This is a post from another gaming board.
I am curious what people have to say about the playstyle, and gm style hinted at in this post.
I am NOT trying to belittle or glorify anyone in the post.
Just want to hear peoples thoughts.
Keep it positive :)
"Our party has decided we don't like how controlling our DM is so in order to get her to loosen our chains a portion of the party has decided we will split from the group and become evil. However we have a small problem. Throughout the campain the DM has introduced several level 20 character (a mage, dragon disciple, a neice of bahamut and a daughter of palor) that could easily massacre us. I am not the most experienced player as I have only been playing on and off for the past few years. I was wondering what is the best way to "break" my ranger( lvl4)/human werewolf (lvl3) from cross classing/presteige classing to make him the best I can so that he can actually stand a chance. He fights using 2 silver claw guantlets that he keeps on his hands with a partial shift at all times. I will be back in a few hours from work to join the conversation just hoping to get a few tips before then because I have to have a plan by tomorrow. Thanks much and I apologize if this is the wrong section I just joined.
oh and also we are playing 3.5"
Quote from: Bill;591046Keep it positive :)
Honestly it's hard reading the post.
Adressing problems with the DM (controlling) in the game world (by going evil of all things) instead of talking to him in RL (you know, like adults would)? Check.
Idiot DM waving around Mary Sues? Check.
Confrontational DM v. Players bullshit (I want to be able to take out the Mary Sues!)? Check.
Optimization fudge bullshit (I have a ranger/werewolf! Should I multiclass as a killfuck shoulshitter)? Check.
The game is the rules; the rules are the game? Check.
Honestly. Trying to stay positive but ... I am going to fail. I'll pass on this one.
Sounds like a broken play group, where the first step is for everyone involved to have an adult conversation about what type of gaming experience they want, and start from scratch.
While it is a bit hard to pass judgment while having only the information from player's point of view (how much exactly are the 20th level uber characters involved in the campaign? Are they chilling in the general area doing 20th level character things or following the party?) but the group sounds like it has problems.
Sitting down and talking things out would be a very good start.
There's not enough information to say much of anything. However, I lean towards being against the player in this case.
"We will split from the group and become evil" always sends up red flags to me. There is a certain kind of player who does this, and I don't enjoy playing with that type. They tend to categorize everything as railroading even when it isn't and just generally try to be disruptive. Normal people who aren't enjoying a game quit playing to do something else. Only absolute fucktards keep playing with the intent of merely fucking with the GM.
I think it's notable that turning evil has no characterization ramifications to this player and his ranger is defined by what weapons he uses.
There's definitely not enough information as to whether the high level characters represent some GM-PCs or not. I will say that the type of player I'm referring to above tends to view any high level NPCs as GM-PCs and set off on a self destructive path to "teach the GM a lesson."
My advice is: keep doing what you're doing. A bad god-modding DM and bad passive aggressive players who can't work things out like adults? They're perfect for each other.
Quote from: TomatoMalone;591090My advice is: keep doing what you're doing. A bad god-modding DM and bad passive aggressive players who can't work things out like adults? They're perfect for each other.
True to a point, but that would not really help those people :)
- Doing something to rebel against a GMs style by undermining game
- Super NPCs that completely overshadow the party
- Weird, nonsensical multi-classing
- Powergaming
Reads like a television show that wants to depict a game, but not really. Drop them all off at an inner-city playground and forget to go back?
GM should stop the game and join the rest to find an older, mellower GM, and play in a campaign for six months or so without any of the above. Then go back, restart campaign. Learn from someone else by doing.
Sounds like a bad reality TV program almost. :)
Seriously though, I would be happy to DM for them, lol. Not really this group would give me a migraine and I don't think I have enough pills for that.
Quote from: flyingcircus;591093Sounds like a bad reality TV program almost. :)
Seriously though, I would be happy to DM for them, lol. Not really this group would give me a migraine and I don't think I have enough pills for that.
C'mon...your Avatar is the most omnipotent character in existence that has no super powers.
If he can use Karate on Superman effectively, surely you can DM for those guys.
Quote from: Bill;591091True to a point, but that would not really help those people :)
The only thing that will help
those people is growing up and acting like adults.
Quote from: Bill;591091True to a point, but that would not really help those people :)
Professional counseling might not be able to help these people!
Fire the GM.
Yes, there are 20th level NPC's with retinues. Why would they bother a 5th lvl APL (Average party Level) group? As a GM, the only reason I can see, is if the players are directly threatening the holdings of the High level NPCs. THat would attract the attention of the high level NPC's.
Most of the time, the high level NPCs would be busy trying to figure out what other high level NPCs would be doing. Going after the little fish will automatically make you smaller, considering all the other big players will make moves while the major NPCs are distracted and chasing down little fry.
That's totally bogus in my book. Your GM is not worthy. Find a better GM!
Quote from: Gabriel2;591078There's definitely not enough information as to whether the high level characters represent some GM-PCs or not. I will say that the type of player I'm referring to above tends to view any high level NPCs as GM-PCs and set off on a self destructive path to "teach the GM a lesson."
Oh yeah I had one of those once. I wasn't even the GM, I was playing in a game without classes or levels, but I was arguably one of the most combat-competent characters at the table, a sinister warlock with a penchant for using spirits to speed up his attacks (they'd literally get out and push).
This luminary sat down, looked me in the eye, and said "I'm going to kill your character". No amount of careful and patient explanation could convince this guy that it wasn't a competition, and that killing other characters usually wrecks games unless you signed up for a little PvP action in the first place. It was all about being top dog, alpha male, lord of the manor.
Needless to say brain trust wasn't invited to the next game.
The classes & race combo's & levels are like the things some old school players make up to mock newer editions.
Sounds like the DM is a dick & the game is not one which would interest me, though the players might be salvaged.
It comes across as adversarial, which is an attitude I got when I had some 3e era players come into my older D&D campaigns. That is just a personal observation, rather than a sweeping statement.
They're either 12 years old or it's a joke.
Keeping it positive:
I remember playing in this playstyle before. Eventually I parted ways with it, much to our mutual pleasure. They seem to be enjoying it about as much as I remember my table's enjoyed it. I wish them the best and many more sessions with their kind of fun!
:cheerleader:
Quote from: Bill;591091True to a point, but that would not really help those people :)
You assume they are unhappy and need our 'help'. :)
It's a charitable point of view though, and that's what makes you one of the best of us. :D
Quote from: noisms;591188They're either 12 years old or it's a joke.
I truly would love to believe this.
Yeah, that's a seriously strange way to handle this problem...
RPGPundit
I admire their spunk in wanting to hunt down the 20th lvl npcs; big game hunting!
Quote from: Bill;591046human werewolf (lvl3)... 2 silver claw guantlets that he keeps on his hands with a partial shift at all times... oh and also we are playing 3.5"
Does not look right, rules-wise. Joke, kid, or not the droids your looking for.
Quote from: Opaopajr;591195You assume they are unhappy and need our 'help'. :)
It's a charitable point of view though, and that's what makes you one of the best of us. :D
I had not considered that anyone could enjoy that style of play.
Quote from: Bill;591046Our party has decided we don't like how controlling our DM is so in order to get her to loosen our chains...
Problem #1 - What 'chains'? 'Controlling' as in railroading? Domineering? 'Plays my character for me'? Or 'has final authority on which books can be used and which cannot'?
Obviously, different issues would lead to different solutions.
Quote from: Bill;591046...a portion of the party has decided we will split from the group and become evil.
...that being said, this simply isn't one of them. If you want to split off and 'become evil' because you think it might be fun, that makes sense. It makes you a jerk, but still understandible. If you decide to do it because it will in some way change your GM's behavior - well that just makes you shortsighted.
Quote from: Bill;591046Throughout the campain the DM has introduced several level 20 character ... that could easily massacre us.
Or, perhaps - "Hi, I am a player who doesn't yet 'get' the whole GM concept."
Dear player, if said GM wanted a 20th level werewolf hunter with immortality and perfect hair to swoop in on a white pegasus and mess up your day, well there's absolutely jack you can do about it. They don't even need to have such a character rolled up when you think about it, let alone have introduced you to it.
Also some of the 'threats' described above sounded on the 'bad guy' side. If it were me and I was feeling domineering, I'd find some way to press those evil PCs into the service of one of those devils. 'Chains' indeed...
Anyway, you can't beat the GM, period. Even starting to dream up ways to do it is a mistake. You're supposed to be working together, and if you're not, there's no 'in game' manuver that can resolve it. As far as I know, anyway.
Quote from: Bill;591046I was wondering what is the best way to "break" my ranger( lvl4)/human werewolf (lvl3) from cross classing/presteige classing to make him the best I can so that he can actually stand a chance.
This makes me die a little inside. That poor ranger. He has no identity. No goals of his own. The question I'd have a player ask is 'what sorts of choices are ahead of me that can make this character even more awesome', not 'how do I break it'.
Sad, sad, sad.
Some people are happiest when they are arguing. If there's no discord and struggle, they will create it and thrive. In my experience they tend to be "oh and also we are playing 3.5." Not my style of game, but since I conveniently already do not like 3.x/PF we don't have to travel similar circles this way. Win, win.
As far as I know, it was a serious post. It's pretty far from any gaming experience I have had. The closest I ever got to that was one of my very first gaming groups that had a dm and player that fought all the time. Instigated mainly by the dm's annoying uber pet npcs.
But the 'beat the dm' mentality is strange to me.
Quote from: Bill;591637As far as I know, it was a serious post. It's pretty far from any gaming experience I have had. The closest I ever got to that was one of my very first gaming groups that had a dm and player that fought all the time. Instigated mainly by the dm's annoying uber pet npcs.
But the 'beat the dm' mentality is strange to me.
I wish I could say so myself. But as I detailed in some other post here somewhere (and won't bore you with again), I have even seen 'beat the dm' go so far as 'kill whatever character Bob plays when he is not the dm'. So it does happen.
But as Opaopajr said, most people grow out of it eventually.
I've seen this style before. It wasn't from a 12 year old either. It was an early 20s player. Everything from the "I'm going to beat the GM" and "how do I augment my character so I stand the best chance".
Sadly the only methods to break this are: the whole group gets a new GM, one with many years of experience. Or the group continues playing until either they grow out of it or they part ways because one day "this game sucks!"
Words and advice, unless it's advice on how the player can twink his character out to the max, will be ignored and forgotten. Telling the player his style sucks, even if you say it nicely, results in a no-win argument.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;591049Sounds like a broken play group, where the first step is for everyone involved to have an adult conversation about what type of gaming experience they want, and start from scratch.
Fairly certain no adults are involved.
Opinions? Everything wrong with D&D in one post? :D
There was a great series of posts a while back (unfortunately from /tg, if I remember right) where some player got frustrated with his DM's railroading and 2-D characters, and started acting out. Now, I would LOVE to have someone 'act out' like he did in a group I was running, because he turned the game into an elaborate intrigue, complete with playing various NPCs off against eachother and another player, and playing at international politics. He even managed to di it while playing 4E.
If "turn evil" translates to "become engaged in the game world," more power to this guy. I would rather have players who are trying to wreck up the setting than passive ones.
Quote from: fectin;591694If "turn evil" translates to "become engaged in the game world," more power to this guy. I would rather have players who are trying to wreck up the setting than passive ones.
I wish it were so as well. Players engaged in the setting, even if with covert plots (depending if table dynamics even allow that at all), make for a better play experience, IME. In basic terms, caring about the game and its world matters. But I doubt that'd be the case here; and here's how I know why:
Tragically the immediate go-to solution was how to twink out his character sheet so as to gank the highest tier NPC -- and I guess replace him or her. "If I assassinate the king, therefore I'm immediately made king! Then the kingdom is mine and I'll get away with it!" or similar weird magical thinking must be going on there. You'd think offering your services clandestinely to the closest aligned patron would be the smart thing to do. Bide your time, find a friend, and become more powerful and important. Simple, no? But their table paradigm sounds like the painfully familiar "any NPC and setting rules holds down my character from my chaotic evil power fantasies!"
And if you're remotely familiar with such a table you know exactly where this is going to lead.
But really, some of them are happy with this. They really are. They cannot conceive the game being structured outside of a directly competitive hyper-aggro environment. All is war, and if it's not you're not trying. Anything less immediately reads: boring, better off playing competitive CCG, MMO, FPS, etc. For them, this is fun -- even down to their bitterest of complaints (of which sometimes they even get what they want that way, too). This is their happy place. I say 'let them be happy.'