Quote from: jrientsI don't do subtle or nuanced in my games.  If I run a game set in Japan it will feature ninjas and katanas and geishas and sumo wrestlers and sushi.  But if I run a game set in the Old West it would feature gunslingers and shotguns and painted jezebels and big guys named Hoss and whisky.  No big whup.

Um?  Look, I'm fine with having ninjas in a game set in Japan.  But are you seriously taking the position that absolutely no portrayal of Asians could possibly be offensive?  

I guess I should give an example.  Below is a goodly chunk of the section on Sahud from the 1st edition of GURPS Fantasy.  

QuoteSahud is a peninsula at the very northern edge of the continent. Other lands know little of Sahud; even its name will be unknown in the far southern territories. To PCs it should be a land of exotic mystery and danger.

...

         The Earthmen dropped onto Sahud were from a totally different culture than those sent to southern lands. They were Japanese and Korean. But their numbers were few, and they had no nobles nor master craftsmen. They were peasants; they did nothing but farm the land in peaceful anarchy.

         Gradually, their descendants developed a complex social structure, based on the dimly-remembered tales of older days. They created a life of ritual-dominated trade and warfare that is almost incomprehensible to other folk. Clans have risen and fallen, but there have been no significant changes in overall Sahudese life for many hundreds of years.

...

         The keynote of Sahudese society is the constant maneuvering, between clans and between families within a clan, for honor and "face". Trade is a vital concern, but it is part of the larger game. The wise visitor will avoid political involvement whenever possible. The foolish visitor may seek to participate or even to control; if he seems to succeed, it will be due mostly to luck.

...

         As far as any PC will be able to tell, Sahudese law is almost totally random. It is usually connected with political maneuverings and "face." Courts are places of great pomp. Judgements can be almost instant, or can drag on for weeks. Decisions usually favor the Sahudese rather than strangers, but this seems to be because the Sahudese know the rules, rather than actual bias. One trader returned to tell how he'd been hauled into court on a charge of "improper haggling." The judge heard the testimony, fined the trader ten copper pieces, and ordered the prosecuting attorney executed . . .

         Pleas and bribes will sometimes be effective, and sometimes not. It is entirely up to the GM how to treat those embroiled in Sahudese law, but courtesy and cleverness should be rewarded.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I found this offensive as a Korean.  Now, were there stereotypes in the European regions of Yrth (the world of GURPS Fantasy)?  Well, yes, there were some.  However, there was a major difference in the portrayal as a whole.  None of the Europeans countries were made of ignorant clods who cover for their lack of culture by mindless imitation of stuff they can't remember.  

I won't even get into the "Sahudese Fire Drill" adventure.

I think when it comes to the portrayal of "other" cultures esp in fantasy games, some writers latch on to a particularly nasty stereotype of certain real world cultures and base the whole fantasy equivalent on this premise.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: jhkimUm?  Look, I'm fine with having ninjas in a game set in Japan.  But are you seriously taking the position that absolutely no portrayal of Asians could possibly be offensive?

I didn't see anywhere in the jrients post I quoted where he, or anyone else in this thread for that matter, have said, "absolutely no portrayal of Asians could possibly be offensive". I know I certainly wouldn't have agreed with that statement.

QuoteI'm going to go out on a limb and say that I found this offensive as a Korean.  Now, were there stereotypes in the European regions of Yrth (the world of GURPS Fantasy)?  Well, yes, there were some.  However, there was a major difference in the portrayal as a whole.  None of the Europeans countries were made of ignorant clods who cover for their lack of culture by mindless imitation of stuff they can't remember.  

I won't even get into the "Sahudese Fire Drill" adventure.

My advice would be to climb down off the limb, you'll be more comfortable. Yes, the GURPS Yrth crap is just that, however if anyone were to think of the Yrth material (or 99% of RPG material) as anywhere near accurate, I'd say they have bigger problems. It's stuff for gaming, not academic texts. In the case of Yrth it's not even good stuff for gaming.

Quote from: jhkimUm?  Look, I'm fine with having ninjas in a game set in Japan.  But are you seriously taking the position that absolutely no portrayal of Asians could possibly be offensive?

Uh, no.  In fact I would not be the least surprised if my gaming portrayals of Asia were offensive to some.  All I'm saying is that my own protrayals of the 'mysterious east' are no more crude and stereotyped as the way I portray the cultures I actually participate in.  Call it the equality of my basest impulses, if you will.  I consider Fu Manchu style villains to be fair game, but only because rapacious Robber Barons and two-dimensional SS Officers and decadent Emperors are equally fair game.

To put it simply:  I can flip out about vikings just as much as ninja.

Quote from: jhkimI'm going to go out on a limb and say that I found this offensive as a Korean.

AH, so you are Korean! I was wondering, with the last name and all.  So you and Jong (also Kim) are very very very distant relatives.

Fuck. Well, that's it. Game's over. You've ruined me for life.
Now I can't imagine what you'd look like outside of that context.  From here on in, whenever I see any of your posts, all I'll see is Jong with a goatee.

QuoteNow, were there stereotypes in the European regions of Yrth (the world of GURPS Fantasy)?  Well, yes, there were some.  However, there was a major difference in the portrayal as a whole.  None of the Europeans countries were made of ignorant clods who cover for their lack of culture by mindless imitation of stuff they can't remember.  

I won't even get into the "Sahudese Fire Drill" adventure.

That whole deal was pretty bizzare. But the way I see it could be one of three things:
It could be plain racism, as in, the author doesn't like asians and decided to make them dumb in the game.  I don't really think that one is it though.
It could be a simple coincidence of design, that making the "sahudese" that way had nothing to do with their outer world origin as it did with the in-setting construction of the world.  Sahud is off in the north, far away from the central action of the setting, and thus the designer could afford to have a "slightly silly" culture that he couldn't if it was central.
I don't really buy that completely either; though.  I do think that it was probably a combination of the above and the third possibility: that the author was affected by some of the prejudice about the "inscrutable orientals", about eastern society being very rigid, structured and byzantine (which they often were) and therefore incomprehensible to westerners (which of course they're not).

Anyways, you'll be glad to know that the new GURPS Banestorm has pretty much fixed Sahud; its now suitably foreign and mysterious without being incomprehensible and silly.

Although, I don't know, if Jong was the only example of Korean society I'd ever run into... he's pretty incomprehensible at times. But fortunately I've run into enough Koreans and looked at Korean society enough to know that not all Koreans are incomprehensible silly people.  Apparently, its just the Kims.

RPGPundit

Quote from: David RI think when it comes to the portrayal of "other" cultures esp in fantasy games, some writers latch on to a particularly nasty stereotype of certain real world cultures and base the whole fantasy equivalent on this premise.

Regards,
David R

I think that's a lot less common than a game writer latching onto a particularly "cool" stereotype of certain real world cultures (theirs or "other"), and basing the fantasy equivalent on that.

I mean really, the middle ages weren't really filled with plate-mail wearing knights galavanting about on holy quests. There was relatively very little of that going on; far less than, say, dying of the pox. But a fantasy setting based on a "European culture" inevitably has way more of the former and way less of the latter.

RPGPundit

Quote from: SigmundIn the case of Yrth it's not even good stuff for gaming.

Its gotten stunningly better. I hated all previous versions of Yrth. But GURPS Banestorm, the new version for 4e, is actually cool now. They finally wrote it in such a way that you get what would make the world a cool setting, and not seem to suck donkey balls.

RPGPundit

Quote from: jrientsUh, no.  In fact I would not be the least surprised if my gaming portrayals of Asia were offensive to some.  All I'm saying is that my own protrayals of the 'mysterious east' are no more crude and stereotyped as the way I portray the cultures I actually participate in.  Call it the equality of my basest impulses, if you will.  I consider Fu Manchu style villains to be fair game, but only because rapacious Robber Barons and two-dimensional SS Officers and decadent Emperors are equally fair game.

To put it simply:  I can flip out about vikings just as much as ninja.

Any player of mine will know that the only "racist portrayal" I have in my games is of the Scots. And I have it in every game, no matter what the setting.

RPGPundit

QuoteAny player of mine will know that the only "racist portrayal" I have in my games is of the Scots. And I have it in every game, no matter what the setting.

Because you're Scottish or because you know the Scots have an unusually good sense of humour about this kind of thing compared to just about every other ethnic group on the planet?

Quote from: RPGPunditAny player of mine will know that the only "racist portrayal" I have in my games is of the Scots. And I have it in every game, no matter what the setting.

Wait. You mean Scots aren't like you say?

Quote from: StuartBecause you're Scottish or because you know the Scots have an unusually good sense of humour about this kind of thing compared to just about every other ethnic group on the planet?

The latter. And because its so fucking easy to make up a silly scotsman stereotype.  The kilts, beards, and accents all just lend themselves to that perfectly. Its the Hatrick of prejudiced stereotypes.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditI think that's a lot less common than a game writer latching onto a particularly "cool" stereotype of certain real world cultures (theirs or "other"), and basing the fantasy equivalent on that.

RPGPundit

You're probably right. But than again it all boils down to whether the stereotype is negative or positive. I doubt many folks would find a cool (positive) stereotype of their race offensive, but when it comes to the negative, well you know how it goes...

Regards,
David R

Well, there's a couple responses here.  I'm not saying that anyone's game in particular has bad portrayals.  However, I think that Orientalism isn't a nonsense concept, and that it exists within gaming as well as elsewhere.  There are a few stock answers in general to racism:  

1) It's OK if there are also some negatively stereotyped white characters.  
2) It's OK if it is fiction rather than treated as fact.
3) It's OK if it is just prejudices and misconceptions. The only real racists are those who hate and want to harm the other race.  
4) It's OK if the stereotypes are positive instead of negative.  

Now, all of these may be true in a sense that it's likely worse to be one than the other.  A black-face minstrel show with funny African-Americans is probably better than a book which claims to factually show that Africans are genetically programmed to violent crime.  But that doesn't make the minstrel show OK.  

As for (1), there are tons of undeniably racist works which have some evil white villains and even some positive minorities.  The Birth of a Nation had some white villains as well as heroic black servants who helped out the Klansman in his struggle against the mulattos and freedmen.  But no, I don't think that excuses it.

As for (2), the set of racist fiction similarly gives plenty of counter-examples.  Sax Rohmer's Fu Manchu stories were over-the-top adventure stories which no one mistook for factual portrayal.  But the stories themselves were still racist.  They were specifically were about the Yellow Peril which threatened the white world.  It's not that having a villain who is Chinese is inherently racist, but that the particular stereotypes were invented by a blatantly racist white author.  White actors portraying Fu-Manchu with taped-up eyes in the movies isn't just good fun, in my opinion.  

With (3) and (4), I think that essentialism can be worse than hatred because it is more insidious.  No, African-Americans don't generally like it when you praise how good they are at sports or their natural rhythm in dancing.  And Jews don't like it when you praise how good they are with money.  And speaking as an Asian, I don't like it when people say how I must be good at math or ask me about martial arts.  

----------------

Again, I don't know anyone's games, and I'm perfectly prepared to believe that they're all fine.  I'm just saying that none of the stock answers are sufficient or disprove it.  I do know what I read in GURPS Fantasy, and yes, I do think that it's Orientalist.  

Quote from: RPGPunditThat whole deal was pretty bizzare. But the way I see it could be one of three things:
It could be plain racism, as in, the author doesn't like asians and decided to make them dumb in the game.  I don't really think that one is it though.
It could be a simple coincidence of design, that making the "sahudese" that way had nothing to do with their outer world origin as it did with the in-setting construction of the world.  Sahud is off in the north, far away from the central action of the setting, and thus the designer could afford to have a "slightly silly" culture that he couldn't if it was central.
I don't really buy that completely either; though.  I do think that it was probably a combination of the above and the third possibility: that the author was affected by some of the prejudice about the "inscrutable orientals", about eastern society being very rigid, structured and byzantine (which they often were) and therefore incomprehensible to westerners (which of course they're not).

Maybe this is a terminology thing, but I would say that prejudice about "inscrutable orientals" is, well, racism (and Orientalism in particular).

Quote from: RPGPunditThe latter. And because its so fucking easy to make up a silly scotsman stereotype. The kilts, beards, and accents all just lend themselves to that perfectly. Its the Hatrick of prejudiced stereotypes.

Yes, Hasidic Jews only have the beards and accents.  Hats are not as funny as kilts, and clarinets are not as funny as bag-pipes.  The little curls are a bit funny... but red hair is funnier than black hair.

Then again... even if Rabbi's started wearing Kilts, I doubt non-Jewish comedians would add them to their improvisational repetoire.

Man, I shoud convert to Judaism and do stand up. Scottish + Jewish = Comedy Goldmine.

Well, Mike Myers has done both, even though his Jewish connection is only by marriage.