Some of you may already know that One Book Shelf (DTRPG) posted some new rules for content creators and publishers, etc. Here's the link: https://onebookshelfpublisherservice.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/227866447-Publisher-Conduct-Guidelines
Erik Tenkar and others are calling that last guideline "the Venger rule"... while I do like to provoke a reaction as an artist, I try to be professional with DTRPG's staff. Of course, years ago I was much more... passionate about how I expressed things. In the spirit of professionalism, I also try to remember that it's not OBS who are reporting and "blacklisting" my products but a small minority of very angry (and in my opinion) very disturbed customers who obviously love me so much that they want me all to themselves. Hey, there's enough Venger to go around!
Anyway, here's Tenkar's video: https://youtu.be/bjRUyvWPdN4
I'll probably make my own later today.
VS
Quote from: VengerSatanis on June 27, 2022, 04:26:48 PM
I'll probably make my own later today.
VS
You might only get one go at it before OBS decides you've gotten your one warning, especially if you're critical of OBS in your post. Do what you want, but be ready for the consequences.
Quote from: VengerSatanis on June 27, 2022, 04:26:48 PM
Some of you may already know that One Book Shelf (DTRPG) posted some new rules for content creators and publishers, etc. Here's the link: https://onebookshelfpublisherservice.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/227866447-Publisher-Conduct-Guidelines
Erik Tenkar and others are calling that last guideline "the Venger rule"... while I do like to provoke a reaction as an artist, I try to be professional with DTRPG's staff. Of course, years ago I was much more... passionate about how I expressed things. In the spirit of professionalism, I also try to remember that it's not OBS who are reporting and "blacklisting" my products but a small minority of very angry (and in my opinion) very disturbed customers who obviously love me so much that they want me all to themselves. Hey, there's enough Venger to go around!
Anyway, here's Tenkar's video: https://youtu.be/bjRUyvWPdN4
I'll probably make my own later today.
VS
Don't Cuck! Tell 'em exactly what you think of all this!
Quote from: VengerSatanis on June 27, 2022, 04:26:48 PMSome of you may already know that One Book Shelf (DTRPG) posted some new rules for content creators and publishers, etc. Here's the link: https://onebookshelfpublisherservice.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/227866447-Publisher-Conduct-Guidelines
That is insane. They will censor you and if you mention the fact that you've been censored they will censor you some more. Why would any writer put up with that?!?
Quote from: hedgehobbit on June 27, 2022, 07:08:40 PM
Quote from: VengerSatanis on June 27, 2022, 04:26:48 PMSome of you may already know that One Book Shelf (DTRPG) posted some new rules for content creators and publishers, etc. Here's the link: https://onebookshelfpublisherservice.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/227866447-Publisher-Conduct-Guidelines
That is insane. They will censor you and if you mention the fact that you've been censored they will censor you some more. Why would any writer put up with that?!?
Because they want to make money from selling their products in quantity. Did you expect any other answer?
For those of you with several products out there, what's the landscape like as far as selling RPG products without interference from evil & unhinged wokists? What percentage of business comes from DTRPG, OBS, or other service that has demonstrated hostility to creators based on political reasons?
There needs to be more PDF and Print On Demand publishers for RPGs. OBS can't be the only one. I know Lulu exists. And I have used them. But what else is out there that brings in the customers at any decent level?
Competition in the space makes for better customer service. For certain. But competition would also give creators more leverage as well.
Hostile Marketing. How very PC of OBS. OBS is slandering its vendors, their businesses, and the customers of those vendors.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on June 27, 2022, 07:08:40 PM
Quote from: VengerSatanis on June 27, 2022, 04:26:48 PMSome of you may already know that One Book Shelf (DTRPG) posted some new rules for content creators and publishers, etc. Here's the link: https://onebookshelfpublisherservice.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/227866447-Publisher-Conduct-Guidelines
That is insane. They will censor you and if you mention the fact that you've been censored they will censor you some more. Why would any writer put up with that?!?
OBS is a company. They do not censor, they decide someone is more trouble than they are worth (i.e. bring in money).
Also, some people seem to lack the reading comprehension or the OP was deliberately disingenious: OBS is not calling it the venger rule. An unaffiliated third party does. So, obs is neither disparaging the OP, nor their customers.
tl;dr: the op is a precious little snowflake who whined about nothing much happening to them at all
Knowing that you have to work with these guys (for the moment at least). I think you're better off doing adult/mature stuff as per usual, but not pushing the boundaries with overtly and obvious religious preaching (aka - anti-abortion pics, etc.).
I'm not saying you shouldn't do that (if you must) but sell it on your own platform and draw attention to it on other social media. Grim Jim did that with a few of his products that he knew could be problematic.
Venger, a name from the DnD cartoon.
Satanis, a reffernfe to what a lot of people consider an evil character .
I mean I like to piss off the right, using names they hate, like Roosevelt Clinton Obama. I expect them to hate me and howl about it. I've gone on Christian sites as ''Lucifer's missionary' to troll people.
But taking an offensive name and trolling can have consequences. Ask the one man freakshow/trainwrek/toxic waste site who named his son Adolf hitler heath and had all 9 (oh dear Lord!) of his kids taken away by the state after he showed up at a court hearing in a Nazi uniform.
I took a minute of my time to familiarize myself with it. Wow, the vibes I get from it are control, control, control. Don't like it! Glad I left dtrpg marketplace. Looking at the state of things now reminds me how awful this woke bs has been in the minds of people. The way these rules were written sound like there's a mild tone of rage to them, imho. Like, they really want to demand you don't release your product in multiple places, or cheaper in other markets? Bit outta of touch.
Once again... you enter a distribution agreement with OBS when you chose to use their service to promote your products instead of building your own channels on the Internet. These agreements come with terms that you not cause more reputational damage than the meagre income you bring in. Once that line is crossed any sane company will terminate that relationship.
If you are so inclined to create works that push against the grain, your alternative is to get a domain, setup your e-commerce site, and pay for the advertisement to generate traffic. No-one owes you access to their platforms on the Internet. Build it yourself or find a different company that will distribute that work.
Grim Jim brings up some good points...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY3PsSLKCl0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY3PsSLKCl0)
Quote from: Palleon on June 28, 2022, 08:37:03 AM
These agreements come with terms that you not cause more reputational damage than the meagre income you bring in. Once that line is crossed any sane company will terminate that relationship.
So this means divisive and politically oriented woke works should be out of their site?
Quote from: VengerSatanis on June 27, 2022, 04:26:48 PM
Some of you may already know that One Book Shelf (DTRPG) posted some new rules for content creators and publishers, etc. Here's the link: https://onebookshelfpublisherservice.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/227866447-Publisher-Conduct-Guidelines
Erik Tenkar and others are calling that last guideline "the Venger rule"... while I do like to provoke a reaction as an artist, I try to be professional with DTRPG's staff. Of course, years ago I was much more... passionate about how I expressed things. In the spirit of professionalism, I also try to remember that it's not OBS who are reporting and "blacklisting" my products but a small minority of very angry (and in my opinion) very disturbed customers who obviously love me so much that they want me all to themselves. Hey, there's enough Venger to go around!
Anyway, here's Tenkar's video: https://youtu.be/bjRUyvWPdN4
I'll probably make my own later today.
VS
This is what happens when you are allowed to become a monopoly after eating up your competition. I am fine with Capitalism, but when monopoly's happen its not good for the consumer.
Quote from: Efaun on June 28, 2022, 02:54:01 AM
OBS is a company. They do not censor, they decide someone is more trouble than they are worth (i.e. bring in money).
Also, some people seem to lack the reading comprehension or the OP was deliberately disingenious: OBS is not calling it the venger rule. An unaffiliated third party does. So, obs is neither disparaging the OP, nor their customers.
tl;dr: the op is a precious little snowflake who whined about nothing much happening to them at all
Its BS. What are people going to do if they don't like something that was published? Boycott? Where are they going to get .pdfs from since OBS is practically a monopoly.
If people don't like the product then don't buy/download it. But OBS should be serving everone, not just the woke complainers.
Quote from: FelixGamingX1 on June 28, 2022, 09:27:51 AM
Quote from: Palleon on June 28, 2022, 08:37:03 AM
These agreements come with terms that you not cause more reputational damage than the meagre income you bring in. Once that line is crossed any sane company will terminate that relationship.
So this means divisive and politically oriented woke works should be out of their site?
Yes, if they stand to lose money distributing it.
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 28, 2022, 09:28:38 AM
Quote from: VengerSatanis on June 27, 2022, 04:26:48 PM
Some of you may already know that One Book Shelf (DTRPG) posted some new rules for content creators and publishers, etc. Here's the link: https://onebookshelfpublisherservice.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/227866447-Publisher-Conduct-Guidelines
Erik Tenkar and others are calling that last guideline "the Venger rule"... while I do like to provoke a reaction as an artist, I try to be professional with DTRPG's staff. Of course, years ago I was much more... passionate about how I expressed things. In the spirit of professionalism, I also try to remember that it's not OBS who are reporting and "blacklisting" my products but a small minority of very angry (and in my opinion) very disturbed customers who obviously love me so much that they want me all to themselves. Hey, there's enough Venger to go around!
Anyway, here's Tenkar's video: https://youtu.be/bjRUyvWPdN4
I'll probably make my own later today.
VS
This is what happens when you are allowed to become a monopoly after eating up your competition. I am fine with Capitalism, but when monopoly's happen its not good for the consumer.
A fucking men brother!
Ah yes, the "build your own" mantra in response to censorship. Strange how guys like Elon make that melt down in a heart beat when they do just as suggested (and build or buy their own).
Except OBS does not have a monopoly. There are tons of publishers of all sizes who sell their own stuff over their own websites (in lieu of obs or in addition).
I recently bought things for city of mist, star trek adventures and several others directly from the "source" (in as so far you can say that with publishers) and it worked just fine.
Not getting into politics here, but the reality is OBS is a business, they keep what sells and does not require effort. VS' stuff is disappearing from there, because he is more trouble than he brings in. The "woke stuff" stays because it sells more than the complaints cost. And do not make the mistake to think this is being driven by loud minorities("complainers"). I guarantee that a business like OBS carefully analyzes these sorts of things.
Same with nike and Kaepernick. They got boycotted, crunched the numbers, released an add with him anyway and had record high stocks. I am not giving moral commentary here, but people generally overestimate how big the bubble is they are in. Business do not.
Quote from: Efaun on June 28, 2022, 10:20:16 AM
Except OBS does not have a monopoly. There are tons of publishers of all sizes who sell their own stuff over their own websites (in lieu of obs or in addition).
I recently bought things for city of mist, star trek adventures and several others directly from the "source" (in as so far you can say that with publishers) and it worked just fine.
Not getting into politics here, but the reality is OBS is a business, they keep what sells and does not require effort. VS' stuff is disappearing from there, because he is more trouble than he brings in. The "woke stuff" stays because it sells more than the complaints cost. And do not make the mistake to think this is being driven by loud minorities("complainers"). I guarantee that a business like OBS carefully analyzes these sorts of things.
Same with nike and Kaepernick. They got boycotted, crunched the numbers, released an add with him anyway and had record high stocks. I am not giving moral commentary here, but people generally overestimate how big the bubble is they are in. Business do not.
Well....Vanguard and Blackrock being the number 2 and 3 largest shareholders also factored heavily into Nike's decision making. They also have IMMENSE control over stock prices...which do not run with sales performance, and honestly a mega corporation these days can have those two things go in different directions and stay rolling so long as the sugar daddy keeps the money going even if sales fall. I am not so sure OBS as to OBS's ownership break down, I have no idea how much effect a few loud trolls can have on their decision making, but given the past 5-10 years and seeing fringe ideas and messaging amplified as if it were mainstream, I think assuming incredible business acumen being the reason for the shots they call and the only reason would be a mistake. I can accept we have no idea how much those things affect decisions in totality, but I think we should also accept the peanut gallery has more sway now than ever.
Quote from: oggsmash on June 28, 2022, 10:34:40 AM
Quote from: Efaun on June 28, 2022, 10:20:16 AM
Except OBS does not have a monopoly. There are tons of publishers of all sizes who sell their own stuff over their own websites (in lieu of obs or in addition).
I recently bought things for city of mist, star trek adventures and several others directly from the "source" (in as so far you can say that with publishers) and it worked just fine.
Not getting into politics here, but the reality is OBS is a business, they keep what sells and does not require effort. VS' stuff is disappearing from there, because he is more trouble than he brings in. The "woke stuff" stays because it sells more than the complaints cost. And do not make the mistake to think this is being driven by loud minorities("complainers"). I guarantee that a business like OBS carefully analyzes these sorts of things.
Same with nike and Kaepernick. They got boycotted, crunched the numbers, released an add with him anyway and had record high stocks. I am not giving moral commentary here, but people generally overestimate how big the bubble is they are in. Business do not.
Well....Vanguard and Blackrock being the number 2 and 3 largest shareholders also factored heavily into Nike's decision making. They also have IMMENSE control over stock prices...which do not run with sales performance, and honestly a mega corporation these days can have those two things go in different directions and stay rolling so long as the sugar daddy keeps the money going even if sales fall. I am not so sure OBS as to OBS's ownership break down, I have no idea how much effect a few loud trolls can have on their decision making, but given the past 5-10 years and seeing fringe ideas and messaging amplified as if it were mainstream, I think assuming incredible business acumen being the reason for the shots they call and the only reason would be a mistake. I can accept we have no idea how much those things affect decisions in totality, but I think we should also accept the peanut gallery has more sway now than ever.
Do you think vanguard and blackrock make money by investing in business that do well or in business that don't? Because your answer does not track at all.
I am not saying incredible business acument, if they had that, they obviously would not work in the rpg field at all. I am saying, they have a very good idea what sells and what does not and with that knowledge continue to grow. If they remove something, then it is because it hurts the bottom line, not because of some sort of agenda. Let's be real here, businesses have no agenda beyond making money. Sometimes that entails paying money for something that appeals to customers. But in the end, everything is done in service of the bottom line.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on June 27, 2022, 05:30:02 PM
Quote from: VengerSatanis on June 27, 2022, 04:26:48 PM
Some of you may already know that One Book Shelf (DTRPG) posted some new rules for content creators and publishers, etc. Here's the link: https://onebookshelfpublisherservice.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/227866447-Publisher-Conduct-Guidelines
Erik Tenkar and others are calling that last guideline "the Venger rule"... while I do like to provoke a reaction as an artist, I try to be professional with DTRPG's staff. Of course, years ago I was much more... passionate about how I expressed things. In the spirit of professionalism, I also try to remember that it's not OBS who are reporting and "blacklisting" my products but a small minority of very angry (and in my opinion) very disturbed customers who obviously love me so much that they want me all to themselves. Hey, there's enough Venger to go around!
Anyway, here's Tenkar's video: https://youtu.be/bjRUyvWPdN4
I'll probably make my own later today.
VS
Don't Cuck! Tell 'em exactly what you think of all this!
Thanks for the "advice", Stephen Shomo!
Monopolies are all over America, thanks to the right carefully killing laws meant to stop them.
Look at diamond distributors, they are a monopoly on comic distribution, and a court ruled they were but did nothing because they were not a monopoly on ALL printed media.
Think. I'm wrong? Suck it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_Comic_Distributors
My state has a monopoly on electricity that price gouges constantly.
Cable companies are monopolies protected hy the state.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0ilMx7k7mso
Quote from: oggsmash on June 28, 2022, 10:02:36 AM
Ah yes, the "build your own" mantra in response to censorship. Strange how guys like Elon make that melt down in a heart beat when they do just as suggested (and build or buy their own).
This isn't what we are implying when we say to build your own. The centralization of commerce into hubs like Amazon, OBS, etc... is anti-competitive. Publishers should be creating and owning their own distribution channels.
The only thing I personally buy on DriveThru are TSR-era reprints that I refuse to pay 4x the original price for a roached out used copy. Everything else, I go directly to the publishers store front.
Just mass report woke products. The woke will engage in hostile marketing. If OBS doesn't follow their own guidelines, then you can use that against them. You could sue them for religious persecution or something, idk.
If I ever publish any products on OBS, then I'm going to pad my products with "minority" NPCs and obnoxiously advertise my alphabet person of color status so that I can cry "bigot!" if they ever try to censor me.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 28, 2022, 12:31:47 PM
Just mass report woke products. The woke will engage in hostile marketing. If OBS doesn't follow their own guidelines, then you can use that against them. You could sue them for religious persecution or something, idk.
If I ever publish any products on OBS, then I'm going to pad my products with "minority" NPCs and obnoxiously advertise my alphabet person of color status so that I can cry "bigot!" if they ever try to censor me.
Acting in bad faith has ways of catching up with you. If they decide you're abusing the system, they can remove your access to it easily enough and they won't shed a tear.
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 28, 2022, 12:55:07 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 28, 2022, 12:31:47 PM
Just mass report woke products. The woke will engage in hostile marketing. If OBS doesn't follow their own guidelines, then you can use that against them. You could sue them for religious persecution or something, idk.
If I ever publish any products on OBS, then I'm going to pad my products with "minority" NPCs and obnoxiously advertise my alphabet person of color status so that I can cry "bigot!" if they ever try to censor me.
Acting in bad faith has ways of catching up with you. If they decide you're abusing the system, they can remove your access to it easily enough and they won't shed a tear.
Yeah, you're right. I find this extremely frustrating because it means I have to carefully go through my work and make sure I'm not writing anything that the woke could find offensive, lest my bank account get frozen.
Basically the only safe topics to write about is either misogynistic torture-porn where male fetuses eat their way out of their mothers (https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250794659/manhunt), the life of a Seattle Starbucks barista, or porn. I'm being hyperbolic, yeah, but dear god the woke fiction is horrific.
Quote from: Efaun on June 28, 2022, 10:42:03 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on June 28, 2022, 10:34:40 AM
Quote from: Efaun on June 28, 2022, 10:20:16 AM
Except OBS does not have a monopoly. There are tons of publishers of all sizes who sell their own stuff over their own websites (in lieu of obs or in addition).
I recently bought things for city of mist, star trek adventures and several others directly from the "source" (in as so far you can say that with publishers) and it worked just fine.
Not getting into politics here, but the reality is OBS is a business, they keep what sells and does not require effort. VS' stuff is disappearing from there, because he is more trouble than he brings in. The "woke stuff" stays because it sells more than the complaints cost. And do not make the mistake to think this is being driven by loud minorities("complainers"). I guarantee that a business like OBS carefully analyzes these sorts of things.
Same with nike and Kaepernick. They got boycotted, crunched the numbers, released an add with him anyway and had record high stocks. I am not giving moral commentary here, but people generally overestimate how big the bubble is they are in. Business do not.
Well....Vanguard and Blackrock being the number 2 and 3 largest shareholders also factored heavily into Nike's decision making. They also have IMMENSE control over stock prices...which do not run with sales performance, and honestly a mega corporation these days can have those two things go in different directions and stay rolling so long as the sugar daddy keeps the money going even if sales fall. I am not so sure OBS as to OBS's ownership break down, I have no idea how much effect a few loud trolls can have on their decision making, but given the past 5-10 years and seeing fringe ideas and messaging amplified as if it were mainstream, I think assuming incredible business acumen being the reason for the shots they call and the only reason would be a mistake. I can accept we have no idea how much those things affect decisions in totality, but I think we should also accept the peanut gallery has more sway now than ever.
Do you think vanguard and blackrock make money by investing in business that do well or in business that don't? Because your answer does not track at all.
I am not saying incredible business acument, if they had that, they obviously would not work in the rpg field at all. I am saying, they have a very good idea what sells and what does not and with that knowledge continue to grow. If they remove something, then it is because it hurts the bottom line, not because of some sort of agenda. Let's be real here, businesses have no agenda beyond making money. Sometimes that entails paying money for something that appeals to customers. But in the end, everything is done in service of the bottom line.
they make money on stock prices, of which they control huge shares in most of the big corporations in the country, and honestly own one another. They can manipulate the stock price of almost any company any time they want....they make money from shifting money around and borrowing ever more to own more companies. These are the source of ESG scores, which has jack shit to do with making money. It is the reason razor companies decide having commercials about men teaching their daughters to shave or decrying manly behavior is a good idea. My answer tracks EXACTLY with current year, and you are correct it most certainly would NOT track with a true reality of "business is business" decisions. When there are corporations with 10 trillion in assets out there, there is no free market business, it is whatever the lord and master decides.
I should be allowed to criticize a company for bad practices, which is what OBS is trying to ban with these new rules. No, they are not obligated to host Venger's content on their platform, but then, they are failing to provide me a service that I want, which I should be allowed to criticize.
Private companies are not allowed to do what they want BTW. They can't for example, fire or refuse service to people based on their religious beliefs. Why should political beliefs be any different?
Now, that being said, Venger does like to purposely create drama just for the sake of it, and OBS is a platform that is pretty clear about its dislike of drama.
Quote from: Hopladamus on June 28, 2022, 02:53:09 PM
I should be allowed to criticize a company for bad practices, which is what OBS is trying to ban with these new rules. No, they are not obligated to host Venger's content on their platform, but then, they are failing to provide me a service that I want, which I should be allowed to criticize.
Private companies are not allowed to do what they want BTW. They can't for example, fire or refuse service to people based on their religious beliefs. Why should political beliefs be any different?
Now, that being said, Venger does like to purposely create drama just for the sake of it, and OBS is a platform that is pretty clear about its dislike of drama.
This I agree with and posters saying Venger brought this to his own door with drama could be 100 percent right. I just think people pretending a whole lot of corporations are not engaging in activism, and in many cases run by political activists, are missing the forest for the trees. I have doubts OBS is doing this...but it seems to happen enough in lots of businesses to cast some doubts on many "business" decisions from lots of businesses.
I've been avoiding buying from OBS for a while because of their censorship. Which is a pity, because having my pdfs available to download in one place is convenient.
My advice to Venger would be to discuss this with them if you can. If a title is reported and censored and found to have no problems, then the same happens again, there's a clear pattern. Yes, the next reported title might be bad, but most likely they are enabling bullies to bring down products during their high-selling release weeks, hurting OBS and the publisher. So they should still investigate within two weeks, but for any publisher that has gone through this a few times without problems being found, they should leave the product up while investigating. I get companies playing it safe, but here they're just encouraging toxic behaviour that prevents their customers from getting the products they want.
Quote from: Hopladamus on June 28, 2022, 02:53:09 PM
I should be allowed to criticize a company for bad practices, which is what OBS is trying to ban with these new rules. No, they are not obligated to host Venger's content on their platform, but then, they are failing to provide me a service that I want, which I should be allowed to criticize.
Private companies are not allowed to do what they want BTW. They can't for example, fire or refuse service to people based on their religious beliefs. Why should political beliefs be any different?
Now, that being said, Venger does like to purposely create drama just for the sake of it, and OBS is a platform that is pretty clear about its dislike of drama.
Because your politics aren't constitutionally protected,but your religion is, hth.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on June 28, 2022, 03:20:11 PM
Quote from: Hopladamus on June 28, 2022, 02:53:09 PM
I should be allowed to criticize a company for bad practices, which is what OBS is trying to ban with these new rules. No, they are not obligated to host Venger's content on their platform, but then, they are failing to provide me a service that I want, which I should be allowed to criticize.
Private companies are not allowed to do what they want BTW. They can't for example, fire or refuse service to people based on their religious beliefs. Why should political beliefs be any different?
Now, that being said, Venger does like to purposely create drama just for the sake of it, and OBS is a platform that is pretty clear about its dislike of drama.
Because your politics aren't constitutionally protected,but your religion is, hth.
And that's an oversight that should be fixed by the government. Either they remove all protected classes or add personal politics as one of them.
Quote from: Hopladamus on June 28, 2022, 02:53:09 PM
I should be allowed to criticize a company for bad practices, which is what OBS is trying to ban with these new rules. No, they are not obligated to host Venger's content on their platform, but then, they are failing to provide me a service that I want, which I should be allowed to criticize.
Private companies are not allowed to do what they want BTW. They can't for example, fire or refuse service to people based on their religious beliefs. Why should political beliefs be any different?
Now, that being said, Venger does like to purposely create drama just for the sake of it, and OBS is a platform that is pretty clear about its dislike of drama.
You can criticize them, and then they can then "reserve the right to refuse service" to you.
Quote from: Hopladamus on June 28, 2022, 04:01:40 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on June 28, 2022, 03:20:11 PM
Quote from: Hopladamus on June 28, 2022, 02:53:09 PM
I should be allowed to criticize a company for bad practices, which is what OBS is trying to ban with these new rules. No, they are not obligated to host Venger's content on their platform, but then, they are failing to provide me a service that I want, which I should be allowed to criticize.
Private companies are not allowed to do what they want BTW. They can't for example, fire or refuse service to people based on their religious beliefs. Why should political beliefs be any different?
Now, that being said, Venger does like to purposely create drama just for the sake of it, and OBS is a platform that is pretty clear about its dislike of drama.
Because your politics aren't constitutionally protected,but your religion is, hth.
And that's an oversight that should be fixed by the government. Either they remove all protected classes or add personal politics as one of them.
Well....the constitution offers the exact same protections to religion as it does to freedom of speech....so it is always strange that speech (politics) has no protection in those matters, but religion does... though BOTH are mentioned in the constitution exclusively with regard to the government making laws and rules...not how businesses are allowed to act. Strange people conjure the constitution as a protection to religion in those matters with business...but not freedom of speech. Despite them being equal in the constitution.
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 28, 2022, 04:07:16 PM
Quote from: Hopladamus on June 28, 2022, 02:53:09 PM
I should be allowed to criticize a company for bad practices, which is what OBS is trying to ban with these new rules. No, they are not obligated to host Venger's content on their platform, but then, they are failing to provide me a service that I want, which I should be allowed to criticize.
Private companies are not allowed to do what they want BTW. They can't for example, fire or refuse service to people based on their religious beliefs. Why should political beliefs be any different?
Now, that being said, Venger does like to purposely create drama just for the sake of it, and OBS is a platform that is pretty clear about its dislike of drama.
You can criticize them, and then they can then "reserve the right to refuse service" to you.
Regardless, to retaliate and penalize someone for criticizing your business practices, which have significantly declined in quality, imo, is like inviting more bad publicity. A business their size with some many years behind them should have never published such set of rules. They way it's written sounds like someone drafted them out of ire for something recent and maybe not well thought over? And to be frank, I didn't like the tone of the email. My games helped pay staff salary, so when it comes to publishers I believe there's got to be level communication. This tone make it seem like somehow they regard themselves as superior beings over everyone else.
Quote from: Hopladamus on June 28, 2022, 04:01:40 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on June 28, 2022, 03:20:11 PM
Quote from: Hopladamus on June 28, 2022, 02:53:09 PM
I should be allowed to criticize a company for bad practices, which is what OBS is trying to ban with these new rules. No, they are not obligated to host Venger's content on their platform, but then, they are failing to provide me a service that I want, which I should be allowed to criticize.
Private companies are not allowed to do what they want BTW. They can't for example, fire or refuse service to people based on their religious beliefs. Why should political beliefs be any different?
Now, that being said, Venger does like to purposely create drama just for the sake of it, and OBS is a platform that is pretty clear about its dislike of drama.
Because your politics aren't constitutionally protected,but your religion is, hth.
And that's an oversight that should be fixed by the government. Either they remove all protected classes or add personal politics as one of them.
This is a bad post, and you should feel bad.
I'll say it once more, WE need to create a competitor to DTTRPG/OBS ASAP.
This just got posted. Apologies if it's already been posted in this thread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PufXMjSA-Kw
Quote from: FelixGamingX1 on June 28, 2022, 05:18:11 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 28, 2022, 04:07:16 PM
Quote from: Hopladamus on June 28, 2022, 02:53:09 PM
I should be allowed to criticize a company for bad practices, which is what OBS is trying to ban with these new rules. No, they are not obligated to host Venger's content on their platform, but then, they are failing to provide me a service that I want, which I should be allowed to criticize.
Private companies are not allowed to do what they want BTW. They can't for example, fire or refuse service to people based on their religious beliefs. Why should political beliefs be any different?
Now, that being said, Venger does like to purposely create drama just for the sake of it, and OBS is a platform that is pretty clear about its dislike of drama.
You can criticize them, and then they can then "reserve the right to refuse service" to you.
Regardless, to retaliate and penalize someone for criticizing your business practices, which have significantly declined in quality, imo, is like inviting more bad publicity. A business their size with some many years behind them should have never published such set of rules. They way it's written sounds like someone drafted them out of ire for something recent and maybe not well thought over? And to be frank, I didn't like the tone of the email. My games helped pay staff salary, so when it comes to publishers I believe there's got to be level communication. This tone make it seem like somehow they regard themselves as superior beings over everyone else.
I don't disagree that it's an ugly piece of practice and their notice isn't worded all that nicely. However, that's their choice, and they don't have to be nice. The only real question is how this will impact their $$$, and it seems they believe it won't hurt them to do this.
Quote from: Heavy Josh on June 28, 2022, 05:54:58 PM
This just got posted. Apologies if it's already been posted in this thread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PufXMjSA-Kw
Great video but I have to ask, did he have to do the video shirtless? Kind of hard to take him seriously.
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 28, 2022, 05:55:27 PM
Quote from: FelixGamingX1 on June 28, 2022, 05:18:11 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 28, 2022, 04:07:16 PM
Quote from: Hopladamus on June 28, 2022, 02:53:09 PM
I should be allowed to criticize a company for bad practices, which is what OBS is trying to ban with these new rules. No, they are not obligated to host Venger's content on their platform, but then, they are failing to provide me a service that I want, which I should be allowed to criticize.
Private companies are not allowed to do what they want BTW. They can't for example, fire or refuse service to people based on their religious beliefs. Why should political beliefs be any different?
Now, that being said, Venger does like to purposely create drama just for the sake of it, and OBS is a platform that is pretty clear about its dislike of drama.
You can criticize them, and then they can then "reserve the right to refuse service" to you.
Regardless, to retaliate and penalize someone for criticizing your business practices, which have significantly declined in quality, imo, is like inviting more bad publicity. A business their size with some many years behind them should have never published such set of rules. They way it's written sounds like someone drafted them out of ire for something recent and maybe not well thought over? And to be frank, I didn't like the tone of the email. My games helped pay staff salary, so when it comes to publishers I believe there's got to be level communication. This tone make it seem like somehow they regard themselves as superior beings over everyone else.
I don't disagree that it's an ugly piece of practice and their notice isn't worded all that nicely. However, that's their choice, and they don't have to be nice. The only real question is how this will impact their $$$, and it seems they believe it won't hurt them to do this.
Well, if they are adopting such hostility towards publishers, odds are something is going awry in the background. The hobby has slowed down quite a LOT.
Just watched the James Raggi vid. I've got to say, he knocked it out of the fucking park.
Drivthru are very disingenuous with their very deliberate and 'non-specific' rules that do not favor the indie creator. Fuck em!
Take my stuff down, you fat corporate bastards.
They also banned bigotry, child abuse, and "criminal perversion." Do they realize how far reaching that is or are they going to selectively enforce these rules? This content ban applies to huge swathes of Storyteller Vault, for example.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 28, 2022, 07:09:21 PM
Just watched the James Raggi vid. I've got to say, he knocked it out of the fucking park.
Drivthru are very disingenuous with their very deliberate and 'non-specific' rules that do not favor the indie creator. Fuck em!
Take my stuff down, you fat corporate bastards.
By the looks of it, DTRPG just went into full self destruct mode. When I pulled out of their store I already had the gut feeling the site was going to collapse. While my reasons for leaving were mostly due to high percentage cut, wokeness has done what it does best. I'll be honest, don't think they'll be able to recover from this. Raggi's video shares so many similar opinions it's not even funny. Respect.
Quote from: FelixGamingX1 on June 28, 2022, 07:26:40 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 28, 2022, 07:09:21 PM
Just watched the James Raggi vid. I've got to say, he knocked it out of the fucking park.
Drivthru are very disingenuous with their very deliberate and 'non-specific' rules that do not favor the indie creator. Fuck em!
Take my stuff down, you fat corporate bastards.
By the looks of it, DTRPG just went into full self destruct mode. When I pulled out of their store I already had the gut feeling the site was going to collapse. While my reasons for leaving were mostly due to high percentage cut, wokeness has done what it does best. I'll be honest, don't think they'll be able to recover from this. Raggi's video shares so many similar opinions it's not even funny. Respect.
Yeah, total respect and fingers crossed that some good comes out of this. It's great having someone like Raggi putting his money where his mouth is.
It should be so painfully obvious now just how much we need another competitor(s).
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 28, 2022, 07:30:15 PM
Quote from: FelixGamingX1 on June 28, 2022, 07:26:40 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 28, 2022, 07:09:21 PM
Just watched the James Raggi vid. I've got to say, he knocked it out of the fucking park.
Drivthru are very disingenuous with their very deliberate and 'non-specific' rules that do not favor the indie creator. Fuck em!
Take my stuff down, you fat corporate bastards.
By the looks of it, DTRPG just went into full self destruct mode. When I pulled out of their store I already had the gut feeling the site was going to collapse. While my reasons for leaving were mostly due to high percentage cut, wokeness has done what it does best. I'll be honest, don't think they'll be able to recover from this. Raggi's video shares so many similar opinions it's not even funny. Respect.
Yeah, total respect and fingers crossed that some good comes out of this. It's great having someone like Raggi putting his money where his mouth is.
It should be so painfully obvious now just how much we need another competitor(s).
If Raggi, You, FelixGamingX1 and others are serious about it you could pull together your resources, get a hosting service, buy a domain, install prestashop and buy the books template.
It's an instant ebook ecommerce bookstore.
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 28, 2022, 04:07:16 PM
Quote from: Hopladamus on June 28, 2022, 02:53:09 PM
I should be allowed to criticize a company for bad practices, which is what OBS is trying to ban with these new rules. No, they are not obligated to host Venger's content on their platform, but then, they are failing to provide me a service that I want, which I should be allowed to criticize.
Private companies are not allowed to do what they want BTW. They can't for example, fire or refuse service to people based on their religious beliefs. Why should political beliefs be any different?
Now, that being said, Venger does like to purposely create drama just for the sake of it, and OBS is a platform that is pretty clear about its dislike of drama.
You can criticize them, and then they can then "reserve the right to refuse service" to you.
Yes, but it's an extremely poor business practice for a big marketplace such as OBS. They can just ignore my criticism if they are not interested.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on June 28, 2022, 05:46:30 PM
Quote from: Hopladamus on June 28, 2022, 04:01:40 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on June 28, 2022, 03:20:11 PM
Quote from: Hopladamus on June 28, 2022, 02:53:09 PM
I should be allowed to criticize a company for bad practices, which is what OBS is trying to ban with these new rules. No, they are not obligated to host Venger's content on their platform, but then, they are failing to provide me a service that I want, which I should be allowed to criticize.
Private companies are not allowed to do what they want BTW. They can't for example, fire or refuse service to people based on their religious beliefs. Why should political beliefs be any different?
Now, that being said, Venger does like to purposely create drama just for the sake of it, and OBS is a platform that is pretty clear about its dislike of drama.
Because your politics aren't constitutionally protected,but your religion is, hth.
And that's an oversight that should be fixed by the government. Either they remove all protected classes or add personal politics as one of them.
This is a bad post, and you should feel bad.
And yet, I don't, because I see nothing wrong with it.
Quote from: Hopladamus on June 28, 2022, 09:54:21 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 28, 2022, 04:07:16 PM
Quote from: Hopladamus on June 28, 2022, 02:53:09 PM
I should be allowed to criticize a company for bad practices, which is what OBS is trying to ban with these new rules. No, they are not obligated to host Venger's content on their platform, but then, they are failing to provide me a service that I want, which I should be allowed to criticize.
Private companies are not allowed to do what they want BTW. They can't for example, fire or refuse service to people based on their religious beliefs. Why should political beliefs be any different?
Now, that being said, Venger does like to purposely create drama just for the sake of it, and OBS is a platform that is pretty clear about its dislike of drama.
You can criticize them, and then they can then "reserve the right to refuse service" to you.
Yes, but it's an extremely poor business practice for a big marketplace such as OBS. They can just ignore my criticism if they are not interested.
Or perhaps, as another poster pointed out, they really aren't that big so that when shit is flung at them, they feel it and want to hit back. If that's the case, you can put up your fight, but on their turf you're going to lose. They might lose you as a customer, but they seem comfortable with the consequences. You'll lose access to anythign there you might want to sell as well as anything you've bought. Is it worth it to you?
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 28, 2022, 05:58:24 PM
Quote from: Heavy Josh on June 28, 2022, 05:54:58 PM
This just got posted. Apologies if it's already been posted in this thread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PufXMjSA-Kw
Great video but I have to ask, did he have to do the video shirtless? Kind of hard to take him seriously.
I agree and was relieved that the camera never went lower than it did.
If they decide they can do this to producers, why not buyers? How long until something that you put on Facebook, Twitter, or here gets you locked out of your DTRPG account? Banned at TBP, auto-banned at OBS, too?
I emailed feedback. I will not purchase from them unless they immediately reverse course.
Quote from: Almost_Useless on June 28, 2022, 10:40:23 PM
If they decide they can do this to producers, why not buyers? How long until something that you put on Facebook, Twitter, or here gets you locked out of your DTRPG account? Banned at TBP, auto-banned at OBS, too?
Sure, they can do that too. It's back to that right to refuse service for any/no reason whatsoever.
Does Apple have the abilty to lock users out of their app store? I haven't used an apple product in < 10 years, and I can't recall the user agreement, so I'm seriously asking (assuming that
anyone actually reads their user agreements).
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 28, 2022, 07:22:15 PM
They also banned bigotry, child abuse, and "criminal perversion." Do they realize how far reaching that is or are they going to selectively enforce these rules? This content ban applies to huge swathes of Storyteller Vault, for example.
What happens if something is perfectly legal in Seattle, but not Ottowa? Who's naughty list wins?
Quote from: FingerRod on June 28, 2022, 10:44:27 PM
I emailed feedback. I will not purchase from them unless they immediately reverse course.
How optimistic! In the good old days that's all it took. The new generation doesn't reverse course. Staff would need to be fully replaced, the site needs a modernized interface, and then most importantly you need people to accept your apology. This is basically a big F you to all publishers, who no matter how small contributed to staff salaries and kept the site alive for all these years.
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 28, 2022, 10:20:33 PM
Quote from: Hopladamus on June 28, 2022, 09:54:21 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 28, 2022, 04:07:16 PM
Quote from: Hopladamus on June 28, 2022, 02:53:09 PM
I should be allowed to criticize a company for bad practices, which is what OBS is trying to ban with these new rules. No, they are not obligated to host Venger's content on their platform, but then, they are failing to provide me a service that I want, which I should be allowed to criticize.
Private companies are not allowed to do what they want BTW. They can't for example, fire or refuse service to people based on their religious beliefs. Why should political beliefs be any different?
Now, that being said, Venger does like to purposely create drama just for the sake of it, and OBS is a platform that is pretty clear about its dislike of drama.
You can criticize them, and then they can then "reserve the right to refuse service" to you.
Yes, but it's an extremely poor business practice for a big marketplace such as OBS. They can just ignore my criticism if they are not interested.
Or perhaps, as another poster pointed out, they really aren't that big so that when shit is flung at them, they feel it and want to hit back. If that's the case, you can put up your fight, but on their turf you're going to lose. They might lose you as a customer, but they seem comfortable with the consequences. You'll lose access to anythign there you might want to sell as well as anything you've bought. Is it worth it to you?
It's not that they are not a big company, it's just that tabletop RPGs are not a big industry. What would happen if the other companies started banning people from criticizing them? Are we to just stop doing game criticism completely?
Quote from: FelixGamingX1 on June 28, 2022, 11:17:49 PM
Quote from: FingerRod on June 28, 2022, 10:44:27 PM
I emailed feedback. I will not purchase from them unless they immediately reverse course.
How optimistic! In the good old days that's all it took. The new generation doesn't reverse course. Staff would need to be fully replaced, the site needs a modernized interface, and then most importantly you need people to accept your apology. This is basically a big F you to all publishers, who no matter how small contributed to staff salaries and kept the site alive for all these years.
Sadly, I'm not optimistic. They are undoubtedly watching this thread. If everyone upset emailed and posted here, who knows.
If not, it doesn't matter. It is good enough for me to just move on. I canceled a Disney cruise, scrapped a planned trip and have sadly not see Obi-Wan. I haven't ordered a single thing from Amazon in 13-14 months now. I have even turned my back on my beloved Ohio State Wokeyes.
My life is missing nothing. There are so many other options.
Like the above examples, I do not care whether OBS and I share political views. We actually may agree on quite a bit. But I will never stand for their tactics.
I would like to note that thanks to raging degenerate activism, the 'right to refuse service' is not nearly as far reaching as it used to be.
You can thank that mental defective in Colorado who keeps harassing the baker with lawsuits over that one.
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 28, 2022, 10:25:19 PM
I agree and was relieved that the camera never went lower than it did.
If it had gone down any farther I would have stopped to video. gThe good news is, when someone says "fatbeard" I know who to picture in my head.
How much of this came down from WOTC/Hasbro in order to keep selling old TSR products?
QuoteProduct Content
Neither your Work, description, nor any promotional material, including blog posts or press releases, may contain racist, homophobic, discriminatory, or other repugnant views; overt political agendas or views; depictions or descriptions of criminal violence against children; rape or other acts of criminal perversion; or other obscene material without the express written permission of OneBookShelf.
From their product standards guidelines: https://onebookshelfpublisherservice.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/227866467-Product-Standards-Guidelines
I don't think they're going to enforce this against the woke.
This also means a ton of edgy 90s books are in violation of the guidelines, particularly on Storyteller Vault. Are those going to be deactivated? Probably not.
Hooray for hypocrisy.
Quote from: Hopladamus on June 29, 2022, 04:14:06 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 28, 2022, 10:20:33 PM
Quote from: Hopladamus on June 28, 2022, 09:54:21 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 28, 2022, 04:07:16 PM
Quote from: Hopladamus on June 28, 2022, 02:53:09 PM
I should be allowed to criticize a company for bad practices, which is what OBS is trying to ban with these new rules. No, they are not obligated to host Venger's content on their platform, but then, they are failing to provide me a service that I want, which I should be allowed to criticize.
Private companies are not allowed to do what they want BTW. They can't for example, fire or refuse service to people based on their religious beliefs. Why should political beliefs be any different?
Now, that being said, Venger does like to purposely create drama just for the sake of it, and OBS is a platform that is pretty clear about its dislike of drama.
You can criticize them, and then they can then "reserve the right to refuse service" to you.
Yes, but it's an extremely poor business practice for a big marketplace such as OBS. They can just ignore my criticism if they are not interested.
Or perhaps, as another poster pointed out, they really aren't that big so that when shit is flung at them, they feel it and want to hit back. If that's the case, you can put up your fight, but on their turf you're going to lose. They might lose you as a customer, but they seem comfortable with the consequences. You'll lose access to anythign there you might want to sell as well as anything you've bought. Is it worth it to you?
It's not that they are not a big company, it's just that tabletop RPGs are not a big industry. What would happen if the other companies started banning people from criticizing them? Are we to just stop doing game criticism completely?
They can't take away your free speech, but they can impose consequences as it relates to your continued access to their products/services. That doesn't mean anyone has to stop criticizing them...but they might not want to shit where they eat.
Shirtless dude took a stand on his video. Let's see what happens.
For those of you who have extensively used DT/OBS, what are the customer or vendor-facing features you would need to support a competitor?
As both a customer and a vendor of RPG products, I'm not interested in doing business with an untrustworthy & hateful service like this. I would be interested in creating some exclusive content for a competitor site, and would happily support a site that more closely aligned with healthy values.
Quote from: Zelen on June 29, 2022, 10:59:06 AM
For those of you who have extensively used DT/OBS, what are the customer or vendor-facing features you would need to support a competitor?
Really it's not the features that everyone is relying on in any of these digital market places. It's the product placement in front of the customer base that makes it appealing to authors.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 28, 2022, 09:26:30 PM
If Raggi, You, FelixGamingX1 and others are serious about it you could pull together your resources, get a hosting service, buy a domain, install prestashop and buy the books template.
It's an instant ebook ecommerce bookstore.
I am not speaking for the person you were talking to, but I am considering doing just what you suggested. I have no dog in this fight as I do not have products on OneShelf but I have hosting and I work in IT and could get a site up pretty quickly.
I would need support to get the word out so that people will sell items and people will know to come.
What is the average % that OBS gets for a .pdf? I would try to price a bit lower to make it a little more desirable.
Quote from: Zelen on June 29, 2022, 10:59:06 AM
For those of you who have extensively used DT/OBS, what are the customer or vendor-facing features you would need to support a competitor?
As both a customer and a vendor of RPG products, I'm not interested in doing business with an untrustworthy & hateful service like this. I would be interested in creating some exclusive content for a competitor site, and would happily support a site that more closely aligned with healthy values.
The hobby isn't large enough to build a website from scratch. However, if there's some talented individuals here who are serious about starting something new with real expectations then the community could crowdfund?
Quote from: Zelen on June 29, 2022, 10:59:06 AM
For those of you who have extensively used DT/OBS, what are the customer or vendor-facing features you would need to support a competitor?
As both a customer and a vendor of RPG products, I'm not interested in doing business with an untrustworthy & hateful service like this. I would be interested in creating some exclusive content for a competitor site, and would happily support a site that more closely aligned with healthy values.
I have the hosting space and the IT knowledge and as someone who doesnt have a product on OBS but doesnt like their policy am seriously thinking of setting something up.
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 29, 2022, 11:14:47 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 28, 2022, 09:26:30 PM
If Raggi, You, FelixGamingX1 and others are serious about it you could pull together your resources, get a hosting service, buy a domain, install prestashop and buy the books template.
It's an instant ebook ecommerce bookstore.
I am not speaking for the person you were talking to, but I am considering doing just what you suggested. I have no dog in this fight as I do not have products on OneShelf but I have hosting and I work in IT and could get a site up pretty quickly.
I would need support to get the word out so that people will sell items and people will know to come.
What is the average % that OBS gets for a .pdf? I would try to price a bit lower to make it a little more desirable.
If you're serious, as an independent dev I'm not willing to pay more than 20% unless there's enough spotlight time that would justify a increased percentage.
It's important to remember publishers bring traffic to your business even if the customer doesn't buy your product they could acquire a different title. In the end you profit, regardless. The more publishers you have the more traffic you generate. You get a lot of free marketing so 20% is good enough.
Quote from: FelixGamingX1 on June 29, 2022, 11:18:32 AM
If you're serious, as an independent dev I'm not willing to pay more than 20% unless there's enough spotlight time that would justify a increased percentage.
I am as serious as it gets. So would 15% be acceptable? I think that could cover costs while giving the lions share to the developer.
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 29, 2022, 11:21:23 AM
Quote from: FelixGamingX1 on June 29, 2022, 11:18:32 AM
If you're serious, as an independent dev I'm not willing to pay more than 20% unless there's enough spotlight time that would justify a increased percentage.
I am as serious as it gets. So would 15% be acceptable? I think that could cover costs while giving the lions share to the developer.
You are discounting all the marketing and accounting costs that will be associated with such a startup. Remember that it's not the platform that OBS is providing that all these publishers want, it's the captured user base purchasing based on recommendations.
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 29, 2022, 11:21:23 AM
Quote from: FelixGamingX1 on June 29, 2022, 11:18:32 AM
If you're serious, as an independent dev I'm not willing to pay more than 20% unless there's enough spotlight time that would justify a increased percentage.
I am as serious as it gets. So would 15% be acceptable? I think that could cover costs while giving the lions share to the developer.
Sounds reasonable enough.
Quote from: Palleon on June 29, 2022, 11:23:47 AM
You are discounting all the marketing and accounting costs that will be associated with such a startup. Remember that it's not the platform that OBS is providing that all these publishers want, it's the captured user base purchasing based on recommendations.
You are right. As FelixGames said 20% would be acceptable and I think going any higher than that is just greedy. If you keep it lean you can do well, attract more Devs and more traffic.
I think that if material like Vengers is marked properly so people know that it could be not their cup of tea, then I don't see why all content should be made available.
If I do this I will definitely have a "no whining or complaining" (Not those words) clause in the terms of service and let people know that if they don't like it then don't buy it or look at it. We wont take it down.
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 29, 2022, 11:28:55 AM
I think that if material like Vengers is marked properly so people know that it could be not their cup of tea, then I don't see why all content should be made available.
If I do this I will definitely have a "no whining or complaining" (Not those words) clause in the terms of service and let people know that if they don't like it then don't buy it or look at it. We wont take it down.
That's good in principle, but there are people that choose to be pre-offended. You have to have a thick skin because you will never be able to please everyone.
Quote from: Zelen on June 29, 2022, 10:59:06 AM
For those of you who have extensively used DT/OBS, what are the customer or vendor-facing features you would need to support a competitor?
A company operating on libertarian and constitutional principles as part of their charter would be a huge first step.
In my case, DTRPG is my tip jar. Everything in my store is free or PWYW, I use any sales to buy stuff from other indies. So it is a host with benefits for me. More critically, I have a HUGE library of stuff there and many of the Kickstarters I back post their PDFs there as well. So, the odds of abandoning DTRPG are low. But, would I be willing to re-host and give up my exclusivity with them? At the drop of a hat since I was considering doing that anyway before this last policy change.
[Currently downloading several thousand products in my library to my hard drive just because I'm paranoid.]
The idea of a competitor is a always a good one. Now to the most important, generating the capital to get things up and running. You'll need a board of trusted people to draft ideas moving forward.
This is bad. I don't know what to say or do about this yet. I might just ignore it, since my stuff isn't controversial at all (and I seldom talk about politics online). But I can't.
DTRPG has been fine with me, but "we will take down anything we want and cast away those who complain" sounds ominous.
I haven't heard of him in a long while, but I agree with Raggi on this one. Let's hope we can do something before it's too late.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PufXMjSA-Kw
EDIT: just to make it clear, I think DTRPG has a right to sell or not sell whatever they want. They could make a "RPGs for kids only" store if they wanted to. The problem is that they've got an enormous chunk of the market and now publishers who rely too much on them are suddenly on shaky ground.
And as a reader, some of my favorite RPGs contain controversial/gory stuff, and I only have them on PDF. Fortunately, I download everything I buy.
Quote from: Zelen on June 27, 2022, 09:24:28 PM
For those of you with several products out there, what's the landscape like as far as selling RPG products without interference from evil & unhinged wokists? What percentage of business comes from DTRPG, OBS, or other service that has demonstrated hostility to creators based on political reasons?
Everything. If DTRPG kicks me out (which is unlikely, I think), I'm probably done publishing RPGs, at least for the foreseeable future. I might still spread some PDFs for fun.
Quote from: zircher on June 29, 2022, 12:18:07 PM
That's good in principle, but there are people that choose to be pre-offended. You have to have a thick skin because you will never be able to please everyone.
That's fine. With a warning if they complain we will simply say "There is a warning and you continued on anyway. We aren't going to take down anyone's materials. If you dont like it, dont read it.
If they still have a problem then they can fuck off elsewhere. Don't need them. Take the (little) power they have away from them.
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 29, 2022, 11:28:55 AM
I think that if material like Vengers is marked properly so people know that it could be not their cup of tea, then I don't see why all content should be made available.
If I do this I will definitely have a "no whining or complaining" (Not those words) clause in the terms of service and let people know that if they don't like it then don't buy it or look at it. We wont take it down.
There's already a MATURE filter in place and people can choose to enable/disable that filter. This is like when there was XXX movies at Blockbuster, you had to go behind a walled off area to get access to them, but that was your CHOICE.
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 29, 2022, 11:14:47 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 28, 2022, 09:26:30 PM
If Raggi, You, FelixGamingX1 and others are serious about it you could pull together your resources, get a hosting service, buy a domain, install prestashop and buy the books template.
It's an instant ebook ecommerce bookstore.
I am not speaking for the person you were talking to, but I am considering doing just what you suggested. I have no dog in this fight as I do not have products on OneShelf but I have hosting and I work in IT and could get a site up pretty quickly.
I would need support to get the word out so that people will sell items and people will know to come.
What is the average % that OBS gets for a .pdf? I would try to price a bit lower to make it a little more desirable.
DTRPG gets 25-30%.
And they give away 5-8% for affiliate links (IIRC).
I think affiliate links are extremely useful to "get the word out", as you say. I use them often when I write reviews, etc. The % is little but it is nice to get a coffee because you wrote a review sometimes.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on June 29, 2022, 01:07:47 PM
There's already a MATURE filter in place and people can choose to enable/disable that filter. This is like when there was XXX movies at Blockbuster, you had to go behind a walled off area to get access to them, but that was your CHOICE.
You are right. But I was looking at it more of a "You were warned and you went ahead anyway" kind of way. Not that things like that would be taken down anyway, but also you know if they looked at it with the warning and still complained, they were not doing complaining in good faith.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 29, 2022, 01:13:27 PM
DTRPG gets 25-30%.
And they give away 5-8% for affiliate links (IIRC).
I think affiliate links are extremely useful to "get the word out", as you say. I use them often when I write reviews, etc. The % is little but it is nice to get a coffee because you wrote a review sometimes.
Nice. That is something to think about. Thanks for the information
To provide contrast, Itch.io asks 10% and you have the option to give them more.
Quote from: zircher on June 29, 2022, 01:58:53 PM
To provide contrast, Itch.io asks 10% and you have the option to give them more.
Itch.io seems to make like they are a store front for multiple types of items, not rpgs themselves.
Well the morons on the big purple turd are advocating for deplatforming even as OBS is a defacto monopoly
https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/new-publisher-conduct-guidelines-at-onebookshelf.898908/
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 29, 2022, 02:41:37 PM
Well the morons on the big purple turd are advocating for deplatforming even as OBS is a defacto monopoly
https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/new-publisher-conduct-guidelines-at-onebookshelf.898908/
More like rpg.NOT! What a frightening place.
Quote from: FelixGamingX1 on June 29, 2022, 02:45:51 PM
More like rpg.NOT! What a frightening place.
They are very scary indeed. This is why SJW needs to be tamped down.
Using the complaint function as a weapon against people they do not like and being ok with deplatforming is just bad.
I'm sure that they're fine with it until it is used against them. It's that how the story always goes?
Quote from: zircher on June 29, 2022, 05:31:41 PM
I'm sure that they're fine with it until it is used against them. It's that how the story always goes?
You are right about that.
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 28, 2022, 05:58:24 PM
Great video but I have to ask, did he have to do the video shirtless? Kind of hard to take him seriously.
I think it was metaphorical.
He was about to lose his shirt when OBS banned him for the video.
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 29, 2022, 11:21:23 AM
Quote from: FelixGamingX1 on June 29, 2022, 11:18:32 AM
If you're serious, as an independent dev I'm not willing to pay more than 20% unless there's enough spotlight time that would justify a increased percentage.
I am as serious as it gets. So would 15% be acceptable? I think that could cover costs while giving the lions share to the developer.
Fuck yeah! I('m not a developer but count with me for anything I can help with (other than money ATM), need a logo etc? I can whip one up for FREE. And also count on me to promote the hell out of the store free of charge, I bet I can enlist other like minded people to help promote it too.
If we can convince Pundit, Raggi, Grim, Venger, Eric and other developers here to sell there you'd have some guaranteed traffic from the word go.
Quote from: DocJones on June 29, 2022, 06:06:34 PM
I think it was metaphorical.
He was about to lose his shirt when OBS banned him for the video.
Nah... go back and look at all the recent videos that are just James in front the the green screen. It's the running gag he's naked.
Hey GhostNinja I just had an idea, maybe it's just stupid but I thought about ahring it anyway:
Something that I just thought... Maybe offering the initial 10 publishers a bigger cut for a couple of years in exchange for some upfront money to finance the start up?
Or how about a crowdfunding campaign, the reward tiers are % discounts for the first year or a number of coupons with some discount on each.
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 29, 2022, 05:41:34 PM
Quote from: zircher on June 29, 2022, 05:31:41 PM
I'm sure that they're fine with it until it is used against them. It's that how the story always goes?
You are right about that.
This is why I'm against such policies. You never know when it will be used against you, and it
will be used against you.
The problem is that it will probably take a while for this to turn on the woke and in that time they could do irreversible damage.
I would be willing to help contribute a modest donation to finance an alternative site. I bet a number of people would also, especially if there's a bundle of content you get for doing so.
Quote from: Zelen on June 29, 2022, 09:19:49 PM
I would be willing to help contribute a modest donation to finance an alternative site. I bet a number of people would also, especially if there's a bundle of content you get for doing so.
I would too. But the only way I see something like that working would be having a few mid-level creators willing to come on board. You'd want it to be seen as a place that favors the artist and fosters creativity. As opposed to drivethru "the best out of a bad lot".
I think you'd also have to take a lesser cut. Do drivethru take 30% for exclusive and 40 for non-exclusive. I can't remember (my work is on there but I don't manage it).
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 29, 2022, 10:40:26 AM
Quote from: Hopladamus on June 29, 2022, 04:14:06 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 28, 2022, 10:20:33 PM
Quote from: Hopladamus on June 28, 2022, 09:54:21 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 28, 2022, 04:07:16 PM
Quote from: Hopladamus on June 28, 2022, 02:53:09 PM
I should be allowed to criticize a company for bad practices, which is what OBS is trying to ban with these new rules. No, they are not obligated to host Venger's content on their platform, but then, they are failing to provide me a service that I want, which I should be allowed to criticize.
Private companies are not allowed to do what they want BTW. They can't for example, fire or refuse service to people based on their religious beliefs. Why should political beliefs be any different?
Now, that being said, Venger does like to purposely create drama just for the sake of it, and OBS is a platform that is pretty clear about its dislike of drama.
You can criticize them, and then they can then "reserve the right to refuse service" to you.
Yes, but it's an extremely poor business practice for a big marketplace such as OBS. They can just ignore my criticism if they are not interested.
Or perhaps, as another poster pointed out, they really aren't that big so that when shit is flung at them, they feel it and want to hit back. If that's the case, you can put up your fight, but on their turf you're going to lose. They might lose you as a customer, but they seem comfortable with the consequences. You'll lose access to anythign there you might want to sell as well as anything you've bought. Is it worth it to you?
It's not that they are not a big company, it's just that tabletop RPGs are not a big industry. What would happen if the other companies started banning people from criticizing them? Are we to just stop doing game criticism completely?
They can't take away your free speech, but they can impose consequences as it relates to your continued access to their products/services. That doesn't mean anyone has to stop criticizing them...but they might not want to shit where they eat.
Shirtless dude took a stand on his video. Let's see what happens.
I fully acknowledge that they have every right to do this. I just think that it's a dishonest way to run a business.
Quote from: Hopladamus on June 29, 2022, 09:30:31 PM
I fully acknowledge that they have every right to do this. I just think that it's a dishonest way to run a business.
Someone sat down and ran numbers. "We make 30% of X number of sales for $Y. It costs us $Z in labor to review everything after bullshittery. $Z is larger than we are making. Cut these creators lose."
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 29, 2022, 05:41:34 PM
Quote from: zircher on June 29, 2022, 05:31:41 PM
I'm sure that they're fine with it until it is used against them. It's that how the story always goes?
You are right about that.
So, let's find every game with a trans character under age 18 and report them for child abuse (the state of Florida aG even suggested hormone replacement and trans surgery on minors as child abuse, so we've got legal cover). Then harvest the LOLs...
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 29, 2022, 09:26:30 PM
Quote from: Zelen on June 29, 2022, 09:19:49 PM
I would be willing to help contribute a modest donation to finance an alternative site. I bet a number of people would also, especially if there's a bundle of content you get for doing so.
I would too. But the only way I see something like that working would be having a few mid-level creators willing to come on board. You'd want it to be seen as a place that favors the artist and fosters creativity. As opposed to drivethru "the best out of a bad lot".
I think you'd also have to take a lesser cut. Do drivethru take 30% for exclusive and 40 for non-exclusive. I can't remember (my work is on there but I don't manage it).
Grimm already said he would also contribute with a small ammount and would be happy to sell there, that's one. James Raggi would probably sell there too, add Venger, MAYBE Pundit and you have 4 well known creators directing people to the site.
Now add ALL the smaller fish here and maybe just maybe other not so small fish.
I'm betting the site could launch with about 20-30 creators.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 30, 2022, 02:18:41 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 29, 2022, 09:26:30 PM
Quote from: Zelen on June 29, 2022, 09:19:49 PM
I would be willing to help contribute a modest donation to finance an alternative site. I bet a number of people would also, especially if there's a bundle of content you get for doing so.
I would too. But the only way I see something like that working would be having a few mid-level creators willing to come on board. You'd want it to be seen as a place that favors the artist and fosters creativity. As opposed to drivethru "the best out of a bad lot".
I think you'd also have to take a lesser cut. Do drivethru take 30% for exclusive and 40 for non-exclusive. I can't remember (my work is on there but I don't manage it).
Grimm already said he would also contribute with a small ammount and would be happy to sell there, that's one. James Raggi would probably sell there too, add Venger, MAYBE Pundit and you have 4 well known creators directing people to the site.
Now add ALL the smaller fish here and maybe just maybe other not so small fish.
I'm betting the site could launch with about 20-30 creators.
Don't forget Vincent Florio (TheEvilDM). He's the guy who makes Mazes and Perils and he's very much against the woke crowd. Tenkar, who also sells a few supplements on OBS, could be another potential partner.
Also, this might be a controversial suggestion, but Judges Guild, Varg Vikernes, and Zak Smith would probably also be willing to sell their products there. It should be fine as long as the storefront makes it clear that they do not affiliate themselves with the views of any of their publishers. In fact, the SJWs should also be allowed to sell their products there if they think that the platform is good.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 29, 2022, 09:26:30 PM
I would too. But the only way I see something like that working would be having a few mid-level creators willing to come on board. You'd want it to be seen as a place that favors the artist and fosters creativity. As opposed to drivethru "the best out of a bad lot".
I think you'd also have to take a lesser cut. Do drivethru take 30% for exclusive and 40 for non-exclusive. I can't remember (my work is on there but I don't manage it).
They take 30% if you're exclusive, and 35% if you're not.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 30, 2022, 02:18:41 AM
Grimm already said he would also contribute with a small ammount and would be happy to sell there, that's one. James Raggi would probably sell there too, add Venger, MAYBE Pundit and you have 4 well known creators directing people to the site.
Now add ALL the smaller fish here and maybe just maybe other not so small fish.
I'm betting the site could launch with about 20-30 creators.
Tiny fish here. I've been exclusive on DT since I first put something out about 10 years ago, but would absolutely sell on whatever site gets creates in response to this clusterfuck.
Sounds like we got enough publishers. How long would it take for the site to be up and running?
I would say that GJ made a good point about not letting the 'face' of the company be any of the 'big three' (Pundit, Venger or GJ). Because if you want to attract other players in the industry it really needs to be seen as neutral ground and one that benefits every artist regardless of politics.
Raggi might work even though some peeps don't like LoTFP (assuming he'd be interested of course).
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 30, 2022, 07:35:33 AM
I would say that GJ made a good point about not letting the 'face' of the company be any of the 'big three' (Pundit, Venger or GJ). Because if you want to attract other players in the industry it really needs to be seen as neutral ground and one that benefits every artist regardless of politics.
Raggi might work even though some peeps don't like LoTFP (assuming he'd be interested of course).
I think the contrary. I think all these cancelled celebrities should publicly run the site.
I got new stuff coming out towards the last quarter of the year. I would be willing to advertise the site and make the trpg portion of my work exclusive.
Quote from: FelixGamingX1 on June 30, 2022, 07:44:03 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 30, 2022, 07:35:33 AM
I would say that GJ made a good point about not letting the 'face' of the company be any of the 'big three' (Pundit, Venger or GJ). Because if you want to attract other players in the industry it really needs to be seen as neutral ground and one that benefits every artist regardless of politics.
Raggi might work even though some peeps don't like LoTFP (assuming he'd be interested of course).
I think the contrary. I think all these cancelled celebrities should publicly run the site.
I got new stuff coming out towards the last quarter of the year. I would be willing to advertise the site and make the trpg portion of my work exclusive.
I agree with you in theory but I think it may have adverse consequences for any venture unless you're are going to stay very niche. There are a lot of people that won't want to work with them. I mean, I work with GJ, and I've also used Pundit as a consultant in the past and both guys were great. But trying to convince others might be difficult. I'm just spitballing here.
Quote from: DocJones on June 29, 2022, 06:06:34 PM
I think it was metaphorical.
He was about to lose his shirt when OBS banned him for the video.
That may be so, but it was also disgusting. I was trying not to gag throughout the video. I mean, I have a better body than that, but I know better than to walk around without a shirt (at least outside of my house).
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 29, 2022, 06:22:15 PM
Fuck yeah! I('m not a developer but count with me for anything I can help with (other than money ATM), need a logo etc? I can whip one up for FREE. And also count on me to promote the hell out of the store free of charge, I bet I can enlist other like minded people to help promote it too.
If we can convince Pundit, Raggi, Grim, Venger, Eric and other developers here to sell there you'd have some guaranteed traffic from the word go.
Wow, this got a lot of responses so I am just catching up.
I appreciate the offer and I may take you up on that. I want to do something that looks nice and is fair to publishers and will give people other options for sale (or those who would rather not do it on their own site).
Oh, and if this does happen, if I screw up criticize me, I don't have a thin skin. You wanna let me know I messed up? Fine. I think many of OBS's policies I am going to use as an example of what NOT to do.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 29, 2022, 08:57:54 PM
Hey GhostNinja I just had an idea, maybe it's just stupid but I thought about sharing it anyway:
Something that I just thought... Maybe offering the initial 10 publishers a bigger cut for a couple of years in exchange for some upfront money to finance the start up?
This is a possibility. But then, with the publishers already getting the 80% of the profits they are already doing better than OBS or other places. Not shooting the idea down though.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 29, 2022, 08:57:54 PMOr how about a crowdfunding campaign, the reward tiers are % discounts for the first year or a number of coupons with some discount on each.
Do you think a crowdfunding campaign wouid work?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 29, 2022, 09:05:06 PM
This is why I'm against such policies. You never know when it will be used against you, and it will be used against you.
The problem is that it will probably take a while for this to turn on the woke and in that time they could do irreversible damage.
Yep, and the people on the big purple were naively saying that it wouldn't happen or it wouldn't be a big problem. It's like they are clueless to how the world really works. Especially these days where people are assholes to each other openly.
Quote from: Zelen on June 29, 2022, 09:19:49 PM
I would be willing to help contribute a modest donation to finance an alternative site. I bet a number of people would also, especially if there's a bundle of content you get for doing so.
I appreciate it and a crowdfunding campaign is something to consider since it could help with the costs and really help get to the site where it looks professional and look like a site people would want to use. I know there were other attempts but those sites looked amateurish and I can see why they didn't succeed.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 29, 2022, 09:26:30 PM
I would too. But the only way I see something like that working would be having a few mid-level creators willing to come on board. You'd want it to be seen as a place that favors the artist and fosters creativity. As opposed to drivethru "the best out of a bad lot".
I think you'd also have to take a lesser cut. Do drivethru take 30% for exclusive and 40 for non-exclusive. I can't remember (my work is on there but I don't manage it).
I am not sure if you saw what I said earlier in the conversation, but I was thinking 20% take. I would hope that would be low enough that people wouldn't need to be non-exclusive, although if they want to post them elsewhere I would understand.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 29, 2022, 10:18:01 PM
So, let's find every game with a trans character under age 18 and report them for child abuse (the state of Florida aG even suggested hormone replacement and trans surgery on minors as child abuse, so we've got legal cover). Then harvest the LOLs...
I get what you are saying, but (and I am being honest) wouldn't us doing that make us just as bad as they are? We would be stooping to their level. Don't we want to be better than them (which I think we already are)?
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 30, 2022, 09:16:33 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 29, 2022, 09:26:30 PM
I would too. But the only way I see something like that working would be having a few mid-level creators willing to come on board. You'd want it to be seen as a place that favors the artist and fosters creativity. As opposed to drivethru "the best out of a bad lot".
I think you'd also have to take a lesser cut. Do drivethru take 30% for exclusive and 40 for non-exclusive. I can't remember (my work is on there but I don't manage it).
I am not sure if you saw what I said earlier in the conversation, but I was thinking 20% take. I would hope that would be low enough that people wouldn't need to be non-exclusive, although if they want to post them elsewhere I would understand.
20% sounds good (not that I'm a finance guy). It's got to be able to sustain itself too, and nobody works for free.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 30, 2022, 02:18:41 AM
Grimm already said he would also contribute with a small ammount and would be happy to sell there, that's one. James Raggi would probably sell there too, add Venger, MAYBE Pundit and you have 4 well known creators directing people to the site.
Now add ALL the smaller fish here and maybe just maybe other not so small fish.
I'm betting the site could launch with about 20-30 creators.
This is starting to sound like a worthwhile project that I would be willing to take on. Let me start to put something together and see where I need to go.
Quote from: FelixGamingX1 on June 30, 2022, 07:17:34 AM
Sounds like we got enough publishers. How long would it take for the site to be up and running?
Well since there seems to be enough interest I am going to put together a business plan and try to get everything worked out. I am hoping it wont take too long. I may be able to get the domain name and site set up this weekend (3 day weekend).
Any thoughts on a good name?
If we crowdfund I'll commit $100. That's a year of web hosting with a dedicated server. I can recommend cheap and reliable web host with 99.9% uptime. None of that overpriced bs godaddy and likes offer.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 30, 2022, 07:35:33 AM
I would say that GJ made a good point about not letting the 'face' of the company be any of the 'big three' (Pundit, Venger or GJ). Because if you want to attract other players in the industry it really needs to be seen as neutral ground and one that benefits every artist regardless of politics.
Raggi might work even though some peeps don't like LoTFP (assuming he'd be interested of course).
I want to be open to all. I will make it known that the persons work doesn't represent the sites beliefs, but we are simply a marketplace for selling rpgs that is very neutral.
Quote from: FelixGamingX1 on June 30, 2022, 09:28:43 AM
If we crowdfund I'll commit $100. That's a year of web hosting with a dedicated server. I can recommend cheap and reliable web host with 99.9% uptime. None of that overpriced bs godaddy and likes offer.
I'd say you'd get some decent donations if the guys used their YT channels to promote the concept too (and then there are FB groups too). You've also go other peeps like Aron the pedantic, OGGM, and others that might be willing to help.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 30, 2022, 09:20:33 AM
20% sounds good (not that I'm a finance guy). It's got to be able to sustain itself too, and nobody works for free.
Right, because I am looking at ways to keep things lean so money is made for everyone and to keep costs down. And to make sure everyone has a place to sell their games.
Quote from: FelixGamingX1 on June 30, 2022, 09:28:43 AM
If we crowdfund I'll commit $100. That's a year of web hosting with a dedicated server. I can recommend cheap and reliable web host with 99.9% uptime. None of that overpriced bs godaddy and likes offer.
I have hosting, but if you know of a place had has dedicated servers for low prices, I will definitely look into that. Not sharing hosting can be very helpful for the speed of the site, which can make or break you.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 30, 2022, 09:32:48 AM
I'd say you'd get some decent donations if the guys used their YT channels to promote the concept too (and then there are FB groups too). You've also go other peeps like Aron the pedantic, OGGM, and others that might be willing to help.
Perfect. Thank you for the suggestions.
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 30, 2022, 09:35:44 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 30, 2022, 09:20:33 AM
20% sounds good (not that I'm a finance guy). It's got to be able to sustain itself too, and nobody works for free.
Right, because I am looking at ways to keep things lean so money is made for everyone and to keep costs down. And to make sure everyone has a place to sell their games.
Also, 10% isn't chump change when you're an indie creator. So 20% would be quite enticing!
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 30, 2022, 09:37:46 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 30, 2022, 09:32:48 AM
I'd say you'd get some decent donations if the guys used their YT channels to promote the concept too (and then there are FB groups too). You've also go other peeps like Aron the pedantic, OGGM, and others that might be willing to help.
Perfect. Thank you for the suggestions.
No problem! I mean, if anyone has contacts with Clown Fish or Jeremy Hambley they also might be worth getting in touch with as they have a huge audience. I know Pundit talked to him before about something. I think it was the case when Hambley was attacked at Gen Con (if I remember correctly).
I'm sure there are others out there too with big platforms that might have an interest in RPGs and that could help spread the good word. :)
Another important step to consider is how to handle bad actors. If the site will be open to everyone then it gotta avoid making drivethru's biggest flaws all over again. I thought I was the only one being abused there. Basically the same tactics used to cancel celebs were pulled on me. Which means there was a lack of will to fix the issue.
Quote from: FelixGamingX1 on June 30, 2022, 09:57:59 AM
Another important step to consider is how to handle bad actors. If the site will be open to everyone then it gotta avoid making drivethru's biggest flaws all over again. I thought I was the only one being abused there. Basically the same tactics used to cancel celebs were pulled on me. Which means there was a lack of will to fix the issue.
Reviewing would have to be totally overhauled.
And extensive tag system for filtering (for and against) would be a nice feature. Add in the review process could add or remove tags for consistency's sake and improve reliability.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 30, 2022, 10:19:23 AM
Quote from: FelixGamingX1 on June 30, 2022, 09:57:59 AM
Another important step to consider is how to handle bad actors. If the site will be open to everyone then it gotta avoid making drivethru's biggest flaws all over again. I thought I was the only one being abused there. Basically the same tactics used to cancel celebs were pulled on me. Which means there was a lack of will to fix the issue.
Reviewing would have to be totally overhauled.
Put some shitlords in charge of that.
No content gets taken down until after reviewed.
False flagging content gets you banned.
Only Illegal content gets removed? (I'm not for having Varg or ther JG guy on a site I own but I'm not the owner so)
As for categories:
OSR must have an actual meaning, I vote it should be reserved for games that are compatible with old D&D.
A different category for retroclones of other systems.
Maybe a broader one called Old School, then inside it OSR, OSG (this one with system divisions{d6, 2d6, 3d6, d%, etc})
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 30, 2022, 09:26:52 AM
Quote from: FelixGamingX1 on June 30, 2022, 07:17:34 AM
Sounds like we got enough publishers. How long would it take for the site to be up and running?
Well since there seems to be enough interest I am going to put together a business plan and try to get everything worked out. I am hoping it wont take too long. I may be able to get the domain name and site set up this weekend (3 day weekend).
Any thoughts on a good name?
Ye Olde Gaming Store?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 30, 2022, 10:36:15 AM
Put some shitlords in charge of that.
No content gets taken down until after reviewed.
False flagging content gets you banned.
Only Illegal content gets removed? (I'm not for having Varg or ther JG guy on a site I own but I'm not the owner so)[/quote]
That sounds like a good way to do it.
A question, if I may:
How 'hardened' is your web service going to be? Against both loud bot-driven Twitter ranting, as well as actual DDoS attacks?
Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 30, 2022, 10:53:13 AM
A question, if I may:
How 'hardened' is your web service going to be? Against both loud bot-driven Twitter ranting, as well as actual DDoS attacks?
Unfortunately nowadays there's no way to stop brute force login attempts. I get failed logins constantly, and banning IPs is not even a thing anymore.
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 30, 2022, 09:12:39 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 29, 2022, 09:05:06 PM
This is why I'm against such policies. You never know when it will be used against you, and it will be used against you.
The problem is that it will probably take a while for this to turn on the woke and in that time they could do irreversible damage.
Yep, and the people on the big purple were naively saying that it wouldn't happen or it wouldn't be a big problem. It's like they are clueless to how the world really works. Especially these days where people are assholes to each other openly.
We're already seeing the consequences of similar actions happening openly. E.g. after a certain legal ruling was recently overturned, Facebook immediately banned the promotion of products used to prevent the creation of life.
Corpos don't actually care about morality. Not ones that exist for long, anyway. They care about maximizing profit, because under the Darwinian capitalist system the ones that don't go out of business. As soon as it becomes convenient and legal to discriminate against people who are perceived as reducing profits, then corpos will discriminate. They don't care what their targets believe.
If OBS wasn't biased, e.g. they disallowed anyone from using their shop as a blatant political campaign platform, then I wouldn't have an issue. These are games, after all, and OBS is not a political platform. But they're not doing that. They're letting wokies sell products that openly state the author's values and insult anyone who doesn't 100% agree, but punishing anyone who does the same thing for any message right of woke. The content policy currently basically bans huge swathes of the population from engaging with it unless they carefully sanitize their products to avoid offending the woke and maintain completely anonymity so that the woke don't try to dox them anyway, while letting the woke do whatever they want. As soon as the pendulum swings...
I may not agree with the right, but I still recognize you as human beings with human rights and I still want your money damnit. The best way to handle political ideas you don't like isn't to censor them, but to calmly and rationally debate them.
One concern I'll raise:
As we've seen over the years, there's always some disagreements over what content belongs on a site. This can change over time too, as websites may change hands, or staff can become polarized in unpredictable ways. Who would have predicted, a less than five years ago, that child genital mutilation & sterilization would be major "controversial" issues?
It would be nice if the site were to use a permissionless protocol for content storage. e.g. LBRY. The benefit of using this is that if someone were to purchase a product from the site, it would always be available to them (downloadable, obviously you can always download a file and store locally) even if the site later decided to stop selling that product.
IMO this is a nice selling point and gives me confidence the site won't try to pull the rug out from under me.
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 30, 2022, 09:26:52 AM
Any thoughts on a good name?
The-Sellbook (the-sellbook.com)
The-Spellbook (the-spellbook.com)
TheRPGBookshop.com
TheRpgLibrary.com
TabletopLibrary.com
RPG-Direct.com
I've dealt with skinheads and neo-Nazis bullying me as a child (outright hazing, including/up to physical assault) and I have no problem with allowing them to speak freely. I'm a free speech radical.
I think all speech should not be censored.
It's a truly weak kind of "morality" that requires speech to be banned. If your thought is so weak that you require something else be banned (lest others be tempted or corrupted), then your ideas weren't any good to begin with.
Like, in the case of radical skinheads... I don't care if they shout in my face because their ideas suck ass. Let them speak freely. They'll hang themselves in the face of facts and simple reality.
Censorship is for the weak, and yet, we live in a society.
I'd certainly be interested in a new platform. I've always hesitated to "publish" my work through drivethru due to their ties to rpg.net and kickstarter just always feels like a bad way to get in over your head.
Quote from: Zelen on June 30, 2022, 11:55:11 AM
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 30, 2022, 09:26:52 AM
Any thoughts on a good name?
The-Sellbook (the-sellbook.com)
The-Spellbook (the-spellbook.com)
TheRPGBookshop.com
TheRpgLibrary.com
TabletopLibrary.com
RPG-Direct.com
DriveInRPG.com
YeOldeGamingShop.com
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 30, 2022, 09:42:05 AM
No problem! I mean, if anyone has contacts with Clown Fish or Jeremy Hambley they also might be worth getting in touch with as they have a huge audience. I know Pundit talked to him before about something. I think it was the case when Hambley was attacked at Gen Con (if I remember correctly).
I'm sure there are others out there too with big platforms that might have an interest in RPGs and that could help spread the good word. :)
I will keep that in mind, thanks for the suggestion.
Quote from: FelixGamingX1 on June 30, 2022, 09:57:59 AM
Another important step to consider is how to handle bad actors. If the site will be open to everyone then it gotta avoid making drivethru's biggest flaws all over again. I thought I was the only one being abused there. Basically the same tactics used to cancel celebs were pulled on me. Which means there was a lack of will to fix the issue.
I have been thinking about this. I do believe that bad actors should be handled. I was thinking that if someone does complain, the item would be reviewed but not taken down unless it is deemed to be a violation of the rules. That way reporting cannot be used as a weapon like it is with OBS.
What are some rules that you can think of that are a hard NO on. I mean child rape and things like that. I would like to figure out a set of rules for things too horrible to be allowed, but still allow people to push the envelope.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 30, 2022, 10:19:23 AM
Reviewing would have to be totally overhauled.
As stated above, any item that gets a complaint would be reviewed and then if it violates the guide would be taken down, thus removing the ability to use the complaint system as a weapon to settle beefs.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 30, 2022, 10:36:15 AM
Put some shitlords in charge of that.
Are you volunteering? ;D
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 30, 2022, 10:36:15 AM
No content gets taken down until after reviewed.
False flagging content gets you banned.
These are both policies I have thought about and would be the policies that I would use.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 30, 2022, 10:36:15 AMOnly Illegal content gets removed? (I'm not for having Varg or ther JG guy on a site I own but I'm not the owner so)
Absolutely. Dont need legal trouble. Being a start up is difficult enough as it is.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 30, 2022, 10:36:15 AM
As for categories:
OSR must have an actual meaning, I vote it should be reserved for games that are compatible with old D&D.
Great suggestion.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 30, 2022, 10:36:15 AM
A different category for retroclones of other systems.
Maybe a broader one called Old School, then inside it OSR, OSG (this one with system divisions{d6, 2d6, 3d6, d%, etc})
Sounds good.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 30, 2022, 10:53:13 AM
A question, if I may:
How 'hardened' is your web service going to be? Against both loud bot-driven Twitter ranting, as well as actual DDoS attacks?
As good as possible,. If someone wants to attack and cause problems, they will be able to do it. I could employ cloudflare which helps protect against DD0s attacks.
Quote from: FelixGamingX1 on June 30, 2022, 10:56:06 AM
Unfortunately nowadays there's no way to stop brute force login attempts. I get failed logins constantly, and banning IPs is not even a thing anymore.
Yep. Cloudflare is helpful against redirecting DD0s attack but like you say, if someone wants to be a jerk, there isnt a real way to stop them.
Just have to work to make sure security is as good as it possibly can be.
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 30, 2022, 02:10:02 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 30, 2022, 10:36:15 AM
Put some shitlords in charge of that.
Are you volunteering? ;D
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 30, 2022, 10:36:15 AM
No content gets taken down until after reviewed.
False flagging content gets you banned.
These are both policies I have thought about and would be the policies that I would use.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 30, 2022, 10:36:15 AMOnly Illegal content gets removed? (I'm not for having Varg or ther JG guy on a site I own but I'm not the owner so)
Absolutely. Dont need legal trouble. Being a start up is difficult enough as it is.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 30, 2022, 10:36:15 AM
As for categories:
OSR must have an actual meaning, I vote it should be reserved for games that are compatible with old D&D.
Great suggestion.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 30, 2022, 10:36:15 AM
A different category for retroclones of other systems.
Maybe a broader one called Old School, then inside it OSR, OSG (this one with system divisions{d6, 2d6, 3d6, d%, etc})
Sounds good.
It depends, is it a paid position? Living in México if you give me the US minimum wage I'm golden.
If it's not I could still help from time to time.
Quote from: Zelen on June 30, 2022, 11:41:18 AM
One concern I'll raise:
As we've seen over the years, there's always some disagreements over what content belongs on a site. This can change over time too, as websites may change hands, or staff can become polarized in unpredictable ways. Who would have predicted, a less than five years ago, that child genital mutilation & sterilization would be major "controversial" issues?
It would be nice if the site were to use a permissionless protocol for content storage. e.g. LBRY. The benefit of using this is that if someone were to purchase a product from the site, it would always be available to them (downloadable, obviously you can always download a file and store locally) even if the site later decided to stop selling that product.
IMO this is a nice selling point and gives me confidence the site won't try to pull the rug out from under me.
That's what I am trying to figure out. I am thinking Child abuse and things that are even too much for people like us. It has to be really horrible to be considered removable. I am trying to work that out, but something like what Veger put out would not be considered worthy of removing (I haven't read them but from what I have heard, they aren't) and something like that would be given an explicit label so people know that if that kind of things bothers them, then they should avoid it.
And if it has an explicit label and people complain, then we know to take it with a grain of salt.
The policy I am going to go with is an item up for review stays up, until it is deemed a violation of the rules. That way the reporting system cannot be abused and used as a weapon.
Quote from: Zelen on June 30, 2022, 11:55:11 AM
TheRPGBookshop.com
TheRpgLibrary.com
TabletopLibrary.com
RPG-Direct.com
I like TheRPGBookshop.com and RPG-Direct.com. The Bookshop one may be my favorite. Not sure about library because that sounds like it lends out books that have to be returned.
Thank you for the suggestions.
Quote from: David Johansen on June 30, 2022, 01:53:59 PM
I'd certainly be interested in a new platform. I've always hesitated to "publish" my work through drivethru due to their ties to rpg.net and kickstarter just always feels like a bad way to get in over your head.
I want to create something developer/Publisher friendly so they can post their items and not feel like they are walking on egg shells. That is no fun. Kind of how it feels posting on the big purple.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 30, 2022, 01:57:24 PM
DriveInRPG.com
While I appreciate the suggestion, DriveINRpg.com is too close to Drivethrurpg.com and knowing that OBS are a bunch of shitheads, they would try to sue if I used that name, not to mention do so to get rid of any possible competition.
Don't need to give them any ammo.
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 30, 2022, 02:37:24 PM
Quote from: David Johansen on June 30, 2022, 01:53:59 PM
I'd certainly be interested in a new platform. I've always hesitated to "publish" my work through drivethru due to their ties to rpg.net and kickstarter just always feels like a bad way to get in over your head.
I want to create something developer/Publisher friendly so they can post their items and not feel like they are walking on egg shells. That is no fun. Kind of how it feels posting on the big purple.
My advice would be to do this project in equal partnership with an established RPG designer (Pundit would be my first choice, but Grim, Venger, Raggi, or TheEvilDM would also be a decent choice, or maybe someone else who shares our views). No offense, but you are not exactly someone that people would eagerly put their trust in to sell their products since you're not an established name in the industry. I think that you will need the credibility of someone who's, at least somewhat, a known name in the TTRPG medium.
Quote from: Hopladamus on June 30, 2022, 02:47:18 PM
My advice would be to do this project in equal partnership with an established RPG designer (Pundit would be my first choice, but Grim, Venger, Raggi, or TheEvilDM would also be a decent choice, or maybe someone else who shares our views). No offense, but you are not exactly someone that people would eagerly put their trust in to sell their products since you're not an established name in the industry. I think that you will need the credibility of someone who's, at least somewhat, a known name in the TTRPG medium.
As GJ said in his video, you need to target getting some mid-sized publishers not deemed part of the that sphere.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpEzHzCttzs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpEzHzCttzs)
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 30, 2022, 02:14:39 PM
It depends, is it a paid position? Living in México if you give me the US minimum wage I'm golden.
If it's not I could still help from time to time.
I will have to see what the money situation is. If possible, it could be a paid spot. I am going to try to keep things lean at first to help it succeed, but I will need help.
Quote from: Palleon on June 30, 2022, 02:53:55 PM
As GJ said in his video, you need to target getting some mid-sized publishers not deemed part of the that sphere.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpEzHzCttzs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpEzHzCttzs)
Thanks for the link. I will check out the video when I have a chance. Busy day at work today.
Quote from: Palleon on June 29, 2022, 09:54:18 PM
Someone sat down and ran numbers. "We make 30% of X number of sales for $Y. It costs us $Z in labor to review everything after bullshittery. $Z is larger than we are making. Cut these creators lose."
And a confirmation of this from Steve Wieck's blog response: https://medium.com/oneblogshelf/onebookshelfs-recently-amended-conduct-guidelines-dfc073f9c954 (https://medium.com/oneblogshelf/onebookshelfs-recently-amended-conduct-guidelines-dfc073f9c954)
Quote
This marketing ploy depletes time and resources, both professional and emotional, from both our customer service and publisher relations teams each time it happens, invariably far out of proportion to any benefit we see from selling such titles.
In short, we are not interested in being the scapegoat for any publisher who wishes to repeatedly market titles via attempting to generate outrage towards us.
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 30, 2022, 02:36:01 PM
Quote from: Zelen on June 30, 2022, 11:55:11 AM
TheRPGBookshop.com
TheRpgLibrary.com
TabletopLibrary.com
RPG-Direct.com
I like TheRPGBookshop.com and RPG-Direct.com. The Bookshop one may be my favorite. Not sure about library because that sounds like it lends out books that have to be returned.
Thank you for the suggestions.
RPG-Direct has a nice ring to it.
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 30, 2022, 02:59:42 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 30, 2022, 02:14:39 PM
It depends, is it a paid position? Living in México if you give me the US minimum wage I'm golden.
If it's not I could still help from time to time.
I will have to see what the money situation is. If possible, it could be a paid spot. I am going to try to keep things lean at first to help it succeed, but I will need help.
I'm willing to donate time for a while.
Quote from: Palleon on June 30, 2022, 03:10:17 PM
And a confirmation of this from Steve Wieck's blog response: https://medium.com/oneblogshelf/onebookshelfs-recently-amended-conduct-guidelines-dfc073f9c954 (https://medium.com/oneblogshelf/onebookshelfs-recently-amended-conduct-guidelines-dfc073f9c954)
Translation: People are complaining so we now have to backpeddle and try to make the changes look better. Got it.
Quote from: FelixGamingX1 on June 30, 2022, 03:11:29 PM
RPG-Direct has a nice ring to it.
Yep, it's under consideration.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 30, 2022, 03:12:52 PM
I'm willing to donate time for a while.
I appreciate it. If I can pay I will. If you donate time I will figure a way to reward you/pay you back for that.
Quote from: FingerRod on June 29, 2022, 06:44:00 AM
Quote from: FelixGamingX1 on June 28, 2022, 11:17:49 PM
Quote from: FingerRod on June 28, 2022, 10:44:27 PM
I emailed feedback. I will not purchase from them unless they immediately reverse course.
How optimistic! In the good old days that's all it took. The new generation doesn't reverse course. Staff would need to be fully replaced, the site needs a modernized interface, and then most importantly you need people to accept your apology. This is basically a big F you to all publishers, who no matter how small contributed to staff salaries and kept the site alive for all these years.
Sadly, I'm not optimistic. They are undoubtedly watching this thread. If everyone upset emailed and posted here, who knows.
If not, it doesn't matter. It is good enough for me to just move on. I canceled a Disney cruise, scrapped a planned trip and have sadly not see Obi-Wan. I haven't ordered a single thing from Amazon in 13-14 months now. I have even turned my back on my beloved Ohio State Wokeyes.
My life is missing nothing. There are so many other options.
Like the above examples, I do not care whether OBS and I share political views. We actually may agree on quite a bit. But I will never stand for their tactics.
The struggle is real! Change is difficult, but sometimes necessary. Can I help celebrate your newfound freedom and independence by sending you one or more PDFs (on the house)? Just let me know...
Quote from: Hopladamus on June 30, 2022, 02:47:18 PM
My advice would be to do this project in equal partnership with an established RPG designer (Pundit would be my first choice, but Grim, Venger, Raggi, or TheEvilDM would also be a decent choice, or maybe someone else who shares our views). No offense, but you are not exactly someone that people would eagerly put their trust in to sell their products since you're not an established name in the industry. I think that you will need the credibility of someone who's, at least somewhat, a known name in the TTRPG medium.
Funny you say that because the video that Grim just put out video saying the exact opposite. Interesting
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 30, 2022, 04:23:12 PM
Quote from: Hopladamus on June 30, 2022, 02:47:18 PM
My advice would be to do this project in equal partnership with an established RPG designer (Pundit would be my first choice, but Grim, Venger, Raggi, or TheEvilDM would also be a decent choice, or maybe someone else who shares our views). No offense, but you are not exactly someone that people would eagerly put their trust in to sell their products since you're not an established name in the industry. I think that you will need the credibility of someone who's, at least somewhat, a known name in the TTRPG medium.
Funny you say that because the video that Grim just put out video saying the exact opposite. Interesting
None of the known not woke creators can be the face, they can be silent and secret partners (if that's legal).
What you do need is to get them to sell on your site, that's people with a built in audience pointing buyers to the new store.
Focus on medium/small creators, their stuff gets lost on DTTRPG, buried by the big fish and the crapton of crap content.
Which reminds me of another thing, how to prevent a flood of crap that buries the other stuff?
I mean all the 2 pages "rpgs" and that sort of stuff. I'm not saying those shouldn't be allowed, I'm saying there needs to be someway to prevent low quality content from burying the other stuff by sheer numbers.
One idea is to have the landing page be a cured catalogue of publishers/creators, cured by selling power, not downloads but dollars, thus if I publish 1000 free 2 pages crap I can't bury the people driving money into the coffers.
Right below that I would put the best sellers, then the best sellers by category.
Main problem is you'd have no POD at the start, so free quality stuff (White Box, SWN, etc) on PDF would need to be curated and put somewhere easy to find (If/when those publishers/creators sign up to sell there).
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 29, 2022, 02:41:37 PM
Well the morons on the big purple turd are advocating for deplatforming even as OBS is a defacto monopoly
https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/new-publisher-conduct-guidelines-at-onebookshelf.898908/
I wonder why Scott J. Holden doesn't post here at TheRPGsite? They seem pretty chummy with him over at The Big Purple. Weird...
Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 29, 2022, 10:18:01 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 29, 2022, 05:41:34 PM
Quote from: zircher on June 29, 2022, 05:31:41 PM
I'm sure that they're fine with it until it is used against them. It's that how the story always goes?
You are right about that.
So, let's find every game with a trans character under age 18 and report them for child abuse (the state of Florida aG even suggested hormone replacement and trans surgery on minors as child abuse, so we've got legal cover). Then harvest the LOLs...
Here's your first... LOL!
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 29, 2022, 11:21:23 AM
I am as serious as it gets.
I'm glad to offer any assistance as well. DevOps and DevSecOps is my trade, 23 years experience.
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 30, 2022, 09:26:52 AM
Any thoughts on a good name?
Your Role-Playing Games
Which allows the play on it of
Your Role? Playing Games
yourrpgs.com
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 30, 2022, 04:23:12 PM
Quote from: Hopladamus on June 30, 2022, 02:47:18 PM
My advice would be to do this project in equal partnership with an established RPG designer (Pundit would be my first choice, but Grim, Venger, Raggi, or TheEvilDM would also be a decent choice, or maybe someone else who shares our views). No offense, but you are not exactly someone that people would eagerly put their trust in to sell their products since you're not an established name in the industry. I think that you will need the credibility of someone who's, at least somewhat, a known name in the TTRPG medium.
Funny you say that because the video that Grim just put out video saying the exact opposite. Interesting
Eh, I can't agree with him on this. Let's be honest here, the main appeal of your OBS alternative would be that it's more pro-free speech than the OBS, so that's how you should market it. Anyone who outspokenly supports free speech is controversial in the TTRPG industry.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 30, 2022, 04:36:14 PM
Focus on medium/small creators, their stuff gets lost on DTTRPG, buried by the big fish and the crapton of crap content.
Which reminds me of another thing, how to prevent a flood of crap that buries the other stuff?
I mean all the 2 pages "rpgs" and that sort of stuff. I'm not saying those shouldn't be allowed, I'm saying there needs to be someway to prevent low quality content from burying the other stuff by sheer numbers.
That. Nothing worse than working 8+ months on something and BAM! Someone just uploaded 10 single page "RPGs". Spotlight gone!
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 30, 2022, 04:36:14 PM
I mean all the 2 pages "rpgs" and that sort of stuff. I'm not saying those shouldn't be allowed, I'm saying there needs to be someway to prevent low quality content from burying the other stuff by sheer numbers.
This is kind of hypothetical at the moment, but with a good content tagging system, it should be easy to solve this. Have tags for page count and it'd be easy to filter out those 1-2 page products.
TBH I don't really ever want to see those types of items and I've always disliked seeing them come up when I search for content. Maybe I never spent enough time with their search feature.
Quote from: Zelen on June 30, 2022, 07:13:49 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 30, 2022, 04:36:14 PM
I mean all the 2 pages "rpgs" and that sort of stuff. I'm not saying those shouldn't be allowed, I'm saying there needs to be someway to prevent low quality content from burying the other stuff by sheer numbers.
This is kind of hypothetical at the moment, but with a good content tagging system, it should be easy to solve this. Have tags for page count and it'd be easy to filter out those 1-2 page products.
TBH I don't really ever want to see those types of items and I've always disliked seeing them come up when I search for content. Maybe I never spent enough time with their search feature.
Give them their own category? Ultra Small RPGs.
Quote from: FelixGamingX1 on June 30, 2022, 06:30:08 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 30, 2022, 04:36:14 PM
Focus on medium/small creators, their stuff gets lost on DTTRPG, buried by the big fish and the crapton of crap content.
Which reminds me of another thing, how to prevent a flood of crap that buries the other stuff?
I mean all the 2 pages "rpgs" and that sort of stuff. I'm not saying those shouldn't be allowed, I'm saying there needs to be someway to prevent low quality content from burying the other stuff by sheer numbers.
That. Nothing worse than working 8+ months on something and BAM! Someone just uploaded 10 single page "RPGs". Spotlight gone!
Since I have more than 8 months already on the RPG I want to publish first I couldn't agree more.
Honestly this is a self serving proposal. But I honesly think it's a good one for the site and the publishers.
Quote from: Palleon on June 30, 2022, 03:10:17 PM
Quote from: Palleon on June 29, 2022, 09:54:18 PM
Someone sat down and ran numbers. "We make 30% of X number of sales for $Y. It costs us $Z in labor to review everything after bullshittery. $Z is larger than we are making. Cut these creators lose."
And a confirmation of this from Steve Wieck's blog response: https://medium.com/oneblogshelf/onebookshelfs-recently-amended-conduct-guidelines-dfc073f9c954 (https://medium.com/oneblogshelf/onebookshelfs-recently-amended-conduct-guidelines-dfc073f9c954)
Quote
This marketing ploy depletes time and resources, both professional and emotional, from both our customer service and publisher relations teams each time it happens, invariably far out of proportion to any benefit we see from selling such titles.
In short, we are not interested in being the scapegoat for any publisher who wishes to repeatedly market titles via attempting to generate outrage towards us.
Here's the thing. I totally respect the guy and it's not easy to build a business from the ground up. Of course you only want people to see the good and that's universal. However, either he's being cynical or they lacking team communication.
I saw drivethrurpg in 2016 and now, six years later, it has only worsened. There's a overwhelming amount of woke content, and things I'd rather not see. It would have been easier for the site to add a woke works filter and leave the rest of us who don't care about this movement alone?
The big issue with a new RPG PDF shop is DriveThruRPG takes a smaller chunk of the profits if your PDF product is exclusive with them. Thus anyone who joins another PDF site will watch their DriveThru profits shrivel significantly.
Of course, there's also DriveThru's following of customers. It's hard to get customers to visit (and trust) another vendor and marketing is prohibitly expensive considering the very low profits of RPG PDFs.
Also, DriveThru offering POD puts them ahead of a competitor which was just PDF downloads. Thus, a new competitor would have to spend heavily on marketing and have POD contracts in an industry with already thin profits.
AKA, its not financially viable.
So what's the solution?
DriveThru is beholden to the freak brigade as the hobby gets more libtarded, not less. Heck, GenCon is now hosting "No-Whiteys-Allowed Events" so we know where the hobby is going - off the woke cliff.
Thus, we need:
1) Someone willing to risk chunky money for a low chance of profit.
2) Publishers willing to get paid less in the biggest RPG venue. Perhaps publishers could create a "Free Speech Imprint" that operates separately than the company they use to publish on DriveThru.
3) Customers who will trust giving their credit cards to a new startup instead of just sticking with DriveThru.
As much as we need a parallel economy in our hobby, I don't see an easy path forward. Instead, I see LOTS of financial risk and low customer interest.
Non-scientific poll shows a little over half prefer DriveThru and 40% to purchase directly from the publishers.
https://twitter.com/jasonbulmahn/status/1542220308622413824?s=21&t=saoM06r5tXrOqOV3s8G-gA (https://twitter.com/jasonbulmahn/status/1542220308622413824?s=21&t=saoM06r5tXrOqOV3s8G-gA)
Quote from: Zalman on June 30, 2022, 04:53:09 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 29, 2022, 11:21:23 AM
I am as serious as it gets.
I'm glad to offer any assistance as well. DevOps and DevSecOps is my trade, 23 years experience.
Thank you, I appreciate it. I will keep you in mind and if need be I will reach out to you
Quote from: Hopladamus on June 30, 2022, 06:12:30 PM
Eh, I can't agree with him on this. Let's be honest here, the main appeal of your OBS alternative would be that it's more pro-free speech than the OBS, so that's how you should market it. Anyone who outspokenly supports free speech is controversial in the TTRPG industry.
I agree, and free speech is a main tenant to my plan. If an item violates our policy, report it. But we wont pull it until we are sure it actually violates or policy and it will have to be really bad to do so.
Quote from: Spinachcat on June 30, 2022, 09:48:59 PM
As much as we need a parallel economy in our hobby, I don't see an easy path forward. Instead, I see LOTS of financial risk and low customer interest.
We are in the era of niche marketing. Mass appeal is limiting. Why do you think corporations went woke? The problem with that is it's taking its tow toll in western society from north to south. I strongly believe a lot of woke corporate isn't woke at all.
Quote from: GhostNinja on July 01, 2022, 08:22:15 AM
Quote from: Hopladamus on June 30, 2022, 06:12:30 PM
Eh, I can't agree with him on this. Let's be honest here, the main appeal of your OBS alternative would be that it's more pro-free speech than the OBS, so that's how you should market it. Anyone who outspokenly supports free speech is controversial in the TTRPG industry.
I agree, and free speech is a main tenant to my plan. If an item violates our policy, report it. But we wont pull it until we are sure it actually violates or policy and it will have to be really bad to do so.
And if what Spinachcat said is true and OBS really does offer higher percentages for exclusives, then the only people who would be reasonably interested in selling on your store are the people who stand the risk of being censored or banned on OBS. That's why you should be working together with the "pro-free speech" publishers on this site. I have already given you some names. Pundit, Venger, and Grim Jim are the obvious choices. TheEvilDM is another good choice since he's a professional designer who made Mazes and Perils, he got a bit involved with the TSR drama though, but he is generally considered innocent. Zak Smith is fine since, even though he's kinda two-faced, he still makes good games and didn't deserve to be banned from OBS. Now, as for the Judges Guild, Robert Bledsaw II is kind of a white nationalist, but most of the games he sells were made by his father who was not. And he was also banned from OBS for his politics, which is dumb. Most of the Judges Guild customers are actually fans of his father's work, and not him, so they probably don't share his politics. Now, as for Varg and MYFAROG, he most definitely is a white nationalist, and, while I do think that allowing him to sell his games on your site would be good, it would attract a white nationalist audience, who have a tendency to think that any pro-free speech platform is a good place for their "10 Reasons Why Holocaust Couldn't Have Happened" list, so that's something that you should keep in mind.
Anyway, the best people to be your partners in this endeavor are, in my opinion, Pundit, Venger, Grim, and TheEvilDM.
I quite like the name of RPG-Direct. It's short and snappy.
It'd be great if it brought small creators together (even if you may not like their games). Just a place for creativity without politics (IMO).
Hey venger, someone just got perma'd at tbp for slightly defending you.
Which gets back to my question about where does satire fit on the spectrum of offensive? Like some comedians, the intent is to be loud and offensive, but in a presumably entertaining way. So to me, VS (since he's the obvious example here) is making fun of certain groups and attitudes with a gonzo but satirical heavy hand... primarily for entertainment purposes. It's freaking obvious to me that the material is not seriously political as much a cultural statement. He's not going to change anyone's party or who they prefer to associate with. I wonder if adding a satire and/or parody flag to a product would be appropriate for OBS? That way they can get product out and you know... generate revenue rather than generating policy like a fascist dictator. [That last part is supposed to be humor, just in case you don't get it.]
Heres's the notice.
After a six year absence you finally return to defend a notorious hatemonger with the "it's only a joke" apologia. You clearly have no interest in this community. Go away.
Oh they said this about you in the thread.
Darrick Dishaw (Venger Satanis) genuinely hates the people that he's satirizing. Outside of his game products, when talking about his actual everyday non-comical beliefs, he's stated that queer people are grooming children, among other things. The same exact thing said by that the group of over 30 Neo-Nazis who were arrested for planning an armed attack on a Pride parade. You think giving him a platform is okay because he expresses his violent real-life, actual sincere beliefs in a joking hyperbolic way when he's writing under his stupid pseudonym?
I mean, do you think that actual Klansmen and Neo-Nazis don't also tell the occasional racist joke about killing people of minority groups? And thus the racist joke is okay because it's a joke, and the fact that those people also want to kill members of other races shouldn't be factored into how we take it?
Of course they compared you to the kkk and nazis.
Man, announce a defamation abd slander case against them, take up a gofundme and go for it. Hell, go on rightwing media and claim you're being persecuted bya woke company. You'll probably pull in a lot of donations and be able to launch a lawsuit since then named you abd said you 'genuinely hate' people . How can they claim to know your emotional state and stqrenit as fact?
Even if the suit gets tossed you walk away with some bucks.
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 02, 2022, 09:13:33 AM
Hey venger, someknenjust got perma'd at tbp for slightly defending you.
Which gets back to my question about where does satire fit on the spectrum of offensive? Like some comedians, the intent is to be loud and offensive, but in a presumably entertaining way. So to me, VS (since he's the obvious example here) is making fun of certain groups and attitudes with a gonzo but satirical heavy hand... primarily for entertainment purposes. It's freaking obvious to me that the material is not seriously political as much a cultural statement. He's not going to change anyone's party or who they prefer to associate with. I wonder if adding a satire and/or parody flag to a product would be appropriate for OBS? That way they can get product out and you know... generate revenue rather than generating policy like a fascist dictator. [That last part is supposed to be humor, just in case you don't get it.]
Heres's the notice.
After a six year absence you finally return to defend a notorious hatemonger with the "it's only a joke" apologia. You clearly have no interest in this community. Go away.
Oh they said this about you in the thread.
Darrick Dishaw (Venger Satanis) genuinely hates the people that he's satirizing. Outside of his game products, when talking about his actual everyday non-comical beliefs, he's stated that queer people are grooming children, among other things. The same exact thing said by that the group of over 30 Neo-Nazis who were arrested for planning an armed attack on a Pride parade. You think giving him a platform is okay because he expresses his violent real-life, actual sincere beliefs in a joking hyperbolic way when he's writing under his stupid pseudonym?
I mean, do you think that actual Klansmen and Neo-Nazis don't also tell the occasional racist joke about killing people of minority groups? And thus the racist joke is okay because it's a joke, and the fact that those people also want to kill members of other races shouldn't be factored into how we take it?
Of course they compared you to the kkk and nazis.
Man, announce a defamation abd slander case against them, take up a gofundme and go for it. Hell, go on rightwing media and claim you're being persecuted bya woke company. You'll probably pull in a lot of donations and be able to launch a lawsuit since then named you abd said you 'genuinely hate' people . How can they claim to know your emotional state and stqrenit as fact?
Even if the suit gets tossed you walk away with some bucks.
Yes, worth considering!
BTW, I have some news... DTRPG sent me a short list of minor changes. I had layout make those changes and DTRPG will re-review
Rainbow Crystal Utopia next week. So, we'll see what they say.
Yesterday's blog post that says the same thing: https://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2022/07/rainbow-bound.html
Or better yet, put another curse on them! Ooga-booga!
Quote from: VengerSatanis on July 02, 2022, 10:07:47 AM
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 02, 2022, 09:13:33 AM
Hey venger, someknenjust got perma'd at tbp for slightly defending you.
Which gets back to my question about where does satire fit on the spectrum of offensive? Like some comedians, the intent is to be loud and offensive, but in a presumably entertaining way. So to me, VS (since he's the obvious example here) is making fun of certain groups and attitudes with a gonzo but satirical heavy hand... primarily for entertainment purposes. It's freaking obvious to me that the material is not seriously political as much a cultural statement. He's not going to change anyone's party or who they prefer to associate with. I wonder if adding a satire and/or parody flag to a product would be appropriate for OBS? That way they can get product out and you know... generate revenue rather than generating policy like a fascist dictator. [That last part is supposed to be humor, just in case you don't get it.]
Heres's the notice.
After a six year absence you finally return to defend a notorious hatemonger with the "it's only a joke" apologia. You clearly have no interest in this community. Go away.
Oh they said this about you in the thread.
Darrick Dishaw (Venger Satanis) genuinely hates the people that he's satirizing. Outside of his game products, when talking about his actual everyday non-comical beliefs, he's stated that queer people are grooming children, among other things. The same exact thing said by that the group of over 30 Neo-Nazis who were arrested for planning an armed attack on a Pride parade. You think giving him a platform is okay because he expresses his violent real-life, actual sincere beliefs in a joking hyperbolic way when he's writing under his stupid pseudonym?
I mean, do you think that actual Klansmen and Neo-Nazis don't also tell the occasional racist joke about killing people of minority groups? And thus the racist joke is okay because it's a joke, and the fact that those people also want to kill members of other races shouldn't be factored into how we take it?
Of course they compared you to the kkk and nazis.
Man, announce a defamation abd slander case against them, take up a gofundme and go for it. Hell, go on rightwing media and claim you're being persecuted bya woke company. You'll probably pull in a lot of donations and be able to launch a lawsuit since then named you abd said you 'genuinely hate' people . How can they claim to know your emotional state and stqrenit as fact?
Even if the suit gets tossed you walk away with some bucks.
Yes, worth considering!
BTW, I have some news... DTRPG sent me a short list of minor changes. I had layout make those changes and DTRPG will re-review Rainbow Crystal Utopia next week. So, we'll see what they say.
Yesterday's blog post that says the same thing: https://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2022/07/rainbow-bound.html
You're such a cuck
Quote from: Tubesock Army on July 02, 2022, 10:07:58 AM
Or better yet, put another curse on them! Ooga-booga!
They're already languishing in the sub-mediocrity that is RPGnet; full of delusion, victimhood, soy Marxist revolution, and cringe insanity... what could be worse than that?