I'm currently playing in a 2E campaign that will go through next summer at the least, but I'm also contemplating starting up a 2E Greyhawk game and running some of the old classics. Here's the element of the whole thing I'm wrestling with:
I'm a 53 year old 'Grog' who started with the boxed editions and AD&D back in 1979. I have zero tolerance for SJW's, snowflakes, and the way the hobby seems to be going. I have no interest in dealing with those folks even in a Session 0 setting, much less having to kick them out of an established game later. Anyone trying to claim 'most offended status' with me is going to run home to mama in tears by the time I'm done.
I'm thinking that advertising for an 'old school, 2E game' might filter out a large number of potential problems. In fact, it might even net me zero players, given that most folks seem to be interested in 5E and little else.
But would it totally backfire on me to actually come right out and say something like: "This will be an 'old school' DnD campaign aimed at older players, using old school tropes. Younger and/or inexperienced players willing to embrace a more OSR experience are welcome, but SJW's, the thin-skinned, and easily offended won't find this campaign to their liking."
Too heavy handed and brutally honest for the modern world, or not? These days I hesitate even trying to put a table together with strangers.
Direct is good, but those who wish to be offended might take offense and create needless trouble.
Just saying "2E" will probably weed out most of the people you want to avoid.
Even when running 5E games I find that adding something about playing with old school sensibilities tends to discourage the thin-skinned since they associate it with challenge, lethality, and politics they don't like.
I think "This will be an 'old school' DnD campaign aimed at older players, using old school tropes. Younger and/or inexperienced players willing to embrace a more OSR experience are welcome." does the job without inviting anyone to cancel you.
It's far better to be up front about it. We once brought a new guy into the group to run Rifts for us and he said he was cool with whatever we wanted to do. So 2 other guys and I made hard-core anti-D-Bee types (not actually Coalition folks) and he spent the whole first session punishing us for that. It was the first and last game that guy played with us.
"Old school sensibilities."
I like that- I think it makes the point.
Quote from: Dark Train on January 13, 2022, 01:31:03 PM
Just saying "2E" will probably weed out most of the people you want to avoid.
Agree. And if you say something like RAW or by the book, then you don't need to entertain ideas about nu pronouns or X cards because those things are not in the 2E materials.
Quote from: jmarso on January 13, 2022, 12:32:07 PM
But would it totally backfire on me to actually come right out and say something like: "This will be an 'old school' DnD campaign aimed at older players, using old school tropes. Younger and/or inexperienced players willing to embrace a more OSR experience are welcome, but SJW's, the thin-skinned, and easily offended won't find this campaign to their liking."
Too heavy handed and brutally honest for the modern world, or not? These days I hesitate even trying to put a table together with strangers.
Keep the phrasing positive. Omit the bolded part , it would deter a bunch of regular people as well as the ones you are trying to deter. Don't say 'you won't like this', but you can say stuff like 'old school tropes', '1970s style D&D' etc. You can eg include a summary of your house rules if you like.
Quote from: Dark Train on January 13, 2022, 01:31:03 PM
I think "This will be an 'old school' DnD campaign aimed at older players, using old school tropes. Younger and/or inexperienced players willing to embrace a more OSR experience are welcome." does the job without inviting anyone to cancel you.
I agree.
(a) You don't want to encourage people to attack you.
(b) Negative framing will deter people who will worry you're an obsessed anti-SJW rather than someone who just wants to play a good game of D&D.
SJWs don't actually play RPGs much, they much prefer to roam the Internet monitoring for Wrongthink. So an ad for an old school D&D game is very unlikely to attract any SJWs looking to play. But an ad with 'no SJWs' in it is a red rag to a bull.
Quote from: jmarso on January 13, 2022, 12:32:07 PM
I'm currently playing in a 2E campaign that will go through next summer at the least, but I'm also contemplating starting up a 2E Greyhawk game and running some of the old classics. Here's the element of the whole thing I'm wrestling with:
I'm a 53 year old 'Grog' who started with the boxed editions and AD&D back in 1979. I have zero tolerance for SJW's, snowflakes, and the way the hobby seems to be going. I have no interest in dealing with those folks even in a Session 0 setting, much less having to kick them out of an established game later. Anyone trying to claim 'most offended status' with me is going to run home to mama in tears by the time I'm done.
I'm thinking that advertising for an 'old school, 2E game' might filter out a large number of potential problems. In fact, it might even net me zero players, given that most folks seem to be interested in 5E and little else.
But would it totally backfire on me to actually come right out and say something like: "This will be an 'old school' DnD campaign aimed at older players, using old school tropes. Younger and/or inexperienced players willing to embrace a more OSR experience are welcome, but SJW's, the thin-skinned, and easily offended won't find this campaign to their liking."
Too heavy handed and brutally honest for the modern world, or not? These days I hesitate even trying to put a table together with strangers.
Advertise as follows.....
Wanted: Players for an old school 2E AD&D Campaign, set in the old school AD&D Greyhawk Setting. This will be run in true old school fashion. No crybabies allowed. Leave your pacifiers and security blankets at home. There will be No X Cards allowed. Either run with the big dogs, or stay on the porch.
Quote from: Jam The MF on January 13, 2022, 05:51:47 PMAdvertise as follows.....
Wanted: Players for an old school 2E AD&D Campaign, set in the old school AD&D Greyhawk Setting. This will be run in true old school fashion. No crybabies allowed. Leave your pacifiers and security blankets at home. There will be No X Cards allowed. Either run with the big dogs, or stay on the porch.
On reading this, my assumption would be that whoever posted it isn't a very pleasant person to talk to, regardless of whether they share my politics or not.
As others have pointed out: you can avoid the idiots and useless scum without being an overt ass about it. Yes, being blunt and offensive to the perpetually-offended is entertaining and at times cathartic, but advertising for folks for your elfgames is probably not the time or place for it.
I think it's generally good to go full honest, unless you make advertisement on very leftist site. Alas you should do it in maybe more dyplomatic way.
QuoteSJWs don't actually play RPGs much, they much prefer to roam the Internet monitoring for Wrongthink. So an ad for an old school D&D game is very unlikely to attract any SJWs looking to play. But an ad with 'no SJWs' in it is a red rag to a bull.
Common RPGSite myth, utterly incompatible with my experience across multiple RPG sites and groups in both Polish and English-speaking web. I'm not saying they are good players.
But they play. Like I last read about 70% of trans people plays, insane statistics (though not that ridiculous when I think about it - as certain Polish gameshow host answered when asked why there's like 99% of men in his show and almost all ladies "I don't know why, but I have my suspicions").
Quoten reading this, my assumption would be that whoever posted it isn't a very pleasant person to talk to, regardless of whether they share my politics or not.
As others have pointed out: you can avoid the idiots and useless scum without being an overt ass about it. Yes, being blunt and offensive to the perpetually-offended is entertaining and at times cathartic, but advertising for folks for your elfgames is probably not the time or place for it.
Yup.
Just don't let yourself be bullied. Run the game and style you want to run. You don't have to appeal to all comers. And saying so from the outset I find refreshing.
You be you.
I think this part ... Looking to run an old school AD&D 2e game set in Greyhawk ... Will automatically dissuade any SJW personality from showing up. You really don't need to say more to cause them to avoid it. The 2e part alone will send them fleeing for safer 5e pastures.
Quote from: Wrath of God on January 13, 2022, 07:58:34 PM
I think it's generally good to go full honest, unless you make advertisement on very leftist site. Alas you should do it in maybe more dyplomatic way.
QuoteSJWs don't actually play RPGs much, they much prefer to roam the Internet monitoring for Wrongthink. So an ad for an old school D&D game is very unlikely to attract any SJWs looking to play. But an ad with 'no SJWs' in it is a red rag to a bull.
Common RPGSite myth, utterly incompatible with my experience across multiple RPG sites and groups in both Polish and English-speaking web. I'm not saying they are good players.
But they play. Like I last read about 70% of trans people plays, insane statistics (though not that ridiculous when I think about it - as certain Polish gameshow host answered when asked why there's like 99% of men in his show and almost all ladies "I don't know why, but I have my suspicions").
Quoten reading this, my assumption would be that whoever posted it isn't a very pleasant person to talk to, regardless of whether they share my politics or not.
As others have pointed out: you can avoid the idiots and useless scum without being an overt ass about it. Yes, being blunt and offensive to the perpetually-offended is entertaining and at times cathartic, but advertising for folks for your elfgames is probably not the time or place for it.
Yup.
Agreed on the being honest and diplomatic front. "2e Greyhawk campaign. No politics, no nonsense." Probably gets OP most of the way there.
Would be curious about your experiences in gaming with tons of SJWs. I game with tons of liberals, even a few who dye their hair, but they are not SJWs. They are just liberal. On the other hand, I have seen tons of vocal SJWs on Reddit (less around around here) who do and say things that suggest they have no real experience actually playing the game.
Quote from: S'mon on January 13, 2022, 05:36:03 PM
Keep the phrasing positive. Omit the bolded part , it would deter a bunch of regular people as well as the ones you are trying to deter. Don't say 'you won't like this', but you can say stuff like 'old school tropes', '1970s style D&D' etc. You can eg include a summary of your house rules if you like.
This right here.
As someone of your vintage and having gone through this a bit recently, emphasize that you're running things old-school. Most SJW's will avoid that on its face.
That said - you're going to get younger players that are interested, but they're going to have "modern" sensibilities. Expect Snowflake character concepts, expect possibly pro-noun gender requests for their PC's (easily handled), expect total shock at the potential lethality old-school gaming.
The key is making sure you put forward that your setting is going to be played contextually realistic to the setting. This means it's not a reflection on you, or anyone else. This is the world as it is. So if they wanna play a Half-Orc Barbarian and you're starting in Furyondy, well give them a little in-game history to explain why Half-orcs are not well liked. Same goes with any other weird choice (relative to your starting point), just make sure you properly contextualize what you are willing to do for them - but don't hold anything back. And if you don't think they can pull it off - do not allow it in the game.
I also think you shouldn't say you're aiming for an older audience. Seriously - it's up to us older players to prove to newcomers the value of "old school gaming" rather than pontificating about it on forums like we already do. Bring them new players up. Teach them The Way.
I had a noob player I almost didn't accept into my crew - and he was floored by the experience. He had to drop out due to real-life circumstances after a few months - but he posted the most wonderful parting note to the Meet-up Community we were part of (and none of us realized it until a few weeks later) telling everyone about those experiences and how much fun it was. And for us - it was just gaming as we normally do.
It's going to take people like us to hand down the things we've learned in actual play. So throw your net wide.
Quote from: FingerRod on January 14, 2022, 08:17:59 AM
Would be curious about your experiences in gaming with tons of SJWs. I game with tons of liberals, even a few who dye their hair, but they are not SJWs. They are just liberal. On the other hand, I have seen tons of vocal SJWs on Reddit (less around around here) who do and say things that suggest they have no real experience actually playing the game.
That fits my experience. SJWs are seemingly all over the Internet, but I've GM'd for hundreds of people and seen maybe one possible SJW at my game table - and we're only guessing that since she played less than one session and spent most of it slagging us off. And the stuff she was scolding us for was not specifically SJW, she started by complaining we were all late to the game (she'd apparently arrived early & gone off again). She did have the hair and the 'look', though.
Of course if you criticise SJW ideology in front of left-liberal gamers you will typically get some dirty looks & possibly comments. But they don't try to ruin your life, they just want a 'safe space'. I think the funniest one was the player who mentioned the EU, saw me grimace, and said "Oh I know, I still miss it too!" That was not why I was grimacing...
Maybe have a shredder on the table top for x cards and other Cook-esque consent paper-work and any character sheets for those characters that didn't roll the dice well when it counted.
What the hell is an X-card? I keep seeing this come up.
Your only real problem I see coming is if you say outright you don't want SJWs in the game that will bring them for sure.
They get in, you don't know this, then they screw it up for you. If you complain too much you get hit by some ism and get into trouble like on rpg.net or facebook.
Quote from: jmarso on January 14, 2022, 02:22:58 PM
What the hell is an X-card? I keep seeing this come up.
My whole damn point in that no corner turned post.
The x-card is something with an x on it on the table. Some whiny player gets triggered by something he taps it, and you have to stop, maybe going outside or wherever to see what's so triggering.
I am NOT making that up.
Quote from: Redwanderer on January 14, 2022, 02:38:12 PM
Quote from: jmarso on January 14, 2022, 02:22:58 PM
What the hell is an X-card? I keep seeing this come up.
My whole damn point in that no corner turned post.
The x-card is something with an x on it on the table. Some whiny player gets triggered by something he taps it, and you have to stop, maybe going outside or wherever to see what's so triggering.
I am NOT making that up.
Oh, FFS!
I'll never allow anything like that in a game I run, or play in a game where it's a thing.
If something is bothering you, be an adult and address it with me directly. You don't need to resort to little 'safe-space' mechanisms. Who the f--k comes up with this crap, anyway?
I usually make sure to drop subtle hints that would deter the woke. Chainmail bikini artwork in the ad, no politics (they usually think everything is political), not politically correct, etc.
If online just take a quick look at their profile or post history and bounce anyone who might be a problem.
BLM, antifa, iconography are right out. Anime profile pictures are a red flag, so are weird hair colors, pronouns in their name or biography, rainbows, etc.
QuoteWould be curious about your experiences in gaming with tons of SJWs. I game with tons of liberals, even a few who dye their hair, but they are not SJWs. They are just liberal. On the other hand, I have seen tons of vocal SJWs on Reddit (less around around here) who do and say things that suggest they have no real experience actually playing the game.
My standards for SJW may be bit wider, as I'm conservative Catholic, alas I cannot say I played much with them. My regular group is like all-Catholic plus spy from Rainfolk Land, so...
Alas I read many places in internet, I see prolific both creators and writers-of-subject and strong left turn is very visible.
I played once for like 8 sessions, in playtests of PTBA inspired Warhammer hack, for Polish RPG YT channel, and our MG, me, two other players were ConCatholic (arguably as players, more than MG who has strong republican-bonapartist strike, while other players well let's say often with rainbow additions to their Facebook avatars or red thunders (in Poland pro-abortion movement). I have no idea if they knew of our political affiliations, and we kept things neutral, not to you know sabotage those tests, or smth. I'd say I'd call three of those 5 SJW, one definitely strong one - member of one of most toxic SJW-fandom groups in Polish groups, all three engaged before in some lesser cancel action.
And I see quite significant more simmilar people, I have no reason to doubt they player creed overall. And I'm living in way more conservative country than USA.
Alas as players they were fine.
QuoteOf course if you criticise SJW ideology in front of left-liberal gamers you will typically get some dirty looks & possibly comments. But they don't try to ruin your life, they just want a 'safe space'. I think the funniest one was the player who mentioned the EU, saw me grimace, and said "Oh I know, I still miss it too!" That was not why I was grimacing...
Ah OK that's very tempered definition of SJW for standards of this group.
I'd keep it shorter and sweeter:
"AD&D 2e game, more focused on your cooperative survival than your Player Character builds. Aiming for a more mature audience, having a thicker skin to life's hardships and willing to seize their own fame and fortunes."
The words key into certain expectations:
'Cooperative survival' = no in-fighting, be egdy shitlord, table troll, or spotlight diva.
'cooperation' over 'builds' = you are not a slave to Rules As Written, victory at character generation tricks (read WotC D&D, esp. 3.5); also no wacky outliers just to find the bleeding edge.
'Mature audience... hardships' = will include beyond Rated G content. can handle their shit and not repeatedly be a prolapsed asshole in public. can cope with PC death, save v. death, or level drains, etc.
'willing to seize... fortunes' = active players involved in their own fun. not passive, which helps scare away most passive-aggressives.
From there you can add a line about Premise and a line about Scope:
e.g. Forgotten Realms Unther, fantasy Sumeria, oodles of demons and fading gods needing you zeal. Ideally long term, faster growth to name level (lvl 9+) so you may lead satisfying armies at war in the end.
(edit: S'Mon is absolutely right: Keep it positive! The point is To Sell.) Keep it to a pithy paragraph, just work on making each sentence strong. I have noticed a strong sense of vision with concise phrasing also scares away trollolols and narcissism. It means you are less of a target for predatory manipulation.
Good luck! Have Fun! 8)
Quote from: Opaopajr on January 15, 2022, 03:54:16 AM
I'd keep it shorter and sweeter:
"AD&D 2e game, more focused on your cooperative survival than your Player Character builds. Aiming for a more mature audience, having a thicker skin to life's hardships and willing to seize their own fame and fortunes."
The words key into certain expectations:
'Cooperative survival' = no in-fighting, be egdy shitlord, table troll, or spotlight diva.
'cooperation' over 'builds' = you are not a slave to Rules As Written, victory at character generation tricks (read WotC D&D, esp. 3.5); also no wacky outliers just to find the bleeding edge.
'Mature audience... hardships' = will include beyond Rated G content. can handle their shit and not repeatedly be a prolapsed asshole in public. can cope with PC death, save v. death, or level drains, etc.
'willing to seize... fortunes' = active players involved in their own fun. not passive, which helps scare away most passive-aggressives.
From there you can add a line about Premise and a line about Scope:
e.g. Forgotten Realms Unther, fantasy Sumeria, oodles of demons and fading gods needing you zeal. Ideally long term, faster growth to name level (lvl 9+) so you may lead satisfying armies at war in the end.
(edit: S'Mon is absolutely right: Keep it positive! The point is To Sell.) Keep it to a pithy paragraph, just work on making each sentence strong. I have noticed a strong sense of vision with concise phrasing also scares away trollolols and narcissism. It means you are less of a target for predatory manipulation.
Good luck! Have Fun! 8)
Here's the interesting thing. Player maturity seems to be a key factor. The trend right now is to claim that Gen Z are conservative. They're not - they're just as left leaning and full-on SJW. The key is "maturity based upon having life experiences in the cold hard real-world." What I'm getting at is that you might be just as successful getting players who gel if they are military veterans who are in their 20s as you would be getting them if they are 50 year olds. My current group (we've played off and on for about 15 years or so, with my work travel being the limiting factor for my consistency) are a police officer with an ex-wife a new wife and kids, a former air force police enlisted-turned nursing student with a wife and kids, a drywaller/electrician/maintenance supervisor-turned commuter train driver with a long time partner and kid, a union carpenter and town councilman, and a fast food restaurant manager, who, as far as we can determine, is into some type of non-traditional relationship involving multiple partners all living together. Former members have included a freight train engineer with a high-powered corporate wife and kids, and a college student. Guess who the first to go was? The college student. Nice enough guy, but was way too left-leaning. We'd spend a bit of time each session talking politics, current events, gun porn, and shit talking each other. The college student was horrified by the filth coming out of our mouths directed at each other. He was horrified by talk of cops giving occupy wall street protestors doses of wooden shampoo. But that was all because he had never left the shelter of academia or home.
So - you may have success even if you don't limit potential players, but it might not be a terrible idea to approach it like you're the hiring manager interviewing job applicants.
Quote from: 3catcircus on January 15, 2022, 08:44:02 AM
... but it might not be a terrible idea to approach it like you're the hiring manager interviewing job applicants.
Anyone have any strategies on how to do exactly this without making it look like you are doing exactly this? I'd love to vet potential players through one on one interviews, but in a game played for fun it just seems like that's too 'out there.'
Quote from: jmarso on January 15, 2022, 12:47:52 PM
Quote from: 3catcircus on January 15, 2022, 08:44:02 AM
... but it might not be a terrible idea to approach it like you're the hiring manager interviewing job applicants.
Anyone have any strategies on how to do exactly this without making it look like you are doing exactly this? I'd love to vet potential players through one on one interviews, but in a game played for fun it just seems like that's too 'out there.'
Thing is, in a game you bring forward to allow anyone at all in the General Populace to join with an open invite, you probably should curate the applicants exactly like a hiring manager. Or else you're going to get some not-so-fun games stocked with a bunch of the people you say you don't want to be gaming with.
I don't have a clue what area you're in, but the folks saying these players are only present on Twitter and you're not likely to have many show up seem either way out of touch or located in an area where they aren't going to see many of these types of folks to begin with. I thought I was in that type of area, too. I was dead wrong.
The gaming store I was about to start getting paid to run games at seemed like a great idea when I first joined up. But within a few weeks, all of the other GMs were talking about promoting a number of women-only and LGBTQ-only games to be inclusive and provide a safe space in the store, making blanket statement trash talk about cis het men frequently in their group chat, and generally making themselves seem very non-inclusive.
All of this is happening in a small rural Texas town. So I doubt there are as many places around as people might think that the folks they are saying don't actually play TTRPGs outside of talking about them on Twitter are not represented heavily in their community.
As far as I can tell so far in 20+ years of gaming in the same area, that probably isn't based upon anything more than the fact that most people tend to find groups with like minded gamers and stick with them for a long while, only to become a little oblivious about the larger gaming community outside of their established group. Over the past seven years, any time we've attempted to recruit new players, they have been of an extreme leftist, politically charged philosphy, and did not mesh well with our group.
Another thing I find very telling is that any games the store has scheduled thus far have been cancelled if they did not deal with WotC specific D&D settings and adventures (esp. nu-Ravenloft, Strixhaven, and Witchlight) or anthropomorphic character-based games. Because nobody is signing up for games like Shadowrun, Cyberpunk, Vampire, Star Wars d6, DCC, Shadow of the Demon Lord, or any version of D&D except 5E. And all games are to include safety tools of some sort by recommendation of the GM Manager.
/shrug although it sounds great at first glance to get paid to GM, I'm really too busy right now to do too much of it anyway. And I don't feel like running any game that's a hostage to current politics.
S'mon is right: keep it positive.
What you want is an open game table: anyone can come or go at any time. If you start off with zero players it's rare to be able to get a group of 4-6 straight off the bat, you're going to have to churn through a bunch of half-interested wanderers over the next few months anyway. So embrace it, make it an open game table, play with whoever comes along.
If your experience is anything like mine you'll get 10-12 people over 3 months or so, and eventually you'll get 3-4 regulars out of this, with 2-3 others who drift in and out. And that's enough.
And some of them will surprise you. People who you'd thought would be a perfect fit will come once and never again, others who you thought would hate you end up coming along regularly for years.
Don't try to be an exclusive special delicate snowflake, the rpg equivalent of the wine snob. Open game table. Every time.