So I am going to run a Nova Praxis campaign (in Savage Worlds) eventually (it's what I am doing when my rotation comes up again in our group). Because of this I have been reading other transhumanist Sci-fi settings.
Which leads me to Eclipse Phase, I heard that it was the more "post-human" setting, which I thought would be good to explore because the Nova Praxis setting is very much in a state transition and the campaign could easily spin off into a very post-human society.
EP got some interesting ideas but man were certain social/cultural assumptions bugging me. Things like "life-long relationships are considered unlikely", "people trying to stay human are bad", and "in the face of extinction people killed each other as much as the evil AI did because all corporations are run by suicidal sociopaths" seemed odd too me.
Then I got to the section on religions where the author states that Christianity and Judaism were too dogmatic to not fall apart with the existence of transhumanity, but Islam was more flexible/enlightened so it is still around.
That right there is a full immersion kill. Nova Praxis handle this much better and talked about how religion adapted or viewed the soul differently while others maintained that re-sleeving killed you and it's why many people are resisting apotheosis (especially since medical technology is indefinitely extending life spans more and more so this stance isn't suicidal).
I hate when I am liking something and then some sort of crazy SJW/Alt-right notion pulls me right out and I start questioning if the media is propaganda. Like I get that a lot of art is political. But at least try to know what you are talking about before you make nonsense claims.
Not just politically, but I like Nova Praxis setting more for a lot of reasons. I think setting is a tad more coherent and structured to give more jumping off points. The time period it is in also makes it a lot easier to get into. The average person in Eclipse Phase "trivializes" regular people (who are considered little better than slaves or brute animals and it's considered ethically wrong that they are forced to exist like that). It's kind'of hard to roleplay entities that are just better than you. It's like running a high concept fantasy Immortals campaign without working your way up into it (like in BECMI).
Idk, I think the Nova Praxis writer took better care to make an agnostic setting that explored ideas rather than willy nilly injecting his bias on what he thinks human behavior should be.
I'm pro-space, trans-humanity, science, and what-not and I think advocating against life extension procedures is equivalent to murder (some people really think people shouldn't be immortal and that we need to all die eventually), but that's philosophical argument. I don't think people are evil because they don't want a robot body, or exist as software, or be a sapient flesh ball that propels themselves in micro-gravity via tiny gas jets.
I mainly stayed away from EP because I knew the writer was something of a hack from his work on Shadowrun and because I didn't like the percentile system as implemented in EP.
Lol at Islam being more flexible than Catholicism. That's cute Mr. SJW have a cookie.
I was temporarily banned from TBP for pointing out the author's hackneyed and nonsensical political garbage. Even TBP's most popular posters requested the stupid be dialed back for EP2, so that's telling.
The only good transhumanist game I've ever seen was Mindjammer.
Quote from: KingCheops;1057973Lol at Islam being more flexible than Catholicism. That's cute Mr. SJW have a cookie.
Wait, isn't Islam the religion that throws Gay men off rooftops and want to kill all Jews? That's more 'enlightened'??
The issue I have with Transhumanism is that it's the DESTINATION, not the driver of a plot/game. Cyberpunk is better because it's got built in conflict, but transhumanism doesn't seem to have any.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1058191Wait, isn't Islam the religion that throws Gay men off rooftops and want to kill all Jews? That's more 'enlightened'??
The issue I have with Transhumanism is that it's the DESTINATION, not the driver of a plot/game. Cyberpunk is better because it's got built in conflict, but transhumanism doesn't seem to have any.
Think of transhumanism as more a race or augment to a character. There might come some conflict from that. Or not. Depending on how prevalent and accepted bodymodding is.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1058191The issue I have with Transhumanism is that it's the DESTINATION, not the driver of a plot/game. Cyberpunk is better because it's got built in conflict, but transhumanism doesn't seem to have any.
This is exactly how he ruined Shadowrun. He focused on the Transhumanism which led to a lot of setting breaking issues when there is no reason for the society to not be a Singularity Utopia with No More Death but the setting was still trying to be described as Gritty Dystopian Cyberpunk.
Quote from: Omega;1058196Think of transhumanism as more a race or augment to a character. There might come some conflict from that. Or not. Depending on how prevalent and accepted bodymodding is.
Traditional conflicts of satisfying basic needs more or less goes away (and anywhere they crop up just feels like a cyberpunk part of the setting, ergo apostate enclaves in Nova Praxis).
The conflict goes more into one about advantage as organizations try to out maneuver each other and conflict about control. People can be very dangerous in a Transhumanist society. The powers that be have an active interest in keeping a tight leash on everyone else to prevent singularity like calamities or even more basic problems like a WMB being made in someone's living room fabricator.
The potential for everything to go straight to hell and for immortals to manage to kill themselves permanently is everywhere. It's a source of conflict, but also makes things hard to GM. Because society could spiral out into something beyond comprehension.
Quote from: Rhedyn;1058215The powers that be have an active interest in keeping a tight leash on everyone else to prevent singularity like calamities or even more basic problems like a WMB being made in someone's living room fabricator.
WMB? Typo or something else that a Google search failed me on?
Quote from: Rhedyn;1057956Then I got to the section on religions where the author states that Christianity and Judaism were too dogmatic to not fall apart with the existence of transhumanity, but Islam was more flexible/enlightened so it is still around.
There's a strong materialistic idea that souls=consciousness=mind="free will"=magic that EP (and some related sci-fi) revolves around with slogans like "your mind is software". With the Fall, most of the folks who rejected sleeving as dehumanizing were rendered forever dead, and most of those folks would likely be religious.
The problem is that the echo chamber the authors of EP were writing in couldn't distinguish between "religions" and "religious people". The idea that some Christians and Jews would be able to embrace uploading, and recognize that "digital immortality" wasn't really immortality like their faith preached and/or didn't truly remove an individual's desire for God, didn't seem to register with the authors. All they needed to do is make that distinction, and they solved 50% of the problem (but then they'd have yucky theists in their setting I guess). As for Islam... just say they had a cultural and scientific revival, with hardliner Muslims ending up like hardliner Christians and Jews; EP is supposed to be set in a future after our future after all.
Personally, I found EP to be a comical setting. A post-scarcity society that isn't post-scarcity, with as much handwavium as your average fantasy setting. And that's -after- you ignore the handwavium involved for sleeving in the first place.
I would recommend people interested in transhumanism to track down Lesser Shades of Evil, simply because it basically makes transhumanism look less like a miracle and more like a way to slowly drive a human mind insane.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1058218WMB? Typo or something else that a Google search failed me on?
Typo, I meant WMD
Quote from: san dee jota;1058221There's a strong materialistic idea that souls=consciousness=mind="free will"=magic that EP (and some related sci-fi) revolves around with slogans like "your mind is software". With the Fall, most of the folks who rejected sleeving as dehumanizing were rendered forever dead, and most of those folks would likely be religious.
The problem is that the echo chamber the authors of EP were writing in couldn't distinguish between "religions" and "religious people". The idea that some Christians and Jews would be able to embrace uploading, and recognize that "digital immortality" wasn't really immortality like their faith preached and/or didn't truly remove an individual's desire for God, didn't seem to register with the authors. All they needed to do is make that distinction, and they solved 50% of the problem (but then they'd have yucky theists in their setting I guess). As for Islam... just say they had a cultural and scientific revival, with hardliner Muslims ending up like hardliner Christians and Jews; EP is supposed to be set in a future after our future after all.
Personally, I found EP to be a comical setting. A post-scarcity society that isn't post-scarcity, with as much handwavium as your average fantasy setting. And that's -after- you ignore the handwavium involved for sleeving in the first place.
Individually, the stances are not something I have an issue with. It's both at the same time that just screams SJW nonsense.
I understand an author not understanding religion or something like Star Trek where they think we give it up. The author here is claiming particular understandings about religions he doesn't understand. This kind of claim can only come from a political extremist that will try to hold contradictory ideas together.
I also confess to being something of a pessimist and don't think we as a people will ever achieve 'transhumanism'. It'll likely end up cyberpunk whether or not we are trying for it.
Quote from: KingCheops;1057973Lol at Islam being more flexible than Catholicism. That's cute Mr. SJW have a cookie.
Agreed and seconded. One of the more intolerant religions is suddenly more "tolerant" in the future. Yet Catholicism while having some flaws is not. Given how none of the major relgious figures in scripture did not step foward to stop the AI from destroying Earth. Where afterlife and death becomes a joke. Most if not all major established religions would be having major to minor existential crises imo. Yet somehow Islam is flexible.
Quote from: sureshot;1058326Agreed and seconded. One of the more intolerant religions is suddenly more "tolerant" in the future. Yet Catholicism while having some flaws is not. Given how none of the major relgious figures in scripture did not step foward to stop the AI from destroying Earth. Where afterlife and death becomes a joke. Most if not all major established religions would be having major to minor existential crises imo. Yet somehow Islam is flexible.
Matthew 24:30-31 " Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will
gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
I always felt like the rapture would be gathering up space christians
Quote from: RPGPundit;1058168The only good transhumanist game I've ever seen was Mindjammer.
What's so good about MJ and what's bad about the rest?
I've been wanting to get into that genre but have no clue where to start.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1058359What's so good about MJ and what's bad about the rest?
I've been wanting to get into that genre but have no clue where to start.
I know of 4.
Eclipse Phase (own d100 system and FATE offerings)
Nova Praxis (Savage Worlds and Strands of FATE versions)
Transhuman Space (GURPS only I think?)
Mindjammer(FATE and Traveler I think?)
I was assuming Mindjammer had a d20 version, but maybe Traveler scratches enough osr niches to work.
The main issue with transhumanist RPGs is that they are complicated or in FATE.
Even Nova Praxis offers basically the most complicated version of Savage Worlds (even if it doesn't play as hard as Supers does).
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1058295I also confess to being something of a pessimist and don't think we as a people will ever achieve 'transhumanism'. It'll likely end up cyberpunk whether or not we are trying for it.
If bodymodding and biotech ever takes off what we will end up with is a biopunk setting like in the amazing Engine setting Chromosome, only more so. Or end up in a post apoc setting akin to d20m Gamma World which was transhumanism taken to just about its oft horriffic limits... Biopunk has the potential to way outpace cyberpunk on the misuse and abuse front.
D20m GW explored many aspects. Mind hacking, ideology wars where sides were literally force converting people, biomodding of all sorts both human and animal, rampant nanotech assisting in these endeavors, swappable/modular biotech, mind transfers that erase the host, hive mind biotech that turns everyone into a copy of the core, and have I mentioned the supplement that introduced the option to have a sexually transmitted PC recently? Yes. Well too bad! Here it is again because this was that fucked up of a setting. And more.
Eclipse Phase is a cool transhuman cyberpunk RPG if you rip out the entire plot and substitute your own. The mechanics are pretty nice, actually.
Quote from: Omega;1058374If bodymodding and biotech ever takes off what we will end up with is a biopunk setting like in the amazing Engine setting Chromosome, only more so. Or end up in a post apoc setting akin to d20m Gamma World which was transhumanism taken to just about its oft horriffic limits... Biopunk has the potential to way outpace cyberpunk on the misuse and abuse front.
D20m GW explored many aspects. Mind hacking, ideology wars where sides were literally force converting people, biomodding of all sorts both human and animal, rampant nanotech assisting in these endeavors, swappable/modular biotech, mind transfers that erase the host, hive mind biotech that turns everyone into a copy of the core, and have I mentioned the supplement that introduced the option to have a sexually transmitted PC recently? Yes. Well too bad! Here it is again because this was that fucked up of a setting. And more.
I couldn't agree more. When you consider people like Pixee Fox (removed six ribs to have world's tiniest waist), Eva Tiamat Medusa (ears and nose removed as part of dragon transformation), and others, it's clear that there are already a large number of people who are willing to modify their bodies in very extreme ways. If/when bio mods get added in, we are going to see some wild stuff.
Quote from: Omega;1058374D20m GW explored many aspects. Mind hacking, ideology wars where sides were literally force converting people, biomodding of all sorts both human and animal, rampant nanotech assisting in these endeavors, swappable/modular biotech, mind transfers that erase the host, hive mind biotech that turns everyone into a copy of the core, and have I mentioned the supplement that introduced the option to have a sexually transmitted PC recently? Yes. Well too bad! Here it is again because this was that fucked up of a setting. And more.
Was this the Arthaus/White Wolf version of Gamma World, because I don't remember it being half that cool.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1058359What's so good about MJ and what's bad about the rest?
I've been wanting to get into that genre but have no clue where to start.
I said it before, but I'll say it again: try tracking down Lesser Shades of Evil.
Basically, the premise is that you're a lowly peasant who seeks out angels (for whatever reason(s)), and end up becoming one. You can design a new body for yourself, and then another, and another, and run multiple bodies at the same time. And your role is being a kind of Old Testament sort of angel, watching over the mortals and enforcing the laws of God (who you have yet to meet). Except you soon realize (or it may have already happened, if you go by the book) that there's a civil war among the angels, and sides are being taken. And -then- you realize the angels are really just uplifted mortals using technology to literally play god with the world, and their civil war is a -literal- family feud being held by people who have gone insane with power and near-immortality.
There's neat stuff about "advanced technology looking like magic", memetic warfare and programming, rogue AIs wandering around, variant races of humanity, and so on. Most of it has actually been done by other games, but I found LSoE to be the only one to really hammer home the idea that maybe all of this tech isn't really good and what's being preserved isn't really human as we'd appreciate it anymore.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;1058480Eclipse Phase is a cool transhuman cyberpunk RPG if you rip out the entire plot and substitute your own. The mechanics are pretty nice, actually.
Could you give a quick rundown of the rules? I'm not a huge percentile fan (just Palladium) so it didn't really catch me. I thought Altered Carbon was cool as hell however so using this system to run that setting might be interesting.
Sorry if that is off topic.
Quote from: sureshot;1058326Agreed and seconded. One of the more intolerant religions is suddenly more "tolerant" in the future. Yet Catholicism while having some flaws is not. Given how none of the major relgious figures in scripture did not step foward to stop the AI from destroying Earth. Where afterlife and death becomes a joke. Most if not all major established religions would be having major to minor existential crises imo. Yet somehow Islam is flexible.
It's like the virtue-signalling SJW who wrote it doesn't know anything about Islam beyond "lots of brown people follow it". That's the only way I can make any sense of the fact that many "progressives" are simultaneously virulently opposed to Christianity and Judaism as regressive, repressive, conservative faiths, yet are "allies" of Muslims who are for the most part even more regressive, repressive and conservative.
The religious Right has nothing on the conservatism and literalism of relatively mainstream Muslim voices, never mind Islamists. Nor is Islam flexible at all, it's the "final truth" which isn't to be altered or re-interpreted.
Quote from: Kiero;1058546The religious Right has nothing on the conservatism and literalism of relatively mainstream Muslim voices, never mind Islamists. Nor is Islam flexible at all, it's the "final truth" which isn't to be altered or re-interpreted.
BTW this is why I believe Islam would have no trouble adapting to a transhumanist future with minimal shedding of adherents. It's basically a bunch of rules - IMO/IME the core of Islam is the fatwa*. I'm sure there will still be plenty of preachers willing to issue fatwas in the future.
Of course Christianity & Judaism would survive too, but I can see them, especially some forms of Christianity, shedding a larger proportion of followers in some crises of faith.
*My ex wife recounted with some delight how Tasleem, the Muslim secretary at her old job at a UK government quango, would seek fatwas on diet, garb etc from her - an atheist good ole girl from Knoxville Tenessee. Apparently one day when all the left-liberal types had put on hijab headscarves to show solidarity with Tasleem the oppressed Muslim, my ex had refused, despite pressure from the SJWs. This so impressed Tasleem with the obvious strength of my ex's moral convictions that Tasleem started turning to her for guidance...
Quote from: S'mon;1058553Of course Christianity & Judaism would survive too, but I can see them, especially some forms of Christianity, shedding a larger proportion of followers in some crises of faith.
Current demographics show Christian Church populations getting older, but not as small as they should be if they are just dying out.
There is some speculation that people flow back to the Church as they get older. If this is due to kids or their own mortality approaching, then you can expect a serious hit in faith activity just from that even if casual belief stays popular.
Christianity has various non-demanding denominations. People can believe 100% and not be very active or act differently.
Quote from: S'mon;1058553Of course Christianity & Judaism would survive too, but I can see them, especially some forms of Christianity, shedding a larger proportion of followers in some crises of faith.
A transhumanistic upload -might- be a "crisis of faith", but I figure as long as 1) people can die and 2) people don't know everything, they'll find some comfort in the idea of a higher power/afterlife/etc. It might be amusing to have lots of folks who are ancient, but still waiting for Christ's return because they had faith before they were uploaded and still believe. Meanwhile Christians and Muslims (unlike Jews) have a reason to convert people ("saving souls") which uploading wouldn't entirely replace; I can see Judaism dwindling until its adherents get desperate to preserve their faith beyond a (relative) few ancients, and start to actively seek converts/New Israels (in the plural)/etc. Or not.
And in the case of Eclipse Phase, you have a literal abandonment of Earth and near extinction level event (with continuing fears of extinction into the present setting). Given there's -some- data to support the idea that people are more likely to convert to religion in the face of disaster/suffering, religion is likely pretty strong after the Fall.
I like EP a lot. I was at GenCon when it released and got one of the 1st books they sold. I've played a handful of sessions and it runs better than it reads. Setting silliness I can always cut out and around to get what I want so the religion thing isn't a huge deal.
I was really interested in the 2nd edition they are working on as it looks to fix a few of the bigger flaws. However, they don't want me and my friends as fans of their game. Why? Because 'politics' of course.
The EP people made a very public virtue signal (http://eclipsephase.com/regarding-mras) on their forums several years ago.
QuoteWe believe we live in a world where patriarchy and male privilege are real, ongoing problems, and equality for all people, regardless of sex, is a worthy goal.
QuoteAs a group, we at Posthuman find the politics of MRAs to be toxic, offensive, and completely removed from reality.
QuoteHere's our stance: If you self-define as an MRA, please fire yourself as an Eclipse Phase fan. We don't want you. We want our forums to be open and inclusive, and we don't see the point of debating with you anymore. You have other places on the internet where you can wallow in the awfulness of your male privilege.
Sure, some MRA groups can be an issue, just like some feminist groups are toxic, but they aren't interested in distinctions. So, because I want men, as well as women, to have their issues and rights addressed so we can reach that all elusive goal of equality I'm not welcome. Why would I stick around someplace I'm not welcome? I didn't.
Quote from: rgalex;1058660I like EP a lot. I was at GenCon when it released and got one of the 1st books they sold. I've played a handful of sessions and it runs better than it reads. Setting silliness I can always cut out and around to get what I want so the religion thing isn't a huge deal.
I was really interested in the 2nd edition they are working on as it looks to fix a few of the bigger flaws. However, they don't want me and my friends as fans of their game. Why? Because 'politics' of course.
The EP people made a very public virtue signal (http://eclipsephase.com/regarding-mras) on their forums several years ago.
Sure, some MRA groups can be an issue, just like some feminist groups are toxic, but they aren't interested in distinctions. So, because I want men, as well as women, to have their issues and rights addressed so we can reach that all elusive goal of equality I'm not welcome. Why would I stick around someplace I'm not welcome? I didn't.
See, I wasn't looking at it for the system. I was looking at it for ideas. I wanted to be an EP fan, but EP doesn't make sense. They broke immersion for politics. I'm less concerned with their politics than I am that it fills their work full of holes.
I wish they had more mature adults on staff.
"We believe we live in a world where murderers and murdering are real, ongoing problems, and safety for all people, regardless of sex, is a worthy goal.
As a group, we at Posthuman find the actions of murderers to be toxic, offensive, and completely removed from reality.
Here's our stance: If you self-define as an murderer, please fire yourself as an Eclipse Phase fan. We don't want you. We want our forums to be open and inclusive, and we don't see the point of debating with you anymore. You have other places on the internet where you can wallow in the awfulness of your murdering."
If your response to this was "duh, who likes those people", congrats! You can spot virtue signaling. If you find yourself asking "why would someone feel the need to state something so obvious", congrats! You've just discovered the wonderful world of identity politics as expressed by the people who make your games.
Ultimately, I find it cute that nobody is talking about how this is just a form of self-righteous marketing. It's real easy to say "I'm against sexism" or "I'm against autocratic German political parties", and it's real easy to think "I'm supporting a good guy by buying this game I was going to pick up anyway." But it's just a marketing gimmick*. Of course, that way leads to paranoia and zealotry and meaninglessness; how do you know that other publisher is a "good guy" unless they too tell you their stance on extreme male sexism. Meanwhile, all this in the hopes of making a few extra dollars. And by few, I'm literally talking in the dozens range. If you're lucky. Because a good game is a good game, and good games transcend fears of supporting closeted pedophile authors and rapists, and can be forgiven any stupid excess (I'm looking at you Exalted).
(*there are also true-believers of course, but they're still marketing.)
Mindjammer doesn't have any of this nonsense. It's written as really interesting technological/social scifi, not as pretentious sophomoric 'edgy' political scifi.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1058903Mindjammer doesn't have any of this nonsense. It's written as really interesting technological/social scifi, not as pretentious sophomoric 'edgy' political scifi.
What part of Nova Praxis is 'edgy' political sci-fi or are you only ragging on Eclipse Phase?
Quote from: Rhedyn;1058919What part of Nova Praxis is 'edgy' political sci-fi or are you only ragging on Eclipse Phase?
Eclipse Phase. I haven't looked at Nova Praxis, so you'd have to tell me.
I will be very curious to see what the future of Eclipse Phase will be now that one of the Posthuman Studio partners is leaving the project--apparently acrimoneously.
http://eclipsephase.com/jake-carter-signing-out
Quote from: JRT;1059734I will be very curious to see what the future of Eclipse Phase will be now that one of the Posthuman Studio partners is leaving the project--apparently acrimoneously.
http://eclipsephase.com/jake-carter-signing-out
So, Rob cheated him out of a profit share? Because when I see "legal non-disclosure" my mind thinks less "I don't like these things that were said" and more "there's actual money involved".
Quote from: san dee jota;1059736So, Rob cheated him out of a profit share? Because when I see "legal non-disclosure" my mind thinks less "I don't like these things that were said" and more "there's actual money involved".
Well, at least we didn't jump to Rob molesting his children while he was out.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1059705Eclipse Phase. I haven't looked at Nova Praxis, so you'd have to tell me.
The only "edgy" parts I've seen is all sides have reasonable elements and society at large has mostly transitioned to money-less economies (though not quite socialist depending on which socialist you ask).
In the current political climate of "One side is Evil and Wrong" that could be considered edgy.
Eclipse Phase sort of assumes that people eventually win over the megacorps. In Nova Praxis, that hasn't happened yet and might not happen. Eclipse Phase starts off with every human being in a sleeve. In Nova Praxis there is resistance to the idea of sleeving and it isn't portrayed as an absolute evil. Eclipse Phase has strong opinions about what religions can even fathom transhumanism while Nova Praxis dares to claim that some theologians may reconceptualize the concept of the soul to make room for Sleeved people in their faith and doesn't make any strong claims that certain religions of died-off or couldn't adapt.
I guess there is a mildly "edgy" side story in Nova Praxis where someone gets a new cross-gender sleeve and their religious parents are concern that they are not even the same person anymore on top of general discomfort with a gender-swap of their child.
Something "edgy" for Sci-fi is that the super AI didn't kill all humans. It just turned off and Earth was destroyed by a human driven Grey Goo incident.
Something to add, Gizmodo had a story on how Christianity, Judaism and Islam would handle space travel, new worlds and discovering aliens. Evangelicals didn't do so well, but all other Christians and the others looked to be able to weather it pretty well. So I expect the same to handle transhumanism with not too, too many bumps.
Quote from: Rhedyn;1059786Eclipse Phase sort of assumes that people eventually win over the megacorps.
Not really. The Hypercorps control Mars (where the largest portion of the population lives), and both Luna (and surrounding habs) along with Venus are fairly compatible with Hypercorp culture. Likewise, the Jovians have their hyper-conservative take on what is essentially part of that same club. The other side of the fence--the anarchists and friends--all exist on the fringes of the setting (Scum Fleets, Belters, Outer-System weirdos) and on Titan. The issue isn't that the megacorps are going to lose, it's that they are definitely painted as the bad guys of the setting while the Space Antifa are paraded as true heroes and The Only Ones That Can Save Humanity (through the Argonauts and Firewall).
Quote from: HappyDaze;1059806Not really. The Hypercorps control Mars (where the largest portion of the population lives), and both Luna (and surrounding habs) along with Venus are fairly compatible with Hypercorp culture. Likewise, the Jovians have their hyper-conservative take on what is essentially part of that same club. The other side of the fence--the anarchists and friends--all exist on the fringes of the setting (Scum Fleets, Belters, Outer-System weirdos) and on Titan. The issue isn't that the megacorps are going to lose, it's that they are definitely painted as the bad guys of the setting while the Space Antifa are paraded as true heroes and The Only Ones That Can Save Humanity (through the Argonauts and Firewall).
Yeah but Nova Praxis megacorps still have compilers locked down, while Eclipse Phase revolutionaries already found a hack.
With the way EP sets it up, the corps are already starting to lose control.
Quote from: Rhedyn;1059809With the way EP sets it up, the corps are already starting to lose control.
Over a tiny portion of the population. They can control access to their areas of the solar system (extra-solar colonies are a special case), and they can control nano-fabricators in those areas. Smuggling is nigh-impossible the way they've set things up. So yes, the Anarchists may slowly grow and thrive, but they're not really much of a threat.
Quote from: Rhedyn;1059786The only "edgy" parts I've seen is all sides have reasonable elements and society at large has mostly transitioned to money-less economies (though not quite socialist depending on which socialist you ask).
In the current political climate of "One side is Evil and Wrong" that could be considered edgy.
In a Transhumanist setting there shouldn't really be anything resembling an economy in any standard sense. The idea that 'in a post-scarcity future everyone would be socialist' is absolutely ridiculous, just as ridiculous as "in a post-scarcity economy everyone would still use money".
Quote from: RPGPundit;1060238In a Transhumanist setting there shouldn't really be anything resembling an economy in any standard sense. The idea that 'in a post-scarcity future everyone would be socialist' is absolutely ridiculous, just as ridiculous as "in a post-scarcity economy everyone would still use money".
and here I think socialism (as communism) could only work in a post scarcity economy.
I only classify the NP universe of majority socialist because any citizen can not work and still have most of their needs and wants provided for them.
Quote from: Rhedyn;1060269and here I think socialism (as communism) could only work in a post scarcity economy.
I only classify the NP universe of majority socialist because any citizen can not work and still have most of their needs and wants provided for them.
That's not socialism, though. Socialism assumes the abolition of personal property.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1060807That's not socialism, though. Socialism assumes the abolition of personal property.
*Let me check with my comically communist friend.
He says it's the abolition of Private Property not personal property where property is being used as a synonym for commodity.
Oh boy and where, "private property (for all intents and purposes) is just land and equipment used to produce a commodity."
In that sense Nova Praxis is socialist in that the fabricators are not owned privately, but is not socialist because the megacorps/government owns them and that government does not meet most socialist definitions.
The Rep economy is a very different than a normal economy. Under a normal economy those who gather the raw resources and those who own the fabricators would be super wealthy and all society would revolve around serving them (or pleasing them with art). Under a Rep economy, your wealth is determined by how society as a whole values you, which could do a decent job at curbing the abuses of the wealthy because if everyone hates you, you become "poor" and not respected. Nova Praxis covers most of the edge cases and philosophical break downs with, "and lots of advance AI monitor this process to prevent abuses".
What the Rep economy is not is a true post scarcity socialist utopia, the Rep economy in Nova Praxis is for a near-post scarcity society. There is enough for everyone, within reason. Everyone can't have fleets of Dreadnoughts, but everyone can afford all the food they can eat, immortality, all the entertainment they can consume, and lavish homes with luxuries beyond imagining all without doing any labor.
I don't know enough about the game to respond.
Quote from: Rhedyn;1058365I know of 4.
Eclipse Phase (own d100 system and FATE offerings)
Nova Praxis (Savage Worlds and Strands of FATE versions)
Transhuman Space (GURPS only I think?)
Mindjammer(FATE and Traveler I think?)
I'm not sure I would quite equate Blue Planet (1e Biohazard Games 1997, 2e Fantasy Flight Games in 2000) with more-current transhuman RPGs, but I think that at least building blocks are there, and it is named as a strong influence on EP. (And WRT religions surviving into the future, we actively included religious NPCs and organizations in BP1e---although it was a much-nearer future than EP postulates).
Coriolis seems to orbit around similar themes, but again, not quite as deeply as EP or Transhuman Space.
Allan.
There's really just four? I get the feeling we might be missing one?
Quote from: grodog;1061629I'm not sure I would quite equate Blue Planet (1e Biohazard Games 1997, 2e Fantasy Flight Games in 2000) with more-current transhuman RPGs, but I think that at least building blocks are there, and it is named as a strong influence on EP. (And WRT religions surviving into the future, we actively included religious NPCs and organizations in BP1e---although it was a much-nearer future than EP postulates).
Coriolis seems to orbit around similar themes, but again, not quite as deeply as EP or Transhuman Space.
Allan.
I wouldn't list Coriolis as trans-humanist at all. It's more like Fading Suns meets 1001 Arabian Nights.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1061874There's really just four? I get the feeling we might be missing one?
Shadows Over Sol has the Beyond Human sourcebook that pushes it more firmly into transhuman territory.
That one's not familiar to me. I just get the sense there's one in that list I did know of but I'm missing.
Stars Without Number had a free Transhuman supplement for first edition, and gives full on rules for it in the 2nd edition deluxe.
The setting for it is a sectioned off part of the galaxy with strange dimensional energy which prevents drilling out of the sector, but also provides an energy source for all the nanotechnology fabricators and sleaving.
My biggest problem with Mindjammer is "The Commonality of Humankind" being the de-facto protagonists of the setting. As a totalitarian regime, I find it works far better if you set your game on the fringes of known space and make the Commonality the aggressors to be fought against. Which is to say I basically turn it into straight-up space opera. That is obviously just one way to play the game, but I personally just can't get into the setting any other way.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1061874There's really just four? I get the feeling we might be missing one?
Well... Polaris lays some claims to Transhuman, but I'd say that's pretty shaky.
Quote from: Spike;1062737Well... Polaris lays some claims to Transhuman, but I'd say that's pretty shaky.
Polaris is totally not post-scarcity, totally not post-anything really. It's very much a gritty cyberpunk setting under the sea (sing it!) with a small subset of people having weird powers.
The emphasis on post-scarcity as part of Transhumanism seems like a late addition to the genre to me, but I'm going off what the game itself says its themes are. You are right that it does feel more cyberpunk than transhuman, though I should emphasize that the ability to play people evolved to their environment (the various versions of 'under-the-sea' people) does push the transhuman angle versus the Cyberpunk.
Of course, the whole game is a beautiful mess with an incomplete setting, so who knows?
Quote from: Spike;1062874The emphasis on post-scarcity as part of Transhumanism seems like a late addition to the genre to me, but I'm going off what the game itself says its themes are. You are right that it does feel more cyberpunk than transhuman, though I should emphasize that the ability to play people evolved to their environment (the various versions of 'under-the-sea' people) does push the transhuman angle versus the Cyberpunk.
Of course, the whole game is a beautiful mess with an incomplete setting, so who knows?
I think post scarcity gets lumped into Transhumanism because Transhumanism comes from taking current technology and understanding of science to it's logical extreme.
Sci-fi genres evolve with our current technology. Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers didn't have nanofabricators to create endless waves of ships and robot armies to solve all their problems. Even the idea of the modern computer was considered an extremely Sci-fi concept and modern GUIs were just unthinkable.
Now we are starting to get the idea of just how radically humans can be altered and how scalable and autonomous production can, we are beginning to see Transhumanism become the default understanding of Sci-fi.
At some point these ideas will seem quaint and retro. We can only hope they do so because advancement makes them seem old, not that more knowledge makes them seem impossible.
Personally I find Transhumanism far sillier than Armageddon 2419.
Quote from: S'mon;1062942Personally I find Transhumanism far sillier than Armageddon 2419.
Well eclipse phase is kind of nonsense social politics.
And every-time I hear someone start analogizing for "problematic" elements in Flash Gordon, I worry for people's sanity.
I wonder if Blue Planet is the 4th game everybody's trying to think off.
Quote from: SavageSchemer;1062678My biggest problem with Mindjammer is "The Commonality of Humankind" being the de-facto protagonists of the setting. As a totalitarian regime, I find it works far better if you set your game on the fringes of known space and make the Commonality the aggressors to be fought against. Which is to say I basically turn it into straight-up space opera. That is obviously just one way to play the game, but I personally just can't get into the setting any other way.
In the earlier editions of Mindjammer, I loved that the Commonality was basically good. It seemed like a bold turn from the standard dystopia and moral-relativism that has become so popular in decadent literature.
In the latest edition, the Commonality has become far less clean-cut, however. I find that kind of unfortunate.