TheRPGSite

Okay, let's try this out...
I'm NWoD curious... I've yet to play... and I've got questions.

NO RW POLITICS... keep it in your pants!
(Doc Sammy might as well stay away)

So, I've been reading through some of the NWoD books and hit upon Geist.
Geist seems like a cool idea, and rubs up against another current interest of mine, which is fantasy shamans.
But from what I've read, 1st edition Geist (2009) was laden with issues because it was a bit rushed and unformed... an RPG preemie as it were.
There was apparently a 'fix' in the form of some errata and a 1.1 edition in 2012... which still had a bit of a soft-skull.

So now there is 2nd edition Geist (2019), which folks seem to be liking.

It seems to be by White Wolf, not Onyx Path (I'm still unclear on all the permutations of the WoD games).

So my question is, if anyone here knows whether 2nd edition Geist is running on NWoD core rules (the blue book) which I think I like, or is it CoD using the rules presented in The God Machine... which I am NOT that fond of.
Like, depending on how much difference there is I might as well buy the newest one, avoid the troubles of the earlier editions... but if it's different base rules and a whole different slant (I know that Thresholds were changed to... something else that actually made more sense).

Can anyone clarify what '2nd edition' means in this case and for other NWoD titles, like Promethean?

Thanks!

If it is 2.0 it most likely uses CoD rules.

Do you think the alterations to the system made by God Machine rules can be easily expurgated from materials that came later? Could a 2nd edition NWoD book be used with the prior corebook without a whole lot of reworking?

Yeah further reading this it is clearly under CoD rules.  Here is the link to the kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/geist-the-sin-eaters-2nd-edition).

Quote from: Simlasa;1106515Do you think the alterations to the system made by God Machine rules can be easily expurgated from materials that came later? Could a 2nd edition NWoD book be used with the prior corebook without a whole lot of reworking?

No.  You are honestly fucked my friend.  Which is a shame because Geist is pretty damn good game once you get passed on all the flaws of the mechanics because some one had to rush it.  I honestly view it as the polar opposite of Changeling the Lost where it is very bleak in appearance, but really happy in truth.  Meanwhile changeling looks like a colorful place of unlimited joy, but the truth of it all is very bleak.  If they stuck with that angle it may have sold better.

So, best to go with 1st edition Geist and its errata?

Any clue on what changes to setting Promethean might have gotten 2nd time around?

Without getting political because you wanted that.  More CoD mechanics that you cannot easily remove.  Your just better off going nWoD and avoiding CoD.  It has everything you want and easier to understand mechanics that allow for streamline play.  Plus it should be cheaper now to get those books.

One of my players was verrrry into all the WOD stuff and played for years in the local LARP.

They were not impressed at all with the new material and the new-new material even less.

I'm also WoD curious, never played, have CtL 1e, VtR 1e and the blue book. Is there a TL;DR on the CoD differences? Probably I expect, but pressed for time. I like the nWoD stuff and I heard rumblings of things like 'beats' and stuff from later versions. WoD/nWoD/CoD/V5/etc is all a bit confusing (I think I said that elsewhere though).

EDIT: Beats, tilts, conditions, integrity not morality (because good people do bad things too). My head is spinning.

Quote from: Simlasa;1106507Okay, let's try this out...
(Doc Sammy might as well stay away)

You can't tell me what to do!

Seriously though, I'd just stick with 1E. Avoid anything from 2E like the plague, given the convoluted mechanical changes in that edition.

That I will add that nWoD doesn't focus on real world politics unlike CoD.  Just saying you won't get any gamergate are evil people in Promethean 1E unlike say Beast: The Primordial.  So if you want to avoid politics completely go 1E.

I really like most of the CoD stuff - though I think Beast and Mummy make more sense as antagonists. However, the system is super crunchy and heavy on the GM.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1106628That I will add that nWoD doesn't focus on real world politics unlike CoD.  Just saying you won't get any gamergate are evil people in Promethean 1E unlike say Beast: The Primordial.  So if you want to avoid politics completely go 1E.

That I can confirm. All the 1e Vamp, Wraith, Mage, Mummy books I have were very political free. But then WW came on the scene just as the counter PC movement was picking up pace in the 90s. They made a business out of being about as anti-PC as you can get away with and still be allowed on store shelves. And one or two, or more books went a lil too far and were refused here and there due to the adult content.

They also seemed to have a semi-cohesive blanket concept going on with the various settings. How much of that, if any, does N or N+ WOD retain? Both in background overlap between say Werewolf and Vampire, and system overlap?

As far as I am concern there are three world of darknesses.  There is cWoD which is short of Classic World of Darkness which has you vampire, werewolf, mage, wraith, and so on.  Then 2004 rolled around to bring us nWoD which had its vampire, werewolf, mage, promethean, and so on.  Finally we have CoD which has vampire, werewolf, mage, demon, beast, and so on.  I am saying is get cWoD, but avoid any 5th edition as Paradox doesn't even know what to do with them.  I am also saying avoid CoD because Onyx Path cannot help themselves.  What you want is pre V5 cWoD and nWoD.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1106649What you want is pre V5 cWoD and nWoD.

OK, that had been my inclination so far.
I already had a pile of cWoD that I inherited from someone. One of those things I've got nostalgia for despite never having played... an imaginary version of what OWoD might have been like (but NOT like the nonsense I saw in the cafes at the time... silly thespians!).

I still trying to understand what the actual **** happen in Werewolf: The Forsaken 2nd? I just wanted no crap Garou form and less shit Gifts, but got a full rewritten...

Quote from: DarcyDettmann;1106687I still trying to understand what the actual **** happen in Werewolf: The Forsaken 2nd? I just wanted no crap Garou form and less shit Gifts, but got a full rewritten...

Lets not forget that Father Wolf is now Mother Wolf and Luna has dick with two balls now.  Never understood why the ancient mythological beings needed a sex change, or why Iron Masters need to hunt down humans.  It is all fucked up.

No clue who wrote this but here is a hilarious parody summation.

QuoteSo, let me see here... I'm not even sure where to begin... I'm not even sure I got the order straight.... Please correct any inaccuracies.

It all starts with the Gangrel leaving the Camarilla, because Xavier found out the truth about the antediluvians. So he's like, "Hey, you bastards, you're vampires, you're not suppose to lie. Now I know the truth, and I'm gonna tell Mulder." Since he's so noble and gullible enough to actually believe what all the other elders have been saying all these centuries, Xavier walks away sobbing, cuz his fellow vampires have betrayed him. Most of the other Gangrel leave, too, cuz, you know, Xavier said so.

But you can still play a Gangrel. You're just on your own, and your life pretty much sucks.

Then a big red star shows up in the sky, that only the supernaturals can see, and everyone goes, "uh-oh", but no one can figure out which game line it affects.

"Is that the eye of the Wyrm?"

"I dunno."

"How 'bout the first sign of the Final Nights?"

"I dunno."

Only a lone pooka discovers the truth: "Watch out, it's a cross-over metaplot coming!" But he's killed before he can reveal anything to the unsuspecting world.

Then a bunch of randy vampires start showing up, some even able to survive the day, and the vampire community is sent into a tizzy.

"You mean, this is the first time we've ever had 14th or 15th generation vampires? No one's ever done this thing before? The Tremere didn't even experiment?"

"Nope. See. The red star. It's all in the red star. Nothing can happen before the red star."

"Well, that sucks. What should we do?"

"Well, we do what we always do. Whenever something shows up we don't understand, we interpret it as the first sign of Gehenna and kill it."

"I thought the return of Aerosmith was the first sign?"

"Well then, the second sign."

While down in Mexico, a bunch of Sabbat Tremere antitribu are invited to this big piñata party being hosted by Tremere/Goratrix/Saulot, or whoever ~ it's a party, who cares! From all over the world, the Tremere antitribu show up, most likely summoned with mondo Presence, and also because they've never been known to miss a party, especially with the promise of free Cuervo.

Only one Tremere antitribu is suspicious enough to wonder, "Why are we all here?"

Another Tremere antitribu says, "Probably so we can all get killed."

And they both have a good laugh, cuz they know how contrary that is to vampire beliefs. Elders killing off their offspring? Get outta here! Besides, being Sabbat, they're ready for any antediluvian nonsense anyway. So, everyone's having a rocking good time, dancing to some Prince tunes, maybe a slow song or two for the lovers out there, and then the host suddenly decides to up and kill everyone. Talk about a party killer. Just because someone forgot the salsa! And as he's disintegrating into ash, the lone suspicious Tremere antitribu says, "Dammit! I knew that red star meant something!"

But you can still play a Tremere antitribu. You're just on your own, and your life pretty much sucks.

Then out of nowhere, the Kuei-jin start showing up, having this sophisticated society no one noticed until now. And boy are they pissed. Look at what these Westerners have done to Hong Kong and Tokyo ~ help to raise their economies, raise everyone's standard of living, and now even the lowliest peasant can eat by buying a happy meal at McDonalds.

"Those bastards!" they all cry, "We must have vengeance."

So some of the cool Chow Yun Fat-looking Kuei-jin ~ never once taking off their sunglasses ~ head out to California, and in a short period of time, manage to dismantle the entire Anarch Free States. No one can figure out how, though ~ not even the elders of the Blood Court or the Camarilla. The anarchs are even more confused, because each fight they got into, always the same thing seemed to happen. The Kuei-jin would start to do some dance, and say she was using Superdooper Shintai 4: Thrashing the Tongue of the Immortal Serpent.

And then the Kuei-jin would stop and say, "Wait, does that cost Yin Chi or Yang Chi? What do I roll again? Do I need to make a P'o roll? And what does it exactly do again?"

The fight between the anarchs and the Kuei-jin comes to a grinding halt, as all the Kuei-jin pull out their rule books, and start looking up their powers. The anarchs don't stomp on them during that moment, cuz they all are known for fighting fair.

Sometime during this whole mess, almost all of the Stargazers leave the Garou Nation, mainly to help out their brothers in the Beast Courts back home (who are just having the hardest time of it, the tea ceremonies and all), and mainly because they are sick of being asked, "What country are you from?" and "Do you speak English?" by all the other Garou. The other Garou are happy to see them go.

"They were a stupid tribe to begin with!"

The only people that seem to miss them are the munchkins who played Stargazers with Kalindo 5.

But you can still play a Stargazer. You're just on your own, and your life pretty much sucks.

Then, out there in India, Bangladesh, or Pakistan ~ somewhere that Americans don't have to deal with the consequences ~ the Ravnos antediluvian pops up, and the first thing he wants to do is get into a massive kung-fu fight. Three bad-ass Kuei-jin show up to avenge the death of their masters, I think, or just to show off their Dragon-Tiger-Crane Style kung-fu. The Ravnos ante previously sent a summons out to all the Ravnos in the world to join him in this WWF no-holds-barred title match, cuz, dammit, he's an antediluvian and he wants that belt! Ravnos start showing up, and no one suddenly notices all the pale bloodsuckers on the airplanes, or the fact that their wallets are missing.

Only one Ravnos is suspicious enough to wonder, "Why are we all here?"

Another Ravnos says, "Probably so we can all get killed."

And they both have a good laugh, cuz they know how contrary that is to vampire beliefs.

Then, the Technocracy ~ those masters of logic, deductive reasoning, technology, and Dr. Strangelove type thinking ~ decides to nuke the site of the battle from orbit. Just in case. Killing or radiating millions of innocent, non-American, non-European people, effectively destroying a vampire clan, and the three kung-fu bad-asses.

And the whole world goes, eh, so what.

A nuke went off in an area known for being a hotbed of war tension, but no one really says or does anything. Afterall, it was just a nuke ~ jeez, it's not like it was the first time a nuke has been set off in the world. After the fall-out, Kuei-jin wonder if they should have sent Jackie Chan instead, and the Ravnos have been stomped into a bloodline like those silly opera singers.

But you can still play a Ravnos. You're just on your own, and your life pretty much sucks.

Somehow, during this whole mess, the Rom from the World of Darkness: Gypsies book don't get involved, even though the book is being reprinted. Maybe it was because the book got such harsh criticism that it forced White Wolf to shelve World of Darkness: Whitey and World of Darkness: Negro and World of Darkness: Heathen Chinee ~ but all the Gypsies were pretty much kept out of the fray.

But the Ravnos antediluvian is not the only one to have appeared. The Tzimisce ~ you know, the guys who always pronounce their names with a lisp ~ ante is now underneath New York City, mainly because he's always wanted to see Cats live and on stage. He's still waiting for a show that isn't sold out. And in Russia, Baba Yaga dies at the hand of bigger bad-ass vampire, and all the Garou in Russia go, "Damn that was easy. Why did we even bother to fight? All we had to do was wait."

And the Assamites are having a time of it, because they are no longer cursed, but their risen Methuselah super-badass wants them to go out and kill even MORE people. What is an Assamite suppose to do? At least, Ur-Shulgi didn't invite them to a party.

The Technocracy aren't the only nuke happy bunch. In the Underworld, wraiths are basically having ectoplasmic orgasms with all the bombs they found. They decide to use it on the vampire city of Enoch, for no real reason, except they just hate those bloodsuckers, and because lots of people didn't like the Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand book. Someone points out to the Smiling Lord (I think) that the last great Maelstrom was caused by a nuke, and it nearly destroyed the underworld.

The Smiling Lord (I think) says, "So? And what's your point?"

Charon doesn't get involved because he's mortal now. Apparently they could never get cable down in Stygia, and he's been missing all his Buffy episodes. Besides, he finally gets to eat pizza that doesn't scream at him as he bites into it. Oh, yeah, nearly forgot, the Jade Empire decides to attack Stygia, because heck, the Kuei-jin are doing it, why not them? Nukes go off and boom goes the most of the Underworld. Stygia and several necropoli are destroyed, and there's no longer a civilization for most Wraiths.

But you can still play a Wraith. You're just on your own, and your life pretty much sucks.

While in the Mage world, everything also blows up. Basically almost every supplement written before Mage Rev has essentially been destroyed and made irrelevant to the current metaplot. Chantries, Horizon, the Digital Web, Book of Barriers ~ all wave bye-bye. Now Mage can have more of that gritty Matrix feel. However, there is significant net criticism from the Holy Blood Cult of Brucato that they don't like this new Matrix feel, and they wish they had taken the other pill instead. In the new book, the Technocracy discovers that humans are mostly apathetic. Duh, a nuke went off in India, and no one even batted an eyelid. The Eastern Technocracy is known as the Zaibatsu (?), and they have different goals from the regular Technocracy ~ and they figure if this Technocracy gig doesn't work out, Zaibatsu would make a great name for a new car company. Even though the Ascension War is over (a war that no one to this day still fully understands), everyone's still shooting each other. The Technocracy has won, but that's mostly because the Traditions were still trying to figure out what was vulgar and what was vulgar w/o witnesses and what was coincidental. The last Mage who brought up the whiskey flask example was drawn and quartered several years back.

But you can still play a Mage. You're just on your own, and your life pretty much sucks.

In Changeling, High King David suddenly ups and disappears, which is the first time this plot point has ever occurred in a White Wolf book (except maybe with Charon, or Dante, or Caine, or Saulot). Everyone's now at war with one another, and all the pookas can do is wonder why every one is so damn serious all of a sudden. Once upon a time, the worst enemy was the schoolteacher. Maybe the Fae have been itchin' to get into a major confrontation for a long time now, ever since they didn't have to use those damn cards anymore. So a war is going on, with people waving fake swords around and saying "forsooth" a lot, and no one really pays attention.

As a result of the destruction of the Underworld, wraiths and spectres are forced out into the mortal world, where they haunt people more, or where they become zombies, or where they just leave the toilet seat up ~ just being nuisances all around. A chosen few known as the Imbued ~ not because of alcohol intake, but because they couldn't figure out another cooler sounding name, since all the other game lines had taken the best ones ~ they start to notice all the supernaturals around them. Upon doing so, they get neato powers, too, so they can kill these monsters. But they must also choose one overwhelming philosophy, called a Creed, that dictates what they think of supernatural creatures. The Do-I-Try-To-Heal-Them Creed, the Kill-Em-All Creed, or the Protect-Humanity Creed. For some reason, there's no Oh-Shit-I-Run-Like-Hell Creed. There's no mixing and matching, you pretty much view all the supernaturals the same. The old hunters in Hunters Hunted are just normal humans, even more normal than these hunters with powers, so they must suck.

But you can still play an old Hunters Hunted character. You're just on your own, and your life pretty much sucks.

And as a result, culmination, whatever, of all these preceding events, Osiris finally gets his lazy ass out of bed, just in time for the Ghost Storm to hit the Egyptian underworld. He protects some mummies, while the rest get shredded to bits. The few mummies that survive in the mortal world end up getting weaker. Osiris goes, "Well, that sucks", and distributes a new spell of life to all those cults that have been waiting for his return all these thousands of years. They make brand new, fresh off the lot mummies, and the assembly lines can't move fast enough to meet the demand. Since the cultists don't have an emergency pull chord like those guys who work for Saturn, some of these mummies are a little, uh, off. All new mummies have to take these occasional doctoral exams in front of the Big Bad Mummy Committee to see if they can get more buff. Osiris is the harshest judge, saying things like, "Is that your final answer?" No new mummies can use a life-line or call a friend.

But you can still play one of the original Mummy characters. You're just on your own, and your life pretty much sucks.

So now, when you're walking down the streets of the World of Darkness, and you meet some guy in a black trenchcoat, with long hair in a ponytail, in dark sunglasses, and holding a katana, you can ask: "What are you? A vampire?"

"Nope."

"A mage?"

"Nope."

"A hunter?"

"Nope. Keep trying, you'll get there."

"Are you from the Net Highlander supplement?"

"Nope."

"A gamer with an inferiority complex, social problems, and some deep-seated aggressive feelings?"

"Nope."

"Then what are you?"

"I'm a Mummy."

"Uh. Yeah. You're kidding, right?"

"Mummies never kid! Die, agent of that big evil snake thingee that I can't quite pronounce!"

And btw, Xavier never got hold of Mulder. Some guy named Doggett was there.

I think the lore and rules is a mess so I'm currently brainstorming my own version. The setting will be more agnostic, the splats more diverse, and universal rules will be used for creating superpowers. The tone will be parodic and satirical.

Let me know if anybody is interested in hearing more.

Okay, I'm going to take the silence as acceptance.

I'm currently using the retroclone rules from Opening the Dark as my basis, but the rules are largely hypothetical at this point.

Lots of people tell me that WoD is the most popular/best urban fantasy game. Fuck that noise. I'm not going to let brainwashed sycophants tell me to shove my square peg into a round hole.

Anyway, vampires are first on the list. In my pitch, there's a hypothetically infinite number of vampire bloodlines and they're infinitely diverse. You can basically play any vampire you ever saw in fiction or make up your own. The lost boys, Buffy vamps, nosferatus, draculas, living, undead, astral, half-vampire, whatever. You can feed on emotion, memories, flesh, sanity, or anything else that composes a person.

Here are a few examples, converted from the first seven vampire clans in white wolf's vampire:

Lordly vampires: these vamps are your Dracula stereotypes. They specialize in mind control, including animals and even technopathy. Their weaknesses are generally psychological in nature, such as counting, not entering private residences uninvited, or preferring specific flavors of blood.

Romantic vampires: these vamps are your Lestat stereotypes. They feed on sex, but plenty enjoy blood anyway. Their weaknesses generally revolve around obsessions, such as with collecting beautiful things or attraction to specific individuals.

Bestial vampires: these vamps are your b-movie stereotypes. They have the power of 80s and 90s practical SFX. Their weaknesses generally revolve around being far closer to their instincts. They can eat meat, preferably long pork.

Crazy vampires: these vamps are based on that Nicholas Cage movie. They feed on sanity like that one villain in Buffy. Their weakness is that they are comic relief.

Punk vampires: these vamps are your Lost Boys stereotypes. Their weakness is a crippling nostalgia for the 80s and other time periods before now.

Ugly vampires: these are your nosferatus. They got hit with the ugly stick. The have powers over plague, pestilence, fear, nightmares, German expressionist SFX, etc.

Wizard vampires: these vamps are obsessed with Harry Potter and learn magic instead of typical vampire powers.

I know these aren't very detailed, but I'm on a tight schedule at the moment.

The werewolves in my pitch are more diverse than your hereditary eco-terrorists/vice cops.

You can build Dresden Files-style lupine theriomorphs. You can emulate ferals from WitchCraft, manitou or wer from Everlasting, whatever from GURPS Shapeshifters, even Lunars from Exalted.

You can choose whatever cosmic goal for your werewolf character, if any.

On another note, I would be extremely relieved if Paradox canceled the PnP game at some point.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1106841On another note, I would be extremely relieved if Paradox canceled the PnP game at some point.

Doubt it.  Onyx is still making them money, but I am hoping that Bloodlines 2 flops since I know it is going to be woke garbage and nothing like the first once which actually got me into world of darkness.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1106842Doubt it.  Onyx is still making them money, but I am hoping that Bloodlines 2 flops since I know it is going to be woke garbage and nothing like the first once which actually got me into world of darkness.

The money from tabletop games is chump change compared to that from video games. They are keeping the tabletop around for promotional value, not because it makes them an appreciable profit. The metaplot and rules changes in V5 would have been unthinkable to the White Wolf of yesteryear.

Quote from: Omega;1106715No clue who wrote this but here is a hilarious parody summation.

Dude! It's been ages since I last read that. Thank you!!!

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1106848The money from tabletop games is chump change compared to that from video games. They are keeping the tabletop around for promotional value, not because it makes them an appreciable profit. The metaplot and rules changes in V5 would have been unthinkable to the White Wolf of yesteryear.

Which is why I hoping Bloodlines 2 flops.  Once they realize they cannot make money off the video games they might be more willing to sell it just to get rid of it.

You know its really pathetic and sad that in this day and age of game design failure. The best a fan can hope for is that their favourite game is NOT remade.

Well you rather have the fond memories and wish they make the game, or do you want option B.  Option B being a full sixty dollar game used as live service so they can charge you with all the microtransactions, charge you money for even the littlest of DLCs, and oh the original game content was sliced up to make up for even more dlc.  You think that is crazy I have you know Paradox Interactive is well known for its massive amounts of DLC that constantly changes the game play.  Paradox is also known to cave to the woke crowd and will ruin parts of their games to cater to them.

I am not sure if it is related. But they sectioned off 3 expansion adventures for 5e D&D Essentials so far only availible on D&D Beyond. Free if you got the Essentials boxed set.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1106876Which is why I hoping Bloodlines 2 flops.  Once they realize they cannot make money off the video games they might be more willing to sell it just to get rid of it.

CCP already did that and it didn't kill the tabletop. We need a rights holder who will actively cease tabletop production.

Once that happens, other publishers can fill the gaping power vacuum with new urban fantasy games.

Quote from: Omega;1106901You know its really pathetic and sad that in this day and age of game design failure. The best a fan can hope for is that their favourite game is NOT remade.

QFT.

On a more constructive note, I wanted to share some ideas I had for my vampire setting.

In addition to the bazillion bloodlines, vampires can be either the romantic self-loathing stereotype a la Anne Rice or the amoral demon-possessed stereotype a la Buffy and b-movies, or start as one and transition into the other. You're totally allowed to play evil vamps and even try to gain humanity in reverse of White Wolf's standard (like how Jerry Dandrige apparently tried)... or you can play as a party of psychopaths competing for atrocity points. That's fine too. I won't tell you you're playing the wrong way, even if I personally have difficulty understanding the appeal unless it's a comedy.

I also got ideas for three types of "fledglings" after reading a Buffy fanfic: suicide bombers, minions, and vampire sons/daughters. Suicide bombers are created as disposable and retain none of their human intelligence and memories besides being able to relay a simple message to their target before getting killed. Minions are smart enough to follow orders and perform complex tasks, but not enough to think for themselves and form a union. Vampire sons/daughters retain all their human intelligence and memories, and are basically the royalty of the vampire world. All of them lack impulse control, although the third type can relearn that behavior.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1107063I also got ideas for three types of "fledglings" after reading a Buffy fanfic: suicide bombers, minions, and vampire sons/daughters. Suicide bombers are created as disposable and retain none of their human intelligence and memories besides being able to relay a simple message to their target before getting killed. Minions are smart enough to follow orders and perform complex tasks, but not enough to think for themselves and form a union. Vampire sons/daughters retain all their human intelligence and memories, and are basically the royalty of the vampire world. All of them lack impulse control, although the third type can relearn that behavior.

That seems a weird angle for a Buffy-based fanfic. I can see it with some other vampire-based takes, but the Buffy "It's not you, it's a demon wearing your corpse" seems like a poor fit for that. I know the original idea (and the link to Buffy) wasn't yours, but I just found it odd. OK, tangent over.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1107068That seems a weird angle for a Buffy-based fanfic. I can see it with some other vampire-based takes, but the Buffy "It's not you, it's a demon wearing your corpse" seems like a poor fit for that. I know the original idea (and the link to Buffy) wasn't yours, but I just found it odd. OK, tangent over.

They were still vampire demons devoid of conscience. It was just meant as a simple explanation for why vampires in the Buffyverse display such a variety in general competence.

I never got the appeal of Geist. I always though the concept was too niche to justify its own books. I would have preferred a game about PCs who could be ghosts, projectors, mediums, reapers, etc. Instead we got that weird underworld cosmology loosely imported from Wraith: The Oblivion. Geist was never as popular as Wraith, and Wraith got cancelled due to low sales.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1107188I never got the appeal of Geist. I always though the concept was too niche to justify its own books. I would have preferred a game about PCs who could be ghosts, projectors, mediums, reapers, etc. Instead we got that weird underworld cosmology loosely imported from Wraith: The Oblivion. Geist was never as popular as Wraith, and Wraith got cancelled due to low sales.

That's how 1e sounded to me. It was one of those things I was surprised to see get its own full-sized corebook instead of just being a regular (new) World of Darkness antagonist book. Reading the 2e kickstarter material turned things around. They added a lot and really fleshed things out. Tons of focus on what you, as a Geist, actually do. I ended up backing it at the digital level after being totally uninterested in 1e. (It also doesn't hurt that I kind of like the rules changes that accompanied the 2e name change from World to Chronicles.)

Quote from: GeekEclectic;1107303That's how 1e sounded to me. It was one of those things I was surprised to see get its own full-sized corebook instead of just being a regular (new) World of Darkness antagonist book. Reading the 2e kickstarter material turned things around. They added a lot and really fleshed things out. Tons of focus on what you, as a Geist, actually do. I ended up backing it at the digital level after being totally uninterested in 1e. (It also doesn't hurt that I kind of like the rules changes that accompanied the 2e name change from World to Chronicles.)

To be entirely honest, you could say all the corebooks could have been antagonist books or, conversely, that all antagonist books could be expanded into corebooks.

Simply fleshing it out doesn't make Geist more interesting. The concept itself simply doesn't have the cultural cache or romanticism of, say, vampires or wizards or actual ghosts. It makes more sense as one character option out of several rather than its own. A game adapted from Dead Like Me sounds more interesting.

After the big five of Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, Ghost and Fae, White Wolf started scrapping the barrel and there's really no way to hide that. Vampire: The Masquerade is still the big money maker, always has been, and everything else pretty much runs on the good will and nostalgia of long-time fans rather than merit. It's nowhere near as interesting after you get deprogrammed and start reading urban fantasy written by someone else. Now it comes across as arbitrary, restrictive, repetitive, self-derivative, and trapped in the worst parts of the 90s.

And to be entirely honest, the settings of the World of Darkness don't interest me. Geist in particular because of its focus on underworld adventures. Firstly, White Wolf's "underworld" is actually purgatory (and liberally lifted from Wraith: The Oblivion's labyrinth) and they're pointlessly butchering real mythology for no real benefit. Secondly, the PCs could go around dealing with ghosts and reaper-men on Earth instead rather than creating this pointlessly convoluted and contradictory cosmology where ghosts can still exist without anchors despite other books' mechanics suggesting that's impossible (which, again, is lifted from Wraith: The Oblivion's mechanics). Thirdly, if I wanted to go on underworld adventures then I would play Planescape or something because that's actually designed for that sort of thing whereas the White Wolf school of design leaves much to be desired. Fourthly, Geist is just a poor man's version of Wraith: The Oblivion/Orpheus; if you're going to be that derivative anyway, at least have the balls to just remake Wraith like that one unfinished fan-splat from way back in 2005.

I wouldn't be as annoyed by all that if I had other options. But World of Darkness holds a monopoly over urban fantasy (Shadowrun doesn't count because its cyberpunk too). There are no other options, or at least none with the literally hundreds of books that World of Darkness has. The Everlasting and WitchCraft each died after about five books each, despite having numerous mechanical innovations over World of Darkness like using universal guidelines for creating superpowers and making crossover easy to accomplish.

Brainwashed sycophants claim World of Darkness has top position and survived this long because it's simply better than its competitors and that trying to be creative or better emulate non-WoD urban fantasy is pointless. That's all obviously bullshit. World of Darkness got lucky... and that luck has run out. World of Darkness stopped making as much money after the 90s ended and despite launching the new world as a blatant marketing stunt, White Wolf kept declining (and despite what brainwashed revisionist historians would tell you, the new world didn't kill White Wolf, it was created vainly to stave off them already dying). World of Darkness, including their flagship Vampire, has continued declining into the present. That's why White Wolf got bought out by CCP, why they got dissolved into a holding company by CCP, and why they were later sold to Paradox. CCP couldn't figure out a way to make money and divested itself of White Wolf. It's pretty obvious that Paradox really only cares about the IP's potential for video games.

World of Darkness is destined to die out regardless of whether it gets woke or not. The bubble already burst back in the 90s/00s. So I'm just going to wait until the next big urban fantasy game comes out to take its place. I can't seem to find as much motivation these days to try making my own.

Talking about alternatives to WoD, Night Shift: Veterans of The Supernatural War RPG (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jasonvey/night-shift-veterans-of-the-supernatural-wars-rpg/description) is on kickstarter.

And i think the biggest problem of the Chronicle of Darkness/nWoD 2e is... They really need new freelancer who aren't shit and can't stopping injecting all kinda of useless cringe crap they put in the new books. I don't want to play my Werewolf Pack as a fucking Therapy Group-slash-Suicide Cult full of bare functional people, and a even more confusing mythology. I totally okay with playing Spiritual ICE agent and talking about Building a Wall or something to the Hisil.

Quote from: DarcyDettmann;1107421Talking about alternatives to WoD, Night Shift: Veterans of The Supernatural War RPG (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jasonvey/night-shift-veterans-of-the-supernatural-wars-rpg/description) is on kickstarter.

I'm sold. Not hard when the basic pitch is "you can emulate any of those urban fantasy TV shows you watched, and beyond!"

On a similar note, a few other urban fantasy games made in the last decade I remember include Dresden Files, Monsterhearts, Urban Shadows, and Liminal. For vamps specifically I remember Undying, Vampire City, and Feed. Blades in the Dark is a secondary world setting. I'm not including purely paranormal investigation games like Call of Cthulhu, Chill, Cryptworld, Monster of the Week, and so forth. Nor cyberpunk settings like Shadowrun.

As an alternative setting there's also After The Vampire Wars for Mythras.
Its vampires are now out in the open and conducting a tentative peace with humans... various other supernaturals feature in it as well.
I'd use its rules but not its setting... I'd rather aim it at something like the Sergei Lukyanenko's Watch series, where such things remain hidden.

I never understood the thing/the greatness with WoD. What is it that you do within the confounds of that rpg? Are the vampires hideous like in Salem's Lot or are they shimmering? Are the werewolves like in The Howling?

I think the initial attraction was playing monsters... and there were different factions of vampires, so intrigue and politics went with it.
They're not sparkly vampires... and going by the TV movie of Salem's Lot, Mr. Barlow would be of the Nosferatu faction.

The werewolves could be like the ones from The Howling, yeah.

My interest in NWoD and Geist is mostly focused on the Hunter line... but I could see the Hunters having a Geist contact who they'd consult from time to time, or team up with when they had shared interests... thought to the Hunters the Geist might present as a 'medium' or 'shaman' and not reveal too many details about its true nature.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1107524I never understood the thing/the greatness with WoD. What is it that you do within the confounds of that rpg? Are the vampires hideous like in Salem's Lot or are they shimmering? Are the werewolves like in The Howling?

They were all of the above and everything else. You had some that were like from the movie Nosferatu, you had some like they walked out of a goth club, some that looked relatively normal, some that were bio-mutants, some that could pass themselves off nearly as werewolves, and on and on.

What World of Darkness and others with a similar theme from that same time period tapped into were various popular books coming out a bit before that served as inspiration. Rice's Interview with a Vampire was a big influence on Vampire, Barker's Cabal/Nightbreed influenced others. The book and the movie The Howling probably served as a basis for Werewolf. And so on. Society of Monsters is not a new concept. But in the 80s and into the 90s it gained a resurgence with various horror authors.

The Howling came out in 77 and was made into a movie in 81.
Wolfen came out in 78 and was made into a movie in 81
Interview with the Vampire was written in 76 and did so-so. But Lestat in 85 did well and seems to have been the spark of interest in the series for some. And made into a movie in 96
Cabal/Nightbreed came out in 88 and was made into a movie in 1990.

TSR put out the Ravenloft campaign setting in 1990.
Nightlife came out in 1990.
White Wolf and their Vampire RPG comes in the scene in 91 (Formerly Lion Rampant from 87-90 and White Wolf Magazine from 86 on.)
Palladium comes out with Nightbane in 95.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1107524I never understood the thing/the greatness with WoD. What is it that you do within the confounds of that rpg?

The vampires are essentially modeled after Anne Rice's rules for her romanticized vamps, with "clans" and "bloodlines" tacked on as character class equivalents that double as cliques. Each clique essentially determines the PC's personality, beliefs about other cliques, cost break for superpowers, and weaknesses. For example, the "gangrel" class gives a cost break for superpowers involving animal empathy, shape shifting, and super toughness, and their weakness is that they exhibit animal features mentally and/or physically (the exact mechanic varies dramatically by edition).

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1107524Are the vampires hideous like in Salem's Lot or are they shimmering?

The nosferatu class is all ugly, all the time. Although how so and how much varies dramatically by edition and supplement. In one edition, they can acquire physical mutations that give various benefits. In another edition, they can look so beautiful that their beauty becomes repugnant.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1107524Are the werewolves like in The Howling?

Not at all. They are hereditary guardians of balance. Depending on edition, they are either civilization-hating eco-terrorists or paranormal vice cops. And that's all they are. There aren't any cursed unfortunates, infectious bites, pacts with Satan, hounds of God, magic wolf pelts, or any of the other dramatically different ideas about werewolves found in folklore and fiction.

White Wolf was/is somehow able to write dozens of books about that very niche-sounding idea.

Politics. The major appeal for players is internal politics between the factions of the setting. When players talked about their setting it was usually about faction X who formed an alliance with faction Y and faction Z who ruled the city for decades, but is now doing poorly and trying to get more influence.
Second appeal are the gothic themes of the games. It's not a horror game in the sense that you have to fear being eaten by something (which can happen too), but it's not a superhero game either. There is some nasty, gritty stuff your character does and that makes the games mood dark and bleak.

Actually what attracted me was the noir aspects.  The fact you got factions working together and against each other to bring down the city to its current rotton form means you have a lot of mysteries to solve.

Quote from: Omega;1106536One of my players was verrrry into all the WOD stuff and played for years in the local LARP.

They were not impressed at all with the new material and the new-new material even less.

One of the big appeals for the nWoD at the time it came out was no Metaplot. You could make the settings your own. More so than with the cWoD. Another big appeal was the seperation of the racial splat (for example clan) from the political views that came with that splat. A Masquerade Ventrue had to be very traditional and powermongery. A Requiem Ventrue will be like that if he joins the Invictus (a covenant), but his views will be more like a Brujah if he joins the Carthian movement.

Quote from: BarefootGaijin;1106544I'm also WoD curious, never played, have CtL 1e, VtR 1e and the blue book. Is there a TL;DR on the CoD differences? Probably I expect, but pressed for time. I like the nWoD stuff and I heard rumblings of things like 'beats' and stuff from later versions. WoD/nWoD/CoD/V5/etc is all a bit confusing (I think I said that elsewhere though).

EDIT: Beats, tilts, conditions, integrity not morality (because good people do bad things too). My head is spinning.

Yep, your player character gets certain conditions and tilts (combat conditions) during play. The player then has to make a roll to make the conditions and tilt go away. You will be rewarded with a beat if that happens. You can exchange 3 (or 5?) beats for 1 xp point. So that makes the entire game more fiddly and more meta. There are some other differences, but this is the biggest one. This happened to all the books since the God Machine Chronicle aka second edition, which came out in 2013. All the second edition books are using this system.

There were also some name changes. WoD became oldWoD, later became classicWoD and then became WoD again. NewWoD became ChroniclesofD. All of this had to do with White Wolf being bought by first CCP (from Eve online) and later Paradox Interactive (from Europe Universales). The original WW crew was fired from CCP because CCP spend too much on the WoD MMO, but after that they used to be licensing both oWoD and nWoD under the name Onyx Path. Now they only do the new one, because Paradox wanted to make the old WoD themselves under the name of White Wolf. Which is now defunct because of some political backlash about gays in Chechenya (?!?). They pulled the plug and gave the rights to Modiphius.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1107630Actually what attracted me was the noir aspects.  The fact you got factions working together and against each other to bring down the city to its current rotton form means you have a lot of mysteries to solve.

That's always been the biggest part of the draw for me as well. Similar to why I was initially attracted to cyberpunk games.
I don't really care about playing the monsters, or having powers... but I like those noir themes of corruption and doom. Desperate people doing desperate things under the cover of darkness. I don't know if those elements play out on the table, as usual it probably matters most who you're playing with.

Quote from: Simlasa;1106507Okay, let's try this out...
I'm NWoD curious... I've yet to play... and I've got questions.
...

Thanks!

Quote from: Snowman0147;1106521No.  You are honestly fucked my friend.  ...

I disagree. Chronicles of Darkness is a perfectly serviceable game. You can use the various conditions/tilt and ignore beats or what not and just award straight experience. I actually enjoy conditions, they can add some "crunch" to a game without going full crunch. (no one goes full Crunch!) The game basics are very much the same dice pool mechanic nWoD and predecessors were. You can steal gratuitously from the various lines to make your own supernaturals. Frankly a lot of it reminds me of GURPS where some of the crunch is replaced with yogurt. The brand names are Sharpied out. No, not greek yogurt you fool, the 5 for a $1 stuff you can't pronounce half the ingredients.

The parts you hate are easily left out. It still functions fine. I've used it for several one shots (zombie survival, alien invasion) and most people who've played before picked it right up. Especially when I ignore the strangeness (like beats. It's vestigial. You can hack it right out and there's no bleeding. Or feeling. I guess stupid just lops off without fanfare.).

Now, if you want to see how badly you can fuck up a perfectly usable system, pick up the Trinity crap. It's seriously horrible. It makes absolutely no sense.

I'm pretty sure Onyx Path's next game is going to be a series of chapters, each written in a different lost language with strange hand-drawn stick figures and pictures of feces-art set in several of the developers' bedrooms. It will rant on about how "they're coming for us through our games" and the last half of the last chapter will just be empty where the last page has only the word "sorry" at the end without a period. It will of course have custom dice where every number on the d12 is a 1 except a lonely 3.

The progression is deteriorating fast. Pick up all the CoD shit quickly before these motherfuckers permanently shit the bed. After that, all bets are off. Like the developers are obviously off their meds.

Quote from: trechriron;1107711Now, if you want to see how badly you can fuck up a perfectly usable system, pick up the Trinity crap. It's seriously horrible. It makes absolutely no sense.

The old Trinity superhero set? Or is this some new thing called Trinity?

Aberrant was a perfectly fine system and played in some ways better than most WOD.

What's wrong with the new system? Storypath (the new system used for new Trinity/Scion/Abberant) seems pretty straightforward.

trechriron the challenge I've had when I've tried to run CoD 2e are:

- NPC's - built just like PC's, so they're a ton of work
- the massive amount of fiddly rules. All the fiddly rules of the game, plus the hundreds of tiny powers.

Quote from: trechriron;1107711I disagree. Chronicles of Darkness is a perfectly serviceable game. You can use the various conditions/tilt and ignore beats or what not and just award straight experience. I actually enjoy conditions, they can add some "crunch" to a game without going full crunch. (no one goes full Crunch!) The game basics are very much the same dice pool mechanic nWoD and predecessors were. You can steal gratuitously from the various lines to make your own supernaturals. Frankly a lot of it reminds me of GURPS where some of the crunch is replaced with yogurt. The brand names are Sharpied out. No, not greek yogurt you fool, the 5 for a $1 stuff you can't pronounce half the ingredients.

The parts you hate are easily left out. It still functions fine. I've used it for several one shots (zombie survival, alien invasion) and most people who've played before picked it right up. Especially when I ignore the strangeness (like beats. It's vestigial. You can hack it right out and there's no bleeding. Or feeling. I guess stupid just lops off without fanfare.).

Or save yourself from the headache and just run nWoD 1E era games.  See I am providing better a solution already.

Quote from: trechriron;1107711Now, if you want to see how badly you can fuck up a perfectly usable system, pick up the Trinity crap. It's seriously horrible. It makes absolutely no sense.

I'm pretty sure Onyx Path's next game is going to be a series of chapters, each written in a different lost language with strange hand-drawn stick figures and pictures of feces-art set in several of the developers' bedrooms. It will rant on about how "they're coming for us through our games" and the last half of the last chapter will just be empty where the last page has only the word "sorry" at the end without a period. It will of course have custom dice where every number on the d12 is a 1 except a lonely 3.

The progression is deteriorating fast. Pick up all the CoD shit quickly before these motherfuckers permanently shit the bed. After that, all bets are off. Like the developers are obviously off their meds.

Now I am curious of what is going on with the storypath system.  Though if this is what finally make you open your eyes to how bad Onyx Path is at with mechanics I guess it is a good thing.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1107759Now I am curious of what is going on with the storypath system.  Though if this is what finally make you open your eyes to how bad Onyx Path is at with mechanics I guess it is a good thing.

The most mind-boggling thing about this is that the system was actually developed with the help of the community. To me the basic task resolution in nWoD was just good. It was quick, deadly and quickly got out of the way during play. True, I enjoy systems with less dice better like a simple role over system like Unisystem or a percentile system like BRP, but it is a good system unless you hate dicepool systems. The only thing they should have changed about it was the combat system. I liked the old system better. I definitely need a dodge/block/parry roll when defending and I need a seperate damage roll. I don't mind the combat being a bit crunchier than the rest. All the new mechanics don't fulfill any need I had about the system. I don't get it.

Quote from: Omega;1107712The old Trinity superhero set? Or is this some new thing called Trinity?

Aberrant was a perfectly fine system and played in some ways better than most WOD.

The new Storypath system thing recently Kickstarted.

Quote from: PencilBoy99;1107725What's wrong with the new system? Storypath (the new system used for new Trinity/Scion/Abberant) seems pretty straightforward.

I would have to reopen and refresh my memory. My first pass was... elder god head fog.

Quote from: PencilBoy99;1107726trechriron the challenge I've had when I've tried to run CoD 2e are:

- NPC's - built just like PC's, so they're a ton of work
- the massive amount of fiddly rules. All the fiddly rules of the game, plus the hundreds of tiny powers.

This is true of most systems. You can run most NPCs in any story* system by having a name, a descriptive sentence and an average dice pool. Pick one skill they are really good at and add +2 dice.

Seriously, I'm very interested in a retro-clone d10 dice pool system that could kind of MM3e or HERO system a standard powers system. I like MM3e powers but not really the rest of it. It seems that systems with tons of unique powers that require system mastery are more popular than generic systems. I still don't understand why.

Quote from: Simlasa;1107661That's always been the biggest part of the draw for me as well. Similar to why I was initially attracted to cyberpunk games.
I don't really care about playing the monsters, or having powers... but I like those noir themes of corruption and doom. Desperate people doing desperate things under the cover of darkness. I don't know if those elements play out on the table, as usual it probably matters most who you're playing with.

I think the noir mood of the video game drew me in. The mood in Bloodlines always reminded me of the Tim Burton Batman movies and that was the biggest draw. Just walking the streets was cool in that game.

Quote from: GIMME SOME SUGAR;1107524I never understood the thing/the greatness with WoD. What is it that you do within the confounds of that rpg? Are the vampires hideous like in Salem's Lot or are they shimmering? Are the werewolves like in The Howling?

The greatest thing about WoD was the cute little goth chicks that larped it. Other than that I have never had any interest in any of their stuff.
And the answer to your question is if I recall right, is yes, they are.

My favorite Trinity product was the Quickstart. I've run a several dozen games just with it because I never felt the full game lived up to the promise.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/86000/Trinity-RPG-Quickstart

Same goes for the Exalted Quickstart.
http://kschnee.xepher.net/rpg/exalted/Exalted%20Starter%20Kit.pdf

Quote from: jan paparazzi;1107773The only thing they should have changed about it was the combat system. I liked the old system better. I definitely need a dodge/block/parry roll when defending and I need a seperate damage roll. I don't mind the combat being a bit crunchier than the rest.

I personally prefer abstracted combat.

The only benefit of separate defense rolls is that the GM can conceal the opponent's statistics from the player, but you could do the exact same thing using a single roll if you used a custom dice rolling app that could conceal modifiers from players. Although if you're using a custom dice rolling app that saves you time on rolling dice for combat anyway, then it doesn't matter how many rolls you make since an app would take no time anyway.

The problem with separate damage rolls, at least in the CoD rules where damage is applied automatically, is that it makes weapons with higher damage automatically better than those with lower damage. It's impossible to describe imagery like a glancing blow dealing barely any damage or only a little damage, because a lot of damage is dealt anyway and CoD characters have limited hit points.

I just don't get the obsession with combat that tabletop RPGs seem to have. Ironically, abstracted combat rules seem more realistic to me because they give far more leeway in describing what happens. Because reality doesn't operate on RPG mechanics.