There are a ton of RPG settings, particularly in recent years, where the emphasis of the setting is on being "pessimistic" or "dark". WFRP's setting, Midnight, even 4e's "points of light" all presume a world that either has gone or is going to shit, and there are lots of similar examples.
Now, obviously, there's a lot of utility to this type of setting, it gives PCs a lot to do. And there's obviously no use in playing in a Utopia where there's nothing wrong.
But it seems to me that designing "dark" settings is a lot like writing "dark" music. Its much easier to be both serious and evocative if you've made a song depressing, its easier to make without coming off as cheesy or shallow; whereas "cheery" songs tend to be of little brain, as it were. HOWEVER, writing a really GOOD "optimistic" song is both much harder and will end up being much more powerful than any depressing song can be. Ode to Joy is powerful because it is both inspiring and brilliant.
Do you think it might be the same with RPG settings? Is there any "optimistic" RPG setting out there that is much better in your opinion than the darker settings, in terms of quality and evocative concepts?
I think this is part of the secret of both Star Trek and Doctor Who's success, for example. Both have a basic optimism about things, that good people doing good things will save the world.
RPGPundit
Yeah, that's a tough one and something that often crosses my mind when coming into contact with some efforts from a few core forgists.
The day that one of the luminaries of the 'setting matters' crowd creates a game where the central theme is optimistic and positive reinforcement is used for something other than being a wanker or wallowing in "woe is me" nonsense is the day that i give them the benifit of the doubt.
Dark isn't needful to good gaming. But a setting with conflict is.
That need not be brutal and violent conflict, either. Violent conflict is pretty easy to grok, and easy to run. But a purely political game works just as well if done correctly.
But conflict of some kind is essential to interesting plots, be it in fiction or in games.
Dark settings provide for more prevalence of conflict.
Quote from: RPGPundit;307142Do you think it might be the same with RPG settings? Is there any "optimistic" RPG setting out there that is much better in your opinion than the darker settings, in terms of quality and evocative concepts?
I think this is part of the secret of both Star Trek and Doctor Who's success, for example. Both have a basic optimism about things, that good people doing good things will save the world.
RPGPundit
Whilst both those settings are intrinsically optimistic that is due to the protagonists not the world. Take Dr Who. All his race are dead he has no home is destined to live alone and every friend or companion he meets eventually leaves or gets killed. Evereywhere he goes there is a being trying to kill the human race or take over the universe. All in all that is pretty dark.
Trek is a bit different but then Trek as has been said hasn't really ever made the transition to a successful RPG. Even teh trek-verse is really a points of light universe. They set very few stories in the core where Federation technology and power can resolve issues easily.
As an aside I don't think 4E PoL is about creating a dark world it's just the easiest way to allow adventurers to kill everything they meet with no leagal ramifications. I mean imagine if the LG Lord of Blahblah was enlightened enough to give orcs basic rights in his kingdom on the basis they are sentient beings, then maybe walking into the orc camp and killing everyone migth have consequences beyond loading the cart with bags of silver coins and second hand armour.
Star Trek was the most optimistic game setting I have ever played in. Every generation has that shiney part to it. Even when someone tried to run Dark Star Trek (ala a war vs the Kzinti), we were still "the bright and shiney" good guys and the world was still an okay place.
Pendragon is (generally) a bright and shiney setting, with bright and shiney characters. There is a generally positive outlook in most campaigns I have been in. Even when we were in the "downfall" period, we were still upbeat that we could "fix it" and save the kingdom. (Okay, we didn't, but we got to take the sword back to The Lake).
Stalking the Night and Fringeworthy all have a positive spin in things. Players are confident in the world and that things will get better if they just fix this current situation. Even Fringeworthy's basking in the late 80s cold war didn't make it dark.
Okay that is the ones that I have played.
Bright games work. Even if you have a "Dark Invader" or a "post-breaking of the world" in the setting, optimism helps the characters overcome the challanges and think there is more to things than just killing things.
Dark Settings allow for more (and easy to run) conflict. So they are "the clutch" for a lot of people. I think old school gamers, and to be honest, most gamers who are not into "The Angst", want optimism (of some degree).
I'd say tons of games ara optimistic. Star Wars (at least the original setting) and classic superhero games work in a world there is good and bad and good pretty much going to win in the end.
If I recall Cartoon Action Hour was pretty optimistic in nature.
Regards,
David R
I would say StarCluster is optimistic, and in spite of some horrifying happenings, so is Cold Space/FTL Now.
-clash
Hm, Star Trek's what I'd already thought of before getting to the bottom of the OP.
Maybe Flashing Blades and En Garde could count. Neither of these is a recent game--and the 17th century isn't exactly a peaceful place--but the PCs aren't necessarily fighting against darkness and wallowing in muck. IIRC a lot of the motivation (in En Garde certainly, but I believe in FB as well) is advancement of one's career and reputation.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;307200Hm, Star Trek's what I'd already thought of before getting to the bottom of the OP.
Maybe Flashing Blades and En Garde could count. Neither of these is a recent game--and the 17th century isn't exactly a peaceful place--but the PCs aren't necessarily fighting against darkness and wallowing in muck. IIRC a lot of the motivation (in En Garde certainly, but I believe in FB as well) is advancement of one's career and reputation.
En Garde barely counts as an RPG, if it even does. I'm certain one could run an RPG using it as the combat system... but is it across the hazy line?
Albedo is another "positive outlook" setting, but the latest edition misses that entirely.
Quote from: aramis;307151.....................
Dark settings provide for more prevalence of conflict.
Not really true.
People just assume that - because that what they're used to seeing and thinking.
When you look at all Five Years with of
BABYLON 5 - that was a very optimistic story. However , there were some very dark forces working towards destroying the good guys and hope plenty of times throughout the show's run.
Same thing for versions of
STAR TREK. Plenty "optimistic" in its various incarnations....but still quite 'dark forces' working against the good guys at times. (especially during DS9 years)
This is what I was trying to go for in my World Of Brightness idea thread a while back. There can be hope and a potential good future ahead - but still can be plenty of conflict, combat, and violence along the way to that better future. (whatever it might be)
- Ed C.
Bab 5 is a pretty dark setting. It's a dark and violent setting with a strong glimmer of hope, and nearly everyone needed to make it turn out right being unreasonably unwilling to make any decent effort to do the right thing.
DS9 was a much darker version of Trek than TNG or TOS. That's also why a lot of people did not like it... it was too dark a view. (Some of the darker episodes of TNG show the Brennan and Braga darkish twists, too.)
TNE, DS9, and Voyager Trek isn't that optimistic a setting, anyway... it's a setting with a communistic human-vulcan driven "federation" which seems to be filled with scheming bastards and incompetent admirals, and lots of "escape into fantasy to avoid humdrum" types in starfleet. Pretty grim, if one is even slightly in a libertarian viewpoint.
I see RPGs as an inherently optimistic medium. You can try to make things better, and have a reasonable chance of success. Even if you don't succeed on some grand scale that makes the whole world a better place (a scale I could never really relate to) you can do alright for yourself and a few friends. Maybe your kingdom or whatever.
I kind of like the opposite trend outside of RPGs... the one where things go from bad to worse. Loved Hamlet.
As for RPG settings... how about Star Wars?
Quote from: aramis;307218Babyon 5 is a pretty dark setting. It's a dark and violent setting with a strong glimmer of hope, and nearly everyone needed to make it turn out right being unreasonably unwilling to make any decent effort to do the right thing.
Oh , I very much disagree.
There were
'dark' individuals and
'dark' groups plotting and scheming - but the background and the universe itself was extremely hopeful and optimistic.
Any story setting thsat says if you just work together as a community to achieve good results - but you can still retain your individuality - then that extremely positive and hopeful setting.
What was the end rwesult of it all?
At least 10 years of peace because of the Interstellar Alliance and what the heroes did - not just the main 7 or so , but their dozens and hubreds of allies and friends.
Hell, even after the "Great Burn" that devastated Earth - there is a Ranger disguised as a Monk helping to bring back humans back to the stars and civilization. That is extremely hopeful - especially when you remember the framing device for that story.
Most of the aliens that were recurrinbg or continuing characters on the show called humanity bewildering and confusing - but in the end , humans wre considered a mostly positive force for good. In particular the ongoing thought that humans tend to makle communiuties and frioendhips even with those quote different from themselves. That attitude spilled over to the other races as a positive example.
- Ed C.
I tend to dislike settings that assume you will fail, and anything you do is only temporary. Prime examples: CoC/Delta Green, Midnight.
One little tweak makes this sort of setting from the worst to the very best in my book: chance of success. The universe can still remain very threatening and oppressive, but giving the PCs the chance (and responsibility) to be the ones that make a difference between light and darkness fills the game with awesome for me.
Quote from: jibbajibba;307156Whilst both those settings are intrinsically optimistic that is due to the protagonists not the world. Take Dr Who. All his race are dead he has no home is destined to live alone and every friend or companion he meets eventually leaves or gets killed. Evereywhere he goes there is a being trying to kill the human race or take over the universe. All in all that is pretty dark.
Yes, but the essential difference that makes it "not dark" is that the fundamental outlook is optimistic. Compare that to, say, WFRP, where the overall feeling is that the world you're in is doomed to be consumed by Chaos eventually.
QuoteAs an aside I don't think 4E PoL is about creating a dark world it's just the easiest way to allow adventurers to kill everything they meet with no leagal ramifications. I mean imagine if the LG Lord of Blahblah was enlightened enough to give orcs basic rights in his kingdom on the basis they are sentient beings, then maybe walking into the orc camp and killing everyone migth have consequences beyond loading the cart with bags of silver coins and second hand armour.
Let me note that I'm not saying "dark sucks" or "PoL sucks". I'm just asking whether while it might be harder to make a really good setting that was fundamentally optimistic, whether there might not also be something refreshing about it and whether that inspiration wouldn't make for great setting material too?
RPGpundit
Glorantha always seemed an optimistic setting to me, for example.
Earthdawn is optimistic.
SkyRealms of Jorune is optimistic.
Regards,
David R
Aren't most Pulp settings optimistic?
Heroes taking ACTION to oppose Evil.
Basicly the Heroes CAN make a difference.
Those who stand up, SUCCEED against great odds.
*One of the reasons I favor Pulp style games.
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Quote from: PunditI think this is part of the secret of both Star Trek and Doctor Who's success, for example. Both have a basic optimism about things, that good people doing good things will save the world.
I have been reading thorugh this thread and all the posts. I have also looked at the examples and the objections.
I think 'Optimistic vs morally ambiguous' is more what you are aiming for, here. Dr. WHO can be seen as a very 'points of light' setting, while being optimistic. As was mentioned, there is a lot of evil and darkness there. It is not the % of good vs evil that makes a setting optimistic, it is more the ability to have optimistic protaganists.
What I think makes for a 'dark' setting is a lack of that ability, such as in Moorcock's Elric, where even the good guys are anti-heroes.
Quote from: aramis;307218DS9 was a much darker version of Trek than TNG or TOS. That's also why a lot of people did not like it... it was too dark a view. (Some of the darker episodes of TNG show the Brennan and Braga darkish twists, too.)
That's exactly why DS9 has always been my favorite flavor of Trek.
Quote from: Caesar Slaad;307227I tend to dislike settings that assume you will fail, and anything you do is only temporary. Prime examples: CoC/Delta Green, Midnight.
One little tweak makes this sort of setting from the worst to the very best in my book: chance of success. The universe can still remain very threatening and oppressive, but giving the PCs the chance (and responsibility) to be the ones that make a difference between light and darkness fills the game with awesome for me.
Couldn't have said it better myself, so I won't :)
Quote from: LordVreeg;307271I have been reading thorugh this thread and all the posts. I have also looked at the examples and the objections.
I think 'Optimistic vs morally ambiguous' is more what you are aiming for, here. Dr. WHO can be seen as a very 'points of light' setting, while being optimistic. As was mentioned, there is a lot of evil and darkness there. It is not the % of good vs evil that makes a setting optimistic, it is more the ability to have optimistic protaganists.
What I think makes for a 'dark' setting is a lack of that ability, such as in Moorcock's Elric, where even the good guys are anti-heroes.
I think that these are two slightly different, though undoubtedly connected, issues.
RPGPundit
Part of a setting feeling dark is the setting being evil-prone.
Part of it is the apparent lack of hope for protagonists to make a difference.
Part of it is the over-the-top feel of the antagonists.
Two of the three is enough for me to consider it a dark setting.
WFRP: Evil prone, lack of apparent hope.
B5: Evil Prone, over-the-top antagonists.
Dark Heresy/40K: all three...
Yup, so what constitutes an optimistic setting, and do you know of any examples of them in RPG settings? Let's ignore licensed settings, because I think that this is an interesting point; I'd bet that licensed settings you could find some optimistic ones (some have already been named here) but can you find optimism in settings designed by gamers?
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;307461Yup, so what constitutes an optimistic setting, and do you know of any examples of them in RPG settings? Let's ignore licensed settings, because I think that this is an interesting point; I'd bet that licensed settings you could find some optimistic ones (some have already been named here) but can you find optimism in settings designed by gamers?
RPGPundit
I think that an optimistic setting is one in which the actions of PCs matter both in the long and the short term, so nothing's predetermined and you can have hope.
Again, a good example is Glorantha: you can play with a PC in any side of the Hero Wars, and nothing is decided.
Quote from: RPGPundit;307461Yup, so what constitutes an optimistic setting, and do you know of any examples of them in RPG settings? Let's ignore licensed settings, because I think that this is an interesting point; I'd bet that licensed settings you could find some optimistic ones (some have already been named here) but can you find optimism in settings designed by gamers?
RPGPundit
Does my
Untold Stories (of the Great Flood) (http://home.earthlink.net/~djackson24/Delbert5.htm) count?
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Toon comes to mind, Pundit.
SJ: GURPS Yrth, TFT's Cidri
Greg Stafford: Pendragon, Glorantha (especially in Hero Quest)
DragonRaid RPG (It is a "Christian" RPG.)
Dō! (Players are Fixing the universe...)
Castle Falkenstein
David Dunham's Pendragon Pass (http://www.poppyware.com/dunham/pdp.html)? (Can it be considered separate from Glorantha?)
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Pendragon is optimistic except for the last part. And even then, there is hope.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;307461Yup, so what constitutes an optimistic setting . . .
I would say that an optimistic setting is one in which 'good,' however it's defined, is dominant or on the rise.
Quote from: RPGPundit;307461. . . and do you know of any examples of them in RPG settings?
Star*Drive strikes me as fairly optimistic.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;307200Maybe Flashing Blades and En Garde could count. Neither of these is a recent game--and the 17th century isn't exactly a peaceful place--but the PCs aren't necessarily fighting against darkness and wallowing in muck. IIRC a lot of the motivation (in En Garde certainly, but I believe in FB as well) is advancement of one's career and reputation.
I think it depends on what you use for inspiration.
If it's the Disney version of
The Three Musketeers, or the first half of either the Lester or Sidney movies, then yes: good triumphs over evil and the boy gets the girl.
If you draw from the novels, then it can be much darker. The complete saga of the Musketeers is quite grim.
I would say that an optimistic setting is one where noble sentiments are seen as a positive force, and have advantage over base actions. Also, a setting where evil is not bound to "inevitably triumph".
RPGPundit