Quote from: jhkim;1105841I'd like to know about what your opinion is on what Cloyer Bulse said.



Do you have any thoughts on the whole of this?

Personally, I disagree with Cloyer Bulse thoroughly. I think that blending the gender hierarchies is a functional and good part of modern society that also includes democracy, civil rights, and gender equality. I think that there should be rules to reduce bullying and harassing in male-only spaces. I disagree that feminists as a whole demand that men socialize according to female rules. Notably, the reason why "mean girl" cliques is a recognizable trope is because of feminist critiques of that behavior -- notably Rachel Wiseman's book, which the 2004 movie "Mean Girls" was based on. We should be improving behavior in all of male-only, female-only, and mixed-gender spaces -- which includes reducing harassment and bullying.

For starters I don't think there are gender hierarchies, not in the sense him and you are using the term.

I would like to know what he and you call bullying and harassment before talking on it. (because now a days buddy ribbing buddy is termed bullying by many.

Feel free to open a thread on pundie's forum so we can talk about feminists and their demands.

Mean Girls Cliques were a thing well before any feminist wrote about it, and I bet you even before the gender integration of schools women talked about it.

We should kemosabe? Yo do what you want and I'll do like wise, I don't find that my groups of friends need any major behavior adjustment, which is why they are my friends.

And before you keep talking about harassment and bullying you need to define those terms and give a few examples of what you consider falls into them. Best done in Pundies forum.

Quote from: jhkim;1105812Bullying and harassment among men might well be natural and around for millenia -- but that doesn't make them a good thing.

It's a phenomenally good thing. It toughens the weak or weeds them out. Bullying and harassment teach toughness, resilience and the drive to fight back and succeed, and swiftly identifies the weak who either learn to stand or get ostracized. Without it, we get the current generations full of weaklings.

Quote from: jhkim;1105812f a disabled man joins our group, maybe the evolutionary instinct is to weed him out by bullying him until he breaks -- but that's not behavior I want in my game.

Most disabled people either shatter or become steel. Disabled who maneuver outside their homes are usually tough hombres. There's nothing any bullying can do that compares to challenge of living 24/7/365 with a real disability (not the online wankery "disabilities").

Quote from: jhkim;1105841Do you have any thoughts on the whole of this?

Personally, I disagree with Cloyer Bulse thoroughly.

The whole tough love approach is just a paper-thin excuse for bullying. Because guess what? Bullying feels good, it makes you feel superior to the so-called useless, dependent males. And that is the actual motivation: to get a mini-rush yourself at the expense of creating misery for someone you don't give a flying fuck about.

Quote from: jhkim;1105841I think that there should be rules to reduce bullying and harassing in male-only spaces.

That doesn't work. Laws without law-enforcement are dysfunctional. And where do you get any force to enforce those rules for all those situations in which people meet (irrespective of gender)? What would be necessary is building consensus and bringing down society's weight of numbers down on bullies. The good news is this: just as bullies recognize potential 'soft' targets by sight, other people can recognize would-be bullies by sight alone.

But then again here's the rub: who defines what bullying is? As we can see on twitter, it lends itself to abuse - you just postulate that you've been bullied and bring down the twitter mob on people who didn't actually bully you, just have a different political outlook. While they conveniently overlook your own, actual bullying.

Bottom line: bullying will not go away because human beings have a need to feel superior to other people, to varying degrees.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1105908It's a phenomenally good thing. It toughens the weak or weeds them out. Bullying and harassment teach toughness, resilience and the drive to fight back and succeed, and swiftly identifies the weak who either learn to stand or get ostracized. Without it, we get the current generations full of weaklings.

You're not entirely wrong, just mostly.

So, when you (NOT refering to you personally here) go out on a date and I break into your home, stealing all your stuff - that's not theft/burglary. It's me teaching you to be smarter in protecting your worldly possessions instead; I'm just weeding out the dumbfucks here. Let them eat cake.

On the other hand, and this is why I think you're only mostly wrong here, there is value in desensitization. The crucial part that woke people get wrong is that life itself doesn't give a damn about safe spaces. You can shout, scream and make a fuss all you want - life will still take away people you care about from you. And more.

Twitter mobs are useless in dealing with the human predicament.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1105940The whole tough love approach is just a paper-thin excuse for bullying.

Not in the slightest.

Tough love and bullying aren't even in the same universe.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1105940So, when you (NOT refering to you personally here) go out on a date and I break into your home, stealing all your stuff - that's not theft/burglary. It's me teaching you to be smarter in protecting your worldly possessions instead; I'm just weeding out the dumbfucks here. Let them eat cake.

That's EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

We didn't curb theft and burglarly with hugs, crayons and talking about feelings. We curbed break-ins by giving guns and cars to cops to patrol neighborhoods with the power to murder people for stealing. We buy and train guard dogs with sharp teeth to fuck up anybody who enters the house when we're out on a date. We invented security cameras to help ensure that thieves would be caught and punished by being thrown in prison hellpits for years of their lives.

AKA, we used "bullying" and "harassment" to curb burglars.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1105940On the other hand, and this is why I think you're only mostly wrong here, there is value in desensitization. The crucial part that woke people get wrong is that life itself doesn't give a damn about safe spaces. You can shout, scream and make a fuss all you want - life will still take away people you care about from you. And more.

Exactly. Life is unfair and always will be.

Tough love is teaching future generations how to navigate this unfair life. And the male human animal especially need "bullying" and "harassment" to harden enough to navigate the world. We're upright beasts, not elves.

There's no love whatsoever in telling a bullied child to retreat to safe space. If you care about that child, you send that kid back into the fray with the knowledge they alone choose their emotional response to other people's words and with your permission to bash bullies in the nuts.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1105864And before you keep talking about harassment and bullying you need to define those terms and give a few examples of what you consider falls into them. Best done in Pundies forum.

OK, sounds good. Pundit just approved the thread, it's here:

https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?41178-Gendered-behavior-bullying-and-feminism

I agree with GeekyBugle that the non-RPG-related talk about bullying is best discussed over there.

Quote from: Crimhthan;1105388Hey Pundit, I had not listened to any of your podcast before, (I don't normally listen to any podcasts by anyone, they are too time consuming.) but if you turned all of your podcasts into blog posts, then I would be inclined to read them all.

I had a blog for nearly 15 years, I still have it though I no longer post there daily. People stopped wanting to read blogs. They want video now. Its easier to hear someone talking while you do other stuff than to have to sit down and read.

People who want to talk about topics related to bullying, or gender, or BDSM that is NOT related to the RPG hobby, don't do it here. This is a thread only to talk about the context of the RPG hobby.

Quote from: Bren;1105689If having guns prevented people from being assholes we'd be living in a completely different country. Clearly having guns around doesn't prevent people from being assholes. It just gives you armed assholes. Which is no improvement at all.

An asshole is an asshole regardless of being armed or not. Nor doesn't prevent people from being assholes.

Quote from: Cloyer Bulse;1105712It used to be that at college dorms women ... Let us men have our own fun.

Oh Jesus where to begin.

1) Your shitposting misogyny is terrible. It's way too obvious. I'm guessing you're a SJW agitator trying to prove that no one here on the RPGsite would disagree with you. Let me help with that...
2) You're recounting of why curfews no longer apply only to men is not only a complete fabrication, but drowning in 10' of hyperbole.
3) I love your 50+ year old philosophy on "men" activities vs. "women" activities. It's cute how you still believe all that shit your dumbass grandpa told you.

Nine posts on theRPGsite of male dominance, male roles, male frolicking, male exclusive... lol. You are hilariously bad at this. Also, your beliefs are reprehensible. But I'm sure all the women who've denied you or left you already told you that. (that, for the sleeping masses in the cheap seats is where I explicitly disagree with you. On theRPGsite of all places.)

-------------- back to RPG land! --------------------

I know personally that if someone pulled out an x-card and embarrassed me and then tossed a heaping portion of melodrama on top; completely derailing the game, the evening and possibly the entire group - I would be offended. I would be horrified frankly. I appreciate where these people's hearts are at. They don't want people to be harmed. But the X-card goes way too far. So does the idea that I have to screw 5 people at my table so 1 person can be safe. Adults generally don't have these problems.

This consent PDF is still filled with pretentious nonsense BUT if it helps people have a fucking adult conversation before they game, I'm of the feeling it would be well worth the price. (:-P). I like Monte Cook and Shanna Germaine. I don't believe they have some "agenda" here other than to capitalize on all the hand-wringing over-reaction to the boogey-man pervert who is running the Hentai up in their COZ-vention.

Fundamentally, there is no good reason to jump into a game without discussing any subject matter issues you may have. none. I shouldn't have to guess what your secret land mines are. I shouldn't stumble across your severe arachnophobia during a game. I'm not your fucking therapist. I'm just some shmo GM trying to run a fun game and have fun with other gamers. I'm not qualified to diagnose you, or help you through emotional trauma nor should you ever trust me to. Just like I don't show up naked to the game because I can't find shirts to wrap around my chub, you shouldn't show up with your shit unhandled.

Handle your shit. Then make time for fun.

Quote from: trechriron;1106162Oh Jesus where to begin.

1) Your shitposting misogyny is terrible. It's way too obvious. I'm guessing you're a SJW agitator trying to prove that no one here on the RPGsite would disagree with you. Let me help with that...
2) You're recounting of why curfews no longer apply only to men is not only a complete fabrication, but drowning in 10' of hyperbole.
3) I love your 50+ year old philosophy on "men" activities vs. "women" activities. It's cute how you still believe all that shit your dumbass grandpa told you.

Nine posts on theRPGsite of male dominance, male roles, male frolicking, male exclusive... lol. You are hilariously bad at this. Also, your beliefs are reprehensible. But I'm sure all the women who've denied you or left you already told you that. (that, for the sleeping masses in the cheap seats is where I explicitly disagree with you. On theRPGsite of all places.)

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Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1105164Secondly, writers, filmmakers, comic book authors don't put up a lot of information what to expect from their creative works in advance either. You quickly get a sense what to expect in Game of Thrones but not much advance warning. In RPGs, it should be enough to give a quick campaign outline and maybe something like "18+ content". You have no right for more information from me just because I don't have the same clout as HBO.

100% this, and this approach has worked perfectly well for rpgs for decades. Nothing more is necessary or desirable.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1105692I see tools as the X-Card and the Consent checklist more as methods of starting a conversation about content in RPG sessions. The conversation is important to have.

No, it's fucking not.  

First, there is no problem with "consent" in gaming.  Gaming is an inherently consenting activity.  No one is kidnapping anyone and forcing them to roll dice against their will.  No one is keeping anyone at a table if they decide they're not having fun.  This is a fake, bullshit, made-up problem.  So why are we talking about it?  Because the people insisting we "need to have a conversation about consent in gaming" have an agenda.  That agenda isn't helping all the poor victims of non-consensual gaming, because there aren't any such victims.  

Look, I'm sure you mean well.  I'm sure most of the people who are "concerned" about this and just want to be "nice people" and "allies" or whatever mean well, but you being "useful idiots".  

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiotIn political jargon, a useful idiot is a derogatory term for a person perceived as propagandizing for a cause without fully comprehending the cause's goals, and who is cynically used by the cause's leaders. The term was originally used during the Cold War to describe non-communists regarded as susceptible to communist propaganda and manipulation

This is an explicitly political agenda.  It's about control.  It's partially about control of the game itself, but more than that its about control of GAMING.  More than a language control mechanism, it's a sorting mechanism. Like the Party's "2+2=5" from 1984, adherence to the "consent doctrine" - that RPGs are unsafe spaces full of evil bad-think guys and poor victims that need protection, signals that you are on the "good side", either as a partisan or at least as a bystander.  If, on the other hand, you reject it or horror of horrors, actively resist, this means you are one of the "bad people" and should be UN-personed.  No more conventions for you.  No more big-name internet forums.  No more open tables.  Soon,  if all goes according to plan, no more big-shop digital publication.   You should go hide in your basement, with the other troglodytes.   This is the natural outgrowth of "the personal is political".  There is no escape from the ideological.  There is no such thing as "harmless fun".  "Fun" must be analyzed and the participants sorted into "victim" and "oppressor".  

But there is some reason to hope.  Just like attempting to use media manipulation against video-gamers in the digital age is a bad strategy, telling RPG players over the age of 30 that they need to go back to their basements and live in some kind of underground society is fucking hilarious. Please, please, don't throw me in that briar patch, Brer Fox!

Quote from: Brendan;1106786No, it's fucking not.  

First, there is no problem with "consent" in gaming.  Gaming is an inherently consenting activity.  No one is kidnapping anyone and forcing them to roll dice against their will.  No one is keeping anyone at a table if they decide they're not having fun.  This is a fake, bullshit, made-up problem.  So why are we talking about it?  Because the people insisting we "need to have a conversation about consent in gaming" have an agenda.  That agenda isn't helping all the poor victims of non-consensual gaming, because there aren't any such victims.  

Look, I'm sure you mean well.  I'm sure most of the people who are "concerned" about this and just want to be "nice people" and "allies" or whatever mean well, but you being "useful idiots".  



This is an explicitly political agenda.  It's about control.  It's partially about control of the game itself, but more than that its about control of GAMING.  More than a language control mechanism, it's a sorting mechanism. Like the Party's "2+2=5" from 1984, adherence to the "consent doctrine" - that RPGs are unsafe spaces full of evil bad-think guys and poor victims that need protection, signals that you are on the "good side", either as a partisan or at least as a bystander.  If, on the other hand, you reject it or horror of horrors, actively resist, this means you are one of the "bad people" and should be UN-personed.  No more conventions for you.  No more big-name internet forums.  No more open tables.  Soon,  if all goes according to plan, no more big-shop digital publication.   You should go hide in your basement, with the other troglodytes.   This is the natural outgrowth of "the personal is political".  There is no escape from the ideological.  There is no such thing as "harmless fun".  "Fun" must be analyzed and the participants sorted into "victim" and "oppressor".  

But there is some reason to hope.  Just like attempting to use media manipulation against video-gamers in the digital age is a bad strategy, telling RPG players over the age of 30 that they need to go back to their basements and live in some kind of underground society is fucking hilarious. Please, please, don't throw me in that briar patch, Brer Fox!

Greetings!

EXCELLENT, BRENDAN!!!!!

Your analysis is razor-sharp, and perfect. I often seek to explain to people--gamers, like us--what the SJW's agenda is--as well as the jibbering Socialist's like AOC and Bernie amongst others in the political arena--is all about, and where their ideological fountain comes from. It all goes back to Alinsky's Rules For Radicals and Communism. It's all about infiltrating society, at every level, in every area, causing strife and dissension, brainwashing everyone with Communist propaganda, creating "problems" that they conveniently have the right solution to, and eventually overthrowing society to become a Communist/Globalist State. Within Communist and Socialist manuals and documents, they explain exactly how they go about accomplishing all of these goals, and what the purposes of each such endeavor is for, and each such area of focus contributes to their larger agenda.

And yet, we have so many people within our society--and fellow gamers within our hobby--that insist that the SJW's just have innocent motives, and an innocent difference in opinion on how to approach things.

There is nothing innocent about it, brother!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1106817And yet, we have so many people within our society--and fellow gamers within our hobby--that insist that the SJW's just have innocent motives, and an innocent difference in opinion on how to approach things.

There is nothing innocent about it, brother!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Thanks Shark!  My grandfather escaped the USSR.  I don't want my kids to have to learn the lessons of communism the hard way.

Quote from: Darrin KelleyI see tools as the X-Card and the Consent checklist more as methods of starting a conversation about content in RPG sessions. The conversation is important to have.

Quote from: Brendan;1106786This is a fake, bullshit, made-up problem.  So why are we talking about it?  Because the people insisting we "need to have a conversation about consent in gaming" have an agenda.  That agenda isn't helping all the poor victims of non-consensual gaming, because there aren't any such victims.

Quote from: SHARK;1106817It's all about infiltrating society, at every level, in every area, causing strife and dissension, brainwashing everyone with Communist propaganda, creating "problems" that they conveniently have the right solution to, and eventually overthrowing society to become a Communist/Globalist State. Within Communist and Socialist manuals and documents, they explain exactly how they go about accomplishing all of these goals, and what the purposes of each such endeavor is for, and each such area of focus contributes to their larger agenda.

OK, as I've mentioned earlier, I don't see the X-card as being necessary. I agree with Brendan that RPGs don't have a consent problem.

That said, I really don't think that gamers advocating the X-card are secretly trying to overthrow society to become a Communist/Globalist State. That seems like a far more ridiculous accusation than the opposing claims.

I game with a lot of people who advocate for the X-card. For example, I'm going to Big Bad Con in two weeks, which has "Safety Tools" listed with each of the events. I play games using the X-card all the time. I am absolutely certain that none of these people are planning this supposed overthrow.