Quote from: jhkimWhite actors portraying Fu-Manchu with taped-up eyes in the movies isn't just good fun, in my opinion.

Agreed.  Can something like Fu Manchu ever have redeeming value?  I don't know.  In comics both the Yellow Claw and the Mandarin started as basically Fu Manchu ripoffs, yet they are also interesting characters that make for good stories.  Fu Manchu himself was put to very good use in League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.  In none of those cases do I think the authorial intent was to paint the entire Chinese race as villains.

What's wrong with Christopher Lee playing Fu Manchu?

Quote from: jrientsAgreed.  Can something like Fu Manchu ever have redeeming value?  I don't know.  In comics both the Yellow Claw and the Mandarin started as basically Fu Manchu ripoffs, yet they are also interesting characters that make for good stories.  Fu Manchu himself was put to very good use in League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.  In none of those cases do I think the authorial intent was to paint the entire Chinese race as villains.

There's two caveats here.  First of all, I've already stated that to me, it's not good enough to simply not be intentionally trying to paint the entire Chinese race (as if there was one) as villains.  I guess it's better than trying to do so, but doesn't make everything OK.  

Second, telling a good story also doesn't let you off the hook, at least in my view.  Racist stories can be interesting and good.  The Birth of a Nation is a good story.  I watched it on DVD a few weeks ago.  Roget Ebert puts it on his "great movies" list, and it is #44 in the American Film Institute's top 100 movies of all times.  It is the most compelling silent film I've ever seen.  Similarly, Sax Rohmer was a racist, but he was also a prolific and entertaining writer.  His stories sold massively and fed numerous radio and movie adaptations.  

I don't know either of your examples well enough to judge, so I can't say specifically.  In principle, just taking a Fu Manchu story and softening the racist edges a little, like by adding a plucky good Chinese sidekick to show that some Asians can be good, too, doesn't make me feel a whole lot better about it.

Quote from: jhkimMaybe this is a terminology thing, but I would say that prejudice about "inscrutable orientals" is, well, racism (and Orientalism in particular).

Whoops. My entry should have been clearer. I was trying to distinguish between  intentional ill-willed racism and racism produced out of ignorance with no particular ill-will on a conscious level.
And yes, I'd agree that your example is a kind of Orientalism, but you also picked a particularly stupid example, and one that hampers gameplay.  Which is, I think, the real issue. The point I was trying to make is that using stereotypes about perceptions of non-european (or indeed, european) cultures is not something to be particularly avoided if these stereotypes are positive and most important, if they're COOL and add to gameplay.


We all know that Japan was never really like we think of it in samurai flicks, and we know that "Oriental Adventures" is based on stereotypes rather than truth; but its no more so than Greyhawk.  Its not a racism issue, its a "pop culture references for game settings" issue.

Usually. Your example highlites an exception to that rule. One that has, fortunately, been fixed now. In GURPS Banestorm, the region is just another Samurai/Japanese stereotype culture, but no longer derogatory nor unplayable.

RPGPundit

Quote from: jhkimSecond, telling a good story also doesn't let you off the hook, at least in my view.

I'm not asking off any hook.  I'm openly acknowledging that there are racist elements are present in some of my favorite fiction and in some of my favorite games and in the games I run.  Just like there is sexism and homophobia and classism and many other ills.   These things are not going away soon and they are intermingled with some of the great stuff of storytelling.  Rather than jettison nearly all of pop culture and much of western literature as source material, I instead choose to own up, apologize where needed, amend where possible, and continue on.  Maybe that's not good enough, but that's all I've got.

QuoteIn principle, just taking a Fu Manchu story and softening the racist edges a little, like by adding a plucky good Chinese sidekick to show that some Asians can be good, too, doesn't make me feel a whole lot better about it.

I don't propose anything so trite.  I simply offer the possibility that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and sometimes a supervillain, no matter what his questionable origin, is just a supervillain.  I use Fu Manchu as my example because he's cool.  Yes, he's a whole bunch of horrible misconceptions about asians wrapped up in a tight little package, but he's also one of the greatest melodramatic villains of all time.  If Latverians really existed, I'd be making the same case for Doctor Doom.

Quote from: jrientsI'm not asking off any hook.  I'm openly acknowledging that there are racist elements are present in some of my favorite fiction and in some of my favorite games and in the games I run.  Just like there is sexism and homophobia and classism and many other ills.   These things are not going away soon and they are intermingled with some of the great stuff of storytelling.  Rather than jettison nearly all of pop culture and much of western literature as source material, I instead choose to own up, apologize where needed, amend where possible, and continue on.  Maybe that's not good enough, but that's all I've got.

Ah.  Well, apologizing and acknowledging the problem is good.  

One thing to keep in mind is that racist sources and/or a racist in-game society aren't the same thing as racism in the game.  There are many great stories which are actively opposed to racism that are set in racist societies.  The game being non-racist doesn't mean that there can't be any racist characters in it, nor that racists need to be two-dimensional villains.  However, you can't just repeat what's done in source material without questioning it and changing some bits -- or perhaps acknowledging them and apologizing.  

For example, I ran a James Bond 007 campaign about a year ago.  Now, though the themes were softened somewhat in the movies, the original Ian Fleming books were often blatantly racist.  For example, in "Live and Let Die", the blacks of Harlem work for Mr. Big.  That's right -- all of them.  You can see bits of this in the movie, like when a big funeral procession of black people all cooperate in disposing of a dead spy.  Anyway, it's something I kept in mind when I ran my game.  The game had many stereotypes, but I don't think I have anything to apologize about.  (Well, actually, I didn't have any black characters in the game, but I thought about the general issue when I had adventures in Pakistan and Japan.)

Quote from: jhkimHowever, you can't just repeat what's done in source material without questioning it and changing some bits -- or perhaps acknowledging them and apologizing.

I don't see the need for this amount of political correctness when running a game. Or let me put another way: Why should I _simulate_ something down to the bone marrow instead of going with the visuals?

Sometimes you want to play a fictional world where the gears fit in each other and everything makes sense. Sometimes you want to smite the evil orcs in the name of your pure religious ideals.

Quote from: RPGPunditWhoops. My entry should have been clearer. I was trying to distinguish between  intentional ill-willed racism and racism produced out of ignorance with no particular ill-will on a conscious level.
And yes, I'd agree that your example is a kind of Orientalism, but you also picked a particularly stupid example, and one that hampers gameplay.  Which is, I think, the real issue. The point I was trying to make is that using stereotypes about perceptions of non-european (or indeed, european) cultures is not something to be particularly avoided if these stereotypes are positive and most important, if they're COOL and add to gameplay.

Well, this goes back to the good stories thing and positive stereotypes.  I'm sure that there are people who might have a lot of fun playing the "Sahudese Fire Drill" adventure, having fun chasing after those wacky Sahudese.  It's not clear to me that it hampers gameplay as long as the players are the type who are willing to have fun with it.  

Now, it's true that the Sahud example is negative stereotypes, but as I mentioned earlier, just saying positive things isn't always respectful either.  For example, if you haven't seen Black People Love Us!, I recommend it.  

The point is just that it takes a little thinking about race if you put other races in.  You can also try some tricks in your portrayals.  In some settings, you can make up NPC concepts without race or gender, then roll randomly for what they should be -- creating the final character based on the concept (i.e. villainous wizard) and the random demographic.  Another good simple rule is having at least two differing factions within other races.  So, for example, in my Vinland game I highlighted the contrast between the Algonquians and the Iroquoians.

Quote from: SosthenesI don't see the need for this amount of political correctness when running a game. Or let me put another way: Why should I _simulate_ something down to the bone marrow instead of going with the visuals?

Sometimes you want to play a fictional world where the gears fit in each other and everything makes sense. Sometimes you want to smite the evil orcs in the name of your pure religious ideals.

Well, you don't need to do it, at least in my view.  (I'm one of those card-carrying ACLU types who are opposed to political correctness.)  So, for example, if you want to play in a game where you're heroically fighting off the Yellow Peril and the insidious plots of Fu Manchu, then go do it.  It's a free country.  However, I won't join your game, and I'll probably have a few words of free speech to say about what I think of it.

Quote from: jhkimSo, for example, if you want to play in a game where you're heroically fighting off the Yellow Peril and the insidious plots of Fu Manchu, then go do it.  It's a free country.  However, I won't join your game, and I'll probably have a few words of free speech to say about what I think of it.

So where do you draw the line exactly? At what point does a character or setting go from a caricature to something that's actually insulting?
(Honestly, I'm always very bad at seeing that invisible 'line'.)

Quote from: SosthenesSo where do you draw the line exactly? At what point does a character or setting go from a caricature to something that's actually insulting?

(Honestly, I'm always very bad at seeing that invisible 'line'.)

Well, it is a bit cheap to answer a question with a question, but where do you draw the line?  Is there anything which you would consider offensive or insulting in a game?  

Usually it's a pretty personal thing.  So your line is visible to you, but other people's lines aren't directly visible.  I can talk about what I find insulting, but it's not a short answer.

Quote from: jhkimWell, it is a bit cheap to answer a question with a question, but where do you draw the line?  Is there anything which you would consider offensive or insulting in a game?

Hmm. Offensive, yes, no problem with that. But that's usually from a very objective point of view. Insulting requires a more personal commitment, and it's hard to get me that way. Having a hard time feeling commitment to any social group has its advantages, too. Actually, to reach a high enough pain level, it would have to hit pretty close. Not very likely that a game, novel or movie will succeed in that. Four-color caricatures have no chance at all. I don't really identify with prussian SS officers speaking in bad accents...

I am a rock, I am an island. And a rock -- has a pretty hard time too judge when other people might get offended. So most of the time I try to avoid those subjects, unless I'm really out for a good rant. Then I'm in like the Hun I really am

Quote from: SosthenesHmm. Offensive, yes, no problem with that. But that's usually from a very objective point of view. Insulting requires a more personal commitment, and it's hard to get me that way.

Well, I don't want to quibble over what is objectively offensive versus personally insulting.  The important question would be: Is there a line which you draw which you wouldn't want to play in a game, based on content in the game?  

For example, the African-American issues touched on in The Birth of a Nation are pretty distant from me personally.  And indeed, I watched the film without getting emotional.  But if someone wanted to play a straight game based on that, I'd have a problem with it.  Would you?  

I know this is an extreme example, but I want to establish a line.  So somewhere there's a line between what's acceptable for you in a game and what is unacceptable.

QuoteAfrican-American

The stupidmost term evolving from PC-Speak. What will a PC-boy do when he is in South Africa, and wants to fight for the rights of the Blacks? What term will he use?

But it´s not about reality, it´s about being a puritan bigot smartass who is holier than his fellow whiteys. EDIT: I´m not attacking Mr. Kim here. It´s an attack against the this terrible term, that is US-centric.

Quote from: jhkimFor example, the African-American issues touched on in The Birth of a Nation are pretty distant from me personally.  And indeed, I watched the film without getting emotional.  But if someone wanted to play a straight game based on that, I'd have a problem with it.  Would you?

Haven't seen the movie, so I can't tell you. I'm guessing it's the usual racist KKK stuff. I don't think _focusing_ on this will be worthwile in a role-playing game. Playing in a world where this is the common view and your characters might think that way, although this isn't the central point of the adventures is definitely possible though. Otherwise you couldn't play a historic campaign.

On the other hand, some DitV "adventures" might not be so far away and I've seen backgrounds where the treatment of orcs is worse than most real world racism. When you have absolute alignments, apparently you're allowed to do all kinds of crap.