It appears, some of you guys actually like Nobilis.

Now, I own the white book. I think it's fun to read. I like the idea. But I don't get the system. I honestly believe there is no system.

Let me explain: I can do role-playing just fine. I can tell stories just fine. I consider myself an easy-going and cooperative player. - But I really think numbers are there to not be easy-going and cooperative. Numbers are for opposing the other people at the table. Numbers are for "I get what I want, you don't". Numbers are No.

And that's good. Opposing other people makes for more intersting games. Mind, numbers are not there to filter content. When someone wants to bring in starships into a western game you don't want numbers, you want tomatoes. Opposing other players, pushing back, is conscious and rational method for making the game more enticing.

So of course, the numbers are there to settle the artificial dispute.


It's just, I don't rules for that in Nobilis. The bucket never stops. I use a miracle, you use another miracle. We can go on until someone runs out of miracle points. And then there is no hard and fast rule on how long the character will be out of miracle points, and when he is ready for a new round.

Sure, the game makes it deliberatly hard to kill another Noble. That's fine. But there is really no way to surprise another Noble, to capture him in the Tartaros, to ridicule him infront of Lord Ananda, to incinerate his garden gnome. You can't do anything, unless the other player gives in. And for me that misses the point.


So please enlighten me. Have I missed a crucial part of the rules or are the rules informed by some other philosophy?

Quote from: 1of3;393598So please enlighten me. Have I missed a crucial part of the rules or are the rules informed by some other philosophy?

From what you've said about what you like about dice and mechanics, I would take that gorgeous book to your nearest pseudo-artiste hangout and get laid with it, repeatedly, then put it on your coffee table and never, ever, try to read it again, just look at the pretty pictures and masturbate to the memory of patchouli oil-scented pussy.

Quote from: 1of3;393598And then there is no hard and fast rule on how long the character will be out of miracle points, and when he is ready for a new round.

This little bit here could be at the root of your misunderstanding...

You see, MPs are never automatically refreshed during play, not at the end of a scene, not at the end of a session. The attribute pools only revert to their permanent values between stories, or scenarios if you prefer. In the meantime, the only methods of regaining points are by suffering difficulties when your Handicaps come into play, by performing services to your Code, by stealing power from other supernatural beings through the Nettle Rite, or by eating the heart of another miraculous being. The first two are recommended in that at least they might not earn you new enemies.

I'll have a go:

If two miracles are in direct competition, highest miracle level wins. Example: arm wrestling with Aspect, two opposing Lesser Creations of Fire and Ice being fired at each other. You can increase a miracle's level to more than is needed for your intended effect if you want to overcome a rival (so you could have a Level 5 Lesser Creation).

If two miracles are indirectly competing, it's up to the GM what happens, depending on circumstance, and guided by the examples in the rulebook. Example: using a Lesser Creation of Acid to create a trench to guide a miraculously created lava-dragon away from the city.

If you want a miracle to affect the space immediately around a Noble, then it needs Penetration.

Example : A Greater Destruction of Land destroys the ground around a Noble, but doesn't have Penetration. He's protected by his Spirit characteristic, which means the space around him is like a little parallel universe in which your miracle hasn't happened. It takes a round for the miracle to 'mesh with reality' and for this effect to end, so the Noble above could do a quick Aspect-powered leap away from the miracle's area of effect.

If the miracle had enough Penetration (which adds to the level of the miracle) to overcome the target's Spirit, the land under his feet would have gone straight away and the Noble would have fallen.


In terms of deciding who 'wins' a scene, that's dependent on the scenario.

A duel might be to first blood, a battle scene may depend on the survival of an important structure, etc. The thing that Nobilis isn't intended for is just a fight to the death - it's just too hard to kill most Nobles, and they tend to be good at running away too (plus a lot of them are outright immortal). It's generally pointless too, as their Noble spirit-shard will just wind up in another body. As far as a 'standard story' goes, 'Stop Excrucian Shard X's attack against your Estate and steal away some of his mystic power' is probably it.

However, I don't think that Nobilis (or any high-power system with loose rules) is ideal for cutthroat player-versus-player competition. It could be done, but you'd need mature players and a fair-minded HG.

QuoteYou see, MPs are never automatically refreshed during play, not at the end of a scene, not at the end of a session. The attribute pools only revert to their permanent values between stories, or scenarios if you prefer.

I figured so much. So instead of random points of time, MPs are refreshed between stories. But then we get another question: When is a story over?

At least in PtA, you know when the episode is over: When the producer is out of budget. When the Next Week Ons have been used. When the issue and the franchise have been adressed. These are formal criteria. There are no such in Nobilis.

I feel in Nobilis all the rules are only pointing to the fiction. This happens, that happens. The rules never point to other rules. There are very interesting bits of rules, particularly for the time (the rules for handicaps can be found in most RPGs of the day), but I can see how they relate to each other. For me the rules do not form a basis to play on.

Quote from: 1of3;393603But then we get another question: When is a story over?

Well, when is an adventure over in D&D? You could ask precisely the same question about pretty much any RPG: it all comes down to good GMing and how the basics of the scenario has been prepared. You could say that the "core story" for Nobilis is "Protect your Estates against Breakthroughs from the Beyond and other nefarious threats", but there are really no limits to what a specific campaign could be about.

Quote from: 1of3;393603For me the rules do not form a basis to play on.

You're not alone, go with my suggestion.

...And what the book has to say about it, on page 167 ("Story Boundaries"): "When a new story starts, something in the stream of each character's life has resolved itself. Events have nailed certain truths on the gates of history. The characters have experienced something that changes who they are. It is an ending. It is a beginning. It is a transformation. The previous story is no longer part of their lives, but rather a part of their history. Whether five seconds or five decades pass before the next story begins, they recover their full share of miracle points. They have new strength. How could they not? It is a new lifetime."

The GM advice on pages 20-21 also recommends having "a handful of acceptable ends" in mind even while planning for the story in advance, for that matter.

I'm not sure that many RPGs have formal rules about the length of a campaign. Even in D&D 4th, aren't they only guidelines?

>>I feel in Nobilis all the rules are only pointing to the fiction. This happens, that happens. The rules never point to other rules. There are very interesting bits of rules, particularly for the time (the rules for handicaps can be found in most RPGs of the day), but I can see how they relate to each other. For me the rules do not form a basis to play on.

Well, certainly some rules interact with each other, miracles directly opposing each other, miracles removing wound levels, miracles being opposed by Spirit. And MPs work with lots of things. Other things are more up to HG adjudication, like say 'How many Flower Rites does it take to Excruciate an Estate?'.

Ultimately this element of HG adjudication is inescapable, because of the sheer flexibility inherent in a game where the PCs can have powers relating to any concept they choose. You can't have definitive rules for every possible Estate.

Quote from: thenorm42;393612Well, certainly some rules interact with each other, miracles directly opposing each other, miracles removing wound levels, miracles being opposed by Spirit.

In fact, the miracle system is the resolution system in the game. Some of the Rites (such as Holy Fire, Last Trump, Nettle Rite or Witch Hunt) include their own minor submechanics, but more often than not those too are firmly tied to the attributes and miracle points (Last Trump converts MPs from one pool to another, for example, while Witch Hunt tracks down subtle traces left behind by miraculous activity). Even mundane actions are basically judged according to how they correspond to the difficulty levels of Aspect.

Ambush a Noble? Sneak up on him with miraculous stealth that overcomes either his Aspect or the power level of whatever sensory enhancement he might have active. Incinerate a lawn ornament? That could be arranged with a Lesser Creation of Fire, which would be a level 4 miracle. Make a fool of someone in front of Ananda? Well, miracles obviously won't sway the Emperor to Come, not directly, but they will prove useful in finding out dirty little secrets or setting up the stage for the embarrassment.

As said before, ultimately the whole thing isn't all that different from any roll-over system. The risk of bad luck with dice has simply been replaced with the risk of exhausting your character's energies which might be needed later on.

Quote from: thenorm42;393612I'm not sure that many RPGs have formal rules about the length of a campaign. Even in D&D 4th, aren't they only guidelines?

True. But the mechanics of D&D do not care about stories, campaigns or adventures. They care about obstacles overcome, treasures looted and a good nights sleep.

Plus, D&D comes with a well known premise. Nobilis give the impression the game play should be unlike D&D. But then I can't find what to do instead. It wouldn't be that hard really. Just say: For a Nobilis story you need A, B, C. You might want D and want to stay away from E.

The reference to "a lifetime" you gave, GrimGent, I find somewhat helpful - when I ignore the five seconds.

Quote from: GrimGent;393631In fact, the miracle system is the resolution system in the game.

I guess that's the intention. I just don't feel it resolves things. Auctoritas, the Law of "I'm not part of any estate" and the annual rite to not get hurt or even embarrassed make it deliberately hard to get a resolution.

So you really want to take the indirect way. But as thenorm24 noted:

QuoteIf two miracles are indirectly competing, it's up to the GM what happens, depending on circumstance, and guided by the examples in the rulebook

Now, I have no idea what is a relevant cicumstance for a freaking god. Especially in a game that is deliberately removed from everyday experience, I would expect rules that do not constantly require adjucation by the participiants.

Quote from: CRKrueger;393599From what you've said about what you like about dice and mechanics, I would take that gorgeous book to your nearest pseudo-artiste hangout and get laid with it, repeatedly, then put it on your coffee table and never, ever, try to read it again, just look at the pretty pictures and masturbate to the memory of patchouli oil-scented pussy.

:jaw-dropping:

>>Now, I have no idea what is a relevant cicumstance for a freaking god. Especially in a game that is deliberately removed from everyday experience,

Godhood isn't relevant in this sort of contest. It's the same adjudication as if two mundane versions of the miracles came into conflict. Could a trench redirect a lava stream, or perhaps only part of it? It's the HG's call.

Where things are more abstract or supernatural, it does get trickier. There, the best point of reference you have for making judgements (at least for Domain miracles, which are usually the difficult ones) is the nature of the Noble's Estate, generally discussed during character creation and play.

E.g. In the GWB, the Heavenly Noble of Wine's Estate is all about vigour and socialising. They'd be good at making a party swing, or even conjuring up some healing vino, but they'd be bad at killing an enemy by conjuring alcohol into someone's veins. Such a miracle would be more difficult to do (perhaps even requiring a Greater Creation - this would be discussed in character creation) and also easier to oppose, say with a Creation of Lightning to restart the guy's heart.

Also, if an abstract miracle is being cast upon an entity with a spirit (and most usually are) the likely character of the spirit can affect the potency of the miracle. The innocent spirit of a little fluffy cloud is unlikely to do much but drizzle on your foes, even with a Greater Creation of Revenge enraging him, while a rabid dog might only take a Lesser Creation of Revenge to go into a killing frenzy.

>>I would expect rules that do not constantly require adjucation by the participiants.

As I said, unless you want a power list for every available Estate - which is impossible, and not Nobilis' style either - some HG adjudication is going to be necessary. What Nobilis gives you are some good guidelines and examples - detailed, but not too restrictive. In addition, it gives you advice on setting up Estates to have comparable powers. Obviously, some are always going to be stronger than others (I think the Noble of Destruction may have more utility in many situations than the Noble of Cheese), but that's part of the game.

>>I guess that's the intention. I just don't feel it resolves things. Auctoritas, the Law of "I'm not part of any estate" and the annual rite to not get hurt or even embarrassed make it deliberately hard to get a resolution.

Only the highest levels of The Rite of Holy Fire (out of the reach of even Nobles) protect against rumours and the like. It's deliberately set up that a knock-out, drag-down fight is just never a tactically wise move. You've got to have some other objective in the scene that one side is trying to achieve and the other is trying to stop them - a magical ritual, protecting a city from a natural disaster, influencing a battle, a court case, etc. These scenes don't have to come entirely from the HG, either, the Nobles could make it their goal throughout a story to find the components of the Lost Magical Ritual of McGuffin which will stop Excrucian X's current nefarious plan in its tracks, and the finale could be them trying to perform the ritual before Excrucian X succeeds.

Quote from: 1of3;393736But the mechanics of D&D do not care about stories, campaigns or adventures.

Neither do the general mechanics of Nobilis in any purely OOC "metagame" sense. For example, the PCs actually think of their own lives in terms of scenes and stories, and they know about how facing adversity will replenish their spiritual strength, which makes getting into trouble over Handicaps for the sake of fresh MPs a viable tactic in character. Again, it's no PTA, and there are no resources for narrative control as such. If you're looking for comparisons with another RPG that employs the terminology of stories and scenes, WoD might come somewhat closer.

QuoteNobilis give the impression the game play should be unlike D&D. But then I can't find what to do instead. It wouldn't be that hard really. Just say: For a Nobilis story you need A, B, C. You might want D and want to stay away from E.

"The basic requirements are these:

• The story should hold all the players' interest.
• It should provide every character (and player) with a reason to become involved.
• The events and characters must be consistent.
• You must know where you're going with the story -- but be flexible.

Some classic Nobilis stories involve:

• Something happening in an Anchor's life, requiring subtle help.
• Something happening in Noble society, such as a party or an alliance.
• Something happening in the Chancel needing the PCs' governing savvy.
• The trial of a PC, or a PC presiding at a trial.
• A Breakthrough that the PCs must stop.
• Internal conflicts between Imperators that the PCs must involve themselves in.
• Conflict between the PCs and another Noble.
• An important mission for the PCs' Imperator.
• The PCs using and abusing their supernatural powers in the mortal world.
• The PCs try to smooth over a Heaven/Hell conflict while serving their own side.
• An Excrucian intriguing against the PCs."

[/i]

That's from page 22. See also chapters 6 ("What Do Nobilis Do?") and 22 ("Stories in Detail").

QuoteThe reference to "a lifetime" you gave, GrimGent, I find somewhat helpful - when I ignore the five seconds.

Those five seconds are how long might pass between stories, not how long the stories last, for which there is no (and cannot be) any set time limit.

QuoteAuctoritas, the Law of "I'm not part of any estate" and the annual rite to not get hurt or even embarrassed make it deliberately hard to get a resolution.

A Rite to not get hurt by mundane threats, more accurately: Holy Fire provides no protection whatsoever against miracles, and its effectiveness as well as duration depend heavily on the character's Spirit rating. Spirit 0? Sorry, you must spend one night every week meditating under the stars, and if you are interrupted or otherwise fail to complete the ritual, the Fire gutters out. The effect only lasts for a year if you're a freakin' Inferno.

(Then again, this is a game in which genuine immortality costs no more than six out of the twenty-five points that you receive for chargen...)

The Auctoritas and the immunity to direct miracles make it more difficult to assault the likes of Nobles, but not impossible, and they also make such confrontations matter more since nothing puts lives on the line and depletes MPs like miraculous battles. As the saying goes, "If it comes to blows, both sides have already lost." The basic set-up does encourage softening up your enemies through sneakier means such as Nettling: ruining what a rival cares about the most can prove to cause more damage than any weapon.

Quote from: thenorm42;393745Also, if an abstract miracle is being cast upon an entity with a spirit (and most usually are) the likely character of the spirit can affect the potency of the miracle.

To elaborate a little on that, unless the target is a miraculous being or some other unique thing of the Spiritus Dei, it will be a spirit from a certain perspective: what's seen as a cloud in the Prosaic World is a sentient entity in its own right when approached in the Mythic World. What this means in practice is that just about anything in the setting can be treated as an NPC like any other, simply by switching to a different point of view. Among other things, this allows social solutions to dilemmas for which they usually wouldn't be appropriate: for instance, it's quite plausible to challenge old age to a game of chess or bully a door into telling who's passed that way.

It also goes to show that you couldn't possibly limit a story to a fixed series of "encounters" and predictable circumstances, when the entire world is in a sense alive and capable of talking back to you.