I've been talking about my conversion to Savage Worlds for a good while. When Savage Pathfinder dropped, the first thing I did was pull it apart (not enough I later realized) in order to re-tune it for Greybox Forgotten Realms (1e DnD), and further, I wanted to see if I could run a 5e AP (massively modified) out of the box, and go full sandbox, with no goal other than "it ends when it ends".

My players were always dubious about Savage Worlds doing DnD-style fantasy. Their general predictions were

- This campaign will not last longer than a month
- The PC's will never make it past Seasoned
- Class Edges look awesome! But wait... why Class Edges?
- Magic Users in Savage Worlds are going to be weak in comparison to DnD casters

But the odd thing was we all enjoyed Savage Worlds quite a bit, despite these very serious doubts from them. Personally, I didn't share any of these except the Class Edge one. My goal, personally, was to see if I could get the game to play at the same level as 20th-lvl PC's from DnD. Since I tend to slow-grind my games I knew the pacing would be a little faster than what I'd normally do, but since Savage Pathfinder can be run without XP (you just let PC's advance when appropriate), I knew I could control it.

The other issue was that I knew this was a big test. I didn't consider this a "real campaign" - which sounds bad, but I was as interested to see what I could get out of the system natively and push it to its limits without compromising on the setting. For my Realms, the Gods are real, Magic is rare but powerful. The North is savage and dangerous for real reasons. And so the "setup" was to let the players play what they wanted (within context) and I immediately hit my first speedbump...

The races of Golarion have the same names as the Realms races - but they're not the same by their stats and writeups because cultural distinctions were very much different and part of their respective writeup. So I had to stat-out all the Realms races (and I threw in some I wouldn't even allow for this iteration of the game, but wanted for future use).

I also ran into the issue of the Class Edges - Savage Pathfinder did a good job of translating Pathfinder into Savage Worlds, too good imo. The problem was that Pathfinder being a product of 3e design included assumptions of 3e style play which made some of the Class Edges too "on the nose". Specifically Clerics were nothing more than big fucking Healbots. So this led me to retool the Cleric Class Edge to get closer to what I wanted - which was a 2e Specialty Priest. I never liked the "Cleric" as a generic class - I want Clerics to be squarely in practice of advancing the interests of their respective deity, and their deity's spheres of control to be strictly limited to their "spheres of influence" which should be reflected in their Clerics. This meant I had to stat up all the Gods and their Clergy (I got most of them), that one change turned into a near 70-page document LOL).

There were some other tweaks I made, but those were the big ones. Most would be things I found I'd have to custom create for the purposes of my game as we went, between sessions.

So again, while this was all a big "playtest" for me - I decided to take a 5e AP and pull it apart and use that as the core event (which the PC's could choose to engage with or not). I chose the Storm Kings Thunder. But I knew it was too silly on its own to work in my style of game (Spoiler: It's about Giantkind rising up to reclaim their place as top-dog in the food chain after some weak-ass shenannigans). The premise of the AP would never work, I needed to give it more gravity...

The premise of Storm King's Thunder is

Spoiler

the King of the Storm Giants is missing and the "big accord" that the Giant Gods laid down giantkind to stop them from warring with themselves and dragonkind which almost ruined the world, was broken. So now all the giants can fight to reclaim their traditional territories.

. Well the fact is that territory is the entirety of the Sword Coast, and in the Realms it would be insanely difficult to pull off a war against the entirety of the North at once...

So I had to give them a reason for it to work. I decided that the issue was End Times from Warhammer was actually the real problem - and I slow cooked that bitch in the background of the game. I knew some of my players had played this Storm King AP with other groups, and I did *nothing* to dissuade them that I had made changes - big huge ones. But nothing in the AP was *required* for them to engage with - those were just the events going while I was cooking up the real nasty shit literally below their feat.

Effectively for me - a Clan of Duergar in Gracklstugh in the Underdark, trying to get one over on the other clans get approached by a Stone Giant shaman who worshipped dark gods of the Far Realm (Horned Rat baby) and the events of the Doom of Kavzar turned them into the first Skaven. The issue hidden from the PC's while their dabbled around with the Storm King's Thunder AP events is the fact the *reason* for those events were due to the entry of Chaos into the Realms...

ANYHOW...

This means I had to stat out Chaos Magic rules (and introducing Wild Magic rules), Skaven, Skaven weaponry etc. ALL of this was easy since Savage Worlds already has most of this gear statted from other settings. It only took a few tweaks to get them tuned for this game.

The campaign flowed very well. It was *a lot* darker than I intended in the end, but the drama was definitely there - with the PC's becoming very famous and powerful, establishing their own Barony (before it all got destroyed... it was the End Times after all). We has some huge highlight fights, tons of drama, domain level play. Intrigue. Stealth-ninja missions, stand up tactical battles, dungeon crawling, hexploration. Siege battles (the Savage Worlds Battle Rules are quite fun). The system could handle *anything* we could throw at it with very little issue.

The game wrapped up (too soon for me - but due to PC implosion that had nothing to do with the system itself). But a year later - the PC's made it solidly into Veteran rank (closing in on Heroic) - so this would be relatively around 11th-12th lvl, and I was ready to go all the way to Legend rank (20+), leveraging in the magic rules from Savage Rifts for Archmages and Uber-ub Clerics etc. It was very clear the assumption that the game could not withstand long-term play passed Seasoned Rank was completely unfounded. In fact I'd go so far to say it extended the "Sweet spot" of DnD well beyond the 10-lvl range with no end in sight.

Class Edges - I liked them. I now hate them. They're a weird vestigial limb that was ported over to soothe the assumption of DnD/Pathfinder players that "needed" classes to feel at home in this new system. All Classes Edges are in Savage Worlds are Edges + Hindrances packaged together and isolated for "schtick protection". Granted you can "multi-class" in this game, but it's not necessary. In fact while we were playing the setting-neutral rules (Savage Worlds Fantasy Companion) dropped, which effectively allows you play without any of the Class Edges of Savage Pathfinder (and it's TOTALLY worth buying to supplement your SWPF game - they stand on their own with little overlap). If you like Classes and feel the need to have them for psychological needs - keep them. if not? Chuck them. My next game will likely just go Fantasy Companion route and let people play whatever the fuck they want.

Savage Magic Users weaker than DnD - No. This was not the case. What was the case is that they're just "different". Vancian DnD magic is discrete effects with a bazillion variations. Savage Worlds magic are closer to powers whose effects are defined by trappings PC's establish. My view was that Savage Casters are on a different utility curve than traditional DnD wizards. But in terms of raw power - they are more powerful in actual effect. What Savage Worlds does is massively close the game between Casters and Non-Casters. A "Fighter" is *insanely* dangerous to "Mage" in combat. A caster is left unchallenged is extremely dangerous. The Glass Cannon effect of old-school DnD is very much in effect.

Combat is very different - DnD combats are slower, and encounters tend to be smaller in scale and numbers. Savage Worlds PC's are more capable of taking on *large* numbers of enemies, but combat is more dangerous as one good roll from any opponent can really fuck you up. So no fight is a complete write-off. That said - competent PC's can take on and end fights remarkably fast. And it *feels* good. Non-casters have tons of options in combat as do support-PC's.

Large scale siege combat turned out to be an unexpected pleasure that really added gravity to the game. We literally had sieges where a horde of 27k Orcs slamming into the PC's with their force of 19k warriors, taking into account any detail worth noting, led to super-tense gaming that came down to the final roll of the dice and PC's pulling it out - with only 2k defenders left and the orcs killed to a man in a massive route... some of the PC's making rolls that earned them legendary status for their actions *they* get to dictate. The beauty of the system is it will let you scale it up or down with near limitless flexibility. And everyone gets to partake. It's fairly fast (and unrealistic - if you're looking for total realism - go elsewhere) but it is very dramatic in the right hands.

My final thoughts - my next campaign will be very different. I will recodify the Arcane caster spell lists for one. In the attempt to give Mages the same utility as DnD Wizards, they didn't create enough distinction between their various specializations for my tastes. Easily fixed. I'm likely going to do away with Class Edges altogether and let Players build their PC using Fantasy Companion rules (where they could literally recreate the Class Edges if they wanted) and go piecemeal.

Overall the game ran faster, and smoother with easier to grasp mechanics than standard 5e. Players complained not about what they couldn't do - but they were always whining about all the cool options they would look forward to. There was literally *zero* griping about casters v. non-casters. I also plan on making my game grittier and more dangerous by throwing out the silly damage-cap (a holdover from Pathfinder - where they actually codify it to make it hard to kill PC's). The beauty of Savage Worlds is that it comes with tons of campaign setting rules you can fine-tune things with, so this is easily handled. After a year of running it - I'm "fantasy'ed" out, but I'm definitely coming back. Worth a look if you're wanting to do DnD Fantasy (or if you get the Fantasy Companion - and you SHOULD get it if you play Savage Worlds) and you want to convert your favorite homebrew or established setting.

I also intend next time to run it with XP.

Is it perfect? NOPE. But it plays extremely well and is so flexible you can truly make it your own. What it suffers from has nothing to do with the system, more than it suffers from needing the GM to set up the content he wants to use beforehand. With the recent drop of the Fantasy Companion this has become *extremely* easy.

If anyone has questions about the system/campaign - feel free to ask.

I'm interested in your post but I've been away a while.  I have missed some preamble.  I could barely follow what you did. 

You took Savage Pathfinder? 

Pulled it apart and made it play ?Ad&d? An earlier version of dnd.

Then dropped some elements of storm king's thunder from 5th ed. Which you must have massively rewrote because 1) the system was completely different. 2) the plot was dumb.

Which you dropped into a elaborate home brew setting or a massively reworked version of forgotten realms. And then added hundreds of pages of lore about gods and races (at least)

But once you did all that you were very happy with the results. ??

Combat was faster and more flexible able to scale up and down as needed. 

Magic was faster and more flexible. 

It was a good time.  PCs did not feel constrained by the system and were always excited about the next cool thing they could do.

The system allowed you to do any thing you needed.  Run any kind of encounter you cooked up.

Is that correct?

Please tell me more.

Tenbones, the amount of work you described to run that campaign sounds like a second job and my head was spinning. But it was good to hear about your Savage Pathfinder experience.

How would you describe / define the differences between Savage Pathfinder vs. Savage Worlds core + the Fantasy supplements?

Many years ago, we played a short Savage Conan game with just the original core SW book and most of your points fit my experience with that campaign.

Quote from: Headless on July 13, 2022, 12:24:15 AM
I'm interested in your post but I've been away a while.  I have missed some preamble.  I could barely follow what you did. 

You took Savage Pathfinder? 

Pulled it apart and made it play ?Ad&d? An earlier version of dnd.

Then dropped some elements of storm king's thunder from 5th ed. Which you must have massively rewrote because 1) the system was completely different. 2) the plot was dumb.

Which you dropped into a elaborate home brew setting or a massively reworked version of forgotten realms. And then added hundreds of pages of lore about gods and races (at least)

But once you did all that you were very happy with the results. ??

Combat was faster and more flexible able to scale up and down as needed. 

Magic was faster and more flexible. 

It was a good time.  PCs did not feel constrained by the system and were always excited about the next cool thing they could do.

The system allowed you to do any thing you needed.  Run any kind of encounter you cooked up.

Is that correct?

Please tell me more.

  In my experience as a person who has been running SW for a few years, I can take any D&D adventure and run it on the fly converting creatures to their SW equivalent with almost zero prep time (this is if I am somewhat familiar with the adventure) unless it is a spell caster, and then I usually take 2-4 minutes to convert spells to SW equivalents.   The adventure he is talking about is big, and it seems he also shifted the plot substantially, but I think the most work is creating a SW version of a monster that maybe does not exist already (and with Savage Pathfinder I would think about 90 percent of the work of any conversion is done already just by owning that book) in a SW iteration. 

  Point being, if you like an adventure (I run D&D 1e modules for our group..converted to SW) in a system many are very, very easy to convert to SW and if you familiar with it can be done on the fly.

Thanks for sharing this, tenbones. 

I did something similar prior to Savage Pathfinder coming out.  The first iteration I used Savage Rifts as a template and it was a disaster as you can probably imagine.  The second time I toned things back and ran Curse of Strahd.  My 'class edges' were basically a preset 3 advance package to get the players started.   It went much better that time around and was one of the better campaigns my group has had in a long time.  The playtest actually came out right at the end of that campaign and we were able to use some of the stuff--the players found the luck blade and were able to use it thanks to Wish appearing in Savage Pathfinder. 

I find that where Savage Worlds really shines is the ability to alter the Arcane Backgrounds to emulate different types of magic.  I went with standard powers for arcane magic and used 'no power points' for divine magic similar to Deadlands: Reloaded Blessed.  I would not do that for the Realms, but it worked very well for Ravenloft.   I am curious what setting rules you have put in place for your Savage Realms.  I chose to use Adventure Cards when I ran Curse of Strahd.  I thought it was going to be a disaster with the randomness they can add, but they really added to the experience of the players.  The thing that was also a 'eureka' moment for me, is mixing some of the subsystems together.  Putting a dramatic task in the middle of a combat encounter really cranks up the intensity.   

I couldn't agree more with your take on the Fantasy Companion.  I, too, liked the idea of class edges at first.  Now I want to get rid of them.  I'd rather give the players a few extra edges at character creation than lock them into a package.  I know a lot of folks are excited about the Advanced Player's Guide for Savage Pathfinder, but I think everything you really need is in the Companion. 

There are also a lot of third party stuff out there that adds to the tool kit, too.  I can't recommend the Scheme Pyramid enough.   Really streamlines a trek or exploratory type situation that you don't necessarily want to handwave, but don't want to spend too much time on either. 

Interesting stuff here. I'm probably not going to go out of my way to run Savage Worlds, since I only get limited play time and I'd be more interested in playtesting my own system I've been working on. But I would definitely try it out if I ever run into a group that plays it. From what I've read about SW, my own system appears to be an accidental mix of SW elements (kinda similar progression system and focus on Advantages/Disadvantages for all character abilities) with D&D/d20 mechanics and effect-based components. So I'd be useful to see how it plays out and see what sort of things I could still from it.

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 13, 2022, 11:27:08 AM
Interesting stuff here. I'm probably not going to go out of my way to run Savage Worlds, since I only get limited play time and I'd be more interested in playtesting my own system I've been working on. But I would definitely try it out if I ever run into a group that plays it. From what I've read about SW, my own system appears to be an accidental mix of SW elements (kinda similar progression system and focus on Advantages/Disadvantages for all character abilities) with D&D/d20 mechanics and effect-based components. So I'd be useful to see how it plays out and see what sort of things I could still from it.

I'm still trying to fully formulate my thoughts on *why* I like Savage Worlds. It goes against a lot of my gaming instincts. I started with d20 (Holmes) rode solidly with the brand until 3e, dropped for 4, jumped in for 5e and immediately got out and never looked back.

I've played other systems deeply - Storyteller, Interlock, d6, Palladium, Talislanta, Rolemaster, MSH, and others. They have all informed my sensibilities - but I was a d20 tribalist for decades. What changed? 3.x is where I felt crucified by the system. I've always marveled at skill-based systems in the freedom they allowed (d6 and Talislanta especially). But the problem with skill based systems were

1) They either didn't scale well. Yes you can do "realistic" stuff very well, but if you wanted to do super-heroic, or high-power/fantasy, they tended to become "something else" or simply not work well.

2) They required oodles of dice and extra mechanics to do what was previously basic and simple. d6 and the notorious dice pools (take it or leave it) were a big issue. At the deeper end of the pool they get unwieldy.

3) The subsystems didn't work well with one another because the task resolutions or the setting implications fought against the mechanics themselves. In many ways Talislanta suffers from this - not because the mechanics don't work, but because at the highest levels of play - you're running a caster-game. Which is why there is a Quantum Magic book, and not a Quantum Melee Combat book. (I honestly don't know of anyone that has ever played at this level - but not for lack of trying on my part.)

And DnD? Always has felt like you're channeled into these classes-as-mini-games post 3e. Even 5e feels this way. What I've always wanted is a game where like Conan, he's a freebooter, and if the game runs long enough he's a Fighter, Barbarian, Thief, Pirate, Corsair, (or more specifically: he's a pile of skills and abilities that covers ALL of these things without being pigeonholed into them.) My campaigns thematically are often like that. The game context will move as Kingdoms rise. Exploration will happen. New possibilities open up. And I want the system to be able to adapt to it by player choice (with my agreement) without having to resort to clumsy multi-classing mechanics (and the implied narratives of a "class" vs. what the class's abilities mechanically demand).

Somehow - within minutes of my first playing of Savage Worlds - I realized this system did all of this. Small numbers. Unified task resolution, Skill-based, Tropes-as-abilities, complete customization at the player level.

Are their flaws? Yes - the abstraction of using Tropes makes creating detailed distinction a little tricky...

A 9mm Glock has the same stats as a Colt .45 semi-automatic. as a baseline. Weapon purists might balk at that, there are "ways" to add those distinctions if you want. But you'll have to do it yourself, fortunately SW gives you good guidelines to make those customizations. All genres have their own considerations. But because of the unified mechanics it's *easy* to build your setting conceits tailored to your needs in Savage Worlds. And once it's done - it's gametime!

You couldn't run Palladium Rifts using DnD 5e without insane levels of customization. Consider the work and commitment you'd have to have to 5e to even attempt it. Most people would say "why even do it? Just play Palladium Rifts."

And therein is the mystery... why play Savage Worlds DnD? or Savage World Star Wars? or Savage Worlds Warhammer Fantasy/40k?

The answer is beautiful simplicity of narrative and mechanics working together. If you know a Mossberg 12-gauge shotgun does 3d6 damage, and you look at the stats of a Coalition CP-29 Hellfire Plasma Cannon 3d10+4 Megadamage and the rest of the system hangs on the same mechanics, you immediately know everything is already scaled for use out of the box. Whether you decide your PC has a power that could effectively do the same damage as a Hellfire Plasma Canon - or a Shotgun, the rest of the system is there to absorb those changes as long as you're ready to roll with it. Of course they have other systems like Powers/Spells/Gear etc that can radically replicate in a variety of forms whatever you can imagine - the CORE system remains unchanged.

And I'm with you - I'm not hyping Savage Worlds as the end-all be all. I'm hyping it because it strikes a profoundly strong and subtle chord with me about design. Where the tic-tac granularity of mechanics is the wrong direction. The ease of play in and scale and depth of systems should allow you to do *anything* without the mechanics getting in the way. They say Savage Worlds is a game about Tropes. When you think about it, that's the dragon we're all chasing - Yes, I want my gunfighter to Fan the Hammer like a movie-version of Doc Holliday and shoot the six bandits between their respective eyes.

Likewise if I want it gritty - and semi-realistic, I can tell you that I'm sitting over the campfire melting lead into molds and making my own bullets while let Bart heal-up. Shall I make a Repair check to see if my bullets are any good?

This is what I want from the system I'm using. And like you - I have plans to make my own homebrew system, and Savage Worlds looms large in that regard.

As for running DnD with it? It's fast, clean, high-octane. Highly recommend it. Ditch 5e. WotC doesn't deserve your money.

Quote from: Chainsaw Surgeon on July 13, 2022, 11:00:26 AM
Thanks for sharing this, tenbones. 

I did something similar prior to Savage Pathfinder coming out.  The first iteration I used Savage Rifts as a template and it was a disaster as you can probably imagine.  The second time I toned things back and ran Curse of Strahd.  My 'class edges' were basically a preset 3 advance package to get the players started.   It went much better that time around and was one of the better campaigns my group has had in a long time.  The playtest actually came out right at the end of that campaign and we were able to use some of the stuff--the players found the luck blade and were able to use it thanks to Wish appearing in Savage Pathfinder. 

I find that where Savage Worlds really shines is the ability to alter the Arcane Backgrounds to emulate different types of magic.  I went with standard powers for arcane magic and used 'no power points' for divine magic similar to Deadlands: Reloaded Blessed.  I would not do that for the Realms, but it worked very well for Ravenloft.   I am curious what setting rules you have put in place for your Savage Realms.  I chose to use Adventure Cards when I ran Curse of Strahd.  I thought it was going to be a disaster with the randomness they can add, but they really added to the experience of the players.  The thing that was also a 'eureka' moment for me, is mixing some of the subsystems together.  Putting a dramatic task in the middle of a combat encounter really cranks up the intensity.   

That's the beauty of it. There are literally a dozen ways to skin the cat on Magic. You can power it up/down/sideways - you can look at older Savage Worlds editions and go more low-powered. I tinkered with their No PowerPoints rules (didn't like them). You can even do Vancian. The point is you have options! and you can fine tune those options to fit your setting the way you want it.

Quote from: Chainsaw Surgeon on July 13, 2022, 11:00:26 AMI couldn't agree more with your take on the Fantasy Companion.  I, too, liked the idea of class edges at first.  Now I want to get rid of them.  I'd rather give the players a few extra edges at character creation than lock them into a package.  I know a lot of folks are excited about the Advanced Player's Guide for Savage Pathfinder, but I think everything you really need is in the Companion. 

There are also a lot of third party stuff out there that adds to the tool kit, too.  I can't recommend the Scheme Pyramid enough.   Really streamlines a trek or exploratory type situation that you don't necessarily want to handwave, but don't want to spend too much time on either.

Yeah the Fantasy Companion is GOLD. But I'm not throwing out the baby with the bathwater, there's still a lot of good stuff in the Pathfinder books, I'm just going to lean less on them. All the Class Edges are already effectively broken down in the Fantasy Companion anyhow... so my next Realms campaign will likely start with everyone being Novice + 1-2 Edges to replicate a solid start as "their class". After that - you get to eat what you kill.

Quote from: Headless on July 13, 2022, 12:24:15 AM
I'm interested in your post but I've been away a while.  I have missed some preamble.  I could barely follow what you did. 

You took Savage Pathfinder? 

Pulled it apart and made it play ?Ad&d? An earlier version of dnd.

The preamble: I've been running DnD (and other things) for over 40-years. I (and others) maintain DnD is it's own brand of fantasy. When Savage Worlds Pathfinder dropped, effectively you have a new version of DnD running on an entirely different chassis. So I took it for a spin. I have some experience in Savage Worlds (I came in during the last edition) - but my experience with DnD is deep, so making the translations from Pathfinder to 1e Forgotten Realms was easy mechanically, but it took some elbow-grease.

Quote from: Headless on July 13, 2022, 12:24:15 AMThen dropped some elements of storm king's thunder from 5th ed. Which you must have massively rewrote because 1) the system was completely different. 2) the plot was dumb.

Which you dropped into a elaborate home brew setting or a massively reworked version of forgotten realms. And then added hundreds of pages of lore about gods and races (at least)

I normally do big sandbox campaigns. This time I wanted to see if I could run a smaller affair, and see if I could run a 5e module (which I never use normally) on the fly and create a mini-sandbox out of it. My massive re-write was simply changing the premise of why the Giants went to war, and hid the real threat of the Skaven uprising as long as possible before releasing them (think Waterdeep as Ubersreik and you'll get the idea). The central plot once the mayhem with the giants was realized was not to find and make happy with the Storm Giants - it was to shut down the Skittergate that giants opened their duergar minions in the Underdark. So yeah - I had a LOT of elements that had nothing to do with the module (because it was silly and stupid). My take was way more fun... and scary.

Quote from: Headless on July 13, 2022, 12:24:15 AMBut once you did all that you were very happy with the results. ??

Combat was faster and more flexible able to scale up and down as needed. 

Magic was faster and more flexible. 

It was a good time.  PCs did not feel constrained by the system and were always excited about the next cool thing they could do.

The system allowed you to do any thing you needed.  Run any kind of encounter you cooked up.

Is that correct?

Please tell me more.

All correct! What more do you want to know?

I've ported the SWADE mass battles system over to use in Stars Without Number a couple of times, and it works really well as a narrative battle simulator with amazing player and PC input levers. Very cool description you give that really mirrors my own experience.

I've got Savage Worlds Deluxe and SWADE, and I've played in some games over the years... I've always flirted with the idea of doing more with Savage Worlds, but when it comes down to the moment of truth, I balk at the prep work I think might be required to make the setting work for me. Sigh. And that's frustrating to me, because every time I do play the game, it really feels like it would do exactly what I want if I were to run it.

So, here's my question: how much work is required for science fiction campaigns using SWADE? How about space combat? Mecha battles (more anime style than Battletech)? Low-level psionic powers? Am I looking at a 6 month lead-up for a new campaign?

Quote from: Heavy Josh on July 13, 2022, 08:38:29 PM
So, here's my question: how much work is required for science fiction campaigns using SWADE? How about space combat? Mecha battles (more anime style than Battletech)? Low-level psionic powers? Am I looking at a 6 month lead-up for a new campaign?

I'm working on a game now that is kinda Mad Max + cyberpunk. Pretty much everything you would need is Savage Worlds Rifts, maybe Interface Zero. That would provide all the templates you need to crib your own gear.

Rifts has hi-tech stuff galore. IFZ has you covered on more varieties of personal arms. Together with the core book it's almost trivial - you'll have everything from black-powder home-made, (if you want wild-west era weaponry, you can crib from Deadlands), to modern weaponry, to sci-fi staples, then the exotic fare you can use Rifts/IFZ.

Mechs are no different than Powered Armor or Golemechs from IFZ - just retool the stats to your liking for your setting.

Vehicular combat - this is really up to you. The core rules work fine. It's functionally only slightly different than normal combat. I'm working on an alternative method for my setting, which I don't want to elaborate on too much because I intend on publishing it, but functionally it will be "vehicles-as-characters" where your PC creates the derived stats for your vehicle-PC while being piloted. But the core rules work fine. Mechs have lots of armor, and lots of damage - they should play just fine as is once you have them statted.

In terms of mass combat - since the Mass Combat rules are largely narrative, nothing should change much here, once you assign your values to each side based on whatever levers and details your PC's and your NPC's grant.

But ALL of the ingredients to create your own stuff already exists somewhere between these three sources (and you can easily eyeball them yourself without them once you play the system a bit).

The *real* work is having a clear idea of what you want your Mechs and Sci-fi elements to DO. Once you slap Heavy Damage (Mega-Damage) qualities on your weapons, and use the Gritty Damage rules for non-Heavy Armored targets, you'll pretty much be covering the scope of carnage you could ever want or need in a Sci-fi game. Everything else is just damage-values vs. Toughness ratings and knowing where the breakpoints work for you. Looking at Savage Rifts and IFZ will give you a *SUPERB* start.

That said - the Sci-Fi Companion is going to be made by PEG. So you can always wait for that - it's a ways out tho.

Quote from: tenbones on July 14, 2022, 12:43:32 PM
I'm working on a game now that is kinda Mad Max + cyberpunk. Pretty much everything you would need is Savage Worlds Rifts, maybe Interface Zero. That would provide all the templates you need to crib your own gear.

Rifts has hi-tech stuff galore. IFZ has you covered on more varieties of personal arms. Together with the core book it's almost trivial - you'll have everything from black-powder home-made, (if you want wild-west era weaponry, you can crib from Deadlands), to modern weaponry, to sci-fi staples, then the exotic fare you can use Rifts/IFZ.

Mechs are no different than Powered Armor or Golemechs from IFZ - just retool the stats to your liking for your setting.

Ok, I like what I'm hearing.

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Vehicular combat - this is really up to you. The core rules work fine. It's functionally only slightly different than normal combat. I'm working on an alternative method for my setting, which I don't want to elaborate on too much because I intend on publishing it, but functionally it will be "vehicles-as-characters" where your PC creates the derived stats for your vehicle-PC while being piloted. But the core rules work fine. Mechs have lots of armor, and lots of damage - they should play just fine as is once you have them statted.

That's actually what I'd like to see. I have the Robotech SW book, and it sort of kind of alludes to the idea of Mechs-as-characters, but it never really expands on it.

I like the SWADE Chase rules mini-game for chases, but for some reason, the SW Deluxe rules seem better for dogfights. Is this a decent assessment?

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The *real* work is having a clear idea of what you want your Mechs and Sci-fi elements to DO. Once you slap Heavy Damage (Mega-Damage) qualities on your weapons, and use the Gritty Damage rules for non-Heavy Armored targets, you'll pretty much be covering the scope of carnage you could ever want or need in a Sci-fi game. Everything else is just damage-values vs. Toughness ratings and knowing where the breakpoints work for you. Looking at Savage Rifts and IFZ will give you a *SUPERB* start.

That said - the Sci-Fi Companion is going to be made by PEG. So you can always wait for that - it's a ways out tho.

Will take a look at these books and see what I can do...

Great report on your gaming. Sounds like amazing fun was had. Too bad it crashed on you.

Quote from: Greentongue on July 14, 2022, 02:01:15 PM
Great report on your gaming. Sounds like amazing fun was had. Too bad it crashed on you.

Campaigns crash. It's one of the biggest things GM's learning the craft have to accept. We rarely talk about it enough. But it's probably the single most important thing for a GM to learn: understand and analyze objectively why their campaigns crash.

The big takeaway should be that very often there is *nothing* you can/should do about it. This is a hot topic even at my table. Some of my players think I should "undo" the mistakes the players do that cause the crash, others blame me for elements put into the game that tempt players that do stupid things that cause the inevitable crash.

I stand on my principles that anything put into the game - regardless of the system/setting is something I'll own. What the players do with it - they own. If it causes an implosion - it's a rare that they didn't know it was coming.

But despite this - SW Pathfinder modified/not modified, handled some very very high-powered shit with very little system-resistance. So for anyone that wanted to play "High-Level DnD" but got the speed-wobbles from the system mechanics at that speed... Savage Worlds is a legit ticket into that racetrack. High-speed and low-drag for sure. But the crash is just as spectacular! hahah

Quote from: Heavy Josh on July 14, 2022, 12:59:06 PM

That's actually what I'd like to see. I have the Robotech SW book, and it sort of kind of alludes to the idea of Mechs-as-characters, but it never really expands on it.

I like the SWADE Chase rules mini-game for chases, but for some reason, the SW Deluxe rules seem better for dogfights. Is this a decent assessment?

Yeah Savage Rifts does a good job of Mecha-pilots, where their Powered Armor is simply that: Armor packages that functionally are the equivalent of Mechs of varying size. The beauty of Savage Worlds is the Task Resolution mechanics never actually change. The trick is calling the spade a spade, even if it doesn't look like a spade. Is a "Mech" a vehicle? (in which case you use a the Vehicle rules) or is it actually a suit of armor that *massively* enhances your PC?

A quick glance and the only things Vehicles do is offer cover, speed, passenger space, and a guns for others to fire (or the pilot). It's Toughness and Armor are cooked in. It's Wounds are still 3+ any modifiers. Not too different than a PC. Whereas Powered Armor stats enhance your own, they rely much more on your personal skill to use.

So understanding those slight distinctions are the only real difference. The real choice is whether you wanna dogfight it out, or use the Chase rules. and yeah - I'm fond of the Deluxe Chase rules a little bit more.