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Specifically, they've stopped pretending the "Chronicle" books don't represent a 2nd edition of NWoD. (http://theonyxpath.com/the-world-of-darkness-second-edition/)

To be fair, it wasn't their choice to go the Chronicle route in the first place, it was CCP's - but CCP seems to have been convinced. Blood and Smoke will get "cosmetic changes" to turn it into Vampire: the Requiem 2nd Edition (redesigned cover is a no-brainer, I'm guessing some art tweaks and a find-and-replace to turn "Blood and Smoke" into "Vampire: the Requiem 2nd Edition" throughout the text would be the other change), WoD 2nd Edition will be the core WoD book with the God-Machine rules update properly incorporated (though I have both the original and the update, I'll probably pick this up just to avoid a nightmare of cross-referencing), and the upcoming "Chronicle" books for Werewolf and Mage are now just going to be WtF 2E and M:tAw 2E.

I barely even got use out of my nWoD books.

Now I wonder whether I should bother picking up the 2nd editions of each. I really, really like the nWoD, and I like the direction GMC and B&S took it even better.

Decisions, decisions, what to do. Time will tell, I guess.

Good. The naming and branding of nnWoD was beyond pigfuckingly stupid.

Quote from: The Butcher;780209I barely even got use out of my nWoD books.

Now I wonder whether I should bother picking up the 2nd editions of each. I really, really like the nWoD, and I like the direction GMC and B&S took it even better.

Decisions, decisions, what to do. Time will tell, I guess.

I'd say leave VtR2E alone if you already have B&S. If you bought it on PDF you'll get the 2E PDF for free, but the changes are supposed to be only cosmetic and they'd be crazy to change that because nobody wants the nightmare of having to deal with two different page references for stuff in B&S and VtR2E.

WoD2E may be worth it if, like me, you find that flipping between the 1E rulebook and the God-Machine Update is a royal pain.

Either way, it sounds like the direction they've taken with GMC and B&S was successful enough for them to double down on it to this extent, so hopefully they'll stay the course.

I would leave the old stuff and get the new, the system is changed enough that you need to. The experience point system is completely different. As for Mage the magic system/paradox is totally changed and there is no vulgar/covert divide basically just paradox and the amount you want to cause (because yes have the choice to soak it or just let it run free and fuck others up if you don't care).

Only good news I seen so far.  Between their price hikes and the fact their freelance writers support the attacks on the DnD consultants I won't be buying those books.  I stick with nWoD 1st edition and use the mirrors suppliment that got rid of the two things I hated about the storytelling system.  The merit bulk and the morality rules.

Quote from: Piestrio;780214The naming and branding of nnWoD was beyond pigfuckingly stupid.

I agree and was surprised to find in the comment section that anyone actually liked titles like "Blood and Smoke: The Strix Chronicle." If you're not a diehard fanperson, you'll never know what that's supposed to mean. No wonder they have to jack up prices. They're selling only to their base now.

At first, I was excited about the new rules, but after that initial high, I think I'll stick with 1st edition. I never used many of the supplements anyway, and the new rules are junk. They just increased the fiddliness.

Now I have to keep track of beats in addition to experience. There are conditions and tilts that I won't even bother with unless I buy those stupid cards or make my own (again, why bother?). There's a social combat system. Seriously, they ruined Exalted 2nd Edition with crap like that, and now they are spreading it over all the game lines? At least it's just a lazy Ctrl+F of the extended contest rules.

The only thing I like is the combat system because that's how I've been playing the game for a long time. Considering my games average about 1 combat per five sessions, though, that's not much of a bonus. They also complicated the weapon stats.

This "second edition" makes me worried about Trinity and the other lines, and I gave up on Exalted long ago. I still have my books, and I don't object to anyone having fun with these rules. But this isn't the "evolution" of the system that oWoD to nWoD was. Not even close.

Some one else that agrees with me with conditions and tilts.  That is sadly rare among the world of darkness fans.  Wish more people see it for what it actually is.

Your also right on the dollar with beats.  It is like they have a hard on for FATE's fate points economy.  The beat system wants you to fail so you can have more "drama".  That is reason David Hill one of the writers of that game told me.  There is only one problem.

In FATE the only way you die is if your stress is overflowing, death would make sense in the scene, and after the GM warns you about it.  FATE does every thing to make you avoid death as possible.  Hell you could just give up by conceding which not only gives you a escape route, but freebie fate points.  Not to mention if you take a short rest all those stresses are instantly healed.  It does every thing to prevent character death.

Can you even say the same thing with World of Darkness?  No you can't.  In fact senseless violent death that is to horrible to look at is one of the things that happen in the world of darkness.  Your character is not some grand hero.  That character is just monster in a forest of other monsters and your not on top of the food chain.  World of darkness only rewards those who use common sense, the cunning, the manipulators, and the strong.  It is the complete opposite of FATE.

It doesn't even make sense to put the most talk about rule mechanic of FATE which encourages you to do stupid things in the world of darkness.  The stupid do not last long in the world of darkness.  In fact they are the first ones to get killed.

The fact that it is only available through POD at a steady price will keep me from this new iteration of Nwod, which is not such a big deal because the previous books contain so much material and alternative rules. So I like the direction where the 1st edition Nwod was going and this whole condition thing don't sound like something that I will enjoy. The fact they reduce the ill effects of torpor is also a good indication for me.

My suggestion is to get Mirrors supplement for nWoD 1st Edition.  It helps you out in crafting your own world and give you some rule mechanics that you might want to try.

I use the GMC Intergity rules, the new dodge rules and the B&S Mask and Dirge rules. I also like the Touchstone and Aspiration rules, but I don't use them yet. The Conditions and tilts and beats are too much bookkeeping for me. They are playtested by the community, so it makes sense they like them. Kinda weird for the WoD community to come with something rule-heavy, but soit.

I mostly like the new clan and covenant description and the prefab settings in B&S who break the mold. It does make sense to call the new books 2nd Editions. Instead of those confusing Chronicle books. And yeah it seems like they only sell to their fanboys now, who mostly play only WoD games. And other RPG'ers avoid the WoD nowadays. So they are on an island now.

My biggest gripe remains the lack of lore. It's all fragmented and incomplete and not setup for practical use. It never answers the question "What do they actually do?" when the lore talks about factions and NPC's. It has some interesting ideas, but it remains unclear what to do it. I am talking about the Clanbooks for example. Or Ancient Mysteries. The first discusses clan NPC's being interviewed and the latter discusses vampire settings (with unique covenants) through different ages in different parts of the world. Both add lore, but never become of practical use to me.

I guess it's nice that oWoD and nWoD are both kinda getting support in their own way now? I didn't know anything about this whole Onyx Path deal because I don't really care about pretty much anything WW does (though the VtM reprint was cool.)

I hope Changeling: The Lost will get a new edition too, because I actually do really like that one.

Quote from: LibraryLass;780320I guess it's nice that oWoD and nWoD are both kinda getting support in their own way now? I didn't know anything about this whole Onyx Path deal because I don't really care about pretty much anything WW does (though the VtM reprint was cool.)

I hope Changeling: The Lost will get a new edition too, because I actually do really like that one.

Yep, it is. Although old WoD mostly gets reprints of old books or books that never made because the line got cancelled like the Convention books. And the new WoD 2nd editions are way more flavorful than the 1st editions.

I don't hate the WoD. My relation with those games are complex. Love and hate.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;780324I don't hate the WoD. My relation with those games are complex. Love and hate.

That's always true with the things I care about. Silly to say that about a game, I guess, but no matter.

The oWoD products are okay,  but I don't like the settings 100% as presented, new or old. I do like to tinker with them, so I buy the toolkit products they put out, such as Mirrors.

All this talk about a second edition has rekindled my interest a bit. I've yet to play Vampire with my newest group. I fell out of love with it because of too many bad experiences. For whatever reason, Vampire brings out the crazies. Now I'm thinking of trying it out with my own setting based on a little of the old and new. Of course, this might just be my GM ADD talking.

If they do hunter or geist 2nd edition books i may take notice(hunter and geist are the only games i ever managed to sell to my old group) but i never got into the nwod versions of vampire and werewolves and mage has always bored the crap outta me so..

Well that is because the developers treated those as 5 by 5 splats.  Five in born groups and five organizations.  Not to mention they always had the five types (leader, rebel, warrior, occult expert, and social) some where in those three books.  It became a formula and a boring one.

You can thank Promethean for ending that.  Sure it started out as five by five, but Magnum Opus change that by adding in four more refinements.  That book even let you play as animals, dream born, humans born from prometheans, and other oddities.  Saturnine Nights finally gave us nuclear prometheans, machine prometheans called unflesh, and the ability to create more lineages.  Suddenly the five by five splat was slain.

Changeling the lost kept up the trend by having stick with six seemlings, but a lot of kiths to make your character mechanically unique.  When people had the chance the dual kith things really took off for the better.  Not to mention the number of courts grew and with the ability make your own contracts the number of courts is unlimited.

Hunter had plenty of professions, compacts, and conspiracies.  What made it more advance than Promethean and Changeling was that the tool set to create even more is in the core book.  Hunter: The Vigil became the first line of nWoD books that you really only needed the core book so the suppliments really had to prove themselves.  This is by far my favorite line so I have bias here, but you can make up what ever you want with hunter.

Geist didn't do any thing special in the terms of splats.  You got your five thresholds and a bunch of archtypes.  What they did do is made the z-splat actually worth looking into.  To this day I still say that groups that geists can form is what a werewolf tribe should had been.  Hell geist is what werewolf should had been in every aspect.

I don't know about mummy as I don't own any books on that.  Some one can easily fill you in on that.

Quote from: Broken-Serenity;780338If they do hunter or geist 2nd edition books i may take notice(hunter and geist are the only games i ever managed to sell to my old group) but i never got into the nwod versions of vampire and werewolves and mage has always bored the crap outta me so..

They already did hunter second edition.  Look at Mortal Remains.  While the book itself is great the fact is the update to 2nd edition is shit.  Another reason to not support Onyx Path for me at least.

looked into that pdf and wasnt impressed so yeah i'll avoid the whole damn line till they decide to do something good with it again.

I agree about geist being perfect at 2 books, it also meshed really well with hunter.

Thing is they done a lot of things right with their first edition.  They made the game simpler and easier to get into.  Now, however, second edition takes away all the good things that first edition had done by tossing those out the window.  It is a system that keep every thing that in my subjective, but informed opinion is bad for the game for very poor reasons.

Yes the combat needed the update.  The xp expenses were crazy and needed a fix.  Not to mention there is just way to damn many merits that do the same damn thing.  There is a lot of things that needed to improve.

Problem is with second edition is that they only fix a few problem and created even more problems.  The bulk alone from the merits is bad enough.  Add in conditions and tilts the problem is worst.  They are selling you cards to keep track of the game and what make it worst is that you might need those cards.

Quote from: Snowman0147;780378Problem is with second edition is that they only fix a few problem and created even more problems.  The bulk alone from the merits is bad enough.  Add in conditions and tilts the problem is worst.  They are selling you cards to keep track of the game and what make it worst is that you might need those cards.

They're trying to do more than just a tightening of the rules. That's what you and I would prefer, but that's probably not too interesting to write. So they're taking elements from other RPGs that have come out in the interim and adding a few ideas of their own. I can understand that, but it's not a product I'm interested in supporting.

I don't think it's going to ruin the game. It won't ruin mine because I won't play it that way. New players or those who pick up the rules will doubtless find ways to cope just as we coped with the unwieldy elements of the first edition.

Even if I had to play in a game that used the new rules, the GM would have to deal with most of the book keeping anyway.

I never ever played oWoD, and the nWoD stuff (or should I say WoD) in general is "so-so". I do like the look of VtR though. I have read through that and thought it was quite good.

Then the GMC arrived. Erm...... yeah. Not a great fan of that one. But my point is, if I liked the look of VtR, what do these updates (B&S, and now a 2E) do to the game "in general"? I know they won't take away the older editions and leave me crying with woe (any more so that usual after playing WoD), but a quick run down of the differences would be appreciated (link to a site or something?).

Just read the link on the OP. Eugh. Sounds like a god awful mess.

Quote from: Harshael;780380They're trying to do more than just a tightening of the rules. That's what you and I would prefer, but that's probably not too interesting to write. So they're taking elements from other RPGs that have come out in the interim and adding a few ideas of their own. I can understand that, but it's not a product I'm interested in supporting.

Here is the thing.  You and I are not the only ones that prefer a tighter system.  Look at Dark Heresy 2.0 first beta as a example.  Most people wanted to see a Dark Heresy updated to Black Crusade/Only War rules.  The first beta didn't offer that, but it did offer a janky system that complicated combat.  How did people react to that.  Not well and with so much force that Fantasy Flight drop the system and release the second beta that uses Black Crusade/Only War rules.  The people were happy other than a few vocal idiots who curse the "grognards".

As for World of Darkness.  We got to wait for either two things.  Either Onyx Path isn't selling those books so well that CCP figures they are better off with some one else and removes the license from Onyx Path.  The second is that some other game company just buys out the IP from CCP and never let Onyx Path have any part with it.  I don't see Onyx Path cleaning up their act any time soon.

Quote from: BarefootGaijin;780394I never ever played oWoD, and the nWoD stuff (or should I say WoD) in general is "so-so". I do like the look of VtR though. I have read through that and thought it was quite good.

Then the GMC arrived. Erm...... yeah. Not a great fan of that one. But my point is, if I liked the look of VtR, what do these updates (B&S, and now a 2E) do to the game "in general"? I know they won't take away the older editions and leave me crying with woe (any more so that usual after playing WoD), but a quick run down of the differences would be appreciated (link to a site or something?).

Just read the link on the OP. Eugh. Sounds like a god awful mess.

Ok, I try explaining some things. B&S is the 2nd edition of vampire. It gives the players new clan and covenant descriptions and tiny example settings. It also gives the players new rules. Vampire specific is the masks and dirges (nature/demeanor), touchstones (people you are fond of), banes (curses) and predator's aura (new predator's taint). The God Machine already added the new system with beats and conditions.

GMC rules (http://runagame.blogspot.nl/2013/05/god-machine-chronicle-system-review.html)
Another GMC rules (http://www.noordinaryobsession.com/2013/11/06/god-machine-chronicle-review-rules/)
GMC setting review (http://diehardgamefan.com/2013/05/24/tabletop-review-the-god-machine-chronicle-world-of-darkness/)

Blood and Smoke review (http://diehardgamefan.com/2014/01/16/tabletop-review-blood-and-smoke-the-strix-chronicle-vampire-the-requiem/)
And here (http://www.thecultden.com/2014/06/tabletop-gaming-review-blood-smoke.html)
And here. (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/16/16041.phtml) Start reading from "Now the big changes." for the mechanical changes.

The biggest differences are the conditions and tilts your character can get. In order to get rid of those you PC must meet certain criteria or take a bane (in vampire). After that you can earn a beat. Five beats is one experience.

I have a copy of the (now) old nWoD Corebook.  It was a present from an Ex that went down in flames.  If I get a copy of Mirrors, I could make up my own world and play with those two books?

Quote from: gonster;780455If I get a copy of Mirrors, I could make up my own world and play with those two books?

Yes. Mirrors has many alternate rules and advice for using the system for alternate settings, including fantasy. There are also a couple of PDF extras that add science fiction settings.

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/87937/Mirrors-Infinite-Macabre
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/87936/Mirrors-Bleeding-Edge

Jan you also forgot to mention that touchstones can be places too.  Basicly touchstones are things that you care about because they remind you of what it is like to be human.  The more reminders you have the more likely your gonna resist those humanity rolls.  Though I think ventrue clan got the weakest weakness.  They should only have half the touchstones.

I'm not really taken with the idea that Blood & Smoke becomes VtR2e with minor changes. I found it a poorly organized book. The definitions of terms and buzzwords appear long after they are being used. Furthermore, it doesn't address the weaknesses of VtR. Danse Macabre did a lot to make the covenants make more sense. However, the author of Blood & Smoke chose to adopt the rules from Danse Macabre rather than some of the good setting clarification. Also, the overemphasis of the Strix makes it seem like they are the only antagonists. I'd much rather see the Strix stuff in a sourcebook along the lines of VII.

In addition, I can't say I'm a fan of the new Fate-ish rules. These suffer from White Wolf's failing of using unfamiliar and pretentious words for familiar concepts (beats = xp). Apparently, there are some problems with some of the new disciplines (Domination). Some of the rules changes I like (Masks and Dirges) but some I didn't like. I have to say it seemed like change for change's sake because the new authors are Fate fans.

Quote from: yojimbouk;780687I'm not really taken with the idea that Blood & Smoke becomes VtR2e with minor changes. I found it a poorly organized book. The definitions of terms and buzzwords appear long after they are being used.

This is always the case with the WoD books. Almost a tradition. The WoD core from 2004 was properly organized, but most WoD books aren't. A lot of titles and subtitles don't really tell you waht you are going to read. And it's wordy.

I like the new flavor, but the rules are a bit hit and miss. Fate-like rules. Di you really like the covenants in Danse Macabre? I found them a bit too gonzo, a bit over the top.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;780697Did you really like the covenants in Danse Macabre? I found them a bit too gonzo, a bit over the top.

Well, they weren't anywhere as good as the conspiracies of Hunter but it was a step in the right direction.

Thing is they took the worst mechanic of FATE and then shove it into World of Darkness.  Beats are pretty much fate points as far as I can see.  STs use it to bribe people to do stupid things that would get them into more trouble.  Which I am thankful they at least give you the chance to just say no.

There is one mechanic that could not only work in the World of Darkness, but greatly benefit the system by reducing the bloat.  Of course I am talking about the aspects themselves.  Imagine having only five merits, but these five merits can be any thing you want.  Normally if you do any rolls within the theme of those merits you get bonus to your dice pool.  This can stack if your roll can be applied to multiple of merits.  Now imagine spending a willpower point to apply a special effect from that merit to do something more than bonus dice.  Sure the ST has to make sure it is reasonable, but the fact is that these five merits can do a lot of things that merit can't do in the systems we have today.

Example:  Jim has a boxer character who has a merit called Former Boxing Champion from New York.  The boxer gets in a fight with a few drunk biker thugs.  Jim can get a +3 dice bonus which he uses per turn till there is one last drunk left.  Instead of going through a another combat turn Jim ask the ST if his boxer can just deliver a knock out punch.  The ST agrees and lets Jim spend that willpower.  Without making a roll the boxer delivers a knock out punch that sends the biker to dream land.

Quote from: yojimbouk;780702Well, they weren't anywhere as good as the conspiracies of Hunter but it was a step in the right direction.

To me it sounded like they either wanted to control the world or destroy it. So no politics involved, just straight warfare between them. Almost like the old games where the sects were "mutually exclusive". I do like the covenant descriptions in B&S.

Quote from: Snowman0147;780736Thing is they took the worst mechanic of FATE and then shove it into World of Darkness.  Beats are pretty much fate points as far as I can see.  STs use it to bribe people to do stupid things that would get them into more trouble.  Which I am thankful they at least give you the chance to just say no.

So they are basicly ripping off Fate? I knew something was a little off. They presented it as a community developed and playtested effort.

Quote from: Snowman0147;780736There is one mechanic that could not only work in the World of Darkness, but greatly benefit the system by reducing the bloat.  Of course I am talking about the aspects themselves.  Imagine having only five merits, but these five merits can be any thing you want.  Normally if you do any rolls within the theme of those merits you get bonus to your dice pool.  This can stack if your roll can be applied to multiple of merits.  Now imagine spending a willpower point to apply a special effect from that merit to do something more than bonus dice.  Sure the ST has to make sure it is reasonable, but the fact is that these five merits can do a lot of things that merit can't do in the systems we have today.

This sounds a bit like that new magic system in Blood Sorcery. Rites of Damnation works with five themes called Creation, Divination, Destruction, Protection and Transmutation. Aspects? I try to check it out as I am unfamiliar with Fate.

I do feel Fate might be a little bit more focused than the WoD rules. Isn't there a heavy political setting in the Worlds on Fire book? Did White Wolf got their Social Combat ideas from Fate as well?

Edit: The setting is called Ship Court. I now see you can use Fate point to invoke an Aspect. So it's not a one on one match with the newer WoD rules which uses Beats to get XP. Those Fate points seem more like willpower points to me.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;781318So they are basically ripping off Fate? I knew something was a little off. They presented it as a community developed and playtested effort.

The trouble is that the vocal members of that community are fond of FATE and notoriously uncritical of stuff the devs produce. Most of them hang out at RPG.net. Compared to the bazillion teaser threads where the devs are showered with praise, I only remember one thread where someone identified a flaw in the new rules.

Quote from: yojimbouk;781370The trouble is that the vocal members of that community are fond of FATE and notoriously uncritical of stuff the devs produce. Most of them hang out at RPG.net. Compared to the bazillion teaser threads where the devs are showered with praise, I only remember one thread where someone identified a flaw in the new rules.

Yeah, I know. Some devs are RPG moderators as well. That community is really all about blowing smoke up their asses. The WW devs only replied to my posts if I said something positive. And ignored me if there was a slight criticism. Whatever.

I checked out Fate. Those Fate points can be used to invoke aspects. The aspects give bonuses to rolls for example. And you get them back with aspects as well. There is no xp involved. It looks a bit like your willpower point in the wod which you can reclaim with your virtue and vice or mask and dirge. The condition and beat system is a way of managing xp.

I also checked Ship/Court. A political setting in France under Louis the 15th with an alien invasion of body snatchers. It has mechanics for social combat and secrets. It really reminded me of vampire with the new book also having a race of body snatchers called the Strix. Only this Ship/Court setting seems to be more geared for politics mechanicly and also more cohesive as a setting.

Fate points and willpower points are fine.  Those are energy stats which are suppose to shift in the amount you have.

It is when you drag them over to xp that things get bad.  Seriously don't tell me that taking a dramatic failure, or doing as you are told though social combat isn't a compel.  Especially when doing both you get beats for it.  That is a xp system that FATE won't even do which you are right.  FATE never does that in their own system when it comes to character growth.  Milestones handle that and those are pretty easy to understand and you don't need to keep track of them.  So why in the hell would nWoD staff shove the FATE compel system into nWoD xp and chop up the xp into five pieces?  That right there doesn't make any sense at all and all they did was make sure you do more book keeping.  

Even on the drama stand point that David Hill wanted is horrible because now it is starting to look like a soap opera.  Too much drama is a bad thing especially when you need to do it five more times to get one single xp.  Imagine five dramatic things that happen to you on each session.  It will get old pretty damn quick.

Quote from: Snowman0147;781921Fate points and willpower points are fine.  Those are energy stats which are suppose to shift in the amount you have.

It is when you drag them over to xp that things get bad.  Seriously don't tell me that taking a dramatic failure, or doing as you are told though social combat isn't a compel.  Especially when doing both you get beats for it.  That is a xp system that FATE won't even do which you are right.  FATE never does that in their own system when it comes to character growth.  Milestones handle that and those are pretty easy to understand and you don't need to keep track of them.  So why in the hell would nWoD staff shove the FATE compel system into nWoD xp and chop up the xp into five pieces?  That right there doesn't make any sense at all and all they did was make sure you do more book keeping.  

Got it. Completely agree with you. You have to get five beats for one xp. And for one skill point you have to get two xp aka ten beats. One attribute is four xp aka twenty beats. That's a lot. Even if you get some extra xp with your aspirations. I think if I use this system that I switch out the beats for straight xp. Or maybe two for one.

Quote from: Snowman0147;781921Even on the drama stand point that David Hill wanted is horrible because now it is starting to look like a soap opera.  Too much drama is a bad thing especially when you need to do it five more times to get one single xp.  Imagine five dramatic things that happen to you on each session.  It will get old pretty damn quick.

David Hill? Oh I see it's that MachineIV dude from the forum. It remembers me of playing dramatic scenes when I started playing vampire. Your first embrace, the first feed etc. Boring. That didn't work at all. It become old hat after one go. I really think the WoD games (and settings) are a bit unfocused. You can fight, investigate or do social intrigues, but it doesn't excel at anything.

I think the world of darkness should be focus on investigating weird things.  Hunter focus on that one for the most part and it work well with the game.  Now if only the rest of the game focus on that instead of bullshit politics.

You guys do realise that beats are meant to be in addition to rather than instead of your usual XP, right?

Quote from: Snowman0147;782047I think the world of darkness should be focus on investigating weird things.  Hunter focus on that one for the most part and it work well with the game.  Now if only the rest of the game focus on that instead of bullshit politics.

Agreed again. But I think most people in the WW community think otherwise. To them it's all about the politics. That's why vampire now has several version of social combat. I think there are rules in WoD Mirrors, Danse Macabre and Blood & Smoke. One in the God Machine Chronicles too. It's about who is siding with who and why. Group X is forming an alliance with group Y to do a coup and remove group Z from power etc.

Btw, I think a lot of people use hunter for straight combat games instead of hunting. A lot of killing and survival. My games are very investigative focused like a Cthulhu game.

Quote from: Warthur;782115You guys do realise that beats are meant to be in addition to rather than instead of your usual XP, right?

I thought it replaced the current xp system. God Machine pg. 157:  "These rules replace the World of Darkness Rulebook experience point system."

So, for someone who is NOT a fan of Fate, how big a deal would it be to just ignore these 'Beats'?

You are gonna have to cut out a lot of rules and bulk.  Beats are ingrained to just about every thing.  I think if your done cutting it out you only have a few merits left for mortal book.  I don't know much about vampire, but those disciplines can give out conditions which gives out beats.  

You have a difficult task ahead of you.  May I suggest you try nWoD first edition instead?  You will do less work in the long run.

Quote from: Snowman0147;782122You are gonna have to cut out a lot of rules and bulk.  Beats are ingrained to just about every thing.  I think if your done cutting it out you only have a few merits left for mortal book.  I don't know much about vampire, but those disciplines can give out conditions which gives out beats.  

You have a difficult task ahead of you.  May I suggest you try nWoD first edition instead?  You will do less work in the long run.

Yep, the beats are integrated with the conditions. And the conditions with everthing else. So you either use the new system with the beats or you don't use it at all. I personally don't hate Fate. I like a lot of the GM advice they give for example. Writing down question for an adventure and the questions that don't get answered eventually become the campaign arce. That's pretty cool. But the additional bookkeeping ...

Full disclosure: I am currently freelancing as a writer for Onyx Path on Werewolf: the Forsaken 2e, Mage: the Awakening 2e and Trinity Aeon.  I wasn't involved in the adjustments to the core rules that occurred with GMC. Hello everyone :)

Quote from: Simlasa;782120So, for someone who is NOT a fan of Fate, how big a deal would it be to just ignore these 'Beats'?

It's pretty trivial to do.

Beats are mostly just an output - an additional resource generated by certain things happening in game.  Just going back to the old nWoD method of giving out however many Experiences at the end of the game will solve the bulk of the issue, although you'll want to give out a smaller amount of Experiences compared to how many Experience Points you'd have given out under the old system.

As a side note, I'm still not keen on the term 'Experiences'; I continue to call them Experience Points to myself :p

So, where does switching from Beats cause an issue?  The obvious one is Dramatic Failures, in that the lure of a Beat brings them into play more often than they used to under the old nWoD system - which is to say, it used to be 'almost never' whereas under the new system with Beats it becomes 'very rarely'.  A relatively minor effect, to my mind.

If you strip out the Beats element, Conditions just become pre-packaged rules effects with their resolution conditions in their write-ups - I mean, that's what they are anyway, but you now won't have to bother remembering to note down a Beat/throw a token in the group Beat pot/etc whenever a Condition gets resolved.

Beyond that, you'll come across an occasional rules element, power or whatnot that gives a benefit in the form of producing Beats for certain actions or eventualities. None come immediately to mind but I'm sure they're out there.

If you do decide to keep Beats, I'd suggest using the group Beats variant because that way the entire group is more active in keeping track of when Beats get earned and there's only a single total, rather than you having to keep track of several different Beats totals for the different players.  I certainly find it makes my life a lot easier as a GM.

Snowman0147, what do you mean about cutting out Beats leaving you with only a few merits for the mortals book? I just had a (very) brief scan over the Merits section in GMC and nothing stood out to me as being particularly tied into Beats.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;782117I thought it replaced the current xp system. God Machine pg. 157:  "These rules replace the World of Darkness Rulebook experience point system."

You're right, I misremembered.

I would be inclined, along with Acrozatarim, to go with the communal beats variant simply so people who have been skillful at avoiding Conditions don't get penalised.

I wonder if bigger weapons will still hit more often?

Let me scan through the book again.  I may had gotten mix up with another book that uses beats.  Still stand by the fact that the amount of merits, conditions, tilts, and tracking beats are a bad thing in general though.  To be honest I and some people in this thread pretty much stated that the big deal with us is conditions and tilts.  You have a method to cut those out as well?

Quote from: danbuter;782188I wonder if bigger weapons will still hit more often?

This is one of the better things about nWoD 2nd edition.  Weapon damage does not add to attack roll.  Instead if you hit the weapon damage mod is added to the sux.  Of course you have to be able to hit and since heavy weapons reduce your initiative mod your more likely to get harm by your opponents before you get the chance to strike.  Other than tilts combat has a good over haul.

Quote from: Snowman0147;782201This is one of the better things about nWoD 2nd edition.  Weapon damage does not add to attack roll.  Instead if you hit the weapon damage mod is added to the sux.  Of course you have to be able to hit and since heavy weapons reduce your initiative mod your more likely to get harm by your opponents before you get the chance to strike.  Other than tilts combat has a good over haul.

And hooray for a dodge roll. :D
I really disliked the passive defense.

Sure, I have a writing deadline to hit today but, once that's done, I'll talk about Conditions and Tilts.

Quote from: Acrozatarim;782266Sure, I have a writing deadline to hit today but, once that's done, I'll talk about Conditions and Tilts.

Tilts aren't that bad. There aren't too many of them, and they're simple enough that they can fit on a single page. I don't plan on most of my combat sessions needing them either.

My problems with conditions include the fact that they're really a patch on the merits system. Some, but not all, of the effects can be temporary, but so is true of merits. I'm not really sure why they need their own system with its own complexities.

If you want to do away with them, you could use a Fate aspect-like conditions system. You could use beats with them in a compel fashion if you wanted to. The main difference here is that you use the narrative logic of the scene and not the book to determine the effects of the conditions. Otherwise, you're going to have to spend a lot of time referring back to the text. You could even drop the merits system and use this aspect-condition system for them instead. I think there's a hack for that in Mirrors. Tilts could go this way, too. Really, all those systems are trying to do the same thing but in different ways. It's needlessly complex in my opinion.

If you don't like anything FATE, including aspects, then you're stuck using the three systems. You just don't have to use beats with them, and without them they're just like a traditional character condition system. Just give out an extra experience point every once in a while. I think this is actually the lesser option.

This and social combat as well are a step closer to "rollplaying" instead of roleplaying. It's just odd WW came up with these rules, considering they always stood for the latter. Then again maybe I should just try them once. I never used the conditions and beats. I never used Fate as well, so I am a poor judge.

The way beats are described I keep getting an Austin Powers visual, as he kept 'accidentally' falling atop his female partner Vanessa while in bed. "Oops, I fell over!" "Oops, I fell over again!"

Quote from: Opaopajr;782399The way beats are described I keep getting an Austin Powers visual, as he kept 'accidentally' falling atop his female partner Vanessa while in bed. "Oops, I fell over!" "Oops, I fell over again!"

:confused:

I do like the new descriptions and the writing style of the new books. It's more flavorful and more to the point. The older books, especially those between 2004-2007 are pretty much unreadable to me. The difference in tone between B&S and for example Mythologies, ancient Mysteries or Secrets of the Ruined Temple are very large. I can read those books for two or three pages and still don't know what I just read. Like trying to grab a patch of fog. So that improved. It's not all bad.

I made a topic on theonyxpath forum about Fate and WoD. Immediately two developers responded on that. Quite interesting actually. Also Cortex plus and Cinematic unisystem were inspirations.

link (http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/241599-fate-beats-and-conditions)

Quote from: Snowman0147;782200Let me scan through the book again.  I may had gotten mix up with another book that uses beats.  Still stand by the fact that the amount of merits, conditions, tilts, and tracking beats are a bad thing in general though.  To be honest I and some people in this thread pretty much stated that the big deal with us is conditions and tilts.  You have a method to cut those out as well?

So, Conditions.

First thing to do with Conditions is to figure out what they are and what they do.  What they are is basically a little package of rules that is separated from the power that causes them, rather than being integrated into the power - ie "Frighten The Shit Out Of You causes the Frightened Condition", rather than "Frighten The Shit Out Of You causes the victim to become terrified, suffering a -2 penalty to attack rolls and Composure."

What they do is a few things.  Firstly, they allow for a certain amount of avoidance of repetition.  For example, in the Werewolf Gifts I've written for the new Forsaken edition, several Facets (Hit and Run, Shadow of the Predator, Shutdown) can apply the Shadow Paranoia Condition.  Rather than rewriting the full effect of what Shadow Paranoia does in each power, I can just have them say 'causes the Shadow Paranoia Condition' then write it all up once in the Condition description.

They also allow, mechanically, for effects that target the Condition category.  I can make a special ability that allows me to shrug off Conditions or ignore them for a bit.  This is simpler than a rule that works by allowing me to shrug off a set group of effects that I now need to define, which have not been defined in the effects themselves as belonging to that group.

So far, so design/mechanical.  What about from the playing side of things? Well, in theory it can help a player juggle various effects that they've been hit with, in that it's easier to reference, say, Shadow Paranoia when it's something that you're using or having used on you regularly, rather than that whole block of effect. You can glance at the Condition names affecting you and ideally get a quicker read on things.  My players, at least, seem to find this to be the case.

The big one, it would seem, would be that Conditions can get you Beats by encouraging you to Do Stuff that hits the Condition's Beat entry; but, honestly, lots of Conditions don't actually have a 'Gain a Beat' effect, especially those inflicted by supernatural powers.

The other major element of Conditions - certainly the one I've found to be significant in my Werewolf playtesting - has been that you get one for an exceptional success now.  Unlike the old rules, where exceptional successes for a lot of general rolls were a bit nebulous in what they should do, now the guideline is get a Condition that has a +2 or -2 or similar effect on a roll (and, therefore, also get a Beat when the Condition then resolves). This has actually been the trickiest part of the Condition system for me to work into my GMing style, as with the kind of dice results my players seem to get, I need to chuck these Conditions at them regularly.  Fortunately, they're fairly simple to do.

Right then, how do we remove Conditions as an effect to track then?

Firstly, just treat Condition text as part of the power that inflicts it, as the nWoD powers used to function pre-GMC.  This is a slight pain as the Conditions will be in a different part of the book to the powers, but it's pretty trivial to do.  Shadow of the Predator doesn't inflict Shadow Paranoia, it inflicts panic that makes you suffer penalties x, y and z until a certain time passes.

Secondly, since we've already cut Beats out, obviously effects that were once Conditions don't give Beats.  For those Conditions that used to rely on the Beats element as their mechanical raison d'etre, just trust your players to roleplay appropriately if affected by a non-mechanical roleplaying effect.

Thirdly, for exceptional successes, either use the old way of just coming up with some benefit that seems appropriate or, if you can't, just tell the player that their Awesome Perception Exceptional Success means they now get a +2 bonus to their next roll this scene using (appropriate skill), or whatnot.

If we've already stripped out Beats, Conditions are just packages of text floating free from their sources.  Previous nWoD already had lots of powers that did this or that to you; Conditions just unified those under a single category.  Reversing this is straightforward.

As for Tilts, they're either just Called Shot types - which you can treat as Called Shots just fine - or Environmental Tilts.  You can ignore the Environmental Tilts anyway without really losing anything; some of them provide nice ideas for how to model particular environmental effects, others are... rather wonky (omnicidal winds!) and can be ignored without issue.

Quote from: Acrozatarim;783619They also allow, mechanically, for effects that target the Condition category.  I can make a special ability that allows me to shrug off Conditions or ignore them for a bit.  This is simpler than a rule that works by allowing me to shrug off a set group of effects that I now need to define, which have not been defined in the effects themselves as belonging to that group.

Thank you for your input.

This is fine, except you don't need a pre-packaged list to do that. You can just say in its text that power x creates a condition, and keep the condition category intact.

QuoteSo far, so design/mechanical.  What about from the playing side of things? Well, in theory it can help a player juggle various effects that they've been hit with, in that it's easier to reference, say, Shadow Paranoia when it's something that you're using or having used on you regularly, rather than that whole block of effect. You can glance at the Condition names affecting you and ideally get a quicker read on things.  My players, at least, seem to find this to be the case.

I don't understand this. Every power has its own rules in addition to any "condition" effect, which in this case means you'd have to look up both the power and the condition rules in two separate books. I would think that having the entirety of the power's rules in the same place would be quicker. Of course, the quickest version would be one wherein every ability didn't get its own exception-based effect. I don't expect to see that happen, though.

Consolidating the effects is itself not a bad idea, but I cynically expect that we'll see it underused (powers that don't cause conditions) in addition to condition bloat (this power uses a different kind of blindness) as time goes on. Also, this and other changes, like the social combat, suggest that this game is just getting more rules additions at the expense of fluid roleplay. Conditions are something that Dungeons and Dragons has. If my character is "spooked" in WoD, the character just acts that way, and maybe the GM gives me a dice penalty.

Something that hasn't been addressed to my liking is the side-effects of interweaving all these mechanics. Integrity, Beats, and Conditions all interact. In my current game, I use the Mirrors Sanity system instead of Morality or Integrity, so characters don't have breaking points. I've yet to sit down and work out how much this affects, but it certainly affects conditions. That's one reason I'm not using most of the new rules right now.

I'm just going back and forth here. The first time I saw the conditions and Integrity system, I thought they were fantastic. I'll have to try the rules as written before making a final decision on them.

What happen to role playing it out?  You got blinded so you role play as a person that can't see is a fine example.  Why do we need a condition for being blind?

Quote from: Warthur;782115You guys do realise that beats are meant to be in addition to rather than instead of your usual XP, right?

They don't and it's one reason Hunter fans are pissed about Mage 2e. Basically Mages give a fuck about Hunters. If any other non-mage antagonist. They worry about how much Paradox they build up and rather to try and soak it or release it and take a paradox effect like MtAs while killing you. You better be in a crowd or you are straight fucked. And that doesn't mean a five man A-Team.:)

God help you if you're facing a mage with a rote, legacy and and a few praxis. Or a typical Master of any Path.

Quote from: Snowman0147;783807What happen to role playing it out?  You got blinded so you role play as a person that can't see is a fine example.  Why do we need a condition for being blind?

Any starting mage negates typical blindness from the start. It's been that way from Mage the Ascension and basically automatic like Kindred of the East in Mage the Awakening 2e. You're weak assed Obrimos 1 gnosis 2 Forces 2 Prime 1 Life 1 Spirit automatically sees all energy, shadow world, living organisms, and mana/magic items within line of sight WITHOUT spending mana to really investigate (which they get back except the original 1 point for their trouble). Given that is their whole purpose. Mages are Columbo on steroids.... it's literally how they level up.

Now with Mind/Space it gets really fun.....

Quote from: Snowman0147;783807What happen to role playing it out?  You got blinded so you role play as a person that can't see is a fine example.  Why do we need a condition for being blind?

Conditions are just an update to the flaws system. They were optional rules intended to aid roleplaying, however. They were easily ignored. "Blind" was an exception, as it was not listed as a flaw and only described as "Fighting Blind."

My issue with the new conditions system is that its presentation feels like part of a concentrated move in a particular direction. Much like Exalted got bogged down in abstruse systems, this second edition of WoD is becoming more and more like other roleplaying games with the rationale that it's "evolving." I get that the writers want to pull in material from other games and their own tables in an effort to improve it.

Quote from: Snowman0147;783807What happen to role playing it out?  You got blinded so you role play as a person that can't see is a fine example.  Why do we need a condition for being blind?

I agree. During the years the nWoD got more rules where it doesn't really need rules. I often asked myself: Why do I need rules for that? In hindsight I make the conclusion the original new WoD has very good rules. It isn't the rules that need fixing, it's the setting.

Quote from: Harshael;783733Also, this and other changes, like the social combat, suggest that this game is just getting more rules additions at the expense of fluid roleplay. Conditions are something that Dungeons and Dragons has. If my character is "spooked" in WoD, the character just acts that way, and maybe the GM gives me a dice penalty.

D&D. That's what I thought as well. I give dice penalties as well. Most stuff is being roleplayed.

Yeah and we see DnD actually cutting down the mechanics.  5e isn't basic edition, but it is far easier to get than 3e and 4e.  While DnD is cutting down on bloat nWoD is taking in more bloat.  Did I just enter the Twilight Zone?

Edit:  Also I stand corrected.  The mortal merits don't rely on beats and conditions.  I was wrong about that.

Hey I had been thinking on this for a while?  I been slowly making a game system that is a mixture of FATE and traditional role playing games.  I am also thinking up a game that is similar to mortal nWoD and notice that this forum site allows play by post.  Anyone want to test out my game system?

Quote from: Harshael;780239I agree and was surprised to find in the comment section that anyone actually liked titles like "Blood and Smoke: The Strix Chronicle." If you're not a diehard fanperson, you'll never know what that's supposed to mean. No wonder they have to jack up prices. They're selling only to their base now.

To be fair, it's a better title than "Sex Murder". ;)

Quote from: Bugaboo82;785018To be fair, it's a better title than "Sex Murder". ;)

Only marginaly better ! But, yeah, BS is a nice sound for this book !  ;) (I'm a bit unfair there, the PDF is beautiful and the cities chapter is interesting. And, yes, no more predator taint which was uninteresting !)

Okay, now that I have opened with some humor, time to get a bit more in depth.  Qualms with developers aside  (my own, or those of others), I actually like the new system.  There are flaws.  Nothing in this world is flawless.  Nothing.  But I find for the most part that the improvements outweigh the flaws.

I have skipped a lot of this thread, but noticed some dislike the Beats and Conditions systems.  I for one like those, but I guess because I am one of those sorts of players that likes to have a PC fail from time to time.  And being rewarded for it and learning (something my PCs were able to do, but not quite in the same way before the new system) at the same time makes it all the sweeter.  It encourages certain sorts of playstyles and the risk vs rewards of taking that beat over a simple failure, as one small example of the things I like about it.

I would outline being in favour of the Conditions, but that mostly plays hand in hand with the Beats thing.

Now, as for the things I dislike, these are fairly minor things which are pretty much a part of any game system.  Namely inconsistent, poorly worded, or simply very vague rulings.  A lot of these are in regards to merits, a big one being the Mystery Cult Initiation merit.

It goes on to provide guidelines for benefits for being a part of a cult, but doesn't really go into much detail about how this affects Supernaturals that are part of these cults, as the Supernatural merits which can be potentially gained from this merit are explicitly stated to be for non-supernaturals only.

Most times when I ask the developers about this, I'm told it's down to ST interpretation, but that kinda can make for a lot of inconsistency when we then look at this from an online roleplayer standpoint.  Some venue STs can be very restrictive.  And while one ST might bow down to a player for their creativity in making a cult which grants psychic abilities to a faction of Ordo Dracul members that use Parapsychology as a means of transcendence, another more narrow minded ST might say "NO, YOU CANNOT HAVE TELEKINESIS FOR YOUR DRAGON EVEN IF IT IS SOMETHING DESCRIBED IN THE OD COVENANT BOOK AS A PRT OF THEIR EXPERIMENTATION!".  This is not a personal gripe based on some experience mind you, but I have seen some pretty restrictive Nazis get ST positions, let me tell you.

Another one would be the Swarm Form merit in B&S.  Swarms have ALWAYS been a problem with their publications, because it seems like each different variation in each different book has different rules.  I can only recall about two or three (if that) books from the previous edition which had consistent swarm rules, and even those were just a tad vague.  And then we get the current merit which certainly gives you the movement of the Swarm Form, but that's about it.  Nothing about the other stats whatsoever.

I would like to say that we are supposed to just use the same stats we would use if the PC was in the form of a single beast, but given the slight differences given in SF, I find it unlikely it's that simple.

And I won't even talk too much about the baffling inclusion of an insta-kill power (Merciless Gunman) in a game where one could easily face creatures that take different damage types from mundane weapons, like, you know, VAMPIRES!

Now, it might sound like I am angry in writing this, but quite the opposite. As stated, I love the new system.  But I just wish a little more thought in regards to all splats (current, and upcoming) was put into certain design elements.  And while it's likely that someone will crow the system was not designed for crossover, well, I can't really agree, given as they're all written under the same rules set, unlike oWoD.  Not to mention, the online RPG community has made it readily apparent that they loves them some crossover.

I always use the Group Beat option (I invented it) in full chronicles. But for one-off games like conventions I tend to remove the Virtue and Vice mechanics and give Willpower points instead of Beats - it's one less thing to concentrate on as a player, and keeps the game's resource economy going.

Must remember to try to get that into a book at some point.


Oh, and for the record - I also invented the "Dramatic Failures give you a Beat" thing, and I really don't like FATE at all. Conditions don't really behave that much like Aspects from what I remember of that system; they're a categorization thing, collecting up a lot of minor modifiers that would come up in play and attaching the xp system to them.

Quote from: Snowman0147;784058Hey I had been thinking on this for a while?  I been slowly making a game system that is a mixture of FATE and traditional role playing games.  I am also thinking up a game that is similar to mortal nWoD and notice that this forum site allows play by post.  Anyone want to test out my game system?

Sure. Warning: My characters tend to be butterfingers MacGyver, so be wary of a clusterfuck here and there.

Quote from: Bugaboo82;785018To be fair, it's a better title than "Sex Murder". ;)

The WW community loves those titles. But then again they also love prose like:

"The truth is out there and it crawls into some like a worm boring into the flesh of an apple. Shattered memories are slowly taped together. Scars on skin tell an inescapable tale. For every voice that tells a person to deny what she saw, what she remembers, what she feels, there exists a bigger, meaner voice that gives it to her straight: we are not alone. We sleep next to beasts. We drink with monsters. We feel their hands at our throats, their fingers in our mouths, their breath in our ear. Monsters are real.".

I prefer "Monster are real and you have to kill them.". I think they are trying to soak up the atmosphere of the books and I rather have something written straight to the point.

Sweet got one player.   Got any others?

Quote from: jan paparazzi;785064The WW community loves those titles. But then again they also love prose like:

"The truth is out there and it crawls into some like a worm boring into the flesh of an apple. Shattered memories are slowly taped together. Scars on skin tell an inescapable tale. For every voice that tells a person to deny what she saw, what she remembers, what she feels, there exists a bigger, meaner voice that gives it to her straight: we are not alone. We sleep next to beasts. We drink with monsters. We feel their hands at our throats, their fingers in our mouths, their breath in our ear. Monsters are real.".

I prefer "Monster are real and you have to kill them.". I think they are trying to soak up the atmosphere of the books and I rather have something written straight to the point.

I can appreciate an attempt at being deep and invoking disturbing imagery in the mind.  These are horror games, after all.

I hear there is also a new splat in the works called Beast, which is apparently your eldritch horrors sort of splat.  However, I cannot help but feel there's a bit of thematic reverb going on.

When Promethean was released I was a bit meh, because it's basically about your reanimated dead bodies theme, which I dislike, as the Frankenstein's monster thing always kinda bugged me.  I know it has other big stompies as aspects in it, but to me, it's all about the flesh golem archtype, whatever way they cut it.

Fast forward to Geist and you once more have guys kinda like promies, but also like Mages, with maybe a smattering of Demon.  Okay...  well, sorta different, I guess, and a nod to Wraith.  Whatever.

Then they make Mummy.  Okay, so there was a Mummy game in old world, some folks wanted that back.  It's probably great.  I don't dig mummies either, though.  Not to mention, mummies are technically just another type of Promie, in the Ossian.

Then there's Demon.  Which takes a lot of elements common in Changeling and sort of rehash them.

And this Beast thing, where apparently you play the ancient beasts of old, just sounds like Changeling again, what with you being based off of various myths and tales of scary things.

On the other hand, though, the more potential tentacles, the better, so I am most curious about this Beast game.

Quote from: Snowman0147;785067Sweet got one player.   Got any others?

I might recommend a thread of it's own if you're recruiting.  While I understand your personal qualms with rival developers, it might better help your cause if you provide a readily accessible means to show off your work in progress rules set and get people interested.  Please don't take this as any sort of negativity, simply helpful advice.

Since DtD is out in PDF and in print, has  anyone played it ?

Quote from: Bugaboo82;785074entire post

There already is a lot of overlap. You can make demons with Hunter the vigil, Inferno and Demon for example. Or werewolves with Forsaken, Skinchangers and Changing Breeds. New WoD gives you a lot of different rules to do the same things you could already do. Like all those social combat rules.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;785197There already is a lot of overlap. You can make demons with Hunter the vigil, Inferno and Demon for example. Or werewolves with Forsaken, Skinchangers and Changing Breeds. New WoD gives you a lot of different rules to do the same things you could already do. Like all those social combat rules.

I was so fixated on the subtle overlap that I neglected to mention the overt ones, but yes, the fact there are 3 (4, if you count ling) books out that let you make furries is kinda silly.  And one in particular is a flat out abomination (Changing Breeds) while another is just a tad...  vague and inconsistent in it's rules (Skinchangers).

As for the Demons, eh, well, one of those is more of an antagonists book (Inferno), though I can't remember whether or not the Possessed were meant to be a PC type.  Then there is the whole "Firey pits of hell" vs "Matrix ripoff" difference between Lucifuge demons and God Machine demons.

Haven't really looked at anything after Hunter: The Vigil. I mean, I did give Geist a cursory read when it came out, but I couldn't care less for Mummy and Demon. Didn't care about them as playable splays in the oWoD, don't think I will in the nWoD (though a case can be made for mummies, between the Universal Boris Karloff depiction and the V:tM 1e-era supplement).

Is it too soon to say that I'm a nWoD grognard? ;)

Quote from: The Butcher;785231Haven't really looked at anything after Hunter: The Vigil. I mean, I did give Geist a cursory read when it came out, but I couldn't care less for Mummy and Demon. Didn't care about them as playable splays in the oWoD, don't think I will in the nWoD (though a case can be made for mummies, between the Universal Boris Karloff depiction and the V:tM 1e-era supplement).

Is it too soon to say that I'm a nWoD grognard? ;)

Maybe I will also join you  in the dreadful ranks of the nWoD grognards (except the fact I am willing to give the DtD corebook a chance).

Actually, is there an new nWoD ? ^^

Quote from: yabaziou;785238Maybe I will also join you  in the dreadful ranks of the nWoD grognards (except the fact I am willing to give the DtD corebook a chance).

Actually, is there an new nWoD ? ^^

Kinda. They retconned the god machine chronicle and blood and smoke the strix chronicle as official WoD 2.0 and Requiem 2.0. The new settings are more flavorful (yay) but the rules are more rules medium than rules light (booh). It resembles Fate a little bit.

Quote from: The Butcher;785231Is it too soon to say that I'm a nWoD grognard? ;)

I've liked the newer takes on the settings... Changeling and Promethean... and the new core hunter stuff... but while I was mostly reading to steal ideas for other games I would have happily played under the nWoD system.
These new rules... as described in this thread... full of game-hipster jargon-goop to my ears... and too much mechanical oversight of the play.
Similar to my hopes that the new Exalted would much more streamlined and straightforward, which doesn't seem to be what's in the pipe.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;785285Kinda. They retconned the god machine chronicle and blood and smoke the strix chronicle as official WoD 2.0 and Requiem 2.0. .

Only half true - Blood & Smoke is getting a new logo, a find/replace on its name in the text and a few very minor errata changes that didn't get caught between the pdf and the print on demand book coming out last December, so if you buy it in a few month's time it'll be called Requiem 2nd ed.

The God-Machine Chronicle was a supplement for the wod corebook, not a replacement for it - it was the first place the rules revision was published, but not the only place (the rules patch was reprinted verbatim in Demon, and you can get it for free as a pdf seperately to the God-Machine book.) and it still required the corebook for things like "what the skills are" and "how the basic dice action in the game works."

Now that CCP has given us the go-ahead, we're doing a proper World Of Darkness Second Edition corebook. The supernatural gamelines don't require it any more going forward (vampire 2e has both the core rules that changed and the ones that didn't in it, as will the others) but they don't have room for some less-used rules like car chases and statted npcs and animals - the new corebook will. It'll take a while longer to compile than Requiem 2ed's rebranding, but it's on the way.

Quote from: DaveB;785353Only half true - Blood & Smoke is getting a new logo, a find/replace on its name in the text and a few very minor errata changes that didn't get caught between the pdf and the print on demand book coming out last December, so if you buy it in a few month's time it'll be called Requiem 2nd ed.

The God-Machine Chronicle was a supplement for the wod corebook, not a replacement for it - it was the first place the rules revision was published, but not the only place (the rules patch was reprinted verbatim in Demon, and you can get it for free as a pdf seperately to the God-Machine book.) and it still required the corebook for things like "what the skills are" and "how the basic dice action in the game works."

Now that CCP has given us the go-ahead, we're doing a proper World Of Darkness Second Edition corebook. The supernatural gamelines don't require it any more going forward (vampire 2e has both the core rules that changed and the ones that didn't in it, as will the others) but they don't have room for some less-used rules like car chases and statted npcs and animals - the new corebook will. It'll take a while longer to compile than Requiem 2ed's rebranding, but it's on the way.

Thank you for this answer ! I was under the impression that Blood & Smoke was effectively Requiem 2nd edition, but CCP had some reluctancy to let Onyx Path use this name.

As a old WW fan (I have played Vampire the Masquarade since 1998), I'm glad that Richard Thomas and Onyx Path continue the WW legacy (oWoD and nWoD) even if I am not currently interest in following their new releases (except DtD).

The release of Vampire the Masqarade was an event in the RPG world and its aftermath can still be feel today.

It is a good thing that newcomers to RPG can find WW/OPP products (as it as also good that they can find D&D products).

Quote from: yabaziou;785354Thank you for this answer ! I was under the impression that Blood & Smoke was effectively Requiem 2nd edition, but CCP had some reluctancy to let Onyx Path use this name.

As a old WW fan (I have play Vampire the Masquarade), I'm glad that Richard Thomas and Onyx Path continue the WW legacy (oWoD and nWoD) even if I am not currently interest in following their new releases (except DtD).

The release of Vampire the Masqarade was an event in the RPG world and its aftermath can still be feel today.

It is a good thing that newcomers to RPG can find WW/OPP products (as it as also good that they can find D&D products).

They didn't want us to bring an rpg book out called "World of Darkness Second Edition" when they were bringing out an MMO called "World of Darkness." MMO got cancelled, we got permission.

Our Icelandic overlords are actually pretty good as licensors go. They review books and pitches  really quickly compared to some licensed games I've worked on, and retained the guy who used to handle our license as a contractor even after he was laid off from the MMO, in order to keep the business relationship.

Masquerade is still chugging along with books, by the way, following its 20th Anniversary edition.

EDIT - and I'm glad you like Demon. It was a lot of fun to write.

"Icelandic overlords" is quite fun to read ! It sounds like you have been raided and enslaved by Norsemen !

To further write about my liking of DtD, I strongly like the (justified) paranoia of the protagonists : God is after us ! It is an nightmare straight from an gnostic view of the workings of the Universe that also remind me of another RPG of modern horror : Kult !

Actually, if OPP could convince the present owner of the Kult IP to let them use its settings, it could be an awesome news and it could lead to the creation of an truly enthralling RPG of cosmic horror (God is gone, after robbing humankind of its birthrignt and enslaving it for countless millenia. You Awake to the reality (using the demon template in RPG terminology) and face the impossible to believe !).

Maybe more feasible, It could be cool that OPP convinces CCP to let them join effort with Evil Hat in order to produce a nWoD powered by Fate (just a corebook by supernatural template, like GURPS did in ancient times). I think il could be nice launching pad for both IP and RPG companies.

But again, I should not daydream ! ^^

I love how DtD gives even supposedly nice demons a really compelling reason to lust after people's souls (namely, if you can get someone to give you their soul you can take them over and use them as Cover, so if the God-Machine is onto you you can jump ship).

As far as Demon/Kult goes, I agree that there could be lots of scope for crossover. Simply make the God-Machine the Illusion itself in Kult terms; this adds an exciting twist to baseline Kult by having the Illusion be this living, active thing which is gradually getting more and more malfunctional without the Demiurge's oversight, and twists the God-Machine by having it be gradually falling to bits due to the various conspiracies and forces that should be maintaining it being distracted by other things. (DtD Demons can then be the consequence of the Machine beginning to fail.)

Quote from: DaveB;785353Only half true - Blood & Smoke is getting a new logo, a find/replace on its name in the text and a few very minor errata changes that didn't get caught between the pdf and the print on demand book coming out last December, so if you buy it in a few month's time it'll be called Requiem 2nd ed.

The God-Machine Chronicle was a supplement for the wod corebook, not a replacement for it - it was the first place the rules revision was published, but not the only place (the rules patch was reprinted verbatim in Demon, and you can get it for free as a pdf seperately to the God-Machine book.) and it still required the corebook for things like "what the skills are" and "how the basic dice action in the game works."

Now that CCP has given us the go-ahead, we're doing a proper World Of Darkness Second Edition corebook. The supernatural gamelines don't require it any more going forward (vampire 2e has both the core rules that changed and the ones that didn't in it, as will the others) but they don't have room for some less-used rules like car chases and statted npcs and animals - the new corebook will. It'll take a while longer to compile than Requiem 2ed's rebranding, but it's on the way.

So B&S is officially vampire 2nd edition and GMC is a supplement, but with the WoD 2nd edition ruleset.

I didn't know you are going to do an official wod 2nd edition. I thought the GMC rules were the official 2nd edition rules. But now it appears the be the offical rules minus car chases?

Quote from: Bugaboo82;785076I might recommend a thread of it's own if you're recruiting.  While I understand your personal qualms with rival developers, it might better help your cause if you provide a readily accessible means to show off your work in progress rules set and get people interested.  Please don't take this as any sort of negativity, simply helpful advice.

Good point.  Personally I thought the thread was dead at the time.  So for those that want to try out the play by post as a experiment lab rat here is the link (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=30564).  This will cover basic rules and character creation.  Like I said it is meant to be rules light.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;785388I didn't know you are going to do an official wod 2nd edition.

Neither did I until I turned up at the booth Thursday morning at GenCon.

QuoteI thought the GMC rules were the official 2nd edition rules. But now it appears the be the offical rules minus car chases?

The rules patch in God-Machine and Demon is a (very hefty) set of changes to the system, which leaves out everything that didn't change. You can't run a game, or even create a character, with it alone. Vampire 2 meshes the patch together with the missing parts, then cuts quite a lot out for space, in its core rules chapter. The new corebook will do the meshing without the space-cutting.

So basicly like how nWoD was done before.  Core mortal book for all the rules in the game.  Then venue books if you want to play as a monster.

Onyx Path needs to find a way to give some kind of discount via DriveThruRPG's or whatnot to brick and mortar stores to incentivize them to stock their books in stores again. Not doing so is missing a huge segment of the market for no good reason.

Quote from: Marleycat;785468Onyx Path needs to find a way to give some kind of discount via DriveThruRPG's or whatnot to brick and mortar stores to incentivize them to stock their books in stores again. Not doing so is missing a huge segment of the market for no good reason.

DriveThru have been working on this for a while - I don't know if it's just us, or if we're one of several companies in on it, but the Beta for the Retailer Discount accounts has been going on for several months. My own FLGS is thinking of getting in on it.

Quote from: DaveB;785451Neither did I until I turned up at the booth Thursday morning at GenCon.

I see. You are a freelancer?

Quote from: DaveB;785451The rules patch in God-Machine and Demon is a (very hefty) set of changes to the system, which leaves out everything that didn't change. You can't run a game, or even create a character, with it alone. Vampire 2 meshes the patch together with the missing parts, then cuts quite a lot out for space, in its core rules chapter. The new corebook will do the meshing without the space-cutting.

WW does have a nasty habit of spreading out both rules and setting details among numerous books. They just make a chapter when it comes up in their head I guess. Books become a a bit of a grab bag, like Danse Macabre which could have been at least three different books.

So good thing they bundle everything in a core.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;785505I see. You are a freelancer?

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I presume we're talking to Dave Brookshaw, author of the epic Broken Diamond campaign for Mage: the Awakening (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?279847-Actual-Play-Mage-The-Awakening-The-Broken-Diamond-%28contains-Reign-of-the-Exarchs) (serialized in RPGnet's Actual Play subforum), which probably single-handedly sold hundreds of people (myself included) on this amazing game, and has since gone on to work for White Wolf.

I may be mixing up things but I believe he is or was the line developer for Mage: the Awakening.

Dave, I've been reading Seers of the Throne a lot lately. It's a great book and I'll probably run an Awakening campaign (finally!) after the current one. Good job. :)

/threadjack

I really don't like how Seers was done.  Mind you I don't like how Pure was done for werewolf either.  I always wanted the intelligent antagonists have none selfish reasons why they do those things.

Seers could had been a knock out punch.  It could had painted that Seers were possibly in the right and have very real reasons why they don't want people to awaken.  Maybe the supernal realm is too deadly to the fallen world, destroy all reality, and bring back pointless chaos if only enough pull was achieve.  It didn't have to be true, but it gives them some thing to fight for.

Instead we got greedy men that want every thing for themselves and yes they would fuck over their followers.  Now your playable mages from the other orders can take it to the MAN!  That is what seers look like to me.  Cigar smoking assholes that think about profit before any thing else and lets fight off the punks before expose people that they can get products for free.  That is not a deep and compelling antagonists.

Sorry just my subjective opinion and tastes.

I am not familiar with both Forsaken and Awakening (only Requiem and Vigil), but I think this might have something to do with the toolkit design. I am speculating here, but if those groups might be right doesn't that mean an auto inclusion in the setting? If the supernal realms are too deadly, then the Seers have to be in the setting or else everyone dies. Which means Awakening becomes a fixed setting again like Ascension.

Quote from: The Butcher;785510Please correct me if I'm wrong but I presume we're talking to Dave Brookshaw, author of the epic Broken Diamond campaign for Mage: the Awakening (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?279847-Actual-Play-Mage-The-Awakening-The-Broken-Diamond-%28contains-Reign-of-the-Exarchs) (serialized in RPGnet's Actual Play subforum), which probably single-handedly sold hundreds of people (myself included) on this amazing game, and has since gone on to work for White Wolf.

I may be mixing up things but I believe he is or was the line developer for Mage: the Awakening.

Dave, I've been reading Seers of the Throne a lot lately. It's a great book and I'll probably run an Awakening campaign (finally!) after the current one. Good job. :)

/threadjack

Yeah, I'm the Mage: The Awakening Developer. Currently wrangling its second edition together.

Seers was my second White Wolf credit, and my first Mage book.

Quote from: DaveB;785520Yeah, I'm the Mage: The Awakening Developer. Currently wrangling its second edition together.

Seers was my second White Wolf credit, and my first Mage book.

So was the 2nd edition a very late decision or doesn't Onyx Path know how to text or whatsapp? :p

Quote from: jan paparazzi;785523So was the 2nd edition a very late decision or doesn't Onyx Path know how to text or whatsapp? :p

Awakening's or the WoD corebook? I've been working on Awakening Second Ed for just over two years now. Changing its name from "Mystery Play: The Fallen World Chronicle" to "Mage: The Awakening Second Edition" took a few minutes and CTRL-R. It didn't even alter the wordcount!

Apparently, other line Developers who weren't in the middle of a six thousand mile journey to Indianapolis got told via the miracle of Skype, but they waited to tell me in person as I was on my way anyway. It's GenCon. Impromptu announcements happen.

Quote from: DaveB;785527Awakening's or the WoD corebook? I've been working on Awakening Second Ed for just over two years now. Changing its name from "Mystery Play: The Fallen World Chronicle" to "Mage: The Awakening Second Edition" took a few minutes and CTRL-R. It didn't even alter the wordcount!

Apparently, other line Developers who weren't in the middle of a six thousand mile journey to Indianapolis got told via the miracle of Skype, but they waited to tell me in person as I was on my way anyway. It's GenCon. Impromptu announcements happen.

No sweat, man! Just poking fun at you a little bit. It's just some sort of litmus test I do with everyone to see if they are ok. You passed. :D

Quote from: DaveB;785520Yeah, I'm the Mage: The Awakening Developer. Currently wrangling its second edition together.

Seers was my second White Wolf credit, and my first Mage book.

I've been lurking at the Onyx Path forums off and on so let me just say I am liking Yantras, reach, paradox and how you seem to be portraying the Seers. Though I am still confused on just how rotes and legacies work this time around. And not 100% confident I have paradox down because your blog example is unclear to me a bit.

Because the example Mage has Space 3 using a Space 2 spell so by my understanding he should have 3 free reaches not 2 before worrying about paradox right? I infer that reach is tied to Arcana while your base paradox without additional factors is dependent on gnosis? And pretty much you will risk paradox if you go beyond your free reach regardless of what you do unless inside a demesne, astral space or a supernal verge?

If so, is it less than 1e (1-2=1, 2-3=2 etc)? Because if not it would definitely scale magic use right back to Mage the Ascension Revised style and I hated that.

Quote from: Marleycat;785556I've been lurking at the Onyx Path forums off and on so let me just say I am liking Yantras, reach, paradox and how you seem to be portraying the Seers. Though I am still confused on just how rotes and legacies work this time around. And not 100% confident I have paradox down because your blog example is unclear to me a bit.

Because the example Mage has Space 3 using a Space 2 spell so by my understanding he should have 3 free reaches not 2 before worrying about paradox right? I infer that reach is tied to Arcana while your base paradox without additional factors is dependent on gnosis? And pretty much you will risk paradox if you go beyond your free reach regardless of what you do unless inside a demesne, astral space or a supernal verge?

If so, is it less than 1e (1-2=1, 2-3=2 etc)? Because if not it would definitely scale magic use right back to Mage the Ascension Revised style and I hated that.

Reach is one per dot of Arcana you meet or exceed the spell's requirements by - for a space 2 spell, a mage with space 1 can't cast it, space 2 has 1 reach, space 3 has 2, space 4 has 3, and space 5 (or a rote) has 4.

For every Reach you to past those free amounts, you get your Gnosis' paradox pool, which get larger with increased gnosis but aren't as big at the top end than they are in 1e.

It's basically perfectly safe to cast within your limits, a bit risky to go one reach beyond, but if you're trying to pull off a spell two or three reaches past your safe limit, you're pushing your luck.

Thank you for the quick reply Dave.:)