Didn't get the reissue box set and not keen on downloading the pdfs that are scattered about the web. That pretty much leaves the clones. Which ones out there would give the closest experience to the 3 books that came in the original box set?
Thanks!
Delving Deeper (http://www.immersiveink.com/)
S&W White Box (http://www.swordsandwizardry.com/whitebox.htm)
And you will want Philotomy's Musing (http://www.grey-elf.com/philotomy.pdf) as some ambiguities in OD&D will require you to make some decision on how to play it. Philotomy has a lot of good commentary and useful ideas.
It's worth reading the original.
Quote from: estar;864251Delving Deeper (http://www.immersiveink.com/)
S&W White Box (http://www.swordsandwizardry.com/whitebox.htm)
Delving Deeper is as close as you'll get to the original thing, though even there they made some changes (added a thief class for one).
Quote from: estar;864251Delving Deeper (http://www.immersiveink.com/)
S&W White Box (http://www.swordsandwizardry.com/whitebox.htm)
And you will want Philotomy's Musing (http://www.grey-elf.com/philotomy.pdf) as some ambiguities in OD&D will require you to make some decision on how to play it. Philotomy has a lot of good commentary and useful ideas.
I didn't really find Philotomy's stuff pertinent to 1st Printing White Box. I found looking at the other printings for anything extra more than enough.
3rd Printing http://www.swordsandwizardry.com/WhiteBox3p.pdf (http://www.swordsandwizardry.com/WhiteBox3p.pdf)
Core http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/62346/Swords--Wizardry-Core-Rules (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/62346/Swords--Wizardry-Core-Rules)
Complete http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/86546/Swords-and-Wizardry-Complete-Rule-Book (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/86546/Swords-and-Wizardry-Complete-Rule-Book)
Quote from: RunningLaser;864246Didn't get the reissue box set and not keen on downloading the pdfs that are scattered about the web. That pretty much leaves the clones. Which ones out there would give the closest experience to the 3 books that came in the original box set?
Thanks!
This seems a little odd.
You are not ok with just downloading scanned PDFs of OD&D.
But are ok with downloading or buying what could amount to someone copying the game near whole cloth and just slapping a new name on it?
Aside from likely better organization. What is the point in not getting the original as scans?
Quote from: Omega;864354Aside from likely better organization.
As if this is somehow insignificant.
Quote from: Omega;864354This seems a little odd.
You are not ok with just downloading scanned PDFs of OD&D.
But are ok with downloading or buying what could amount to someone copying the game near whole cloth and just slapping a new name on it?
Aside from likely better organization. What is the point in not getting the original as scans?
When WoTC decides to sell it as a legal pdf, I'll get it. Until then....
Quote from: Omega;864354This seems a little odd.
You are not ok with just downloading scanned PDFs of OD&D.
But are ok with downloading or buying what could amount to someone copying the game near whole cloth and just slapping a new name on it?
Aside from likely better organization. What is the point in not getting the original as scans?
Legality is relevant here. Downloading scans of a copyrighted work is illegal, games published with identical mechanics under the OGL or independently, while respecting copyright, are legal.
You could argue that it's odd to refuse to sell someone liquor 24 hours before they reach legal drinking age, too.
Perhaps partly because OD&D is the old familiar to me, I don't place as much importance on fine details as the 'scholarly' enthusiasts in the OSR.
The main thing as I see it is grasping the larger form and how one should approach it. Perhaps worth getting if you can are Chainmail by Gygax and Perrin (TSR Hobbies), Best of the Dragon Vol. I (TSR), Ready Ref Sheets (Judges Guild) and Arneson's The First Fantasy Campaign (Judges Guild).
While you might pick up some rules from these, I wish to emphasize that copying someone else's formal rules is not what it's about. "The rules" are piddling trivia compared with the creative energies that go into a good campaign.
Swords & Wizardry is not so much a rigorous clone as a free adaptation to suit the author's preference, very intentionally a "house rules" set. (Rather oddly, some spell names got changed for the "White Box" edition, as I recall, but maybe that has been fixed.) Whether on balance it is actually closer to OD&D than the alternatives is I reckon highly debatable (and I don't see anyone winning that contest). That's not a point against it, certainly.
There are some things that changed right away with D&D Supplement I, including some real oddities that I don't recall anyone using. There are various subtle differences in 1st ed. AD&D vs the whole of OD&D, but I'd say that "going retro" is mainly a matter of dropping stuff that's included (more or less depending on how far back you want to turn).
While there was certainly revision, the first four books of AD&D were primarily a compilation of most of the material from the original boxed set, supplement volumes and magazine articles.
OSRIC is as faithful a clone of 1E AD&D as you're likely to find.
However, I would urge the acquisition above all of Gygax's actual Dungeon Masters Guide. The most important parts, the advice in his own voice, are text that perhaps theoretically could be represented in new composition without violating copyright, but it may be doubted whether anyone is presently equipped to do so.
The 1981 edition of D&D ('BX') has less stuff added, but leaves some bits out; generally the tendency is to simplification. On balance, it 'feels' to me very close to OD&D with Greyhawk (mainly less the bigger spell lists and more powerful magic weapons and armor).
Labyrinth Lord is the earnest clone here, while Basic Fantasy is a freer interpretation.
The Holmes edition was pretty close to the original set so far as it went (which was not into the details of wilderness, naval or aerial expeditions, or higher levels).
At first glance, Mazes & Perils looks like a promising elaboration on Holmes. I'm not well enough acquainted either with it or with Delving Deeper to make a comparison, though.
Considering the ease in finding the actual OD&D pdfs online, everyone can see what the hoopla was about. What I found notable about reading OD&D word for word after decades of playing "my OD&D" (an amalgam of 0e, 1e, Red book, whatever) was how different OD&D RAW was compared to any OD&D I played back in the day with various DMs.
Personally, I find S&W: White Box to be the most playable of the OD&D clones, but even there I hit with a hammer to make it my OD&D (but that's kinda the point of S&W though).
However, I haven't tried Delving Deeper at the table yet. I am not sure there's enough there to get me excited enough to run it. Maybe I am missing something in DD.
Quote from: Spinachcat;864477However, I haven't tried Delving Deeper at the table yet. I am not sure there's enough there to get me excited enough to run it. Maybe I am missing something in DD.
Here's what Simon Bull, the main man behind DD, has to say about it:
Quote from: Simon BullGiven that scenario, DD is one of a number of 0e-style games "out there." So why choose DD?
Probably most importantly (and in contrast to the original) DD is current and available. It's easy to find and price is no barrier to entry--the reference rules and hypertext editions are free, and even the POD soft copy is dirt cheap. So there's really nothing stopping anyone from checking out what all the 0e "fuss" is about.
That aside DD is, to my knowledge, at least as representative of the original material as is any other 0e game. I would say "more so" but of course I'm biased ;) Even allowing for bias, it's my view that DD stands alone among the 0e-style games in terms of its faithfulness to the language and unique features of the original game. If you haven't played the original game, I'd say DD is a pretty good representation of it.
DD is also a "reasonably" mature product in micro publishing terms. There have now been four versions of the DD Reference Rules with each version being tighter and "better" than the last. Quality-wise (in terms of writing, editing, production, attention to detail) I reckon DD is as good as anything else out there--certainly in the "freeware" space.
So, if you're curious about Original D&D but don't have $200 for a collector's white box set, why wouldn't you check out DD for free?
Here's the link to the interview from which that was taken:
http://www.kickassistan.net/2014/10/delving-deeper-week-day-one-wtf-is.html
Quote from: RunningLaser;864246Didn't get the reissue box set and not keen on downloading the pdfs that are scattered about the web. That pretty much leaves the clones. Which ones out there would give the closest experience to the 3 books that came in the original box set?
None of them.
What makes OD&D worth looking at are the ambiguities of the text as the ur-RPG (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/2610/roleplaying-games/reactions-to-odd-the-ur-game). The process of figuring out those ambiguities and answering the questions they create is an essential aspect of the experience created by the original box set.
All of the clones, pretty much by necessity, take all of the interesting questions raised by the original books and answer them for you. They're books of crossword puzzles where all the answers have been filled in by somebody else.
It's also easy to buy 0D&D books, even now the original white 1974 bookset in good condition can be found for less than $100...
https://www.acaeum.com/forum/viewforum.php?cache=1&f=3
Quote from: Justin Alexander;864775All of the clones, pretty much by necessity, take all of the interesting questions raised by the original books and answer them for you. They're books of crossword puzzles where all the answers have been filled in by somebody else.
First printing White Box Swords and Wizardry has all the ambiguities and then some intact. ;)
Quote from: Phillip;864380The Holmes edition was pretty close to the original set so far as it went (which was not into the details of wilderness, naval or aerial expeditions, or higher levels).
At first glance, Mazes & Perils looks like a promising elaboration on Holmes. I'm not well enough acquainted either with it or with Delving Deeper to make a comparison, though.
The Holmes Manuscript (http://zenopusarchives.blogspot.hk/2013/11/at-long-last.html) was indeed close to OD&D but the published version was not - it was a weird hybrid of Holmes's interpretations of OD&D, half-formed rules that didn't necessarily make it into AD&D, and some cool innovations that must have come from Holmes himself (or the Caltech rules he also played with).
Mazes & Perils takes the conceit of Holmes being an introduction to AD&D (which was just TSR marketing hype in the original) and runs with it, so it's much more of a bridge between OD&D and AD&D than Holmes ever was.
There is another Holmes clone, though. ;)
Quote from: Spinachcat;864477Considering the ease in finding the actual OD&D pdfs online, everyone can see what the hoopla was about. What I found notable about reading OD&D word for word after decades of playing "my OD&D" (an amalgam of 0e, 1e, Red book, whatever) was how different OD&D RAW was compared to any OD&D I played back in the day with various DMs.
Definitely, and that's the thing I reinforce to friends who decide to join me in delving into earlier versions--you're not going to stumble upon some ur-version of the game that is going to recreate a golden age of gaming. The game, as played in 74, 75, or whenever is a collection of the rules as they appeared on the books, the way that players read those rules, the culture of each gaming group, and so many other things that are lightning that cannot be bottled.
Quote from: GameDaddy;864788It's also easy to buy 0D&D books, even now the original white 1974 bookset in good condition can be found for less than $100...
https://www.acaeum.com/forum/viewforum.php?cache=1&f=3
For a collector, its a decent price. For someone curious just to read the original game, its a tad expensive these days.
Quote from: Phillip;864377The main thing as I see it is grasping the larger form and how one should approach it. Perhaps worth getting if you can are Chainmail by Gygax and Perrin (TSR Hobbies), Best of the Dragon Vol. I (TSR), Ready Ref Sheets (Judges Guild) and Arneson's The First Fantasy Campaign (Judges Guild).
This list is spot-on. I keep copies of all of these on my desk for reference. Chainmail has the pre-OD&D history of the mechanics, BotD has those awesome early variant articles, the Ready Ref sheets are chock full of neat tables, and Arneson's FFC is a great example of pre-OD&D campaign play.
Quote from: Phillip;864377Swords & Wizardry is not so much a rigorous clone as a free adaptation to suit the author's preference, very intentionally a "house rules" set. (Rather oddly, some spell names got changed for the "White Box" edition, as I recall, but maybe that has been fixed.)
Honestly, a few things happened to cause some of this. (1) A "steering committee" had some say into what rules options went into the theing, and (2) as WB was one of the first ever clone games, I was really nervous about copyright and lawsuits and felt that some cosmetic changes would make WB different without really changing anything. (I thought that changing spell names wasn't a big deal but most folks wanted a more exact copy, so some of those things were tweaked in later printings.)
I've started a thread going through the original booklets and pointing out differences from the 1981 "BX" edition, according to my own sense of what's significant enough to go into in detail about. I also throw in some commentary along the way.
http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=33511 (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=33511)
Please pitch in if you've got the old texts and think I've neglected something.
Probably S&W White Box, but I am very partial to Iron Falcon (http://ironfalcon.basicfantasy.org/), which is 100% amazing.
What makes Iron Falcon amazing? I looked through the first few pages of the PDF and it didn't leap out at me why I should keep reading.
What am I missing?
All the clones are different games then the original. Yes, people could have house ruled there campaigns "back in the day" into one of the clones, sure.
If you do not mind going quasi-legal, look for the one volume of OD&D with the Franzetta cover. It is great.
Want clones that are actually clones? Check out FULL METAL PLATE MAIL. You can get it on LULU. It is pretty much the three little booklets written by a guy who understands English. TORCH & SWORD (beta) is basically a minimalist version of the three little booklets but it is missing stuff. Look it up on Google.