I think Grubman was yelling about this a bit ago, but in truth, the Olde School games may wither on the vine unless a good deal more material starts getting out there.  I know there are a fair number of adventures out there, but nothing along the lines of Rogue's Gallery.  I am led to understand that there are a few large-ish and growing campaign settings out there.  Or maybe Grubman hit the nail on the head with smallish but well detailed settings.

So, throw out a few opinions.  What do you remember from the old days that really cranked your interest up a notch?  What is needed to get the momentum into high gear for the Olde School movement?  Direct clones of some of the old stuff would be good, but new stuff that addresses some of what the old material covered, perhaps in greater detail, would be better.

Campaign settings are good. I've never been too interested in adventure modules, and am terrible at writing them.

Stuff that inspires and enthuses players and GM is good. And for that we need campaign settings. Like Pseudoephedrine often says, not that rubbish where all the coolness is in the premise and then it just fizzles - "A robot implanted with the brain of Napoleon, Marilyn Monroe as a zombie lesbianstripperninja, and Snake Gandhi - together they fight crime!" - but rather one which is rich with possibilities and interesting adventure hooks.

Basically every game group is like a car that needs a push-start, and then it powers along by itself. The setting's the push-start.

Yes, we need more of those.

My main interest is in adventures and micro-settings, like Grubman's Phoenix Barony or the Points of Light pack from Goodman.  Interesting monster compilations would be good too, covering gaps in standard Labyrinth Lord/Basic Fantasy - eg a book of Demons & Angels, fightable by mid-level PCs (say 3rd-7th) so similar in power to the demons of the old 1e MM, though they don't need so many special powers & immunities.

I like stuff I can insert into my game without much fuss, and stuff that inspires me.  I'm all for small settings/towns/areas that I can pop into my existing setting/game.  I also like adventures that are modules that can be easily inserted into the game; this often, but not always, means site-based stuff.  I find it very easy to create NPCs with older editions, so fully-statted books of NPCs wouldn't interest me.  Books of cool monsters, spells, and the like are always welcome, though, both for direct use and as a creative springboard.  

I liked the 2e historical reference series (one of the few things I liked about 2e, actually).  Something like those might be cool.  I tended to use those for one-shots and mini-series "campaigns," rather than in my main game, so the "easily incorporate it into the existing campaign" criteria is less important, there.  There's lots of room for this kind of thing beyond just "historical," too.  You could do with with genre: sword-n-planet, for example.

Other stuff I find useful are charts/tables/lists, like those found in the 1e DMG appendices, or in Gary Gygax's World Builder, or the Judges Guild Ready Ref Sheets.  (Of course, offering something new, here, might be difficult.)  Perhaps something that helps DMs create riddles, puzzles, and player-oriented challenges?  Perhaps something that discusses the importance of the dungeon map (along the lines of Melan's posts in this dungeon mapping thread).  How about interesting set-pieces or sublevels that could be used in an existing dungeon (like The Original Living Room)?

Quote from: StormBringer;231132So, throw out a few opinions.  What do you remember from the old days that really cranked your interest up a notch?  What is needed to get the momentum into high gear for the Olde School movement?  Direct clones of some of the old stuff would be good, but new stuff that addresses some of what the old material covered, perhaps in greater detail, would be better.

In the old days, I liked adventure modules. These days, I haven't enjoyed many of the "retro clone" modules I've bought because they are A- Too high magic for me to use in my game without a lot of work (and in that case, I might as well just make my own adventure), or B- Just a "D&D dungeon" that seemed designed to make people remember the "good old days" instead of presenting people's own ideas or giving something not already available. Not much of what I've seen in that area has excited me. Hopefully this doesn't mean my upcoming (by the end of the year... hopefully?) adventures won't be received well since I'm attempting a completely different atmosphere.

Can't stand settings. Every fantasy game I've played since 1990 has used my own setting. You say "setting" and I don't even look at it. I actually find it kind of sad that gamers use other people's settings, but that's just because setting creation and refinement is the entire reason I like running games at all.

"Direct clones of some of the old stuff would be good" is something I personally disagree with... it's all out there already, so if it doesn't add anything new, I'd consider a direct close of previously existing material to be not only worthless, but detrimental to the cause.

I really can't speak as to what will make the movement grow, but the most important thing is to play the damn games. Products are an afterthought. Play them, play them often, and play them as your primary games. I really hope all the people releasing stuff are playing these games and not just dawdling.

And play with people who never played these games before. In my current campaign, four of the (eight) players had never played pre-WotC D&D before, (and I'm using BFRPG as the rules set).

Playing, and playing with new people, is everything for the traditional gaming movement. And you don't have to buy a damn thing except dice, pens, and paper, ever, to do it. The simulacra are free downloads. Getting them, or the original games' books, in hardcopy is extremely cheap and easy. The point of this should be to get the gaming going and make it easier to find groups and play, not so people can make a business out of it. That's what brutalized this hobby in the first place...

But the kind of products I want to see are things that in no way ape the "glory days," but instead shake the whole thing up and take the dust off of the old game while still being true to the spirit (and source influences) of the game at the same time. For example (like I wasn't going to plug my own thing here), my Creature Generator starts from the assumption that the familiar stock monsters of fantasy gaming are a bad thing because people are too familiar with them... so I created something that will make sure players have no idea what they're facing, every single encounter, if that's what the referee wants.

Quote from: JimLotFP;231245"Direct clones of some of the old stuff would be good" is something I personally disagree with... it's all out there already, so if it doesn't add anything new, I'd consider a direct close of previously existing material to be not only worthless, but detrimental to the cause.

Well, I think what I was driving at is that most of that old stuff really isn't out there.  Sure, you can get most of it on PDF, but there are quite a few gaps.  The example I mentioned, The Rogue's Gallery, is more sought for the Erol Otis artwork than usefulness, but the concept is solid.

So, less of a direct copy of old material, as much as a 'retro-clone', in the manner of OSRIC or Labyrinth Lord.  The same feel, perhaps even filling the same niche, but new material.  For example, some extended series of modules to cover the 'Against the Giants'  mega-adventure.

A full setting, but much less detailed, as Kyle notes, or the mini-settings like Grubman's Phoenix Barony that would fit with other mini-settings fairly easily is an example of a niche that wasn't well explored in previous versions.  It could even be as small as an individual town to drop in when needed.

I also appreciate and enjoy home brewed settings, but much of the issue with RPGs these days is the time investment.  Scheduling a game by itself can often be problematic, but the DM having to invest a good deal more time to create a world and populate it can break the back of any group.

In your case, then, perhaps a module that has several statblocks for the treasure levels?  A low/medium/high magic item block for monsters or rooms?  There are certainly smaller scale improvements such as these that could be implemented and retain the Olde School feel of games, while making planning and executing a game session much more streamlined.

Quote from: StormBringer;231249the DM having to invest a good deal more time to create a world.

You don't need to create a world.  Playing old-school it's probably better that you don't.  The initial setting notes for my current campaign took about an hour (creating the gods, Willow Vale, the Trosk Barbarians, Kalara and its priests of Baphomet) and were all intended to tie in with the scenario I had planned, The Wicked Ruins of Cursed Castle Kaladrac.  I've added about 20 minutes' work more background since (the ruins of the Sharan Empire, the Holy Kingdom of Aeth).  I have what feels like a living world that I'm looking forward to exploring.  I have one map, of Willow Vale, the starting area, but no world map, just some vague ideas.  That's more than enough to be going on with.  

Likewise, as said upthread, old school gaming is all about playing, creation can be spur-of-the-moment.  We don't need published settings or adventures.  There are no complex stat blocks to get right.  A game like Moldvay Basic D&D or Labyrinth Lord lets you create a full adventure for the night's play in half an hour, tops.

Quote from: S'mon;231251Likewise, as said upthread, old school gaming is all about playing, creation can be spur-of-the-moment.  We don't need published settings or adventures.  There are no complex stat blocks to get right.  A game like Moldvay Basic D&D or Labyrinth Lord lets you create a full adventure for the night's play in half an hour, tops.

Ok, so you are saying mini-settings (a barony or duchy) or micro-settings (a village or a section of a large town) is about as detailed as setting material should be?  Perhaps a larger region with little detail only rarely?

What about drop-in details about organizations, like the Baphomet priesthood you mentioned?  Rough numbers, vague structure, perhaps some notes on the visibility to the general populace and some secret information?

Quote from: StormBringer;231254Ok, so you are saying mini-settings (a barony or duchy) or micro-settings (a village or a section of a large town) is about as detailed as setting material should be?  Perhaps a larger region with little detail only rarely?

What about drop-in details about organizations, like the Baphomet priesthood you mentioned?  Rough numbers, vague structure, perhaps some notes on the visibility to the general populace and some secret information?

I'm not rabidly opposed to large-but-sketchy settings like Gygax's 1983 World of Greyhawk boxed set (96 pages, AIR), but they're certainly not necessary.

Mini-settings like Phoenix Barony I think are very good for old-style play; again not necessary - I do my own - but useful and inspirational.

Individual elements like castles, inns and villages with some plot hooks can be great.

Organisations - I don't think you need much, more mood/style/theme, not "There are 2346 Acolytes, 347 Priests, 16 Lamas..."

Here's the Religion notes for my campaign:
Setting Background

Holy Church (Lawful/Good)

In the doctrine of the Holy Church of Law, the Creator, known as the Law Giver, married the Holy Mother and gave birth to the Unconquered Sun. The Unconquered Sun commands the Celestial Host of Solars, Planetars, Devas etc in their battle with the Powers of Chaos. There are also numerous Saints of Law - St Cuthbert of the Cudgel, St Pholtus of the Blinding Light, St Heironeus the Paladin, St Rao the Shepherd, etc.
The Holy Church is the official faith of Willow Vale and all goodly folk.

The Old Faith (Neutral/Good).

The Old Faith of the Druids reveres the Creator as Father Sky. Father Sky mated with Mother Earth and gave birth to Sun. The special patron of the druids is the great Spirit of the Woods called Obad-Hai the Shalm.
The Old Faith is the religion of the wild men of the woods, and some simple folk of the Vale.

The Church of Chaos (Chaotic/Evil)

Old Night mated with the Mother of Filth, who birthed Baphomet, the Horned One, the Enemy of the World. Baphomet commans the Demonic Host in their battle with the forces of the Unconquered Sun. There are also numerous Anti-Saints or Chaos Saints - Hextor the brother of Heironeus, Erythnul the Many, Wastri the Hopping Prophet, etc.
The Church of Chaos is followed by evil men, and most especially by the Theocracy of Kalara in the southern deserts.

The Trosk (Neutral/Chaotic)
The Trosk barbarians have their own beliefs. They know the Creator as Vatun the Sky Lord, his wife as Frith the Earth-Mother, and their son the Unconquered Sun as Kord, the Lord of Strength. However, many Trosk have fallen under the evil influence of the Church of Chaos

_____________

Here's the Geography:
Geography

Arda
Arda, the Wooded Realm, is a lush and fertile temperate land which stretches from the Southern Uplands and Willow Vale north for hundreds of miles, broken here and there by hills and moors. Much of Arda is a wilderness roamed by monsters and giants, but here and there the light of civilisation still flickers. West of Arda lies the World Ocean, while to the east are the Giant Lands, the home of ogres and trolls who lair amongst the ruins of the Sharan Empire. Beyond Arda to the north are the Frozen Lands of mountains, snow and shining plains of ice said to stretch to the End of the World.

The Trosk Mountains
A great mountain range separates Arda to the north from Kalara to the south. Home of the fierce and hostile Trosk barbarians, it?s said that wild dragons lair among the high peaks.

Kalara
Once a pleasant and fertile realm similar to Arda, Kalara was conquered by the minions of Baphomet centuries ago. Now the corrupted land of Kalara is a vast expanse of burning desert waste, dotted with oases and the sand-swept ruins of earlier days. The people of Kalara fear the sun and cover themselves with heavy robes, so that only their eyes are visible. It is said that the people of Kalara revere Baphomet as the Horned Moon, Enemy of the Sun, and sacrifice droves of virgins to this fell power in order to receive his protection. The priests of the Horned Moon have diabolical powers, it?s said that some have even pierced the Veil that separates Life and Death.

The Sharan Empire
A thousand years ago the Great City of Shar ruled these lands in a golden age. Sharan Priests brought the Holy Church of the Unconquered Sun (Sol Invinctis) to these lands from the east, gradually displacing the Old Faith. But over time the Sharans grew decadent and weak. Some even turned to the worship of Chaos. Eventually monstrous invasions brought down the empire and sacked Shar herself. Today Shar is a ruined city inhabited by terrible beasts, where the only free Men are the foul Priests of Baphomet. However, rumours persist that far, far to the east the city of New Shar still endures, preserving the knowledge and learning of the Ancients.

The Holy Kingdom of Aeth
Far, far to the south, beyond the burning wastes of Kalara, it is said that there lies the good and noble realm of Aeth, where everyone?s complexion is black from the rays of the Holy Sun. Ruled by a long line of Lawful priest-kings, and protected by mighty Paladins of the Unconquered Sun, for centuries the Kingdom of Aeth has defied the unholy forces of Baphomet. A few black knights of Aeth have even reached southern Arda, bringing friendly greetings from the Priest-Kings and welcome aid against the powers of Chaos.

QuoteWell, I think what I was driving at is that most of that old stuff really isn't out there. Sure, you can get most of it on PDF, but there are quite a few gaps. The example I mentioned, The Rogue's Gallery, is more sought for the Erol Otis artwork than usefulness, but the concept is solid.

QuoteOther stuff I find useful are charts/tables/lists, like those found in the 1e DMG appendices, or in Gary Gygax's World Builder, or the Judges Guild Ready Ref Sheets.

Get any or all of my free netbooks. CDD#4, in particular, incorporates the Rogues Gallery, Monster & Treasure Assortments, Ready Ref Sheets and the DMG appendices as well as a slew of other little sub-systems, charts and tables. I play a solitaire metagame with my own campaign world and there's enough here to construct an campaign setting or an adventure from scratch.

There are plenty of good old school products in the pipe and already on sale. Matt Finch's Eldritch Weirdness is really fine. OSRIC v2 is in final proofing and will blow you away. Goodman has also just announced a couple of new 1e modules.

I don't need old school product.  I need to play a game, with a group, which continues on a regular schedule and where I'm not the damn GM for a change.

That's what I'm nostalgic for.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!;231352I don't need old school product.  I need to play a game, with a group, which continues on a regular schedule and where I'm not the damn GM for a change.

That's what I'm nostalgic for.

Do you have IRC?  If you can gather some interest, I could be talked into playing some online stuff.  Maybe even Maptools, if everyone can get it working.

Quote from: Kellri;231331Get any or all of my free netbooks. CDD#4, in particular, incorporates the Rogues Gallery, Monster & Treasure Assortments, Ready Ref Sheets and the DMG appendices as well as a slew of other little sub-systems, charts and tables. I play a solitaire metagame with my own campaign world and there's enough here to construct an campaign setting or an adventure from scratch.

I was looking at those earlier today.  Would you mind if I put them up on my file hosting site and announce them to the Yahoo group?

The only settings I'd be interested in would be those that significantly re-purpose the fundamental D&D rules, as e.g. the 2e historical modules mentioned earlier, or a hack for playing in Barsoom, Pellucidar, etc. For more-or-less generic fantasy/s&s of the type implied by the rules, I'd rather do my own, and as a few have suggested, you don't have to do much--just rely on cliches and tropes for the big picture; the really important stuff is boots-on-the-ground details like site maps and NPCs. So I disagree with Kyle somewhat; I don't think the setting is necessarily the push start; the push-start is rolling up a group of characters who are eager for adventure, and then giving it to them. Big themes are unnecessary and potentially railroad-erific; smaller conflicts can be made up as needed, allowing the world and the "plot" to develop organically.

E.g. suppose there's a "dark lord" in a setting. If the premise of the setting is "the dark lord's minions are on the move, threatening the good people of MarySueLand; it is up to you brave heroes to stop them", that will not interest me. (I also maintain that such is antithetical to the old school ethos.) On the other hand if the role of the dark lord is "below the southern spur of the Mirky Mountains is a dank forest enrobed in mists; at the center is the ominous tower of the dark lord, and dotted nearby are many lairs of foul beasts and hobgoblins who sometimes come forth to terrorize good people; only the bravest or most foolish would dare venture near", then you've got something I can use.

I might be tempted to buy a site-based module, whether a "dungeon", a small outdoors area, or a city. Or a collection of such. A great deal is already available, often free, but more wouldn't hurt IMO, as would having things pre-statted in D&D terms.

Mainly I think that those who say that playing is most important are probably right.

Quote from: StormBringer;231369I was looking at those earlier today.  Would you mind if I put them up on my file hosting site and announce them to the Yahoo group?

Why don't you just link to Kellri's site? Doesn't Yahoo groups have a place for links?