TheRPGSite

The new Ravenloft novel shows that no one involved knows anything about Heroic Fantasy or Victorian Horror, and makes a woke mockery of the setting. 

Greetings!

Good video, Pundit! Yeah, the Woke morons at WOTC have absolutely corrupted the D&D game. They have zero respect for the game's foundations, history, or essential game themes.

It's all about Seattle 2024.

Oh, and yes. The artwork on the novel is terrible, but perfectly in-keeping with the rest of WOTC's recent art direction. Full of Woke stupidity and BS.

These people are empty, shallow husks inside, and want everyone else to be as crushed in despair and misery as they are.

Keep up the good work, Pundit!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The cover for this book is absolutely not what I am looking for with Ravenloft. Folks should google the cover for Heart of Midnight, Vampire of the Mist, Knight of the Black Rose, etc just to see how much different the vibe was for the older novels

Pundit, you're just whoring for outrage and not even taking a moment to consider the context. I say this after watching the video.

The cover makes more sense if you read the blurb on it:

Five strangers armed with steel and magic awaken in a mist-shrouded land, with no memory of how they arrived: Rotrog, a prideful orcish wizard; Chivarion, a sardonic drow barbarian; Alishai, an embittered tiefling paladin; Kah, a skittish kenku cleric; and Fielle, a sunny human artificer.

The point is that these characters are from outside of Ravenloft and pulled into it. They come from a more "typical" D&D world (where oddball characters like these have been commonplace for over a decade, and they don't fit into the Demiplane, at least initially. This has been the case with many Ravenloft experiences and is not new to this novel.

Now it would certainly be fitting if these characters are not accepted by the denizens of Barovia, but neither of us have read the novel (and I don't really intend to), so we'll have to wait to see if that is the case.

Quote from: HappyDaze on October 30, 2024, 01:40:57 AMFive strangers armed with steel and magic awaken in a mist-shrouded land, with no memory of how they arrived: Rotrog, a prideful orcish wizard; Chivarion, a sardonic drow barbarian; Alishai, an embittered tiefling paladin; Kah, a skittish kenku cleric; and Fielle, a sunny human artificer.

Sounds like they cribbed notes from a Puffin Forest video. ahem.

Never heard of the author before. Heirs of Strahd? Really? Whats next? Love Babies of Soth?

Quote from: HappyDaze on October 30, 2024, 01:40:57 AMPundit, you're just whoring for outrage and not even taking a moment to consider the context. I say this after watching the video.

The cover makes more sense if you read the blurb on it:

Five strangers armed with steel and magic awaken in a mist-shrouded land, with no memory of how they arrived: Rotrog, a prideful orcish wizard; Chivarion, a sardonic drow barbarian; Alishai, an embittered tiefling paladin; Kah, a skittish kenku cleric; and Fielle, a sunny human artificer.

The point is that these characters are from outside of Ravenloft and pulled into it. They come from a more "typical" D&D world (where oddball characters like these have been commonplace for over a decade, and they don't fit into the Demiplane, at least initially. This has been the case with many Ravenloft experiences and is not new to this novel.

Now it would certainly be fitting if these characters are not accepted by the denizens of Barovia, but neither of us have read the novel (and I don't really intend to), so we'll have to wait to see if that is the case.

I literally did read the very same blurb in the video. Proves you didn't watch, I guess. It changes nothing; you can't have a Victorian Horror setting where the characters are half-monster hipster narcissists. I mean, sure, if the novel was about how they all get horribly massacred or suffer the consequences of their corrupt lives, that could technically count, but I'm 99.9% sure that's not how the novel will go. Instead they'll use the power of wokeness and inclusion to defeat the evil patriarchal racist transphobe setting.

>>Five strangers armed with steel and magic awaken in a mist-shrouded land, with no memory of how they arrived: Rotrog, a prideful orcish wizard; Chivarion, a sardonic drow barbarian; Alishai, an embittered tiefling paladin; Kah, a skittish kenku cleric; and Fielle, a sunny human artificer.<<

While this is utterly laughable, I never felt TSR had any real grasp of Victorian Horror either. It's not Gnostic, Evil is not Strongest, the Dark Powers make no sense within that Christian moral frame. The horror is in estrangement from God, not that Satan is stronger than God.

Quote from: HappyDaze on October 30, 2024, 01:40:57 AMThe point is that these characters are from outside of Ravenloft and pulled into it. They come from a more "typical" D&D world (where oddball characters like these have been commonplace for over a decade, and they don't fit into the Demiplane, at least initially. This has been the case with many Ravenloft experiences and is not new to this novel.

Now it would certainly be fitting if these characters are not accepted by the denizens of Barovia, but neither of us have read the novel (and I don't really intend to), so we'll have to wait to see if that is the case.

The premise of most Ravenloft novels and most early Ravenloft campaigns were characters pulled in from regular settings, but they still had sinister covers that fit the genre. The problem is this looks like the cover of a a horror comedy or post 2000s TV show with snarky writing, or modern urban fantasy. The tone, and the aesthetics are just all off for Ravenloft (at least for how a lot of people see the setting).

Certainly the book itself could be different in tone than the art, but the blurb seems like it is about the characters learning to be friends. It is very twee sounding

Quote from: HappyDaze on October 30, 2024, 01:40:57 AMPundit, you're just whoring for outrage and not even taking a moment to consider the context. I say this after watching the video.

I don't think Pundit is being a grumpy outlier here. People are reacting negatively to this cover all over, not just here

Quote from: S'mon on October 30, 2024, 05:33:19 AMWhile this is utterly laughable, I never felt TSR had any real grasp of Victorian Horror either. It's not Gnostic, Evil is not Strongest, the Dark Powers make no sense within that Christian moral frame. The horror is in estrangement from God, not that Satan is stronger than God.

   This is one of the philosophical problems with Ravenloft, agreed, although WotC has made it worse by adding the "most people are soulless". These days, I tend to favor it as 'Twilight Zone' spots in a regular world. You can square the circle by leaning into the "Evil cannot make, it can only mock" approach of having the domains be shadowy copies of locations in the real world.

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 30, 2024, 07:47:19 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on October 30, 2024, 01:40:57 AMPundit, you're just whoring for outrage and not even taking a moment to consider the context. I say this after watching the video.

I don't think Pundit is being a grumpy outlier here. People are reacting negatively to this cover all over, not just here

Exactly, it's a terrible cover. With a Benetton commercial cast as the PC's.

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 30, 2024, 02:19:11 AMI literally did read the very same blurb in the video. Proves you didn't watch, I guess.

I must have missed that in your "weave" -- this certainly wasn't one of your better videos.

I like the cover art, because it really shows how different modern D&D is from classical fantasy. It's been interesting to watch "fantasy" change from the early 80's up to today. From Lord of the Rings, to World of Warcraft, to I guess the Mercer Effect and Seattle/woke influence.

Quote from: S'mon on October 30, 2024, 05:33:19 AM>>Five strangers armed with steel and magic awaken in a mist-shrouded land, with no memory of how they arrived: Rotrog, a prideful orcish wizard; Chivarion, a sardonic drow barbarian; Alishai, an embittered tiefling paladin; Kah, a skittish kenku cleric; and Fielle, a sunny human artificer.<<

While this is utterly laughable, I never felt TSR had any real grasp of Victorian Horror either. It's not Gnostic, Evil is not Strongest, the Dark Powers make no sense within that Christian moral frame. The horror is in estrangement from God, not that Satan is stronger than God.

The dark powers were never defined though. They could have been anything (from God, to the Devil, to D&D gods or even powerful spell casters). And I don't think the point was that evil was more powerful than good, it was that evil is a seductive path that changes you and warps your soul. They do establish that it is on the edge of the ethereal plan, but you could easily read it as a place like purgatory, or as a place like hell (you being in hell doesn't make satan more powerful than God). You could also run it as a world where evil is more powerful than good, satan is more powerful than God. But it also doesn't have to be an exact analog for Victorian Christianity to be heavily inspired by those things. Ravenloft worked because it took the tropes classic horror, like Frankenstein, Castle of Otranto and Dracula, and the hammer studios films, old universal movies, and filtered them into a D&D setting that was quite gameable.

Quote from: Dracones on October 30, 2024, 10:00:26 AMI like the cover art, because it really shows how different modern D&D is from classical fantasy. It's been interesting to watch "fantasy" change from the early 80's up to today. From Lord of the Rings, to World of Warcraft, to I guess the Mercer Effect and Seattle/woke influence.

The problem is Ravenloft was never classical fantasy or standard fantasy. It was a gothic horror setting. There were varying degrees of fantasy to it for sure, but the emphasis was on classic horror. During 2E it wasn't unusual for players to have unusual characters, because of Drizzt and the complete books, but Ravenloft was like the one setting that was almost all human, and anyone that wasn't human was subject to suspicion. But the bigger issue is the tone. I am struggling to find the word to describe the feel of that cover, but it is somewhere between triumphant and sassy. It just doesn't work for Ravenloft in terms of mood. Maybe the book will be great, I don't know. I know nothing about the writer. The synopsis, combined with what I know of Ravenloft under WOTC in recent years (and D&D in general lately), leads me to think is going to take a direction that I would likely not enjoy for the setting (but I must admit it really depends on what is meant by and how it executes this aspect of it:

QuoteTo survive the twisted enigmas of Strahd and his haunted home, the adventurers must confront the dark secrets in their own hearts and find a way to shift from strangers to comrades—before the mists of Barovia claim them forever.

Confronting internal darkness could definitely be in keeping with the setting (I could see it being real genuine spiritual struggles, but I think it is more likely to be something along the lines of the kinds of things Pundit mentioned in his video). If they do something like have the cheery lady be werewolf who eats the rest of that party, and Strahd uses that to turn her toward his aims, I could see that being interesting. I am not terribly interested in a party of strangers becoming friends through some kind of group therapy in the halls of Castle Ravenloft (which is more the sort of thing I am expecting it to be)

Greetings!

Everything with D&D recently from WOTC is watered-down, happy goo covered in bubblewrap. The same trends can be seen with WOTC's interpretation and presentation of Ravenloft. Everything is bright, feminine, and gooey.

I think Ravenloft needs more mind-blasting horror, more chomping teeth, blood, and fire.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 10:23:56 AMGreetings!

Everything with D&D recently from WOTC is watered-down, happy goo covered in bubblewrap. The same trends can be seen with WOTC's interpretation and presentation of Ravenloft. Everything is bright, feminine, and gooey.

I think Ravenloft needs more mind-blasting horror, more chomping teeth, blood, and fire.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Ravenloft takes inspiration from gothic romances and classic horror so I think it is find to have things like feminine elements to it. A lot of gothic horror is about very atmospheric, dreamy, sensual and subtle horror, and some of its most well known writers were women. I just think this looks too modern, too Josh Whedon or something. The attitude is all wrong

If everyone looks like a circus freak, then how does anyone know what monsters look like? Dungeoncrawling was founded on the idea that you can identify whether something is an evil monster because it looks ugly, so you don't have to stop and ask or wait to be attacked. This is occasionally subverted with the secret societies of good drow and werewolf elves, but it generally holds true the overwhelming majority of the time. When you remove that, it makes the premise look all the more arbitrary. How do the circus freak PCs know what other circus freaks are okay to slaughter without remorse and which must be treated as people without checking in advance? If WotC wants to turn D&D into Star Frontiers, then go ahead, but go the whole way rather than half-assing it.

For reference, here are some choice passages from the 2e Ravenloft setting book.

(https://i.postimg.cc/L8Mrsjy4/Raveloft1.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/3JZZgp8x/Raveloft2.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/nr3CLHxp/Raveloft5.jpg) (https://i.postimg.cc/85KSJs7K/Raveloft3.jpg) (https://i.postimg.cc/4NbTV8HH/Raveloft4.jpg)

Interesting stuff as regards what the point of the setting is supposed to be, at least in the minds of TSR at the time. It's particularly quaint to see the passage about how AD&D "when properly played" is a game about good vs. evil. I'm not sure that was ever true in practice, but it certainly isn't these days.

I include the bit about "sensuality and seduction" because that's the part of gothic horror I most seriously doubt WOTC is ever going to execute on. Even separate from any wokeness or ideological agenda, one of the clearest markers of corporate art is that it is bloodless, passionless and sterile.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on October 30, 2024, 08:46:12 AM

Quote from: S'mon on October 30, 2024, 05:33:19 AMWhile this is utterly laughable, I never felt TSR had any real grasp of Victorian Horror either. It's not Gnostic, Evil is not Strongest, the Dark Powers make no sense within that Christian moral frame. The horror is in estrangement from God, not that Satan is stronger than God.

   This is one of the philosophical problems with Ravenloft, agreed, although WotC has made it worse by adding the "most people are soulless". These days, I tend to favor it as 'Twilight Zone' spots in a regular world. You can square the circle by leaning into the "Evil cannot make, it can only mock" approach of having the domains be shadowy copies of locations in the real world.

Good ideas, thanks.

I think the original Ravenloft & Ravenloft II: The House on Gryphon Hill adventures did get the feel much more right. The situation is far more ambiguous; R2 seems to be set in a kind of version of early 19th century England. It's much closer to the Twilight Zone than later "You are in Realm of Darklord X" type of stuff. The Gothic sensibility in R2 especially is quite strong - just as (IMO) the parts of Dracula set in Whitby are far stronger than the Transylvania stuff.

Re the pic, I just love Karen from HR, over on the left.

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 10:23:56 AMEverything with D&D recently from WOTC is watered-down, happy goo covered in bubblewrap. The same trends can be seen with WOTC's interpretation and presentation of Ravenloft. Everything is bright, feminine, and gooey.

I agree.

With the caveat that recently means since 4E.

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 10:23:56 AMI think Ravenloft needs more mind-blasting horror, more chomping teeth, blood, and fire.

I disagree.

With the caveat that with gothic horror, you should be trying to achieve what Rod Serling did with The Twilight Zone and The Night Gallery. The horror shouldn't be the standard Hollywood jump scare or splatter punk, but the more personal horror of watching the standards that the character lives by subverted by the character themselves to accomplish a dubious goal. This is like a PC being offered a Ring of Three Wishes if they betray the party and kill them off or a Raise Dead is used to bring back a favorite NPC or PC and they return but as an undead or at the cost of an innocent character.

I'm not saying that this would be easy, but it would be far more satisfying to the Players.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ga792J3bkAA_Hhd?format=jpg

I thought you guys were joking about the cover...wtf is this? Not only are they all monstrosities but they're all fucking smiling, too. Are you smiling!?!? There's no smiling in Gothic Horror!!!

Whatever, not like I care. I am not a fan of Ravenloft beyond the first module which was always good for a one-shot during Halloween (or throwing PCs from a campaign into it during Halloween).

Quote from: S'mon on October 30, 2024, 11:34:09 AMRe the pic, I just love Karen from HR, over on the left.

Holy fuck, you're not kidding!

Quote from: Brad on October 30, 2024, 11:48:31 AMWhatever, not like I care. I am not a fan of Ravenloft beyond the first module which was always good for a one-shot during Halloween (or throwing PCs from a campaign into it during Halloween).

Me too. It should have stayed that way. I never understood the whole Strahd and demi-plane of Shadow thing and its popularity.

Quote from: jeff37923 on October 30, 2024, 11:44:54 AM

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 10:23:56 AMEverything with D&D recently from WOTC is watered-down, happy goo covered in bubblewrap. The same trends can be seen with WOTC's interpretation and presentation of Ravenloft. Everything is bright, feminine, and gooey.

I agree.

With the caveat that recently means since 4E.

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 10:23:56 AMI think Ravenloft needs more mind-blasting horror, more chomping teeth, blood, and fire.

I disagree.

With the caveat that with gothic horror, you should be trying to achieve what Rod Serling did with The Twilight Zone and The Night Gallery. The horror shouldn't be the standard Hollywood jump scare or splatter punk, but the more personal horror of watching the standards that the character lives by subverted by the character themselves to accomplish a dubious goal. This is like a PC being offered a Ring of Three Wishes if they betray the party and kill them off or a Raise Dead is used to bring back a favorite NPC or PC and they return but as an undead or at the cost of an innocent character.

I'm not saying that this would be easy, but it would be far more satisfying to the Players.

Greetings!

Yeah, Jeff! I remember Rod Sterling very well, with The Twilight Zone and The Night Gallery! I loved those programs!

And yes, Gothic Horror traditions are very dark, romantic, sensual, and all that. Women love it. That's all fine, of course, though honestly, Gothic Horror is firmly rooted within a 19th Century Victorian Age. So many assumptions, standards, "Tropes" and so on are absolutely anchored within a Victorian Age framework and sensibility.

The problem I have usually faced with this set-up is that my campaign world is far away from anything like the Victorian Age and the 19th Century. It is more like the 6th Century to the 12th Century, but with dragons, monsters everywhere, huge empires and armies marching. Furthermore, when you have player characters that have been fighting in dark dungeons, slaughtering hordes of savage monsters, dueling enemies on a blood-soaked and fire-scorched battlefield for 5, 6 or 8 levels, suddenly dropping them into a Gothic Horror, Victorian Age environment...doesn't really work that well. The dissonance, the cross-angled goals and assumptions, the entire mental framework, just isn't really meshing well. Even when I, for example, am more than capable of threading that needle and making various adjustments, many players simply are not prepared or interested in doing so.

And, as the DM, I also admit that seeking to implement such a Gothic Horror, Victorian Age environment into a more Dark Ages, Sword & Sorcery milieu, feels problematic and jarring, if that makes sense. There are too very different genres there, and they do not really play nice with each other. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: blackstone on October 30, 2024, 12:10:04 PM

Quote from: Brad on October 30, 2024, 11:48:31 AMWhatever, not like I care. I am not a fan of Ravenloft beyond the first module which was always good for a one-shot during Halloween (or throwing PCs from a campaign into it during Halloween).

Me too. It should have stayed that way. I never understood the whole Strahd and demi-plane of Shadow thing and its popularity.

Greetings!

Yeah, Blackstone, I sympathize. Ravenloft is of course entirely based upon Gothic Horror rooted entirely within a Victorian Age, 19th Century framework, with some Hammer film frosting thrown into the mix. If you start your campaign and game milieu with such a framework, it can work just fine. If your campaign is set in a different kind of genre or milieu, well, there are sure to be enormous problems, and much of them are simply incompatible. Ravenloft, while popular for many, is definitely not going to be appealing to others for a variety of reasons.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 10:23:56 AMGreetings!

Everything with D&D recently from WOTC is watered-down, happy goo covered in bubblewrap. The same trends can be seen with WOTC's interpretation and presentation of Ravenloft. Everything is bright, feminine, and gooey.

I think Ravenloft needs more mind-blasting horror, more chomping teeth, blood, and fire.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

For once I agree with SHARK 100%. Almost the entirety of WotC D&D products since after Xanathars has been hot woke garbage.

Mearls should have never been moved from TT D&D.

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 30, 2024, 10:50:38 AMFor reference, here are some choice passages from the 2e Ravenloft setting book.

(https://i.postimg.cc/L8Mrsjy4/Raveloft1.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/3JZZgp8x/Raveloft2.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/nr3CLHxp/Raveloft5.jpg) (https://i.postimg.cc/85KSJs7K/Raveloft3.jpg) (https://i.postimg.cc/4NbTV8HH/Raveloft4.jpg)

Interesting stuff as regards what the point of the setting is supposed to be, at least in the minds of TSR at the time. It's particularly quaint to see the passage about how AD&D "when properly played" is a game about good vs. evil. I'm not sure that was ever true in practice, but it certainly isn't these days.

I include the bit about "sensuality and seduction" because that's the part of gothic horror I most seriously doubt WOTC is ever going to execute on. Even separate from any wokeness or ideological agenda, one of the clearest markers of corporate art is that it is bloodless, passionless and sterile.

Those are very good examples

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 12:31:52 PMAnd, as the DM, I also admit that seeking to implement such a Gothic Horror, Victorian Age environment into a more Dark Ages, Sword & Sorcery milieu, feels problematic and jarring, if that makes sense. There are too very different genres there, and they do not really play nice with each other. *Laughing*

Yeah, I have the same difficulty. I mostly run Wilderlands which is VERY VERY far from Victorian Gothic tropes, and have never run Ravenloft although I'd like to run it, & especially Ravenloft 2. Ironically, "playing" with the Seaart.ai AI chatbot recently, it frequently generates quasi-Victorian damsel PCs adventuring in my Wilderlands sword & sorcery setting, which is incongruous but kind of fun. :) It doesn't do badly as a player either, there's a lot of "Amelia's bosom heaved as she.. (absolutely anything)" :D but its choices are at least as good as the average player. It sometimes misses clues, but it's good at running away when outmatched, and not thinking it needs to kill everything to win.

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 30, 2024, 10:31:49 AM

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 10:23:56 AMGreetings!

Everything with D&D recently from WOTC is watered-down, happy goo covered in bubblewrap. The same trends can be seen with WOTC's interpretation and presentation of Ravenloft. Everything is bright, feminine, and gooey.

I think Ravenloft needs more mind-blasting horror, more chomping teeth, blood, and fire.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Ravenloft takes inspiration from gothic romances and classic horror so I think it is find to have things like feminine elements to it. A lot of gothic horror is about very atmospheric, dreamy, sensual and subtle horror, and some of its most well known writers were women. I just think this looks too modern, too Josh Whedon or something. The attitude is all wrong

Greetings!

Hey there, BedrockBrendan! Yeah, the literature and stories are great fun. As a campaign setting though, I have usually found the entire Gothic Horror and Victorian Age environment, itself, as being too modern for my campaign world. My campaign milieu has always had a more Dark Ages, 6th to 12th century kind of atmosphere. Very much *NOT* in a 19th century setting. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jeff37923 on October 30, 2024, 11:44:54 AM

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 10:23:56 AMEverything with D&D recently from WOTC is watered-down, happy goo covered in bubblewrap. The same trends can be seen with WOTC's interpretation and presentation of Ravenloft. Everything is bright, feminine, and gooey.

I agree.

With the caveat that recently means since 4E.

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 10:23:56 AMI think Ravenloft needs more mind-blasting horror, more chomping teeth, blood, and fire.

I disagree.

With the caveat that with gothic horror, you should be trying to achieve what Rod Serling did with The Twilight Zone and The Night Gallery. The horror shouldn't be the standard Hollywood jump scare or splatter punk, but the more personal horror of watching the standards that the character lives by subverted by the character themselves to accomplish a dubious goal. This is like a PC being offered a Ring of Three Wishes if they betray the party and kill them off or a Raise Dead is used to bring back a favorite NPC or PC and they return but as an undead or at the cost of an innocent character.

I'm not saying that this would be easy, but it would be far more satisfying to the Players.

I agree. Ravenloft was almost antagonistic to gore and hollywood jump scares. The black box in particular has a strong point of view on this (it was antagonistic to slashers too and it wasn't until the guide to the created that they found a way to fit a Michael Myers concept into the setting)

QuoteThose are very good examples

I agree that stuff ForgottenF posted is great and shows a mature understanding of the Gothic Horror genre (maybe not such a great understanding of D&D) :D
I think it's just a bit of a shame that the whole Ravenloft as a campaign setting construction, Ravenloft as the Demiplane of Dread, is fundamentally opposed to Gothic Horror. Gothic Horror very much requires the intrusion of Evil into a nominally familiar, relatively comfortable world. Even Masque of the Red Death got it wrong by setting up a Gnostic "The Red Death is the Real Power Here" premise. Gothic Horror requires a default Good, from which Evil is a deviation, a corruption. Ravenloft reminds me of a lot of 1980s and 1990s Horror (Hellraiser is one example, The Legend of Sleepy Hollow film, or even the Bram Stoker's Dracula film) that just doesn't quite get this, because it's written by atheists and agnostics in a post-Christian moral frame. Gothic Horror, and the Hammer Horror films of the 60s and 70s, still inhabit a fundamentally Christian moral Universe.

Quote from: S'mon on October 30, 2024, 12:44:03 PM

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 12:31:52 PMAnd, as the DM, I also admit that seeking to implement such a Gothic Horror, Victorian Age environment into a more Dark Ages, Sword & Sorcery milieu, feels problematic and jarring, if that makes sense. There are too very different genres there, and they do not really play nice with each other. *Laughing*

Yeah, I have the same difficulty. I mostly run Wilderlands which is VERY VERY far from Victorian Gothic tropes, and have never run Ravenloft although I'd like to run it, & especially Ravenloft 2. Ironically, "playing" with the Seaart.ai AI chatbot recently, it frequently generates quasi-Victorian damsel PCs adventuring in my Wilderlands sword & sorcery setting, which is incongruous but kind of fun. :) It doesn't do badly as a player either, there's a lot of "Amelia's bosom heaved as she.. (absolutely anything)" :D but its choices are at least as good as the average player. It sometimes misses clues, but it's good at running away when outmatched, and not thinking it needs to kill everything to win.

Greetings!

S'mon, my friend! Indeed, there are certainly aspects and elements of the Gothic Horror genre that I especially enjoy, and much of it is very fun!

However, yeah, as a DM, from a world-building approach, as you know with your Wilderlands milieu, there are whole swaths of ideas and tropes within Victorian Age frameworks that simply do not mesh with an older, more barbaric, and savage kind of milieu.

Things like the Church being established and triumphant--instead of new, and beleagured. Things like how governments are formed and legitimized--in more savage environments, governments are secured by armies and an iron fist--not by parliaments, laws, and public popularity. The supremacy of technology, the whole "Modernism" and "Civilized" world views baked into the Victorian mindset, these kinds of deep-rooted ideas are entirely incompatible with an older, barbaric, savage environment.

It is all of those ideas that are the sinews that make up the foundations of Gothic Horror, set firmly within a Victorian Age environment. If you start taking those sinews out, plank by plank, then the whole foundation for Gothic Horror becomes diluted, and thus, dissolves entirely.

*Sigh* Yes, lamentable, I know. *Laughing* There is so much cool stuff in Gothic Horror, but not everything is appropriate in every world, based first on what kind of genre and milieu you have set up. That's how it goes though, right? We can't have everything.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 12:45:53 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 30, 2024, 10:31:49 AM

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 10:23:56 AMGreetings!

Everything with D&D recently from WOTC is watered-down, happy goo covered in bubblewrap. The same trends can be seen with WOTC's interpretation and presentation of Ravenloft. Everything is bright, feminine, and gooey.

I think Ravenloft needs more mind-blasting horror, more chomping teeth, blood, and fire.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Ravenloft takes inspiration from gothic romances and classic horror so I think it is find to have things like feminine elements to it. A lot of gothic horror is about very atmospheric, dreamy, sensual and subtle horror, and some of its most well known writers were women. I just think this looks too modern, too Josh Whedon or something. The attitude is all wrong

Greetings!

Hey there, BedrockBrendan! Yeah, the literature and stories are great fun. As a campaign setting though, I have usually found the entire Gothic Horror and Victorian Age environment, itself, as being too modern for my campaign world. My campaign milieu has always had a more Dark Ages, 6th to 12th century kind of atmosphere. Very much *NOT* in a 19th century setting. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

That is fair but I think when you are talking about Ravenloft and its fanbase, there is an expectation of gothic. However, I will say the line evolved and shifted over time. By the time you get to the Domains of Dread book, they are bringing in more fantasy elements, trying to connect it more to regular D&D, so the fanbase itself has long had a split (and DoD brought in cultural levels to clarify, so some domains were more advanced, while others weren't, though they hedged their bets by trying to stick as close to medieval or renaissance as possible). But I think the Victorian, hammer studio, classic horror sensibilities Pundit mentioned in his video were there through the entire 2E line. Just to take some of the art for example (it had a real baroque to victorian feel often)

These are not the greatest pictures from the line, but they were the first random 'not medieval' I found again on a quick peruse. And to be clear, plenty of art isn't like this. There is stuff that is medieval, renaissance, dark ages, and even stone age in the setting (as each domain is unique). But there is a lot of stuff that feels more 18th or 19th century

Quote from: S'mon on October 30, 2024, 12:57:33 PM

QuoteThose are very good examples

I agree that stuff ForgottenF posted is great and shows a mature understanding of the Gothic Horror genre (maybe not such a great understanding of D&D) :D
I think it's just a bit of a shame that the whole Ravenloft as a campaign setting construction, Ravenloft as the Demiplane of Dread, is fundamentally opposed to Gothic Horror. Gothic Horror very much requires the intrusion of Evil into a nominally familiar, relatively comfortable world. Even Masque of the Red Death got it wrong by setting up a Gnostic "The Red Death is the Real Power Here" premise. Gothic Horror requires a default Good, from which Evil is a deviation, a corruption. Ravenloft reminds me of a lot of 1980s and 1990s Horror (Hellraiser is one example, The Legend of Sleepy Hollow film, or even the Bram Stoker's Dracula film) that just doesn't quite get this, because it's written by atheists and agnostics in a post-Christian moral frame. Gothic Horror, and the Hammer Horror films of the 60s and 70s, still inhabit a fundamentally Christian moral Universe.

I don't think I agree with the second part of this. I mean sure if you are writing a gothic horror story, you probably want evil intruding on a relatively comfortable world. But Ravenloft is about taking gothic to a dungeons and dragons structure (which I think works), and about having a setting that can feature all the highlights of hammer, universal and the gothic classics. They do make a point though of having contrast. Not all of Ravenloft is meant to be dour or unhappy. But the core idea was usually character get drawn into Ravenloft from their more comfortable setting for a nightmarish adventure. I did run it as a long term campaign though when I ran it (and I ran Ravenloft from when the black box came out until well after 3E). And I was reading a ton of gothic horror at that time. I didn't really find a problem with it. Granted that is just my view. My experience with genres is everyone has a way they would like it to function at the game table, so I am not saying Ravenloft was a resounding success on Gothic for everyone. But I've never personally had the complaints about it, that I have seen from others. For me it is a perfect setting for bringing something like Mary Shelley's Frankenstein or Brides of Dracula to a D&D campaign. I thin this is especially the case with the black box

Yes, Ravenloft is a hodgepodge of genres that don't really play well together. Medieval fantasy, Victorian Gothic horror, Gnosticism... What do you suggest as a solution?

Quote from: S'mon on October 30, 2024, 12:57:33 PM

QuoteThose are very good examples

Ravenloft reminds me of a lot of 1980s and 1990s Horror (Hellraiser is one example, The Legend of Sleepy Hollow film, or even the Bram Stoker's Dracula film) that just doesn't quite get this, because it's written by atheists and agnostics in a post-Christian moral frame. Gothic Horror, and the Hammer Horror films of the 60s and 70s, still inhabit a fundamentally Christian moral Universe.

Sure, gothic horror is written within a Christian worldview, but any time you make a setting for D&D you are taking whatever worldview the source material has and filtering it into D&Disms. You can do that and still be gothic. And if you look at how the dark powers operate, they are essentially governed by Christian morality for the most part (in terms of what the dark powers respond to). To me Ravenloft feels very at home with stuff like Dante

I am not familiar with the religion of the writers, but I never got a strong atheist vibe from the Ravenloft line. There were a lot of writers though so they may have had quite a range. The black box has a very "These darn kids and their 80s slasher movies) tone to it. I do think Bram Stokers Dracula (which I like, and I think does capture a lot of the gothic mood) would be at home in Ravenloft, but so would Nosferatu or the original Dracula or Bram Stoker's novel (the black box makes reference to it all the time, and Strahd is basically Stoker's Dracula with the Jack Palance reincarnation plot layered on top). But Hellraiser never really struck me as at home in Ravenloft. There are a handful of things (like the living wall) that were a bit Barkerish. But mostly the game was contrary to that style of horror. I will say, if you read the Ravenloft line, it is generally much more old fashioned than things like Vampire and other 90s games (there was something notably uncool about Ravenloft when the line was most active)

Again, I don't think a setting explicitly has to be Christian to be Gothic (you can easily have a fantasy world with the gothic tropes that isn't based on Christian gods). But I would also re-emphasize that there is  good in Ravenloft. That is why you have characters like Van Richten. And if you look at teh stories it is based on, things like Frankenstein, or the Castle of Otranto, these are stories that paint a bleak picture of the landscape and mood. So I think having a darker tone for the setting overall, generally matches the source material.

One thing I will say is like a lot of 2E stuff, the line wasn't always consistent. They had lots of writers and some were better at staying true to the spirit of the setting than others. One notable example is in Booko of Crypts a character announces to the players "Welcome to Ravenloft" but that wasn't the actual name of the world

Ravenloft was originally built as a crossover/transitional setting for players to step into on occasion, but quickly acquired a fanbase that was interested in the setting in its own right and for long-term play. The official line moved into that in the later 2E days (under Steve Miller's editorial tenure and beyond) and in the 3E days.

"Serving two masters"--'Twilight Zone' and homeworld, D&D fantasy and Gothic horror--is something of Ravenloft's trademark, and it's no surprise that the stitches of the construct sometimes show through. :)

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on October 30, 2024, 01:28:29 PMRavenloft was originally built as a crossover/transitional setting for players to step into on occasion, but quickly acquired a fanbase that was interested in the setting in its own right and for long-term play. The official line moved into that in the later 2E days (under Steve Miller's editorial tenure and beyond) and in the 3E days.
 :)

Yeah, something that happened, at least for me, was I had already hacked it into a campaign setting before the DoD came out (because I was just running it all the time and it got old having all teh characters have to come in from other settings, even though we all knew we were playing Ravenloft). I ended up not being able to huge fan of the DoD approach. It is a really good book, and I think most people prefer that one to black box or red box. I like how it is organized. And I like that it provides more details, but because I had already built on the bare bones stuff myself, I found it more confining to use DoD, and I wasn't as into the cultural levels or the heavier fantasy elements

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on October 30, 2024, 01:28:29 PM"Serving two masters"--'Twilight Zone' and homeworld, D&D fantasy and Gothic horror--is something of Ravenloft's trademark, and it's no surprise that the stitches of the construct sometimes show through. :)

In a way, it is one of the things that made the game stay more fresh because each GM could lean into different aspects of it more or less, and even different books in the line could do so. But I think if you lean too heavily into the D&D fantasy, which I think post 2E Ravenloft did, it stops being Ravenloft for me (and some of d20 Ravenloft even leaned into White wolf, which worked even less)

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 30, 2024, 01:19:43 PMOne notable example is in Booko of Crypts a character announces to the players "Welcome to Ravenloft" but that wasn't the actual name of the world

I had that exact same problem when I was first introduced many years ago. I mistakenly thought Ravenloft was the name of the world, not a specific castle within it. Maybe they should have named the brand after the actual setting or used a different name that wasn't so confusing?

For example, you would probably never have that issue with Warhammer 40,000. Not once have I ever heard any story where a writer wrote a character introducing the galaxy as "Welcome to Warhammer 40,000."

In any case, there's nothing preventing anyone from making their own OSR take on Ravenloft. You can call the setting something gothic, like Gothland, Gothheim, Morgoth, Gothmor, Gothica, or something like that.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 30, 2024, 01:35:22 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 30, 2024, 01:19:43 PMOne notable example is in Booko of Crypts a character announces to the players "Welcome to Ravenloft" but that wasn't the actual name of the world

I had that exact same problem when I was first introduced many years ago. I mistakenly thought Ravenloft was the name of the world, not a specific castle within it. Maybe they should have named the brand after the actual setting or used a different name that wasn't so confusing?

  For a while, it was the name of the demiplane, but the line moved away from that over the years, both in and out-of-character. Later 2E and 3E tended to have most people just call it 'the world' in-character, and the more scholastic types describe as "the Land of Mists."

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on October 30, 2024, 01:48:34 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 30, 2024, 01:35:22 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 30, 2024, 01:19:43 PMOne notable example is in Booko of Crypts a character announces to the players "Welcome to Ravenloft" but that wasn't the actual name of the world

I had that exact same problem when I was first introduced many years ago. I mistakenly thought Ravenloft was the name of the world, not a specific castle within it. Maybe they should have named the brand after the actual setting or used a different name that wasn't so confusing?

  For a while, it was the name of the demiplane, but the line moved away from that over the years, both in and out-of-character. Later 2E and 3E tended to have most people just call it 'the world' in-character, and the more scholastic types describe as "the Land of Mists."

I am a little fuzzy on this, and seeking out this detail seems a bit time consuming. I could be wrong but my recollection is they were very inconsistent about this in the early part of the line in the 90s

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 30, 2024, 01:08:31 PMBut the core idea was usually character get drawn into Ravenloft from their more comfortable setting for a nightmarish adventure.

Yeah, that concept never worked for me at all, when PCs from Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk et al inhabit worlds far more overtly savage and brutal than those of Ravenloft, Ravenloft 2, or most of the domains. It's a terrible fit. Masque of the Red Death, which I bought, was certainly a better idea, but still suffered a lot from the Red Death as a kind of Demiurge. I think it was possibly TSR's fear of annoying the Christian Religious Right that made them avoid discussing the important role of Faith in Gothic Romance and made them create an accidentally anti-Christian setting.

I remember reading British horror comics back in the early 1980s that were still steeped in the Gothic world view. A vampire bites two girls, sisters. The Good one dies as her pure heart rejects the Vampire's evil, her soul is untouched. The bad, sinful one is transformed into another vampire. This is not presented as a Good Thing or desirable Power Up. :D

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 30, 2024, 01:50:41 PMI am a little fuzzy on this, and seeking out this detail seems a bit time consuming. I could be wrong but my recollection is they were very inconsistent about this in the early part of the line in the 90s

  They were. Most of the references to it as "Ravenloft" come from the Black Box, RR1 Darklords, RR2 Book of Crypts, and products of similar vintage. The last in-character use of it I recall is in van Richten's introduction to a set of monster entries in DRAGON #174, October 1991.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 30, 2024, 01:09:48 PMYes, Ravenloft is a hodgepodge of genres that don't really play well together. Medieval fantasy, Victorian Gothic horror, Gnosticism... What do you suggest as a solution?

I would lean in to the Victorian Gothic Horror. Set it in a vague setting that is at least implicitly early 19th century, between Waterloo and the Crimean War. Humans only. A Ghastly Affair (OSR RPG) did this sort of thing nicely for Gothic Romance. D&D is a pretty terrible ruleset for the genre though, I'd go with Mini Six probably, maybe BRP. I wouldn't go with New School system like Year Zero Engine since I do like something a bit meaty.

Quote from: S'mon on October 30, 2024, 01:55:37 PMYeah, that concept never worked for me at all, when PCs from Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk et al inhabit worlds far more overtly savage and brutal than those of Ravenloft, Ravenloft 2, or most of the domains. It's a terrible fit. Masque of the Red Death, which I bought, was certainly a better idea, but still suffered a lot from the Red Death as a kind of Demiurge. I think it was possibly TSR's fear of annoying the Christian Religious Right that made them avoid discussing the important role of Faith in Gothic Romance and made them create an accidentally anti-Christian setting.

  I think it was a combination of that and imbibing an overly pro-Enlightenment view of history for Masque, what with the adoption of the "evil St. Cyril vs. good Hypatia" myth as a key part of the setting's history and the presence of a heroic French qabal literally called the Enlightenment, along with the implications that "classical civilization=the Red Death=all evil," which really doesn't work if anyone looks at pre-Columbian American history ...

  OTOH, the Gothic Earth Gazetteer paints a positive portrait of Pope Leo XIII and makes him a close friend and ally of Dr. van Helsing.

Quote from: S'mon on October 30, 2024, 01:55:37 PMI remember reading British horror comics back in the early 1980s that were still steeped in the Gothic world view. A vampire bites two girls, sisters. The Good one dies as her pure heart rejects the Vampire's evil, her soul is untouched. The bad, sinful one is transformed into another vampire. This is not presented as a Good Thing or desirable Power Up. :D

You ever watch Hammer Horror movies about the Karnsteins? That's literally the explanation for why only some victims become vampires whereas others die. Apparently, there's few enough evil people in the world that they don't suffer a population explosion.

Quote from: S'mon on October 30, 2024, 02:02:31 PMI would lean in to the Victorian Gothic Horror. Set it in a vague setting that is at least implicitly early 19th century, between Waterloo and the Crimean War. Humans only.

So Stokerverse (https://dark-universes.com/stokerverse)?

Quote from: S'mon on October 30, 2024, 02:02:31 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 30, 2024, 01:09:48 PMYes, Ravenloft is a hodgepodge of genres that don't really play well together. Medieval fantasy, Victorian Gothic horror, Gnosticism... What do you suggest as a solution?

I would lean in to the Victorian Gothic Horror. Set it in a vague setting that is at least implicitly early 19th century, between Waterloo and the Crimean War. Humans only. A Ghastly Affair (OSR RPG) did this sort of thing nicely for Gothic Romance. D&D is a pretty terrible ruleset for the genre though, I'd go with Mini Six probably, maybe BRP. I wouldn't go with New School system like Year Zero Engine since I do like something a bit meaty.

I think that is very doable. I tried something like that a few years ago (but for whatever reason I scrapped what I had and turned it into a modern New England horror setting). I didn't do OSR though

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 30, 2024, 02:06:09 PM

Quote from: S'mon on October 30, 2024, 01:55:37 PMI remember reading British horror comics back in the early 1980s that were still steeped in the Gothic world view. A vampire bites two girls, sisters. The Good one dies as her pure heart rejects the Vampire's evil, her soul is untouched. The bad, sinful one is transformed into another vampire. This is not presented as a Good Thing or desirable Power Up. :D

You ever watch Hammer Horror movies about the Karnsteins? That's literally the explanation for why only some victims become vampires whereas others die. Apparently, there's few enough evil people in the world that they don't suffer a population explosion.

Quote from: S'mon on October 30, 2024, 02:02:31 PMI would lean in to the Victorian Gothic Horror. Set it in a vague setting that is at least implicitly early 19th century, between Waterloo and the Crimean War. Humans only.

So Stokerverse (https://dark-universes.com/stokerverse)?

I was just watching these again the other night. The Vampire Lovers is what prompted me to read Le Fanu in higschool 

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 30, 2024, 02:06:09 PMSo Stokerverse (https://dark-universes.com/stokerverse)?

Well I wouldn't go with a Splatterpunk art style. I love the sexy Clyde Caldwell style for Gothic Horror, the interior Ravenloft art style works well there too. The same artist did Dawn of the Emperors & other Mystara Gazetteers, which are definitely not Gothic - there it looks distracting.

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 30, 2024, 02:16:55 PMI think that is very doable. I tried something like that a few years ago (but for whatever reason I scrapped what I had and turned it into a modern New England horror setting). I didn't do OSR though

I quite often fantasise* about running Ravenloft 2 in its own setting as depicted in the module; I have the good fortune to possess an original copy. Suitable systems I know of include D6/Mini Six, and the Interlock system used in the Cyberpunk RPGs, The Witcher RPG, other RTG games.  Really hard to get D&D to work well for Gothic Romance IMO, either the PCs are too squishy or they're casting Fireball.

*I probably don't have enough players currently who would really buy into the concept. Kimberly is an author & friend of Bob Salvatore, she'd love it. Most of my players are London geezers who turn everything into Lock Stock & Two Smoking Hobbits.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 30, 2024, 02:06:09 PMYou ever watch Hammer Horror movies about the Karnsteins?

Checking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Karnstein_Trilogy I think I only watched a bit of Twins of Evil. Lust for a Vampire does sound right up my street though. :D

Quote from: S'mon on October 30, 2024, 01:55:37 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 30, 2024, 01:08:31 PMBut the core idea was usually character get drawn into Ravenloft from their more comfortable setting for a nightmarish adventure.

Yeah, that concept never worked for me at all, when PCs from Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk et al inhabit worlds far more overtly savage and brutal than those of Ravenloft, Ravenloft 2, or most of the domains. It's a terrible fit. Masque of the Red Death, which I bought, was certainly a better idea, but still suffered a lot from the Red Death as a kind of Demiurge. I think it was possibly TSR's fear of annoying the Christian Religious Right that made them avoid discussing the important role of Faith in Gothic Romance and made them create an accidentally anti-Christian setting.

I kind of agree in that characters from settings like Forgotten Realms are dealing regularly with really powerful monsters, and having way more encounters than they would in Ravenloft. Ravenloft is more about tone and how you present an encounter (and it leans into planned encounters). One reason I just started running Ravenloft as its own setting is the premise of characters doing a weekend in hell just got old and you had to do this thing where players pretended they didn't know they were in Ravenloft. That said Ravenloft could be very challenging because one of the core ideas (which is baked into the original module but made explicit in the Black Box) is monsters like vampires, werewolves, ghosts, etc are unique in Ravenloft, often being more powerful than their counterparts in other worlds, being harder to kill with special weaknesses that are difficult to learn unless you research the monster, etc. So if the GM handled the rules around that stuff well he could densely put a Forgotten Realms party through a weekend in hell (especially with the aid of things like the Van Richten books, but those really just expand on the core tools presented in the rulebook). The other thing that made it challenging was the domain structure. If the players were dealing with something like a domain lord, they often had so much power over the land, and were so hard to kill (though not all of them were) that TPKs were pretty easy if the GM let the dice fall where they may.

On Masque of the Red Death I largely agree with your critique of it. I liked Masque of the Red Death. I ran a number of small campaigns with it. But it was missing something. On the one hand, it just wasn't built with the same degree of atmosphere as Ravenloft itself in my opinion (it is hard to put my finger on it but a lot of the books felt too dry for me). And I didn't quite like the backstory to the setting. But that said it was a wonderful effort to bring 2E to a modern setting. A lot of that stuff worked really well at my table.

Quote from: S'mon on October 30, 2024, 02:38:17 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 30, 2024, 02:06:09 PMYou ever watch Hammer Horror movies about the Karnsteins?

Checking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Karnstein_Trilogy I think I only watched a bit of Twins of Evil. Lust for a Vampire does sound right up my street though. :D

They are worth checking out

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 30, 2024, 02:51:46 PMOn Masque of the Red Death I largely agree with your critique of it. I liked Masque of the Red Death. I ran a number of small campaigns with it. But it was missing something. On the one hand, it just wasn't built with the same degree of atmosphere as Ravenloft itself in my opinion (it is hard to put my finger on it but a lot of the books felt too dry for me). And I didn't quite like the backstory to the setting. But that said it was a wonderful effort to bring 2E to a modern setting. A lot of that stuff worked really well at my table.

Yeah I felt the rules work adapting 2e AD&D to a more modern setting was very solid indeed, better than WoTC's d20 Modern. I had not read William Hope Hodgson at the time, but his muscular 19th century Survival Horror would have been a great fit with the ruleset. The more action-oriented the horror is, the better it can accommodate the class/level system I think. In The Boats of the Glen Carrig you can practically see the protagonists level up during the story - the GM was definitely using "XP for Monster Kills" :D

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 12:31:52 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on October 30, 2024, 11:44:54 AM

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 10:23:56 AMEverything with D&D recently from WOTC is watered-down, happy goo covered in bubblewrap. The same trends can be seen with WOTC's interpretation and presentation of Ravenloft. Everything is bright, feminine, and gooey.

I agree.

With the caveat that recently means since 4E.

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 10:23:56 AMI think Ravenloft needs more mind-blasting horror, more chomping teeth, blood, and fire.

I disagree.

With the caveat that with gothic horror, you should be trying to achieve what Rod Serling did with The Twilight Zone and The Night Gallery. The horror shouldn't be the standard Hollywood jump scare or splatter punk, but the more personal horror of watching the standards that the character lives by subverted by the character themselves to accomplish a dubious goal. This is like a PC being offered a Ring of Three Wishes if they betray the party and kill them off or a Raise Dead is used to bring back a favorite NPC or PC and they return but as an undead or at the cost of an innocent character.

I'm not saying that this would be easy, but it would be far more satisfying to the Players.

Greetings!

Yeah, Jeff! I remember Rod Sterling very well, with The Twilight Zone and The Night Gallery! I loved those programs!

And yes, Gothic Horror traditions are very dark, romantic, sensual, and all that. Women love it. That's all fine, of course, though honestly, Gothic Horror is firmly rooted within a 19th Century Victorian Age. So many assumptions, standards, "Tropes" and so on are absolutely anchored within a Victorian Age framework and sensibility.

The problem I have usually faced with this set-up is that my campaign world is far away from anything like the Victorian Age and the 19th Century. It is more like the 6th Century to the 12th Century, but with dragons, monsters everywhere, huge empires and armies marching. Furthermore, when you have player characters that have been fighting in dark dungeons, slaughtering hordes of savage monsters, dueling enemies on a blood-soaked and fire-scorched battlefield for 5, 6 or 8 levels, suddenly dropping them into a Gothic Horror, Victorian Age environment...doesn't really work that well. The dissonance, the cross-angled goals and assumptions, the entire mental framework, just isn't really meshing well. Even when I, for example, am more than capable of threading that needle and making various adjustments, many players simply are not prepared or interested in doing so.

And, as the DM, I also admit that seeking to implement such a Gothic Horror, Victorian Age environment into a more Dark Ages, Sword & Sorcery milieu, feels problematic and jarring, if that makes sense. There are too very different genres there, and they do not really play nice with each other. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I can see where you are coming from and have run into that problem as well when running D&D, but I don't run into it as often when I run science fiction or superhero genre. I've always dismissed it as the problem with D&D adventures focusing on killing things and taking their stuff so often, even when versions existed that allowed for experience to be gained by overcoming more general challenges.

Quote from: S'mon on October 30, 2024, 03:06:06 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 30, 2024, 02:51:46 PMOn Masque of the Red Death I largely agree with your critique of it. I liked Masque of the Red Death. I ran a number of small campaigns with it. But it was missing something. On the one hand, it just wasn't built with the same degree of atmosphere as Ravenloft itself in my opinion (it is hard to put my finger on it but a lot of the books felt too dry for me). And I didn't quite like the backstory to the setting. But that said it was a wonderful effort to bring 2E to a modern setting. A lot of that stuff worked really well at my table.

Yeah I felt the rules work adapting 2e AD&D to a more modern setting was very solid indeed, better than WoTC's d20 Modern. I had not read William Hope Hodgson at the time, but his muscular 19th century Survival Horror would have been a great fit with the ruleset. The more action-oriented the horror is, the better it can accommodate the class/level system I think. In The Boats of the Glen Carrig you can practically see the protagonists level up during the story - the GM was definitely using "XP for Monster Kills" :D

It sounds cruel but leaning on level drain goes a long way to instilling fear in standard D&D. The gradual nerfing go level drain is one of the things that has made the setting worked less with each edition. Aging touch from ghosts is also pretty effective

Greetings!

Yeah, way back in the day, I ran a group of Marines through some of Ravenloft. The group was accustomed to being in a world of huge armies, hordes of monsters everywhere, mass death and dark plagues wiping out entire villages. Weird, bloodthirsty packs of evil chickens running about, treacherous witches and sorcerer women, terrifying bands of marauding beastmen and savage Chaos warriors running roughshod over the land, slaughtering and plundering. Whole villages being full of insane mutants. Packs of mutated bandits roaming the countryside, sacrificing wagons full of victims under moonlight and bonfire ceremonies.

They hit the Ravenloft areas with fireballs, waterskins full of Holy Water, hammers inscribed with crosses on the hammer-head and blessed by the high priest. No one goes off alone, anywhere, at any time. Everyone stocks together. Everything encountered is first forced to drink a waterskin of blessed Holy Water. Refusals were met with a fireball, or three. No mercy, no negotiation. Everything dies. Everything gets hacked down, fireballed, cross-hammer to the forehead, and a nun's habit soaked in Holy Water thrown over the creature's head. Every room, every hallway, gets hacked and burned. Every nook and cranny is searched out, with coffins and beds soaked in Holy Water and fireballed. Yes, women, they get mowed down as well. Children--they are possessed by demons, and get the fireball. Even stuffed animals are not benign and good--they get the blowtorch as well. Animals? The animals are evil, demonic beings that must always be killed swiftly, with no mercy.

When everything has screamed and died, and been burned to ashes, then it's time to gather up the treasure from every chest and hiding place. Go back to the temple, and sing praises in the Halls of the Righteous.

The land has been protected from Darkness.

Terminator mode engaged. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Also here are some covers from the 2E novel line to contrast with the new one

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 03:11:24 PMThey hit the Ravenloft areas with fireballs, waterskins full of Holy Water, hammers inscribed with crosses on the hammer-head and blessed by the high priest. No one goes off alone, anywhere, at any time. Everyone stocks together. Everything encountered is first forced to drink a waterskin of blessed Holy Water. Refusals were met with a fireball, or three. No mercy, no negotiation. Everything dies. Everything gets hacked down, fireballed, cross-hammer to the forehead, and a nun's habit soaked in Holy Water thrown over the creature's head. Every room, every hallway, gets hacked and burned. Every nook and cranny is searched out, with coffins and beds soaked in Holy Water and fireballed. Yes, women, they get mowed down as well. Children--they are possessed by demons, and get the fireball. Even stuffed animals are not benign and good--they get the blowtorch as well. Animals? The animals are evil, demonic beings that must always be killed swiftly, with no mercy.

This all should have resulted in some failed powers checks

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 30, 2024, 03:13:54 PM

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 03:11:24 PMThey hit the Ravenloft areas with fireballs, waterskins full of Holy Water, hammers inscribed with crosses on the hammer-head and blessed by the high priest. No one goes off alone, anywhere, at any time. Everyone stocks together. Everything encountered is first forced to drink a waterskin of blessed Holy Water. Refusals were met with a fireball, or three. No mercy, no negotiation. Everything dies. Everything gets hacked down, fireballed, cross-hammer to the forehead, and a nun's habit soaked in Holy Water thrown over the creature's head. Every room, every hallway, gets hacked and burned. Every nook and cranny is searched out, with coffins and beds soaked in Holy Water and fireballed. Yes, women, they get mowed down as well. Children--they are possessed by demons, and get the fireball. Even stuffed animals are not benign and good--they get the blowtorch as well. Animals? The animals are evil, demonic beings that must always be killed swiftly, with no mercy.

This all should have resulted in some failed powers checks

Greetings!

Yeah, well, that group viewed that series of adventures as being on a Crusade. They had previously been involved in traitorous plots to assassinate the King; evil cults of witches seeking to infiltrate a good-aligned temple; wars involving marching into the subterranean world and annihilating entire cities of Drow Elves; fighting evil Dragons; and a holy crusade against a whole country devoted to dark and evil gods, that were ruled by evil witches and Chaos Warriors.

So, they managed to make a few friends in the Ravenloft environment, as they approved of righteous and Good creatures. Anything that wasn't quick to demonstrate their righteousness though, well, they were on the short list to judgment.

The party was accustomed to the horrors, blood, and fire of war. They assumed treachery and schemes were everywhere. They were typically deeply suspicious of anyone, and any obvious enemies were quickly annihilated by using overwhelming force. Fire, steel, all the uber magics brought to bear by Wizards and Clerics.

It was an early reminder to me and a wake-up call about the problems involved in mixing genres. As I mentioned earlier, they were accustomed to a dark, savage world of war, plague, insanity, and death. A harsh and brutal Dark Ages world of Sword & Sorcery.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 30, 2024, 02:18:12 PMI was just watching these again the other night. The Vampire Lovers is what prompted me to read Le Fanu in higschool 

I did much the same. After watching Hammer's vision of beautiful vampires pushing the boundary of what '70s censors would allow, the story itself was a huge disappointment.

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 03:42:04 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 30, 2024, 03:13:54 PM

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 03:11:24 PMThey hit the Ravenloft areas with fireballs, waterskins full of Holy Water, hammers inscribed with crosses on the hammer-head and blessed by the high priest. No one goes off alone, anywhere, at any time. Everyone stocks together. Everything encountered is first forced to drink a waterskin of blessed Holy Water. Refusals were met with a fireball, or three. No mercy, no negotiation. Everything dies. Everything gets hacked down, fireballed, cross-hammer to the forehead, and a nun's habit soaked in Holy Water thrown over the creature's head. Every room, every hallway, gets hacked and burned. Every nook and cranny is searched out, with coffins and beds soaked in Holy Water and fireballed. Yes, women, they get mowed down as well. Children--they are possessed by demons, and get the fireball. Even stuffed animals are not benign and good--they get the blowtorch as well. Animals? The animals are evil, demonic beings that must always be killed swiftly, with no mercy.

This all should have resulted in some failed powers checks

Greetings!

Yeah, well, that group viewed that series of adventures as being on a Crusade. They had previously been involved in traitorous plots to assassinate the King; evil cults of witches seeking to infiltrate a good-aligned temple; wars involving marching into the subterranean world and annihilating entire cities of Drow Elves; fighting evil Dragons; and a holy crusade against a whole country devoted to dark and evil gods, that were ruled by evil witches and Chaos Warriors.

So, they managed to make a few friends in the Ravenloft environment, as they approved of righteous and Good creatures. Anything that wasn't quick to demonstrate their righteousness though, well, they were on the short list to judgment.

The party was accustomed to the horrors, blood, and fire of war. They assumed treachery and schemes were everywhere. They were typically deeply suspicious of anyone, and any obvious enemies were quickly annihilated by using overwhelming force. Fire, steel, all the uber magics brought to bear by Wizards and Clerics.

It was an early reminder to me and a wake-up call about the problems involved in mixing genres. As I mentioned earlier, they were accustomed to a dark, savage world of war, plague, insanity, and death. A harsh and brutal Dark Ages world of Sword & Sorcery.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Obviously you are the GM so it is up to you. But that kind of violent crusading is generally not the sort of top the thing Ravenloft responds well to. This chart came later with DoD (I think it is basically similar to the one they introduced in the red box) but it gives you an idea of how PCs have to be careful in Ravenloft even with how they approach violence against monster. Keep in mind that murder has a very specific definition in the rules which I will put in a separate post. The black box is a little more vague and just says committing evil acts warrants a powers check and the example it gives clarifies where the line is (see attached)

Again, how you want to run Ravenloft is totally up to you. I am not saying you are wrong, but if you enforce the powers check system as intended, I think it makes that kind of overly cautious party a lot more susceptible to the dark powers if they are attacking anything that doesn't announce its own righteousness and the setting will generally play a little more soundly   

This is how the rules define murder (just so it is clear it isn't a blanket prohibition against killing monsters or something)

Quote from: Krazz on October 30, 2024, 04:37:57 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 30, 2024, 02:18:12 PMI was just watching these again the other night. The Vampire Lovers is what prompted me to read Le Fanu in higschool 

I did much the same. After watching Hammer's vision of beautiful vampires pushing the boundary of what '70s censors would allow, the story itself was a huge disappointment.

Lol. It has been a while since I read it but I remember feeling like it pushed the boundaries of Victorian sensibilities on the subject (though I am sure there is victorian erotic that was much more shocking) 

Hipster Narcissist captures the art cover's vibe best, trying too hard to be special.

Which is exceedingly reminiscent of Magic the Gathering's more modern art focus on Planeswalkers being the metaplot drama. Mishra, Urza, Ashnod, etc. you rarely to never saw portrait until their comics *much* later. All the Planeswalker avatars now of the past 10 years, whose names outside Nichol Bolas (eye roll on him too) I cannot recall nor care, are all this Strutting Smarmy Douchenozzle ensemble portrait.

I just can't. Any cool factor in MtG art has been gone for far too long and now it looks like its Planeswalker ensemble portraiture was Pre-Fab #5 copy-pasta-ed for Ravenloft. Such low effort, tone deafness, not even trying to accomodate the characters to the setting -- the composition choice is just trash. It's all about the characters munching scenery, like wanna-be thespians before graduation. Yuck.

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 30, 2024, 04:44:56 PM

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 03:42:04 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 30, 2024, 03:13:54 PM

Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2024, 03:11:24 PMThey hit the Ravenloft areas with fireballs, waterskins full of Holy Water, hammers inscribed with crosses on the hammer-head and blessed by the high priest. No one goes off alone, anywhere, at any time. Everyone stocks together. Everything encountered is first forced to drink a waterskin of blessed Holy Water. Refusals were met with a fireball, or three. No mercy, no negotiation. Everything dies. Everything gets hacked down, fireballed, cross-hammer to the forehead, and a nun's habit soaked in Holy Water thrown over the creature's head. Every room, every hallway, gets hacked and burned. Every nook and cranny is searched out, with coffins and beds soaked in Holy Water and fireballed. Yes, women, they get mowed down as well. Children--they are possessed by demons, and get the fireball. Even stuffed animals are not benign and good--they get the blowtorch as well. Animals? The animals are evil, demonic beings that must always be killed swiftly, with no mercy.

This all should have resulted in some failed powers checks

Greetings!

Yeah, well, that group viewed that series of adventures as being on a Crusade. They had previously been involved in traitorous plots to assassinate the King; evil cults of witches seeking to infiltrate a good-aligned temple; wars involving marching into the subterranean world and annihilating entire cities of Drow Elves; fighting evil Dragons; and a holy crusade against a whole country devoted to dark and evil gods, that were ruled by evil witches and Chaos Warriors.

So, they managed to make a few friends in the Ravenloft environment, as they approved of righteous and Good creatures. Anything that wasn't quick to demonstrate their righteousness though, well, they were on the short list to judgment.

The party was accustomed to the horrors, blood, and fire of war. They assumed treachery and schemes were everywhere. They were typically deeply suspicious of anyone, and any obvious enemies were quickly annihilated by using overwhelming force. Fire, steel, all the uber magics brought to bear by Wizards and Clerics.

It was an early reminder to me and a wake-up call about the problems involved in mixing genres. As I mentioned earlier, they were accustomed to a dark, savage world of war, plague, insanity, and death. A harsh and brutal Dark Ages world of Sword & Sorcery.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Obviously you are the GM so it is up to you. But that kind of violent crusading is generally not the sort of top the thing Ravenloft responds well to. This chart came later with DoD (I think it is basically similar to the one they introduced in the red box) but it gives you an idea of how PCs have to be careful in Ravenloft even with how they approach violence against monster. Keep in mind that murder has a very specific definition in the rules which I will put in a separate post. The black box is a little more vague and just says committing evil acts warrants a powers check and the example it gives clarifies where the line is (see attached)

Again, how you want to run Ravenloft is totally up to you. I am not saying you are wrong, but if you enforce the powers check system as intended, I think it makes that kind of overly cautious party a lot more susceptible to the dark powers if they are attacking anything that doesn't announce its own righteousness and the setting will generally play a little more soundly 

Greetings!

Right, right, BedrockBrendan. I don't remember all of the precise details about Ravenloft. That group I played with was a long time ago. I never did get much into Ravenloft, as I mentioned earlier, the genre elements clash pretty hard between a Dark Ages Sword & Sorcery and Gothic Horror/Victorian Age. As S'mon said, it's a terrible fit. *Laughing*

I remember it being a terrible fit, so I wasn't much of a fan of Ravenloft, despite having a great enthusiasm for various cool elements of the Ravenloft campaign as a whole.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

And yes, Bedrockbrendan, I agree with you on Ravenloft here. It's a place where the Dark Lords are in perpetual purgatory waiting for them to learn to behave differently. They are chastised repeatedly by the Dark Powers by having new visitors come visit the 'broken record' of their ethereal dream and beat them, over and over again. Or, if those chosen to beat them become tempted with the dark domains greater power watch the new batch of heroes become chastised as well in devolution, sinking ever deeper as a part of the dark, deep ethereal.

Basically, fall into a nightmare and break free with good behavior OR behave as a nightmare within the nightmare, be 'rewarded' in becoming your own new nightmare. Beat the nightmare or be the nightmare. The Dark Powers do so love a ruthless approach because ruthlessness births new domains of everlasting chastisement... Remember a lot of the Dark Lords (different from the Dark Powers) are really Puzzle Bosses, you have to unthread their trauma and replay it to "solve" it, basically like a morality pageant play.

Quote from: Opaopajr on October 30, 2024, 05:38:13 PMDark Lords (different from the Dark Powers) are really Puzzle Bosses, you have to unthread their trauma and replay it to "solve" it, basically like a morality pageant play.

This I think is at the core of what makes the setting work (at least it was why I always found it so gameable). And that logic extends to lesser monsters in the setting too 

Quote from: Brad on October 30, 2024, 11:48:31 AMhttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ga792J3bkAA_Hhd?format=jpg

I thought you guys were joking about the cover...wtf is this? Not only are they all monstrosities but they're all fucking smiling, too. Are you smiling!?!? There's no smiling in Gothic Horror!!!

Whatever, not like I care. I am not a fan of Ravenloft beyond the first module which was always good for a one-shot during Halloween (or throwing PCs from a campaign into it during Halloween).

It is fitting in with the general art trend in 5.5, at least the PHB. Many of the characters in there are smiling as well. I suppose it shows the game is fun? Frowning is problematic? Not smiling isn't a mood? There's some reason I'm not going to get probably, but it does seem to be the new art direction.

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 30, 2024, 05:57:28 PM

Quote from: Opaopajr on October 30, 2024, 05:38:13 PMDark Lords (different from the Dark Powers) are really Puzzle Bosses, you have to unthread their trauma and replay it to "solve" it, basically like a morality pageant play.

This I think is at the core of what makes the setting work (at least it was why I always found it so gameable). And that logic extends to lesser monsters in the setting too 

Sounds like Silent Hill in reverse.

Quote from: S'mon on October 30, 2024, 12:57:33 PMthink it's just a bit of a shame that the whole Ravenloft as a campaign setting construction, Ravenloft as the Demiplane of Dread, is fundamentally opposed to Gothic Horror. Gothic Horror very much requires the intrusion of Evil into a nominally familiar, relatively comfortable world.

I think I agree. If I wanted to make something like Ravenloft, I'd steal Terry Pratchett's conception of a "parasite dimension", a semi-conscious entity that drifts around the multiverse and occasionally tries to intrude itself into the material world. Of course then you run into the problem several comments have pointed out, that if Ravenloft comes knocking at the door of something like the Forgotten Realms, it's probably getting its teeth kicked in. The Realms are stuffed with super-powerful entities that would detect another plane invading their own and muster a disproportionate response to crush it.

Someday I'd like to play Ravenloft with a DM that "gets it", but at the moment I'm skeptical on whether or not horror and D&D can ever mesh well.

Quote from: Opaopajr on October 30, 2024, 05:38:13 PMAnd yes, Bedrockbrendan, I agree with you on Ravenloft here. It's a place where the Dark Lords are in perpetual purgatory waiting for them to learn to behave differently. They are chastised repeatedly by the Dark Powers by having new visitors come visit the 'broken record' of their ethereal dream and beat them, over and over again. Or, if those chosen to beat them become tempted with the dark domains greater power watch the new batch of heroes become chastised as well in devolution, sinking ever deeper as a part of the dark, deep ethereal.

Basically, fall into a nightmare and break free with good behavior OR behave as a nightmare within the nightmare, be 'rewarded' in becoming your own new nightmare. Beat the nightmare or be the nightmare. The Dark Powers do so love a ruthless approach because ruthlessness births new domains of everlasting chastisement... Remember a lot of the Dark Lords (different from the Dark Powers) are really Puzzle Bosses, you have to unthread their trauma and replay it to "solve" it, basically like a morality pageant play.

Greetings!

Yeah, my friend, my Marine buddies were a rough group. They wanted to BE THE NIGHTMARE. Walk in rivers of blood, throwing a cigarette to the lake of gasoline all around. Chomping teeth, and face the Devil head on, guns blazing. Bring down the thunder, and fucking napalm everything.

The group's characters were accustomed to traveling and fighting in a harsh, brutal Sword & Sorcery, Dark Ages kind of world. Treachery was common. Evil plots, scheming, smarmy nobles, Farm girls that were witches that would sacrifice you under the moonlight to demons. Stuffed animals that would look cute and harmless--and then ambush you by attacking with a huge mouth full of razor-sharp teeth. Witches, evil Chaos Warriors riding everywhere, huge armies laying waste to entire cities. Insanity everywhere. Plagues leaving the countryside choked with rotting corpses, with huge clouds of evil ravens and vultures flying overhead.

These men were adrenaline junkies, and lived on constant action and danger. Anything that was slower-paced, they would likely consider hopelessly boring. So, the Sword & Sorcery milieu suited their temperaments well. Ravenloft was...too slow-paced and...It's hard to explain it. They were very suspicious of anyone and everyone, and the slightest perceived *threat* was dealt with a battle-axe or a fireball. No hesitation, no forgiveness, no mercy. I think they felt constantly frustrated while traveling in Ravenloft. The whole suspicious people, cloaked, shadowy people, people of uncertain loyalty, dangers lurking in the shadows, or in children's toy dolls that came to life and attacked them, draining levels from them. Old men, scheming against them. Beautiful women *seeming* to be sexy and sweet--but secretly plotting to sacrifice them in an orgy of blood and death. In a yardway by a barn, talking ravens attacked and pecked out the eyes from a favoured henchmen, and laughed at them as they flew away. The dark, shadowy trees in the woods? The group assumed the trees were alive and evil, and whispering to demons to attack them at night when they camped. That never actually happened--but the players believed that such dangers were all around them. Even the most innocuous, benign-looking thing, was something to look at hard.

The group managed to make a few friends in Ravenloft, and they were interested in protecting truly innocent, *Good* villagers--as long as they were convinced that they were truly *good* and righteous. The group would practically make up their own plot-lines as we played, which was always amusing. They would imagine plots, schemes, and how they could be ambushed and betrayed by the milkmaid, or how the village Blacksmith could betray them somehow. Or maybe the Blacksmith was actually a decent fellow--but he was under a wicked spell from his wife, who was a member of a local witch coven. That young, plump village girl dancing with Rogg last night? Yeah, that's right. She's probably a Succubus, just waiting for the right moment to strike Rogg. Of course, several others are talking about this girl that Rogg danced with, away from Rogg. But when Rogg gets wind of their concerns and suspicions, Rogg gets that look in his eyes. *Laughing*

Different "tropes" and dynamics in different campaign milieu's can be very different from Gothic Horror/Ravenloft. That's a struggle I had with Ravenloft, and like S'mon mentioned, it is a terrible fit with his own Wilderlands milieu. The players operate with very different expectations, assumptions, and routines. Entirely different world-views that clashed violently and discordantly with the rather civilized, orderly, pleasant Victorian Age like such is embraced in Ravenloft.

Ahh, well. There are elements that I love about Ravenloft, for sure, but it was difficult to really work well with groups from my Thandor world.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 31, 2024, 01:08:36 AM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 30, 2024, 05:57:28 PM

Quote from: Opaopajr on October 30, 2024, 05:38:13 PMDark Lords (different from the Dark Powers) are really Puzzle Bosses, you have to unthread their trauma and replay it to "solve" it, basically like a morality pageant play.

This I think is at the core of what makes the setting work (at least it was why I always found it so gameable). And that logic extends to lesser monsters in the setting too 

Sounds like Silent Hill in reverse.

Quote from: S'mon on October 30, 2024, 12:57:33 PMthink it's just a bit of a shame that the whole Ravenloft as a campaign setting construction, Ravenloft as the Demiplane of Dread, is fundamentally opposed to Gothic Horror. Gothic Horror very much requires the intrusion of Evil into a nominally familiar, relatively comfortable world.

I think I agree. If I wanted to make something like Ravenloft, I'd steal Terry Pratchett's conception of a "parasite dimension", a semi-conscious entity that drifts around the multiverse and occasionally tries to intrude itself into the material world. Of course then you run into the problem several comments have pointed out, that if Ravenloft comes knocking at the door of something like the Forgotten Realms, it's probably getting its teeth kicked in. The Realms are stuffed with super-powerful entities that would detect another plane invading their own and muster a disproportionate response to crush it.

Someday I'd like to play Ravenloft with a DM that "gets it", but at the moment I'm skeptical on whether or not horror and D&D can ever mesh well.

Greetings!

Hey there ForgottenF! I agree. I'm skeptical that D&D is really a suitable rule-set to run a Gothic Horror game. Then again, I bounce back to the idea that if you are initially establishing your milieu as a Victorian Age, 19th Century milieu, then Ravenloft would fit right in like a glove. If your milieu *isn't* that environment though, yeah. Likely to be trainloads of problems and friction.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 30, 2024, 02:19:11 AMIt changes nothing; you can't have a Victorian Horror setting where the characters are half-monster hipster narcissists.

Pretty sure this is not a Victorian horror setting. It is Domains of Dread style Ravenloft which was a mish-mash of Victorian, fantasy, Renaissance and more. Every domain was its own era half the time.

I suspect the author was basing off the mess that was 5e's Van Richten Domain book which botched most of the domains.

Its the "Heirs" part that is bothersome.

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 30, 2024, 10:06:03 AMThe dark powers were never defined though.

They could have been anything (from God, to the Devil, to D&D gods or even powerful spell casters).

And I don't think the point was that evil was more powerful than good, it was that evil is a seductive path that changes you and warps your soul.

In my box set the dark powers are never described. Merely noted as effectively prison wardens to make sure the monsters never escape. And as an almost policing system that captures and incarcerates monsters that grab their attention.

The point was never about evil being more powerful or even an easy path. Its about getting stuck in a prison built for supernatural horrors for no known reason and the prisoners, the monsters do not get to enjoy it because sure enough some heroes eventually come along to ruin their plans.

Quote from: S'mon on October 30, 2024, 05:33:19 AM>>Five strangers armed with steel and magic awaken in a mist-shrouded land, with no memory of how they arrived: Rotrog, a prideful orcish wizard; Chivarion, a sardonic drow barbarian; Alishai, an embittered tiefling paladin; Kah, a skittish kenku cleric; and Fielle, a sunny human artificer.<<

While this is utterly laughable, I never felt TSR had any real grasp of Victorian Horror either. It's not Gnostic, Evil is not Strongest, the Dark Powers make no sense within that Christian moral frame. The horror is in estrangement from God, not that Satan is stronger than God.

Well, I think that the premise is more that Ravenloft is a place where the powers of evil are particularly concentrated, and it imperils one's soul.

Quote from: Omega on October 31, 2024, 04:04:08 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 30, 2024, 02:19:11 AMIt changes nothing; you can't have a Victorian Horror setting where the characters are half-monster hipster narcissists.

Pretty sure this is not a Victorian horror setting. It is Domains of Dread style Ravenloft which was a mish-mash of Victorian, fantasy, Renaissance and more. Every domain was its own era half the time.

I suspect the author was basing off the mess that was 5e's Van Richten Domain book which botched most of the domains.

Its the "Heirs" part that is bothersome.

I don't blame the author. They are probably just writing a book according to whatever specs they were given. But raising Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft is a good point. One of the big changes they made was shifting Ravenloft from gothic horror to multi-genre horror. And I think that was a huge mistake (also people don't really talk much about Van Richten's guide to Ravenloft, despite all the fanfare and I think part of that is they made changes that a lot of fans didn't like). But shifting from Gothic Horror to Multigenre really just goes against what Ravenloft was about. And I love most horror genres (I even wrote a multi-genre horror game myself). Ravenloft stood out because it was all about not doing cool forms of horror. It was about a very particular vision of horror. 

I understand the reason they shifted to every domain being isolated. I get you can run a good monster of the week that way (this is why Isles of Dread were always so good). But Ravenloft needs a core. It just does. And moves the setting too much in the direction of the campaigns all being about confronting a particular domain lord each time IMO.

Still none of the changes in the Van Richten Guide require cover art that is this bad

Quote from: Omega on October 31, 2024, 04:04:08 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 30, 2024, 02:19:11 AMIt changes nothing; you can't have a Victorian Horror setting where the characters are half-monster hipster narcissists.

Pretty sure this is not a Victorian horror setting. It is Domains of Dread style Ravenloft which was a mish-mash of Victorian, fantasy, Renaissance and more. Every domain was its own era half the time.

I do think the newer Ravenlof tis drawing more off DoD. But I have to say even DoD was fighting against its Victorian roots a lot of the time. Barovia is listed as Medieval. And it has medieval trappings, but it is still ripped right out of Horror of Dracula and Dracula 1931. I always thought the DoD era of art was kind of crappy compared to the Fabian era (the layout also kind of bugged me). But I recognize why people like it. Still though. This is Strahd from DoD. Still rocking the Bela Lugosi look in his 'medieval' domain

Also just to be clear, the Black Box was also not being explicitly Victorian. The setting was clearly trying to have it both ways: there are domains that are clearly founded in the medieval but they have so many non-medieval trappings and the art really suggests hammer studios films set in the 19th century. Which I think is to Pundit's point that the source material is 18th and 19th century gothic novels and movies based on gothic novels, so the domains tend to reflect that (even when they are claiming the domain is chivalric, medieval or renaissance there is usually some anachronism in the setting detail or in the art depicting it)

Quote from: SHARK on October 31, 2024, 01:40:56 AM

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 31, 2024, 01:08:36 AM

Quote from: S'mon on October 30, 2024, 12:57:33 PMthink it's just a bit of a shame that the whole Ravenloft as a campaign setting construction, Ravenloft as the Demiplane of Dread, is fundamentally opposed to Gothic Horror. Gothic Horror very much requires the intrusion of Evil into a nominally familiar, relatively comfortable world.

I think I agree. If I wanted to make something like Ravenloft, I'd steal Terry Pratchett's conception of a "parasite dimension", a semi-conscious entity that drifts around the multiverse and occasionally tries to intrude itself into the material world. Of course then you run into the problem several comments have pointed out, that if Ravenloft comes knocking at the door of something like the Forgotten Realms, it's probably getting its teeth kicked in. The Realms are stuffed with super-powerful entities that would detect another plane invading their own and muster a disproportionate response to crush it.

Someday I'd like to play Ravenloft with a DM that "gets it", but at the moment I'm skeptical on whether or not horror and D&D can ever mesh well.

Greetings!

Hey there ForgottenF! I agree. I'm skeptical that D&D is really a suitable rule-set to run a Gothic Horror game. Then again, I bounce back to the idea that if you are initially establishing your milieu as a Victorian Age, 19th Century milieu, then Ravenloft would fit right in like a glove. If your milieu *isn't* that environment though, yeah. Likely to be trainloads of problems and friction.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I think a Victorian-themed setting or a historical hodgepodge like Mystara would help in terms of Ravenloft not feeling like such an anachronism, but I don't think it gets you any closer to a Gothic horror tone. System dictates setting as I always say, and D&D is at its core a game of heroic fantasy adventure. Your own earlier anecdote ably demonstrates what happens when you take a group of D&D characters with D&D expectations and throw them at a supposed horror setting. Unless you're going to make substantial changes to the rules, I think the closest you'd get would be something like the 2004 Van Helsing movie. I love that movie, but it's not horror at all. It's action schlock with a gothic paint job.

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 31, 2024, 10:18:24 AM

Quote from: SHARK on October 31, 2024, 01:40:56 AM

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 31, 2024, 01:08:36 AM

Quote from: S'mon on October 30, 2024, 12:57:33 PMthink it's just a bit of a shame that the whole Ravenloft as a campaign setting construction, Ravenloft as the Demiplane of Dread, is fundamentally opposed to Gothic Horror. Gothic Horror very much requires the intrusion of Evil into a nominally familiar, relatively comfortable world.

I think I agree. If I wanted to make something like Ravenloft, I'd steal Terry Pratchett's conception of a "parasite dimension", a semi-conscious entity that drifts around the multiverse and occasionally tries to intrude itself into the material world. Of course then you run into the problem several comments have pointed out, that if Ravenloft comes knocking at the door of something like the Forgotten Realms, it's probably getting its teeth kicked in. The Realms are stuffed with super-powerful entities that would detect another plane invading their own and muster a disproportionate response to crush it.

Someday I'd like to play Ravenloft with a DM that "gets it", but at the moment I'm skeptical on whether or not horror and D&D can ever mesh well.

Greetings!

Hey there ForgottenF! I agree. I'm skeptical that D&D is really a suitable rule-set to run a Gothic Horror game. Then again, I bounce back to the idea that if you are initially establishing your milieu as a Victorian Age, 19th Century milieu, then Ravenloft would fit right in like a glove. If your milieu *isn't* that environment though, yeah. Likely to be trainloads of problems and friction.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I think a Victorian-themed setting or a historical hodgepodge like Mystara would help in terms of Ravenloft not feeling like such an anachronism, but I don't think it gets you any closer to a Gothic horror tone. System dictates setting as I always say, and D&D is at its core a game of heroic fantasy adventure. Your own earlier anecdote ably demonstrates what happens when you take a group of D&D characters with D&D expectations and throw them at a supposed horror setting. Unless you're going to make substantial changes to the rules, I think the closest you'd get would be something like the 2004 Van Helsing movie. I love that movie, but it's not horror at all. It's action schlock with a gothic paint job.

The changes won't work for everyone. But in fairness The core rules (from Black Box to DoD) had substantial changes to the AD&D rules system. Many spells were altered. Some class abilities were altered. Powers checks are an enormous change. The monsters are fundamentally altered. And the GM is considerably empowered. There are also fear and  horror checks (later they would add madness---I think with the red box but can't recall). It is still D&D (honestly that is one of the things I like about it). But you can really hit a strong hammer studio vibe if you know how to run the setting. Mileage may vary of course. But it always worked very well for me 

I definitely agree that D&D has issues trying to support a variety of settings that make wildly different assumptions. There are too many assumptions baked into the core rules, which means that settings with different assumptions have to spend a lot of space on changing those assumptions and retraining players. You're probably better off playing a dedicated Victorian horror game like Stokerverse over playing a D&D setting like Ravenloft. I get that piggybacking off an existing system allows a setting to benefit from the network effect, but it comes at the cost of diluting what makes the setting distinct. Especially now, when writers don't even try to make settings feels distinct.

Nah, it is plenty Gothic in literary aesthetics of hidden grotesques under the majestic surface AND Victorian in redemptive and rectifying moral ethos and the imperilment of one's soul amongst such turbid environs (I mean, as modern as they were in Industrial Revolution Age their moral belief in Progress!, and Sanitation!, and even into Religious Pageant Plays which was very much de rigueur). Don't get lost in the setting domain trappings because that varies from Ancient Egypt to gaslight Industrial Age. The point is that wickedness lies underneath in just about anything you can imagine (including Bluetspur, perhaps some Illithid did something really unforgiveable to Illithid ethoi...?).

The setting strongly leans into "beware what you wsh for, you might just get it", a la cursed monkey paw wish. Thus wanting to Be the Nightmare was considered a moral failing threatening one into damnation. In fact there was at least one DragonLance NPC that became a devout black knight crusader, IIRC, and there was the Robespierre-esque Dementlieu constant revolution domain, the perpetual victim enchantress domain, etc.

Your own hero narrative without self control would be mirrored in one's PC developing into a Darklord's own private Idaho. ;) Self-righteousness (pride), control issues (paranoia), and manipulation (turning people into things) were often key seeds to fail those powers checks tout de suite. Nah, Ravenloft was absolutely fine AND made perfect sense as an extension especially given Alignment already in D&D. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if it was partially developed as an in-game response to murderhobo-ism and a way to quarantine PCs who needed to be setting retired as a group-made legendary fallen NPC.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 31, 2024, 12:26:27 PMI definitely agree that D&D has issues trying to support a variety of settings that make wildly different assumptions. There are too many assumptions baked into the core rules, which means that settings with different assumptions have to spend a lot of space on changing those assumptions and retraining players. You're probably better off playing a dedicated Victorian horror game like Stokerverse over playing a D&D setting like Ravenloft. I get that piggybacking off an existing system allows a setting to benefit from the network effect, but it comes at the cost of diluting what makes the setting distinct. Especially now, when writers don't even try to make settings feels distinct.

Again it boils down to what you want. We played plenty of dedicated horror RPGs in the 90s. The thing that made Ravenloft great for me, was that it is built on D&D, which is a great system for long term campaigns. You can certainly go a more full emulation route. Call of Cthulhu was great for doing Lovecraft for instance, and more recent horror RPGs are even more focused on emulating genres. TORG's ORRORSH was another one I remember enjoying a lot. What I liked about Ravenloft was it brought the gothic stuff to a highly gameable D&D environment. There is something about D&D (or D&D adjacent games) that I think work well (from the preparation end, to the implementation and play end). I play mostly other games these days, but whenever I go back to D&D or specifically to Ravenoft, it feels so nice because I sit down and I immediately know what to do for a session. I ran several long campaigns all through the 90s and it was rarely the problem I see peopel complain about online (not saying it wasn't a problem for some people, or that some of these criticisms don't apply to peoples experience, but I never really had these issue). There were other issues but the core system did what I wanted for the setting. I think part of it boils down to do you like the Ravenloft setting itself or are you looking more for something else (if the former, Ravenloft under 2E worked pretty well, if the latter you probably want another system).

Quote from: Opaopajr on October 31, 2024, 12:27:29 PMthe perpetual victim enchantress domain

I don't have encyclopedic knowledge of Ravenloft, but they actually went there? They made the enchantress from Beauty and the Beast into a darklord? I always thought she was the fairy tale equivalent of a flopsy, especially in the Disney version. TSR actually called that out in the 90s?

Quote from: Opaopajr on October 31, 2024, 12:27:29 PMNah, it is plenty Gothic in literary aesthetics of hidden grotesques under the majestic surface AND Victorian in redemptive and rectifying moral ethos and the imperilment of one's soul amongst such turbid environs (I mean, as modern as they were in Industrial Revolution Age their moral belief in Progress!, and Sanitation!, and even into Religious Pageant Plays which was very much de rigueur). Don't get lost in the setting domain trappings because that varies from Ancient Egypt to gaslight Industrial Age. The point is that wickedness lies underneath in just about anything you can imagine (including Bluetspur, perhaps some Illithid did something really unforgiveable to Illithid ethoi...?).

The setting strongly leans into "beware what you wsh for, you might just get it", a la cursed monkey paw wish. Thus wanting to Be the Nightmare was considered a moral failing threatening one into damnation. In fact there was at least one DragonLance NPC that became a devout black knight crusader, IIRC, and there was the Robespierre-esque Dementlieu constant revolution domain, the perpetual victim enchantress domain, etc.

Your own hero narrative without self control would be mirrored in one's PC developing into a Darklord's own private Idaho. ;) Self-righteousness (pride), control issues (paranoia), and manipulation (turning people into things) were often key seeds to fail those powers checks tout de suite. Nah, Ravenloft was absolutely fine AND made perfect sense as an extension especially given Alignment already in D&D. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if it was partially developed as an in-game response to murderhobo-ism and a way to quarantine PCs who needed to be setting retired as a group-made legendary fallen NPC.

I had a big long response, but basically I agree with everything you said for the most part

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 31, 2024, 12:46:17 PM

Quote from: Opaopajr on October 31, 2024, 12:27:29 PMthe perpetual victim enchantress domain

I don't have encyclopedic knowledge of Ravenloft, but they actually went there? They made the enchantress from Beauty and the Beast into a darklord? I always thought she was the fairy tale equivalent of an ambulance chaser, especially in the Disney version. TSR actually called that out in the 90s?

I am not sure who is referring to but I think it might be someone like Gabriele Adere. And I haven't seen Beauty and the beast so I can't weigh in on whether that character is someone who made it into Ravenloft. Generally they were pulling in hammer studios, universal and gothic horror story characters with the serial numbers filed off. Sometimes they took from Shakespeare and fairy tales or myth. Disney I don't recall being hugely on the table. The one domain that leaps to mind in that respect is the Wild Lands from the Islands of Terror supplement. It had a domain lord called King Crocodile. Most people I think found that domain silly (I never really understood why they did it, maybe I was missing some angle to it that made it useful). Generally though 90s Ravenloft didn't really call things out. Again, it was the uncool horror setting of the 90s and tended to embrace tropes rather than put a spin on them or fight the man

This is Gabrielle Aderre (I actually think she is one of the better domain lords from that era---though I wasn't a huge fan of where they took her in the meta plot: I liked leaving that stuff to the GM because it is all suggested in her background and the bloodlines)

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 31, 2024, 08:29:46 AMAlso just to be clear, the Black Box was also not being explicitly Victorian. The setting was clearly trying to have it both ways: there are domains that are clearly founded in the medieval but they have so many non-medieval trappings and the art really suggests hammer studios films set in the 19th century. Which I think is to Pundit's point that the source material is 18th and 19th century gothic novels and movies based on gothic novels, so the domains tend to reflect that (even when they are claiming the domain is chivalric, medieval or renaissance there is usually some anachronism in the setting detail or in the art depicting it)

That's right. When I say Victorian Horror, I do not mean "horror set in the victorian era", I mean the moralistic genre of Gothic Horror later illutrated by Hammer Horror. It could be set in any era.

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 31, 2024, 01:18:41 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 31, 2024, 12:46:17 PM

Quote from: Opaopajr on October 31, 2024, 12:27:29 PMthe perpetual victim enchantress domain

I don't have encyclopedic knowledge of Ravenloft, but they actually went there? They made the enchantress from Beauty and the Beast into a darklord? I always thought she was the fairy tale equivalent of an ambulance chaser, especially in the Disney version. TSR actually called that out in the 90s?

I am not sure who is referring to but I think it might be someone like Gabriele Adere. And I haven't seen Beauty and the beast so I can't weigh in on whether that character is someone who made it into Ravenloft. Generally they were pulling in hammer studios, universal and gothic horror story characters with the serial numbers filed off. Sometimes they took from Shakespeare and fairy tales or myth. Disney I don't recall being hugely on the table.

Beauty and the Beast would fit into Ravenloft reasonably well. It's an old French fairytale. If memory serves, the best known version of it before Disney got their hands on the story was published in the 18th century. The enchantress character would be an odd fit for a dark lord, though. In the older versions she's kind of a generic "wicked fairy", and in the Disney version she curses the prince/beast as way of teaching a moral lesson. The beast might make a better dark lord if you twisted the story around a bit, make it so that he killed Beauty in a fit of jealous rage or something, making the curse permanent.

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 31, 2024, 12:11:13 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 31, 2024, 10:18:24 AMI think a Victorian-themed setting or a historical hodgepodge like Mystara would help in terms of Ravenloft not feeling like such an anachronism, but I don't think it gets you any closer to a Gothic horror tone. System dictates setting as I always say, and D&D is at its core a game of heroic fantasy adventure. Your own earlier anecdote ably demonstrates what happens when you take a group of D&D characters with D&D expectations and throw them at a supposed horror setting. Unless you're going to make substantial changes to the rules, I think the closest you'd get would be something like the 2004 Van Helsing movie. I love that movie, but it's not horror at all. It's action schlock with a gothic paint job.

The changes won't work for everyone. But in fairness The core rules (from Black Box to DoD) had substantial changes to the AD&D rules system. Many spells were altered. Some class abilities were altered. Powers checks are an enormous change. The monsters are fundamentally altered. And the GM is considerably empowered. There are also fear and  horror checks (later they would add madness---I think with the red box but can't recall). It is still D&D (honestly that is one of the things I like about it). But you can really hit a strong hammer studio vibe if you know how to run the setting. Mileage may vary of course. But it always worked very well for me 

Changing the rules for the more unique settings is one of the things I think TSR had absolutely right, and which WOTC has tended to get wrong. That said, I've always wondered how it worked out in practice, particularly with Ravenloft. The approach of going through and coming up with line-item changes to individual elements of the game seems like something that would work well enough for an independent campaign setting, but with Ravenloft being something you're supposed to drop into your existing campaign, it seems like it'd require the DM to have a pretty encyclopedic knowledge of the variant rules and be constantly on the lookout to enforce them. In either case I would guess it led to a lot of resistance from players not wanting to deal with variant rules. That's why I suggested in the other thread that settings like Ravenloft or Dark Sun would benefit from being published as distinctly separate games based on the same rule structure.

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 31, 2024, 07:58:59 AM

Quote from: S'mon on October 30, 2024, 05:33:19 AM>>Five strangers armed with steel and magic awaken in a mist-shrouded land, with no memory of how they arrived: Rotrog, a prideful orcish wizard; Chivarion, a sardonic drow barbarian; Alishai, an embittered tiefling paladin; Kah, a skittish kenku cleric; and Fielle, a sunny human artificer.<<

While this is utterly laughable, I never felt TSR had any real grasp of Victorian Horror either. It's not Gnostic, Evil is not Strongest, the Dark Powers make no sense within that Christian moral frame. The horror is in estrangement from God, not that Satan is stronger than God.

Well, I think that the premise is more that Ravenloft is a place where the powers of evil are particularly concentrated, and it imperils one's soul.

Thats never been the Domains of Dread Ravenloft premise. Its a cross between a prison and an ant farm.

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 31, 2024, 08:21:40 AM

Quote from: Omega on October 31, 2024, 04:04:08 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 30, 2024, 02:19:11 AMIt changes nothing; you can't have a Victorian Horror setting where the characters are half-monster hipster narcissists.

Pretty sure this is not a Victorian horror setting. It is Domains of Dread style Ravenloft which was a mish-mash of Victorian, fantasy, Renaissance and more. Every domain was its own era half the time.

I suspect the author was basing off the mess that was 5e's Van Richten Domain book which botched most of the domains.

Its the "Heirs" part that is bothersome.

I don't blame the author. They are probably just writing a book according to whatever specs they were given. But raising Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft is a good point. One of the big changes they made was shifting Ravenloft from gothic horror to multi-genre horror. And I think that was a huge mistake (also people don't really talk much about Van Richten's guide to Ravenloft, despite all the fanfare and I think part of that is they made changes that a lot of fans didn't like). But shifting from Gothic Horror to Multigenre really just goes against what Ravenloft was about.

Changing Ravenloft/Barovia is a pretty vexing one. Its mostly a Vampire setting really.

But 5e Curse of Strahd tried to cram in everything. You have werewolves, evil druids, hags, ghosts, a bride of frankenstein sort of thing, and more. All crammed into Barovia's map.

Then comes the mess of 5e's take on Domains of Dread with Van Richtens and its a mess at every turn. This was the WORST place to experiment with removing alignment! And that is before even getting to the changes to most of the domains they touched on. Near invariably for the worse.

This novel is just building on that.

The title makes me wonder if this was originally intended to be a Baldurs Gate or Neverwinter book and wotc changed gears for whatever stupid reason.

It might end up being a good book. But its going to be hampered at every turn.

I think a mismatched band of characters totally unsuited for Ravenloft fits in perfectly with even the original Ravenloft module's run. I mean you could have a half-orc, an elf, and such party blundering into Barovia, and things got weirder, sometimes alot weirder if the DM was allowing Dragon magazine races and classes. And skip forward just 2 years and you could have official weirdness like OA races and classes in the party.

I doubt any of that was even a throught in this new book. And dod no one get the memo about were-ravens being a thing in Ravenloft and that various evil favtions really dont like them? How long is the kenku going to live?

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on October 30, 2024, 08:46:12 AMalthough WotC has made it worse by adding the "most people are soulless".

They are in Seattle!

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 31, 2024, 04:24:59 PMThat's why I suggested in the other thread that settings like Ravenloft or Dark Sun would benefit from being published as distinctly separate games based on the same rule structure.

100% agree.

Distinct settings need their own distinct rules and need to be self-contained so they can emphasize what makes them unique from other settings.

Quote from: Spinachcat on October 31, 2024, 06:24:08 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 31, 2024, 04:24:59 PMThat's why I suggested in the other thread that settings like Ravenloft or Dark Sun would benefit from being published as distinctly separate games based on the same rule structure.

100% agree.

Distinct settings need their own distinct rules and need to be self-contained so they can emphasize what makes them unique from other settings.

TSR is vindicated again! ;) But then this was also roughly attempted with White Wolf and their monsters: same base engine, distinct rules so they are not truly compatible, and published as separate lines. And we've seen *repeatedly* the first thing the public wants to do with it is mash it up into a large Coliseum arena battle royale.

You can't take the human stubbornness out of the human systems. :D Even if you get what you want, that's not what people will do with it. Like a bunch of grade school boys out in the forest and finding sticks, stones, and pine cones... soon it's about King of the Hill. Might be a human thing, or just a life survival thing. ;)

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 31, 2024, 04:24:59 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 31, 2024, 01:18:41 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 31, 2024, 12:46:17 PM

Quote from: Opaopajr on October 31, 2024, 12:27:29 PMthe perpetual victim enchantress domain

I don't have encyclopedic knowledge of Ravenloft, but they actually went there? They made the enchantress from Beauty and the Beast into a darklord? I always thought she was the fairy tale equivalent of an ambulance chaser, especially in the Disney version. TSR actually called that out in the 90s?

I am not sure who is referring to but I think it might be someone like Gabriele Adere. And I haven't seen Beauty and the beast so I can't weigh in on whether that character is someone who made it into Ravenloft. Generally they were pulling in hammer studios, universal and gothic horror story characters with the serial numbers filed off. Sometimes they took from Shakespeare and fairy tales or myth. Disney I don't recall being hugely on the table.

Beauty and the Beast would fit into Ravenloft reasonably well. It's an old French fairytale. If memory serves, the best known version of it before Disney got their hands on the story was published in the 18th century. The enchantress character would be an odd fit for a dark lord, though. In the older versions she's kind of a generic "wicked fairy", and in the Disney version she curses the prince/beast as way of teaching a moral lesson. The beast might make a better dark lord if you twisted the story around a bit, make it so that he killed Beauty in a fit of jealous rage or something, making the curse permanent.

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on October 31, 2024, 12:11:13 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on October 31, 2024, 10:18:24 AMI think a Victorian-themed setting or a historical hodgepodge like Mystara would help in terms of Ravenloft not feeling like such an anachronism, but I don't think it gets you any closer to a Gothic horror tone. System dictates setting as I always say, and D&D is at its core a game of heroic fantasy adventure. Your own earlier anecdote ably demonstrates what happens when you take a group of D&D characters with D&D expectations and throw them at a supposed horror setting. Unless you're going to make substantial changes to the rules, I think the closest you'd get would be something like the 2004 Van Helsing movie. I love that movie, but it's not horror at all. It's action schlock with a gothic paint job.

The changes won't work for everyone. But in fairness The core rules (from Black Box to DoD) had substantial changes to the AD&D rules system. Many spells were altered. Some class abilities were altered. Powers checks are an enormous change. The monsters are fundamentally altered. And the GM is considerably empowered. There are also fear and  horror checks (later they would add madness---I think with the red box but can't recall). It is still D&D (honestly that is one of the things I like about it). But you can really hit a strong hammer studio vibe if you know how to run the setting. Mileage may vary of course. But it always worked very well for me 

Changing the rules for the more unique settings is one of the things I think TSR had absolutely right, and which WOTC has tended to get wrong. That said, I've always wondered how it worked out in practice, particularly with Ravenloft. The approach of going through and coming up with line-item changes to individual elements of the game seems like something that would work well enough for an independent campaign setting, but with Ravenloft being something you're supposed to drop into your existing campaign, it seems like it'd require the DM to have a pretty encyclopedic knowledge of the variant rules and be constantly on the lookout to enforce them. In either case I would guess it led to a lot of resistance from players not wanting to deal with variant rules. That's why I suggested in the other thread that settings like Ravenloft or Dark Sun would benefit from being published as distinctly separate games based on the same rule structure.

This really wasn't that much of an issue. I never really heard a complaint from GMs about complexity. And players complained about as much as they would with anything else in the game (it really boils down to how much they like buying into a setting premise). It didn't require encyclopedia knowledge to run. When a spell came up, you ran teh spell as you always did and checked the list in teh rulebook (or on teh Ravenloft GM screen) to see if it was altered. If it was altered you read the altered description. Eventually you learned the ones that came up repeatedly well enough you didn't need to look them up. All the other stuff was more part of the fun (creating a more customized werewolf or vampire for example, for me, was much more fun than dropping in a standard one).

On different systems. I think part of the issue though is by having Ravenloft be a version of D&D, you get the built in advantages (the system just works well for campaigns, you have a larger player base to draw on, players already know the basic system etc). There have always been other horror RPGs. Like I said, I played Cthulhu and Orrorsh for TORG at the time as well; and a couple of my friends were running vampire campaigns I was in). I think with TSR, they knew AD&D worked for people and it was wise for them to go with what they did best. Even now I still run Ravenloft with 2E when I play it. I could always go with another system, but I really like how it comes together (that is just me of course).

Quote from: Omega on October 31, 2024, 05:48:08 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 31, 2024, 07:58:59 AM

Quote from: S'mon on October 30, 2024, 05:33:19 AM>>Five strangers armed with steel and magic awaken in a mist-shrouded land, with no memory of how they arrived: Rotrog, a prideful orcish wizard; Chivarion, a sardonic drow barbarian; Alishai, an embittered tiefling paladin; Kah, a skittish kenku cleric; and Fielle, a sunny human artificer.<<

While this is utterly laughable, I never felt TSR had any real grasp of Victorian Horror either. It's not Gnostic, Evil is not Strongest, the Dark Powers make no sense within that Christian moral frame. The horror is in estrangement from God, not that Satan is stronger than God.

Well, I think that the premise is more that Ravenloft is a place where the powers of evil are particularly concentrated, and it imperils one's soul.

Thats never been the Domains of Dread Ravenloft premise. Its a cross between a prison and an ant farm.

I would push back on this a little bit. After all it is a world that concentrates evil by drawing evil in from other places and giving them domains they can't escape.  Certainly the lords are described as prisoners. We don't know what the purpose is because we have no idea what he dark powers are and why Ravenloft exists in the first place (like I said I personally always saw it more as a hell or purgatory type place, but you can read it any number of ways). The dark powers are not defined. I do think the whole part about imperiling your soul is definitely true. They prisoners of Ravenloft, but prisoners because of their own evil. And the path to corruption in Ravenloft always comes with a both a blessing and curse (so it is a place that seduces characters who aren't careful to the dark side). The powers check the mechanical manifestation of that process. Also you don't have the become a domain lord to imperil your soul in Ravenoft. Lots of people fail powers checks, become horrendous monsters through the process, and never get a domain.

Quote from: Omega on October 31, 2024, 06:09:20 PMThen comes the mess of 5e's take on Domains of Dread with Van Richtens and its a mess at every turn. This was the WORST place to experiment with removing alignment! And that is before even getting to the changes to most of the domains they touched on. Near invariably for the worse.

Agree 100% on this one. If there is a setting where alignment makes sense, it is Ravenloft. I bought a copy of Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft, and to me it read like what someone would make if they wanted to alienate an existing fanbase for a setting (and it didn't seem like folks really understood what people had liked about the setting to begin with). If their aim was to just take the concept because they thought it was cool, and aim it at a new set of fans, fair enough. But I feel like I haven't heard much discussion of it since it came out

Quote from: Omega on October 31, 2024, 06:09:20 PMI think a mismatched band of characters totally unsuited for Ravenloft fits in perfectly with even the original Ravenloft module's run. I mean you could have a half-orc, an elf, and such party blundering into Barovia, and things got weirder, sometimes alot weirder if the DM was allowing Dragon magazine races and classes. And skip forward just 2 years and you could have official weirdness like OA races and classes in the party.

I doubt any of that was even a throught in this new book. And dod no one get the memo about were-ravens being a thing in Ravenloft and that various evil favtions really dont like them? How long is the kenku going to live?

I mean you can have non-humans as stars in a Ravenloft novel. Like I said before, Ravenloft did monster rally really well. Soth was the main character of Knight of the Black Rose, and Jander Sunstar was a vampire in Vampire of the Mists. And half orcs and elves were a thing (though by 2E, when the setting books we are talking about were coming out, half orcs weren't a PHB option). But there were the complete books, and I had a deep gnome in one of my campaigns. That works if you at least have the people in the setting react to it the way they are supposed to. I think having a whole party is probably a mistake. It would probably work better if they had 1-2 main characters to follow. I have less sympathy for Trifling characters though (that may just be may own personal hang up as an older gamer).

But the issue with the cover is more about the attitude, not even the races (the Kenku is the only one that manages to look cool, oddly enough). It is the sass, the strutting, the haircut, the triumphant raising of the arms. To me that looks like a team on a tv series with bitchy dialogue. Nothing in the image really conveys the mood of the old novels to me (and I get maybe they aren't going for the old mood). This looks like the cover of a heist novel

Quote from: Omega on October 31, 2024, 05:48:08 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 31, 2024, 07:58:59 AM

Quote from: S'mon on October 30, 2024, 05:33:19 AM>>Five strangers armed with steel and magic awaken in a mist-shrouded land, with no memory of how they arrived: Rotrog, a prideful orcish wizard; Chivarion, a sardonic drow barbarian; Alishai, an embittered tiefling paladin; Kah, a skittish kenku cleric; and Fielle, a sunny human artificer.<<

While this is utterly laughable, I never felt TSR had any real grasp of Victorian Horror either. It's not Gnostic, Evil is not Strongest, the Dark Powers make no sense within that Christian moral frame. The horror is in estrangement from God, not that Satan is stronger than God.

Well, I think that the premise is more that Ravenloft is a place where the powers of evil are particularly concentrated, and it imperils one's soul.

Thats never been the Domains of Dread Ravenloft premise. Its a cross between a prison and an ant farm.

Indeed. Ravenloft (the module) was originally a prison for Strahd and then it got expanded on later, different prisons for various really evil beings. It's just sometimes non-evil people got caught up in it.

There was also the Masque of the Red Death, which was a gothic horror setting (Gothic Earth they called it) using the 2e rules and most of Ravenloft's stuff but on Victorian era Earth.

Cover may be AI. Some of the hand positions are janky.

The vibe of the cover is more Scooby Doo than Gothic Horror.

Quote from: Omega on November 01, 2024, 12:11:50 AMThe vibe of the cover is more Scooby Doo than Gothic Horror.

Scooby Doo would almost be an improvement

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on November 01, 2024, 08:00:38 AM

Quote from: Omega on November 01, 2024, 12:11:50 AMThe vibe of the cover is more Scooby Doo than Gothic Horror.

Scooby Doo would almost be an improvement

It's like they went full Scrappy Doo.

I'm not going to watch a video reviewing something that the presenter hasn't read.

This topic has covered the book in some detail, but you haven't taken a good look at the "New York Times Bestselling Author". Let me help out with that, because it is a wild ride that just gets better and better. :D

(https://64.media.tumblr.com/1cc40f34c7afb337c0cf734c1077fdd1/d21448a4f9bee90c-3e/s1280x1920/44ef97a6984c786bc4161277254d10f47f3a54cd.pnj)

1) Smut writer (under a pen name so hilariously troonish I am starting to suspect this is a he after all)
2) Also wrote Rick and Morty Presents: Pickle Rick
3) Mainly works in "steampunk paranormal romances"
4) Lives in Roswell, GA  🛸

Other works by this strong and diverse author include...
Strong and Diverse Females: The Diversening
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/18347a6cf6e192e81c16b91b74054530/d21448a4f9bee90c-da/s1280x1920/65783aca9aa1e30e60e55bc0371b2c5c4571642c.pnj)
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/1cd80b969d2e0f1e24746d0ce771a031/d21448a4f9bee90c-00/s1280x1920/6ae26bb14710f81ca3b3161f6f488ab79598c49c.pnj)

King Mancastle! 👍

But that's not all. Ms. Dawson's other, uh, literary merits invite special consideration. For, as Ava L. Lovelace, she puts the LOVE back into Lovelace. And when I say "LOVE", it is LOVE in a very specific, very-very special way.

(https://64.media.tumblr.com/80157012e631053ef4eef6a3b1e704c6/376e921efa6e0265-93/s1280x1920/67923a863d5ba87f1c0d5e2500f292a44968b3c3.pnj)
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/b793b3d6be59f3fcd60a38528e696c13/376e921efa6e0265-b3/s1280x1920/809f9e70dc0f78ab3444b125aeb83df7be1b9c09.pnj)

This is, shall we say, a lady of very specific interests and very finely honed focus.

(https://64.media.tumblr.com/b15f41ac1300c55342128ce2eb6ee049/376e921efa6e0265-aa/s1280x1920/7e2f6f331ebcf572f5ddcab74e68257f34e562a4.pnj)
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/d236f0a38251c6be619968da55a71134/376e921efa6e0265-9c/s1280x1920/fe6fb54de5f5358de0bc3282277a7b9114d5364a.pnj)

There are 118 of these masterworks.

(https://64.media.tumblr.com/fcf5c3e722433c38781ca53c75077344/376e921efa6e0265-98/s1280x1920/b268dff7aa7ee8c0eeaf2b89fdea2c54a037b09b.pnj)

And, uh, not so masterworks.

Anyway, you can rest assured Ravenloft, and D&D in general, are in good hands. (https://rpgcodex.net/forums/smiles/cavellone.png)

From what I've heard, writing licensed novels for franchises and smut for lonely spinsters are the only ways of making a living as a novelist these days. Not saying it makes her the next Hemingway, but it's pretty much what I would expect. The publishing industry is a trainwreck these days.

Quote from: ForgottenF on November 01, 2024, 06:50:14 PMFrom what I've heard, writing licensed novels for franchises and smut for lonely spinsters are the only ways of making a living as a novelist these days. Not saying it makes her the next Hemingway, but it's pretty much what I would expect. The publishing industry is a trainwreck these days.

I've known a few authors and this us unfortunately true. Steamy romances sell well.

But whooooeee she sure is pushing it with those Lovelace books.

I suspect she does a sort of quirky humor vibe with her stories. Wonder why wotc hired her over their stable of established writers? Aside from most of them being guys.

Thank you, Melan, though I believe I regret the knowledge. :o She seems to have her carved out romance niche, with a Chuck Tingle level of repetition. A prolific output that is not unlike the pulps, might be the kindest thing I can say.

 I was hoping for a modicum of earnest effort in the writing of the novel, to compensate for the MtG Planeswalker, Avengers Assemble!, ChatGPT AI-esque strutting vomitus of a cover. :) And now I can blithely extinguish that hope, too. Was never heavily into the popular franchise novel scene, so I was never really in the market for this novel, but I do respect the Ravenloft setting and hoped for some respect in kind from WotC. Now I expect corporate low-effort shlock of an even lower level than my current day lowered expectations.

:) It's liberating in a way. So I guess that is a 'thank you!'

The new Ravenloft novel is incest porn? Really? Who thought that was a good idea?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 02, 2024, 02:15:51 PMWho thought that was a good idea?

Her father-in-law, perhaps.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 02, 2024, 02:15:51 PMThe new Ravenloft novel is incest porn? Really? Who thought that was a good idea?

No. I don't believe it will be that at all. :) Melan is just pointing out the author has an additional nom de plume side gig that rewards her likely quite well to warrant a vast body of similar work under a rather short period of time. That means the author has fame for churning out large amounts of fetish erotica works, thus leaving questions about her craftsmanship for this novel.

I don't believe her or WotC would try to pass off a taboo fetish in this published work. The risk doesn't seem worth it. However overly prolific fetish work does raise questions about the time dedication to make this novel respect D&D, Ravenloft, its canon and its fans. If you can likely make a better living spinning out pulp-like volumes of fetish erotica what incentive does one have to put more time and effort for a likely less of a return in established (yet still niche) genre speculative publishing?

Quote from: Opaopajr on November 02, 2024, 03:36:04 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 02, 2024, 02:15:51 PMThe new Ravenloft novel is incest porn? Really? Who thought that was a good idea?

No. I don't believe it will be that at all. :) Melan is just pointing out the author has an additional nom de plume side gig that rewards her likely quite well to warrant a vast body of similar work under a rather short period of time. That means the author has fame for churning out large amounts of fetish erotica works, thus leaving questions about her craftsmanship for this novel.

I don't believe her or WotC would try to pass off a taboo fetish in this published work. The risk doesn't seem worth it. However overly prolific fetish work does raise questions about the time dedication to make this novel respect D&D, Ravenloft, its canon and its fans. If you can likely make a better living spinning out pulp-like volumes of fetish erotica what incentive does one have to put more time and effort for a likely less of a return in established (yet still niche) genre speculative publishing?

Greetings!

Well, it seems to me that she already has an established porn audience. Furthermore, she can always continue writing erotica as a side gig, or return to do so as she deems fit. Writing some Ravenloft novel is an excellent opportunity for her to expand her professional resume into something beyond erotica, and also expands her audience into new areas. It is a "Win/Win" opportunity for her in every way.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Opaopajr on November 02, 2024, 01:55:23 AMbut I do respect the Ravenloft setting and hoped for some respect in kind from WotC. Now I expect corporate low-effort shlock of an even lower level than my current day lowered expectations.

It may even be deliberate to get a negative reaction from the cover. Or they just used whatever AI generated and called it a day.

But the cover has that deliberate disonance vibe to it that smacks of outrage marketing.

On the other hand wotc has a dislike of Weiss and Hickman so it could be a big "Take that!". Its the sort of petty thing wotc would also do.

Quote from: Opaopajr on November 02, 2024, 03:36:04 PMI don't believe her or WotC would try to pass off a taboo fetish in this published work.

NEVER expect a writer with a fetish to not try to slip it in somewhere. Wanna lay odds Strahd puts the moves on one of his "Heirs"? wotc has no QC and it will slip past till someone spots it in the book. Very brief working with Stephen King taught me this one the hard way.

If the writer has any common sense she will make these heir's very distant relations to the point of irrelevancy. But odds are that wont happen.

You know. looking at that cover art. Theres parts of it that are really familiar looking. The Kenku, Strahd, the Tiefling... and more... Just cant place where. Its definitely AI as the more look at it the more funky alot of hand and finger placements are.

AI is disgusting. I can understand poor individuals resorting to it, but companies? Fuck off

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 02, 2024, 06:28:14 PMAI is disgusting. I can understand poor individuals resorting to it, but companies? Fuck off

And in this case I would lay good odds they are not drawing from their own library of art.

Not sure but think the orc is pulled near whole cloth from a pic on Reddit or DA last year. And if it was on DA then the original artist is screwed as DA jumped on the AI art theft bandwagon.

Quote from: SHARK on November 02, 2024, 04:04:05 PMGreetings!

Well, it seems to me that she already has an established porn audience. Furthermore, she can always continue writing erotica as a side gig, or return to do so as she deems fit. Writing some Ravenloft novel is an excellent opportunity for her to expand her professional resume into something beyond erotica, and also expands her audience into new areas. It is a "Win/Win" opportunity for her in every way.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

You know what SHARK?, you are right, I am being overly reserved on my expectations of her work from her past output. :) It very much is possible she could be expanding her repertoire and fanbase and she will put extra effort into this one. My cynicism is getting the best of me, especially in an age where others in recent pop media show they were not worth the benefit of the doubt.

She is not them, as far as I know of her work, and you've rekindle the triumph of hope over experience in my jaded heart. :) But I don't want to be the first to buy and read it to find out if my benefit of the doubt was misplaced. I'll let others less jaded than I take the plunge, yet I recant my blasé dismissal of her potential outright. :) It was wrong and I look forward to be proven wrong. Thank you for bringing me back to the light.

Quote from: Omega on November 02, 2024, 04:45:50 PM

Quote from: Opaopajr on November 02, 2024, 03:36:04 PMI don't believe her or WotC would try to pass off a taboo fetish in this published work.

NEVER expect a writer with a fetish to not try to slip it in somewhere. Wanna lay odds Strahd puts the moves on one of his "Heirs"? wotc has no QC and it will slip past till someone spots it in the book. Very brief working with Stephen King taught me this one the hard way.

If the writer has any common sense she will make these heir's very distant relations to the point of irrelevancy. But odds are that wont happen.

You know I'm tempted to ask, but for your professional discretion I will refrain. ;) I'll take your experience to heart, because I've seen similar artistic motifs show their face throughout history. But again, hope over experience, I want to be wrong! :)  -- And no, I won't lay odds, my inner bookie is too cynical for charitable odds. ;)

I am welcome to being pleasantly surprised! :) What a golden opportunity for an artist!

Quote from: Omega on November 01, 2024, 10:53:42 PMWonder why wotc hired her over their stable of established writers? Aside from most of them being guys.

From Wikipedia:

QuoteIn a starred review, Publishers Weekly appreciated that in Dawson's Wake of Vultures, "themes of self-worth, gender, and the complexity of identity are treated with frank realism and sensitivity",

Quote from: Opaopajr on November 02, 2024, 08:51:07 PM

Quote from: SHARK on November 02, 2024, 04:04:05 PMGreetings!

Well, it seems to me that she already has an established porn audience. Furthermore, she can always continue writing erotica as a side gig, or return to do so as she deems fit. Writing some Ravenloft novel is an excellent opportunity for her to expand her professional resume into something beyond erotica, and also expands her audience into new areas. It is a "Win/Win" opportunity for her in every way.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

You know what SHARK?, you are right, I am being overly reserved on my expectations of her work from her past output. :) It very much is possible she could be expanding her repertoire and fanbase and she will put extra effort into this one. My cynicism is getting the best of me, especially in an age where others in recent pop media show they were not worth the benefit of the doubt.

She is not them, as far as I know of her work, and you've rekindle the triumph of hope over experience in my jaded heart. :) But I don't want to be the first to buy and read it to find out if my benefit of the doubt was misplaced. I'll let others less jaded than I take the plunge, yet I recant my blasé dismissal of her potential outright. :) It was wrong and I look forward to be proven wrong. Thank you for bringing me back to the light.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are some very competent writers out there that also do low-effort porn to pay the bills. I know that is the case for some visual artists and animators. Is she one of them? Probably not, but I'd say the feminist girls-get-it-done stuff she's written is a bigger red flag than the library of cheap smut.

Quote from: Omega on November 02, 2024, 04:45:50 PM

QuoteI don't believe her or WotC would try to pass off a taboo fetish in this published work.

NEVER expect a writer with a fetish to not try to slip it in somewhere. Wanna lay odds Strahd puts the moves on one of his "Heirs"? wotc has no QC and it will slip past till someone spots it in the book. Very brief working with Stephen King taught me this one the hard way.

If the writer has any common sense she will make these heir's very distant relations to the point of irrelevancy. But odds are that wont happen.

Yeah, if it's in there it'll be buried under a thick enough layer of plausible deniability. Strahd will likely hit on at least one of the protagonists --It wouldn't be a proper vampire story if he didn't-- but I doubt they'd go so far as the have the flirtee be his literal offspring. I'd expect the "heir" to be explained away with some magical mumbo jumbo, like they inherited a fraction of his soul or something. And I'm sure WOTC would veto any explicit sex in the book. Funny as it would be if there turns out to be an extended scene of the artificer chick getting her cheeks clapped and calling Strahd "daddy", it's probably not going to happen. Corporate art doctrine dictates that you make a point of everyone's sexual proclivities without ever admitting the possibility that they actually fuck.

Quote from: Opaopajr on November 02, 2024, 09:07:30 PMI am welcome to being pleasantly surprised! :) What a golden opportunity for an artist!

Same. The cover could be just baiting or they used the first thing the AI vomited out for the cover and called it a day. But that IS AI and it is pulling heavily from existing art. I just cant place where.

But wotc is involved so odds are that we are in for something wrong in the book. And odds are it would have been an actually good book if wotc had not pushed some agenda.

Quote from: ForgottenF on November 02, 2024, 10:46:42 PMI wouldn't be surprised if there are some very competent writers out there that also do low-effort porn to pay the bills. I know that is the case for some visual artists and animators.

Oh you'd be very surprised at the number of comic book artists who slummed it doing stuff for Warren and other lurid horror publishers way back. I personally know two published novelists who did a fair share of writing for adult comics on the side. And at least two CCG artists who turned to adult comics as the CCG bubble burst.

This is nothing new. From the novelists I talked to it was fairly common as it brought in a paycheck for those who could handle it. Writing romance novels is -not- easy. Writing steamy potboilers is even harder.

Even more funny is I know of at least one romance writer who also write under a different name some gorefest horror novels. Hard to believe these were the same people.

Quote from: Omega on November 04, 2024, 04:01:28 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on November 02, 2024, 10:46:42 PMI wouldn't be surprised if there are some very competent writers out there that also do low-effort porn to pay the bills. I know that is the case for some visual artists and animators.

Oh you'd be very surprised at the number of comic book artists who slummed it doing stuff for Warren and other lurid horror publishers way back. I personally know two published novelists who did a fair share of writing for adult comics on the side. And at least two CCG artists who turned to adult comics as the CCG bubble burst.

This is nothing new. From the novelists I talked to it was fairly common as it brought in a paycheck for those who could handle it. Writing romance novels is -not- easy. Writing steamy potboilers is even harder.

Even more funny is I know of at least one romance writer who also write under a different name some gorefest horror novels. Hard to believe these were the same people.

Yeah. When you write for a full-time living, it's hard to get by in general. Writing some steamy romance and/or porn is often what pays the bills.

I don't know people who write porn novels, but my best friend from high school is a film writer/director who has had to write and even direct a bunch of soft-core porn in order to make ends meet financially.

Quote from: jhkim on November 04, 2024, 06:36:49 PM

Quote from: Omega on November 04, 2024, 04:01:28 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on November 02, 2024, 10:46:42 PMI wouldn't be surprised if there are some very competent writers out there that also do low-effort porn to pay the bills. I know that is the case for some visual artists and animators.

Oh you'd be very surprised at the number of comic book artists who slummed it doing stuff for Warren and other lurid horror publishers way back. I personally know two published novelists who did a fair share of writing for adult comics on the side. And at least two CCG artists who turned to adult comics as the CCG bubble burst.

This is nothing new. From the novelists I talked to it was fairly common as it brought in a paycheck for those who could handle it. Writing romance novels is -not- easy. Writing steamy potboilers is even harder.

Even more funny is I know of at least one romance writer who also write under a different name some gorefest horror novels. Hard to believe these were the same people.

Yeah. When you write for a full-time living, it's hard to get by in general. Writing some steamy romance and/or porn is often what pays the bills.

I don't know people who write porn novels, but my best friend from high school is a film writer/director who has had to write and even direct a bunch of soft-core porn in order to make ends meet financially.

Pretty sure Anne Rice also wrote erotic under a pen name. Even back in the 90s, a couple of the Ravenloft authors wrote vampire romance series (not erotica but not as tame as Ravenloft). I generally don't focus too much on the writers in these cases as writers are hired guns, probably getting a bunch of mandates from WOTC. For me the issue here is really the cover and the premise in the blurb, which suggests the book is unlikely going to be something I will enjoy

Quote from: Garry G on November 01, 2024, 01:03:49 PMI'm not going to watch a video reviewing something that the presenter hasn't read.

1. Argue for your limitations and you will have them, dude.

2. If you're not on this thread to talk about the video, you are by definition posting off topic. Post on this thread again, or any thread with a video as its topic and you didn't watch, and you will be banned for thread derailment.

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on November 04, 2024, 07:50:56 PMI generally don't focus too much on the writers in these cases as writers are hired guns, probably getting a bunch of mandates from WOTC.

One of my first customers for my book was a writer for TSR/wotc. I asked him why one of the books ended so abruptly and he told me it was because they wanted the story cut to meet a page length. Tom Wham had some things to say about writing as well as wotc took over TSR.

As for the cover and the blurb. Cover it like 90% certainly AI generated. Blurb is too uninformative to get a handle on the thing yet. Could go the Scooby Doo route. Chainsaw Massacre route, or something in between.