See this post of Ian Watson linking to Facebook (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?586820-White-WOlf-release-schedule-2011-2012&p=14229790#post14229790).
Strange: I didn't think Fuzzy Eco Terrorist was as popular as Fuzzy Spirit Cop?
Lots of stuff has been announced online, at Gen Con, and via Twitter:
Werewolf anniversary edition
Mage anniversary edition sometime after that
Werewolf and Mage conversion guides
A brand new Mummy game(no subtitle as of now)
The "missing" oMage Convention books
Some new Exalted crap, like an updated book on the Guild and a revised Martial Arts book
A vague promise of new VtM stuff beyond just v20
Shards books in the vein of WoD: Mirrors for at least Vampire and Exalted
That's all I can remember off the top of my head. There's a more complete release schedule floating around out there somewhere but heck if I remembered to save the link.
And a Victorian supplement for Changeling the Lost, which sounds like a cool idea.
Quote from: Ian Warner;472008Strange: I didn't think Fuzzy Eco Terrorist was as popular as Fuzzy Spirit Cop?
Not to me! I had almost every Werewolf the Apocalypse book ever made. I flipped through the new version and never bought it or any of it's supplements.
Quote from: GeekEclectic;472023Werewolf anniversary edition
Mage anniversary edition sometime after that
The "missing" oMage Convention books
Awesome! I'll actually be sending WW money again!
The Apocalypse > The Forsaken
The Ascension > The Awakening
Quote from: GeekEclectic;472023A brand new Mummy game(no subtitle as of now)
Mummy: The Bandaged
Quote from: Benoist;472028And a Victorian supplement for Changeling the Lost, which sounds like a cool idea.
I ran a Victorian Age/Werewolf/Changeling cross over a while back, and it will be nice to have this actually in writing now.
Quote from: Benoist;472031The Apocalypse > The Forsaken
The Ascension > The Awakening
Well, completing my list of tastes just for kicks:
The Apocalypse > The Forsaken
The Ascension > The Awakening
(Ascension's world with Awakening's rules might be the superior alloy here, but I went in a different direction with Awakening when building my NWoD Paris, creating my own background out of its base + Nephilim + Ars Magica, basically)
The Masquerade = The Requiem
(but different, with one being delivered with a very much preordained universe, while the other is still very much open to interpretations. It's also great to steal from one game to use in the other)
The Dreaming < The Lost
The Oblivion = Orpheus = Geist, in different ways of course. I might prefer Orpheus out of the three, actually.
No real opinion on the Hunters games, since I didn't play/use the OWoD one. I like the NWoD version.
The Mummy game... we'll see.
And of course, last but not least, Promethean. Totally awesome game.
Quote from: Lawbag;472057I ran a Victorian Age/Werewolf/Changeling cross over a while back, and it will be nice to have this actually in writing now.
Sounds like a fun mix for sure. :)
Quote from: Ian Warner;472008Strange: I didn't think Fuzzy Eco Terrorist was as popular as Fuzzy Spirit Cop?
Subjective: I don't know anyone who is even lukewarm to Fuzzy Spirit Street Cop. I know several people who are nostalgic (though in most cases
guiltily nostalgic) for Fuzzy Eco Terrorist.
Objective: CCP is pushing oWoD products pretty hard, but V:tR is being kept on as a Vampire
romance line (this announcement broke my brain and I had to reboot, but I can now see the logic). As far as I know, there aren't any W:tF materials on the forecast at all, it's just being dropped and no one seems to care.
Interpretive: CCP released sales figures for the 7 year period combining Time of Judgement and nWoD and from the time before that. The total book sales from that period were approximately 1.5 million books. The book sales from before that were over 5.5 million books. So the default assumption is that any particular oWoD line was much more popular than any particular nWoD line unless there is direct evidence to the contrary.
I have every reason to believe that W:tA is much more popular than W:tF.
-Frank
Well anyway I've lost patience with both and will now be playing a game that is actually about Werewolves instead.
Fact #1: Werewolves are mammals.
Fact #2: Werewolves fight ALL the time.
Fact #3: The purpose of werewolves is to flip out and kill people.
Quote from: Ian Warner;472122Well anyway I've lost patience with both and will now be playing a game that is actually about Werewolves instead.
Dude, if your Werewolf game is
just about eco-warriors or
just about spirit cops, I'm guessing
maybe you're doing something wrong. I wouldn't blame the game for that.
Quote from: FrankTrollman;472121CCP is pushing oWoD products pretty hard, but V:tR is being kept on as a Vampire romance line (this announcement broke my brain and I had to reboot, but I can now see the logic).
Eh, that's just plain wrong.
VtR is getting one supplement on alternative settings for the (currently very popular) paranormal romance genre. That no more makes it a "romance line" than the release of
Infinite Macabre turned
WoD into a space opera game.
Quote from: FrankTrollman;472121Objective: CCP is pushing oWoD products pretty hard, but V:tR is being kept on as a Vampire romance line (this announcement broke my brain and I had to reboot, but I can now see the logic).
No, there's going to be one book for Vampire Erotica, which looks like the first of a series of "How to use Requiem to do this type of vampire story..." books.
Personally, I think that a Paranormal Romance game line would be a fantastic "getting players in" product, but it would have to be a stand-alone corebook to really attract new players, just like the oWoD did. Three game books is a significant buy-in for someone not already into "the hobby" (Yes, D&D, I know, but that's targeting a different market segment.)
The best part of that, though, is that you can cut down on a lot of the more fiddly rules; essentially, you could cut it down to a "WoD lite" rule system, with simplified versions of whatever beasties you want to use, and still have lots of room to explore the genre concepts and how to apply them in-game.
Quote from: Ladybird;472301Personally, I think that a Paranormal Romance game line would be a fantastic "getting players in" product, but it would have to be a stand-alone corebook to really attract new players, just like the oWoD did. Three game books is a significant buy-in for someone not already into "the hobby" (Yes, D&D, I know, but that's targeting a different market segment.)
I would actually agree for D&D
as well. The PH, DMG and MM were supposed to be
Advanced. It's a shame that it became the basic paradigm of the game opposed to the "kiddies" version. It should have remained a basic,
self-contained, complete cheap, loose game, with the elaborate, detail-heavy, encyclopedic Advanced in complement to it, IMO.
Quote from: Ladybird;472301Personally, I think that a Paranormal Romance game line would be a fantastic "getting players in" product, but it would have to be a stand-alone corebook to really attract new players, just like the oWoD did. Three game books is a significant buy-in for someone not already into "the hobby" (Yes, D&D, I know, but that's targeting a different market segment.)
Frankly, I'd expect this
Strange, Dead Love to be another mini-release along the lines of
Bleeding Edge and
Infinite Macabre, with no greater page count than the other "shard" supplements, or perhaps equivalent to one chapter from
Mirrors. But who knows?
Sooo, will cross-over between the different oWoD gamelines actually be possible with the 20th Ann. editions for a change?
Quote from: Ian Warner;472122Well anyway I've lost patience with both and will now be playing a game that is actually about Werewolves instead.
Ooh, which game will that be?
I'll find something before I write Doxy by Moonlight I'm sure ;)
Quote from: HombreLoboDomesticado;472392Sooo, will cross-over between the different oWoD gamelines actually be possible with the 20th Ann. editions for a change?
The crossover issues will presumably remain the same as they were during the Revised oWoD era. These anniversary editions just collect together and polish up the existing old mechanics, instead of standardizing "power stats" and such between the lines as the nWoD did.
Quote from: GrimGent;472371Frankly, I'd expect this Strange, Dead Love to be another mini-release along the lines of Bleeding Edge and Infinite Macabre, with no greater page count than the other "shard" supplements, or perhaps equivalent to one chapter from Mirrors.
Well,
SDL is apparently out now, and 64 pages long according to the Drivethru page, so that guess pretty much proved right. It's hardly a major change in direction for the
VtR line, in other words.
Quote from: GeekEclectic;472023The "missing" oMage Convention books
As someone who has every
oMage book published I guess I should know this but what "missing" conventions books?
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David R;498851As someone who has every oMage book published I guess I should know this but what "missing" conventions books?
That'd be the originally planned series with the in-depth Technocracy material updated for the Revised edition. Only
Convention Book: Iteration X was ever actually published.
Good to hear about WtA20. It'll probably be too fucking expensive for overseas ordering, though, just like VtM20.
Quote from: Benoist;472108The Apocalypse > The Forsaken
The Ascension > The Awakening
I am very fond of all four, but the nWoD versions feel more
playable for me. People would get caught up with the metaplot and the splat stereotypes and arrive at the gaming table with a bunch of expectations and it made the ST's job harder IMHO (I still had a blast, though). I also really, really like how both Forsaken and Awakening feel a lot more subdued than their oWoD counterparts (Awakening in particular reskins some of the fundamental conflicts of Ascension, and frames them in a much more subtle manner, which I find very elegant).
Quote from: Benoist;472108The Masquerade = The Requiem
(but different, with one being delivered with a very much preordained universe, while the other is still very much open to interpretations. It's also great to steal from one game to use in the other)
Masquerade < Requiem for me, for the reasons above (and believe me, I
love Masquerade, it's D&D and CoC come close in the "hours of fun logged" category).
Quote from: Benoist;472108The Dreaming < The Lost
No contest there. Lost is an awesome game, Dreaming is almost embarassing.
Quote from: Benoist;472108The Oblivion = Orpheus = Geist, in different ways of course. I might prefer Orpheus out of the three, actually.
Never played any of them (mostly used Oblivion as a supplement for my Giovanni characters and their ghostly slaves, actually). Oblivion felt like this crazy grimdark fantasy game, which looked kind of cool, but a hard sell for most groups. Orpheus feels like proper supernatural horror, and Geist I can't opine on.
Quote from: Benoist;472108No real opinion on the Hunters games, since I didn't play/use the OWoD one. I like the NWoD version.
If Dreaming was almost embarassing, Reckoning was a real, honest-to-God fucking embarassment. Fuckl the "Endowed" and their flaming baseball bats and ZombieVision. We played straight-mortals-as-vampire-hunter oWoD games (by way of Hunters Hunted, and later Year of the Hunter books) all the time and never, ever touched Reckoning.
Hunter: The Vigil is my favorite nWoD game. Use conspiracies for a Year of the Hunter feel, or (my favorite) compacts for a Hunters Hunted gritty oWoD 1e feel. Then add the excellent Vigil supplements, or the other supernaturals, or the great core nWoD books for antagonists. Can't go wrong with it. (Also Vigil sourcebooks supplement other lines nicely. Can't wait to use the Knights of St. George, from Witch Hunters, as an Abyssal cult in an Awakening game.)
Quote from: Benoist;472108The Mummy game... we'll see.
No incarnation of mummies, from the 1e supplement to the announced new games, has ever grabbed my interest. If I was having mummies in my game, I'd file them under "unexplainable weird shit" along with the vampire-hunting owl spirits, Idigam and shit.
Quote from: Benoist;472108And of course, last but not least, Promethean. Totally awesome game.
I still mean to check this out, on your advice...
My opinions on the Forsaken and Awakening games are hugely evolving as I run the Paris Alchymique. I don't think they're really inferior. It's just that they are too close to their originals and thus invite such comparisons, which then screws with your expectations in regards to the new games, whereas they really ought to be considered completely different games indeed, to be used for their own sake on their own merit, rather than an "improvement" or lack thereof compared to the oWoD equivalents.
Also, War Against the Pure is awesome supplement.
I like all of the nWoD games better than I liked the corresponding oWoD games, which is saying something because I definitely enjoyed playing all of the oWoD games. My favourite being Mummy. I never understood why only so very few people liked playing semi-immortal champions of balance and good.
Mummy was pretty badass.
I liked the new Werewolf better, though I think the conflict at the center of the old Werewolf was easier to get your head around and I enjoyed it a great deal.
I do want a C:tD20 compilation, though. Lost is very awesome, but I love my schizophrenic mess of a game Dreaming. But I want DiTerlizzi's art all kept, as delightfully incongruous as it was for WoD, as I heard V20 had to cut back on illustration space. I know wishful thinking but I'd really enjoy it, even if it ends up relegated to the Shelf of Dust as a pretty picture book.
I couldn't care even a little bit less than I do. Fortunately, no one else really cares either, not in any significant numbers at least. This isn't a revival of WW, its a funeral dirge.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;499706Fortunately, no one else really cares either, not in any significant numbers at least.
Your butthurt is showing again. This thread, and several others at RPGnet and other forums, suggest otherwise.
But hey, maybe if you repeat this often enough, it becomes true. Right?
Quote from: The Butcher;499751Your butthurt is showing again. This thread, and several others at RPGnet and other forums, suggest otherwise.
But hey, maybe if you repeat this often enough, it becomes true. Right?
I'm sorry, since when were internet threads an indication of sales? Last time I checked, WW's market share had dropped to below 1%.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;499920Last time I checked, WW's market share had dropped to below 1%.
Now this is indeed interesting, what is your source for such figures?
Quote from: RPGPundit;499920I'm sorry, since when were internet threads an indication of sales? Last time I checked, WW's market share had dropped to below 1%.
RPGPundit
You said there wasn't interest.
I pointed out that this thread, and similar threads in other forums, suggest otherwise.
You suddenly shift the goalposts to sales, and suggest that White Wolf's are "beneath 1%" (beneath 1% of what? Of the current RPG market? Of their Q2 1993 sales? Of the GDP of Belgium?), obviously without citing, let alone linking, a source for this spurious figure.
Nice try. If you don't have anything of substance to contribute to the thread, by all means, I suggest you take your threadcrapping elsewhere. It's a big forum, and you own all of it. Maybe you could start a thread of your own, I'm sure Ron Edwards or Vince Baker are up to something truly horrid that's threatening the entire RPG hobby right now.
Had you read my blog some time ago, which I know most of you do, you'd know where the figure came from. Recent sales figures which show a downward spiral for white wolf since the late nineties; where they went from 26% or better, to 22%, to 17% around the time just before nWoD, to 16% after that, and then plunged quickly down to oblivion. They haven't been on the ICV2 top 5 list for ages, and its generally agreed that everything other than D&D and Pathfinder, including the next 3 sellers in the top 5 list, are all under 4% market share.
Not to mention that Ryan Dancey described WW not very long ago as a company that was only making RPG products as a "legacy product".
Stick a fork in them, they're done.
RPGPundit
How well is DTRPG/RPGNow doing? I thought that it was owned by WW.
Quote from: RPGPundit;500104They haven't been on the ICV2 top 5 list for ages, and its generally agreed that everything other than D&D and Pathfinder, including the next 3 sellers in the top 5 list, are all under 4% market share.
Isn't ICv2's ranking based on interviews with specific companies and stores, completely ignoring digital sales through, say, Drivethru which is how WW has been releasing all of their material for some time now?
Quote from: GrimGent;500201Isn't ICv2's ranking based on interviews with specific companies and stores, completely ignoring digital sales through, say, Drivethru which is how WW has been releasing all of their material for some time now?
That only supports the argument for them being at most an company that does rpgs as a legacy product.
RPGPundit
They do TRPGs as legacy products. The WoD MMO project is where it's at right now... project which is OWoD in nature and ... oh. Look! A 30th anniversary edition of the game we always knew you loved! Here play it again! Now, you want more? Well, there is this AWESOME MMO we are working on right now...
Now that said, I'm sure V20 was/is super popular. I know gamers who haven't bought an RPG product for years (while still playing - there are in fact many gamers in that situation that I know of) who decided to break the piggy bank on it. There's interest alright. I think it's delusional to think otherwise.
Quote from: Benoist;500247They do TRPGs as legacy products. The WoD MMO project is where it's at right now... project which is OWoD in nature and ... oh. Look! A 30th anniversary edition of the game we always knew you loved! Here play it again! Now, you want more? Well, there is this AWESOME MMO we are working on right now...
I do not believe the future of WoD MMO is that bright:
http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=4769&tid=1 (http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=4769&tid=1)
The success of 20th anniversary edition was more an accident than careful marketing plan. The the huge demand for VtM20 left WW a bit baffled, after all they did not have initially any plans on how to distribute the book to persons not attending Grand Masquerade.
Quote from: Benoist;500247I think it's delusional to think otherwise.
I find it incredibly cute that you people still engage pundy and his mad ravings instead of pointing and making fun of him. It is as if you guys somehow believe in some fundamental good in poeple or something like that ^^
Quote from: RPGPundit;500104Had you read my blog some time ago,
Fat chance.
Quote from: RPGPundit;500104which I know most of you do, you'd know where the figure came from. Recent sales figures which show a downward spiral for white wolf since the late nineties; where they went from 26% or better, to 22%, to 17% around the time just before nWoD, to 16% after that, and then plunged quickly down to oblivion. They haven't been on the ICV2 top 5 list for ages, and its generally agreed that everything other than D&D and Pathfinder, including the next 3 sellers in the top 5 list, are all under 4% market share.
Again, what are those figures? 26% of
what?
And you don't even bother providing a link, natch.
I'll concur that WW is but a shadow of the industry giant it was in the 90s, they've all but said so on RPGnet and on their own forums. But this just makes me even more intrigued, mystified even, at the energy and time you devote to attacking them. That's rather a lot of butthurt, even for your very high standards. Did you walk on a Vampire LARP player doing your mom when you were 5, or something?
Personally I think WW is the only of the big company who read the changes that are coming correctly. Splat treadmills are going to die, not because the hobby is going to die, but because there are now incredibly attractive alternatives for just about any kind of playstyles whether you are trad or indy or like ponies. whatever, the hobby has got you covered.
WW realized that and shifted its model. Now they mostly release "cool shit that not a lot of people might need but some will really love" and sell that via pdf/pod.
And that is the way to go. The market share of ALL big RPGs has gone down significantly since the inception of RPGs and that is a trend that is most likely to continue.
I for one, welcome this. I'd rather have a hundred smaller game companies that do different and new stuff then another 30 years of D&D and its derivates.
Quote from: DominikSchwager;500541I find it incredibly cute that you people still engage pundy and his mad ravings instead of pointing and making fun of him. It is as if you guys somehow believe in some fundamental good in poeple or something like that ^^
As a matter of fact I do. To quote the Italian Job, I trust everyone. It's the devil inside them I don't trust.
Yeah, Pathfinder and DnD are doing so terrible that they will die soon >.>.
And guess who's the third one? FFG's Warhammer 40k, also an excellent splatbook medium :P.
Butcher - the problem is, that there really is not much really decisive data on RPG sales, beyond anecdotal evidence. Companies release sales informations very sporadically to never, and neutral audits are even rarer then that.
Quote from: Rincewind1;500617Butcher - the problem is, that there really is not much really decisive data on RPG sales, beyond anecdotal evidence. Companies release sales informations very sporadically to never, and neutral audits are even rarer then that.
My point exactly.
Pundejo can't understand for some reason. Or, I dunno, maybe he does, but he's just one big huge giant troll out to fling shit on everyone, completely incapable or unwilling to engage actual debate, and DominikSchwager is right.
Quote from: Benoist;500572As a matter of fact I do. To quote the Italian Job, I trust everyone. It's the devil inside them I don't trust.
In Pundy's case the devil has eaten the insides and is now firmly sitting between the eyes and yelling obsceneties.
Quote from: DominikSchwager;500636In Pundy's case the devil has eaten the insides and is now firmly sitting between the eyes and yelling obsceneties.
You say that like it's a BAD thing.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;500776You say that like it's a BAD thing.
JG
It really depends, if you want to prod him and make fun of him it is a good thing. If he comes into a good discussion it is a bad thing. Hence my original post here.
Quote from: David R;498851As someone who has every oMage book published I guess I should know this but what "missing" conventions books?
Any but Interation X. I'm looking forward to those. I always felt the single metal grey book among the black ones must feel awfully alone.
That you guys intentionally choose to ignore what's blatantly self-evident because it doesn't fit either your personal ideologies, or your need to argue with me, is not really a surprise to anyone.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;501150That you guys intentionally choose to ignore what's blatantly self-evident because it doesn't fit either your personal ideologies, or your need to argue with me, is not really a surprise to anyone.
There's no argüing with you, Pundit, because there's no common ground. Either you live in an entirely different, possibly delusional world, or you are the most dishonest conversationalist I have ever had the misfortune to encounter, sacrificing any semblance of sanity to your hate-peddling agenda.
You just don't get to stir the shit and complain about the smell. Man up, provide some facts, mount a coherent argument instaed of rambling and shifting goalposts, or admit defeat, suck up and shut up already.
Its really hilarious, hearing the guy who's trying to argue that White Wolf is still the major player in the industry with a market share akin to what it had in the 90s trying to accuse me of intellectual dishonesty or "living in delusion".
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;501208Its really hilarious, hearing the guy who's trying to argue that White Wolf is still the major player in the industry with a market share akin to what it had in the 90s trying to accuse me of intellectual dishonesty or "living in delusion".
RPGPundit
I'm the one who talked about being delusional, and I'm arguing none of those things, for the record. I'm just saying there is IMO interest in the 20th anniversary products, and that believing otherwise is delusional. That's it. I agree with the rest: that WW's tabletop products are legacy at best, that they no longer are a major player in the "industry", etc.
Quote from: RPGPundit;501208Its really hilarious, hearing the guy who's trying to argue that White Wolf is still the major player in the industry with a market share akin to what it had in the 90s trying to accuse me of intellectual dishonesty or "living in delusion".
Quote from: The Butcher;500550I'll concur that WW is but a shadow of the industry giant it was in the 90s, they've all but said so on RPGnet and on their own forums.
English, motherfucker.
(http://static.theurbn.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Jules-Winfield-e1290732462769.jpg)
Can you read it?
Quote from: Benoist;501211I'm the one who talked about being delusional, and I'm arguing none of those things, for the record. I'm just saying there is IMO interest in the 20th anniversary products, and that believing otherwise is delusional. That's it. I agree with the rest: that WW's tabletop products are legacy at best, that they no longer are a major player in the "industry", etc.
Same here, as demonstrated above.
Yet Pundejo is so rabid on his WW-hate (maybe he was spurned by a perky Goth in his pipe-smoking, Masonic-initiated, White Wolf-hating youth) he can't, or more likely won't, see it.
But gentlemen, in that case, we have no argument. If you agree with me on every key point, then you have to conclude as indeed I do that the only people who will be interested in this will be old WW swine who still give a fuck about said "legacy product".
RPGPundit
I don't think we agree, because I think the interest in OWoD is actually wide spread and extends to (1) gamers who still play RPGs, don't give a shit about the web, and probably haven't purchased games for a while in some cases, and (2) lapsed gamers who would play OWoD again if it came back.
It's WW's response to this interest that is timid at best, for a variety of reasons, like the fact they are owned by CCP, that the company just went through a painful restructuration and probably a lack of faith in the tabletop business too. Their products are legacy, their presence on the market right now is anecdotic, but there is an interest out there V20 has IMO proven that WW could tap into to a greater extent if it really wanted to, not just from the pretentious types, but also from the legions of gamers who, like myself, enjoy the hell out of WoD games while playing them traditionally.