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Niche Protection, that embarassing itch and You

Started by HinterWelt, March 24, 2008, 04:06:09 PM

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Warthur

#90
March 25, 2008, 11:26:48 AM
Quote from: StuartThe point about Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter or Robin Hood is to suggest a group of "adventurers" that are all different and interesting characters, who engage in fun adventures of the type you might see in an RPG session.  If converted to an RPG system with clearly defined niches (Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, Thief) they would often all be in the same niche.
Only if you only look at class choice as enforcing niche. In practice, players will end up carving out their own niches using other means of differentiating their characters. Even in the earliest versions of D&D, choice of alignment and spell picks can do this; in post-3E D&D you have feats, skills and so forth. Ask a group of 3.5E players to make a party of wizards and they will all come back with completely different character builds - you'd have the guy specialising in buff spells, the guy specialising in firepower, the guy specialising in divination...
I am no longer posting here or reading this forum because Pundit has regularly claimed credit for keeping this community active. I am sick of his bullshit for reasons I explain here and I don\'t want to contribute to anything he considers to be a personal success on his part.

I recommend The RPG Pub as a friendly place where RPGs can be discussed and where the guiding principles of moderation are "be kind to each other" and "no politics". It\'s pretty chill so far.

gleichman

#91
March 25, 2008, 11:30:47 AM
Quote from: StuartI'm talking about a specific example though, and I don't see where you're disagreeing with me.  Given the choice of Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, Thief I think the Fellowship of the Ring, Robin Hood and his men, and the characters from Harry Potter would not make up well balanced parties.

But no game is that limited (except maybe original box D&D, I'd have to look).

D&D adds Ranger to the mix with others. Each of the classes has subsets from specialities and Feats that make the characters very different from each other.

Even so, I'd grant your point IF you'd just refain from painting all nich protection as the same. Maybe if you said "Extreme Niche Protection" or "Strong Niche Protection" we'd find common ground.
Whitehall Paraindustries- A blog about RPG Theory and Design

"The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you\'ve simply abdicated the responsibility to think." - William F. Buckley.

Mcrow

#92
March 25, 2008, 11:31:44 AM
D&D does work with unbalanced parties for the most part. You get painted into a corner but you CAN still play.

If you have no or too few fighter types in your party you cannot play a heavy combat adventure. If you run a dungeon with a lot of traps and have no thief type, it's not going to go well. That's a fact.

Blackleaf

#93
March 25, 2008, 11:31:57 AM
We're not talking about the same thing.

You're talking about niche = what makes a character unique.

I'm talking about game systems that break things down so that a functional party is made up of character class niches.

We're not disagreeing -- just having overlapping conversations.

:unicorn:

Blackleaf

#94
March 25, 2008, 11:33:29 AM
Quote from: WarthurOnly if you only look at class choice as enforcing niche. In practice, players will end up carving out their own niches using other means of differentiating their characters.

This is my point.

gleichman

#95
March 25, 2008, 11:33:39 AM
Quote from: Mcrowit's not just that post, I've been reading the threads here lately and almost every post you make points out how someone is wrong and yet you can't come up with a valid arguement for your point.

Sorry, it's just getting real fucking old.

I'm making my case, and some here are even agreeing with it (this point exactly in fact).

Just because you disagree doesn't mean I'm not acting in good faith.
Whitehall Paraindustries- A blog about RPG Theory and Design

"The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you\'ve simply abdicated the responsibility to think." - William F. Buckley.

Settembrini

#96
March 25, 2008, 11:34:19 AM
Elaborition on "character-centrality": The Supers-Genre, for example. Everything in the world is just a simile or catalyzer for the heroes navel-gazing. The world revolves around the heroes.

If you want to feel any accomplishment (I´m a necromancer!), you have to earn it. In order to meaningfully earn something, the world needs to be working on the same principles for everyone. For example, 7th sea is totally un-awesome. Because everything awesome you can do, was designed in a way for you to describe "awesome" things. Mook rules, are killing any accomplishment.

The table-play should be centered on the players, but the world and rules not on the characters.
If there can\'t be a TPK against the will of the players it\'s not an RPG.- Pierce Inverarity

gleichman

#97
March 25, 2008, 11:38:48 AM
Quote from: James J SkachMore importantly, IMHO, Stuart is using a very narrow definition of niche protection - probably due to this very narrow use being the prevalent usage.

It's possible.

I've never encountered this usage, nor do I know off hand of any widely published games today using that usage. And many in thread aren't seeming to use it either.

But it could still be possible.


Quote from: James J SkachThis discussion seems to lead to two basic questions:
  • At what level does one define niche in order for the discussion to have any meaning.
  • How strongly must the agreed-upon niche be enforced in order to consider it protection.
But these are design questions - so maybe a different location is needed.

Until those are answered, however, we are, IMHO, just going to be talking past each other.

I agree.
Whitehall Paraindustries- A blog about RPG Theory and Design

"The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you\'ve simply abdicated the responsibility to think." - William F. Buckley.

gleichman

#98
March 25, 2008, 11:40:34 AM
Quote from: James J SkachAs others have opened my eyes - so? Even in D&D (the logical source of you F/W/C/T classification) you can often have multiple characters that fill the same niche. Niche protection says nothing about what I'll now term Overlap (cause I like shiny terms).

Agreed.

Sort of, I don't care for the word chose "overlap" :)
Whitehall Paraindustries- A blog about RPG Theory and Design

"The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you\'ve simply abdicated the responsibility to think." - William F. Buckley.

Blackleaf

#99
March 25, 2008, 11:40:35 AM
Quote from: gleichmanBut no game is that limited (except maybe original box D&D, I'd have to look).

D&D adds Ranger to the mix with others. Each of the classes has subsets from specialities and Feats that make the characters very different from each other.

AD&D adds Ranger.

In B/X, BECMI or RC D&D you'd have:

Boromir:  Fighter
Aragorn:  Fighter
Gimli: Dwarf (Fighter)
Legolas: Elf (Fighter) no magic
Gandalf: Magic-User
Frodo:  Halfling
Samwise: Halfling
Merry: Halfling
Pippin: Halfling

Robin of Loxley- Fighter
Robert of Huntingdon - Fighter
Lady Marion of Leaford - Fighter
Much - Fighter (maybe Thief?)
Will Scarlet - Fighter (maybe Thief?)
Little John - Fighter
Friar Tuck - Fighter (maybe Cleric?)
Nasir - Fighter

Harry Potter's extensive cast - Magic User

Mcrow

#100
March 25, 2008, 11:43:51 AM
I define nich protection as:

QuoteThe mechanical concepts in games that ensure that a given character type is unique in they way are played mechanically. This often dictates the characters role in the party.

Now, if I misunderstood Gleichman's meaning of the term, I'm sorry for being a dick. If not I stand by my statements. :haw:

gleichman

#101
March 25, 2008, 11:46:26 AM
Quote from: StuartIn B/X, BECMI or RC D&D you'd have:

Ok. It would have been good to know these were the rules you where talking about up front.

There are two questions I now have:

  • 1. WhY are you using the most extreme example of niche protection in what seems to be an wholesale attack on the entire range of niche protection?
  • 2. Is it possible that the point you're trying to make is that niche protection can go too far? If so I would agree and would like to move on to talking about less extreme forms of niche protection.
Whitehall Paraindustries- A blog about RPG Theory and Design

"The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you\'ve simply abdicated the responsibility to think." - William F. Buckley.

Blackleaf

#102
March 25, 2008, 11:47:56 AM
My point remains -- you can have interesting, differentiated characters in a group even if they are in the same niche.

gleichman

#103
March 25, 2008, 11:50:13 AM
Quote from: StuartMy point remains -- you can have interesting, differentiated characters in a group even if they are in the same niche.

Sigh.

Which niche? Extreme, Medium or Soft?
Whitehall Paraindustries- A blog about RPG Theory and Design

"The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you\'ve simply abdicated the responsibility to think." - William F. Buckley.

Blackleaf

#104
March 25, 2008, 11:50:59 AM
Quote from: gleichmanSigh.

Which niche? Extreme, Medium or Soft?

Chocolate.
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