Quote from: beejazzI can certainly relate on the "who's playing the cleric?" bit, but... really? You can't play with three or five characters? 'Cause I'm pretty sure I just ran a group of five with no real tank this past Friday. And I'm pretty sure I'm going to run a game for that same group again this coming Friday.

I didn't say you can't play, I said it doesn't work as well.

You have four niches, five players.  That means two players, at the least, are going to be in the same niche.  Which undermines the whole point of niche protection in the first place: keeping players from stepping on each other's toes.

Quote...and what makes you think there will be more of it in 4e? I'm pretty sure they were going the opposite direction, going so far as making healing more a function each character does for himself, rather than relying on a cleric.

The fact that they have named four niches and said that the game is going be designed around those niches.  Is 4E going to work if everyone wants to play the Striker?  Can a four Striker party work?  If it can, then what the fuck is the point of having niches?

QuoteMoreover... there are other things than cleric that can heal. Paladins, bards, and druids can heal you up. So can archivists (Heroes of Horror), favored souls (Complete Divine), spirit shamans (also Complete Divine), and even dragon shamans (I know... wtf!?). So can... you know... potions. Mmmm... potions. *drools*

Yeah, I've been running 3.5 for the last few years, and all of those options are inefficient substitutes.   The druid ends up having to devote all of his slots to healing spells, and ends up coming off as a half-rate cleric.  The Paladin ends up being a crappy healer who has to neglect his tank role to play the healer role.

And potions/wands turns out to be a shitty substitute, because of the cost of buying magic.  In the most recent campaign I played in, no one wanted to play the cleric.  

One guy played a Factotum with awesome Use Magic Device skill, so we bought him wands of cure magic -- and then he'd roll shit for rounds on end, and it would end up taking five rounds for him to get out a cure light wounds.  

Another played a Wu Jen/Spirit Shaman who was basically completely useless in every way.  We we're 7th level, and all he could contribute to combat was magic missiles and cure lights.    

I played a Knight, and I ended up going into negatives every fucking battle because the other two couldn't survive a round in hand-to-hand (so they hid behind me), couldn't heal me fast enough, and couldn't dish out shit for damage.  We're fighting fucking Bone Dragons and plate-mailed War Trolls and Gray Renders and getting fucked up the ass every time we turn around despite the supposed CR balance.

We we're constantly being forced to retreat from fights, and spending so much on healing magic that we couldn't keep our equipment up to spec for our level.  Because of our frequent need to retreat, we weren't gathering any treasure, but because most every hit point healed   At 7th level my character was 400 GP in debt to money lenders, and her only magic item was a +1 sword.  Where did our money go?  potions and wands, potions and wands.

Yeah, part of the problem was that the GM kinda sucked ass and refused to take our limitations into account (he said it was our fault for not playing into the niches).  But part of the problem is that the game is so built around the Wizard, Warrior, Cleric, Rogue dynamic that our group of non-standard characters couldn't compete.

Quote from: JackalopeTotally.  Supers don't work without niche protection.  You could never have an interesting story where all the characters have the exact same set of powers, abilities and equipment.

I mean, can you imagine how much it would suck if Batman was accompanied by a kid he trained and equipped with the same gear he uses, and was constantly being assisted by a girl who had basically copied his whole schtick, and a former protégé with the same set of abilities.  I mean, that would like totally suck.

Or imagine how awful the Justice League would be if in addition to Superman there was a guy whose powers included being super-strong and flying, only differentiated by the lightning bolt on his chest?  And then another guy who was basically a green Superman but with some telepathic powers?  It would never work!

/sarcasm

One, I didn't say never, I said almost never.

Two, you just listed about the only exceptions in the whole fucking genre, and even then they're not exactly the same, as you yourself point out. Also in the JLA are peeps like Wonder Woman, kinda different than Superman. Green Arrow, not really a strong man. Red tornado. Hawkman. Green Lantern Black Canary. How about Avengers..... Fantastic Four...... Xmen...... New mutants..... Watchmen.... etc...

How about ya take your sarcasm and go asspound yourself with it.

Quote from: JackalopeYeah, I've been running 3.5 for the last few years, and all of those options are inefficient substitutes.   The druid ends up having to devote all of his slots to healing spells, and ends up coming off as a half-rate cleric.  The Paladin ends up being a crappy healer who has to neglect his tank role to play the healer role.

And potions/wands turns out to be a shitty substitute, because of the cost of buying magic.  In the most recent campaign I played in, no one wanted to play the cleric.  

One guy played a Factotum with awesome Use Magic Device skill, so we bought him wands of cure magic -- and then he'd roll shit for rounds on end, and it would end up taking five rounds for him to get out a cure light wounds.  

Another played a Wu Jen/Spirit Shaman who was basically completely useless in every way.  We we're 7th level, and all he could contribute to combat was magic missiles and cure lights.    

I played a Knight, and I ended up going into negatives every fucking battle because the other two couldn't survive a round in hand-to-hand (so they hid behind me), couldn't heal me fast enough, and couldn't dish out shit for damage.  We're fighting fucking Bone Dragons and plate-mailed War Trolls and Gray Renders and getting fucked up the ass every time we turn around despite the supposed CR balance.

We we're constantly being forced to retreat from fights, and spending so much on healing magic that we couldn't keep our equipment up to spec for our level.  Because of our frequent need to retreat, we weren't gathering any treasure, but because most every hit point healed   At 7th level my character was 400 GP in debt to money lenders, and her only magic item was a +1 sword.  Where did our money go?  potions and wands, potions and wands.

Yeah, part of the problem was that the GM kinda sucked ass and refused to take our limitations into account (he said it was our fault for not playing into the niches).  But part of the problem is that the game is so built around the Wizard, Warrior, Cleric, Rogue dynamic that our group of non-standard characters couldn't compete.

Can't say I entirely agree about having more than 4 players, our group has done just fine with 5, but out of all the "niches" (or whatever classes with what seem to be niches are being called now), we have trouble running without a melee fighter or a cleric if the game is going to approach anywhere near the number and level of fights the game assumes as default. Game we player last year the group stared out with a ninja, ranged specialty fighter, rogue, cleric and me as a wizard. First 2 fights against goblins went well enough with my wizard's sleep spells being pivotal, but the third fight we ran into 20 big beetles and the ninja ran immediately, the fighter never bothered to even attempt moving to melee range (damn archer), and the cleric had an even lower initiative than me so my low initiative wizard got overrun and killed. My new character was a textbook standard dwarf axe fighter. The rest of the campaign went fine. The one time we tried a campaign with no cleric it went much like the quote above, it was either a fortune in healing potions and a sucky warlock-using-healing wand, or massive amounts of downtime, and restulted in a near tpk, with only the warlock escaping, the bastard.

Quote from: JackalopeI didn't say you can't play, I said it doesn't work as well.

Orly?

QuoteIf there are exactly four niches, the game won't work with three players, and won't work with five players. Six players is right the fuck out.

I don't know what you intended to say, but... y'know...

QuoteYou have four niches, five players.  That means two players, at the least, are going to be in the same niche.  Which undermines the whole point of niche protection in the first place: keeping players from stepping on each other's toes.

Bull. A rogue and a bard do different things. The monk isn't a standard tank, and seems custom built to fuck with spellcasters. Druids are fun, and don't fit fully into or compete directly with another niche.

QuoteThe fact that they have named four niches and said that the game is going be designed around those niches.  Is 4E going to work if everyone wants to play the Striker?  Can a four Striker party work?  If it can, then what the fuck is the point of having niches?

Yes, but the game has *always* been built around four (maybe fewer earlier) niches. Nothing about that implies *more* niche protection. And I and others have noted examples of how there will be less, mostly healing is going to be less of a problem.

QuoteOne guy played a Factotum with awesome Use Magic Device skill, so we bought him wands of cure magic -- and then he'd roll shit for rounds on end, and it would end up taking five rounds for him to get out a cure light wounds.

Get yourself an artificer and abuse the custom item creation rules at the back of the DMG. Starting at 6th level or so, a wand of infinite cure lights is a worthwhile investment. *Or* get yourself that same item for a warlock with the deceive item class feature and max ranks in umd.

QuoteAnother played a Wu Jen/Spirit Shaman who was basically completely useless in every way.  We we're 7th level, and all he could contribute to combat was magic missiles and cure lights.

This characters' build doesn't suck strictly because he's a spirit shaman... it sucks because he tried to split his spellcasting levels. And between classes with different key abilities at that! Learn that man to play as an illumian and take Aeshkrau so he can cast based on constitution and single class as a spirit shaman. Then give him feats so he can wear heavy armor. In any case, this happened because someone who had no business multiclassing multiclassed, and has more to do with "rules mastery" than "niche protection."  

QuoteYeah, part of the problem was that the GM kinda sucked ass and refused to take our limitations into account (he said it was our fault for not playing into the niches).  But part of the problem is that the game is so built around the Wizard, Warrior, Cleric, Rogue dynamic that our group of non-standard characters couldn't compete.

See... that has less to do with niche protection and more to do with failed powergamers vs. a lameass GM. No amount of niche protection/absence thereof is going to fix a game with a shitty GM.

Quote from: SigmundOne, I didn't say never, I said almost never.

Two, you just listed about the only exceptions in the whole fucking genre, and even then they're not exactly the same, as you yourself point out.

Yeah, one of which happens to be the most popular supergroup of all time (and yes, I'm referring to the Bat Clan).

QuoteAlso in the JLA are peeps like Wonder Woman, kinda different than Superman.

Yeah, she needs her invisible jet to fly.  

QuoteGreen Arrow, not really a strong man.

Correct.  He's is however exactly like Batman in every respect, except he has a bow.

QuoteHow about ya take your sarcasm and go asspound yourself with it.

How about you just admit it was dumb argument?  That seems far more productive.

Quote from: beejazzGet yourself an artificer and abuse the custom item creation rules at the back of the DMG. Starting at 6th level or so, a wand of infinite cure lights is a worthwhile investment. *Or* get yourself that same item for a warlock with the deceive item class feature and max ranks in umd.

Not my character.  Don't have any sway in what the other guy plays.  In fact, he tends to get right pissed off when I try to tell him how to play.  Funny that.

QuoteThis characters' build doesn't suck strictly because he's a spirit shaman... it sucks because he tried to split his spellcasting levels. And between classes with different key abilities at that! Learn that man to play as an illumian and take Aeshkrau so he can cast based on constitution and single class as a spirit shaman. Then give him feats so he can wear heavy armor. In any case, this happened because someone who had no business multiclassing multiclassed, and has more to do with "rules mastery" than "niche protection."  

I love how your advice is basically to tell my friends they're doing it wrong.  I will assume from this advice that you don't actually have any friends, or the friends you do have all think you're a controlling, know-it-all asshole.

I forgot to mention that the wu-jen/shaman is one of those monkey creatures from Oriental Adventures.  The guy playing him doesn't give a shit about min/maxing, or making an effective build.  Not really much I can do about it, except tell one of my best and oldest friends that he's a bad player and that my fun is so much more right than his.

But yeah, dude, you're totally right.  If I built their characters for them, our party would kick some fucking ass.  I mean, the sole reason we've survived as long as we have is because my Knight is as bad-ass as they get.

But if I designed their characters for them, they'd be my characters.

Quote from: JackalopeYou have four niches, five players.  That means two players, at the least, are going to be in the same niche.  Which undermines the whole point of niche protection in the first place: keeping players from stepping on each other's toes.

I went out searching Google to see if there was any kind of a consensus about what the "whole point of niche protection" is, and it turns out this thread is hit #1. :cool:

So, it behooves me to make my case right here and now. Niche "protection" is only half of the niche formula; the other half being niche or role definition, which defines standard activities in your adventure. This is most useful when you are dealing with published adventures.

I think in a game that assumes a certain "niche set", if all your niche are filled, the purpose of niche protection is already met. Adding more participants doesn't "undermine niche protection" so much that niche protection has done all it can do. Then you have to resort to other methods to distinguish characters, such as classes that don't strictly fulfill a niche.

QuoteAnd potions/wands turns out to be a shitty substitute, because of the cost of buying magic.  In the most recent campaign I played in, no one wanted to play the cleric.

I've seen it work in several games.

QuoteAnother played a Wu Jen/Spirit Shaman who was basically completely useless in every way.

A dual divine/arcane in 3.5 without bridge class? Color me unsurprised. Not sure what the relevance is to niche protection, though.

I agree that there isn't the same amount of niche protection in Super Hero comics / TV / movies / games (unless you want "niche" to mean "what makes them unique).  There are lots of examples of Super Hero teams with more than one strong guy, or flyer, or blaster, or fighter.

Any game that will let you have totally random power generation (MSH) means you can easily have more than one player with the same schtick.

(I think there are some versions of Wonder Woman where she can fly)

JLA is entertaining, despite there being 5 superman-like characters, because the author makes it entertaining.  I wouldn't play in a game where we were 5 kryptonians on earth if there wasn't some other way to be different (skills?).  Personalities are always different, but that isn't much of a game to me.  I could see some groups doing that, however.

In D&D 3.x, additional space is made in niches as the party grows in size.  The thing is, the classes aren't 100% in each niche.  The rogue is a striker, but can fill in as a tank better than a mage can.  The first niche that usually gains space is the tank.  Next is usually a healer, followed by a blaster.

Of course, 3.x also has 2 different groups of niches, one for combat and one for skills.  You can be a striker/face or a striker/sneaker with no impact on the striker.

Why do people keep referrencing books, movies, etc... when talking about games?  Even if you're simulating a genre, you're still playing a game.  Does anyone regularly play games where everyone is very mechanically similar and nobody has a specialty of their own?

Quote from: JackalopeNot my character.  Don't have any sway in what the other guy plays.  In fact, he tends to get right pissed off when I try to tell him how to play.  Funny that.

I love how your advice is basically to tell my friends they're doing it wrong.  I will assume from this advice that you don't actually have any friends, or the friends you do have all think you're a controlling, know-it-all asshole.

I forgot to mention that the wu-jen/shaman is one of those monkey creatures from Oriental Adventures.  The guy playing him doesn't give a shit about min/maxing, or making an effective build.  Not really much I can do about it, except tell one of my best and oldest friends that he's a bad player and that my fun is so much more right than his.

But yeah, dude, you're totally right.  If I built their characters for them, our party would kick some fucking ass.  I mean, the sole reason we've survived as long as we have is because my Knight is as bad-ass as they get.

But if I designed their characters for them, they'd be my characters.

Actually it isn't so much advice as a demonstration that friggin' anyone and everyone can heal. To list... you know... your own example... every. single. arcane caster. heals. You mentioned yourself one guy was a spirit shaman, so I assume you have Complete Divine? You're saying that arcane casters can't heal even so? Even though in that same book there's Arcane Domain, which can turn any and every arcane caster into a healer faster than you can say "healing domain?" So... yeah... you can play as a necromancer healer. Or whatever other crazy combo you can think of.

Now, if you wanted to (say) complain that natural healing or mundane use of the heal skill is gimped, I'm right with you. But clerics aren't the only healers, and can be equaled or surpassed in that role by members of other classes.

As for "telling your friends they're doing it wrong." Close but no. If your GM wants to run a combat heavy game (sounds like it from your description) he should say right off the bat "Hey guys, let's have some characters who are able to find their ass with two hands." And if the players just want to do some more laid back gonzo whatever, they might say as much to the GM. And if you are having problems with the other players or the GM, I would strongly advise that you tell them, rather than bitch to me about it. 'Cause... you know... there's really only so much I can do from here.

Quote from: JackalopeYeah, one of which happens to be the most popular supergroup of all time (and yes, I'm referring to the Bat Clan).



Yeah, she needs her invisible jet to fly.  



Correct.  He's is however exactly like Batman in every respect, except he has a bow.



How about you just admit it was dumb argument?  That seems far more productive.

That's because you're apparently an idiot, so any argument that doesn't conform to your fantasy-world view of superheroes (and who knows what else) is of course "dumb". So in your world any superhero who beats up bad guys is the same "niche". Gotcha. It doesn't matter if they use fists, exploding arrows, golden lassos, ray beams out of their eyes, or chocolate pies, it's all the same, right? And of course we're still using only one group out of all the superhero universes and stories to illustrate our fantasy-world point, apparently just to fuck with a post made ages ago in a thread that's long since passed it by. Good job, fantasy-world boy... making the place safe.

Quote from: StuartI agree that there isn't the same amount of niche protection in Super Hero comics / TV / movies / games (unless you want "niche" to mean "what makes them unique).  There are lots of examples of Super Hero teams with more than one strong guy, or flyer, or blaster, or fighter.

Any game that will let you have totally random power generation (MSH) means you can easily have more than one player with the same schtick.

(I think there are some versions of Wonder Woman where she can fly)

Indeed, but even similar heroes have separate powers that set them apart somewhat, like WW being able to force people to tell the truth with her golden-lasso bondage gear, which superman is fortunately lacking. There are a great many heroes with super-strength, but I wouldn't exactly call superman, wonder woman, hulk, and spiderman all the same niche. On the flip side, it's for sure they ain't gonna be the same niches that ya find in other genres.

Quote from: KingSpoomWhy do people keep referrencing books, movies, etc... when talking about games?  Even if you're simulating a genre, you're still playing a game.  Does anyone regularly play games where everyone is very mechanically similar and nobody has a specialty of their own?

Many (most?) boardgames have everyone being "mechanically similar".

I think there's an important distinction as well between characters each having a speciality, and not having any overlap in niches like "Fighter", "Shooter" or "Thinker".

Even a game of B/X D&D with 4 fighters will in all likelihood have 4 *different* fighters.

Quote from: StuartMany (most?) boardgames have everyone being "mechanically similar".

I think there's an important distinction as well between characters each having a speciality, and not having any overlap in niches like "Fighter", "Shooter" or "Thinker".

Any RPGs?

I agree that there's a difference.  To me, there will always be an overlap in niches.  You have your cleric who can heal and tank, and you have your favored soul who is less apt to tanking, but still heals (I forget the actual benefit... maybe the sorcerer-style spell slots).

Quote from: SigmundThat's because you're apparently an idiot, so any argument that doesn't conform to your fantasy-world view of superheroes (and who knows what else) is of course "dumb". So in your world any superhero who beats up bad guys is the same "niche". Gotcha.

No, not quite.  But any hero whose essential power set is Super Strength and Invulnerability falls into the niche of Brick.  And Wonder Woman is every bit a Brick as Superman is.  They're in the same niche.  A few extra flavor powers don't change that fact.

You have heard that term, right?  Brick?  It's one of the classic superheroic niches.

QuoteIt doesn't matter if they use fists, exploding arrows, golden lassos, ray beams out of their eyes, or chocolate pies, it's all the same, right? And of course we're still using only one group out of all the superhero universes and stories to illustrate our fantasy-world point, apparently just to fuck with a post made ages ago in a thread that's long since passed it by. Good job, fantasy-world boy... making the place safe.

Wow, someone's panties are all bunched up.

Dude, you said that superhero groups almost never have character who overlap in niches, and that's simply not the case, as I illustrated with the Batman Family, which is the single most prominent team of supers ever, having starred in multiple comics, television shows, and several movies.  That's all.  You getting all worked up about it only makes you look like a doofus.

You're right, there are many superteams where all the heroes have different powers and fill very different niches.  The Fantastic Four are a perfect example.  But niche protection is not an essentially quality of superteams, and a team can still be very interesting even if every character in has the exact same set of power, as evidenced by the mega-popularity of the bat-squad featuring Batman, Robin, Batgirl and Nightwing.