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In your game how different are orcs and goblins?

Orcs and Goblins are not 'basically the same' in Warhammer. They're both Goblinoids, but that's like saying Monkeys and Humans are basically the same because they're both Apes.

Guess I'm thinking mostly Fantasy Battle, but how
are they truly different?

I voted 1, but when running a more "Authentic" Medieval setting I treat kobolds, goblins, and orcs as basically the same or related. Pig-orcs may kind of exist as a sort of beastmen in the forest or something.

Voted 1, even though it's not strictly accurate. I don't do pigface orcs.  The approach varies from world to world, but I pretty much never run it that orcs and goblins are variations on the same thing. Often I'll have one or the other in the setting, but not both. They can be kind of redundant.  If the setting I'm leans towards the fairytale or medieval-authentic, I treat both goblins and trolls as kinds of fairies (as well as elves and gnomes usually). I'll usually leave orcs out of a setting like that, but if they exist, then they are instead creations of sorcery. The most recent setting I'm working on is more science-fantasy, so orcs (again as a race spawned of black magic), but no goblins.

And then obviously, if I'm running a published setting, I'll usually just go with whatever the canon is.

Quote from: Ruprecht on March 24, 2024, 09:26:04 PM
Guess I'm thinking mostly Fantasy Battle, but how are they truly different?

If memory serves, Orcs and Goblins (as well as Hobgoblins, Snotlings, Gretchins, Squigs and possibly Night Goblins) are all different species of "Greenskin". It's a fuzzy distinction though. In the real world, one of the chief ways you differentiate species from subspecies is whether they can interbreed, and Warhammer Greenskins don't breed at all, so.....shrug?

In answer 3 I said kobolds are in Warhammer. They aren't but I meant Gretchen's which fit the same niche but I couldn't remember their name.

Well there was a goblin group called Fire Kobolds in Warhammer Fantasy, but other than that no kobolds iirc

Quote from: Ruprecht on March 24, 2024, 09:26:04 PM
Guess I'm thinking mostly Fantasy Battle, but how
are they truly different?

Orcs are taller, wider and generally more massive than Goblins. Even a runty Orc is probably 2-3 times the size of a Goblin.

Orcs are far stronger and tougher than Goblins.

While Goblins are vicious in numbers, then can become scared and break when things go against them. Orcs are practically fearless, only tending to run when confused or everyone else leaves. They often come back, again and again, as they do not fear death.


You have to remember that while they are both Goblinoids, and come out of the same fungal sacs, so do Snotlings and Squigs. Squigs range from decorative accessories (hair Squigs) through food, and riding beasts. So Orcs and Goblins are cousin creatures, but quite different both physiologically and mentally. They're not like Tolkien where the line between Orcs and Goblin-Men is incredibly hazy, and may not exist.

Quote from: Ruprecht on March 24, 2024, 10:59:28 PM
In answer 3 I said kobolds are in Warhammer. They aren't but I meant Gretchen's which fit the same niche but I couldn't remember their name.

Gretchen are what Goblins are called in Warhammer 40k.

Depends on the setting. For something like Greyhawk, orcs are distinct from goblins. For Middle Earth, orc and goblin are different terms for the same thing. In my homebrew campaign there are no "orcs." There are "faerie humanoids" that are all related to one degree or another and include both "dark" and "light" types (e.g., brownie, bugbear, changeling, dryad, dwarf, elf, goblin, hobgoblin, kobold, nixie, pixie, satyr, sprite, sylph). And there are non-faerie humanoids (e.g., beastmen, giants, gnolls, lizard-men, minotaur, norkers, ogres, serpent-men, trolls).

I'm afraid it just depends on the game.  I lean towards tribes and cultures having different names.  So they call them orc over here and goblins over there.  Sometimes different variations will exist.  Still, I generally associate goblins with faerie and I don't associate orcs with that.  But if I'm running Middle Earth the goblins are just smaller orcs and if I'm runnning Yrth they're totally unrealted species.

..and then there's Wolves of God set in Anglo-Saxon England where the Orcs are undead. There's lots of room for variance.

In my setting orcs are humans mutated by the energies of the Cataclysm. Their adrenal glands are overcharged making them stronger and prone to violence. They have also been convinced that they are the descendants of the former Imperial family who ruled the world before the Cataclysm and that it is therefore their sacred duty to reclaim the world through conquest and unite it under their imperial banner once more.

Ogres are orcs who don't stop growing and eventually get dumb as rocks as more and more brain matter goes to keeping the body running (basically they die when they get too big and too stupid to breathe). Their brethren use them as living siege engines in a philosophy of "better to burn out than fade away."

Goblins are a bio-formed race of small bat-men with winged forelimbs. They were reclusive, but technologically advanced, lived about 60 years and were sexually mature by age 2. The ones most people are familiar with though are the ones the orcs captured and bred over a hundred generations (200 years) into virtually feral slave soldiers whose wings are atrophied to uselessness and are kept near starving so they can be released in Zerg-rushes against the orcs' enemies.

Cobalts are another bio-formed race of small cobalt-blue-scaled lizard-men bred to squeeze into small spaces of the sewers and undercities to eat rats and other vermin. They developed a love of engineering and kept doing that once the Beastmen Revolution overthrew the humans who had created them. In the present day they squeeze their communities into the spaces between larger folks' homes in the cities and are generally regarded as among the best engineers in the realms (debatably second only to dwarves and unmatched at jury-rigging). Their culture heroes are crafty inventors and their chief god is giant fire-breathing cobalt with mechanical wings.

There are also bio-formed boar-men who are colloquially called Porks. They're large gruff omnivores who live in small family groups and other than the punny name are pretty much uninvolved with typical Orcish shenanigans.

Quote from: ForgottenF on March 24, 2024, 10:58:00 PM
The approach varies from world to world, but I pretty much never run it that orcs and goblins are variations on the same thing. Often I'll have one or the other in the setting, but not both. They can be kind of redundant.  If the setting I'm leans towards the fairytale or medieval-authentic, I treat both goblins and trolls as kinds of fairies (as well as elves and gnomes usually). I'll usually leave orcs out of a setting like that, but if they exist, then they are instead creations of sorcery. The most recent setting I'm working on is more science-fantasy, so orcs (again as a race spawned of black magic), but no goblins.

Saved me the trouble of typing.  Yeah, mostly this.  The exception is when I treat goblins as something barely intelligent from a human perspective--monkey brains plus limited speech plus slightly better tool use with a bad attitude and fleas.

Voted one, and orcs are pig-faced imc!

I've always had orcs treat goblins as underlings or lesser beings. Orcs are usually more organized.

Orcs have always been pig faced humanoids in my campaigns. Goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears are all related but orcs are distinctly different.

Orks are their own race, descended from the Jötnar (like Men, Elves, Dwarves, Ogres and Changelings). More specifically, the Orkneas are as most (but not all) Orks are actually 'zombies' (aka Ork Spawn) raised from the dead corpses of victims of a special ritual. There are 'lesser Ork Spawn' who are called Dreg Orks that are raised from the corpses of dead domesticated animals. Orks and Dreg Orks can 'evolve' after creating a 'Hive'. Dreg Orks, Ork Spawn and Orks (biologically born) can become Ork Champions by fighting amongst each other (often in a brutal free for all where only the strongest survive).

Smarter Orks can evolve to be  Ork Shamans, Ork Witch Doctors or Ork Warlocks.

Finally, Ork Champions and Ork Shamans can evolve to be an Ork Lord, the one who leads a Hive.

Dreg Orks are the most likely to murder each other and the most feral. They are sterile and have base animal intelligence.

Female Orks do exist and can give birth to Ork children (male and female) and Half-Orks (though most Half-Orks result from rape of females of other humans like Men and Elves, though not Dwarves or Changelings).

Orkneas numbers are very low and are very long-lived (like Dwarves and Elves). They are the only ones who know the ritual to create more Ork Spawn. They are less likely to murder each other and rarely even control the Hives of Ork Spawn they create. They are basically solitary creatures and only come to together infrequently to procreate to have more of their own kind.

Goblins and Hobgoblins, on the other hand, are evil Faeries that have become corrupted. Otherwise, they pretty much are your bog-standard D&D-style Goblin: a pint-sized, pointy-eared, green-skinned murder machine. Hobgoblins are the stronger and smarter ones who grow to be much larger than Goblins (who are generally the same size as Hauflins & Gnomes). They reproduce normally.

Kobolds are evil Gnomes who fell into corruption and became twisted. They are more like Spriggans and less like D&D mini-doggo dragons.

Greetings!

Yeah, I voted with Orcs and Goblins being separate, distinct races of creatures.

In my world of Thandor, Orcs are a brutal humanoid race, alongside Humans, Elves, Dwarves, and son on. A mortal race, firmly of the earth and the mortal world. Goblins are a somewhat civilized mortal race as well, with their own society, culture, city-states, and so on. Then, I have Gremlins, which are more Faerie-based Goblin-like creatures, with magical powers and such. Hobgoblins are a mortal race, like Orcs and Goblins, though they also have their own distinct society and culture.

I like having different races, with their own distinct cultures, societies, and religions.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The one time I tried to make custom orcs they wound being standard pig face orcs who were the result of centuries of degenerated humans mating with a physical manifestation of Orcus...on the isle of orkney. yeah. just like that.

Quote from: Slipshot762 on March 26, 2024, 08:13:52 PM
The one time I tried to make custom orcs they wound being standard pig face orcs who were the result of centuries of degenerated humans mating with a physical manifestation of Orcus...on the isle of orkney. yeah. just like that.

That's as bad a pun as Games Workshop having The Isle Of Wights off the coast of Albion.

I approve.

Piggy faces!  In my campaign, Orcs are a separate race.  Goblins and Hobgoblins are related, and much like in LOTR, Hobgoblins (Uruks) dominate goblins when interacting.

Quote from: David Johansen on March 24, 2024, 11:56:43 PM
I'm afraid it just depends on the game.  I lean towards tribes and cultures having different names.  So they call them orc over here and goblins over there.  Sometimes different variations will exist.  Still, I generally associate goblins with faerie and I don't associate orcs with that.  But if I'm running Middle Earth the goblins are just smaller orcs and if I'm runnning Yrth they're totally unrealted species.

Agreed. Depends on the setting, so I can't really vote.

Orcs are pig faced and fully material, goblins are fey creatures which are more material than other fey, but still a lot less material than regular creatures.

Material is probably the wrong way to describe that, but I can't think of somethign better, hopefully yall get what I'm saying.

I've never had orcs and goblins related in any way.  Until Warhammer 40k decided to have only one "essence" to explain their greenskins (that's more realistic for a science fiction campaign), I'd never heard of anyone making them the same things at all.  I'd argue that anyone doing that has derived it from WH40k.

I will point out that orc-goblin crossbreeds are referenced in AD&D, but I'm not sure that they are statted out anywhere.  In any event, they are clearly a crossbreed in the same vein of the familiar half-orc in human territories.

Of course they're different, and hobgoblins are different from goblins, at least in the MM and whatnot.

Quote from: Venka on March 27, 2024, 11:56:26 AM
I've never had orcs and goblins related in any way.  Until Warhammer 40k decided to have only one "essence" to explain their greenskins (that's more realistic for a science fiction campaign), I'd never heard of anyone making them the same things at all.  I'd argue that anyone doing that has derived it from WH40k.

Tolkien's orcs were also called goblins.

Quote from: J.R.R. Tolkien, Preface to The HobbitOrc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places [in The Hobbit] but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds).

Quote from: Zenoguy3 on March 27, 2024, 12:42:43 PM
Tolkien's orcs were also called goblins.

Quote from: J.R.R. Tolkien, Preface to The HobbitOrc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places [in The Hobbit] but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds).

Great find, I had no idea. In that conception, they are literally the same creature with different names (not like WH40K, which has them sorted by sizes and roles but with the same fungal origin).

The first orc I saw is green and not pig-faced, so that may have influenced my image of an orc.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ojIQbg75MRY/YP3Z237h6gI/AAAAAAAALvw/fsy8I5QX5bM_r2nf1mqIKHtalpIT0Fu8ACLcBGAsYHQ/s744/Orcs.jpg)
They look more like alligators, right? (The picture is from the D&D cartoon.)

Quote from: SHARK on March 26, 2024, 08:22:03 AM
I like having different races, with their own distinct cultures, societies, and religions.

I guess that's the question. How do you make the culture distinct. I can handle the religious part but culture m, well the orcs are fighting and dead before I can get any cultural details out.

Quote from: Ruprecht on March 27, 2024, 03:58:58 PM

Quote from: SHARK on March 26, 2024, 08:22:03 AM
I like having different races, with their own distinct cultures, societies, and religions.

I guess that's the question. How do you make the culture distinct. I can handle the religious part but culture m, well the orcs are fighting and dead before I can get any cultural details out.

Greetings!

Yes, Ruprecht! Making cultures distinct and interesting can be a challenge. Doing so also requires some good amount of planning, thought, and work. So, for example, I have in my Thandor world, a culture of Orcs known as the Khordron Horde. The Khordron Horde Orcs are savage and brutal, though they have also embraced advanced forms of technology, knowledge, organization, and culture. These developments, in turn, have cascade effects which have combined to make the Khordron Horde Orcs, as a nation, a kingdom, and a culture, very distinct from other Orc cultures. The Khordron Orcs have embraced advanced, industrial-scale agriculture, Institutional Slavery, organized technology, and an organized, hierarchical religion. Along with these changes, the Khordron Horde Orcs have also developed a more advanced and organized system of government and laws. Having a huge, unified, powerful Orc kingdom that is more or less High-Medieval makes for a very different kind of "Orc." Blend all of that with customs of eating humans, mass slavery, ritual sacrifice, gladiator arenas, and a society that glorifies the military, and martial, masculine values at every step, and that creates a radically different kind of Orc culture. Players encountering such NPC Khordron characters, or visiting a Khordron Orc city, are in store for a very different kind of experience.

I have another Orc culture, that is more rural based, not quite as sophisticated, that is more based upon Nordic cultures, themes, and values. Of course, these Orcs are also less organized, somewhat more tribal, and yet also highly skilled as seafarers and ship-builders. They live mostly in fortified villages and towns, as opposed to cities. They have agriculture, but it is more diffused, and not as organized. However, they are much more focused on seafaring, river trade, river travel, and fishing, than other kinds of Orcs.

A third prominent Orc culture in Thandor is a culture of Orcs that primarily live in subterranean realms, living in fortified villages and towns, though which are dug and formed from tunnels, caverns, dungeons, and chambers. These subterranean Orcs are also interbred and mixed with humanoid insects, which provides some insect-like features, insect-like mutations, and a culture which is insect-themed as a whole.

Each different culture worships a common religion, composed of a large pantheon of deities. However, each culture embraces some particular favourite deities and their corresponding cults, and emphasize them to different degrees wwithin their individual culture.

These three different Orc cultures embrace some similarities, for sure. However, there are numerous distinctions and differences, from religious spirituality, to social customs, breeding, mating rituals, government and social organization, that serves to make them considerably different from each other.

Does that help, Ruprecht?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I make a distinction between the two: While goblins are small mischief makers (albeit generally very sadistic ones), orcs are simply demonic and don't naturally procreate. Moreover, you can reason with goblins, but it's nigh impossible to reason with orcs. I always disliked pig-faced orcs, even back in the days of first edition.

Quote from: SHARK on March 28, 2024, 08:59:28 PM
Does that help, Ruprecht?

Yes it helps a lot. I was thinking to narrowly.

In one of my early game design attempts, Bare Bones (no not that one, I used the name first but never really published) I differentiated between the warlike but disciplined Orcs and the evil and chaotic Boarks who the orcs hate for giving them a bad reputation.

My fantasy interest have leaned more towards Shadow of the Demon Lord and it's take is that Goblins are exiled line of faeries while orcs are a magically created (and enslaved) line descending from the jotun. They have less in common in this setting than in many others.

I like Pig-Face Orcs!

But every campaign world has different stories to tell so I'm happy in some games to have Goblins / Orcs / Ogres be the same creature at different stages of growth.

Or totally separate races.

Depends on the world and what works best for that setting.