/cities)  were as hideously corrupt and vile as her elders taught and was having a change of attitude. She was going so far as having her journey and the lessons learned preserved on her body as tattoos. I don't know if they were presented elsewhere.

The Garou's xenophobia and dogmatic attitude and resistance to change, arrogance and over reliance on the brute force method always appeared to be presented as failing of the species that have likely doomed them (and by extension the world).  They have nearly exterminated other Shifters in their Rage and drive toward purity. But they are too hidebound to do much except double down on their mistakes aside from some individuals and some tribes that lean in a more open direction (Children of Gaia, Glasswalkers...) but they suffer socially for their attitude.