TheRPGSite

[video=youtube;1UMf8SgSH5A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UMf8SgSH5A&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

I'd actually be interested in watching it, but the whole  "Everything before World of Darkness was stupid fantasy games for NERDS" message is so pathetically self-aggrandizing it wrinkles my brain.

Honestly, I think they're right but for the wrong reasons.

Before the 90's, D&D -was- "a game for nerds".  I mean, you had some toys and a cartoon in the 80's, but the TTRPG hobby/industry was pretty much D&D, and D&D was "nerdy".  

And then four related things happened: computers became big, people who knew how to work computers became important, people wanted to be like the computer savvy folk, and a lot of computer savvy folk were into TTRPGs.  And White Wolf exploded right around the same time computers and "nerd culture" did.

Now, we could go into things White Wolf did (intentionally or not) that made it more mainstream in 10 years than D&D managed in 30.  Things like having a modern setting, simplified mechanics, pushing supplement treadmills and "game book fluff as cheap fantasy literature", and -actively- trying to appeal to women as players.  Meanwhile D&D was getting bought and sold and resold.

tl;dr - White Wolf was very big in the 90's, and D&D wasn't despite (or perhaps because of) being older.

Quote from: san dee jota;948247I mean, you had some toys and a cartoon in the 80's, but the TTRPG hobby/industry was pretty much D&D

Sure, if you discount the hundreds of other RPGs.

Hmm...

"You could not separate the game from club culture and club fashion."

I'm willing to believe that most WoD players are club animals, but that doesn't mean they influenced club culture in any way. I mean, me and five horse racing fan friends might create and publish a horse racing RPG, but the fact that the six of us and our dozens buyers spend all our time at the track would NOT mean that we've had any sort of influence of the millions of horse racing fans who also go to the track and have never heard of us. Now, if they could show (i.g. prove) that most clubgoiers were WoD players, that would mean something. Of course, it's not going to happen.

"The World of Darkness has influenced a whole generation of supernatural entertainment."

Are you quite sure that generation was primarily influenced by WoD (1991-)? And not, say, Anne Rice's novels (1976-) or Gothic literature (Dracula 1897)?

Sure, you are the biggest thing since sliced bread; you just have to pull grandiose statements out of your ass.

Quote from: Premier;948257"The World of Darkness has influenced a whole generation of supernatural entertainment."

Are you quite sure that generation was primarily influenced by WoD (1991-)? And not, say, Anne Rice's novels (1976-) or Gothic literature (Dracula 1897)?

Sure, you are the biggest thing since sliced bread; you just have to pull grandiose statements out of your ass.

Just gonna leave this here - https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/09/08

There was definitely a huge shift when World of Darkness came out. I remember that. But I do agree with Tristram that there were plenty of non-Fantasy RPGs prior to it. Heck my first RPG experience in '86 was a sci-fi mecha-RPG. And I remember playing Batman, TMNT, and Top Secret well before vampire. I think what vampire did was bring a new crowd to gaming. Definitely I saw more women coming into the hobby with vampire, and more people who were not fantasy or science fiction fans. In boston I remember it being really big in Salem and among the new age crowd. But there was also lots of cross over. I was in a regular D&D group and one of our players was super into WoD, and he would frequently run WoD campaigns for us. Also, I do remember there being a sense that WoD was catching up to D&D in the 90s and a lot of the Ravenloft products I bought at that time felt like they were chasing after some of the WoD fanbase.

They utterly ignored the greatest breadth of genres that rpgs had before the rise of Vampire. RPGs were not just D&D prior to Vampire. Horror games were very big before the rise of the WOD. So were all kinds of scifi games. So in fact was the diversity of available superhero games. The field was enormous. And it was only building momentum from those early years of the hobby.

The D20 boom was greater than the boom that Vampire caused. Much greater. It caused a total industry rebirth.

This is the *definition* of SWINERY right there. As a "documentary." Expressed as "the truth."

They are not saying "some gamers were treated like losers back then, there was prejudice." They are saying "gamers WERE losers, dirty nerdy losers, look at how SAD they looked back then before VAMPIRE, the first mature, adult, relevant game for COOL PEOPLE indivisible from the club scene."

It's official now: White Wolf stereotypes are all true!

Even the folks at the Big Purple are against it.

https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?799220-New-White-Wolf-quot-Before-Vampire-RPGs-were-all-childish-fantasy-games-for-losers!-quot

They have some points.  WoD was certainly explicitly tied more into a non-gaming real world subculture than D&D was.  I mean sure, if you look at Computers/D&D, there was a lot of crossover in the populations, but Vampire fed from and was fed upon by the Goth culture to a much greater extent.  It definitely brought in a different crowd, and you do see its influence, even if there is also cross-pollination from Vampire's own sources.

However, just like D&D took those sources, blended them into something different, and became the foundation of the entire fantasy rpg computer game industry, Vampire took those sources, blended them into something different and became the foundation of the entire paranormal romance, urban fantasy/hidden supernatural society literature genres.

Quote from: RF Victor;948269Even the folks at the Big Purple are against it.

https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?799220-New-White-Wolf-quot-Before-Vampire-RPGs-were-all-childish-fantasy-games-for-losers!-quot

The Big Purple hates White Wolf currently.  Serious frothing at the mouth, gather the pitch forks hatred.  Doesn't mean anything.
Edited to add my source: https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?798635-Whitewolf-Hires-Zak-Sabbath-and-Denies-Harassment

As for this "documentary", it looks like an ad.  I'd expect it to oversell everything about World of Darkness.  I will say that as someone who never played WOD stuff (I was mostly played AD&D 2e and Alternity in the 90s), I was still very much aware of it and the impact it had on gaming culture, and I don't think I can say that about any other game systems.  I was just never into the goth thing, except that one time when I dyed my hair black and went to a cool club in an old packing warehouse.

Who cares about ties to non-gaming subculture? (Let's see... oh - posers.)

It's an annoying ad trying to suck attention from the weak willed, which is about the only appropriate aspect I see (given that it's about vampires). The whole genre seems like fantasy for posers to me. So I suppose it's natural that an ad of theirs would be poser-bait.

White Wolf games are their own dumb thing that seems better considered as a related thing. I bought a used copy of their magic-based RPG (Adept? I forget the title, and don't care enough to look it up) and lost what little interest I had after understanding their idea of game mechanics, and realizing I would never want to play that type of game, let alone be able to use anything from it in a game I would want to run.

Trying to claim that they're even the same thing as an RPG, let alone any kind of superior RPG or evolution of RPG, just seems like next-level poser-dom to me.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;948248Sure, if you discount the hundreds of other RPGs.

I do.  I really, really do.

Pre-90's there were other RPGs, but they were small fry.  Call of Cthulhu, Traveler, GURPS, etc.  Big names right?  Nope.  D&D was -the- game in the 80's, and everything else was just churning along in their own little niches, getting by, dreaming of a distant 2nd place behind D&D.  When the 90's rolled along, RPGs went (relatively) mainstream, and that's when you see all those old games come out with new editions and gluts of product.  Just so they could try to reach a distant third place in terms of sales.

"But over in this other country, this popular game was even -bigger- than D&D!"  I'm guessing it was a fantasy game that came out after D&D was already licensed, translated, and the other publisher got sick of seeing all that royalty money disappear?

BADD, Mazes & Monsters, and Dark Dungeons weren't ignoring Call of Cthulhu because they approved of it, but because it was something only a subset of members in a niche hobby even knew about.

This isn't an issue of whether or not other games existed, or were fun, but an issue of market share.  An issue of how many people were playing X vs D&D.  And in that light, pre-90's, D&D ruled the hobby and industry both.

And then it all came crashing down.

Quote from: under_score;948285The Big Purple hates White Wolf currently.[

Enh, they hate the -new- White Wolf.  

They love the old-freelancers-and-staffers-who-used-to-work-for-White-Wolf-but-now-work-for-a-different-company-on-all-the-old-White-Wolf-games that is Onyx Path.  It probably helps that they have a sizable percentage of the mod staff doing freelance work for Onyx Path.

Well, I think a few people are being a bit thin-skinned about it.

White Wolf and Vampire: The Masquerade undoubtedly had an impact on the hobby. While it is certainly true that there were plenty of RPGs out there before Vampire, they were not at all as widely played as they are these days. The bulk of gamers - possibly more than 80% of them - exclusively played D&D/AD&D. Yes games like Traveller, RuneQuest, Call of Cthulhu, Paranoia et al  all had their moments, but they were still only played by a small minority of gamers. What Vampire did, as with a number of other cultural expressions (like Grunge or Tarantino movies) in the early 1990s, was to take the alternative into the mainstream (and playing a game about being Vampires in a modern gothic punk world was pretty alternative to the D&D experience). White Wolf managed to capture about 25% share of the RPG market and maintained it for the best part of 20 years. Other game companies were also then emboldened to pursue their own game's markets by redressing issues of presentation and so on, while others went about driving storytelling design and indie publication.

In terms of the documentary, it's purpose as much as anything is to sell the importance of White Wolf to potentially new audiences, so if it seems a little self-important it's pretty much doing it's job.

Why do you care, and why are you bothering to come to a gaming forum to post it? Or why, if what you care about is sales, don't you just hop to Magic: The Gathering, or Pokemon, or Hollywood films, or pop music, or the fossil fuel industry, since they make all RPGs "small fry" and are "-bigger-"?

Quote from: san dee jota;948290Enh, they hate the -new- White Wolf.  

They love the old-freelancers-and-staffers-who-used-to-work-for-White-Wolf-but-now-work-for-a-different-company-on-all-the-old-White-Wolf-games that is Onyx Path.  It probably helps that they have a sizable percentage of the mod staff doing freelance work for Onyx Path.

Yeah, That's not a conflict of interest at all! :rolleyes:

Whatever happened to an actually independant RPG media? It doesn't exist at the big purple.

Quote from: Skarg;948292Why do you care, and why are you bothering to come to a gaming forum to post it? Or why, if what you care about is sales, don't you just hop to Magic: The Gathering, or Pokemon, or Hollywood films, or pop music, or the fossil fuel industry, since they make all RPGs "small fry" and are "-bigger-"?

What a bizarre response - as if I am supposed to have an existential crisis about why I care and why am I bothering to post!? Why do you care to type on this thread yourself?

Anyway, in response to your comments, neither Magic: The Gathering, Pokemon or Hollywood movies or the fossil fuel industry are the subject being discussed, and White Wolf and their documentary is. In terms of their sales, it is merely an illustration of their cultural impact within the RPG hobby, which was significant.

White Wolf was a cultural zeitgeist, whether you want to believe it or not. It brought mall goth to the fore of the RPG community, bastardized from post-punk music and fashion. Other games at the time - Talislanta, MERP, GURPs, Runequest, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (http://grimandperilous.com), et al. - didn't enjoy the fecundity that White Wolf had with convention-goers. Its spread across the community, in a time when web 2.0 and social media didn't exist as we know it today, was pretty awe-inspiring.

In retrospect, I'm personally glad it's done and over with... for now. 90s 'gothic fiction' wasn't all that exciting to me. However, we know that RPG trends are cyclic. Who knows what will turn up next (https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/02/17/white-wolf-release-new-vampire-the-masquerade-game/).

Quote from: TrippyHippy;948295Anyway, in response to your comments, neither Magic: The Gathering, Pokemon or Hollywood movies or the fossil fuel industry are the subject being discussed, and White Wolf and their documentary is. In terms of their sales, it is merely an illustration of their cultural impact within the RPG hobby, which was significant.

They rode a trend. Which was a once in a lifetime thing nobody is likely to ever see again.

The golden age of the goth movement's popularity ended in the 90's. And by and large, that fandom has become passe`. The world has moved on.

Will they have enough customers to actually make them commercially viable as a company? That's the big question.

In the ensuing years, White Wolf/Onyx Path games have utterly disappeared from brick and morter stores. They are exclusively PDF or print on demand now.

If the next edition of Vampire isn't available from conventional retail outlets. How successful could they possibly be? I don't know. I don't have the sales metrics.

Appealing to a shrinking audience never works in publishing. You have to constantly be cultivating new outlets to even remain viable. And until we know what exactly White Wolf is doing in all of those regards. There is no way to tell if they will actually succeed at producing anything.

"If you're a Goth, why weren't you there when we sacked Rome."

True in the 90s, true now.

And really, the whole "seXAY Vampire" thing has left me colder than a dead mackerel since Anne Rice books were new.

World of Darkness had its time, but it has certainly passed. And D&D seems to still be going on...

I kind of agree with TrippyHippy here, people are being a bit thin-skinned reading into some lines in the trailer (it sounded to me like they were just saying the world tended to see you as a geek or nerd if you were a gamer in those days-----that matches what I remember growing up, and a fair number of us were geeks and nerds to boot). Definitely Vampire changed things a lot. They gave TSR a run for their money and changed the way a lot of people were gaming. There were definitely other games though, and plenty of us were playing them. Most gamers I played with, played D&D but also played TORG, GURPS, TMNT, Cthulu, etc. There were plenty of alternatives around before Vampire game out. But when Vampire landed it was loud. I remember a friend of mine had the book and lent it to me on the bus. It was quite different from what I expected from RPGs. I stuck with D&D, but I saw a lot of folks migrate to WoD. Plenty of people played both, and we had a guy in our group who ran Vampire and Changeling every so often. I think what Vampire did was bring people into the hobby who might not otherwise have thought to play RPGs. And it seemed to connect with the culture of the 90s in the same way D&D had connected with the culture when it first came out.

Calling that a documentary would have been like calling Billy Mays a documentary filmmaker. It's an infomercial for a product that hasn't even been produced yet.

If they are throwing money away on infomercials at this stage. Without even having a product to sell. It raises some serious questions about the business sense of the people involved.

WotC never made a D&D infomercial. And that's because they are really expensive to produce. Well beyond the budget Hasbro grants them.

Quote from: san dee jota;948247pushing supplement treadmills and "game book fluff as cheap fantasy literature",

This is one aspect that I honestly don't understand about modern (= post Dragonlance) module and supplement design and writing.

Why do gamers buy expensive RPG supplements instead of cheaper novels?

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;948304WotC never made a D&D infomercial. And that's because they are really expensive to produce. Well beyond the budget Hasbro grants them.

Actually - I seem to remember several videos produced before 4e to start getting people hyped up.  And while the product as a whole did poorly, losing D&D the #1 slot to Pathfinder until 5e - the release sold out of their initial print-run.  

So... maybe not stupid?

A few thoughts:

1) White Wolf made a big splash in the 90s, and it did bring in some people to TTRPGs who otherwise wouldn't have come to it. No one can deny that. That's about all that is really clear. For an equivalent 90s phenomenon, White Wolf is the sitcom Friends-- it was popular, talked about a lot, brought some serious money to the parent company, and is remembered fondly. No more, no less. Is there any one big thing about WW games that you can point to as an innovation that no one had thought of before and completely changed everything? No, it was Friends, not Seinfeld- but that's probably asking to much of it (although the documentary wants you to think otherwise).

2) The documentary is trying to make you mad. Its' creators knows damn well that it will get more views if we all go sharing it with each other saying, "have you seen this BS?!" If you are upset, you should contact the director of this promo, so they can include "pissed off ____" on their resume/CV.

3) Club culture--Y'know, when I was 12-17, I assumed that clubs I couldn't get into must be exceedingly cool. Even moreso, when at 20 and had started dating a woman with a child, and my Friday nights were full of Candyland and cut-up hotdogs for dinner, I really resented the idea that other people my age were spending their Friday/Saturday nights out at clubs. You know what, I've since been to clubs--they're mostly a bunch of trying-too-hard young people spending money they don't have in the desperate attempt to be cool. Selling WoD/WW as inherently tied to club culture is not going to impress me. Not that I believe it is a real link. I knew lots of WoD players in the 90s, and most of them were people who would have been playing Shadowrun or West End Star Wars or something if WW had never existed.

4) Nerdom and losers-- neither RPGs nor this nebulous beast known as nerd-dom are in any way tied to loser-ness. They are simply a pastime that the socially stunted could engage in because other people could determine whether you were part of it. That was true before the 90s, during the 90s, and after the 90s. Admittedly, since Xfiles, LotR, good Superhero movies, and your grandmother playing computer games, it's a lot harder to argue that nerd-type interests are less mainstream than (say) Monday Night Football. However, WoD had very little to do with that.

5) I do not care what TBP thinks on the matter. They (or at least their forums) are not "independent(sic) RPG media," nor are they supposed to be. They are a collection of individuals expressing opinions. I do not favor TBP's moderation policy or its negative effect on freely expressing one's thoughts. That's why I'm mostly here and not there. That does not mean I'm going to leap on their opinion about either this documentary nor White Wolf as also inherently wrong. They dislike this clip, we dislike this clip. We're allowed to agree on such things.

Anyways, nice little bit of psychological manipulation there in the link. I don't like people implying that people like me (TTRPGers from the pre-WoD era) were losers, but I've been called worse by people whose opinion I value more than these guys.

Quote from: Premier;948257I'm willing to believe that most WoD players are club animals, but that doesn't mean they influenced club culture in any way.

A lot of games from that era seemed to think their audience were going to clubs... all the modern/cyberpunk games seemed to have floorplans of dance clubs in them somewhere. But were gamers really going to them?
The goth kids I knew weren't... well, they went to shows, at bars... but not 'clubs'. They spit on that whole 'dance' subculture. The vampire players I was most aware of couldn't afford going to clubs anyway and wouldn't have gotten the attention they craved there... instead, they cluttered up coffeehouses around the university... and played at the Vampire LARP places on weekends.
They were every bit the same degree of awkward maladroids that the D&D players were... but while the D&D kids were taking computer classes the Vampire kids were all in the theater and art department.

Were the Vampire players really big 'club animals' elsewhere? Was I around the only ones who weren't 'hawt' and cool?

I remember Goth kids being into a melange of industrial and electronic dance music like Skinny Puppy and Front242 so yes there was a good portion of them into clubbing. VtM appealed to more than just goth kids though.

Unfortunately most of the docs about the hobby that I've seen have been uncritical fan projects and this looks like it could be more of the same. Hard to judge from a trailer though as misrepresenting a doc is par for the course in marketing.

A more interesting question I think  is whether they address why VtM went into such decline? And I mean beyond 'it was a game for poseurs.' D&D's sales also fell precipitously in the early 80s as the media panic that temporarily boosted sales faded.

And of course TTRPGs suffered seriously due to the explosion of console and computer games (I think that is where a lot of number crunchers, power gamers and solo gamers disappeared). But why is it that RPGs seem to have historically done such a poor job of recruiting new players? That is one thing I think 5e has actually done a good job at.

Quote from: Voros;948320And of course TTRPGs suffered seriously due to the explosion of console and computer games (I think that is where a lot of number crunchers, power gamers and solo gamers disappeared). But why is it that RPGs seem to have historically done such a poor job of recruiting new players? That is one thing I think 5e has actually done a good job at.

While I don't disagree - I've also read that the prevalence of video games - especially casual - meaning that virtually everyone knows the gist of games is one of the major factors which has led to the recent board game Renaissance.

It's interesting to guess if whether 5e and some other more recent TTRPGs can tap into the same thing.

Quote from: Simlasa;948314A lot of games from that era seemed to think their audience were going to clubs... all the modern/cyberpunk games seemed to have floorplans of dance clubs in them somewhere. But were gamers really going to them?

I have never been into clubs, but back in the 90s, I definitely knew local gamers who went to clubs. And I remember here in Boston there was a goth club called the Manray, and I've known gamers who went there (especially among the WoD crowd). I don't think anyone in my immediate gaming group went as far as I can remember.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;948293Yeah, That's not a conflict of interest at all! :rolleyes:

Whatever happened to an actually independant RPG media? It doesn't exist at the big purple.

What happened to it? You mean like the good old days when we had TSR's Dragon, Games Workshop's White Dwarf, Stever Jackson's Pyramid, GDWs Challenge, and White Wolf's, er, White Wolf to keep the industry honest? Those were the days!

I think there is just an overlap between people motivated to run a forum and people motivated enough to design games. Pundit and Brendan are both part of "The Industry" and are also mods here. I'm fine with that. This is a discussion forum, not a new source, so I don't demand any kind of journalistic credibility. It's just a place to shoot the shit.

As for the documentary ad. Yep. Stupid. I don't really care enough to be offended.

It's kind of a dangerous branch to go out on. I'd wager that fantasy is "cooler" at the moment than the dated '90s club scene they are selling. Nothing is less to cool to young people than what was cool when your parent were young. They would have been better using this relaunch to sell this as something new rather than height of hipness back in 1991.

So San Francisco ties with London as goth mecca (habitually tied with most goth nights, longest running nights, and for a scene just as long), but it also was/is/shall be its own (sub-)mecca for other things: hippies, metal, punk, electronica, LGBT, BDSM, technology, video games, mash ups, etc. And, as much of a gamer as I was and am, back then I was more of a club kid than today. And with that let me say there was a definite look of askance when people tried to pull WoD-isms in the club scene.

Seriously, people are there to see and be seen, chat, drink, dance, & fuck. And not necessarily in that order. Last thing they want to deal with is someone who is playing "let's pretend gang cliques!" when drugs, status, art, and fucking is on the line. These are adults playing adult games, the best we'd do is humor and then give the eye signal "now's not the time."

Did late 90s tech work then, saw all the rivet-head IT cubicles in Silicon Valley, saw the outré artistes Apple Mac cubicles in the art & design dept, etc. and could easily recognize the faces who showed up to which dance club scenes. Most of these working professionals there were into the music and style, not some laughable bougeosie "undead" gang for college-bound suburbanites. That WW-WoD fixated fans were in my early college days where youth who lived in Boringtown, USA brought with them their LARP coffeehouse rebel cred just like the ex-student class presidents and Jr ROTC kids did.

White Wolf is overstating things to get controvery attention, news at eleven.

Was it important in the RPG gamer scene? I presume so, but I was mostly in the tail end of that 90s scene. I got (back?) into RPGs from Uni cow town boredom, and even then partying came first. The rest of you have to fill those gaps for me.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;948306Why do gamers buy expensive RPG supplements instead of cheaper novels?

As a springboard into juicy daydreams about ideal campaigns they might play or run. There's just something enticing about all those carefully intertwined bits of fluff, rules, and art, like coveted toys still fresh in their perfectly designed boxes, unsullied by the disappointments of actual play.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;948322While I don't disagree - I've also read that the prevalence of video games - especially casual - meaning that virtually everyone knows the gist of games is one of the major factors which has led to the recent board game Renaissance.

It's interesting to guess if whether 5e and some other more recent TTRPGs can tap into the same thing.

I do think the recent explosion in board games has already benefited 5e. All the board game stores and cafes in town have at least one shelf with 5e D&D hardbacks and dice. There is only one store that carries any other RPGs besides 5e D&D.

Quote from: Baulderstone;948325What happened to it? You mean like the good old days when we had TSR's Dragon, Games Workshop's White Dwarf, Stever Jackson's Pyramid, GDWs Challenge, and White Wolf's, er, White Wolf to keep the industry honest? Those were the days!

Haha yeah I thought the same thing when I read that. Just like the video game press, there has never really been an independent professional press for RPGs. The closest we probably came to that was Imagine but Gygax shut them down partially because they wouldn't toe the line and even dared to criticize AD&D. Biting the hand that fed them, or at least the hand that held their leash.

Amateurwise though there seems to have been a vital stream of independent criticism in the APAs. Hence why Gygax wrote that amusingly self important screed in Dragon to those who would dare to talk back. Today we have blogs taking that role to a degree but I get the feeling that it is trendy to shit on anything 'mainstream' (i.e. 5e D&D, always D&D) while overpraising much mediocre indie or OSR material (in addition to a fair amount of deserved praise for good to great material).

Quote from: Baulderstone;948325What happened to it? You mean like the good old days when we had TSR's Dragon, Games Workshop's White Dwarf, Stever Jackson's Pyramid, GDWs Challenge, and White Wolf's, er, White Wolf to keep the industry honest? Those were the days!

I'm clearly of an older generation than you are. I remember Steve Jackson's Space Gamer and a wealth of different independant gaming publications that had no affiliation with game companies at all. Other than having them as advertisers.

Back in those days, even Dragon and White Dwarf covered articles on games that their respective companies didn't straight up own. The era of those independant `zines existed well into the 90's.

QuoteI think there is just an overlap between people motivated to run a forum and people motivated enough to design games. Pundit and Brendan are both part of "The Industry" and are also mods here. I'm fine with that. This is a discussion forum, not a new source, so I don't demand any kind of journalistic credibility. It's just a place to shoot the shit.

Pundit and Brendan (as far as I know) don't actively use their mod positions to silence conversation and negative opinions on any kind of RPG products they happen to have an affiliation with. They do not push the company line and company's interests while moderating this site. Nor do they pander to an atmosphere of "us vs. them". When it comes to the relationship between outspoken critics and game authors. Nor do they treat game authors as some type of protected class.

Over on the purple. It's habitual. They don't even try to hide it.

QuoteIt's kind of a dangerous branch to go out on. I'd wager that fantasy is "cooler" at the moment than the dated '90s club scene they are selling. Nothing is less to cool to young people than what was cool when your parent were young. They would have been better using this relaunch to sell this as something new rather than height of hipness back in 1991.

Back in the heyday of White Wolf. It was still fantastically stupid of them to down talk other people in the hobby just because they played different games.  And they faced quite a bit of backlash when they jumped on the D20 bandwagon. After they had spent the entire prior history of their existance badmouthing the audience composed of the very gamers they suddenly wanted to making money from.

It was stupid then. It is stupid now. Same arrogance, different decade.

Quote from: Voros;948333Haha yeah I thought the same thing when I read that. Just like the video game press, there has never really been an independent professional press for RPGs.

It is kinda too bad that it doesn't exist, especially with the plethora of indies out there.  It'd be nice to get a consistent source for reviews etc.  Sure - there are RPG reviews scattered about the interwebs, but even they aren't a fanboy and/or friend of the designer, there's no real baseline if you haven't read several of their reviews before, preferably at least a one or two which are games that you've played.

But really - TTRPGs are probably too niche to have a consistent/independent professional press.  The video game press has actually gotten a lot better the last few years - in part likely because video games have gone mainstream enough that they aren't as reliant upon video games to buy all their advertising.  Even a TTRPG equivalent of Wil Wheaton's Tabletop would be nice.  Sure he's a fanboy - but he generally only brings up the games he likes to begin with and does a pretty decent overview - though not a critical one.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;948304WotC never made a D&D infomercial. And that's because they are really expensive to produce. Well beyond the budget Hasbro grants them.

They did in a way for 4e. And it backfired so spectacularly. One reason WOTC hasnt done much with D&D like cartoons or movies is mainly Solomon still blockading them from making any sort of movie or TV media for D&D. Wether that extends to commercials is anyones guess. And after Hasbro got burned on a few movie deals they pulled back even more.

As for this "documentary"... er... That was... special.

Im really not sure what the hell that is. It looks more like an advertisement disguised as a documentary. WOTC did much the same on a much smaller scale once.

This could all just be an "outrage advertising" ploy some marketing people think is a great idea. Could be just more pretentious twattery. Could be anything. But yeah it does come across as pretentious. And just plain false in a few spots. Which probably means its more likely and outrage advertising gag.

Who knows. The storm will die down sooner or later.

Quote from: Omega;948356They did in a way for 4e. And it backfired so spectacularly.

It did?  I seem to remember that 4e's initial release was very successful and it was only after people got into it and didn't like the mechanics that it failed.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;948335Nor do they pander to an atmosphere of "us vs. them". When it comes to the relationship between outspoken critics and game authors.

Pundits' blog jeremiads against 'Swine', WoD, Ron Edwards and others doesn't create an atmopshere of 'us vs. them'? Not so sure about that but I guess we stay OT and avoid another political derail.

When VtM was at its peak my involvement in the RPG 'community' didn't extend past reading the occasional issue of Dragon so I never saw any patronizing talk from WW. Any actual quotes or text to that effect?

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;948323I have never been into clubs, but back in the 90s, I definitely knew local gamers who went to clubs. And I remember here in Boston there was a goth club called the Manray, and I've known gamers who went there (especially among the WoD crowd). I don't think anyone in my immediate gaming group went as far as I can remember.

I suspect some WOD or cyberpunk gamers went to clubs to see if they were anything like that was being described in the games.

Similar to how some players will hit up museums to see real examples of weapons or armour. Or go out hiking and/or camping and/or caving. Or learned swordplay, smithing, costuming etc.

I'd lay good odds there are Traveller players who have visited space museums or gotten into model rocketry.

So checking out a club isnt anything special in and of itself.

Quote from: Baulderstone;948325What happened to it? You mean like the good old days when we had TSR's Dragon, Games Workshop's White Dwarf, Stever Jackson's Pyramid, GDWs Challenge, and White Wolf's, er, White Wolf to keep the industry honest? Those were the days!

There was a time when all, or at least most (aside from White Wolf/Inphobia/Whateverthehell), were actually rather honest about product and posted reviews of their own material by outside reviewers. Some of which was not all praise. Unfortunately most also eventually degenerated into self focused monstrosities. Dragon and White Dwarf being the twin posterchildren for monumental failure.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;948297Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (http://grimandperilous.com)

You linked to your product while writing "warhammer fantasy roleplay".  Zweihander is NOT Warhammer.

Don't do that again. Consider this a formal moderator warning.  

We give tons of leeway to regularly-posting members to write and promote their games on here, because I think that's fine, a lot of readers will be interested in the games RPGsite members are making. So if you are an RPG-designer, please try not to abuse that permissiveness.

Quote from: RF Victor;948269This is the *definition* of SWINERY right there. As a "documentary." Expressed as "the truth."

They are not saying "some gamers were treated like losers back then, there was prejudice." They are saying "gamers WERE losers, dirty nerdy losers, look at how SAD they looked back then before VAMPIRE, the first mature, adult, relevant game for COOL PEOPLE indivisible from the club scene."

It's official now: White Wolf stereotypes are all true!

Even the folks at the Big Purple are against it.

https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?799220-New-White-Wolf-quot-Before-Vampire-RPGs-were-all-childish-fantasy-games-for-losers!-quot

It's not like WoD hasn't been doing that since FOREVER.  They've ALWAYS been about calling D&D gamers the 'great unwashed'.

Dragon and White Dwarf's degeneration into game company organs were inevitable since that was who owned them. What was needed was a magazine incorporated as a business or non-profit all on its own with enough advertising revenue to be a viable and ongoing concern.

Quote from: Voros;948373Dragon and White Dwarf's degeneration into game company organs were inevitable since that was who owned them. What was needed was a magazine incorporated as a business or non-profit all on its own with enough advertising revenue to be a viable and ongoing concern.

It existed in the early 90's. The magazine was called Shadis. And it printed articles and adventures for virtually every RPG under the sun. They were a perfect example of independant RPG press.

I went to a San Diego Comic Con with one of the editors of that magazine. It's a pity it didn't last longer.

It was actually the magazine that spawned the Knights Of The Dinner Table comic strip.

Listen up Nerdasaurs and I will poop wisdom into your geek brains!

:p


WoD's popularity was NOT about the tabletop. It was all about the LARPing.

The LARP community for WoD phenomenally outsized the WoD tabletop players, and it was that Live Action community that drew in the boobies.

Why? Because LARPs is where the fashion, the dancing and acting occurred. It was a "safe space" for the goths to go ultra-goth for fun and "gamified" goth culture.

Suddenly, your makeup, hair and clothes could be part of stories and winning competitions (social status in the Camarilla, faction feuds, vendettas, etc). Many WoD LARP groups created massive on-going costume soap operas.

You remember soaps? They used to be on TV during the afternoon making a fuckton of money. Then prime time TV realized WTF and now we have almost every series of anything devoted to "on going storylines"...aka soap operas. And people love them.

And Vampire LARPS were AWESOME fun. Like holy shit, I can't believe its almost 5am and we're totally immersed with dozens of people in this crazy drama to unseat the imaginary Prince of the City, can't wait to do this this next weekend too, fun. Oh, and did I mention girls in busty outfits? Did I mention that LOTS of real sex happened before, during and after those WOD LARPS?

Be honest - how much sexytime occurred around tabletop games?

As for the fashion, it turns out most of us look better in black.

Oh...and gay guys and gals were accepted in the LARP circles - for a variety of reasons, and some due to the era, and they added to the scene tremendously. Romance / domination / sexuality wasn't a thing in D&D or even most tabletop WoD games, but it certainly was a HUGE aspect of WoD LARPS.

So it's no surprise there would be LOTS of nostalgia for the era.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;948298They rode a trend. Which was a once in a lifetime thing nobody is likely to ever see again.

The golden age of the goth movement's popularity ended in the 90's. And by and large, that fandom has become passe`.

That's true for everything.

The superhero movie thing is today's western. Fads come and go, and if a company can ride the zeitgeist of the moment, they can make money then and later cash in on the nostalgia.

Also, fashion is cyclical. Neo-goths are only a moment away as the fashions winds blow.

Quote from: Simlasa;948314Were the Vampire players really big 'club animals' elsewhere? Was I around the only ones who weren't 'hawt' and cool?

Gamers, like other humans, may have multiple hobbies.

Thus, WoD fans who loved to dance or who loved to club...went to clubs.

As the WoD "scene" had more females than the D&D "scene", the WoD fans had more people into fashion, dance and clubbing.

And when a girl tells a boy she would like to go to a club, the boy says yes. (and pays her cover charge and buys her drinks)

Because poontang.


Did I ever paint my nails black? No.

Did I ever have black painted nails? Yes.

Because poontang.


Do I prefer Werewolf to Vampire? Fuck yeah.

Did I play megafucktons more Vampire than Werewolf? Fuck yeah.

Why? See above.

Quote from: Spinachcat;948383Because poontang.

Do I prefer Werewolf to Vampire? Fuck yeah.

Did I play megafucktons more Vampire than Werewolf? Fuck yeah.

Why? See above.

Out of passing tangential curiosity, did werewolf have a LARP scene of any significance?

Quote from: Spinachcat;948383Also, fashion is cyclical. Neo-goths are only a moment away as the fashions winds blow.
.

I think this is true. WoD is experiencing a lot of the same aging issues many things from the 90s are experiencing. But during the 90s people mocked and made fun of anything with a strong 80s aesthetic, then people dabbled in enjoying it ironically, now 80s stuff is genuinely enjoyed again.

Yeah I notice that a lot of modernday 'indie' synth pop has started to sound reminiscent of song-oriented 80s industrial like Chris and Cosey or what have you. It may be that goth as a fashion will revive with the music in time. A Republican in the White House always helps turn indie music darker too.

Quote from: Spinachcat;948383...Did I mention that LOTS of real sex happened before, during and after those WOD LARPS?

What is this thing 'real sex' you speak of??

Quote from: Spinachcat;948383Listen up Nerdasaurs and I will poop wisdom into your geek brains!

Be honest - how much sexytime occurred around tabletop games?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]716[/ATTACH]

My Vampire was GURPS Vampire, dude. So you know the answer to your question already.

A lot. A LOT of sexytime.

Quote from: Opaopajr;948328And with that let me say there was a definite look of askance when people tried to pull WoD-isms in the club scene.

I can back up everything Opaopajr said, but from experience in the Los Angeles scene.

I was more into the underground rave / electronica scene than the goth scene back then, and lots of goth girls could be seen there too. You could always tell the "WoD fan" from the hardcore club kids, but that's always common with those on the periphery of a scene vs. the hardcores.

Also, even the WoD gamers at goth clubs were there for the music, dancing and the scene - not to play Vampire. Did the music and scene influence our tabletop and our LARPS? Absolutely...just like how RennFaire and SCA fighting influenced our D&D games. It was pulling experiences in one hobby to add to our other hobby.

For the record, my attendance at goth clubs was limited because you had to actually know how to dance. I only can wobble about like a retard, which was perfect for raves. Seriously. Look at videos of dudes at Electric Daisyland. Hopping about waving your hands in the air didn't cut it in the goth clubs. In comparison to real goth club kids, I was a special olympics vampire. :(

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;948330As a springboard into juicy daydreams about ideal campaigns they might play or run. There's just something enticing about all those carefully intertwined bits of fluff, rules, and art, like coveted toys still fresh in their perfectly designed boxes, unsullied by the disappointments of actual play.

This is the saddest and most accurate description of the success of splatbook mill I have ever encountered.

Shipyard, I shall burn a supplement in your honor!!

Quote from: Spinachcat;948383WoD's popularity was NOT about the tabletop. It was all about the LARPing.

Yeah, I kinda figured it was the same way around here. The coffeehouse vamps I first encountered were doing it in and around the University. But nowadays, when people bring up those days they're mostly all reminiscing about the LARP. We had a big place here dedicated to it, run by one of the comic shops.
I never went (or played the RPG either)... later on it turned out some nasty stuff was going on and that was around the time that whole scene seemed to dry up and blow away. Coffeehouses by the university closed and were replaced by corporate chains that weren't inviting to droves of people who wanted to hang out and not buy anything. The cool comic shops were replaced by clean places where everything was sealed in plastic.

QuoteGamers, like other humans, may have multiple hobbies.

Thus, WoD fans who loved to dance or who loved to club...went to clubs.

I'm sure some did... I just didn't think it was a huge portion of the WOD players I was aware of. Maybe a couple times to check it out... but not 'club animals', the people in the club scene who were there almost every night of the week... because that's a whole 'nother LARP of its own. We only had a couple of them here at the time...
But now that I am reminiscing... there WAS a little place I heard the goths talking about that might have been a 'club'... about the size of a Wendy's.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;948385Out of passing tangential curiosity, did werewolf have a LARP scene of any significance?

Sadly, I never encountered many.

And when I ran them, they were sausage fests and not well attended. I co-hosted 3-5 dozen person Vamp LARPs at LA Cons, but my Werewolf only events only got a dozen or so dudes. So instead, I (and other GMs) would run WoD LARPS where there were Vamps, Weres, and Mages in competition. Those drew 2-3 dozen pretty easy BUT as a comparison the midnight Camarilla event (Official Vampire LARP) could easily draw 100 people (and 250 at its height).

BTW, the assgoblins at WW would only support "official" LARPS so my crews never saw any freebies. However, sometimes WW would send a box of books to the Cam events and we would snag all the non-Vamp stuff.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;948330As a springboard into juicy daydreams about ideal campaigns they might play or run. There's just something enticing about all those carefully intertwined bits of fluff, rules, and art, like coveted toys still fresh in their perfectly designed boxes, unsullied by the disappointments of actual play.

Harsh but sadly true. :)

Quote from: Omega;948368There was a time when all, or at least most (aside from White Wolf/Inphobia/Whateverthehell), were actually rather honest about product and posted reviews of their own material by outside reviewers. Some of which was not all praise.

Sure. They had coverage of other games. And both rpg.net and the this forum both allow outside reviewers to contribute.

QuoteUnfortunately most also eventually degenerated into self focused monstrosities. Dragon and White Dwarf being the twin posterchildren for monumental failure.

The real monstrosity of degeneration was Inphobia. White Dwarf was at least a functional mini catalog for Warhammer fans after its fall. Inphobia was garbage even for White Wolf fans.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;948378It existed in the early 90's. The magazine was called Shadis. And it printed articles and adventures for virtually every RPG under the sun. They were a perfect example of independant RPG press.

I went to a San Diego Comic Con with one of the editors of that magazine. It's a pity it didn't last longer.

It was actually the magazine that spawned the Knights Of The Dinner Table comic strip.

Yeah, Shadis was a good magazine. Good call. White Wolf magazine was actually completely independent in the '80s before they merged with Lion Rampant as well.

Quote from: Voros;948390Yeah I notice that a lot of modernday 'indie' synth pop has started to sound reminiscent of song-oriented 80s industrial like Chris and Cosey.

Whoa, you just took me back like 25 odd years. Throbbing Gristle was one of my favorite bands back in the day.

Quote from: Voros;948391What is this thing 'real sex' you speak of??

It's a thing we used to do in the 90s, before the internet.

Hair metal hasn't made its return yet. So I think looking wistfully back at the 90's is being a bit premature.

I am genuinely triggered over how morally outraged I am about how little I'm morally outraged about this video.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;948330As a springboard into juicy daydreams about ideal campaigns they might play or run. There's just something enticing about all those carefully intertwined bits of fluff, rules, and art, like coveted toys still fresh in their perfectly designed boxes, unsullied by the disappointments of actual play.

It's quotes like this that keep me coming back to this site.

Quote from: Voros;948391What is this thing 'real sex' you speak of??

I've heard of this, but I'm not sure what it is.

Quote from: Voros;948373Dragon and White Dwarf's degeneration into game company organs were inevitable since that was who owned them. What was needed was a magazine incorporated as a business or non-profit all on its own with enough advertising revenue to be a viable and ongoing concern.

Off topic. Dragao Brasil ran for years and was a company organ for Defensores de Tóquio yet throughout its run continued to do articles for D&D, Storyteller, Gurps and occasionally other systems like Shadowrun, Cyberpunk 2020 and even the HeroQuest board game which isnt even an RPG. Backstab was a house organ for Polaris but seemed it did not fall into the same pattern as Dragon and WD. (disclaimer: I only have a few sporadic early issues of Backstab so its possible it devolved later.)

LARP was what made WoD so big in the 90's. They were everywhere.

In Roanoke, Virginia, there were VTM LARP's full of Goth burnouts in their thirties and early forties as late as 2012. I was one of only two or three Millennials who attended the LARP and I stayed in the longest and played the most before the insufferable nature of said Goth burnouts finally got to me and I got in a massive spat with one of the more right-leaning, Bible-thumping Goths (we'll call him Chuck for now). Chuck was an asshole and so were most of the people in the 2011-2012 Roanoke LARP scene (there were some good LARP'ers, but the majority of them avoided the Downtown Roanoke LARP scene and just gamed at the larger convention LARP's). Chuck himself barely LARP'ed by this point, preferring just to hang around and bitch about everything. He was also obsessed with Mage: The Ascension and was a total control freak and all-around right-wing asshole.

Said LARPs dated back to as early as 1995 in some cases. In 1996, the Roanoke LARP scene was so massive, it had over a hundred players and was mentioned in a major article in the Roanoke Times (the local newspaper). Mike Boaz, who would be one of the developers for Mind's Eye Theatre: Laws of the Ascension (the Mage LARP rules for oWoD) was a part of the Roanoke LARP scene back then (though he had left a long time before I even moved to Roanoke, let alone started LARP'ing there), I even met his ex-wife and LARP'ed with her. Although she was one of the Goths, she is actually a decent human being and someone whom I respect, unlike most of the Goths and Punks in the forsaken shithole that is the Roanoke Valley.

I would have loved to have been in the VTM LARPs back at the peak of their popularity in the 90's. Unfortunately, I was born in 1993, and I'm not sure the Goths at these LARPs would have appreciated a guy like me, the kind of guy who loves watching anime, drinking straight whiskey, and listening to Creedence Clearwater Revival and The Stanley Brothers instead of Sisters of Mercy and Type O Negative. I do wear a lot of black though, but that's because black is my favorite color. Not because of any fashion statement.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;948385Out of passing tangential curiosity, did werewolf have a LARP scene of any significance?

From all I gathered as a really early playtester and later from the local VLARP group. Apparently no.

Reason.

Its alot harder to costume as and nigh impossible to go out in public as without hassles.

This is also why Call of Cthulhu, Vampire and to a lesser degree Cyberpunk and some Sci-Fi games are more popular for LARPs. Easier to costume and to some degree able to double as street clothes. Props are easier to find or make too. Though some of the Cthulhu props can get really elabourate.

Fantasy LARPs are the hardest to costume and prop for if you want anything remotely serious.

Quote from: Omega;948419From all I gathered as a really early playtester and later from the local VLARP group. Apparently no.

Reason.

Its alot harder to costume as and nigh impossible to go out in public as without hassles.

This is also why Call of Cthulhu, Vampire and to a lesser degree Cyberpunk and some Sci-Fi games are more popular for LARPs. Easier to costume and to some degree able to double as street clothes. Props are easier to find or make too. Though some of the Cthulhu props can get really elabourate.

Fantasy LARPs are the hardest to costume and prop for if you want anything remotely serious.

Pretty much this.

Also, I'm curious as why we didn't get any Mage LARP rules until near the end of the oWoD's run but Werewolf got greenlit for LARP adaptations a year after Vampire did. You'd think Mage would've made for a better and more marketable experience for LARP than Werewolf would. While Vampire is obviously the best choice for WoD LARP for many reasons, I wonder why they went with adapting Werewolf before Mage. Mage was fairly popular in tabletop format and was the third game released, and probably would be better for LARP than Werewolf. Yet Mage didn't get LARP rules until around 2000 or 2001, while Vampire got LARP rules in 1993 and Werewolf in 1994.

You know I wish them the best of luck because they are doing one thing I like.  By hiring ZakS White Wolf pissed off the toxic Onyx Path freelancers slash rpg.net moderators.  We should be celebrating this.

I was a Mage: The Ascension fan. It was easily the CWoD game I had the most fun with.

However. Adapting the Sphere magic system to LARP I could see as being a complete nightmare. It was simply just too abstract. So I'm guessing that's why it took so long to pull off with any credibility.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;948422I was a Mage: The Ascension fan. It was easily the CWoD game I had the most fun with.

However. Adapting the Sphere magic system to LARP I could see as being a complete nightmare. It was simply just too abstract. So I'm guessing that's why it took so long to pull off with any credibility.

That would explain a lot. Mage mechanics would be a bitch to adapt to LARP, especially so early on in its run.

Quote from: Spinachcat;948397I can back up everything Opaopajr said, but from experience in the Los Angeles scene.

I was more into the underground rave / electronica scene than the goth scene back then, and lots of goth girls could be seen there too. You could always tell the "WoD fan" from the hardcore club kids, but that's always common with those on the periphery of a scene vs. the hardcores.

Also, even the WoD gamers at goth clubs were there for the music, dancing and the scene - not to play Vampire. Did the music and scene influence our tabletop and our LARPS? Absolutely...just like how RennFaire and SCA fighting influenced our D&D games. It was pulling experiences in one hobby to add to our other hobby.

For the record, my attendance at goth clubs was limited because you had to actually know how to dance. I only can wobble about like a retard, which was perfect for raves. Seriously. Look at videos of dudes at Electric Daisyland. Hopping about waving your hands in the air didn't cut it in the goth clubs. In comparison to real goth club kids, I was a special olympics vampire. :(

Wha? The SoCal scene had some of the better house dancers. Granted their scenes did not blend nearly as much as Northern California, so they were a bit specialized. SF Bay dancers were a heady eclectic of many, many styles and oftwn put their whole body into the mix. But that's because we didn't mind if people hopped around different scenes to groove & learn a new thing or two.

Oh, you must've been in the massives trance rooms, pogo-ing! Usually in those we had the NordiTrackers, whistlers, pogos, glo-stick novices, palau practioners in the back, light show giver (they gadfly the puddlers, esp. any rollin' women), true glowstick ninjas, headbangers, liquid dancers, turfers, two-steppers, tribal bellydancers (SF regional), etc.

You never know, you might've ran into me back in the day! I traveled to some SoCal shows. Though I rarely believe someone is hopeless in dance. I'd have to do a diagnostic to see if your rhythm and expression is hopeless.

Quote from: Spinachcat;948383Be honest - how much sexytime occurred around tabletop games?.

By 1990 I'd been married to my second wife for three years.  I didn't need, or want, "sexytime around tabletop games."

I play RPGs to do things I CAN'T do in real life.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;948293Yeah, That's not a conflict of interest at all! :rolleyes:

Whatever happened to an actually independant RPG media? It doesn't exist at the big purple.

Clearly what we need is a campaign for Ethics in RP-Gamer Journalism...

Quote from: Simlasa;948314A lot of games from that era seemed to think their audience were going to clubs... all the modern/cyberpunk games seemed to have floorplans of dance clubs in them somewhere. But were gamers really going to them?
The goth kids I knew weren't... well, they went to shows, at bars... but not 'clubs'. They spit on that whole 'dance' subculture. The vampire players I was most aware of couldn't afford going to clubs anyway and wouldn't have gotten the attention they craved there... instead, they cluttered up coffeehouses around the university... and played at the Vampire LARP places on weekends.

Yeah, Goth students hanging around University coffeehouses sounds a lot more plausible than the idea of typical Vampire players as coke-snorting Manhattanite club-goers.

Quote from: Opaopajr;948328Seriously, people are there to see and be seen, chat, drink, dance, & fuck. And not necessarily in that order. Last thing they want to deal with is someone who is playing "let's pretend gang cliques!" when drugs, status, art, and fucking is on the line.

Yet back in the day when downtown Orlando was my hunting ground (don't judge me), I found one's 'ability' at LARPing quite often got you those things. In fact, I would say the biggest problem with LARPs are the status networks which can form around them.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;948330As a springboard into juicy daydreams about ideal campaigns they might play or run. There's just something enticing about all those carefully intertwined bits of fluff, rules, and art, like coveted toys still fresh in their perfectly designed boxes, unsullied by the disappointments of actual play.

#Poetry

Quote from: Spinachcat;948397my attendance at goth clubs was limited because you had to actually know how to dance.

It's not that hard. Remember, this was a club scene designed for white people.

P.S. Also do not search for 'Goth Dance' on YouTube.

Quote from: san dee jota;948287I do.  I really, really do.

Pre-90's there were other RPGs, but they were small fry.  Call of Cthulhu, Traveler, GURPS, etc.  Big names right?  Nope.  D&D was -the- game in the 80's, and everything else was just churning along in their own little niches, getting by, dreaming of a distant 2nd place behind D&D.  When the 90's rolled along, RPGs went (relatively) mainstream, and that's when you see all those old games come out with new editions and gluts of product.  Just so they could try to reach a distant third place in terms of sales.

"But over in this other country, this popular game was even -bigger- than D&D!"  I'm guessing it was a fantasy game that came out after D&D was already licensed, translated, and the other publisher got sick of seeing all that royalty money disappear?

BADD, Mazes & Monsters, and Dark Dungeons weren't ignoring Call of Cthulhu because they approved of it, but because it was something only a subset of members in a niche hobby even knew about.

This isn't an issue of whether or not other games existed, or were fun, but an issue of market share.  An issue of how many people were playing X vs D&D.  And in that light, pre-90's, D&D ruled the hobby and industry both.

And then it all came crashing down.

Sorry, man, but while your point about BADD and the rest might be true, it's laughably untrue where you mention "other countries":). I'm sure that it worked like that in some places, but here are the European countries I'd been following.
In Sweden, Drakar och Demoner was published in the beginning of the 80ies, and was AFAICT the first. It was most certainly the biggest for quite a while. D&D wasn't published yet, AFAICT.
In France, L'Appel de Cthulhu (that's CoC in French for you, not Trail of Chtulhu) has been published in the 80ies, too, with the RPGs not getting there until the end of the 70ies. D&D is only published in 1983, years after RPGs are already popular. CoC has achieved a huge following, much bigger market share than in the USA (or maybe already had it when D&D was published).
In Bulgaria, D&D has never been published. There have been 2 local games that have been published, and one of them has 3 different editions (without backwards compatibility and with setting changes). I'm helping playtest of the third and working on my own, but hell knows if and when any of them would be published.
In Finland, Runequest was THE name for RPGs at the start, according to anecdotal sources (I can't really check). What we know for sure is that the first Finnish tabletop role-playing game, released in 1986, was The Secret Treasure of Raquoc in the Acirema Dungeons (currently translated in English and free, so I suspect no royalties were ever paid).

I hope you see the point by now;). D&D ruled the market in the USA, but the world is much larger.

Quote from: S'mon;948452Clearly what we need is a campaign for Ethics in RP-Gamer Journalism...

That might not be the best idea...:D

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;948454#Poetry

[video=youtube_share;OjksfpbHiZU]https://youtu.be/OjksfpbHiZU[/youtube]

It's not that hard. Remember, this was a club scene designed for white people.

P.S. Also do not search for 'Goth Dance' on YouTube.

Why would anyone need a video to teach you how to dance like a drunken zombie:D?

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;948454It's not that hard. Remember, this was a club scene designed for white people.

P.S. Also do not search for 'Goth Dance' on YouTube.

The one time I went to a goth club in Baltimore... the 'dancing' I saw was more like strolling, guys on the dance floor doing this thing where they'd walk around each other, with attitude.

Quote from: san dee jota;948287I do.  I really, really do.

Pre-90's there were other RPGs, but they were small fry.  Call of Cthulhu, Traveler, GURPS, etc.  Big names right?  Nope.  D&D was -the- game in the 80's, and everything else was just churning along in their own little niches, getting by, dreaming of a distant 2nd place behind D&D.  When the 90's rolled along, RPGs went (relatively) mainstream, and that's when you see all those old games come out with new editions and gluts of product.  Just so they could try to reach a distant third place in terms of sales.

"But over in this other country, this popular game was even -bigger- than D&D!"  I'm guessing it was a fantasy game that came out after D&D was already licensed, translated, and the other publisher got sick of seeing all that royalty money disappear?

BADD, Mazes & Monsters, and Dark Dungeons weren't ignoring Call of Cthulhu because they approved of it, but because it was something only a subset of members in a niche hobby even knew about.

This isn't an issue of whether or not other games existed, or were fun, but an issue of market share.  An issue of how many people were playing X vs D&D.  And in that light, pre-90's, D&D ruled the hobby and industry both.

And then it all came crashing down.

well, here is why that's nonsense:

McDonalds is easily one of the most successful restaurant franchises in the world. To compare it to other franchises, its pretty far ahead of most of them, give or take. To take into account non-franchised restaurants, they are all "small fry" in comparison. If someone were to say, however, "no other restuarants exist besides MCDonalds", that claim would obviously be absurd, verging on insanity. And thats basically what you are proposing.

Secondly, White Wolf NEVER outsold D&D. Thats a gamer myth. The first RPG to outsell D&D was Pathfinder...another version of D&D.

Quote from: S'mon;948452Clearly what we need is a campaign for Ethics in RP-Gamer Journalism...

As long as money or product is crossing palms that is not likely to last long. And then theres the whole politics problem and all the other hangups.

And its the same over on the board gaming side and probably the PC/Console gaming side too.

Quote from: AsenRG;948457Sorry, man, but while your point about BADD and the rest might be true, it's laughably untrue where you mention "other countries":). I'm sure that it worked like that in some places, but here are the European countries I'd been following.
In Sweden, Drakar och Demoner was published in the beginning of the 80ies, and was AFAICT the first. It was most certainly the biggest for quite a while. D&D wasn't published yet, AFAICT.

Like I said, I am guessing....  But most of the countries and games you list came out -years- after D&D though.  While parallel development is possible (if delayed), it seems more likely to me that people around the world saw D&D, were inspired by it, and made their own take on things.  Supposedly, that's how Record of the Lodoss War came to be in Japan.    

But yes, some times licensing issues were -not- involved at all.

Quote from: AsenRG;948457In France, L'Appel de Cthulhu (that's CoC in French for you, not Trail of Chtulhu) has been published in the 80ies, too, with the RPGs not getting there until the end of the 70ies. D&D is only published in 1983, years after RPGs are already popular. CoC has achieved a huge following, much bigger market share than in the USA (or maybe already had it when D&D was published).

This one genuinely surprises me.  Then again, France was kind of a hipster nation before being a hipster was even cool.  ("We like Jerry Lewis -because- you don't.")

Quote from: Tristram Evans;948461If someone were to say, however, "no other restuarants exist besides MCDonalds", that claim would obviously be absurd, verging on insanity. And thats basically what you are proposing.

I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm saying they weren't (and likely aren't) relevant in terms of sales, plays, and larger cultural impact.

You can love your local Boris' Bulgarian Burgers all you want because they're just that damn delicious, but compared to McDonalds they are irrelevant by any objective measure you care to use.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;948461Secondly, White Wolf NEVER outsold D&D. Thats a gamer myth. The first RPG to outsell D&D was Pathfinder...another version of D&D.

Fair enough.  I was wrong.  I genuinely thought there were a few quarters where WW beat TSR, and I could find data to back it up, but I was apparently mistaken.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;948420Pretty much this.

Also, I'm curious as why we didn't get any Mage LARP rules until near the end of the oWoD's run but Werewolf got greenlit for LARP adaptations a year after Vampire did. You'd think Mage would've made for a better and more marketable experience for LARP than Werewolf would. While Vampire is obviously the best choice for WoD LARP for many reasons, I wonder why they went with adapting Werewolf before Mage. Mage was fairly popular in tabletop format and was the third game released, and probably would be better for LARP than Werewolf. Yet Mage didn't get LARP rules until around 2000 or 2001, while Vampire got LARP rules in 1993 and Werewolf in 1994.

Also, back in the 90s it was very much apparent that V:tM and W:tA were the company's best-loved children. Mage ended up being one of the big sellers, and the published support ended up mirroring the first two (as compared to Wraith and Changeling), but it was pretty clear that everything outside of Vamps and Wolves would receive attention only after those two.

Quote from: Snowman0147;948421You know I wish them the best of luck because they are doing one thing I like.  By hiring ZakS White Wolf pissed off the toxic Onyx Path freelancers slash rpg.net moderators.  We should be celebrating this.

Personally I don't care whether WoD has a resurgence or not, but if these guys burn their IP to the ground by alienating their fan base, and the only thing to come out of it is pissing off OP fans/freelancers, that's quite the pyrrhic victory. Also, why would we be celebrating pissing off these people? Why should we care about these people's opinions at all?

Quote from: Opaopajr;948446Wha? The SoCal scene had some of the better house dancers. Granted their scenes did not blend nearly as much as Northern California, so they were a bit specialized. SF Bay dancers were a heady eclectic of many, many styles and oftwn put their whole body into the mix. But that's because we didn't mind if people hopped around different scenes to groove & learn a new thing or two.

Oh, you must've been in the massives trance rooms, pogo-ing! Usually in those we had the NordiTrackers, whistlers, pogos, glo-stick novices, palau practioners in the back, light show giver (they gadfly the puddlers, esp. any rollin' women), true glowstick ninjas, headbangers, liquid dancers, turfers, two-steppers, tribal bellydancers (SF regional), etc.

You never know, you might've ran into me back in the day! I traveled to some SoCal shows. Though I rarely believe someone is hopeless in dance. I'd have to do a diagnostic to see if your rhythm and expression is hopeless.

This sounds straight out of a bit from Saturday Night Live where "Stefon" shows up on Weekend Update. "SoCal's newest club is WoD! It has everything! Glowstick ninjas, NordiTrackers, liquid dancers, turfers..."

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;948447By 1990 I'd been married to my second wife for three years.  I didn't need, or want, "sexytime around tabletop games."

I play RPGs to do things I CAN'T do in real life.

Agreed. I didn't need "sexytime" from tabletop games because I could go get it the same way that other functional adults (er, teen for me in 1990) could.

Quote from: san dee jota;948469Fair enough.  I was wrong.  I genuinely thought there were a few quarters where they beat WW, and I could find data to back it up, but I was apparently mistaken.

They probably had higher profits for a while - but yeah - D&D (or Pathfinder) has always been king of gross sales.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;948454

[video=youtube_share;OjksfpbHiZU]https://youtu.be/OjksfpbHiZU[/youtube]

It's not that hard. Remember, this was a club scene designed for white people.

P.S. Also do not search for 'Goth Dance' on YouTube.

We all know what a dancing vampire looks like:  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwO8smpOM7Q

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;948475They probably had higher profits for a while - but yeah - D&D (or Pathfinder) has always been king of gross sales.

Dont count on it. WW books tended to be priced higher than D&D ones. But sold fewer due to being higher priced. And at a few points WW books were just not selling. I was at one con and they were all but giving away some stuff because it wasnt selling and at another one got a softback for free as did a friend at another con. On the other hand the core books tended to move along relatively well but I suspect they overprinted even those.

They also sunk alot of cash into a couple of failed projects or ones that started ok and then crashed later. I should still have one of the prototype Werewolf minis for example. Like a couple of other publishers in the late 90s they also bled themselves out trying to cash in on the CCG craze.

And I still think its pathetically hilarious that WW was so destitute for ideas that they had to gank material from other peoples books.

Quote from: Omega;948479Dont count on it. WW books tended to be priced higher than D&D ones. But sold fewer due to being higher priced. And at a few points WW books were just not selling.

Right - their margins were higher.  Which means that their profit on each book was higher.

Considering how long WW lasted - it obviously was profitable at some points - and I know that TSR was having issues making a profit at all at some points in the 90's.

Quote from: Simlasa;948460The one time I went to a goth club in Baltimore... the 'dancing' I saw was more like strolling, guys on the dance floor doing this thing where they'd walk around each other, with attitude.

I went to a Goth club in Berlin called Sprockets... this is how they danced (*).

[video=youtube_share;QHZR9SA5pOg]https://youtu.be/QHZR9SA5pOg[/youtube]


As for this documentary. I say "Cool." It's a part of gaming history and worth a look. Just like I'd love to see a documentary about the Gygax-era (with some hot Gronan action!) and that era of gaming. People shouldn't get their hate on for the perspectives that the original WW crew had about their game, especially as channeled by the modern conception of what WoD has become.

I suspect a lot of people's distrust of the narrative of the video might also have to do with where/how they grew up when Vampire landed. Having been into that scene in Los Angeles backinnaday, my gaming and club-going were pretty segregated. There was a tiny bit of cross-pollination - but generally speaking my gaming friends were indeed "geeks", and my club going friends weren't. When Vampire landed it allowed me to pull in *many* of my club-going friends into gaming.

It's not like what people think of "club culture" is uniform across the entire nation. Hardly. What passes for "Goth" or "punk" in Tallahassee is not necessarily what passes as such in NYC or Chicago. Whatever one may think about WW, WoD, and what its mutated into, it brought people into gaming and sure - it fertilized the ground for a lot of shit-tards, but ultimately it's still worthy of note.

I don't give a crap which game is most popular. Whatever game I'm currently playing at my table is most popular.


*This is a big fucking lie. I've never been to Berlin. But I have seen Goths dance. It's sad. Really sad.

Quote from: tenbones;948493I went to a Goth club in Berlin called Sprockets... this is how they danced (*).

As for this documentary. I say "Cool." It's a part of gaming history and worth a look. Just like I'd love to see a documentary about the Gygax-era (with some hot Gronan action!) and that era of gaming. People shouldn't get their hate on for the perspectives that the original WW crew had about their game, especially as channeled by the modern conception of what WoD has become.

I suspect a lot of people's distrust of the narrative of the video might also have to do with where/how they grew up when Vampire landed. Having been into that scene in Los Angeles backinnaday, my gaming and club-going were pretty segregated. There was a tiny bit of cross-pollination - but generally speaking my gaming friends were indeed "geeks", and my club going friends weren't. When Vampire landed it allowed me to pull in *many* of my club-going friends into gaming.

It's not like what people think of "club culture" is uniform across the entire nation. Hardly. What passes for "Goth" or "punk" in Tallahassee is not necessarily what passes as such in NYC or Chicago. Whatever one may think about WW, WoD, and what its mutated into, it brought people into gaming and sure - it fertilized the ground for a lot of shit-tards, but ultimately it's still worthy of note.

I don't give a crap which game is most popular. Whatever game I'm currently playing at my table is most popular.


*This is a big fucking lie. I've never been to Berlin. But I have seen Goths dance. It's sad. Really sad.

The problem with the Vampire documentary is that everyone except maybe for Reinhagen is still actively selling and making money off the product.  So it's hard to believe it won't be a professionally designed marketing piece.  I don't know how legit LuckyDay is as an indie film studio, they seem kind of "markety".

I'll watch it, might be fun.

There's only one way for a true noncomformist goth to dance.

[video=youtube;iDcfZrAhXt0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDcfZrAhXt0[/youtube]

So, it was MORE mature to pretend to be a vampire than to pretend to be an elf?

I also would say that, long before WoD came around, you had characters, and stories, and relationships, and etc. They didn't reinvent the wheel. Just looks like they found a way to package angst and self-absorption into a nice dice mechanic.:-)

Quote from: tenbones;948493As for this documentary. I say "Cool." It's a part of gaming history and worth a look. Just like I'd love to see a documentary about the Gygax-era (with some hot Gronan action!) and that era of gaming. People shouldn't get their hate on for the perspectives that the original WW crew had about their game, especially as channeled by the modern conception of what WoD has become.

I don't "hate" in this project, it's just that I  have always thought vampires were lame since Anne Rice burst on the scene.  I feel the same way about zombies; I am so fucking OVER both of them I can't express it clearly enough.  And as a baby boomer the Goth scene never appealed to me, but it was never supposed to.

Note that 'I am not interested' is not the same as 'this is not worth doing.'  Green peppers and all that.

And I really hope "Dungeons and Dragons: A Documentary" eventually gets released.  Not only was I interviewed, but I did several "bumper" scenes... transitions from topic to topic... as well.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;948330As a springboard into juicy daydreams about ideal campaigns they might play or run. There's just something enticing about all those carefully intertwined bits of fluff, rules, and art, like coveted toys still fresh in their perfectly designed boxes, unsullied by the disappointments of actual play.

To back you up, I worked in an FLGS in the '90s. WoD hit right at the "D&D boom" kids were in early adulthood, either in college or just past it. While it certainly was never hard to be a gamer in college, a lot kids that age were trying on other social outlets. People that had just left college and entered the workforce often were out of touch with gaming circles.

Between these two groups, you had a lot of people that had a lingering interest in gaming, but didn't actually game. They also tended to have a fair amount of disposable income. All the metaplot stuff that going on in those days was perfect for those people. They could read pick up the monthly installments and get their newest dose of the metaplot.

I had a good number of customers that would drop by every payday, load up on their storybooks, then disappear from the gaming scene until the next paycheck. By the end of the '90s, these people had either actually started to game again or they had drifted away completely. That was when the serious pushback against metaplot began.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;948461well, here is why that's nonsense:

McDonalds is easily one of the most successful restaurant franchises in the world. To compare it to other franchises, its pretty far ahead of most of them, give or take. To take into account non-franchised restaurants, they are all "small fry" in comparison. If someone were to say, however, "no other restuarants exist besides MCDonalds", that claim would obviously be absurd, verging on insanity. And thats basically what you are proposing.

Back in the '80s, I used to hang out at my FLGS on delivery days and chat with help with the unpacking. If you broke down the orders, they easily got in more D&D than any other game, but if you added all the other games together, it broke down close to 50/50, sometimes with D&D ahead and sometimes with "other" ahead.

D&D was the giant gorilla, but there were an awful lot of other monkeys in the room.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;948474Personally I don't care whether WoD has a resurgence or not, but if these guys burn their IP to the ground by alienating their fan base, and the only thing to come out of it is pissing off OP fans/freelancers, that's quite the pyrrhic victory. Also, why would we be celebrating pissing off these people? Why should we care about these people's opinions at all?

If the Onyx Path people had their way we would nothing to play.  These are the same people that attacked RPGPundit, ZakS, and tried to remove games from One Book Shop.  They will do any thing to fuck us over.

Also White Wolf still has larpers and video games.  They just need to make Bloodlines 2 and they are golden.

Quote from: Snowman0147;948509They just need to make Bloodlines 2 and they are golden.

While it had a cult following - didn't Bloodlines kinda bomb?  I remember that the company that made it went bankrupt shortly after it came out.  (I mostly remember because of the article title's pun about them being staked.)

Frankly - it was okay and I enjoyed it as a teenager - but it had issues.

The Goth chicks I remember are a little closer to this:

[video=youtube;Qlh-VSBxcJs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qlh-VSBxcJs[/youtube]

Quote from: Baulderstone;948505To back you up, I worked in an FLGS in the '90s. WoD hit right at the "D&D boom" kids were in early adulthood, either in college or just past it. While it certainly was never hard to be a gamer in college, a lot kids that age were trying on other social outlets. People that had just left college and entered the workforce often were out of touch with gaming circles.

Between these two groups, you had a lot of people that had a lingering interest in gaming, but didn't actually game. They also tended to have a fair amount of disposable income. All the metaplot stuff that going on in those days was perfect for those people. They could read pick up the monthly installments and get their newest dose of the metaplot.

I had a good number of customers that would drop by every payday, load up on their storybooks, then disappear from the gaming scene until the next paycheck. By the end of the '90s, these people had either actually started to game again or they had drifted away completely. That was when the serious pushback against metaplot began.

That's synchs up with how I remember it.

Quote from: Snowman0147;948509If the Onyx Path people had their way we would nothing to play. These are the same people that attacked RPGPundit, ZakS, and tried to remove games from One Book Shop. They will do any thing to fuck us over.

These are the same people that attacked RPGPundit, ZakS,

Onyx Path, or some of TBP's mod staff?  I mean, there's overlap to be sure, but I wouldn't equate the two.

Quote from: Snowman0147;948509and tried to remove games from One Book Shop.

TBP: "Tokyo Black: Tournament of Rapists is rapey!"
Me:  "Yep, it's an RPG based on hentai.  What do you expect?"
TBP: "It should be pulled from distribution!"
Me: "You're advocating censorship?"
TBP: "It's an RPG that promotes rape, so yes!"
Me: "Have you read it?"
TBP: "I read the title, and that's enough!"  (seriously, OBS said like -two- people bought the thing before it was pulled as I recall, but everyone was feeding off of an echo-chamber effect)
Me: "What about Exalted Infernals?"
TBP: "Well, we -like- -that- book.  Despite the rape."
Me: "Don't forget the child rape.  You're giving it a pass too."
TBP: "Well, that book was published a long time ago, so nobody cares anymore." (seriously, this was the reasoning I was given.  Sad thing is, it seems to be the real reasoning used)

The main lesson I've learned about rape and TBP is this: if your production values are good enough (e.g. you have Melissa Uran do the pictures of rape, as in Scroll of Swallowed Darkness), and you -limit- your raping to an acceptable amount (there's only like two or three pics of rape in SoSD), and your developer isn't an active jerk (I'm pretty sure the dev at the time didn't say much of -anything- on the forums), then you get a pass.  And remember, Scroll was meant to be a somewhat silly book... with rape.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;948503I don't "hate" in this project, it's just that I  have always thought vampires were lame since Anne Rice burst on the scene.  I feel the same way about zombies; I am so fucking OVER both of them I can't express it clearly enough.  And as a baby boomer the Goth scene never appealed to me, but it was never supposed to.

Note that 'I am not interested' is not the same as 'this is not worth doing.'  Green peppers and all that.

And I really hope "Dungeons and Dragons: A Documentary" eventually gets released.  Not only was I interviewed, but I did several "bumper" scenes... transitions from topic to topic... as well.

You're probably only a few years older than me. I agree with the over-saturation of Vampires/Zombies/etc. I actually am a fan of Anne Rice, she's a good writer. While Dracula was never really portrayed as he was in the book, Bela Lugosi for his time might have struck the bearing of aristocratic, it never flew for me, even as a kid. I'll give Oldman a better grade. What Rice gets credit for, for me, is her portrayal of the vampire-as-character. It was original.

The *moment* I picked up Vampire 1e, I thought "Oh wow! This is an Anne Rice RPG." It's so clearly pulling from her books that I kinda laugh at their screeching over Underworld - which to me obviously is pulling from WoD. How *they* didn't get sued by Anne Rice is kinda amazing to me. At any rate - Anne Rice, while not the first big vampire-fiction writer, outside of Brian Lumley I don't know of anyone I'd separate out from the field as being GOOD at writing Vampire Fiction. It's been all downhill since (including some of Rice's latter stuff). I've long divorced myself from WW's catalog for many reason, but I'll give them credit where it's due. Other games may have done it better before/after, but WW's games are where I started in that genre like a lot of other people. I don't give them *any* credit for my social life, heh, but I do give them credit for making a couple of bridges between my hobbies.

I hope the D&D documentary lands too. I think, despite it's all "silly elf-games", it's pretty important to me when I consider it. I find that GMing and gaming are like gravity to me. From the moment I flipped my first chit in D&D (no dice for me back then!) - it always been there. It's been so persistent that its unconscious; it's literally changed the trajectory of my life in so many countless ways that when I step back from it, I find it personally profound. I wouldn't be the person I am today without it. So yeah - it's silly elf-games. But for me, I wanna see it. Same with the WW doc.

Quote from: cranebump;948498So, it was MORE mature to pretend to be a vampire than to pretend to be an elf?

I also would say that, long before WoD came around, you had characters, and stories, and relationships, and etc. They didn't reinvent the wheel. Just looks like they found a way to package angst and self-absorption into a nice dice mechanic.:-)

I know you're being partially sarcastic, but it reminds me of something I noticed about my gaming post-Vampire. So when Vampire dropped, the themes and shit I dealt with my fantasy games were classically "heroic", "swashbuckling" with some warfare and blood-n-guts. I didn't take on things like pathos or assumptions that the PC's were, in fact, monsters. Even when I let them orcs, ogres, minotaurs etc. They got treated like shit in appropriate places.

But when Vampire came out, I distinctly remember pulling out all the stops on the conceit of being a blood-sucking addicted undead in the context of living in LA and going pretty no-holds barred in terms of content. I played it straight-up. Sure they had super-powers, sure they looked cool, but they had social issues *because* of their condition and character background that played fully. And ultimately, my Vampire games were vastly closer to 'Near Dark' meets 'Queen of the Damned'  than 'Twilight' (which itself has obvious WoD concepts it ripped off). My fantasy games after playing Vampire and Werewolf pretty heavily, changed. While sure I did the heroic thing, but I think Vampire and the way I ran it, taught my players to dig a little deeper. It made me a better GM for taking the bits in WoD that are good and using those elements for general use. My D&D (and other RPGs) were *better* because of it. I realize that a lot of GM's don't care about this kinda shit, but I really like it when my players invest in their characters. I do run "silly elf-games." But I run "silly elf-games for adults".

In hindsight I think you're right about your comment about "packaging angst", but perhaps not in the way you meant.

I suspect for my group I played with at the time, outside of Cyberpunk 2020 (which we also played heavily around this time) it became an outlet for certain angst they probably didn't even realize they had. I had Mexican and black players in my group that allowed me to directly use issues within those cultures in Los Angeles directly as material for my game. Women in my group that got to play in a modern context where they didn't feel they were being judged as "female " per se, in the setting (well not always - but they certainly rose to the challenge of it). A little angst has gaming value if you're running "mature" games, and that's what I do. I'm always trying to leverage whatever gets people into the mood of the campaign. I just don't define the campaign by those things.

I draw the line where you try to create mechanics to legitimize that social angst as something endemic to the game itself for no reason. Or create pandering narratives for their own sake (which is why I won't give a nickel to Onyx Path).

Chelsea Quinn Yarbro had been writing about vampires since the late 1970s. Her Saint-Germain series was never as big as Anne Rice's stuff, but it was pretty much in the same vein (pun intended).

And Fred Saberhagen wrote a number of books with Dracula as the protagonist, starting in 1975.

Though with that said, I have to suspect it was really Dark Shadows (the soap opera) that made the vampire what it was

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;948503I don't "hate" in this project, it's just that I  have always thought vampires were lame since Anne Rice burst on the scene.  I feel the same way about zombies; I am so fucking OVER both of them I can't express it clearly enough.

I can deal with stray zombies here and there in an RPG, but I never got the obsession with zombie apocalypse a lot of gamer went through about ten years ago. I've ended up in a couple of games with surprise zombie outbreaks. The effective result was that every potentially interesting NPC in the game just became a mindless bag of hit points.

I get why zombies have been so popular in video games. Dumb monsters that just come right at you. That's some easy AI to develop. In TTRPG, part of the appeal is that when you interact with NPCs, they are being run by an actual human being who can react to you. I know that in your average campaign, you generally encounter a fair number of dumb monster types. I'm fine with that. It's just boring when they become the default encounter for a whole campaign.

Said part is San is that ToR was about heroes sneaking into the horrible tournament to end it forever.  As in you the hero see something evil and choose to stop said evil.  It's only crime is having a bad title.

Quote from: JeremyR;948534Chelsea Quinn Yarbro had been writing about vampires since the late 1970s. Her Saint-Germain series was never as big as Anne Rice's stuff, but it was pretty much in the same vein (pun intended).

I've read Yarbro's stuff. It's ehhh. She landed around the same time as Rice (as I recall). But her style simply wasn't as good. I'm willing to believe that she definitely added to the modern vampire meme, and mutually benefited from Rice's success.

Quote from: JeremyR;948534And Fred Saberhagen wrote a number of books with Dracula as the protagonist, starting in 1975.

Though with that said, I have to suspect it was really Dark Shadows (the soap opera) that made the vampire what it was

I love Saberhagen. But he'll never be known for writing Vampire-fiction for obvious reasons. He eclipsed himself in that regard with his other work. And c'mon - Dracula.

Interesting call on Dark Shadows. I'll suspect along with you - that Dark Shadows may not be given the full credit of being the iconic modern-vampire concept realized - I'm willing to believe it "primed the pump" for Rice and laid down the foundation for the fanbase that would come later.

Quote from: san dee jota;948469I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm saying they weren't (and likely aren't) relevant in terms of sales, plays, and larger cultural impact.

You don't think Call of Cthulhu had a cultural impact? The game that took Lovecraft from an obscure pulp writer and turned Cthulhu into a household word? Warhammer redefined how people view orcs in a manner that they've standardized the look and manner of greenskinned orcs for every videogame over the last 20 year? The concept of "Karma points" from Marvel superheroes has been picked up by innumerable pop culture media, and how about this Rolling Stone article about how WEG's Star Wars rpg brought the franchise back from the dead (http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/1987-roleplaying-game-brought-star-wars-back-from-the-dead-w457311)?

Quote from: Baulderstone;948535I can deal with stray zombies here and there in an RPG, but I never got the obsession with zombie apocalypse a lot of gamer went through about ten years ago. I've ended up in a couple of games with surprise zombie outbreaks. The effective result was that every potentially interesting NPC in the game just became a mindless bag of hit points.

I get why zombies have been so popular in video games. Dumb monsters that just come right at you. That's some easy AI to develop. In TTRPG, part of the appeal is that when you interact with NPCs, they are being run by an actual human being who can react to you. I know that in your average campaign, you generally encounter a fair number of dumb monster types. I'm fine with that. It's just boring when they become the default encounter for a whole campaign.

In the enjoyable zombie horror campaigns I've been in (and hopefully ran) the zombies weren't the primary threat at least not after the initial outbreak. It was the humans, doing what humans do: trying to survive, even prosper. Eventually the zombies become something like an environmental hazard more rather than a primary obstacle. Its the living that are your worst enemies (or best allies). On a role playing level,  you can use zombies to generate allot of horror, pathos and even pity. They're a great combination of victim and monsters with the constant possibility that the PCs could become just like them. In some setting almost inevitably will. I've gotten some great rp out of those aspects.

Quote from: tenbones;948533In hindsight I think you're right about your comment about "packaging angst", but perhaps not in the way you meant.

Well, you shoot enough darts, one of them is bound to hit the outer ring.:-)

To be perfectly honest, the whole thing was an impossible sell to me, so I appreciate your ground floor experience. For myself, I read Lestat and Interview, liked them, but never found anything about the characters to be particularly alluring, from an RP perspective. It's a cursed life. Then you get the romanticization of the whole thing, and, well, just couldn't dig it.

But, man, were there some fans in my gaming group, the biggest one also being a Rifts fanatic, and a major, major fan of Image comics when they kicked up. I can't say how any of those things might be related, but, as someone who passed on all of them, my guess is, "This just isn't my moment."

*Giggles.  Laughs.*  Wait, they're serious???  *Dies of laughter.*

Quote from: Doc Sammy;948420Yet Mage didn't get LARP rules until around 2000 or 2001, while Vampire got LARP rules in 1993 and Werewolf in 1994.

I never saw the Mage LARP rules. We were barely using the V:tM rules. Almost everything we did was homebrew with ideas stolen back and forth from other LARPs we were involved with.

Quote from: Snowman0147;948421You know I wish them the best of luck because they are doing one thing I like.  By hiring ZakS White Wolf pissed off the toxic Onyx Path freelancers slash rpg.net moderators.  We should be celebrating this.

I'm celebrating the Zak S doing cool shit part. Regardless of his online persona, Zak creates interesting products.

Quote from: Opaopajr;948446Wha? The SoCal scene had some of the better house dancers.

LA is huge for the music video industry (and MTV existed back then) so its the mecca for great dancers, wannabes and hopefuls. However, those people use clubs as auditions and networking, and they spend their time in high end clubs known to be (or rumored to be) frequented by casting directors, producers and music talent. I dated a UCLA dance major back then and I saw a bit of that "club auditioning" scene. In LA, the battle to be seen is the fight to be cast.

Quote from: Opaopajr;948446Oh, you must've been in the massives trance rooms, pogo-ing!

When I said underground raves, I'm talking the illegal DIY events that popped up in abandoned warehouses around the city and you had to get secret directions from skeevy people in skeevy places and the party lasted until the cops showed up and cut the music. Of course, you'd see rich kids slumming it, but most people were working class or in college too poor to afford the real clubs.  So yeah, massive trance rooms with pogo clowns, glow stickers, the parade of girls with pacifiers and dancers not yet ready for the pro-clubs.

When the Oakland tragedy happened, my friend's teens asked "who would be so stupid as to go those places?"...and I got to tell them.

Quote from: Opaopajr;948446true glowstick ninjas,

I so envied them!!

Quote from: Opaopajr;948446You never know, you might've ran into me back in the day!

You and I've definitely crossed paths at the Bay Area cons.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;948447I didn't need, or want, "sexytime around tabletop games." I play RPGs to do things I CAN'T do in real life.

Hmm....maybe this is why storygamers want sex in RPGs?

Quote from: S'mon;948452Clearly what we need is a campaign for Ethics in RP-Gamer Journalism...

We could call it PizzaGate!!

Let's google to see if the name's taken...

Quote from: Willie the Duck;948474This sounds straight out of a bit from Saturday Night Live where "Stefon" shows up on Weekend Update. "SoCal's newest club is WoD! It has everything! Glowstick ninjas, NordiTrackers, liquid dancers, turfers..."

That's why Stefon was so hysterical. He's an exaggerated version of "that club friend" who exists in most big cities.

Quote from: tenbones;948493I don't give a crap which game is most popular. Whatever game I'm currently playing at my table is most popular.

Hell yeah!!

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;948414Hair metal hasn't made its return yet.

Steel Panther  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfB7vF7nCdA&list=PLdZ8tAOS7qHpt0jX6ESP3M-i2JZgSLfhO)would disagree! (NSFW!)

In today's music micro-niche world, it's amazing how many niches are doing well with fandoms.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;948539You don't think Call of Cthulhu had a cultural impact? The game that took Lovecraft from an obscure pulp writer and turned Cthulhu into a household word? Warhammer redefined how people view orcs in a manner that they've standardized the look and manner of greenskinned orcs for every videogame over the last 20 year? The concept of "Karma points" from Marvel superheroes has been picked up by innumerable pop culture media, and how about this Rolling Stone article about how WEG's Star Wars rpg brought the franchise back from the dead (http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/1987-roleplaying-game-brought-star-wars-back-from-the-dead-w457311)?

Cthulhu isn't a household word, really. It's a heavily referenced word used in general geekdom and horror fans. Most people don't know who Lovecraft is.

To be honest, anyway, there seems to be too much desperation here in trying to downgrade the impact White Wolf games had in the 90s. My friend who works in the retail wing of the hobby (from time immemorable) said that basically there have been only a few overriding trends in the hobby - AD&D in the 80s, Vampire in the 90s and D20/D&D from then on again.

You could argue the merits of Call of Cthulhu, Warhammer, WEG Star Wars and Marvel, and they are all excellent, influential games in their own right, but they didn't flip the hobby on it's head in quite the same way as Vampire did at the time. And yes, I do think LARPs has quite a lot to do with that too.

Quote from: tenbones;948531How *they* didn't get sued by Anne Rice is kinda amazing to me. At any rate - Anne Rice, while not the first big vampire-fiction writer, outside of Brian Lumley I don't know of anyone I'd separate out from the field as being GOOD at writing Vampire Fiction. It's been all downhill since (including some of Rice's latter stuff).

Lucius Shepard, Michael Talbot, George R. Martin, Suzy Charnas and Barbara Hambly all wrote some good to excellent vampire fiction in the 80s. The Light at the End by Skipp and Spector is also a terrifically fun pulpy vampire novel that would make a great midnight movie. I also assume Dan Simmons' vampire novels are also good as everything else I've read from him in the horror genre has been excellent.

Those later Rice novels are often painfully bad, particularly the dialogue.

Quote from: Spinachcat;948555Hmm....maybe this is why storygamers want sex in RPGs?

Are you being serious here? It reads like a cheap shot "Storygamers (whatever the fuck they are) can't get laid, hurr hurr."

Isn't that the same kind of shit that was leveled at gamers period?

Hmm.

In the late 70s TSR made the conscious decision to market to young teenagers (confirmed by Jim Ward at Garycon a couple of years ago.)

If you were 13 in 1980, you were 25 in 1992.  I wonder if the "nerd D&D players" were the "cool Vampire players" younger selves.

No idea, just an interesting notion.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;948563Cthulhu isn't a household word, really. It's a heavily referenced word used in general geekdom and horror fans. Most people don't know who Lovecraft is.

I think you're wrong on that. Cthulhu is referenced on everything from South Park to Saturday Morning Cartoons to national sitcoms. Cthulhu-themed board games are national bestsellers. Lovecraft has been inducted into the National American Writers Hall of Fame. I really doubt you'll be able to find anyone under the age of 40 who hasn't heard of him in some way. And Vampire's influence is not even close to that, even at its peak.

QuoteTo be honest, anyway, there seems to be too much desperation here in trying to downgrade the impact White Wolf games had in the 90s. My friend who works in the retail wing of the hobby (from time immemorable) said that basically there have been only a few overriding trends in the hobby - AD&D in the 80s, Vampire in the 90s and D20/D&D from then on again. You could argue the merits of Call of Cthulhu, Warhammer, WEG Star Wars and Marvel, and they are all excellent, influential games in their own right, but they didn't flip the hobby on it's head in quite the same way as Vampire did at the time. And yes, I do think LARPs has quite a lot to do with that too.

That's not the point at all. The claim made was that there was no RPGs besides D&D before Vampire, and that RPGs involved no characterization or anything beyond a formulaic dungeoncrawl before Vampire "revolutionized" the hobby. That's all utter pretentious nonsense, no matter how much weight you choose to put on Vampire's pop culture influence. And as someone who was heavily into the roleplaying culture of the 90s, I really didn't see Vampire "flipping the hobby on its head". It was popular, it found an audience outside of the typical rpg audience up to that point, but it didnt make RPGs mainstream (when RPGs did enter the public consciousness it was via D&D).

Quote from: Tristram Evans;948574I think you're wrong on that. Cthulhu is referenced on everything from South Park to Saturday Morning Cartoons to national sitcoms. Cthulhu-themed board games are national bestsellers. Lovecraft has been inducted into the National American Writers Hall of Fame. I really doubt you'll be able to find anyone under the age of 40 who hasn't heard of him in some way. And Vampire's influence is not even close to that, even at its peak.

I'm a teacher. I'll ask if anybody knows who Lovecraft or Cthulhu are at school. I'll bet, right now, that none of the students will have heard of them.

QuoteThat's not the point at all. The claim made was that there was no RPGs besides D&D before Vampire, and that RPGs involved no characterization or anything beyond a formulaic dungeoncrawl before Vampire "revolutionized" the hobby.

I think you are exaggerating that claim here. I'll go and look at the trailer again, but I don't think they literally say that no RPGs were written other than D&D before Vampire, do they? It's a cultural shift they are referring to.

To me, Vampire and White Wolf did represent a sea change in gaming in the 90s. My best analogy is to Nirvana and Grunge rock which came into prominence about the same time. It wasn't so much that Nirvana had invented a new type of music or did things that nobody had done before. It was simply that they represented a shift in the taste of what people were looking for, and as such they brought the alternative into the mainstream (that being D&D in the RPG hobby, previously). And, like White Wolf, they were creative and original in a seminal way because of that. (If you want to extend the analogy further, I'd argue that Call of Cthulhu was a bit like The Smiths....)

White Wolf were also not too proud to promote other games too. One of the biggest promoters of Amber Diceless or Kult and other games came from White Wolf Magazine, for example. As I said earlier on, I think a few critics are being a bit precious about this documentary. In my view, White Wolf is right to want to celebrate their own history - just as other game companies should too. No offence intended.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;948572Hmm.

In the late 70s TSR made the conscious decision to market to young teenagers (confirmed by Jim Ward at Garycon a couple of years ago.)

If you were 13 in 1980, you were 25 in 1992.  I wonder if the "nerd D&D players" were the "cool Vampire players" younger selves.

No idea, just an interesting notion.

I actually agree with this. If the overriding market for D&D in the 70s and 80s were kids, and they grow into adolescence - then Vampire et al in the 1990s is the perfect game and time for them.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;948582I'm a teacher. I'll ask if anybody knows who Lovecraft or Cthulhu are at school. I'll bet, right now, that none of the students will have heard of them.

I can add the following data point: recently, I had reason to mention Lovecraft to some of my least nerdy friends, the ones who aren't permanently glued to the Internet like the others (and like me, for that matter. :o ). They had absolutely no clue who he was.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;948582I'm a teacher. I'll ask if anybody knows who Lovecraft or Cthulhu are at school. I'll bet, right now, that none of the students will have heard of them.

In the interest of hypothesis, make sure you ask them about Vampire: The Masquerade and Mark Rein*something as well ;)

Hmm. I don't know whether it was different in the UK compared to elsewhere but Vampire players were mostly indistinguishable from other nerdy RPGers. If they were goths they fell into the sad goth category rather than the cool goth category. In fact, the only person I know that fits that documentary's stereotype thought Vampire was pretentious crap. Maybe it was different for LARP as I never had any involvement in that. Anyway, this document paints a picture of Vampire fandom that I don't recognise.

As for the RPG.net outrage, I was very suspicious of the motivations behind the Zak S furore. I had my suspicions that a large part of the outrage from the Onyx Path freelancers and their supporters was that some freelancer outside their circle was being used, perhaps because they were worried they wouldn't get work on the new Vampire edition. It seemed that, despite the fact that Zak S is an online asshole, they wanted to prove they could have done a better job. I see that general outrage toward WW now perpetuated into RPG.net's discussion of this documentary.

I can't say I've been impressed by the marketing spiel from White Wolf. Seems like a return to the pretentiousness of White Wolf at its height. Perhaps, we're going to get Player's Guides with pretentious, patronising essays on how to role play like we did in the 90s. Still, we haven't seen the final product yet so maybe it will be better than expected.

As for Onyx Path, I haven't been that impressed. The nostalgia books have been OK, but the new material has ranged from awful (Beast) to mediocre. Very much like Red Brick's tenure with Earthdawn.

So, it may well be a case of "a plague on both your houses" for me.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;948597In the interest of hypothesis, make sure you ask them about Vampire: The Masquerade and Mark Rein*something as well ;)

I will.

But for the point of contrast, most students at school will recognise "that D&D shit" easily enough. When I was at University, other non-gaming students did in fact recognise "that Vampire shit" too.

I don't know who's worse, Onyx Path or the new White Wolf?

Both are plagued by pretentious Goths, but Onyx Path has SJW's in addition to Goths, so normally I'd say Onyx Path. But Martin Ericsson is an insufferable and pretentious asshole of unprecedented magnitude so it's a toss-up in my opinion.

The thing is that Goth is dead (and we should rejoice in the fact that it is finally dead) and trying to pander to the same toxic and pretentious Goth hivemind fanbase is just going to end up in disaster. This applies to both White Wolf and Onyx Path.

Normally, I would support White Wolf just to spite Onyx Path, but considering the fact that Martin Ericsson is a scumbag and the new White Wolf wants to recognize and resume the god-awful Revised Edition metaplot (after V20 took a more sensible metaplot-neutral stance), I say fuck 'em both. A plague on both their houses!

TL;DR Punk Rock sucks. Fuck the Goth Subculture!

Quote from: TrippyHippy;948582I'm a teacher. I'll ask if anybody knows who Lovecraft or Cthulhu are at school. I'll bet, right now, that none of the students will have heard of them.

Funny as pretty much everyone I know locally knows of Lovecraft or has had at least some small exposure to something based on his works ranging from the numerous movies, or the RPG, or the Board game, or the even more numerous one off refferences, or the even more numerous "inspired by", and so on.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;948539You don't think Call of Cthulhu had a cultural impact? The game that took Lovecraft from an obscure pulp writer and turned Cthulhu into a household word? Warhammer redefined how people view orcs in a manner that they've standardized the look and manner of greenskinned orcs for every videogame over the last 20 year? The concept of "Karma points" from Marvel superheroes has been picked up by innumerable pop culture media, and how about this Rolling Stone article about how WEG's Star Wars rpg brought the franchise back from the dead (http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/1987-roleplaying-game-brought-star-wars-back-from-the-dead-w457311)?

Let me break it down for you:

*) Call of Cthulhu was based on a not unknown license.  To say the popularity of the mythos stems from the TTRPG and not the stories (or the public domain status of HPL's works), is absurd.  Especially considering sales and plays of D&D outstripped it.
*) Warhammer FRP was based on the pre-existing miniature game, which created the look for orcs.  The Warcraft game (and subsequently, World of Warcraft) then popularized the style even further, after it dropped/lost the Warhammer license.  And again, sales and plays of D&D outstripped those of WFRP.
*) Karma points in popular culture stems from a fairly obscure mechanic in Marvel Superheroic Roleplaying?  Do you have -anything- to back that opinion up?  
*) Star Wars is an interesting exception, I admit.  The continuity checker for the various lines and media, meant that sourcebooks for the RPG had to line up with comics and novels and vise-versa.  Without that continuity checker, and the expanded universe of which the RPG was a part of, the RPG wouldn't amount to squat.  To say the RPG resurrected the line is hyperbolic however, given that most people site the sales of comics, novels, and advances in technology (plus a painful divorce settlement payout) as motivations for Lucas' to make more films.  But, again, sales and plays of D&D outstripped those of the Star Wars RPG.  (and now the old canon is no longer canon, which is kind of a shame)

Ultimately though, my counter point could best be summed up as what I said from the start: compared to D&D in the 80's, all the other RPGs out there didn't really matter.  Star Wars is the only real counterpoint you have, but even you can't argue the RPG matched... you guessed it... the sales and plays of D&D.  And I know I keep beating on that dead horse, but that dead horse is about as close to an objective measure as there can be.

Another way to put it: we never told non-gamers "we're playing this game, it's like the Star Wars RPG", but instead we said "we're playing this game, it's like Dungeons & Dragons."

Enough bickering over Call of Cthulhu and Star Wars, this kind of arguing isn't germane to the conversation.

Let's focus on the topic at hand, which is World of Darkness and how the pretentious Goths single-handedly ruined a once great RPG franchise.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;948612Enough bickering over Call of Cthulhu and Star Wars, this kind of arguing isn't germane to the conversation.

Let's focus on the topic at hand, which is World of Darkness and how the pretentious Goths single-handedly ruined a once great RPG franchise.

"But someone on the internet is -wrong-!"

Quote from: Doc Sammy;948606I don't know who's worse, Onyx Path or the new White Wolf?

Both are plagued by pretentious Goths, but Onyx Path has SJW's in addition to Goths, so normally I'd say Onyx Path. But Martin Ericsson is an insufferable and pretentious asshole of unprecedented magnitude so it's a toss-up in my opinion.

The thing is that Goth is dead (and we should rejoice in the fact that it is finally dead) and trying to pander to the same toxic and pretentious Goth hivemind fanbase is just going to end up in disaster. This applies to both White Wolf and Onyx Path.

Normally, I would support White Wolf just to spite Onyx Path, but considering the fact that Martin Ericsson is a scumbag and the new White Wolf wants to recognize and resume the god-awful Revised Edition metaplot (after V20 took a more sensible metaplot-neutral stance), I say fuck 'em both. A plague on both their houses!

TL;DR Punk Rock sucks. Fuck the Goth Subculture!

I thought I'd made the point before, but looking back, I didn't do a good job. It isn't a zero-sum game or a sports match where one side wins and the other loses. Both Onyx Path and New White Wolf can flourish, or likewise both can wither and die/burn to the ground. Other than as a side-"fuck you" to OP, the two are only nominally related. If Ericsson and Zak S and a fan-alienating documentary/controversy-based-marketing-campaign are good for this project, then good for them. If it sinks the WoD intellectual property, then that's bad for them.

I don't really know Ericsson or Zak S. From what I read on that linked TBP thread, Zak S is something of a SJW that even other SJWs don't like, and who whips his superfans into harassment campaigns against those he feels has slighted him (feel free to correct either my interpretation of what was said or whether what was said is accurate). I'm pretty bored with the whole SJW/anti-SJW back-and-forth, but even I'll take a stand and say that harassment campaigns are bad. So (contingent on those accusations being real) I for one am not going to be rooting for one jerk, simply because it might piss off another group of jerks. Gaming culture has too much infighting and fan purity tests/loyalty oaths imbedded in its' culture as it is. I don't see a let-both-sides-burn strategy to be beneficial to anyone.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;948616I thought I'd made the point before, but looking back, I didn't do a good job. It isn't a zero-sum game or a sports match where one side wins and the other loses. Both Onyx Path and New White Wolf can flourish, or likewise both can wither and die/burn to the ground.

You'd think that, and you might be right, but that's not the way businesses think (and subsequently work).

Case in point: Games Workshop and Fantasy Flight Games.  FFG was making GW some degree of money through card, board, and TTRP games using the GW licenses (including things like Talisman and Fury of Dracula, besides all the Warhammer stuff).  It's not clear exactly -why- they parted ways, but ultimately FFG no longer had the license.

Case #2: Marvel Heroic Roleplaying.  One day MWP realized the licensing wasn't worth what Marvel wanted (likely after Marvel upped either demands or fees or both), and now neither of them have money from the TTRPG (and supposedly MWP had a stockpile full of books they couldn't sell, and are likely pulped by now).  

What does this have to do with OP and nWW?  

It's not hard to imagine that nWW looks over and sees OP as competition, and decides "I'll tell Paradox that if we killed them off, we could get all their sales!"  Or OP looks at nWW and thinks "I'm done negotiating with these guys because they want too much money and control!"  

Quote from: Willie the Duck;948616Other than as a side-"fuck you" to OP, the two are only nominally related.

This is the one thing that might save OP's licensing of the various nWW lines.  If Paradox genuinely doesn't favor one over the other, it's very possible the licensing deals with OP make them more profit than their support of nWW.  Paradox may decide to keep the licenses afloat ("you want to regularly give me money to do all the work with these ideas I bought off someone else?  Okay!") and even kill nWW ("hey, OP makes us money.  What have -you- done for me lately?").  

On the flipside, Paradox could also decide "we -really- think nWW has a point, and we need to kill the competition by cutting these licenses to OP".  Heck, Paradox might do it because their astrologer told them to.  Logic and profit don't always drive business decisions after all.

Quote from: san dee jota;948611Let me break it down for you:

*) Call of Cthulhu was based on a not unknown license.  To say the popularity of the mythos stems from the TTRPG and not the stories (or the public domain status of HPL's works), is absurd.  Especially considering sales and plays of D&D outstripped it.

Lovecraft's stories were obscure, it was most definitely the rpg that popularized them in geek culture outside of an incredibly small niche of pulp enthusiasts before that point.

QuoteWarhammer FRP was based on the pre-existing miniature game, which created the look for orcs.

I'm well aware of where warhammer originated. I'm also aware that the miniature wargame in its third edition, the one that established the world, was not only written in tandem with the RPG (with supplements written to be utilized by both), but also that the wargame was specifically designed as a cross between an rpg and battle game.

Quote*) Karma points in popular culture stems from a fairly obscure mechanic in Marvel Superheroic Roleplaying? Do you have -anything- to back that opinion up?

Are you proposing an alternate origin for them? Or saying you are unaware of the term's use in pop culture?

QuoteUltimately though, my counter point could best be summed up

Ultimately the only point you have is that D&D was the best-selling RPG. Which I've never said it wasn't. But to say it was the only RPG is a falsehood. That you think other RPGs "didn't matter" is a personal PoV that doesn't actually mean anything, and isn't an "argument".

Quote from: Doc Sammy;948612Enough bickering over Call of Cthulhu and Star Wars, this kind of arguing isn't germane to the conversation.

Let's focus on the topic at hand, which is World of Darkness and how the pretentious Goths single-handedly ruined a once great RPG franchise.

Thats not the topic at hand. Thats your silly personal vendetta that no one cares about.

I definitely think that WoD shook things up a lot and it challenged D&D in ways other games really hadn't, but there were definitely other RPGs being played by a lot of gamers at the time (sure half or more of the stuff at the local game store was D&D, but there was usually a bunch of other games as well and plenty of people were playing them). D&D was the most instantly recognizable, it was synonymous with RPGs themselves, but I remember playing plenty of Choasium and ICE games. We had Star Wars, TORG, not to mention GURPS. These were widely played, both by dedicated fans who preferred them to D&D and by D&D fans as well. My experience gaming is that in a typical group of five players, as many as two to three would also be running campaigns at the same time as well (usually from the same group of core players)----and you'd often have that guy who ran the occasional one shot or mini-campaign. We had one GM who ran GURPS pretty exclusively. We also had someone who loved West End stuff, and one of them would also run odd games from time to time (for example I remember playing the RPG version of the Dark Sword trilogy). One shots of Cthulu were quite standard.

The big thing that Vampire did was allow you to play the monster. That was the big core conceit that got people excited. It was also presented in a way that didn't seem to focus as much on the mechanical stuff. And it tapped into the zeitgeist on multiple fronts (horror was popular, vampires in particular were popular, grunge was gaining and indie rock were gaining traction with a growing youth subculture around them, etc). It came about at a time when sympathetic villains were a big thing, where there were several vampire novel lines that told things from the monster's perspective.

I haven't even looked at White Wolf or anything White Wolf related since the 90's. Have they kept up with the times? The goth subculture is pretty anemic right now, at least in the U.S. I would think a new version would somehow combine the aesthetics of Twilight, Harry Potter, Steampunk, Cyberpunk, and post-industrial zombie shit. If they're not keeping up, they should just throw in the towel and make room for the young'uns. I remember a few years ago I played a demo of Unhallowed Metropolis at a convention. That's the type of thing I'm talking about.

The 90's were really the time that D&D mattered the least up to that point in it's lifetime.  TSR's financial problems and mismanagement by Blumes and Williams coincided with the creation of Vampire/WoD, Shadowrun (and its 50plus some novels), Deadlands (which actually climbed up to 2 or 3 in RPG sales during that decade), Legend of the Five Rings (and its cardgames), etc...

Quote from: TrippyHippy;948603I will.

Show them an image of Cthulhu or an ad for one of those Cthulhu "Why settle for the lesser evil?" election posters/shirts/buttons.

The use of Karma Points in pop culture is new to me but I don't have my finger on the pulse of the popular spirit. Reference to karma sure but not in a sense that seems tied to Marvel FASERIP mechanics.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;948606I don't know who's worse, Onyx Path or the new White Wolf?

Both are plagued by pretentious Goths, but Onyx Path has SJW's in addition to Goths, so normally I'd say Onyx Path. But Martin Ericsson is an insufferable and pretentious asshole of unprecedented magnitude so it's a toss-up in my opinion.

The thing is that Goth is dead (and we should rejoice in the fact that it is finally dead) and trying to pander to the same toxic and pretentious Goth hivemind fanbase is just going to end up in disaster. This applies to both White Wolf and Onyx Path.

Normally, I would support White Wolf just to spite Onyx Path, but considering the fact that Martin Ericsson is a scumbag and the new White Wolf wants to recognize and resume the god-awful Revised Edition metaplot (after V20 took a more sensible metaplot-neutral stance), I say fuck 'em both. A plague on both their houses!

TL;DR Punk Rock sucks. Fuck the Goth Subculture!

Serious question: Did I miss something? What about Martin Ericcson is bad for Vampire? Did I miss some announcement of intent? Why is he a scumbag? I don't know anything about him.

Less serious: what does Punk Rock and Goth subculture have to do with Vampire? Most of the time when I played these things had *zero* to do with my games other than PCs/NPC's that might be musicians doing Punk, or have a herd among dumbass goths pretending to be /swoon  vampires that want to share blood. Other than that - the whole Goth thing is overblown.

Quote from: san dee jota;948469Like I said, I am guessing....  But most of the countries and games you list came out -years- after D&D though.

All of them came years after OD&D, that's for sure, but that's when "the RPG scene" in those countries truly started. It simply took time for any games to cross the oceans.

QuoteWhile parallel development is possible (if delayed), it seems more likely to me that people around the world saw D&D, were inspired by it, and made their own take on things.  Supposedly, that's how Record of the Lodoss War came to be in Japan.

In Japan, maybe.
In my country, which is the only one I can really talk about to a degree, I'm pretty sure Shadowrun, Marvel Superheroes and D&D arrived at the same time...I was there for when an old box of Marvel Superheroes was bought by the guy I was sharing my desk with at school. (However, he brought it to his home city, so I never got to play).
Then we learned that some writers of "strats" (boardgame/RPG hybrids that grew out of gamebooks and were several orders of magnitude more populars here than D&D in the 90ies and 2000s) were playing Shadowrun. They mentioned it in the gamebook magazine that was being published at the time, and also said they've grown bored with it, that's how we know:p.

Also, regarding the years later...I started playing RPGs more or less in the end of the 90ies. That makes me one of the "second generation" of players. There were maybe 50 people who started before me, and that's a very generous estimation on my side. (I never met most of them, they were - and some still are - kinda clannish at the time. The guy who brought dice and books from the USA supposedly was acting like a Vampire Elder who didn't deign to speak to neonates - or at least that's what the people that he had introduced to RPGs told me. I suspect, personally, that they were trying to appear more important by withholding access to him...totally a "Goth clique" move, so it fits their profile).

The sum total popularity of D&D at the time was...one group/hive of closely-related groups, in the whole country. There were more people playing Fuzion and GURPS, I can almost guarantee you. (The D&D players at this time were the only ones behaving like hivemind Goths and holding their precious gamebooks and weirdly-shaped dice from the "unwashed masses who didn't know how to roleplay properly". I kid you not, that's an almost literal translation - maybe without the "unwashed" part. Oh yes, and just so you know: the lack of dice was a barrier at the time for people that didn't want to emulate polyhedrons with d6s - which I've done. There's a reason, however, why all games ever published here used only d6s, and that's still to change.
I got introduced to D&D by one of the "D&D clique" who met me at a shop where "strats" were being sold. His ability at DMing, or lack thereof, almost lead me to drop the whole idea of RPGs, which is why I say that my successful introduction to RPGs was via different games, and D&D amost lead me to skip the whole hobby - though in reality, it's one DM's fault. But he did persuade me to skip D&D for a long, long time).

Then the first RPG was published and the authors made it a point to tell us they haven't read any of the RPGs popular in other countries, D&D included, because they didn't want to be influenced by them. It seems they were writing the RPG in order to add a game to the shared setting of their novels, or so I've been told semi-officially;). So, they were taking just the idea of RPGs, not even from D&D but from people who were playing different systems at the time...and odds are those games weren't D&D, because the only guys I've heard them mention were FUZION and GURPS fans.
We fully believed them about not having read those systems BTW, to the point that those of us who were playing already told them they should have! Their first edition was a total mess system-wise (I think they relied on not trying to game the system and the GM fudging in their playtests). We also told them an open playtest would have been much better.
Just like with OD&D, though, there were loyal fans who pieced a game out of the system by covering the gaps themselves, sometimes with houserules:D!

The other game that was published years later, was made by a guy who currently works as a professional game designer. He had read and played a host of games, and was inspired by them all, I think. The main advantage of his game was that it was playable, unlike the other available option...:D
(It had some of the issues of the 3+ edition of D&D, though, and there were other similarities as well - though it's not really part of the d20, what with only using 3d6 for all checks).

QuoteBut yes, some times licensing issues were -not- involved at all.

You can now bet on that.

QuoteThis one genuinely surprises me.  Then again, France was kind of a hipster nation before being a hipster was even cool.  ("We like Jerry Lewis -because- you don't.")

I think it's more a case of the French appreciating horror. Most of the French games I've seen have such elements. (And I have no idea why hipsters would like CoC, but whatever).
Not sure what's the deal with Jerry Lewis, though;).

QuoteI'm not saying they don't exist, I'm saying they weren't (and likely aren't) relevant in terms of sales, plays, and larger cultural impact.

I think you're wrong, but ours is a field with an awful lack of hard data.

QuoteYou can love your local Boris' Bulgarian Burgers all you want because they're just that damn delicious, but compared to McDonalds they are irrelevant by any objective measure you care to use.

Unless you're talking about the impact of Boris' Bulgarian Burgers on Bulgarian sales, plays and larger culture. In which case, McD is hardly relevant.

Quote from: cranebump;948498So, it was MORE mature to pretend to be a vampire than to pretend to be an elf?

I also would say that, long before WoD came around, you had characters, and stories, and relationships, and etc. They didn't reinvent the wheel. Just looks like they found a way to package angst and self-absorption into a nice dice mechanic.:-)

I agree with everything except the idea that V:tM had "a nice dice mechanic":D!

Quote from: CRKrueger;948523The Goth chicks I remember are a little closer to this:

[video=youtube;Qlh-VSBxcJs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qlh-VSBxcJs[/youtube]

Thanks, man! I really, really mean it!
After all the "wooden zombies" I saw in the other clips, I needed a palate cleanser...:p

Quote from: san dee jota;948529Onyx Path, or some of TBP's mod staff?  I mean, there's overlap to be sure, but I wouldn't equate the two.

TBP: "Tokyo Black: Tournament of Rapists is rapey!"
Me:  "Yep, it's an RPG based on hentai.  What do you expect?"
TBP: "It should be pulled from distribution!"
Me: "You're advocating censorship?"
TBP: "It's an RPG that promotes rape, so yes!"
Me: "Have you read it?"
TBP: "I read the title, and that's enough!"  (seriously, OBS said like -two- people bought the thing before it was pulled as I recall, but everyone was feeding off of an echo-chamber effect)
Me: "What about Exalted Infernals?"
TBP: "Well, we -like- -that- book.  Despite the rape."
Me: "Don't forget the child rape.  You're giving it a pass too."
TBP: "Well, that book was published a long time ago, so nobody cares anymore." (seriously, this was the reasoning I was given.  Sad thing is, it seems to be the real reasoning used)

The main lesson I've learned about rape and TBP is this: if your production values are good enough (e.g. you have Melissa Uran do the pictures of rape, as in Scroll of Swallowed Darkness), and you -limit- your raping to an acceptable amount (there's only like two or three pics of rape in SoSD), and your developer isn't an active jerk (I'm pretty sure the dev at the time didn't say much of -anything- on the forums), then you get a pass.  And remember, Scroll was meant to be a somewhat silly book... with rape.

Alas, it seems like that to me as well.
And you know what they say to authors, if your audience gets you wrong in the same way, the problem is not in the audience. TBP should consider that lesson if they don't mean that "some amount of rape is okay if you're not a douche and have nice art";).

Quote from: Voros;948564Lucius Shepard, Michael Talbot, George R. Martin, Suzy Charnas and Barbara Hambly all wrote some good to excellent vampire fiction in the 80s. The Light at the End by Skipp and Spector is also a terrifically fun pulpy vampire novel that would make a great midnight movie. I also assume Dan Simmons' vampire novels are also good as everything else I've read from him in the horror genre has been excellent.

Those later Rice novels are often painfully bad, particularly the dialogue.

I've read the early Rice novels, thanks to a Goth chick I was dating, and I disagree that the later ones were much worse.

Also, I'd like to see what TrippyHippy would report.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;948623I definitely think that WoD shook things up a lot and it challenged D&D in ways other games really hadn't, but there were definitely other RPGs being played by a lot of gamers at the time (sure half or more of the stuff at the local game store was D&D, but there was usually a bunch of other games as well and plenty of people were playing them). D&D was the most instantly recognizable, it was synonymous with RPGs themselves, but I remember playing plenty of Choasium and ICE games. We had Star Wars, TORG, not to mention GURPS. These were widely played, both by dedicated fans who preferred them to D&D and by D&D fans as well. My experience gaming is that in a typical group of five players, as many as two to three would also be running campaigns at the same time as well (usually from the same group of core players)----and you'd often have that guy who ran the occasional one shot or mini-campaign. We had one GM who ran GURPS pretty exclusively. We also had someone who loved West End stuff, and one of them would also run odd games from time to time (for example I remember playing the RPG version of the Dark Sword trilogy). One shots of Cthulu were quite standard.

The big thing that Vampire did was allow you to play the monster. That was the big core conceit that got people excited. It was also presented in a way that didn't seem to focus as much on the mechanical stuff. And it tapped into the zeitgeist on multiple fronts (horror was popular, vampires in particular were popular, grunge was gaining and indie rock were gaining traction with a growing youth subculture around them, etc). It came about at a time when sympathetic villains were a big thing, where there were several vampire novel lines that told things from the monster's perspective.

That's more or less my impression from the 2000s...but then, Vampire arrived (yes, later) and we had a long debate whether it amounts to anything new.
My first reaction was, however, "why bother playing the thing I try to kill in other games?" I knew vampires were monsters since before I was playing RPGs, as part of folklore, so why would anyone play it was beyond me:).
Then I tried it, because why not give it a shot, and found out that it's not about playing a vampire, but about playing modern people infected with vampirism and drawn in what amounted to a sect. That I was able to get behind;)!

Quote from: AsenRG;948640Alas, it seems like that to me as well.
And you know what they say to authors, if your audience gets you wrong in the same way, the problem is not in the audience. TBP should consider that lesson if they don't mean that "some amount of rape is okay if you're not a douche and have nice art";).

Well, they'll still complain loudly and incessantly about it. But it's true, I've never heard anyone actually clamour for Manual of Exalted Power: Infernals should not be sold in stores.

I'm not sure if that's because they like the writers and the art, though, so much as because blacklisting MoEP:I would have left a hole in their Exalted collection. And in a fight between morals and a true geek's compulsion towards completeness, we know which one's going to win every time. :p

Quote from: Baeraad;948655Well, they'll still complain loudly and incessantly about it. But it's true, I've never heard anyone actually clamour for Manual of Exalted Power: Infernals should not be sold in stores.

I'm not sure if that's because they like the writers and the art, though, so much as because blacklisting MoEP:I would have left a hole in their Exalted collection. And in a fight between morals and a true geek's compulsion towards completeness, we know which one's going to win every time. :p

And thus double standards are born;).

Quote from: AsenRG;948677And thus double standards are born;).

I'd argue that double-standards have been around about as long as people.  :cool:

After all... I don't want to be held to the same standards that I want YOU PEOPLE held to!

Quote from: ningauble;948624I would think a new version would somehow combine the aesthetics of Twilight, Harry Potter, Steampunk, Cyberpunk, and post-industrial zombie shit.

I'm not sure about the rest of that, especially trying to mix them - but it's kinda surprising that no one has blatantly gone for the Harry Potter vibe in a TTRPG.  It'd probably have to have as much or more about relationships etc. instead of combat - but there have been several games that do that already.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;948680I'm not sure about the rest of that, especially trying to mix them - but it's kinda surprising that no one has blatantly gone for the Harry Potter vibe in a TTRPG.  It'd probably have to have as much or more about relationships etc. instead of combat - but there have been several games that do that already.

I recall one during the d20 boom, cant think of the name of it though. Red-something?

Quote from: AsenRG;948640And you know what they say to authors, if your audience gets you wrong in the same way, the problem is not in the audience. TBP should consider that lesson if they don't mean that "some amount of rape is okay if you're not a douche and have nice art";).

The problem is, that's exactly what they DO mean.  That's what's gone wrong with identity politics.  What started out as a sane way of looking at issues of race and class, intersectionality (basically being that a black woman has issues that aren't addressed by just considering her as "black" or as a "woman" but both.), has turned into the Identitarian Cult where what you do doesn't matter at all.  All that matters is the Identity of the perpetrator and victim.  Censorship, assault, rape, murder, genocide, anything is ok as long as it's a "Right Group" doing it to a "Wrong Group".  The problem gets even worse when "Wrong Group" isn't Cis-Gendered, Heterosexual White Men who Lena Dunham wants to exterminate, but "anyone we can stick an 'ist tag on no longer has any human rights or protections under the law".  At that point it's just ThoughtCrime and the penalty is death.  I don't know about you, but "Orwell was Right!" isn't an RPG I want to play, let alone live out.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;948692I recall one during the d20 boom, cant think of the name of it though. Red-something?

Redhurst. Pretty nice book, actually, but mostly a description of the school rather than how to play students.

Quote from: san dee jota;948617Case in point: Games Workshop and Fantasy Flight Games.  FFG was making GW some degree of money through card, board, and TTRP games using the GW licenses (including things like Talisman and Fury of Dracula, besides all the Warhammer stuff).  It's not clear exactly -why- they parted ways, but ultimately FFG no longer had the license.

Case #2: Marvel Heroic Roleplaying.  One day MWP realized the licensing wasn't worth what Marvel wanted (likely after Marvel upped either demands or fees or both), and now neither of them have money from the TTRPG (and supposedly MWP had a stockpile full of books they couldn't sell, and are likely pulped by now).  

1: FFG stated that they could no longer meet GWs licensing fee. GW is notoriously fickle with their licensing too and every project is racing the crazy clock ticking down to GW upping the fee or just yanking the agreement at the 11th hour.

2: This happens more often than we'd like and why we point out to designers who come on the scene with these grand ideas to license so-n-so IP that its a pain in the ass from start to finish and 90% of the time is doomed to failure before you even get a foot in the door and then 9 of the remaining 10% crash when they find out the licensing fees. Then those survivours die when they find out that... why no. The IP owner is not going to produce the game. And on down the line even after you have produced the game.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;948623I definitely think that WoD shook things up a lot and it challenged D&D in ways other games really hadn't, but there were definitely other RPGs being played by a lot of gamers at the time (sure half or more of the stuff at the local game store was D&D, but there was usually a bunch of other games as well and plenty of people were playing them).

All vampire did was find and exploit a niche that TSR was not in some way. Traveler nailed the Sci-Fi niche, Call of Cthulhu found the horror niche, Gurps planted its jackboots on generic system, and Vampire staked out the "play the monster" niche. Had the storyteller system been instead for say a generic fantasy or sci-fi setting it likely would have receded into the background with all the rest.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;948618Lovecraft's stories were obscure, it was most definitely the rpg that popularized them in geek culture outside of an incredibly small niche of pulp enthusiasts before that point.

Don't forget the series of HPL movies in the 80s (From Beyond, ReAnimator, etc).

And those clearly inspired by HPL as well (Alien, The Thing, etc).

Quote from: Omega;948711All vampire did was find and exploit a niche that TSR was not in some way. Traveler nailed the Sci-Fi niche, Call of Cthulhu found the horror niche, Gurps planted its jackboots on generic system, and Vampire staked out the "play the monster" niche. Had the storyteller system been instead for say a generic fantasy or sci-fi setting it likely would have receded into the background with all the rest.

Exactly!

All these years later, there hasn't been much change in the leaders of each niche.

Quote from: CRKrueger;948523The Goth chicks I remember are a little closer to this:

[video=youtube;Qlh-VSBxcJs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qlh-VSBxcJs[/youtube]

Oh my sides.  

FLESHGOD APOCALYPSE AGONY well just toot my horn and call me a model-t isn't that the cutest little gothbunny name!

Run along now, Scout!  go, go!  There's a whole thimble of turkish coffee waiting to be drunk!

This is about the World of Pretentiousness. Why is anyone surprised that the company is acting like a bunch of elitist jerks?

Quote from: CRKrueger;948696The problem is, that's exactly what they DO mean.  That's what's gone wrong with identity politics.  What started out as a sane way of looking at issues of race and class, intersectionality (basically being that a black woman has issues that aren't addressed by just considering her as "black" or as a "woman" but both.), has turned into the Identitarian Cult where what you do doesn't matter at all.  All that matters is the Identity of the perpetrator and victim.  Censorship, assault, rape, murder, genocide, anything is ok as long as it's a "Right Group" doing it to a "Wrong Group".  The problem gets even worse when "Wrong Group" isn't Cis-Gendered, Heterosexual White Men who Lena Dunham wants to exterminate, but "anyone we can stick an 'ist tag on no longer has any human rights or protections under the law".  At that point it's just ThoughtCrime and the penalty is death.  I don't know about you, but "Orwell was Right!" isn't an RPG I want to play, let alone live out.

You know, I'd always expected the Right would try and prove Orwell right, as it has historically tried to (though some people on this board might try to claim it wasn't Right, it remains a laughable assertion:)).
But no, I'm no more willing to enact that scenario than you are, regardless of where the danger comes from.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;948720This is about the World of Pretentiousness. Why is anyone surprised that the company is acting like a bunch of elitist jerks?

So if we expect if of them, we should just let them get away with it without calling them elitist jerks;)?

No. Absolutely not.

They are acting like a bunch of attention starved little kids. The best thing to do is: Ignore them.

When they don't get the attention they want. They will just go away.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;948719Oh my sides.  

FLESHGOD APOCALYPSE AGONY well just toot my horn and call me a model-t isn't that the cutest little gothbunny name!

Run along now, Scout!  go, go!  There's a whole thimble of turkish coffee waiting to be drunk!

That's the name of the band/song.  The chick's name is Mahafsoun.  She does metal and fusion dances to a ton of different bands.  Mostly various flavors of metal.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;948720This is about the World of Pretentiousness. Why is anyone surprised that the company is acting like a bunch of elitist jerks?

I don't think theres much surprise, per se. I'm more surprised by the posters bending over backwards to try and defend the obvious bullshit being peddled.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;948733I don't think theres much surprise, per se. I'm more surprised by the posters bending over backwards to try and defend the obvious bullshit being peddled.

Dick comment.

You make your opinion known, people respond with their own. What makes your perspective so sacrosanct?

Moreover, anybody trying to argue, as you have done, that Vampire/White Wolf didn't make a major impact in gaming during the 1990s is pretty much in denial. In terms of historical accounts (via Shannon Appelcline), anecdotal accounts of gamers and retail outlets, real play trends (LARPs et al), actual sales records and the number of 'dark fantasy' imitators in the 1990s - they evidently did.

If you then want to go and build a thread complaining about a pretty innocuous self-promotional ad for a documentary, then feel free. But it's you doing the bending over backwards here to get that message out. Others are merely responding to it.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;948734Dick comment.

Dick video, so defending it is a dick move.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;948735Dick video, so defending it is a dick move.

Matter of opinion, isn't it. Dick.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;948737Matter of opinion, isn't it. Dick.

Its dicks all the way down.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;948720This is about the World of Pretentiousness. Why is anyone surprised that the company is acting like a bunch of elitist jerks?

Elitist self entitled plagiarizing jerks.

Quote from: CRKrueger;948730That's the name of the band/song.  The chick's name is Mahafsoun.  She does metal and fusion dances to a ton of different bands.  Mostly various flavors of metal.

Told you, man, that's part of the legacy of tribal belly dance being started in SF bay area. (It's an improvisational collaborative style incorporating core elements of belly dance.) In many ways you'll see elements of that, butoh (a post-war Japan improv-collab style expressing the soul amid nothingness & pain,) flamenco, and/or other ethnic classical dance in the SF scene spill out into the surrounds. It's like how capoeria and palau exploded in the rave scene ages ago. All those ethnographic studies majors gotta do something with that energy!

You're just that close to our regional crazy! ;) (Though this fabled Roanoke sounds like a road trip that needs to happen.)

I dunno how y'all have the energy to grouse about these controversy mongers all over again, like it hasn't been over 25 years already, but I'm gonna take these aging bones & party in the city to First & Last & Always. If my back doesn't give out, I'll party tomorrow to britpop, Madchester, shoegazer, pre-rave post-punk Miserablism, 90s pub rock, too. (That was for you Stefon fans out there! :p )

Hurr hurr hurr, "dicks".

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;948757Hurr hurr hurr, "dicks".

and the summoning ritual is complete

Quote from: TrippyHippy;948734You make your opinion known, people respond with their own. What makes your perspective so sacrosanct?

Honesty.

For example...

Quoteanybody trying to argue, as you have done, that Vampire/White Wolf didn't make a major impact in gaming during the 1990s

There's a dishonest comment. That was never at any point my argument.

QuoteIf you then want to go and build a thread complaining about a pretty innocuous self-promotional ad for a documentary

I pointed out the obvious fact that the video made untruthful claims.

You argued against that on the basis that "because money" or "because pop culture" that those lies are somehow not lies. And I've rejected that argument at every turn and will continue to do so. Thats not an example of me bending over backwards, thats an example of you trying very hard to excuse dishonesty based on a limited perception of reality filtered solely through what you've decided is important or not.

(http://i.imgur.com/yrJYj.gif)

Quote from: Tristram Evans;948761Honesty.

For example...

There's a dishonest comment. That was never at any point my argument.

Then what IS your argument here?.. because that is basically all that is being said in that trailer: White Wolf/Vampire made a cultural impact. Indeed, if you want to go on the dishonesty argument, how about addressing the point that your charge of the documentary claiming that there were no other RPGs other than D&D before Vampire was never actually said in it.  

QuoteI pointed out the obvious fact that the video made untruthful claims.

No you didn't. You misrepresented them. You are the one making untruthful claims about what was said in their video.

QuoteYou argued against that on the basis that "because money" or "because pop culture" that those lies are somehow not lies. And I've rejected that argument at every turn and will continue to do so. Thats not an example of me bending over backwards, thats an example of you trying very hard to excuse dishonesty based on a limited perception of reality filtered solely through what you've decided is important or not.

I'm saying it made a cultural impact, as does the documentary ad. You have since spent more time on this thread than anyone complaining about things that are pure exaggeration. Indignant much?

Quote from: TrippyHippy;948766Then what IS your argument here?.. because that is basically all that is being said in that trailer: White Wolf/Vampire made a cultural impact. Indeed, if you want to go on the dishonesty argument, how about addressing the point that your charge of the documentary claiming that there were no other RPGs other than D&D before Vampire was never actually said in it.  

No you didn't. You misrepresented them. You are the one making untruthful claims about what was said in their video.

I'm saying it made a cultural impact, as does the documentary ad. You have since spent more time on this thread than anyone complaining about things that are pure exaggeration. Indignant much?

Since at this point I'm just going to assume you didn't watch it, here's what was claimed in the video:

"Throughout the 70s and 80s, all roleplaying games were fantasy games"

"You go on an adventure, you kill a dragon, and you hit repeat"

"The World of Darkness changed everything"

"Here were suddenly games about characters and stories and relationships"

So, there's the bullshit. Objectively false, misleading statements. I'm not misrepresenting them, I'm not making any exaggerated claims. I'm calling bullshit, bullshit.

I'm sure there were story type games before White Wolf but as a woman I never heard of them or cared. For all the fact that White Wolf's actual game engine sucked balls until NWoD they nailed the other side of gaming cold. Typically that other side appeals to women. This ad is pretty spot on and is doing what it designed to do. I hate the direction NuWhite Wolf seems to be going but if successful I might be able to buy games I prefer at an actual physical outlet and not the POD route, which I hate and do under duress.

Because if NuWhite Wolf is successful Onyx Path and even Hasbro will have to rethink their strategy. Big win for me in my opinion. I really hate online shopping it's to easy to screw people over. I want to physically see/touch the product and see if it passes my standards before paying a dime. Deal with it.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;948771Since at this point I'm just going to assume you didn't watch it, here's what was claimed in the video:

"Throughout the 70s and 80s, all roleplaying games were fantasy games"

"You go on an adventure, you kill a dragon, and you hit repeat"

"The World of Darkness changed everything"

"Here were suddenly games about characters and stories and relationships"

So, there's the bullshit. Objectively false, misleading statements. I'm not misrepresenting them, I'm not making any exaggerated claims. I'm calling bullshit, bullshit.

And to remind you again that you are overstating a literal interpretation of that statement, rather than the cultural reference they are making, while failing to address your own statement that they had claimed there were no other games other than D&D before Vampire. They did not.

In terms of the available games, nobody is claiming there weren't alternatives. In terms of culture, however, the majority of gamers in the 80s still played AD&D/D&D exclusively, and of those that didn't, most of the alternatives were also fantasy games like RuneQuest, Warhammer, etc. In the nineties, Vampire led a shift whereby many gamers became more interested in playing alternatives to the established fantasy norm, while also becoming more interested in games with a 'storytelling' motif.

That is all that has been said in this video. You are are rallying against your own skewed interpretation.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;948777And to remind you again that you are overstating a literal interpretation of that statement, rather than the cultural reference they are making.

At this point I can just cut and paste from earlier posts:

 " thats an example of you trying very hard to excuse dishonesty based on a limited perception of reality filtered solely through what you've decided is important or not."

Bullshit remains bullshit.

Yeah this shit is why I put Trippy on my ignore list.  It is like arguing with a wall.

Quote from: Marleycat;948775Because if NuWhite Wolf is successful Onyx Path and even Hasbro will have to rethink their strategy. Big win for me in my opinion. I really hate online shopping it's to easy to screw people over. I want to physically see/touch the product and see if it passes my standards before paying a dime. Deal with it.

I prefer buying games through a physical outlet too. You can't truly browse a book from an online summary. Having it actually in your hands gives you the opportunity to truly make an informed decision.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;948784I prefer buying games through a physical outlet too. You can't truly browse a book from an online summary. Having it actually in your hands gives you the opportunity to truly make an informed decision.

The thing is if I like the quality baseline and am able to flip through the pages and at least skim the things I'm interested in on my time schedule concerning any game. If yes, I will spend 60-70 at least on a well made book if the former has been met. Possibly far more, I demand to understand what I'm buying front to back and that's impossible without interaction with the physical product.

(I don't buy many RPG books currently because obviously they don't care about my standards). At least Hasbro has it right for the first time ever.

Quote from: Snowman0147;948781Yeah this shit is why I put Trippy on my ignore list.  It is like arguing with a wall.

As opposed to the flexible, reasonable attitudes of every one else who argues online? :D

Quote from: Nexus;948786As opposed to the flexible, reasonable attitudes of every one else who argues online? :D

TrippyHappy is on somebody's ban list? I know I'm a bitch but really?

When he keeps supporting lies and bullshit yes.

Quote from: Marleycat;948785The thing is if I like the quality baseline and am able to flip through the pages and at least skim the things I'm interested in on my time schedule concerning any game. If yes, I will spend 60-70 at least on a well made book if the former has been met. Possibly far more, I demand to understand what I'm buying front to back and that's impossible without interaction with the physical product.

(I don't buy many RPG books currently because obviously they don't care about my standards). At least Hasbro has it right for the first time ever.

Perfectly reasonable to me.

In the last month. Dealing with POD. I ended up with a couple of books I likely will never use.

If I could have physically browsed them instead. I could have figured out that they weren't for me pretty quickly. And saved myself the financial hit from buying them.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;948795Perfectly reasonable to me.

In the last month. Dealing with POD. I ended up with a couple of books I likely will never use.

If I could have physically browsed them instead. I could have figured out that they weren't for me pretty quickly. And saved myself the financial hit from buying them.

Exactly. I'm done with flash and the treadmill. DnD5 is finding the balance. It's still too little but I prefer too little rather than too much.

Quote from: Snowman0147;948794When he keeps supporting lies and bullshit yes.

I like you Snowman so okay. But I don't understand. He's pretty cool. I remember him during the OWOD/NWOD changeover, he had issues about MtAw 1e until it was properly explained to him.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;948757Hurr hurr hurr, "dicks".

Just for Gronan:
[video=youtube;2OCjPbQgDwU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OCjPbQgDwU[/youtube]

Quote from: AsenRG;948640I've read the early Rice novels, thanks to a Goth chick I was dating, and I disagree that the later ones were much worse.

Well for native English readers dialogue like this:

“To be godless is probably the first step to innocence," he said, "to lose the sense of sin and subordination, the false grief for things supposed to be lost."
So by innocence you mean not an absence of experience, but an absence of illusions."
An absence of need for illusions," he said. "A love of and respect for what is right before your eyes.”

Is not what we would call 'good.' Rare to encounter such wooden pseduo-human dialogue outside a Rand novel.

Trippy, I'm one of the people who think Vampire did make an impact, not only in gaming, but in the culture at large, but sorry, Tristam's got you, that video has some total horseshit in it...

"Throughout the 70s and 80s, all roleplaying games were fantasy games" - Nope.  They could have said MOST, the word chosen was ALL.  Are they saying they were the first non-fantasy RPG? No, but they sure are implying it.

"You go on an adventure, you kill a dragon, and you hit repeat" - Obviously referencing D&D Dungeoncrawling, but D&D had been exploring other modes of play for over a decade, not to mention every other RPG, most of which were not Dungeoncrawlers.

"Here were suddenly games about characters and stories and relationships" - This statement is so false it created The Forge in response. :D  Even if you limit yourself solely to D&D, TSR itself had been moving in that direction since Dragonlance 7 years prior.

So, objectively bullshit, and if you can't admit that, you're the mealymouthed shitweasel people claim you are. :D

But...now I'll smack Tristam about the head and shoulders as well...it's a documentary.  Documentaries aren't fact lists, many times they are an exploration of how people viewed events.  If you're interviewing someone ignorant of the history of RPGs up to that point, and they state how they thought Vampire changed all of roleplaying, that's their perspective.  The documentary film maker is only being a fucktard if they attempt to use that as evidence for a case of objective proof.

Now, back to Trippy...but this isn't the whole documentary.  This is an AD mainly interviewing industry insiders who know very well what the history of RPGs is.

This ad is a puff piece which overstates its case in an eye-rollingly overstated manner which may very well amount to outright falsehood...it just depends on the content of the actual documentary.

But, it is safe to say without Vampire, I doubt LA would have been so interesting as a gamer, and I would have spent a lot less time washing  black lipstick off my cock, so I can be magnanimous and forgive. ;)

This is where I appreciate Sine Nomine Publishing for having free core pdfs so you can review the book and PoD options if you want a physical book.

Your Incredible Hulk icon does not help with that black lipstick image.

Quote from: CRKrueger;948805But...now I'll smack Tristam about the head and shoulders as well...it's a documentary.  Documentaries aren't fact lists, many times they are an exploration of how people viewed events.  If you're interviewing someone ignorant of the history of RPGs up to that point, and they state how they thought Vampire changed all of roleplaying, that's their perspective.  The documentary film maker is only being a fucktard if they attempt to use that as evidence for a case of objective proof.
)

That's fair enough. and it this point all we're evaluating is a trailer, with out of context attention grabbers. So I can say the narrative the trailer itself is pushing is bullshit, but this doesn't necessarily in any way indite the actual documentary. And, honestly, I'm interested in seeing it either way, so the trailer is, at the least, effective.

Quote from: CRKrueger;948805Trippy, I'm one of the people who think Vampire did make an impact, not only in gaming, but in the culture at large, but sorry, Tristam's got you, that video has some total horseshit in it...

"Throughout the 70s and 80s, all roleplaying games were fantasy games" - Nope.  They could have said MOST, the word chosen was ALL.  Are they saying they were the first non-fantasy RPG? No, but they sure are implying it.

"You go on an adventure, you kill a dragon, and you hit repeat" - Obviously referencing D&D Dungeoncrawling, but D&D had been exploring other modes of play for over a decade, not to mention every other RPG, most of which were not Dungeoncrawlers.

"Here were suddenly games about characters and stories and relationships" - This statement is so false it created The Forge in response. :D  Even if you limit yourself solely to D&D, TSR itself had been moving in that direction since Dragonlance 7 years prior.

So, objectively bullshit, and if you can't admit that, you're the mealymouthed shitweasel people claim you are. :D

But...now I'll smack Tristam about the head and shoulders as well...it's a documentary.  Documentaries aren't fact lists, many times they are an exploration of how people viewed events.  If you're interviewing someone ignorant of the history of RPGs up to that point, and they state how they thought Vampire changed all of roleplaying, that's their perspective.  The documentary film maker is only being a fucktard if they attempt to use that as evidence for a case of objective proof.

Now, back to Trippy...but this isn't the whole documentary.  This is an AD mainly interviewing industry insiders who know very well what the history of RPGs is.

This ad is a puff piece which overstates its case in an eye-rollingly overstated manner which may very well amount to outright falsehood...it just depends on the content of the actual documentary.

But, it is safe to say without Vampire, I doubt LA would have been so interesting as a gamer, and I would have spent a lot less time washing  black lipstick off my cock, so I can be magnanimous and forgive. ;)

Interesting rant Green Boy. It was all bullshit until Dragonlance I know it hurts your small dick but you deserve the disrespect. You respect nothing or nobody so it's easy to give the same right back.

I seriously can't figure out your fear of games and people that like something other then sandbox crap created by the ST/GM/DM that sucks worse then sucking your cock? Seriously what is your issue about this?

It's why I like 5e. It's pretty powergamer proof. And even with all the bells on it's like midway between 2e/3e at best and likely much less given the 3/4e build game doesn't actually work to any actual advantage beyond weird edge cases that are easily eliminated by the DM.

The trailer is a clickbait / outrage bait. It seems to be doing its job.

It sucks off the WoD posers and infuriates the rest, including actual WW fans. It's trying to sell a false nostalgia and a retcon of history with some false hope that its preening will create a market for itself.

Sadly, it does an injustice to WoD's actual and honored legacy.

The facts aren't hard to find. RPGs have been full of developed characters, relationships and stories a decade before WW showed up, and there is no question WW brought in many new RPG players and played a substantial part of the 90s zeitgeist influencing (and being influenced by) various forms of media.

Quote from: Marleycat;948814Interesting rant Green Boy.

Yes, yes, all D&D before you first encountered it is crap Marley, I know, I know (sigh)...to the point where you lose the ability to read and comprehend language when it comes up and just get triggered when certain people say certain words, like a pavlovian dog.  If you want respect, may want to discuss things instead of screeching like a bat when someone says something you don't like, and that goes double when you can't actually comprehend what they are saying, so your argument comes out pure non-sequitur. ;)

Quote from: Spinachcat;948819The facts aren't hard to find. RPGs have been full of developed characters, relationships and stories a decade before WW showed up, and there is no question WW brought in many new RPG players and played a substantial part of the 90s zeitgeist influencing (and being influenced by) various forms of media.

You're not suggesting that both could be true...WW had an impact even if the ad was full of shit?  How reasonable. You're really high right now, aren't you? :D

Quote from: Snowman0147;948811Your Incredible Hulk icon does not help with that black lipstick image.

That was Banner, really.  Hulk wouldn't go near Goths, he's Metal all the way.

Quote from: CRKrueger;948805Trippy, I'm one of the people who think Vampire did make an impact, not only in gaming, but in the culture at large, but sorry, Tristam's got you, that video has some total horseshit in it...

"Throughout the 70s and 80s, all roleplaying games were fantasy games" - Nope.  They could have said MOST, the word chosen was ALL.  Are they saying they were the first non-fantasy RPG? No, but they sure are implying it.

"You go on an adventure, you kill a dragon, and you hit repeat" - Obviously referencing D&D Dungeoncrawling, but D&D had been exploring other modes of play for over a decade, not to mention every other RPG, most of which were not Dungeoncrawlers.

"Here were suddenly games about characters and stories and relationships" - This statement is so false it created The Forge in response. :D  Even if you limit yourself solely to D&D, TSR itself had been moving in that direction since Dragonlance 7 years prior.

So, objectively bullshit, and if you can't admit that, you're the mealymouthed shitweasel people claim you are. :D

But...now I'll smack Tristam about the head and shoulders as well...it's a documentary.  Documentaries aren't fact lists, many times they are an exploration of how people viewed events.  If you're interviewing someone ignorant of the history of RPGs up to that point, and they state how they thought Vampire changed all of roleplaying, that's their perspective.  The documentary film maker is only being a fucktard if they attempt to use that as evidence for a case of objective proof.

Now, back to Trippy...but this isn't the whole documentary.  This is an AD mainly interviewing industry insiders who know very well what the history of RPGs is.

This ad is a puff piece which overstates its case in an eye-rollingly overstated manner which may very well amount to outright falsehood...it just depends on the content of the actual documentary.

But, it is safe to say without Vampire, I doubt LA would have been so interesting as a gamer, and I would have spent a lot less time washing  black lipstick off my cock, so I can be magnanimous and forgive. ;)

I love reading your posts I have no clue if they're true and don't even care to be honest, I like Trippy. Now please get your black lipstick off my pussy...asshole.:)

Then again remember my favorite game is something you hate along with this whole site.;)

Quote from: CRKrueger;948823Yes, yes, all D&D before you first encountered it is crap Marley, I know, I know (sigh)...to the point where you lose the ability to read and comprehend language when it comes up and just get triggered when certain people say certain words, like a pavlovian dog.  If you want respect, may want to discuss things instead of screeching like a bat when someone says something you don't like, and that goes double when you can't actually comprehend what they are saying, so your argument comes out pure non-sequitur. ;)

So you're mad that I don't prefer your games and try to insult me? Interesting.... why are you worried about what I think given I get no respect...I never said I hate 0/1e but I did say I prefer 2e because that's my introduction into DnD. Sorry I'm not as old you I guess?

The push toward more story oriented RPGs started with one person. He worked at a whole host of different companies. Including TSR. His name was Aaron Allston.

He wrote a book for Champions that was considered a foundational tome for all roleplaying. Not just superhero games. That book was called Strike Force. And it was the first detailed illustration of running ongoing campaigns that lasted years. Campaigns with high emphasis on story.

White Wolf cribbed a lot of Aaron's work for the ST sections of their games. That's fact.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;948849And it was the first detailed illustration of running ongoing campaigns that lasted years.

(ahem)

http://www.lulu.com/ca/en/shop/society-of-ancients-and-tony-bath-and-john-curry/tony-baths-ancient-wargaming/paperback/product-15463540.html (http://www.lulu.com/ca/en/shop/society-of-ancients-and-tony-bath-and-john-curry/tony-baths-ancient-wargaming/paperback/product-15463540.html)


Granted thats not a "narrative RPG", its just the first documented ongoing fantasy campaign.

OTOH, I have a hard time believing narrative roleplaying wasnt created until 4 years after Dragonlance, 7 years after Call of Cthulhu, and over 13 years after Barker started his decades long Empire of the Petal Throne campaign.

But not having read Strike Force, I'm willing to be convinced. What does it offer thats unique and never appeared before that point?

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;948849The push toward more story oriented RPGs started with one person. He worked at a whole host of different companies. Including TSR. His name was Aaron Allston.

He wrote a book for Champions that was considered a foundational tome for all roleplaying. Not just superhero games. That book was called Strike Force. And it was the first detailed illustration of running ongoing campaigns that lasted years. Campaigns with high emphasis on story.

White Wolf cribbed a lot of Aaron's work for the ST sections of their games. That's fact.

No game is created in a vacuum. I would also say that Chicago by Night owed a lot to WFRP's Power Behind the Throne.

Quote from: Marleycat;948847So you're mad that I don't prefer your games and try to insult me? Interesting.... why are you worried about what I think given I get no respect...I never said I hate 0/1e but I did say I prefer 2e because that's my introduction into DnD. Sorry I'm not as old you I guess?

Quote from: yojimbouk;948851No game is created in a vacuum. I would also say that Chicago by Night owed a lot to WFRP's Power Behind the Throne.

Never heard of it "ducks" before CK kills me. Seriously, I played WFRP 1/2e. I loved it but never heard of that module. I probably should go Gwen Stefani here... tell me about it guys.

Oh man is this thread entertaining.

I'm on your ignore list?

I'm honoured, snowflake.

Quote from: Snowman0147;948781Yeah this shit is why I put Trippy on my ignore list.  It is like arguing with a wall.

I'm on your ignore list?

I'm honoured, snowflake.

It's a non-issue that White Wolf was influenced by other companies. Of course they were. Mark Rein-Hagen, for example, was involved in the promotional Guide to Glorantha campaign in a video explaining the influence of Glorantha on Vampire: The Masquerade. If you care to investigate, all those White Wolf creators are happy to cite and discuss their influences - and it wasn't fucking Anne Rice novels, I can tell you.

As I said before, multiple times, it's not like White Wolf reinvented the wheel, it's just that they broke through the mainstream and allowed the alternative, including pre-existing games to travel through with it at a seminal point of time.

Flatly I don't care if people agree or not, or think they are arguing with a brick wall. I don't care if people are offended by the video promo or any of this thread. It's just what happened, so stick it in your pipe and smoke it.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;948862It's a non-issue that White Wolf was influenced by other companies. Of course they were. Mark Rein-Hagen, for example, was involved in the promotional Guide to Glorantha campaign in a video explaining the influence of Glorantha on Vampire: The Masquerade. If you care to investigate, all those White Wolf creators are happy to cite and discuss their influences - and it wasn't fucking Anne Rice novels, I can tell you.

As I said before, multiple times, it's not like White Wolf reinvented the wheel, it's just that they broke through the mainstream and allowed the alternative, including pre-existing games to travel through with it at a seminal point of time.

Flatly I don't care if people agree or not, or think they are arguing with a brick wall. I don't care if people are offended by the video promo or any of this thread. It's just what happened, so stick it in your pipe and smoke it.

Strawmen do make the best opponents.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;948863Strawmen do make the best opponents.

No strawmen involved. Stop coming up with flippant responses, and just address the points raised.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;948864No strawmen involved. Stop coming up with flippant responses, and just address the points raised.

There's nothing to address: that's the point of a strawman. You offer an argument to something no one is arguing against, because its so much easier.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;948849The push toward more story oriented RPGs started with one person. He worked at a whole host of different companies. Including TSR. His name was Aaron Allston.

He wrote a book for Champions that was considered a foundational tome for all roleplaying. Not just superhero games. That book was called Strike Force. And it was the first detailed illustration of running ongoing campaigns that lasted years. Campaigns with high emphasis on story.

White Wolf cribbed a lot of Aaron's work for the ST sections of their games. That's fact.

I did actually pick up the Strike Force book during the kickstarter campaign. I'm not sure that storytelling definitively started with Aaron Allston's work, but he did give a model of a detailed city-based campaign. This is pretty much the model used in Chicago by Night. However, there had been other detailed long term campaigns before then too. Carl Sargent had written Wahammer's Power Behind the Throne and Warhammer City before Strike Force was released, for example.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;948854Oh man is this thread entertaining.

It had me at Lipstick on pussies.

:D

Quote from: Tristram Evans;948867There's nothing to address: that's the point of a strawman. You offer an argument to something no one is arguing against, because its so much easier.

Yeah, I know what a straw man is, but I haven't used one. Address the issues raised.

Do you, or do you not, accept that Vampire broke through the mainstream and led the way for alternative games to D&D to become more accessible to an aware market?

I'm with Brendan this thread is entertaining and both you need to chill. Look I love NWOD in either version and I'm telling you relax. That advertisement is awesome. It's spot on and doing EXACTLY what it meant to do. Deal with it. The key being I DON'T ACTUALLY CARE WHAT ANYONE THINKS ABOUT MY PREFERENCES. And anyone playing OWOD should feel the same.

Yes, I'm crazy Marley and I accept it.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;948871Yeah, I know what a straw man is, but I haven't used one. Address the issues raised.

Do you, or do you not, accept that Vampire broke through the mainstream and led the way for alternative games to D&D to become more accessible to an aware market?

Please consult previous posts in this thread for the answer to this irrelevant question

Quote from: Tristram Evans;948874Please consult previous posts in this thread for the answer to this irrelevant question

It's not irrelevant. It's the point that has been made this whole time. Stop procrastinating and address it.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;948875It's not irrelevant. It's the point that has been made this whole time. Stop procrastinating and address it.

I straight up said it up with explanations in this thread and I'm on your side. So I'm not understanding what you've trying to drive at.

Kreuger mentioned this earlier, but I think I just don't get the reaction to the documentary, as it is pretty standard to put people in front of a camera and get their opinions. These are just recollections of events from people who were there and involved at the time. Doesn't mean they are accurate. It is just oral history, which is always prone to people getting things wrong or mistaking what happened locally in their area as being part of a much larger trend. Still, around here at least, Vampire definitely had a very big impact. While I think it is slightly inaccurate to say 'before vampire, no one did X', I can totally understand why someone would frame it that way (especially in a conversational interview).

Quote from: TrippyHippy;948875It's not irrelevant. It's the point that has been made this whole time. Stop procrastinating and address it.

nice try. When you actually address the debate that's been going on, then we can spend some time on your new position thats suddenly reallyreally urgent and important (snicker)

Or not, I don't care. Watching you flail about desperately to grasp at a win when your back's against the wall is hilarious too.

And THATS me being a dick ;)But you deserve it strawmanning and attempted gaslighting like a dork

Quote from: Tristram Evans;948889nice try. When you actually address the debate that's been going on, then we can spend some time on your new position thats suddenly reallyreally urgent and important (snicker)

Or not, I don't care. Watching you flail about desperately to grasp at a win when your back's against the wall is hilarious too.

And THATS me being a dick ;)But you deserve it strawmanning and attempted gaslighting like a dork

If you aren't prepared to address that simple point, then you are conceding it.

You are the one flailing here.

This point is critical because it makes the point that the documentary ad is making - that White Wolf/Vampire made a cultural impact in gaming that shifted people from D&D to other games, mainly their own but also opening the gates for others too. Gamers, in the main, stopped playing fantasy exclusively and started playing other genres, with Vampire at the forefront. The 'storytelling' motif became prevalent and games that put more emphasis on these aspects also started to grab more attention. To non-gamers, it also presented a different image of roleplayers which may have encouraged people from other groups to play. e.g. more female gamers.

It's also the broad point I have been making. In the case of the documentary ad, what you have done is get hung up on a literal interpretation of words, and then built yourself into a lather of indignancy that White Wolf were somehow attacking every other game and gamer in existence. All they are doing is celebrating their own game and illustrating why in a short, impactful way.

Its also appreciable that you've conceded your dickish behaviour as a point. Well done.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;948905If you aren't prepared to address that simple point, then you are conceding it.

How many times does one have to say to you that no one was arguing against that for it to penetrate your head? There's nothing to concede because there was never an objection. That's why it's a strawman dumbass.

But I'll take your cowardly goal post shifting as your concession that you were wrong in the debate that was actually going on, and I accept you are too cowardly or your ego is too fragile to admit you were wrong like a man.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;948907How many times does one have to say to you that no one was arguing against that for it to penetrate your head? There's nothing to concede because there was never an objection. That's why it's a strawman dumbass.

But I'll take your cowardly goal post shifting as your concession that you were wrong in the debate that was actually going on, and I accept you are too cowardly or you ego is too fragile to admit you were wrong like a man.

It's not shifting the goalposts if this has been the point I have made all along. It's not a straw man if you still haven't addressed the point, and you are still avoiding it. You can't start asserting that I am wrong and you are right if you don't at least address the point being raised. It even throws a direct accusation at you - that of your literal interpretation, which again you fail to address.

The entire thrust of this thread you started is based upon a misplaced indignancy. It's just an ad for a documentary where people are expressing their enthusiasm for a game and how they remember it's impact.

Your final comment does nothing to dispel the point that a) you are reacting with blind indignancy about all this, and possibly need to sit down and have a cup of tea,  and b) you're being dickish.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;948729No. Absolutely not.

They are acting like a bunch of attention starved little kids. The best thing to do is: Ignore them.

When they don't get the attention they want. They will just go away.

Being a parent, I wouldn't recommend this when dealing with kids, but in this case, I agree. I'm also planning to ignore it when it is out.
I tend to do that when I doubt that a documentary is being objective, anyway.

Quote from: Marleycat;948846Then again remember my favorite game is something you hate along with this whole site.;)

As I don't even know what your favorite game is, I can truthfully state, I do not not like it (yet). I therefore absolve the whole site.:-)

Quote from: Tristram Evans;948907...admit you were wrong like a man.

Hmmmm...I have observed many times that this leads to not admitting you're wrong, and then retreating to a safe location, like the bar/tool shed/man cave/fishin' hole/big ass pick up truck. Might be best to just slug each other in the shoulder and say, "Whatever, fucker!"

Quote from: Tristram Evans;948850But not having read Strike Force, I'm willing to be convinced. What does it offer thats unique and never appeared before that point?

Aaron Allston was also the author of the D&D Rules Cyclopedia. Which collated the BECMI D&D boxed sets into one thick, very loved rulebook.

THE GM advice in Strike Force was pretty much directly duplicated in all of White Wolf's books. From dealing with different player types. To handling individual character plots and ongoing off panel stories. The whole storytelling sections of White Wolf's games duplicated it pretty much whole cloth.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;948910It's not shifting the goalposts if this has been the point I have made all along.

Then what you're saying is that you entered into a debate without knowing what the debate was about? (he asks knowing the answer)

QuoteIt's not a straw man if you still haven't addressed the point, and you are still avoiding it. You can't start asserting that I am wrong and you are right if you don't at least address the point being raised. It even throws a direct accusation at you - that of your literal interpretation, which again you fail to address.

Quotestraw man
ˌstrô ˈman/
noun
noun: strawman
1.
an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.

No one was having an argument or debate about the point you're championing. You've inserted it into a conversation that has nothing to do with it, been told multiple times that no one has argued against that in this thread, anywhere, ever, and are insisting it needs to be addressed. There is no more literal example of a strawman possible. The strawman is "hypothetical poster who denies that White Wold had a huge cultural impact and influence on the hobby in the 90s." Can you find any examples from this thread of anyone denying that , ever? Of course not. Its not what any conversation in the thread has been about, and its nothing to do with the debate you decided to join in on. But you've realized that now, and so are doubling down on this to try and save face.

QuoteThe entire thrust of this thread you started is based upon a misplaced indignancy.

Prove it.

Quote from: cranebump;948931Hmmmm...I have observed many times that this leads to not admitting you're wrong, and then retreating to a safe location, like the bar/tool shed/man cave/fishin' hole/big ass pick up truck. Might be best to just slug each other in the shoulder and say, "Whatever, fucker!"

Oh, I know. I'm just having fun throwing his obvious failures in his face. I'll stop when it bores me, but sometimes an easy target is just fun. I'm not claiming I'm being mature, but since he resorted to ad hominem, I figured "you want to call me a dick? you ain't seen close to how big a dick I can be."

Quote from: Tristram Evans;948962Then what you're saying is that you entered into a debate without knowing what the debate was about? (he asks knowing the answer)

No. And now you are engaging in a straw man - just address the points I have raised, or concede them. Stop trying to muddy the waters about whether you consider them 'relevant' or not, as they are made relevant on this thread having been raised as points on it - which you have then attacked as being dishonest. You are clearly just trying to avoid answering them by doing so.

QuoteNo one was having an argument or debate about the point you're championing.

Then you are conceding the point, aren't you? White Wolf/Vampire was a culture-shifting game in the RPG hobby and this is all the documentary-ad is saying - and that is the point. It is a relevant point when you are going on about how "dishonest" others are for having a different perspective to yourself - either in the video or in this thread.
 

QuoteProve it.

YOU are proving your indignancy right now in your posting, and it's misplaced because there is nothing to be indignant about with the video you cited, unless you have a grudge against them.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;948963Oh, I know. I'm just having fun throwing his obvious failures in his face. I'll stop when it bores me, but sometimes an easy target is just fun. I'm not claiming I'm being mature, but since he resorted to ad hominem, I figured "you want to call me a dick? you ain't seen close to how big a dick I can be."

You are a dick. Well done.

To be sure, it wasn't an ad hominem in the use I started with. I was careful to refer to your comments on this thread as being a 'dick move'. Correct your behaviour and I'm sure you're a perfectly nice guy - but the specific 'dick move' I was referring to was where you actually tried an ad hominem on people in this thread "bending over backwards for defending the obvious bullshit being peddled" ie. having the temerity to disagree with your stance.

That is a dick move, precisely because it is an ad hominem in intent. It ignores the points being raised, and assumes that they are wrong because of denial or dishonesty implicit to their person or character - which is actually what you went on to accuse later in the thread in fact.

Of course if you want to be a dick, I'll say well done again for setting your own goals and meeting them - but we can let this go back and forth.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;948966No.

So you're admitting to deliberately strawmaning.

I'll wait for you to actually find your evidence that anyone in this thread was making the point you're arguing against.

Well...I wont hold my breath, because we both know you're lying through your teeth.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;948967You are a dick. Well done.

Thanks.

And you are a dishonest, straw-maning weasel. Well done.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;948973So you're admitting to deliberately strawmaning.

I'll wait for you to actually find your evidence that anyone in this thread was making the point you're arguing against.

Well...I wont hold my breath, because we both know you're lying through your teeth.

Er... your argument is to take the word 'no' out of any context at all as if it is somehow proof of 'deliberately strawmaning"?! Seriously?!?

I have presented no straw man arguments, you have simply used this word erroneously as an ongoing prevarication against addressing any points raised. Again, just address the points!

Why don't you two kids hug it out, then kiss and make up.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;948974Thanks.

And you are a dishonest, straw-maning weasel. Well done.

Well actually, I didn't admit to any of that - you are just attempting to force words into my mouth and clumsily ape my arguments into a retort. It didn't work, sorry, and you are still failing to address any points given to you.

Quote from: Voros;948977Why don't you two kids hug it out, then kiss and make up.

It's not really needed, or necessary. I'm just waiting for an actual response to what I am arguing.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;948877Kreuger mentioned this earlier, but I think I just don't get the reaction to the documentary, as it is pretty standard to put people in front of a camera and get their opinions. These are just recollections of events from people who were there and involved at the time. Doesn't mean they are accurate. It is just oral history, which is always prone to people getting things wrong or mistaking what happened locally in their area as being part of a much larger trend. Still, around here at least, Vampire definitely had a very big impact. While I think it is slightly inaccurate to say 'before vampire, no one did X', I can totally understand why someone would frame it that way (especially in a conversational interview).

Too reasonable. Nerds have had their feelings hurt. It is Kristallnacht all over again.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;948976Er... your argument is to take the word 'no' out of any context at all as if it is somehow proof of 'deliberately strawmaning"?! Seriously?!?

Nope, I gave you an out by admitting that you joined ina  debate but didn't understand what the debate was about, and in response to that question you answered :"No". So you've confirmed you did know the conversation had nothing to do with the new point you're trying to make.  It wasn't a misunderstanding on your part, its a deliberate strawman.

QuoteI have presented any straw man arguments

I know you have. Thanks for admitting it, even by way of a typo (or is that a Freudian slip?)

Quote from: Voros;948982It is Kristallnacht all over again.

Oh man, you've Godwinned the thread.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;948244I'd actually be interested in watching it, but the whole  "Everything before World of Darkness was stupid fantasy games for NERDS" message is so pathetically self-aggrandizing it wrinkles my brain.

This kind of reminds me when I met Raven McCracken and he told me he invented CCGs and "power games" and others all ripped it off him. For all I know this is true, but...

When we talk about our lives and work, we are all the heroes of our story. It's like when people talk about their work, apparently just they are 1 or 2 of their friends are the only competent people there, and the manager is stupid, and so on. But everyone tells me they're the only competent one at work, so who are the incompetent ones? I guess I never meet them.

This is natural, my own experience and perspective is after all what I know best. But some get a bit carried away.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;948986When we talk about our lives and work, we are all the heroes of our story.

Thats a good way of putting it.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;948983Nope, I gave you an out by admitting that you joined ina  debate but didn't understand what the debate was about, and in response to that question you answered :"No". So you've confirmed you did know the conversation had nothing to do with the new point you're trying to make.  It wasn't a misunderstanding on your part, its a deliberate strawman.

I know you have. Thanks for admitting it, even by way of a typo (or is that a Freudian slip?)

So you are presenting a two tailed hypothesis here that I either didn't understand your thread, or if not I must be strawmaning if you don't like the point I raised? That is a non sequitur.

Let me spell it out to you in one simple question that you can answer YES or NO:

Do you accept that White Wolf's Vampire was a culture shifting game in the RPG hobby, and that all this video is doing is celebrating that with memories from fans, which is nothing to be offended by?

Trippy, you're dipping rather casually into the Gaming and Non-Gaming categories for your arguments whenever it suits you.  

In gaming circles, before Vampire came out, TSR had been experimenting with different types of playstyles even back as far as first edition, and second edition increased that with its plethora of settings.

In gaming circles, again before Vampire came out, other games were coming out that moved away from traditional fantasy, like Cyberpunk 2020 and Shadowrun.

So claiming that Vampire, because of its wider cultural impact in non-gaming culture, opened the door" for those other games and playstyles in gaming culture is ignoring the fact that they indeed came first.

Nearly every aspect of Vampire and the WoD had been done in RPGs already.  It was the recipe that was important, combined with the culture at the time.  Without coinciding with Anne Rice and Goths, without gaming already in a post-Dragonlance wave of development towards metaplot heavy games, we're not having this conversation in 2017.

Very few things that have any impact are completely new, coming out of nowhere.  Almost all are supported by, if not require, predecessors and contempories that they rely upon and mix with, that's what allows them to catch on and become part of the zeitgeist.

Quote from: Spinachcat;948819The trailer is a clickbait / outrage bait. It seems to be doing its job.

I seriosuly doubt the creators of the trailer expected this kind of response. Probably because they're adults and don't realize what a bunch of drama queen cry babies the internet RPG 'community' can be.

Besides which, their real concern in making the trailer was to get those who don't know much about VtM or RPGs interested. Hence the hyperbole. You have to convince the average viewer that your subject is important enough for them to give a fuck about.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;948991So you are presenting a two tailed hypothesis here that I either didn't understand your thread, or if not I must be strawmaning if you don't like the point I raised? That is a non sequitur.

Nice try.

Fact: I was enagaged in a debate about several statements made in the trailer that I called bullshit.
Fact: You joined into said debate.
Fact: After thoroughly failing to address any of the issues in the debate that you joined in on, you started aggressively pushing an unrelated "point" that no one had argued against, and declaring that it needs to be addressed.
Opinion: you're really bad at this whole "internet arguments" thing.

QuoteLet me spell it out to you in one simple question that you can answer YES or NO:

Sorry, that's not a conversation I've ever been participating in. Still waiting for you to find an example of any poster who was.

Oh, here's one...

(https://gokaleo.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Screen-Shot-2013-09-02-at-5.22.07-PM.png)

Quote from: CRKrueger;948992Trippy, you're dipping rather casually into the Gaming and Non-Gaming categories for your arguments whenever it suits you.  

In gaming circles, before Vampire came out, TSR had been experimenting with different types of playstyles even back as far as first edition, and second edition increased that with its plethora of settings.

In gaming circles, again before Vampire came out, other games were coming out that moved away from traditional fantasy, like Cyberpunk 2020 and Shadowrun.

So claiming that Vampire, because of its wider cultural impact in non-gaming culture, opened the door" for those other games and playstyles in gaming culture is ignoring the fact that they indeed came first.

Nearly every aspect of Vampire and the WoD had been done in RPGs already.  It was the recipe that was important, combined with the culture at the time.  Without coinciding with Anne Rice and Goths, without gaming already in a post-Dragonlance wave of development towards metaplot heavy games, we're not having this conversation in 2017.

Very few things that have any impact are completely new, coming out of nowhere.  Almost all are supported by, if not require, predecessors and contempories that they rely upon and mix with, that's what allows them to catch on and become part of the zeitgeist.

I'm totally accepting that other games came first, and that alternative play styles were being tested. White Wolf themselves were already associated with Ars Magica too of course, which introduced many of the storytelling ideas it promoted in Vampire. But the phenomenal success of Vampire was what pointed a lot of gamers towards trying out other games with a new agenda and vigour. Even though there were plenty of games and new ideas out there, but they were still not being played much by the mainstream of gamers. The early 90s saw a shift in gaming culture, which was driven for a large part by White Wolf's success with Vampire. For the most part, I think they simply found a way to connect with a wider audience through their presentation, but that is another question. Nevertheless, their success did change things.

Take a game like Amber Diceless, for example. This game had actually been floating around for years without being published because it was seen as too alternative. When Vampire came out, it had a gentle introduction to the notion of diceless play in it's rules, while the White Wolf magazine actively promoted Amber as a game, and gave it a big positive review when it came out shortly after in 1991. I'm not sure Amber Diceless would even be remembered as a classic game, had there not been a cultural shift in gaming at the time to welcome it.

So yes, there were plenty of excellent games out there in the 1980s, and ideas, some more radical that Vampire as it happens, but they couldn't quite make the breakthrough into the mainstream market in the same manner that they can do now. These days even weird little indie games are able to make a splash.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;948849The push toward more story oriented RPGs started with one person. He worked at a whole host of different companies. Including TSR. His name was Aaron Allston.

Doubt that it can all be traced back to him but Alliston did a lot of very fine and innovative work for TSR and others. I'm always interested in reading anything he worked on.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949000Sorry, that's not a conversation I've ever been participating in. Still waiting for you to find an example of any poster who was.

So you refuse to answer a straightforward YES/NO question. It's not a conversation, it's a direct question for you to answer, which I'll repeat again:

Do you accept that White Wolf's Vampire was a culture shifting game in the RPG hobby, and that all this video is doing is celebrating that with memories from fans, which is nothing to be offended by?

Point made and it stands if you don't answer it.

Your original claim that there is a "New White Wolf Doc coming...and its going to piss off EVERYBODY" along with your other comments on this thread is refuted, with not one iota of wilful counterargument from yourself if you don't answer it. That is why it is relevant.

Quote from: Voros;948997I seriosuly doubt the creators of the trailer expected this kind of response. Probably because they're adults.

Yep, thats definitely the vibe I got from the trailer.

"this was made by very mature adults". Definitely.

Giggle.

Yeah people losing their shit on the net because of a trailer, they're the adults.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949003So you refuse to answer a straightforward YES/NO question.

Oh, its been answered pages and pages back. But actual reality is harmful to the life of a magical strawman friend, isn't it?

QuoteYour original claim that there is a "New White Wolf Doc coming...and its going to piss off EVERYBODY" is refuted.

LOL. WOW. I'm honestly surprised that you've stooped to a new level of dis ingenuousness.

Its been very amusing to see the range of desperate attempts to protect your fragile ego from having to admit you posted in error once backed into a corner. But now I'm just starting to feel sorry for you, which isn't as fun.

Quote from: Voros;949005Yeah people losing their shit on the net because of a trailer

I think you may have misperceived the situation quite drastically. Or are you thinking of RPGnet?

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949009Oh, its been answered pages and pages back. But actual reality is harmful to the life of a magical strawman friend, isn't it?

No it hasn't, and you can spare the effort right now, surely, of simply saying YES or NO for clarity?

There is no straw man here. Stop weaselling and answer the question - just ONCE!

Here it is again:

Do you accept that White Wolf's Vampire was a culture shifting game in the RPG hobby, and that all this video is doing is celebrating that with memories from fans, which is nothing to be offended by?

YES or NO?

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949011No it hasn't, and you can spare the effort right now, surely, of simply saying YES or NO for clarity?

There is no straw man here. Stop weaselling and answer the question - just ONCE!

Here it is again:

Do you accept that White Wolf's Vampire was a culture shifting game in the RPG hobby, and that all this video is doing is celebrating that with memories from fans, which is nothing to be offended by?

YES or NO?

Can we answer yes it shifted culture, and still be offended by it?:-)

* stations bucket brigade of holy water covering the exits (vampires, after all) *
* sets thread on fire *

So I've seen a few gaming docs over the last few years: Uber Goober, The Dwarvenaut, The Dungeonmasters, Darkkon, etc. but none of them were that good or particularly informative, overall. And Darkkon aside, they were all pretty heavily focused specifically on D&D without really covering the width and breadth of the hobby.

Does anyone know of any really good ones?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;949018* stations bucket brigade of holy water covering the exits (vampires, after all) *
* sets thread on fire *

Dont forget to pass around the Holy Water Sprinklers. 2d4 damage vs goth sized leeches. :cool:

Yeah I was wondering the same. Couldn't make it through the dreck of The Dwarvenaut.

By far the best I've seen is this short one by the despicable 'liberal' fake news source the NYT. Inspiring stuff by the end actually.

[video=youtube_share;ATUpSPj0x-c]https://youtu.be/ATUpSPj0x-c[/youtube]

Also the clips from this D&D Documentary were very promising but now the entire project is dead due to a legal dispute by the filmmakers among themselves (ironically echoing the legal dispute between Arneson and Gygax).

[video=youtube_share;M8Pis2bqcIY]https://youtu.be/M8Pis2bqcIY[/youtube]

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949019So I've seen a few gaming docs over the last few years: Uber Goober, The Dwarvenaut, The Dungeonmasters, Darkkon, etc. but none of them were that good or particularly informative, overall. And Darkkon aside, they were all pretty heavily focused specifically on D&D without really covering the width and breadth of the hobby.

Does anyone know of any really good ones?

Thought Darkkon was about LARPing?

One of the more interesting RPG documentaries I've seen was "The Dungeons & Dragons Experience" which was done back in the 80s or 90s and is overall D&D centric. But covers other media as well. Interesting takes on the industry and gaming styles. The Traveler TV show though is still going nowhere.

Quote from: cranebump;949015Can we answer yes it shifted culture, and still be offended by it?:-)

Sure - it's a perfectly reasonable answer which could then be built on in further debate. It's an answer at all is what I'm after!

Quote from: Voros;949024Yeah I was wondering the same. Couldn't make it through the dreck of The Dwarvenaut.

By far the best I've seen is this short one by the despicable 'liberal' fake news source the NYT. Inspiring stuff by the end actually.

Gosh, I hope you're being facetious on the whole despicable, liberal, etc. (because that shit has already gotten old).

In any case, interesting vid. Thanks. Can't wait for the (lying, slanted, piece of Nazi-ass shit) Breitbart version.:-)

Rest assured I'm kidding. I'm evil (and old) enough to have a NYT subscription for the weekend edition. They still have some of the best arts coverage you'll find in English.

TLDR, White Wolf is pretentious and Goths ruin everything, especially World of Darkness.

 I see nothing new here. Moving on.

... and LED hoola hoopers, LED art/message staff twirlers, silk aerialists, fire swallowers, sword dancers,

a child :eek: /pregnant pause (seriously people, get a fucking babysitter)

probiotic gluten-free sushi, raw food vegan adobo, free bindis...

Quote from: Opaopajr;949089probiotic gluten-free sushi

Don't be a pathetic baby Roll-Eater and you're fine. ;)

Quote from: Opaopajr;949089raw food vegan adobo

*Shudder* - some cultural appropriation should carry the death penalty...

Quote from: Opaopajr;949089free bindis...

...but that's not one of them.  Bindis for all!

Quote from: CRKrueger;948824You're not suggesting that both could be true...WW had an impact even if the ad was full of shit?  How reasonable. You're really high right now, aren't you? :D

I'm snorting them tequila fumes again!

Quote from: Marleycat;948846Then again remember my favorite game is something you hate along with this whole site.;)

Mage?

We've got plenty of Mage fans.

Quote from: Marleycat;948847I never said I hate 0/1e but I did say I prefer 2e because that's my introduction into DnD.

There isn't much difference mechanically between 0e and 2e.

Much less than oWoD vs. nWoD.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;948871Do you, or do you not, accept that Vampire broke through the mainstream and led the way for alternative games to D&D to become more accessible to an aware market?

That would not be true.

WW brought in new gamers. Those kids went to the game store. Some of them bought other RPGs.

The majority of gamers only play the biggest sellers, but pre-WW there were plenty of non-D&D and non-fantasy games with their fandoms.

CoC? Traveller? Champions? All huge sellers pre-WW. All selling as non-fantasy not-D&D.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;948907

Pics or it never happened.

Quote from: Voros;948977Why don't you two kids hug it out, then kiss and make up.

Somebody get the black lipstick!

Quote from: Voros;948982Too reasonable. Nerds have had their feelings hurt. It is Kristallnacht all over again.

That...was hysterical.

RPG and D&D mean the same thing to anyone with a 20-side die fetish.

Quote from: Spinachcat;949108That would not be true.

WW brought in new gamers. Those kids went to the game store. Some of them bought other RPGs.

The majority of gamers only play the biggest sellers, but pre-WW there were plenty of non-D&D and non-fantasy games with their fandoms.

CoC? Traveller? Champions? All huge sellers pre-WW. All selling as non-fantasy not-D&D.

Firstly, thank you for answering the question and also putting an end to the nonsense that nobody on this thread was arguing against it!

What I'd put forward at this point is that retailers accounts of game sales in the 1980s has it that AD&D/D&D accounted for about 80% of all RPG sales. So while games like Call of Cthulhu, Traveller and Champions were significant (as much as anything because they put down the markers for their respective genres), they were still collectively only occupying that fraction of game sales. The only direct sales figures that I have seen published were from GDW which basically had Classic Traveller selling about 100,000 units over their timeline (but Mega Traveller had much declining sales), Call of Cthulhu I think sold about 250,000 according to blurb on their website. I'm not sure how many Champions sold.

White Wolf, by contrast, had a 25% market share of all RPG sales at their peak. This reduced to about 20% in the 2000s, I think, but you can see the significance. Anecdotally, I can recount the experience other gamers had where it seemed like the whole hobby turned to producing 'dark' games for a while in the early 90s, while I can also recall seeing my local game store being transformed by WoD displays and books in a very short turnaround too. Vampire had a crappy Fox TV show licensed for it; it had a WWF wrestler called Gangrel pretending to be a vampire on prime-time TV, ffs. Call of Cthulhu or Traveller, which I love too btw, had strong cult followings and success but I never saw anything like that impact. Cthulhu in particular was like a slow burner that cool gamers knew about rather a blockbuster hit. They were alternatives to D&D but didn't really have any massive impact on the main****** of D&D sales in the same way that Vampire did.

Shannon Appelcline's Designer & Dragons series puts it well in several quotes:

QuoteIt wasn’t just the cover of Vampire that was startling. The entire game was different from anything seen before in the roleplaying community. In the best tradition of Anne Rice’s Interview with a Vampire (1976), White Wolf ’s new game revealed a world of politics, machinations, angst, and internal conflict. Though RPGs were already becoming more about plots and people — and less about dungeons and fighting — centering a whole game on these subjects was entirely new.

QuoteThe interest that both Wizards of the Coast and Aaron Spelling showed toward Vampire highlights White Wolf ’s position in the mid-’90s as a prime producer of intellectual property. But they weren’t just some indie idea house. Due to the great sales of their various lines, White Wolf became a top-tier RPG company. TSR was still #1, but in the few years since they’d exploded onto the scene, White Wolf Game Studio had gained considerable market share. Only Palladium and FASA were really competing with them for the #2 spot, but White Wolf consistently put out more new top sellers. By 1995 it’s fair to say that White Wolf was the #2 publisher of roleplaying games.

And it should be noted that, according to Icv2 retail figures, White Wolf held the #2 spot for the best part of two decades. That's pretty much establishing themselves in the main****** with a pretty alternative game.

EDIT: Is there something offensive in saying 'm-a-i-n-s-t-r-e-a-m', that I don't know about?!

"Politics, machinations, angst, and internal conflict" in RPGs were new in 1990 only to people who had never played Diplomacy.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;949131"Politics, machinations, angst, and internal conflict" in RPGs were new in 1990 only to people who had never played Diplomacy.

Which is your view, but I'll stress that this is not my words here that you are arguing with, or that of White Wolf's documentary, but Shannon Appelcline's in the Designer & Dragons series. You are arguing with a published RPG historian that has no personal interest or affiliation with White Wolf or Vampire.

How do you account for his words?

Oh, and of course it should be said that Diplomacy is not exactly a RPG is it?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;949131"Politics, machinations, angst, and internal conflict" in RPGs were new in 1990 only to people who had never played Diplomacy.

You're still breathing? Damn, don't you know liches are made to be killed? Look RPG's have evolved beyond what you prefer and even what I prefer in some cases. So sit down, shut up and enjoy what the kids are developing. Maybe you will actually play a game that was made beyond 1970? And actually like and support it. Personally I doubt it, but hey I give everyone a chance even old bastards.

Shannon Appelcline is well known for his ignorance of and bias against the beginnings of the hobby.

I'm sure the makers of RuneQuest, Chivalry and Sorcery, Pendragon, Harnmaster, Prince Valiant and Flashing Blades to name but a few would be surprised to find out that their game wasn't concerned with Politics, Machinations and Internal Conflict.  Jesus Christ, that's what all of Greg Stafford's games have been about since 1978.

There's not a single thing about Vampire that was new.  They did nothing first, but they blended all the influences into a very attractive and different seeming whole, at just the right time.

Were they influential in the broader culture? Sure.  Without Vampire and the World of Darkness I honestly doubt you're going to have Twilight, True Blood, Dresden Files, Anita Blake, Underworld, or any of the other "modern world with secret societies of supernatural creatures that all coexist in a cold war while at the same time having their own high-school clique divisions".

Did they bring in new players, especially women? Sure.

Did they influence other game designers? Sure.  They are almost single-handedly responsible for Ron Edwards and the Forge.

Did they rock the 90's? Sure.  All the metaplot heavy games did.  Shadowrun, Deadlands, L5R all had either novel series, cardgames or both as tie-ins as well to extend the metaplot, just like WW did, and they bounced around the #3 slot.  WoD definitely had an advantage in that they had multiple gamelines, and multiple time eras all joining the massive metaplot.

There are plenty of accomplishments to congratulate Vampire and the World of Darkness for, unfortunately none of them are the claims from the ad. ;)

Quote from: Marleycat;949134You're still breathing? Damn, don't you know liches are made to be killed? Look RPG's have evolved beyond what you prefer and even what I prefer in some cases. So sit down, shut up and enjoy what the kids are developing. Maybe you will actually play a game that was made beyond 1970? And actually like and support it. Personally I doubt it, but hey I give everyone a chance even old bastards.

Gronan played Dungeon World, he's not entirely fossilized yet. :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;949156Shannon Appelcline is well known for his ignorance of and bias against the beginnings of the hobby.

I'm sure the makers of RuneQuest, Chivalry and Sorcery, Pendragon, Harnmaster, Prince Valiant and Flashing Blades to name but a few would be surprised to find out that their game wasn't concerned with Politics, Machinations and Internal Conflict.  Jesus Christ, that's what all of Greg Stafford's games have been about since 1978.

There's not a single thing about Vampire that was new.  They did nothing first, but they blended all the influences into a very attractive and different seeming whole, at just the right time.

Were they influential in the broader culture? Sure.  Without Vampire and the World of Darkness I honestly doubt you're going to have Twilight, True Blood, Dresden Files, Anita Blake, Underworld, or any of the other "modern world with secret societies of supernatural creatures that all coexist in a cold war while at the same time having their own high-school clique divisions".

Did they bring in new players, especially women? Sure.

Did they influence other game designers? Sure.  They are almost single-handedly responsible for Ron Edwards and the Forge.

Did they rock the 90's? Sure.  All the metaplot heavy games did.  Shadowrun, Deadlands, L5R all had either novel series, cardgames or both as tie-ins as well to extend the metaplot, just like WW did, and they bounced around the #3 slot.  WoD definitely had an advantage in that they had multiple gamelines, and multiple time eras all joining the massive metaplot.

There are plenty of accomplishments to congratulate Vampire and the World of Darkness for, unfortunately none of them are the claims from the ad. ;)

Shannon Appelcline's favourite games include RuneQuest and Pendragon (he doesn't like Vampire or the horror genre generally). He's written articles and reviews and interviewed Greg Stafford about them. This notion that you're pushing that he is somehow bias towards White Wolf is totally wrong.

Greg Stafford actually publishes his Pendragon game with the co-founder of White Wolf games these days too, so I'm sure I too would be interested in what he has to say about White Wolf's achievements. Actually, for that matter I would also add that both Sandy Peterson and even Gary Gygax have singled out Vampire, in interviews, as being the one game they have taken note of beyond their own creations. Sandy Peterson singled out the interest of political play in Vampire, and Gary Gygax about the attraction of female gamers to LARP.

White Wolf didn't 'bounce around the #3 slot' either. It established itself as the consistent #2 with 25% of the market share.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949132Which is your view, but I'll stress that this is not my words here that you are arguing with, or that of White Wolf's documentary, but Shannon Appelcline's in the Designer & Dragons series. You are arguing with a published RPG historian that has no personal interest or affiliation with White Wolf or Vampire.

How do you account for his words?

Oh, and of course it should be said that Diplomacy is not exactly a RPG is it?

Much as I despise the writers. Fantasy Wargaming (The RPG. Not the totally un-related wargame) was very much advocating "Politics, machinations, angst, and internal conflict" a decade before WOD.

As for Diplomacy. Its one of those oddball board games thats heavy on the player interactions, intrigues and backstabbings. Supremacy in 1984 was much the same. Not an RPG by any stretch. But the"Politics, machinations, angst, and internal conflict" are all there. Diplomacy is not known as "The Game that Destroys Friendships" for nothing. GW's Mighty Empires is another one in this genre that comes to mind.

Quote from: Marleycat;949134Maybe you will actually play a game that was made beyond 1970? And actually like and support it. Personally I doubt it, but hey I give everyone a chance even old bastards.

Um... Gronan's noted more than a few times that he plays WEG's Star Wars RPG. Thats from 84. :cool:

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949160Shannon Appelcline's favourite games include RuneQuest and Pendragon (he doesn't like Vampire or the horror genre generally). He's written articles and reviews and interviewed Greg Stafford about them. This notion that you're pushing that he is somehow bias towards White Wolf is totally wrong.

How excellent for me then, that I didn't say that.  What I did say was that he was biased against games from the early beginnings of the hobby and dismisses them.  Only someone who either was confused, ignorant or lying would claim that Vampire was the first game that centered on politics, machinations and internal conflict.  Again. Pendragon.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949160Greg Stafford actually publishes his Pendragon game with the co-founder of White Wolf games these days too, so I'm sure I too would be interested in what he has to say about White Wolf's achievements.

I'd definitely want to hear Greg Stafford be told that Prince Valiant, Pendragon and RuneQuest weren't about Politics, Relationships, Internal Conflict, etc.  

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949160Actually, for that matter I would also add that both Sandy Peterson and even Gary Gygax have singled out Vampire, in interviews, as being the one game they have taken note of beyond their own creations. Sandy Peterson singled out the interest of political play in Vampire

The political play in Vampire is definitely noteworthy and exceptional.  However it was not groundbreaking, revolutionary or first.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949160Gary Gygax about the attraction of female gamers to LARP.

Which I said myself, so...point?

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949160White Wolf didn't 'bounce around the #3 slot' either. It established itself as the consistent #2 with 25% of the market share.

I never said it bounced around the #3 slot, I said the other metaplot heavy games like L5R, Deadlands, and Shadowrun did.  Jyhad was an awesome CCG, I loved that game, but L5R sold way more cards though, and for a long time Shadowrun sold more novels, as well as console games, etc.

I don't know why you can't accept the influences without fetishizing on the non-existent revolutionary firsts, I hope for christ sake it's not some political ideology thing, that would be sad.

Quote from: Omega;949161Much as I despise the writers. Fantasy Wargaming (The RPG. Not the totally un-related wargame) was very much advocating "Politics, machinations, angst, and internal conflict" a decade before WOD.

As for Diplomacy. Its one of those oddball board games thats heavy on the player interactions, intrigues and backstabbings. Supremacy in 1984 was much the same. Not an RPG by any stretch. But the"Politics, machinations, angst, and internal conflict" are all there. Diplomacy is not known as "The Game that Destroys Friendships" for nothing. GW's Mighty Empires is another one in this genre that comes to mind.

As I said before, Diplomacy isn't a RPG so it's a slightly bizarre comparison to be asserting a game that does not involve roleplaying at all somehow beat WW to the punch.

Anyway, the claim isn't that Vampire actually did anything new - although there is still plenty of original ideas in it - but that it made what was considered to be alternative, into something that was mains-t-r-e-a-m. It wasn't even their own first venture into storytelling - Ars Magica (albeit technically from Lion Rampant before it came to White Wolf) came before Vampire too. It's just that Vampire brought all this stuff together into a hugely commercial success.

With respect to Fantasy Wargaming, I doubt anybody could really claim it did that.

Quote from: Omega;949161Much as I despise the writers.

Hm, I know nothing about the writers. Why do you despise them?

Quote from: CRKrueger;949165How excellent for me then, that I didn't say that.  What I did say was that he was biased against games from the early beginnings of the hobby and dismisses them.  Only someone who either was confused, ignorant or lying would claim that Vampire was the first game that centered on politics, machinations and internal conflict.  Again. Pendragon.

I'd definitely want to hear Greg Stafford be told that Prince Valiant, Pendragon and RuneQuest weren't about Politics, Relationships, Internal Conflict, etc.  

The political play in Vampire is definitely noteworthy and exceptional.  However it was not groundbreaking, revolutionary or first.

Which I said myself, so...point?

I never said it bounced around the #3 slot, I said the other metaplot heavy games like L5R, Deadlands, and Shadowrun did.  Jyhad was an awesome CCG, I loved that game, but L5R sold way more cards though, and for a long time Shadowrun sold more novels, as well as console games, etc.

I don't know why you can't accept the influences without fetishizing on the non-existent revolutionary firsts, I hope for christ sake it's not some political ideology thing, that would be sad.

Well considering that I haven't actually argued anything along the lines to what you have said here, you may want to simply answer your own points by reading what I have actually been arguing.

I have been consistently saying that Vampire merely brought together a lot of ideas into successful whole - not that it had somehow invented Politics in RPGs. However, like Sandy Peterson I do think it had a lot of interesting ideas that explored that sort of thing in depth and pushed it to the forefront in a tightly successful game. Nobody is dissing on RuneQuest, Pendragon or Prince Valiant either. Stewart Wieck publishes Pendragon and Prince Valiant these days, citing them as major influences on Vampire. Rein-Hagen cited RuneQuest, Call of Cthulhu, Shadowrun et al as influences in the Vampire game itself, and promoted the Guide to Glorantha in their Kickstarter campaign.  

Neither Deadlands or L5R, actually came close to the market share of White Wolf games. They were successful insofar that they created enough of a niche to sell over the 'breakthrough' level of 5000 units or so, and maintained a cult following. Both games were fairly well influenced in their design approach by Vampire it has to be said also. Shadowrun sold more, but still not as much as White Wolf games did. That goes for other media too.

It wasn't you who quoted Shannon Appelcline to support the notion that Vampire was the first game to be about politics, machinations and internal conflict?  Your name sure looks like it's your post to me.

Or are you now claiming it was the first game to do that AND be #2?

Trippy, I'll ask you the same kind of question you wanted others to answer...

Yes or no...
Based on the nature of the Pendragon RPG and that it was published six years before Vampire, do you claim that Shannon Appelcline's assessment that Vampire centering the game on the subjects of politics, machinations and internal conflict was entirely new is correct?

Fucking vampires.

[video=youtube;EdIMx_1OEww]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdIMx_1OEww[/youtube]

Quote from: Omega;949027Thought Darkkon was about LARPing?

Yes it is.

QuoteOne of the more interesting RPG documentaries I've seen was "The Dungeons & Dragons Experience" which was done back in the 80s or 90s and is overall D&D centric. But covers other media as well. Interesting takes on the industry and gaming styles. The Traveler TV show though is still going nowhere.

I'll have to look up the D&D Experience; sounds familiar but not certain if I've seen it. I had no idea there were any plans for a Traveller TV  show. I'd heard years ago about plans for a Knights of the Dinner Table TV show, and saw a short sample, that was really bad, but I guess that never came to anything. Harmonquest was rather fun, though.

Quote from: Voros;949024Yeah I was wondering the same. Couldn't make it through the dreck of The Dwarvenaut.

By far the best I've seen is this short one by the despicable 'liberal' fake news source the NYT. Inspiring stuff by the end actually.

That was good, but yeah, far too short.

Quote from: CRKrueger;949171It wasn't you who quoted Shannon Appelcline to support the notion that Vampire was the first game to be about politics, machinations and internal conflict?  Your name sure looks like it's your post to me.

Or are you now claiming it was the first game to do that AND be #2?

It doesn't say it was the first game to be about politics, machinations and internal conflict. It says "White Wolf ’s new game revealed a world of politics, machinations, angst, and internal conflict." That's a misquote from you, and quite a different statement.

Quote from: CRKrueger;949172Trippy, I'll ask you the same kind of question you wanted others to answer...

Yes or no...
Based on the nature of the Pendragon RPG and that it was published six years before Vampire, do you claim that Shannon Appelcline's assessment that Vampire centering the game on the subjects of politics, machinations and internal conflict was entirely new is correct?

Pendragon actually still centres upon going off on knightly adventures, albeit in romantic long term campaigns, but there isn't really much angst in it and the politics are more of chivalrous matter than for long term clandestine plotting against each other. It's not a particularly political game.

But as stated now (several times) Pendragon is considered by White Wolf themselves to be an important influence on Vampire and nobody, including Shannon Appecline is claiming that Vampire reinvented everything in gaming. Again, his actual full comments were:

QuoteWhite Wolf ’s new game revealed a world of politics, machinations, angst, and internal conflict. Though RPGs were already becoming more about plots and people — and less about dungeons and fighting — centering a whole game on these subjects was entirely new.

You are misrepresenting what he said.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949186Pendragon actually still centres upon going off on knightly adventures, albeit in romantic long term campaigns, but there isn't really much angst in it and the politics are more of chivalrous matter than for long term clandestine plotting against each other. But as stated now (several times) Pendragon is considered by White Wolf themselves to be an important influence on Vampire and nobody, including Shannon Appecline is claiming that Vampire reinvented everything in gaming. Again, his actual comments were:



You are misrepresenting what he said.

So Vampire was the first RPG to center on plots and people?  That's the claim you're supporting now?  That's even more ridiculous on it's face.  I was being kind in assuming he was talking about politics, machinations and internal conflict.  To claim Vampire is the first RPG to center on plots and people is just sheer idiocy.

For someone who supposedly doesn't support all the claims of Vampire firsts, you sure are spending a lot of time supporting claims of Vampire firsts.

Quote from: CRKrueger;949187So Vampire was the first RPG to center on plots and people?  That's the claim you're supporting now?  That's even more ridiculous on it's face.  I was being kind in assuming he was talking about politics, machinations and internal conflict.  To claim Vampire is the first RPG to center on plots and people is just sheer idiocy.

It says:

"Though RPGs were already becoming more about plots and people — and less about dungeons and fighting — centering a whole game on these subjects was entirely new."

So, in fact, it is citing that other games were already becoming more about those subjects. And no, Pendragon was not as centred on those subjects because the thrust of the game was still on adventuring and accumulating Glory in a fantasy world. It wasn't the whole game, merely an aspect of it.

QuoteFor someone who supposedly doesn't support all the claims of Vampire firsts, you sure are spending a lot of time supporting claims of Vampire firsts.

You appear to be spending an inordinate amount of your own time misquoting, presenting a straw man about arguments that haven't been made and now attempting an ad hominem to boot.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949188It says:

"Though RPGs were already becoming more about plots and people — and less about dungeons and fighting — centering a whole game on these subjects was entirely new."

So, in fact, it is citing that other games were already becoming more about those subjects. And no, Pendragon was not as centred on those subjects because the thrust of the game was still on adventuring and accumulating Glory in a fantasy world. It wasn't the whole game, merely an aspect of it.

You appear to be spending an inordinate amount of your own time misquoting, presenting a straw man about arguments that haven't been made and now attempting an ad hominem to boot.

So your contention is that Pendragon as a game wasn't centered on plots and people?  Not centered on the plots of the tales of Mallory nor centered on the people involved?  Not centered on the politics of King Arthur's Court, not centered on the machinations of various NPCs, not centered on internal conflict as expressed through the personality mechanics of virtues and how the characters as knights were personally challenged by conflicting loyalties and virtues?  None of that was central, huh? REALLY?  What was it centered on, The Joust?  Come on.

In fact, what Shannon said was completely ignoring Pendragon and many other games.  What he said makes sense only in the context of being compared only to D&D, just like the ad, which of course is the exact objection many people are making in this thread.   In the context of the actual history of RPGs, including the self-admitted influence of such games on Vampire itself, the claims made by the ad and the quote you listed are at best ignorant, at worst laughable.

Quote from: CRKrueger;949192So your contention is that Pendragon as a game wasn't centered on plots and people?

No, my contention is that you misquoted to start with, then shifted your goalposts after it was pointed out, have tried ad hominem on both Shannon Appelcline and myself while engaging in a straw man argument that amounts to a sideshow against what was really being argued, actually....but I'll let this slide for now.

QuoteNot centered on the plots of the tales of Mallory nor centered on the people involved?  Not centered on the politics of King Arthur's Court, not centered on the machinations of various NPCs, not centered on internal conflict as expressed through the personality mechanics of virtues and how the characters as knights were personally challenged by conflicting loyalties and virtues?  None of that was central, huh? REALLY?  What was it centered on, The Joust?  Come on.

The central drive of the game in Pendragon was to tell stories based on gaining Glory. It was still set in a fantasy world, like D&D, albeit one with a heavily researched literary source. It had personality mechanics, which actually came from a RuneQuest source, while the game was still essentially based upon violent conflict, battle and adventuring.

In Vampire, the combat system didn't really work well anyway and only occupied a handful of pages in the rules. The basic idea was about social conflict, in a political sense. Characters often had conflicting motives and hidden agenda, while the personality mechanics drove personal goals that were not necessarily about garnering any material wealth or glory at all. It forced plots and people to the centre of the game's experience, and even suggested you try it out as a LARP experience.

QuoteIn fact, what Shannon said was completely ignoring Pendragon and many other games.  What he said makes sense only in the context of being compared only to D&D, just like the ad, which of course is the exact objection many people are making in this thread.   In the context of the actual history of RPGs, including the self-admitted influence of such games on Vampire itself, the claims made by the ad and the quote you listed are at best ignorant, at worst laughable.

"In fact". That's a misrepresentation right there. In fact, Shannon Appelcline wrote the essay for Pendragon being one of the 'Hobby Games: The 100 Best' nominated in that Green Ronin publication. If you want to read his thoughts about why Pendragon is the best RPG in his view, and why it is significant, then feel free. But in this instance, he's not talking about Pendragon or making any disparagement on any other game. He is merely talking about Vampire: The Masquerade and what it is, in his view, that is significant about it.

Like the Documentary-ad, if you are a person that finds his comments about the game offensive then it says more about your own issues with the game than anything objectively factual.

So your answer is Yes, you truly believe Vampire the first rpg to center on plots, people, politics, machinations and internal conflict?

Angst I'll actually give you.

Heh, I'm just going to leave this here:

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-xnhm_fSiz04/Te7iIyFPAuI/AAAAAAAADQk/Cpx4q61LzSo/s1600/dallas.JPG)

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949197In Vampire, the combat system didn't really work well anyway and only occupied a handful of pages in the rules. The basic idea was about social conflict, in a political sense. Characters often had conflicting motives and hidden agenda, while the personality mechanics drove personal goals that were not necessarily about garnering any material wealth or glory at all. It forced plots and people to the centre of the game's experience, and even suggested you try it out as a LARP experience.

Conflicting motives and hidden agendas sounds a lot like Paranoia, another game that predated Vampire by several years.

I'm inclined to agree with others that Vampire was a game where none of the parts that comprise it were original (where I mean the influences not the particular implementation of those ideas). However, that particular assembly of parts was original. The fact that Vampire became so successful and influential on other media is what marks it as an important game of the 90s.

Anyway, here is my list of the influences on Vampire IMO (not exhaustive):

Vampire lore: Anne Rice's vampire books
Monsters as RPG protagonists: Nightlife RPG, Trollpak (RuneQuest)
Richly detailed monster society: Trollpak, Glorantha/RuneQuest in general
Dice pool system: Primarily Shadowrun which owed a lot to Ghostbusters and Star Wars before it
Nature/Demeanour: Probably Personality Traits in Pendragon (which first appeared as a RuneQuest article in Different Worlds magazine)
Clans (PC Factions): Most directly from Order of Hermes (Jonathan Tweet's supplement for his and Mark Rein*Hagen's game Ars Magica) which I think might have itself been inspired by the cults in RuneQuest.
City based environment as a collection of important NPCs rather than locations: Carl Sargent's WFRP adventure Power Behind the Throne.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949200Heh, I'm just going to leave this here:

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-xnhm_fSiz04/Te7iIyFPAuI/AAAAAAAADQk/Cpx4q61LzSo/s1600/dallas.JPG)

Heh, nice way to end your own thread.

Quote from: Voros;949049Rest assured I'm kidding. I'm evil (and old) enough to have a NYT subscription for the weekend edition. They still have some of the best arts coverage you'll find in English.

Well, somebody gotta be on the dark side, right?:-D

Speaking of:

 Regarding Big Green's comment -- and not trying to get into Gronan's favorite thing: definitions :-) -- if you think about it, combining various elements into something else sorta qualifies it as is own thing. A deconstructed Reuben sandwich isn't still the same sandwich.  BUT...

I don't know whether it matters if Vampire did anything truly "new." It definitely seemed different from what I was personally used to, so, to me, it might as well have been a new thing.

Quote from: cranebump;949203I don't know whether it matters if Vampire did anything truly "new." It definitely seemed different from what I was personally used to, so, to me, it might as well have been a new thing.

The thing is, people aren't saying just that Vampire was different, you're getting all these quotes that say they were the first to do X, before Vampire no one did Y, etc.  That's just patently false in every quote in the ad and the Appelcline paragraph.  

Yeah the recipe for your crazyass new Salsa is new.  But you're not the first one to use tomatos, onions, peppers, or cilantro in salsa.  It might be a great recipe, but get the fuck over yourself already. :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;949205The thing is, people aren't saying just that Vampire was different, you're getting all these quotes that say they were the first to do X, before Vampire no one did Y, etc.  That's just patently false in every quote in the ad and the Appelcline paragraph.  

Yeah the recipe for your crazyass new Salsa is new.  But you're not the first one to use tomatos, onions, peppers, or cilantro in salsa.  It might be a great recipe, but get the fuck over yourself already. :D

Hey, you should taste my salsa before you say that, man.:-)

Vampire used to be awesome, but then Revised Edition happened and it all went to shit.

The problem is that Ericsson and the new White Wolf are pandering to the toxic and pretentious Goth fans who essentially ruined Vampire and killed White Wolf.

Quote from: CRKrueger;949199So your answer is Yes, you truly believe Vampire the first rpg to center on plots, people, politics, machinations and internal conflict?

Angst I'll actually give you.

QuoteThe thing is, people aren't saying just that Vampire was different, you're getting all these quotes that say they were the first to do X, before Vampire no one did Y, etc. That's just patently false in every quote in the ad and the Appelcline paragraph.

Hey, here's an idea! Rather than just making up in your head what people have said, or misquoting them, why don't you bother to actually read what people say and respond to that instead! ;)

Quote from: cranebump;949203Well, somebody gotta be on the dark side, right?:-D

Speaking of:

 Regarding Big Green's comment -- and not trying to get into Gronan's favorite thing: definitions :-) -- if you think about it, combining various elements into something else sorta qualifies it as is own thing. A deconstructed Reuben sandwich isn't still the same sandwich.  BUT...

I don't know whether it matters if Vampire did anything truly "new." It definitely seemed different from what I was personally used to, so, to me, it might as well have been a new thing.

Which was pretty much the case with everybody who experienced it, if they are being honest. It created an impact, because of this.

Quote from: yojimbouk;949201Conflicting motives and hidden agendas sounds a lot like Paranoia, another game that predated Vampire by several years.

I'm inclined to agree with others that Vampire was a game where none of the parts that comprise it were original (where I mean the influences not the particular implementation of those ideas). However, that particular assembly of parts was original. The fact that Vampire became so successful and influential on other media is what marks it as an important game of the 90s.

Anyway, here is my list of the influences on Vampire IMO (not exhaustive):

Vampire lore: Anne Rice's vampire books
Monsters as RPG protagonists: Nightlife RPG, Trollpak (RuneQuest)
Richly detailed monster society: Trollpak, Glorantha/RuneQuest in general
Dice pool system: Primarily Shadowrun which owed a lot to Ghostbusters and Star Wars before it
Nature/Demeanour: Probably Personality Traits in Pendragon (which first appeared as a RuneQuest article in Different Worlds magazine)
Clans (PC Factions): Most directly from Order of Hermes (Jonathan Tweet's supplement for his and Mark Rein*Hagen's game Ars Magica) which I think might have itself been inspired by the cults in RuneQuest.
City based environment as a collection of important NPCs rather than locations: Carl Sargent's WFRP adventure Power Behind the Throne.

Nobody is actually claiming that Vampire had no influences or arrived in a vacuum. And while people keep trying to cite earlier games as having 'done it first', they continue to miss the point: Vampire took a load of these ideas from different sources and collected them all into in a single, highly commercially successful product that was different to what other people had experienced before and kicked off a new trend in gaming. They made the alternative, mainstream.

True originality is near impossible, one can alwayps dig up a predecessor and influence on any game or artwork for that matter.

By that standard one would never be able to declare anything 'original.' Jon Petersen shows in Playing the World how D&D is a conglomeration of other games, role playing mini-games and influences. Does that mean that we should pedantically pick apart someone saying that D&D was 'original'?

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949231Hey, here's an idea! Rather than just making up in your head what people have said, or misquoting them, why don't you bother to actually read what people say and respond to that instead! ;)

For a guy who whines about not getting a Yes or No answer, you sure are dancing to not have to give one yourself.

So you DON'T think Vampire was the first RPG to center on plots, people, politics, machinations, and internal conflict.

Kind of interesting considering recent posting history, but at least now you're actually correct.

S'ok man, not everyone has the guts to man up and admit they overstated things a little on the internet. ;)

Quote from: Voros;949238True originality is near impossible, one can always did up a predecessor and influence on any game or artwork for that matter.

By that standard one would never be able to declare anything 'original.' Jon Petersen shows in Playing the World how D&D is a conglomeration of other games, role playing mini-games and influences. Does that mean that we should pedantically pick apart someone saying that D&D was 'original'?

On the internet? Absolutely! Otherwise what else would be do? :D

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949232Which was pretty much the case with everybody who experienced it, if they are being honest. It created an impact, because of this.

That impact was pretty negative where I was. The fucking antics of Vampire LARPers managed to shut down conventions in the Seattle and Sea-Tac area. Nobody paid any attention to the Tabletop Game during that time.

Quote from: Voros;949238True originality is near impossible, one can always did up a predecessor and influence on any game or artwork for that matter.

By that standard one would never be able to declare anything 'original.' Jon Petersen shows in Playing the World how D&D is a conglomeration of other games, role playing mini-games and influences. Does that mean that we should pedantically pick apart someone saying that D&D was 'original'?

There's a difference between praising Star Wars as a unique movie and claiming that before Star Wars there were no films that had space ships or until Star Wars came along, no one had rescued princesses.

It's not the parts that were different or new, it was the SUM of those parts.  So why do people keep making false statements claiming the parts were Firsts?

In the movie and book worlds, people don't do that, because they are rightly mocked by everyone who knows better, instead the craftsmanship in using the elements is celebrated.  Fandom, however, has to always live by the Hype Machine.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949233kicked off a new trend in gaming. They made the alternative, mainstream.

Sweet Christ.  Yes, they brought in some new people, and the success of every game in the industry helped take things mainstream.  WEG Star Wars defined the Expanded Universe and Star Wars is more mainstream than anything.

Where are the mentions of Vampire in E.T.,  Community, Big Bang Theory, Stranger Things?  Where's the Vin Diesels, Martin Shorts, Stephen Colberts?  Where the Critical Role: Vampire?

That's the biggest load of horseshit being peddled here, that RPGs were nothing but geek kids until Vampire brought in the cool adults.  What happened was, all the people who played D&D in the 70's, 80's and 90's grew up.

If you must point to any one thing that took RPGs into the mainstream, it was videogames.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949132Which is your view, but I'll stress that this is not my words here that you are arguing with, or that of White Wolf's documentary, but Shannon Appelcline's in the Designer & Dragons series. You are arguing with a published RPG historian that has no personal interest or affiliation with White Wolf or Vampire.

How do you account for his words?

Oh, and of course it should be said that Diplomacy is not exactly a RPG is it?

I'm arguing with your quote, yes.  Applecline is full of shit.

Diplomacy is not an RPG, but it was played extensively by the first generation of RPGers, which meant we had "politics, machinations, angst, and internal confilict" a plenty.

I largely see the WoD crowd as the forebearers of the modern "geek chic" crowd, e.g.  "Boy, this geek stuff is cool if we could just drive all these filthy geeks out of it."

That sounds like you have a false sense of ownership over 'geek culture.' Just because one is a geek doesn't mean you have to embrace every aspect of an often self-important subculture. Everyone has a right to like what they like, they don't need your or anyone's permission or 'prove' their geek credentials.

Quote from: CRKrueger;949273That's the biggest load of horseshit being peddled here, that RPGs were nothing but geek kids until Vampire brought in the cool adults.  What happened was, all the people who played D&D in the 70's, 80's and 90's grew up.

If you must point to any one thing that took RPGs into the mainstream, it was videogames.

Exactly, Vampire did bring in new people to the hobby but the majority were those who played D&D and wanted to try something different. At the time it was easier to get those who had never played an RPG to try a vampire-themed game over a game of elves and hobbits (I mean halflings). Course now with LOTR and Game of Thrones, plus a gazillion video games that is far from true these days.

Quote from: Voros;949283That sounds like you have a false sense of ownership over 'geek culture.' Just because one is a geek doesn't mean you have to embrace every aspect of an often self-important subculture. Everyone has a right to like what they like, they don't need your or anyone's permission or 'prove' their geek credentials.

I don't believe in geek culture.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949293I don't believe in geek culture.

Same here

Quote from: Doc Sammy;949294Same here

I did at first but I made my Saving Throw!

(See, D and D so prevalent most gamers, even many that have never played D and D will get that, IME!)

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949293I don't believe in geek culture.

Neither do I.

Quote from: Nexus;949296I did at first but I made my Saving Throw!

 Haha :D

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949293I don't believe in geek culture.

I didn't either until I was thrown out of it.  :D

Super-serious question that may or may not be appropriate to this thread because I don't want to derail it: is there a legitimate reason I should dislike Onyx Path?  I've seen some negative comments about them upthread.

The main reason to dislike a company is if they produce shitty content, wouldn't you say? Certainly really toxic views could sway one's purchases but if we only bought from those we agree with politically where would that land us?

Quote from: noman;949305is there a legitimate reason I should dislike Onyx Path?  I've seen some negative comments about them upthread.

afaik, a lot of bitterness just comes from the close ties between the company and the big purple mods. I'm not certain I've ever even seen one of their games.

edit: oh, wait, is this the company doing the 20th anniversary versions of the owod games and inserting a bunch of SJW virtue signalling?

Quote from: Voros;949308The main reason to dislike a company is if they produce shitty content, wouldn't you say? Certainly really toxic views could sway one's purchases but if we only bought from those we agree with politically where would that land us?

Agreed.  I'm not interested in a company's politics so long as they don't try to force them into my life.  I'm asking out of curiosity.  I'm looking at buying some NWOD, and I haven't followed those game lines since the turn of this century.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949167Hm, I know nothing about the writers. Why do you despise them?

They copped an arrogant "You unwashed masses have been playing WRONG and we are here to enlighten you with our godlike wisdom." and the whole "All those fantasy writers were doing it WRONG WRONG WRONG! and we are here to enlighten you with our godlike wisdom." And then ignoring their own godlike wisdom and just doing the same-ol-same-ol. The core idea was actually rather interesting and well presented once you got past the pissing on everyone else sections. But then they veer off and the end result is proto-Warhammer or Furry Outlaws with more freaky (pathetic) monsters. More historically accurate than WHFRP but much less that FO.

But its one of those early RPGs to actually tell the GM to encourage the players/PCs squabble, plot and infight amongst themselves and if they dont then take over their characters and MAKE them do it. Long before WOD.

Bunnies and Burrows of all things was promoting character interaction way back in 76. Long before Leeches and Lupines ever existed.

Quote from: Voros;949308The main reason to dislike a company is if they produce shitty content, wouldn't you say?

Not really, I'm kind of apathetic about it. 99% of RPG material produced is stuff I'm not interested in, but I don't hold that against a company or the fans. I just assume not everyone has the same tastes as I.

QuoteCertainly really toxic views could sway one's purchases but if we only bought from those we agree with politically where would that land us?

Politics arent a factor for me unless the company makes it a factor by using their products as a means to proselytize. Except in extreme examples such as, say, a vocal racist who makes a fantasy game thats based around his odious beliefs...

Business ethics would be the only real factor outside of my personal interests that would sway my choice in purchases.

I do see they are working with Nocturnal Media (Greg Stafford's new publisher for Pendragon and Prince Valiant) to convert Scarred Lands to 5e.

Quote from: CRKrueger;949199So your answer is Yes, you truly believe Vampire the first rpg to center on plots, people, politics, machinations and internal conflict?

Angst I'll actually give you.

Fantasy Wargaming beat WOD on the angst too.

WOD isnt even the first "play monsters" RPG.

Quote from: Omega;949312The core idea was actually rather interesting and well presented once you got past the pissing on everyone else sections.

We must be talking about different games. The Fantasy Wargaming I have is a hodge-podge of interesting historical ideas that is pretty much unplayable as written.

Wouldn't the first 'play the monsters' RPG be Ken St. Andre's Monsters! Monsters! for T&T?

OT: Gygax's page long explanation for why one shouldn't play monsters in the AD&D DMG is pretty hilarious.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949293I don't believe in geek culture.

Wait... There is a culture for biting the heads off snakes? :eek:

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949318We must be talking about different games. The Fantasy Wargaming I have is a hodge-podge of interesting historical ideas that is pretty much unplayable as written.

I said the core idea was. Not the actual mechanics. They arent bad. But they are functional in a rather amaturish way. I've got a rather scathing review up here and RPGG.

Quote from: Omega;949320Wait... There is a culture for biting the heads off snakes? :eek:

There is now that you've asked about it online along with at least one web forum and wiki devoted to it and several porn sites (amateur and professional). And calling it weird will get you red texted on TBP for a group attack.

Quote from: Voros;949319Wouldn't the first 'play the monsters' RPG be Ken St. Andre's Monsters! Monsters! for T&T?

OT: Gygax's page long explanation for why one shouldn't play monsters in the AD&D DMG is pretty hilarious.

Probably. That came out in 76. Though OD&D itself does have rules for playing monsters and how to limit them I believe?

Quote from: Nexus;949323There is now that you've asked about it online along with at least one web forum and wiki devoted to it and several porn sites (amateur and professional). And calling it weird will get you red texted on TBP for a group attack.

Damn! And I just got done with a week ban on BGG for calling out a SJW troll. sigh...

Quote from: Omega;949320Wait... There is a culture for biting the heads off snakes? :eek:

oh, I believe in Carnie culture.

"One of us! oNE OF US! Geeble-gobble, geeble-Gobble!"

Quote from: Omega;949320Wait... There is a culture for biting the heads off snakes? :eek:

Has anyone ever made an RPG based on carnies? Nightmare Alley, Freaks, World of Wonders (Robertson Davies) and of course Carny (Busey, Foster) seem full of potential. Ravenloft did release a Carnival themed boxset during the 2e days.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]721[/ATTACH]

Oh thats the next WOD book.

Carny: The Geeking... :rolleyes:

Probably be hard to pull off without some PC freakouts (see what I did there). Even if done sympathetically I can already hear the 'critiques' about the 'problematic' content.

Quote from: Voros;949334Probably be hard to pull off without some PC freakouts (see what I did there). Even if done sympathetically I can already hear the 'critiques' about the 'problematic' content.

What won't prompt that these days except maybe Dudebro: the Privileging?

Quote from: Nexus;949337What won't prompt that these days except maybe CisHetwhiteguy: the Privileging?

heh, that could make for an amazingly fun subversive game. Stats based on your social disadvantages, Virtue points, an Offense meter...

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949338heh, that could make for an amazingly fun subversive game. Stats based on your social disadvantages, Virtue points, an Offense meter...

Desborough probably would have written it by now if it wasn't guaranteed to be pulled from OBS.

Quote from: Voros;949283That sounds like you have a false sense of ownership over 'geek culture.' Just because one is a geek doesn't mean you have to embrace every aspect of an often self-important subculture. Everyone has a right to like what they like, they don't need your or anyone's permission or 'prove' their geek credentials.

You've got it precisely backwards. The only "gatekeepers" are self-righteous ass hats making endless pronouncements about what you should and should not believe/do/say in order to be accepted. Used to be all you had to do was like games.

The only people I've ever seen "kicked out" of anything geek related have been harmless fat socially retarded neck-beards for stepping afoul of some social "rule" the anointed just discovered 13 seconds ago to inflate their own unearned moral superiority.

Same thing happened with the atheism community. It used to be all you had to do was not believe in gods. Then a bunch of jack-offs came along and tried to throw everyone out that didn't toe the new "progressive" Atheism+ line, all the while screeching to the old crowd they were the ones keeping people out. Fuckers.

EDIT: The connection to the WoD crowd ought to be obvious. "We're the real ROLE-players, not like you silly little ROLL-players."

Quote from: Voros;949005Yeah people losing their shit on the net because of a trailer, they're the adults.

Who ya gonna call?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;949018* stations bucket brigade of holy water covering the exits (vampires, after all) *
* sets thread on fire *

Champagne Showers!! (Jesus shows up at 5:02 to defeat the vampire strippers)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA8rcLvS1BY

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949125Firstly, thank you for answering the question and also putting an end to the nonsense that nobody on this thread was arguing against it!

You're very welcome!!

And enjoy your Tristram / CRK teabagging!

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949125EDIT: Is there something offensive in saying 'm-a-i-n-s-t-r-e-a-m', that I don't know about?!

I saw that too! Why is main****** showing up?

Weird.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949132Which is your view, but I'll stress that this is not my words here that you are arguing with, or that of White Wolf's documentary, but Shannon Appelcline's in the Designer & Dragons series. You are arguing with a published RPG historian that has no personal interest or affiliation with White Wolf or Vampire.

How do you account for his words?

Shannon Appelcline has always been full of shit and ridiculous biased. But water is still wet. News at 11.

Might as well ask RPGPundit to document the history of the Forge.

It might even have more facts, and definitely way more fun to read.

Quote from: CRKrueger;949157Gronan played Dungeon World, he's not entirely fossilized yet. :D

Is that why his pee hole tastes different?

Quote from: Omega;949161Diplomacy is not known as "The Game that Destroys Friendships" for nothing.

So damn true.

And a session of Diplomacy has FAR more roleplaying happening than an Adventurer's League or Pathfinder Society event.

Quote from: CRKrueger;949165I'd definitely want to hear Greg Stafford be told that Prince Valiant, Pendragon and RuneQuest weren't about Politics, Relationships, Internal Conflict, etc.

Get Greg a RPG.net account and a spare 15 minutes.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949166It's just that Vampire brought all this stuff together into a hugely commercial success.

This is very true and its why WW deserves its accolades and legacy.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949181I had no idea there were any plans for a Traveller TV  show.

It was called Firefly...

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949197In Vampire, the combat system didn't really work well anyway and only occupied a handful of pages in the rules. The basic idea was about social conflict, in a political sense. Characters often had conflicting motives and hidden agenda, while the personality mechanics drove personal goals that were not necessarily about garnering any material wealth or glory at all. It forced plots and people to the centre of the game's experience, and even suggested you try it out as a LARP experience.

Vampire combat works fine. Katana in one hand, Uzi in the other, trenchcoat over the shoulders.

WW may have wanted V:tM to be about angsty social conflict, but at the actual table, it was Undead Paranoia for many, many gamers.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;949229Vampire used to be awesome, but then Revised Edition happened and it all went to shit.

What happened?

I only played V:tM and didn't continue with the other V editions.

Were you happy with the 20th anniversary edition?

Quote from: jeff37923;949265That impact was pretty negative where I was. The fucking antics of Vampire LARPers managed to shut down conventions in the Seattle and Sea-Tac area. Nobody paid any attention to the Tabletop Game during that time.

What happened?

We had LAPD show up a few times to our midnight LARPs. There was occasional drama, but nothing that would affect the cons.

Quote from: CRKrueger;949273Where are the mentions of Vampire in E.T.,  Community, Big Bang Theory, Stranger Things?  Where's the Vin Diesels, Martin Shorts, Stephen Colberts?  Where the Critical Role: Vampire?

Good question!!

Are there any pop culture Vampire references?

Have any of the Vamp shows over the years referenced WW stuff?

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949293I don't believe in geek culture.

But geek culture believes in you!

Quote from: Voros;949319Wouldn't the first 'play the monsters' RPG be Ken St. Andre's Monsters! Monsters! for T&T?

Yes and no.

M!M! was the first published RPG with rules for playing monsters.

The cleric class exists because somebody was playing a Vampire in an OD&D playtest.

Quote from: CRKrueger;949341Desborough probably would have written it by now if it wasn't guaranteed to be pulled from OBS.

Isn't that Grim's requirement for turning on his word processor?

Quote from: Piestrio;949346Same thing happened with the atheism community. It used to be all you had to do was not believe in gods. Then a bunch of jack-offs came along and tried to throw everyone out that didn't toe the new "progressive" Atheism+ line, all the while screeching to the old crowd they were the ones keeping people out. Fuckers.

*Fights an epic, internal battle to restrain himself from writing a wall-of-text rant the likes of which not even (non-existent) God has seen.*

*Succeeds*

I agree; this has been my experience as well.

*Pats self on back for self-restraint*

You athiests were the canary in the coal mine.  For that you have my sympathies and my thanks.

Quote from: Omega;949161Diplomacy is not known as "The Game that Destroys Friendships" for nothing.

I have only heard that since a few years back when some dickless from WoTC.. Mike Mearls maybe... went off on a fulmination about Diplomacy.

Really, if you're older than 13 or so, if you end a friendship over Diplomacy, you have a LOT worse problems than some game.

We had to ban Diplomacy from our high school gaming club...and we loved the game.

It just got too batshit too many times.

Back in the 90s, a team of GMs created a Diplomacy LARP at the LA cons that was really awesome. Each team had a King, a General, and a Courtier and only the Courtiers could wank and spank, the Generals handled the wargame and the King created the overall strategy for the team but could not be in the rooms where either the wargame happened or the wankery occurred. Instead, the kings hung out in a throne room together doing their own wankery.

Somehow the epic screwovers felt better as you had team members.

Quote from: Voros;949283That sounds like you have a false sense of ownership over 'geek culture.' Just because one is a geek doesn't mean you have to embrace every aspect of an often self-important subculture. Everyone has a right to like what they like, they don't need your or anyone's permission or 'prove' their geek credentials.

I don't wear black in the goth clubs. I just look like Robert Smith from the Cure when I go supermarket shopping past midnight. What, I get serious bedhead? My hair does interesting things on its own if left unattended...

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949309afaik, a lot of bitterness just comes from the close ties between the company and the big purple mods. I'm not certain I've ever even seen one of their games.

edit: oh, wait, is this the company doing the 20th anniversary versions of the owod games and inserting a bunch of SJW virtue signalling?

I believe Onyx Path are the ones currently fondling our precious C:20... but they were supposedly adding 20+ new kiths to round it out to an even 110, or something.
:p

Quote from: CRKrueger;949249For a guy who whines about not getting a Yes or No answer, you sure are dancing to not have to give one yourself.

So you DON'T think Vampire was the first RPG to center on plots, people, politics, machinations, and internal conflict.

Kind of interesting considering recent posting history, but at least now you're actually correct.

S'ok man, not everyone has the guts to man up and admit they overstated things a little on the internet. ;)

For a guy who likes to ape another poster's debating style by presenting a 'gotchya question' at them, you may wish to refine your skill by not basing your question on a misquote. Sorry to say, but you fucked it up.

QuoteSweet Christ. Yes, they brought in some new people, and the success of every game in the industry helped take things mainstream. WEG Star Wars defined the Expanded Universe and Star Wars is more mainstream than anything.

Where are the mentions of Vampire in E.T., Community, Big Bang Theory, Stranger Things? Where's the Vin Diesels, Martin Shorts, Stephen Colberts? Where the Critical Role: Vampire?

That's the biggest load of horseshit being peddled here, that RPGs were nothing but geek kids until Vampire brought in the cool adults. What happened was, all the people who played D&D in the 70's, 80's and 90's grew up.

If you must point to any one thing that took RPGs into the mainstream, it was videogames.

And in another top tip for you, if you wish to expose the 'myth' of geek culture, it may be worth citing things that are not predominantly about people living in geek culture. Big Bang Theory is about geeks. Stranger Things is about geeks. These things and people ARE geek culture.

And with reference to the notion that White Wolf gamers represented the adolescence of 70s/80s kids growing up in the 90s? Well it's another example of you not bothering to read, because I said that already, several pages ago.

Star Wars being mainstream had nothing to do with the licensed RPG - the movie made it mainstream and the game tapped into it's market. The transfer of Vampire to a Fox TV show, on the other hand, was from the game to the mainstream media - Vampire helped create a market that the mainstream tapped into. The only other RPG to do that previously was D&D.

And you think that video games brought tabletop RPGs into the mainstream? Strange, when most video game magazines and gamers I knew liked to push the notion that tabletop RPGs were an extinct species throughout the 90s.

Quote from: Spinachcat;949350Vampire combat works fine. Katana in one hand, Uzi in the other, trenchcoat over the shoulders.

WW may have wanted V:tM to be about angsty social conflict, but at the actual table, it was Undead Paranoia for many, many gamers.

Actually, that much is true. Our group was basically just playing a sort of street level cyberpunk with fangs for the most part. And we did manage to sort out the combat system, which largely amounted to removing the Initiative system from it and playing out actions in order of seating around the table. However, the published system had a few issues (too much pointless dice rolling) and it was still comparatively short (about 5 pages or so).

Moreover, even though it didn't get everything right, it was a game that still had the ambition to introduce the such dizzying notions of 'theme' and 'tone' to a number of gamers who hadn't considered them before.

But yeah, Gothic Paranoia, played straight and set in modern nights is about right in terms of it's game play.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949369Big Bang Theory is about geeks.

No, its a collection of 80s Hollywood stereotypes about nerds attempting to capitalize on geek chic while regurgitating the same tired sitcom cliches of the last 30 years atop an excruciating laugh track. Its appeal is to a mainstream audience who have created a fake idea of geek culture based on lowest common denominator media tropes.

QuoteStranger Things is about geeks. These things and people ARE geek culture.

No those are television shows. They don't represent "a shared history, values, and beliefs of a group from a specific location and time." You misewell claim that Conan and Masters of the Universe are evidence of a "Barbarian culture."

QuoteStar Wars being mainstream had nothing to do with the licensed RPG

Gee, who should we believe, Rolling Stone's well-cited and reasoned argument in a published piece of pop journalism or the glib dismissal of a random internet poster with a proven history of dishonesty? I wonder...

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949372Gee, who should we believe, Rolling Stone's well-cited and reasoned argument in a published piece of pop journalism or the glib dismissal of a random internet poster with a proven history of dishonesty? I wonder...

I dunno.....maybe we should just stick with the facts, like Star Wars the movie came out a decade before the RPG and was one of the biggest Box Office earners of all time?

Nah, of course it was the RPG that made Star Wars mainstream.....:p

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949372No, its a collection of 80s Hollywood stereotypes about nerds attempting to capitalize on geek chic while regurgitating the same tired sitcom cliches of the last 30 years atop an excruciating laugh track. Its appeal is to a mainstream audience who have created a fake idea of geek culture based on lowest common denominator media tropes.



No those are television shows. They don't represent "a shared history, values, and beliefs of a group from a specific location and time." You misewell claim that Conan and Masters of the Universe are evidence of a "Barbarian culture."



Gee, who should we believe, Rolling Stone's well-cited and reasoned argument in a published piece of pop journalism or the glib dismissal of a random internet poster with a proven history of dishonesty? I wonder...

This guy gets it.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949379Nah, of course it was the RPG that made Star Wars mainstream.....:p

Now you are showing yourself to be an intellectually dishonest, mealy-mouthed, spineless shitweasel. :D  The argument wasn't that the WEG RPG made Star Wars mainstream, it was that since the RPG was the foundation for so much of the Expanded Universe, it helped make RPGs themselves mainstream.  Of course you knew that, you just need to keep dancing to avoid having to man up and accept your idiocy.

BTW, you still haven't answered the question:

Was Vampire the first RPG to center on plots, or people, or politics, or relationships, or machinations, or internal conflict?  Quit hiding behind Applecline's jockstrap.  Forget what he or anyone else believes or said...

In your estimation, was it the first to center on those things, yes or no?

Since I'm sure you'll attempt to hide behind the SW argument and dodge the question, I'll ask it again to make it clear:

In your opinion, TrippyHippy, was Vampire the first RPG to center on plots, or people, or politics, or relationships, or machinations, or internal conflict? Yes or No?

Quote from: Piestrio;949346You've got it precisely backwards. The only "gatekeepers" are self-righteous ass hats making endless pronouncements about what you should and should not believe/do/say in order to be accepted. Used to be all you had to do was like games.

The only people I've ever seen "kicked out" of anything geek related have been harmless fat socially retarded neck-beards for stepping afoul of some social "rule" the anointed just discovered 13 seconds ago to inflate their own unearned moral superiority.

Same thing happened with the atheism community. It used to be all you had to do was not believe in gods. Then a bunch of jack-offs came along and tried to throw everyone out that didn't toe the new "progressive" Atheism+ line, all the while screeching to the old crowd they were the ones keeping people out. Fuckers.

I've seen some rants about "fake geek girls" and the likes, so it's not all one way, but... yeah. Most of the intolerant bullshit I've seen has come from people trying to purge the geek community of anyone who they think is too, well, geeky. Because, as near as I can tell, if they're sharing some interests with a bunch of maladjusted dorks, then that reflects poorly on them. Why, people might think that just because they play D&D and obsess over Star Wars trivia, they're not one hundred percent suave, well-groomed, sexually active Normal People (TM) with the correct, progressive opinions about everything! And that's insufferable!!! :p

Quote from: CRKrueger;949394Since I'm sure you'll attempt to hide behind the SW argument and dodge the question, I'll ask it again to make it clear:

In your opinion, TrippyHippy, was Vampire the first RPG to center on plots, or people, or politics, or relationships, or machinations, or internal conflict? Yes or No?

No.

And to return a question:

Has anybody, in your opinion, on this thread actually claimed all that? Yes or No?

I sure as hell know that I haven't.

And actually, for the sake of fuck knows what, here's another question for you?

Can you cite this marvellous original game of yours that managed to center on plots, or people, or politics, or relationships, or machinations, or internal conflict, and make it commercially successful enough to build a company with a 25% share of the RPG market from barely nothing in the space of a couple of years?

Quote from: CRKrueger;949392Was Vampire the first RPG to center on plots, or people, or politics, or relationships, or machinations, or internal conflict?  Quit hiding behind Applecline's jockstrap.  Forget what he or anyone else believes or said...

Even if you want to take Applecline seriously, Designers and Dragons is a terrible work to cite in talking about game systems. It's a history of gaming companies. It tangentially touches on the nature of the games made by companies, but only in the most superficial way.

It's also frustratingly unsourced. He also has this habit of pointing to sources that are never made clear.

"The Fantasy Game could have been called "Swords & Spells" or "Men & Magic" or "Treasures & Trolls," but everyone (or perhaps just Gygax's daughter or perhaps his wife, depending on which interview you prefer) liked "Dungeons & Dragons" best — so this was the name that Gygax and Arneson used."

What interviews? How can I prefer one when you never actually tell me what interviews you are citing.

"They dropped Wee Warriors from their distribution in 1977 — or Wee Warriors left because of unpaid money, depending on who you ask."

Ask who? It's nice that you highlight there are multiple stories, but who is telling what story?

"By the campaign's end in 1985, the dungeons beneath Castle Greyhawk would be somewhere between 50 and 70 levels deep, depending on who you ask."

Depending on who I ask? Why don't you tell me who you asked!

"Depending on who you believe: SPI inevitably wasn't able to pay back the loan, and so TSR foreclosed; or TSR loaned the money knowing that SPI wouldn't be able to repay it and foreclosed almost immediately; or SPI took the loan knowing that TSR would immediately foreclose, effectively creating a sale that avoided other creditors."

How I can I even begin to decide who to believe when the "who" attached to each of these three versions is never given?

The whole series is full of this kind of thing. I pulled up those quotes by searching for the word "depending" in my PDF copy of the first volume, and I am not even up to page 50 of that 350 page book. There are plenty more ahead. I remembered what word to search for because my teeth began to itch at the mention of the word "depending" every time I heard it for weeks after reading this.

It's frustrating because he clearly put a lot of work into these books, but they are absolutely useless as a history of the game industry due to the lack of sources.

Quote from: CRKrueger;949392Now you are showing yourself to be an intellectually dishonest, mealy-mouthed, spineless shitweasel. :D  The argument wasn't that the WEG RPG made Star Wars mainstream, it was that since the RPG was the foundation for so much of the Expanded Universe, it helped make RPGs themselves mainstream.  Of course you knew that, you just need to keep dancing to avoid having to man up and accept your idiocy.

BTW, you still haven't answered the question:

Was Vampire the first RPG to center on plots, or people, or politics, or relationships, or machinations, or internal conflict?  Quit hiding behind Applecline's jockstrap.  Forget what he or anyone else believes or said...

In your estimation, was it the first to center on those things, yes or no?

You have proven to me to be intellectually dishonest, through misquoting, misrepresenting arguments with strawmen and shifting goalposts, so I take all your criticisms on that basis. You have the debating ability of turd on a stick, only less interesting.

Star Wars RPG was a licensed product, with a ready made market and with an established company who already made successful RPGs. The game didn't sell as much as Vampire, or indeed last as long as Vampire. It didn't significantly shift the market share of RPGs away from D&D although it did, arguably, reduce the market share of sci-fi games away from Traveller at the time which represented a fraction of the overall RPG market. It won plaudits from Star Wars writers for it's development of the Expanded Universe, but this in itself wasn't something that meant that RPGs had hit the mainstream either.

And I have answered your idiotic question, so fuck off!

No one game, not Star Wars, Vampire and the entire WoD, Shadowrun, Call of Cthulhu or even big daddy D&D itself made RPGs mainstream by itself, however, all of them being games that draw people with imagination...drew people with imagination.  The people that write Firefly, Dresden Files, Song of Ice and Fire, Baldur's Gate, the list goes on.  Actors, writers, directors, teachers.  How does something become part of the Zeitgeist?  How do you isolate creative DNA?

Despite drawing on elements that many other games had indeed done first, Vampire brought them together at the right place at the right time in the right way, to make WoD the second best-selling influential RPG of the 90s.  No hater in the world can take that away from them, and all the cheerleaders in the world won't make that achievement something it's not.

You look at current "geek culture" though as expressed in podcasts, video feeds, tv shows, etc. by far what you see is still D&D, not Vampire or the WoD.  Ironically, I think WoD influenced literary culture more than gaming culture.   It brought the LARPers in, and some women in but not all of them stayed for the rest of the industry.  Also a lot of its RPGers are people who play lots of games, WoD is just one of them.

So the idea that WoD took RPGs mainstream is specious at best.  Like every other successful game, it played its part.

Sigh...  Why do have to prove me right Trippy?

Quote from: Snowman0147;949404Sigh...  Why do have to prove me right Trippy?

I dunno. I thought you had me on ignore button.

Quote from: Snowman0147;949404Sigh...  Why do have to prove me right Trippy?

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949406I dunno. I thought you had me on ignore button.

Yeah you can't announce someone on ignore and then call them out.  Marquis of Queensbury rules Old Chap.

Quote from: CRKrueger;949403So the idea that WoD took RPGs mainstream is specious at best.  Like every other successful game, it played its part.

You are misinterpreting what is being referred to as 'mainstream' in the context that D&D is mainstream in RPG terms. It's also been a household brand name since the 80s. The term RPG is frequently used synonymously with D&D amongst the wider public. Before Vampire it dominated RPGs to the extent of an 80% market share. There were plenty of alternatives to D&D, but they didn't really manage break it's hold.

Vampire, however, did break through with a 25% market share in a short period of time with a game that brought together a multitude of 'alternative' ideas with it, from a variety of sources, but in a commercially successful package. This, in itself, led to a substantive change in the RPG hobby, in terms of what could be successful.

This point has been said multiple times in this thread.

Quote from: CRKrueger;949409Yeah you can't announce someone on ignore and then call them out.  Marquis of Queensbury rules Old Chap.

All right in fairness I edit the post.

Edit:  You know what fuck it.  Congrats Trippy your no longer ignored much to my cringe.

Quote from: CRKrueger;949409Yeah you can't announce someone on ignore and then call them out.  Marquis of Queensbury rules Old Chap.

Personally, I think it lacks conviction.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949412Personally, I think it lacks conviction.

Coming from a man with no ethics.

Quote from: Snowman0147;949413Coming from a man with no ethics.

Coming from a man with no emotional stability, snowflake.

Quote from: CRKruegerIn your opinion, TrippyHippy, was Vampire the first RPG to center on plots, or people, or politics, or relationships, or machinations, or internal conflict? Yes or No?

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949399No.

And to return a question:

Has anybody, in your opinion, on this thread actually claimed all that? Yes or No?

I sure as hell know that I haven't.

several pages earlier...

Quote from: TrippyHippyShannon Appelcline's Designer & Dragons series puts it well in several quotes:
It wasn’t just the cover of Vampire that was startling. The entire game was different from anything seen before in the roleplaying community. In the best tradition of Anne Rice’s Interview with a Vampire (1976), White Wolf ’s new game revealed a world of politics, machinations, angst, and internal conflict. Though RPGs were already becoming more about plots and people — and less about dungeons and fighting — centering a whole game on these subjects was entirely new.

Quote from: Baulderstone;949400It's frustrating because he clearly put a lot of work into these books, but they are absolutely useless as a history of the game industry due to the lack of sources.

Totally agree, it's okay as an amateur first draft history of RPGs I guess but doesn't differentiate enough between the author's opinions, stuff he read on the net and actual facts.

Peterson's essay on the removal of Gygax from the board of TSR proves much of what he claims here to be BS, because he never bothered to research anything or talk to anyone outside of one side of disgruntled ex-employees. In fact there seems to have been very little actual original interviews done, it seems he has got most of his info from forum posts of all things.

Similarly Ewalt's book on D&D also disproves much of what he claims about TSR's business dealings before and after Gygax because he actually researched the facts rather than take the ideas of rando grognards on the net as gospel.

We know about these inaccuracies because we have other writers who have done their job to compare it to. For most of the non-D&D companies we don't have that and probably never will but considering the number of inaccuracies in the D&D history it seems safe to say the whole book is riddled with errors.

Alright, so which Vampire or oWoD game did you play the most?  I played and ran Vampire, Werewolf and Mage, but I think my favorite was Vampire: Dark Ages.  More clans, less rigid and more chaotic yet at the same time, despite the lack of weapons technology, the lack of communication and transportation technology made it seem more challenging for the Vampires.

It would be awesome if Peterson did a sequel to Playing at the World that covered the continuing history of the hobby, since he seems to be the only one in the hobby capable of genuine scholarship.

Quote from: CRKrueger;949417Alright, so which Vampire or oWoD game did you play the most?  I played and ran Vampire, Werewolf and Mage, but I think my favorite was Vampire: Dark Ages.  More clans, less rigid and more chaotic yet at the same time, despite the lack of weapons technology, the lack of communication and transportation technology made it seem more challenging for the Vampires.

I really liked Vampire: The Dark Ages (or Dark Ages: Vampire, whichever was the first one, the second one I didn't care for at all), but my favourite owod game remains Changeling: The Dreaming.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949415several pages earlier...

Yes, it may be worth noting that:

a) these were Shannon Appelcline's words, not mine.
b) he didn't actually directly claim what CRKruegar has stated, with a rather important qualifier to contextualise them,

....and if you are wanting to re-enter the fray, then you might also answer this question too:

Can you cite this marvellous original game of yours that managed to center on plots, or people, or politics, or relationships, or machinations, or internal conflict, and make it commercially successful enough to build a company with a 25% share of the RPG market from barely nothing in the space of a couple of years?

Quote from: CRKrueger;949417Alright, so which Vampire or oWoD game did you play the most?  I played and ran Vampire, Werewolf and Mage, but I think my favorite was Vampire: Dark Ages.  More clans, less rigid and more chaotic yet at the same time, despite the lack of weapons technology, the lack of communication and transportation technology made it seem more challenging for the Vampires.

Played Mage for about 6 years in a row during the 90s. Much of the way we played it, however, was home-brew and in that we brought in a heap of ideas from other games.

Let's take a look at the quote:

QuoteThe entire game was different from anything seen before in the roleplaying community.  In the best tradition of Anne Rice’s Interview with a Vampire (1976), White Wolf ’s new game revealed a world of politics, machinations, angst, and internal conflict.

So, different from anything ever seen, and revealed a world of politics, machinations, angst, and internal conflict.  We have seen by numerous examples of posters in this thread, that none of those things...politics, machinations, angst, or internal conflict were new to RPGs.

QuoteThough RPGs were already becoming more about plots and people — and less about dungeons and fighting — centering a whole game on these subjects was entirely new.

Here he claims that Vampire was the first game to center on plots and people, again, simply not true.

Now YOU may have been arguing that this was the only game that did that AND got to #2, therefore rendering all the other games that did these things first irrelevant by comparison, and that is a valid argument to make and discuss.  That, however, is not what Shannon's quote says, nor the snippets from the ad for the documentary.  But as I said, it is a documentary, so perceptions of individuals are important even if factually incorrect.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;949355I have only heard that since a few years back when some dickless from WoTC.. Mike Mearls maybe... went off on a fulmination about Diplomacy.

Really, if you're older than 13 or so, if you end a friendship over Diplomacy, you have a LOT worse problems than some game.

Id heard it before but then you hear much the same thing about any board game with diplomacy and potential backstabbing. Monopoly and Supremacy were other ones.

But wouldnt surprise me at all if Mearls said it. Or copied it from someone elses comment. Kid does love his trendy sound bytes. :rolleyes:

And dont underestimate the ability of adults to totally flip out over being backstabbed in a game by their friends. Some people really cant differentiate. And really should not have been playing such games to begin with.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949421Played Mage for about 6 years in a row during the 90s. Much of the way we played it, however, was home-brew and in that we brought in a heap of ideas from other games.

Use any Ars Magica?

Quote from: CRKrueger;949422Here he claims that Vampire was the first game to center on plots and people, again, simply not true.

So name the singular game that did it all first?

Quote from: CRKrueger;949424Use any Ars Magica?

Lots. I practically bought the entire line.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949420Yes, it may be worth noting that:

a) these were Shannon Appelcline's words, not mine.

Ah, but you cited it, and specifically endorsed the quote saying that SA "puts it well." So as these citations were posted by you to support your argument, why use a quote that you didn't agree with, or even identify that you didn't agree with it?

Quoteb) he didn't actually directly claim what CRKruegar has stated

Really? Lets look at those again:

Quote from: CRKruegerwas Vampire the first RPG to center on plots, or people, or politics, or relationships, or machinations, or internal conflict?

Quote from: TrippyHippyThe entire game was different from anything seen before in the roleplaying community...White Wolf ’s new game revealed a world of politics, machinations, angst, and internal conflict...centering a whole game on these subjects was entirely new.

Those claims seem to be exactly what CRK was asking about.

Quote...and if you are wanting to re-enter the fray, then you might also answer this question too: Can you cite this marvellous original game of yours that managed to center on plots, or people, or politics, or relationships, or machinations, or internal conflict, and make it commercially successful enough to build a company with a 25% share of the RPG market from barely nothing in the space of a couple of years?

I've never published a game.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949427Ah, but you cited it, and specifically endorsed the quote saying that SA "puts it well." So as these citations were posted by you to support your argument, why use a quote that you didn't agree with, or even identify that you didn't agree with it?

Partially, because I wanted to cite another source that wasn't the documentary-ad, and has no affiliation with White Wolf to counter the notion that the documentary is saying something that is some sort of outlandish commentary that no-one else agrees with, or that hasn't been said before. Partially because I understand the gist of what he was saying, without any attempt to twist it into some sort of calculated insult to other games and game companies. It is not his or my intention to downplay the achievements of other games. I can't, unfortunately account for how others choose to interpret it.

QuoteThose claims seem to be exactly what CRK was asking about.

If you carefully edit out the qualifying remarks, as you have done, I'm sure they do.

QuoteI've never published a game.

No, but you can answer the question properly. What, in your opinion, was the game that managed to do it all first, before Vampire?

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949428If you carefully edit out the qualifying remarks, as you have done, I'm sure they do.

Please identify what you think is a "qualifying remark" that changes the meaning of this quote: "centering a whole game on these subjects was entirely new."

QuoteWhat, in your opinion, was the game that managed to do it all first, before Vampire?

Braunstein

Quote from: Omega;949423And dont underestimate the ability of adults to totally flip out over being backstabbed in a game by their friends. Some people really cant differentiate. And really should not have been playing such games to begin with.

Hell I once had a friend flip their shit because I told them that I read warp engines from Star Trek were impossible and that you can't travel faster than light in reality because it is against the physical laws of the universe. We were in our 20s.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949425So name the singular game that did it all first?

If by "all" you mean "and got to #2", nothing.

If you simply mean the topics Applecline said Vampire was first to center on then Pendragon is the obvious one, but you could also point to Skyrealms of Jorune, the whole thing is about your place in society trying to be a citizen and the web of relationships you must attain, and of course Paranoia.  Not to mention Dallas: The RPG. ;). RuneQuest works as well with its rich web of cults, cultures and secret societies one must navigate if one is to attain power.

If you're just talking about "Plots and People" christ pick one.  Prince Valiant sticks out the most obviously.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949425So name the singular game that did it all first?

I did several pages ago. And others have named other games that have too.

Try again please.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949418It would be awesome if Peterson did a sequel to Playing at the World that covered the continuing history of the hobby, since he seems to be the only one in the hobby capable of genuine scholarship.

Considering how thorough he is I think a history of the hobby would take a lifetime. It would be great if he did a book on TSR up until Gygax left or they were bought out by WoTC. I suspect that the former is what he is working on as when he does publish shorter pieces that seems to be the time period he is covering.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949429Please identify what you think is a "qualifying remark" that changes the meaning of this quote: "centering a whole game on these subjects was entirely new."

Sure:

QuoteThough RPGs were already becoming more about plots and people — and less about dungeons and fighting

And if you want to take the time to read his whole essay, he actually goes into some detail about what ideas were original or not, and what other games influenced the design.

Anyhow, games that supposedly did everything that Vampire did before Vampire did it:

QuoteBraunstein

A game I've never heard of. Hardly qualifies as a commercial breakthrough does it?

Quote from: OmegaI did several pages ago. And others have named other games that have too.

Was that the Fantasy Wargaming book? I can't remember, but if it was, again - it had no commercial success, was still essentially a D&D-esque fantasy game and had an awkwardly complex system. Not really.  

Quote from: CRKruegarIf you simply mean the topics Applecline said Vampire was first to center on then Pendragon is the obvious one, but you could also point to Skyrealms of Jorune, the whole thing is about your place in society trying to be a citizen and the web of relationships you must attain, and of course Paranoia. Not to mention Dallas: The RPG. . RuneQuest works as well with its rich web of cults, cultures and secret societies one must navigate if one is to attain power.

Again the point of lacking a comparable commercial breakthrough here, but also again - RuneQuest, Pendragon and Prince Valiant were still fundamentally centred on physical conflict and fantasy adventure in game play, not intrigue or angsty inter-personal conflict. Paranoia was really centred on satire and comedy rather than plot and character. Dallas: The RPG I've never directly played, but I doubt it made too much of a splash in game design to have lasted beyond being just an interesting novelty.

Now all these games act as important antecedents to Vampire, especially the Chaosium games and Paranoia, but none were quite the same in terms of focus and intent, and certainly not in terms of overall market impact to the RPG hobby. And that is the point.

Trip, you are saying...
Vampire was the first game about these things...that had a large RPG market impact and broader cultural impact.

The quote and the ad are saying...
Vampire was the first game about these things.

Those are not the same statements at all.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949437Sure:

Ok, so taking the sentance as a whole: "Though RPGs were already becoming more about plots and people — and less about dungeons and fighting — centering a whole game on these subjects was entirely new."

The hypothesis of the statement, that "centering a whole game on these subjects was entirely new", is not modified in any way be the prior concessions, that merely state that rpgs were becoming more about - and becoming less about-. So, no , those "qualifying statements" do not change the meaning of the statement "centering a whole game on these subjects was entirely new" in any way.

But I thought you already said that you disagreed with this statement, so why are you now arguing that its not saying what it says?

QuoteA game I've never heard of.

Oh, holy crap. You are definitely not well-educated enough on the subject of RPG history to be participating in this debate then.

Quote from: CRKrueger;949439Those are not the same statements at all.

Those goal posts are quite mobile ;)

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949440Ok, so taking the sentance as a whole: "Though RPGs were already becoming more about plots and people — and less about dungeons and fighting — centering a whole game on these subjects was entirely new."

The hypothesis of the statement, that "centering a whole game on these subjects was entirely new", is not modified in any way be the prior concessions, that merely state that rpgs were becoming more about - and becoming less about-. So, no , those "qualifying statements" do not change the meaning of the statement "centering a whole game on these subjects was entirely new" in any way.

But I thought you already said that you disagreed with this statement, so why are you now arguing that its not saying what it says?

I don't recall actually disagreeing with what he said in any direct way, merely pointing out that they weren't my comments to cite.

Vampire centred on these things in a way that other games may have dabbled with or presented as interesting options in play, but they didn't centre the experience of playing these games in the same way Vampire did. Pendragon or Ars Magica being an example of this - you could play a dark, interpersonal game of personal angst and humanity within the remit of both - but in terms of the broader game it wasn't really their focus. They weren't centred on the idea.

Paranoia is an even better example, as it contains most of the mechanisms that makes up Vampire too (conflicting group affiliations, clandestine operations, personality quirks and mutation powers to identify with, rules lite, etc) but the focus is on comedy and quick-fire, unsentimental death rather than drama and character or narrative  development. It wasn't centering the game on the same things that Vampire was.

QuoteOh, holy crap. You are definitely not well-educated enough on the subject of RPG history to be participating in this debate then.

Well, if you are talking about the war-game, it's a bit like citing Diplomacy. They aren't RPGs and in no way do they even attempt to do what Vampire was doing. It's a bizarre comparison. Nice try at ad hominem again though.

Quote from: CRKrueger;949439Trip, you are saying...
Vampire was the first game about these things...that had a large RPG market impact and broader cultural impact.

The quote and the ad are saying...
Vampire was the first game about these things.

Those are not the same statements at all.

It's just the way you are interpreting people's comments based upon their experiences.

In their experiences, I'm sure it was the case that all of a sudden the gaming community was transformed from geeky dungeon crawls into something wildly new and exciting like Vampire, because for the major proportion of gamers in the 80s this is what their experiences were. This is not to say that there weren't alternatives to D&D that already attempted to do things in alternative ways (even D&D itself!) it's just that they weren't being experienced by a whole bunch of gamers out there. Vampire's commercial success brought these things to the forefront of gaming and altered the way in which the mainstream of gamers thought about games. As I have said, when the alternative became mainstream.

This is what my perception was of the comments in the video were. As with Appelcine's comments, it's why I don't find them offensive.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949445I don't recall actually disagreeing with what he said in any direct way

Quote from: CRKruegarIn your opinion, TrippyHippy, was Vampire the first RPG to center on plots, or people, or politics, or relationships, or machinations, or internal conflict?

Quote from: TrippyHippyNo.

And to return a question:

Has anybody, in your opinion, on this thread actually claimed all that? Yes or No?

I sure as hell know that I haven't.

round and round we go.

QuoteNice try at ad hominem again though.

No, it was a statement of fact. Trying to argue any aspect of the history of RPGs, but then identifying you've never heard of Braunstein, completely destroys any credibility. I'm sorry* if you take that personally, but it's true.

*not really

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949450It's just the way you are interpreting people's comments based upon their experiences. In their experiences, I'm sure it was the case that all of a sudden the gaming community was transformed from geeky dungeon crawls into something wildly new and exciting like Vampire, because for the major proportion of gamers in the 80s this is what their experiences were. This is not to say that there weren't alternatives to D&D that already attempted these things (even D&D itself!) it's just that they weren't being experienced by a whole bunch of gamers out there. Vampire's commercial success brought these things to the forefront of gaming.

This is what my perception was of the comments in the video were.

You've chosen to interpret the statements in that way. The rest of us aren't discussing interpretations or attempting to mind-read what the people may have "really meant" in contradiction to what was actually said, we are responding to the actual comments made.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949453You've chosen to interpret the statements in that way. The rest of us aren't discussing interpretations or attempting to mind-read what the people may have "really meant" in contradiction to what was actually said, we are responding to the actual comments made.

You do not have a monopoly on perspective. Your interpretation of what was actually said is not somehow superior to mine. Whatever is said is still going to be filtered through your own experiences and perspective and it's not inherently valid.

They literally ask you "yes or no" questions.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949451No, it was a statement of fact. Trying to argue any aspect of the history of RPGs, but then identifying you've never heard of Braunstein, completely destroys any credibility. I'm sorry* if you take that personally, but it's true.[/SIZE]

It was a statement of ad hominem which you seem to have difficulty understanding. When you say:

QuoteYou are definitely not well-educated enough on the subject of RPG history to be participating in this debate then.

...you are not addressing the arguments or ideas of the person arguing with you, you are trying to undermine the person's credibility to make the argument. Attacking the man, not the ball. It's called ad hominem and it merely highlights the weakness in your own arguments.

And if you are still citing my response to the yes/no question proposed, again the point was that this was not what Appelcline was actually saying.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949399Can you cite this marvellous original game of yours that managed to center on plots, or people, or politics, or relationships, or machinations, or internal conflict, and make it commercially successful enough to build a company with a 25% share of the RPG market from barely nothing in the space of a couple of years?

OD&D.

OD&D high level play was all about being lords in political squabbles. It had all the plots, people, politics, relationships, machinations and internal conflict you could desire since it was all about playing a noble with a mini-kingdom trying to make it a bigger kingdom and stay alive.

However, that style of play didn't capture the audience appeal like dungeon crawling.

But OD&D had all that Prince of the City dance starting at 9th level.

Vampire did a really good job of bringing that high level lords and ladies experience into game play from chargen onward.

Not a surprise that TSR would later respond with Birthright.

Quote from: CRKrueger;949417Alright, so which Vampire or oWoD game did you play the most?

Vampire as LARP

Werewolf: the Apocalypse as tabletop.

Aeon Trinity isn't WoD, but its my favorite WW game by far with the most hours of play. Of course, the joke is most of that play is campaigns just using the Quickstart.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949454Responding like petulant, thin skinned children I might add.

Quote from: TrippyHippyNice try at ad hominem again though.

:P

Quote from: TrippyHippyYour interpretation of what was actually said is not somehow superior to mine.

I'm not offering or engaging in any interpretation.

I don't suppose anyone would consider agreeing that:

* People in the preview did in fact say, literally and explicitly, that V:tM was the first to do a number of things that it was not in fact first to do,

but simultaneously,

* They probably meant that no more literally than Snowman meant (in his recent statement in another thread) that every single thing in the universe has been made worthless and it's completely, entirely and with no exception the fault of SJWs - in other words, they were expressing what they saw as a rough overall truth, which, while somewhat overblown, is not entirely without basis in facts?

Or you could just keep yelling the exact same arguments at each other over and over again for a few days more. I mean, if that's your idea of fun, then more power to you? It just looks exhausting to me. :p

Quote from: Spinachcat;949460OD&D.

OD&D high level play was all about being lords in political squabbles. It had all the plots, people, politics, relationships, machinations and internal conflict you could desire since it was all about playing a noble with a mini-kingdom trying to make it a bigger kingdom and stay alive.

However, that style of play didn't capture the audience appeal like dungeon crawling.

Largely because the Experience system rewarded Levels of power via adventuring and conquest? As I said, it wasn't that you couldn't find ways to play RPGs in this way, any RPG quite possibly, but it wasn't what they were centred on. Vampire centred on these themes through mechanical rewards for roleplaying and story-based goals that were generally personality-driven.

QuoteBut OD&D had all that Prince of the City dance starting at 9th level.

Vampire did a really good job of bringing that high level lords and ladies experience into game play from chargen onward.

Not a surprise that TSR would later respond with Birthright.

Which is a good illustration of how Vampire helped bring the alternative into the mainstream right there.

Quote from: Spinachcat;949460OD&D.

OD&D high level play was all about being lords in political squabbles. It had all the plots, people, politics, relationships, machinations and internal conflict you could desire since it was all about playing a noble with a mini-kingdom trying to make it a bigger kingdom and stay alive.

However, that style of play didn't capture the audience appeal like dungeon crawling.

But OD&D had all that Prince of the City dance starting at 9th level.

Vampire did a really good job of bringing that high level lords and ladies experience into game play from chargen onward.

Not a surprise that TSR would later respond with Birthright.




Vampire as LARP

Werewolf: the Apocalypse as tabletop.

Aeon Trinity isn't WoD, but its my favorite WW game by far with the most hours of play. Of course, the joke is most of that play is campaigns just using the Quickstart.

You nailed it. And Aeon is boss. Kind of like Mage without the bullshit. LARP doesn't work well with Changeling, Mage or Werewolf though which are the games I like in the WW line. But yes White Wolf brought in whole new audiences into RPG's no question. For example myself. I played DnD but didn't really like it. When Vampire/Werewolf/Mage came out I was hooked.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949461:P

Fair cop. Although, to be sure, you are reacting like petulant, thin skinned children.

QuoteDave Arneson: Gamer Ex Nihilo
“Peaceful revolutionary. Gets points for printing and delivering leaflets to each of his revolutionaries, and more for handing them out to other civilians (who may be agents or guerrillas of course…). Starts at home. (B-4)”
–Braunstein 4, Banana Republic

When you started gaming you read all these books, and they told you you could be a cleric or a thief or an elf (or a vampire or a Prince of Amber) and they told you you should probably pick a caller and set up a marching order and listen at doors and all that other stuff. You marched your character around and talked in funny voices. Sooner or later you may have realized that the rules didn’t drive the game, your imagination did.

But what if you never had any of those books? What if no one had ever explained to you what roleplaying was? Were you a good enough gamer to become a gamer without even knowing what a gamer was? Could you have just started being a gamer out of thin air, without anyone ever telling you how to do it?

Dave Arneson did.

He lied, swindled, improvised, and played his character to the hilt. He came to the game with fake CIA ID he’d mocked up, so when another player “captured” and searched him he could whip them out. Other players were still moving pieces around the board and issuing orders like a wargame while Dave Arneson was running circles around them and changing the whole scenario. He was winning the game entirely by roleplaying.

You may think of Dave Arneson as one of the godfathers of GMing, but even before that he was the godfather of players.

“You’re the student revolutionary leader,” Wesely says “You get victory points for distributing revolutionary leaflets. You’ve got a whole briefcase full of them.”

Much later, having convinced his fellow players that he is really, perhaps, an undercover CIA operative, and that the entire nation’s treasury is really much safer in his hands, Dave Arneson’s character is politely ushered aboard a helicopter to whisk him to safety.

Far below the streets are still churning with fighting, plastic soldiers colliding with innocent citizens and angry rioters. In his lap sits the forgotten briefcase of revolutionary leaflets. “I get points for distributing these right?” And with a sweep of his arm he adds insult to injury, hurling reams of pages into the downdraft of the helicopter where they scatter and float lazily down upon the entire town…

Final score: Dave Arneson, plus several thousand points

'Nuff Said, I think.

Quote from: Marleycat;949466You nailed it. And Aeon is boss. Kind of like Mage without the bullshit. LARP doesn't work well with Changeling, Mage or Werewolf though. TBH.

I never felt that LARP really worked well for Mage or Werewolf (although the concise, pocket rulebooks were nice), but I thought Changeling was actually better in LARP than either the tabletop game or Vampire. It was something that people could dress up in a theatrical way, and get into social conflict of various sorts, but without all the gothic-agstyness.

Aeon was OK, although Mage will always remain my favourite. Probably because of the bullshit elements, I guess.

Quote from: Marleycat;949466And Aeon is boss. Kind of like Mage without the bullshit.

Agreed.

The inter-clan battles in Aeon Trinity feel tacked on, whereas they make more sense as tribes in Werewolf, genetic clans in Vampire or philosophical orders in Mage. Thus, you rarely see the inter-clan stuff in Aeon, especially when the game was mostly focused on dealing with Aberrants who are crazy powerful.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949470'Nuff Said, I think.

Great, except it wasn't ever published as a RPG. It's an antecedent to roleplaying, albeit an interesting and worthy one.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949471I never felt that LARP really worked well for Mage or Werewolf (although the concise, pocket rulebooks were nice), but I thought Changeling was actually better in LARP than either the tabletop game or Vampire. It was something that people could dress up in a theatrical way, and get into social conflict of various sorts, but without all the gothic-agstyness.

Aeon was OK, although Mage will always remain my favourite. Probably because of the bullshit elements, I guess.

I can buy the dress up thing for Changeling especially since the OWoD version was all about nobility/commoners and the rest. Mage is and will always be my favorite game by the way.

How can you just think Aeon is just ok? That game is X-Men at worst, it's much higher in power level as a baseline and has an awesome setting to work with.

Quote from: Spinachcat;949472Agreed.

The inter-clan battles in Aeon Trinity feel tacked on, whereas they make more sense as tribes in Werewolf, genetic clans in Vampire or philosophical orders in Mage. Thus, you rarely see the inter-clan stuff in Aeon, especially when the game was mostly focused on dealing with Aberrants who are crazy powerful.

True. I hope that is fixed in the new edition.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949473Great, except it wasn't ever published as a RPG.

It was the first RPG, so it captured 100% of the market. Even if that market was only a handful of players at the time.

Quote from: Marleycat;949474I can buy the dress up thing for Changeling especially since the OWoD version was all about nobility/commoners and the rest. Mage is and will always be my favorite game by the way.

How can you just think Aeon is just ok? That game is X-Men at worst, it's much higher in power level as a baseline and has an awesome setting to work with.

Actually, the mild turn off was probably in the tacked on nature of the Orders too - they felt stereotyped. I was also jarred a little by the marketing clusterfuck that came before it with Mark Rein-Hagen's Exile. They had promoted this weird transhumanish space game online for months, and then released the more action orientated Aeon which I wasn't really primed for. It screwed with expectations. Then they changed the name to Trinity straight after - to increase the confusion.

That said, I too am looking forward with what they do with the new release later in the year.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949481It was the first RPG, so it captured 100% of the market. Even if that market was only a handful of players at the time.

In order to capture a market you have to, y'know, sell something.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949482Actually, the mild turn off was probably in the tacked on nature of the Orders too - they felt stereotyped. I was also jarred a little by the marketing clusterfuck that came before it with Mark Rein-Hagen's Exile. They had promoted this weird transhumanish space game online for months, and then released the more action orientated Aeon which I wasn't really primed for. It screwed with expectations. Then they changed the name to Trinity straight after - to increase the confusion.

That said, I too am looking forward with what they do with the new release later in the year.

Yeah the MTV thing, Aeon Flux had no relation to Aeon. I thought it was stupid then and even more stupid now. I had the original Aeon spiral bound book. I hope they just make it normal this time around.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949483In order to capture a market you have to, y'know, sell something.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1XFyQwwXkEk/VE7tc9PrBBI/AAAAAAAAA6w/JygXgDkQl2Y/s1600/Front%2B(Final).png)

Uhuh. And did they publish it and sell it?

You can still buy it today.

http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/139125/Barons-of-Braunstein (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/139125/Barons-of-Braunstein)

Quote from: Marleycat;949484Yeah the MTV thing, Aeon Flux had no relation to Aeon. I thought it was stupid then and even more stupid now. I had the original Aeon spiral bound book. I hope they just make it normal this time around.

Oh, and I hope they finally fully integrate the free-form Psychic system.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949488You can still buy it today.

http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/139125/Barons-of-Braunstein (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/139125/Barons-of-Braunstein)

Nice link. Downloaded.

Was it published before D&D?


EDIT - Well, I checked and it was published in 2008. Also, just flicking through the pages - which are interesting - there is nothing in the way of any of the tropes that characterise Vampire. It's a D&Dish fantasy adventure, with a medieval historical background and a focus on combat and gaining experience.

By reading the full blurb, it must be finally noted that "Barons of Braunstein" is actually "inspired by David Wesley's Braunstein" and not the original game itself.

So does this mean the original game was never published or sold?

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949491Nice link. Downloaded.

Was it published before D&D?

Braunstein led to Blackmoor led to D&D.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949489Oh, and I hope they finally fully integrate the free-form Psychic system.

I think they will given the game will be four different games. Adventure/Trinity/Aberrant/Aeon.

Adventure is like Indiana Jones with low powered Talents/Wildcards/Psi's/Novas.
Trinity is modern times like Fast and Furious or John Wick. Basically Talents/Wildcards
Aberrant is near future with dudes that are Mages (Nova's) without paradox that go crazy because power corrupts.
Aeon are your full psi's in a setting 200-300 years from now. With space colonies of all technology levels and aliens because of said Novas.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949492Braunstein led to Blackmoor led to D&D.

Great, but it didn't do what Vampire did.

Quote from: Marleycat;949495I think they will given the game will be four different games. Adventure/Trinity/Aberrant/Aeon.

Adventure is like Indiana Jones with low powered Talents/Wildcards/Psi's/Novas.
Trinity is modern times like Fast and Furious or John Wick.
Aberrant is near future with dudes that are Mages without paradox that go crazy because power corrupts.
Aeon are your full psi's in a setting 200-300 years from now.

Yeah, there's a lot of coolness that could be done with all that.

I thought that there would be a core rules book, that could be used as generic action rules, and then three setting books?

Quote from: Marleycat;949495I think they will given the game will be four different games. Adventure/Trinity/Aberrant/Aeon.

Adventure is like Indiana Jones with low powered Talents/Wildcards/Psi's/Novas.
Trinity is modern times like Fast and Furious or John Wick. Basically Talents/Wildcards
Aberrant is near future with dudes that are Mages without paradox that go crazy because power corrupts.
Aeon are your full psi's in a setting 200-300 years from now.

Interesting, I didn't know they were adding a another "chapter" to the game line this time around. They're changing up in the in setting jargon for them too from the sound of this?

Adventure was "pulp" (in the gamer sense) action where the rational was some people had the ability to subtle manipulate (more nudge) reality particularly probability in their favor allowing them to perform heroic feats along with low end psionics and esoteric "super science" which made for something like Indiana Jones, low end golden age comics and adventure stories

Aberrant was more modern (for the time, Turn of the millennium) and dealt with emergence of Novas, people granted the ability to (largely unconsciously) manipulate reality on the quantum level which basically granted the comic book style superpowers as White Wolf was obviously too mature to make a mere superhero game.

Aeon was more in the future after the Nova mostly went nuts due to overusing their powers and mutating or left/were kicked off Earth in a huge war that fucked things up. Psionic powers became understood and harness and the PCs were usuallty psionically endowed operatives.

There is a shit to of metaplot and backstory that ran through all three games. This was a major feature or bug depending on your stance on such things. There was also the usual inter "splat" feuds and "You're doing it wrong" 'tudes (mostly about Aberrant.

Well, the "sure to piss everyone off" part of the thread title has sure proven to be true.

Quote from: Nexus;949498Interesting, I didn't know they were adding a another "chapter" to the game line this time around. They're changing up in the in setting jargon for them too from the sound of this?

Yes. And they plan something just before current times like possibly 1950-70. And something far future like Battlestar Galactica, Dune, Fading Suns.

Quote from: Nexus;949498Interesting, I didn't know they were adding a another "chapter" to the game line this time around. They're changing up in the in setting jargon for them too from the sound of this?

I had a quick check over at the Onyx Path site. Yep, the corebook is Trinity Continuum, with enough rules to let you run modern day action. You then get the setting books for Aeon/Aberant/Adventure respectively to add on, with 'other eras to follow'. So the set up is sort of like the Chronicles of Darkness.

Quote from: Nexus;949499Well, the "sure to piss everyone off" part of the thread title has sure proven to be true.

Gamers are indignation junkies anyway, so it's not unusual.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949497Yeah, there's a lot of coolness that could be done with all that.

I thought that there would be a core rules book, that could be used as generic action rules, and then three setting books?

Trinity is the corebook and setting.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949501I had a quick check over at the Onyx Path site. Yep, the corebook is Trinity Continuum, with enough rules to let you run modern day action. You then get the setting books for Aeon/Aberant/Adventure respectively to add on, with 'other eras to follow'. So the set up is sort of like the Chronicles of Darkness.

I wonder if there will be a repeat of the Nova vs Psi splat wars...

I sincerely hope the metaplot is much more optional this time around.

Quote from: Nexus;949505I wonder if there will be a repeat of the Nova vs Psi splat wars....

I never heard of that. I was never into Aberrant though...I was an Aeon/Trinity girl all the way.:)

Aberrant was too comic book/silly in my opinion to take seriously.

Quote from: Nexus;949505I wonder if there will be a repeat of the Nova vs Psi splat wars...

I sincerely hope the metaplot is much more optional this time around.

It will be, OP isn't about metaplot. They prefer toolkit games you customize yourself. And like Scion, this is their game using a different game engine then Storyteller or anything White Wolf.

Quote from: Marleycat;949507I never heard of that. I was never into Aberrant though...I was an Aeon/Trinity girl all the way.:)

Aberrant was too comic book/silly in my opinion to take seriously.

Aberrant was one of the few supers games I liked - I liked the satirical aspects of it - although I'm not sure the rules were well suited for it. The new rules may sort it.

Quote from: Marleycat;949507I never heard of that. I was never into Aberrant though...I was an Aeon/Trinity girl all the way.:)

Aberrant was too comic book/silly in my opinion to take seriously.

There was a whole Vampire/Werewolf. Solar/Dragonblooded geek rivalry thing going on between the game's fans. The kind of thing WW seemed to thrive on in hindsight I was never much into pulp and Aeon didn't grab me either for a few reasons so I only liked Aberrant which had a nice basis for a Iron/Dark Age comic series once you hosed off the WODisms. Mashing them together into one time line felt really clumsy and limiting (and fed into the rivalry "My favorite splat can beat up yours" silliness).

Amusingly, White Wolf seemed to agree with you, at least the Line Developer for Aberrant did as the writers seemed to out of their way to show it MOST DEFINITELY NOT A SUPERHERO/COMIC game despite the code name, powers, teams, etc etc. It was Serious Storytelling Business.

Pretty sure the Braunstein rules were never commercially published. I think the creator of Braunstein hated fantasy war gaming btw.

Although Braunstein is often said to be the first RPG, it is probably more accurately described as the precusor to D&D, as according to Peterson people were playing political role-playing games at RAND and MIT as early as the late 50s. Couldn't one argue these were the first 'RPGs'? It seems the very term 'role-playing game' comes from these very games. Depends on how you define a RPG I guess.

It also seems that the aforementioned Diplomacy likely developed under the influence of the RAND and MIT political role-playing games. Ironically, despite Pundit's hatred of Vampire one could argue the game's focus on interpersonal intrigue and politics was in fact a return to the roots of 'RPGs.'  At least one could propose it as a provocation, i.e. for laughs.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949509Aberrant was one of the few supers games I liked - I liked the satirical aspects of it - although I'm not sure the rules were well suited for it. The new rules may sort it.

Hopefully. But four color superheroes aren't my thing. I prefer darker like Batman or Jean Grey or even Harlequin.

It always seemed like the claims of Vampire etc being the first rpgs to center of politics and interpersonal activity was in part driven on it being at least among the first to have detailed rules for those activities? Not sure if that's true or not and definition of "detailed" is subjective.

Quote from: Nexus;949510There was a whole Vampire/Werewolf. Solar/Dragonblooded geek rivalry thing going on between the game's fans. The kind of thing WW seemed to thrive on in hindsight I was never much into pulp and Aeon didn't grab me either for a few reasons so I only liked Aberrant which had a nice basis for a Iron/Dark Age comic series once you hosed off the WODisms. Mashing them together into one time line felt really clumsy and limiting (and fed into the rivalry "My favorite splat can beat up yours" silliness).

Amusingly, White Wolf seemed to agree with you, at least the Line Developer for Aberrant did as the writers seemed to out of their way to show it MOST DEFINITELY NOT A SUPERHERO/COMIC game despite the code name, powers, teams, etc etc. It was Serious Storytelling Business.

Interesting. I'm coming from the opposite side and preference. Weird but isn't it cool we meet in the middle?

Quote from: Marleycat;949512Hopefully. But four color superheroes aren't my thing. I prefer darker like Batman or Jean Grey or even Harlequin.

Aberrant was definitely not four color in the classic sense*. It was more like stuff like The Authority, maybe Stormwatch, if you were into that. Hell, according to the Developer even that was "doing it wrong" but how most people ended up playing it in my experience. The rule did kinda blow though for many of the same reason ST blows as a syste, for Exalted.

*There was an article in the Aberrant player's guide titled "This is not the Supefriends" that really chapped asses. LOL

Quote from: Nexus;949516Aberrant was definitely not four color in the classic sense*. It was more like stuff like The Authority, maybe Stormwatch, if you were into that. Hell, according to the Developer even that was "doing it wrong" but how most people ended up playing it in my experience. The rule did kinda blow though for many of the same reason ST blows as a syste, for Exalted.

*There was an article in the Aberrant player's guide titled "This is not the Supefriends" that really chapped asses. LOL

Seriously? From talking with fans and people that actually played the game I got the sense Nova's were Mages without limits or Superman types with even more powers.

Apparently Gygax was part of a play-by-mail political role-playing game called AdHocCom whose rules were too complex for him, so I'd say the rules for those games were probably very detailed. Of course it isn't really reasonable to expect the people who created Vampire to know that much about the obscure roots of the hobby.

Quote from: Marleycat;949517Seriously? From talking with fans and people that actually played the game I got the sense Nova's were Mages without limits or Superman types with even more powers.

Generally they weren't*. Nova were people with the ability to manipulate reality, which I guess is similar to Mage(?) Daredevils in Adventure were sort of "proto Novas"IIRC,  but on a largely unconscious level which allowed them to bend/break the laws of physics in specific ways, usually according to theme or specific type of powers based to some degree on their psychological make up and how their abilities emerged (their origin, in comic book terms), a process called Eruption which could be triggered in various ways including but not limited to extreme physical and emotional stress. For example, a Nova who Eruption was caused by lethal fall might develop the ability to fly, physical toughness to survive the fall or even the ability to teleport to reach safety. And perhaps some other abilities in tune with the situation and their nature. As they grew in power Nova could expand on their abilities along their themes. The flying Nova might learn to further control gravity or the wind or whatever mechanism they appeared to use to fly.

Most Nova didn't fully grasp the potential of their powers and how they worked; that they could expand beyond their "theme". Some did but there were risk involved as pushing your powers too hard to could lead to mutations, both physical and mental that slowly ate away at the character's humanity, even sanity. Some factions explored that aspect of Novahood, others fought to avoid that fate. Most PCs were more like low to mid level comic supers than "gods" in anything but strictest sense. Hell, most Novas could be killed with small arms fire outside of certain builds (You know Storyteller, You can usually bend it over a barrel with very little effort and some things were just flat out wonky). And a Nova that ran out of "Quantum" (this games version of Rage, blood pool, etc) was often just a normal person that healed faster and had 1 or 2 points of Lethal soak and possibly some extraordinary attributes soak they regained it; again aside from certain builds.  

*This being White Wolf there were some special snowflake NPCs that apparently got to read the books. And, in general, the NPCs were majorly more powerful than PC to be more effective metaplot bludgeons. (IMO). "What would you do with the power of a god?" "Watch the other more powerful gods act out the script."

Edit: Ironically, it was the Player's Guide that introduced the truly high end (and out of reach of anything but specialized game or snowflake NPC) level of Nova powers that were god like to be fair. Including and I shit you not, the ability to create your own universe as one of the apex powers.

Quote from: Nexus;949524Generally they weren't*. Nova were people with the ability to manipulate reality, which I guess is similar to Mage(?) but on a largely unconscious level which allowed them to bend/break the laws of physics in specific ways, usually according to theme or specific type of powers based to some degree on their psychological make up and how their abilities emerged (their origin, in comic book terms), a process called Eruption which could be triggered in various ways including but not limited to extreme physical and emotional stress. For example, a Nova who Eruption was caused by lethal fall might develop the ability to fly, physical toughness to survive the fall or even the ability to teleport to reach safety. And perhaps some other abilities in tune with the situation and their nature. As they grew in power Nova could expand on their abilities along their themes. The flying Nova might learn to further control gravity or the wind or whatever mechanism they appeared to use to fly.

Most Nova didn't fully grasp the potential of their powers and how they worked; that they could expand beyond their "theme". Some did but there were risk involved as pushing your powers too hard to could lead to mutations, both physical and mental that slowly ate away at the character's humanity, even sanity. Some factions explored that aspect of Novahood, others fought to avoid that fate. Most PCs were more like low to mid level comic supers than "gods" in anything but strictest sense. Hell, most Novas could be killed with small arms fire outside of certain builds (You know Storyteller, You can usually bend it over a barrel with very little effort and some things were just flat out wonky). And a Nova that ran out of "Quantum" (this games version of Rage, blood pool, etc) was often just a normal person that healed faster and had 1 or 2 points of Lethal soak until they regained it; again aside from certain builds.  

*This being White Wolf there were some special snowflake NPCs that apparently got to read the books. And, in general, the NPCs were majorly more powerful than PC to be more effective metaplot bludgeons. (IMO).

Edit: Ironically, it was the Player's Guide that introduced the truly high end (and out of reach of anything but specialized game or snowflake NPC) level of Nova powers that were god like to be fair.
Including and I shit you not, the ability to create your own universe.

Ahh, so they are like Witches/Sorcerers in HtV or strong versions of Second Sight people unless you allow stupid? I thought why they were really powerful was the fact that they manipulated sub quantum nuclear stuff. Teleportation not by sympathy like everyone else but just ripping holes in the pattern and saying screw you.

Quote from: Marleycat;949525Ahh, so they are like Witches/Sorcerers in HtV or strong versions of Second Sight people unless you allow stupid?

I'm not really familiar with Hunter: the Vigil (?) so I can't make that call precisely but if I get your gist that sounds about right. PCs could be pretty fragile to potent to broken as Hell depending on your dedication to optimizing. The "intended" power level seemed to be about the early or cinematic X-men or Heroes (tv show) level.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949419I really liked Vampire: The Dark Ages (or Dark Ages: Vampire, whichever was the first one, the second one I didn't care for at all), but my favourite owod game remains Changeling: The Dreaming.

Dark Ages does rock, I must admit.

Also, Street Fighter: The Storytelling Game is fucking boss to this day. My favorite gameline overall is the unofficial fan-game Senshi: The Merchandising. Even though it is a fan game and tongue-in-cheek, I consider it part of my WoD headcanon.

http://www.thekeep.org/~wombat/SenshiTM/senshi.html

Quote from: Nexus;949526I'm not really familiar with Hunter: the Vigil (?) so I can't make that call precisely but if I get your gist that sounds about right. PCs could be pretty fragile to potent to broken as Hell depending on your dedication to optimizing. The "intended" power level seemed to be about the early or cinematic X-men or Heroes (tv show) level.

Gotcha. I really thought the baseline power level was far higher.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;949532Dark Ages does rock, I must admit.

Also, Street Fighter: The Storytelling Game is fucking boss to this day. My favorite gameline overall is the unofficial fan-game Senshi: The Merchandising. Even though it is a fan game and tongue-in-cheek, I consider it part of my WoD headcanon.

http://www.thekeep.org/~wombat/SenshiTM/senshi.html

DA Fae/Mage are ridiculously good, even better then Mage SC.

Quote from: Marleycat;949535DA Fae/Mage are ridiculously good, even better then Mage SC.

I've heard Dark Ages: Fae was good and if I ever save up enough money, I will buy a copy of it off of Amazon. I'm mostly familiar with Dark Ages: Vampire and know nothing about Dark Ages: Mage. Mage 1e and 2e are awesome in my book, but Revised and M20 suck ass in my opinion. Is Dark Ages: Mage good like 1e and 2e Mage or is it all wangsty and pretentious like Revised?

Fun fact: When I was a senior in high school, I came up with a homebrew Dark Ages game titled Dark Ages: Adventurer which served as a historical prequel to Street Fighter. Even wrote some homebrewed rules for it on notebook paper. Unfortunately, those rules have been long gone since 2011.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;949536I've heard Dark Ages: Fae was good and if I ever save up enough money, I will buy a copy of it off of Amazon. I'm mostly familiar with Dark Ages: Vampire and know nothing about Dark Ages: Mage. Mage 1e and 2e are awesome in my book, but Revised and M20 suck ass in my opinion. Is Dark Ages: Mage good like 1e and 2e Mage or is it all wangsty and pretentious like Revised?

Fun fact: When I was a senior in high school, I came up with a homebrew Dark Ages game titled Dark Ages: Adventurer which served as a historical prequel to Street Fighter. Even wrote some homebrewed rules for it on notebook paper. Unfortunately, those rules have been long gone since 2011.

The former but it's nothing like Mage the Ascension with the spheres. You get Foundations/Pillars which are both tighter and looser then spheres and you have to think outside the box because as I said Foundations/Pillars are far more flexible then spheres or arcanum if you understand the concept/system. And the amount you get is dependent on your paradigm. DA Fae isn't about Changelings it's about actual Fae the kind of fae that rival mages in pure straight up power. And they get a weaker version of Awakened magic called Unleashing with risks. 2e Changeling the Lost is stealing it for that game.

Quote from: Marleycat;949534Gotcha. I really thought the baseline power level was far higher.

Glad my rambling was informative, at least. :)

I think that allot of players amped things up either deliberately or unconsciously to better live up to the tagline "What would you do with the power of god?". That's complete opinion and anecdote. We did and, to be fair, the PCs did get plenty powerful but we played out a game over the course of 100 yrs (Novas tend to be naturally long lived, extremely so with certain abilities). To the point one character eventually used her enviormemtal control powers to terrafor Venus and migrate their with other Novas dissatisfied with the politicing on Earth, after generating her own new sapient species and another used their healing powers to alter the physical nature of humanity to make humans more durable and resistant to disorders like cancer and disease near the end of the campaign. But it required tossing the metaplot aspects.

I don't want to come across like I'm badmouthing the setting. We had allot of fun with it and, ignoring the WW pretensiousness and angst love did an interesting job trying to ground a comic setting and involve more "realistic" issues. If comics and supers are you thing its workable and fun but like many ST games you have to work against the rules (or adopt a new set) and ignore some of their "high concept" blather (IMO).

Quote from: Nexus;949540Glad my rambling was informative, at least. :)

I think that allot of players amped things up either deliberately or unconsciously to better live up to the tagline "What would you do with the power of god?". That's complete opinion and anecdote. We did and, to be fair, the PCs did get plenty powerful but we played out a game over the course of 100 yrs (Novas tend to be naturally long lived, extremely so with certain abilities). To the point one character eventually used her enviormemtal control powers to terrafor Venus and migrate their with other Novas dissatisfied with the politicing on Earth, after generating her own new sapient species and another used their healing powers to alter the physical nature of humanity to make humans more durable and resistant to disorders like cancer and disease near the end of the campaign. But it required tossing the metaplot aspects.

I don't want to come across like I'm badmouthing the setting. We had allot of fun with it and, ignoring the WW pretensiousness and angst love did an interesting job trying to ground a comic setting and involve more "realistic" issues. If comics and supers are you thing its workable and fun but like many ST games you have to work against the rules (or adopt a new set) and ignore some of their "high concept" blather (IMO).

Sounds neat but for some reason it just doesn't grab me. Mages make more sense to me in that role. Luckily I really dig Aeon and psi's for my version of the future.:)

Quote from: Marleycat;949534Gotcha. I really thought the baseline power level was far higher.

Like Nexus says, the power level was... wonky.

I'd argue the focus was higher than X-men or Heroes to start (it was pretty easy to build Magneto as a beginning character), but the craziest build I thought wasn't to go buy powers (unless it was an Elemental Mastery) but to buy Mega-Attributes.  A starting character buys one dot in each Mega, gets a free power related to modifying/boosting -each- Mega, and then has some change left over for Flight (or some other trivial power, but who wouldn't want to fly if they could?).

Honestly, I wonder how much the whole post-post-modern attitude of comics like The Boys was tapping into the same sort of contempt for four-color Silver Age heroics and contemporary comics culture that Aberrant was.  (even though The Boys came out -years- later)

Quote from: san dee jota;949543Like Nexus says, the power level was... wonky.

I'd argue the focus was higher than X-men or Heroes to start (it was pretty easy to build Magneto as a beginning character),but the craziest build I thought wasn't to go buy powers (unless it was an Elemental Mastery) but to buy Mega-Attributes.  A starting character buys one dot in each Mega, gets a free power related to modifying/boosting -each- Mega, and then has some change left over for Flight (or some other trivial power, but who wouldn't want to fly if they could?).

So called "Stealth Novas" could be potent.

QuoteHonestly, I wonder how much the whole post-post-modern attitude of comics like The Boys was tapping into the same sort of contempt for four-color Silver Age heroics and contemporary comics culture that Aberrant was.  (even though The Boys came out -years- later)

I'd say a good bit of it. The Boys may have come out later but there were other comics of a similar bent out around the time and it definitely fits the attitude the staffers showed towards the genre.

Quote from: Nexus;949499Well, the "sure to piss everyone off" part of the thread title has sure proven to be true.

And that's the part that's depressing.

Quote from: Voros;949511Pretty sure the Braunstein rules were never commercially published. I think the creator of Braunstein hated fantasy war gaming btw.

Although Braunstein is often said to be the first RPG, it is probably more accurately described as the precusor to D&D, as according to Peterson people were playing political role-playing games at RAND and MIT as early as the late 50s. Couldn't one argue these were the first 'RPGs'? It seems the very term 'role-playing game' comes from these very games. Depends on how you define a RPG I guess.

It also seems that the aforementioned Diplomacy likely developed under the influence of the RAND and MIT political role-playing games. Ironically, despite Pundit's hatred of Vampire one could argue the game's focus on interpersonal intrigue and politics was in fact a return to the roots of 'RPGs.'  At least one could propose it as a provocation, i.e. for laughs.

Quote from: Voros;949518Apparently Gygax was part of a play-by-mail political role-playing game called AdHocCom whose rules were too complex for him, so I'd say the rules for those games were probably very detailed. Of course it isn't really reasonable to expect the people who created Vampire to know that much about the obscure roots of the hobby.

Braunstein and things like AdHocCom are all legitimately part of the RPG legacy. They probably qualify as some form of proto-rpg precursor, so I can understand if someone were to not count them. They definitely didn't have widespread availability. That's why saying someone did something first is such a rabbit hole.

Quote from: Marleycat;949503Trinity is the corebook and setting.

Right, the three games in the series are all standalone but interconnected by background. Adventure, Aberrant and Aeon/Trinity.

Of the three I like Aberrant the most. Trinity felt a little too disjointed and a bit incomplete too.

Quote from: Marleycat;949507I never heard of that. I was never into Aberrant though...I was an Aeon/Trinity girl all the way.:)

Aberrant was too comic book/silly in my opinion to take seriously.

Silly how? Its one of the more overall realistic supers settings in that it extrapolates a world of ordinary people given extraordinary powers. Add in the whole conspiracy element. Trinity is pretty much the same. Except in space.

Quote from: Marleycat;949512Hopefully. But four color superheroes aren't my thing. I prefer darker like Batman or Jean Grey or even Harlequin.

off topic still. It wasnt very "four colours supers" really. Its closer to the 90s dark age style comics. Sex, violence, abuse of power and despite some of the novas powers, its more street level in some ways.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949486Uhuh. And did they publish it and sell it?

The published Braunstein was created a few years back without Dave Wesley's knowledge.  Fortunately, when they found Dave, they asked him for permission and he granted it.

Braunstein, to be technical, was not PUBLISHED until 2014 or so.  (EDIT:  2008, you said.  Same point.)  Dave Wesley never published or sold the original Braunstein.

And the "END GAME" in OD&D of warring feudal states was obvious to its original audience -- wargamers.  Take a bunch of wargamers, give each one a castle and an army and a treasure vault, and you WILL get wars.  Just stand back and let it happen.

When TSR switched its marketing direction to teenage boys, yeah, that whole idea went down the shitter.

Quote from: Marleycat;948775I'm sure there were story type games before White Wolf but as a woman I never heard of them or cared. For all the fact that White Wolf's actual game engine sucked balls until NWoD they nailed the other side of gaming cold. Typically that other side appeals to women. This ad is pretty spot on and is doing what it designed to do. I hate the direction NuWhite Wolf seems to be going but if successful I might be able to buy games I prefer at an actual physical outlet and not the POD route, which I hate and do under duress.

OK, care to explain this? Which is "the other side of gaming":)?
Is it "having a rich/involved setting and mostly freeform rules, or close to that"? That's what it seems to be from the context in this post, but I might be wrong.

Quote from: Marleycat;949508It will be, OP isn't about metaplot. They prefer toolkit games you customize yourself. And like Scion, this is their game using a different game engine then Storyteller or anything White Wolf.

It's a good thing metaplot wouldn't re-appear, but I've come to doubt that their toolkit games are better than, say, EABA or Savage Worlds:p.
Maybe they can offer a different approach that would make it work.

Quote from: Nexus;949513It always seemed like the claims of Vampire etc being the first rpgs to center of politics and interpersonal activity was in part driven on it being at least among the first to have detailed rules for those activities? Not sure if that's true or not and definition of "detailed" is subjective.

I wouldn't call the rules for interpersonal activity in V:tM "detailed", no. And the rules for politics were actually sketchier than that, IIRC.
So...maybe it did look detailed-ier back in 1991 I wouldn't know about that. But given the advice to Storytellers to ignore the rules whenever convenient, I really doubt that's the main reason for its popularity:D!
Or, for that reason, that any kind of rules had anything to do with its popularity.

My explanation is the much simpler, albeit probably un-PC "Goth chicks wanted to play vampires, V:tM allowed it, and everyone else really hoped to play with them, so they all played it";).

As a last note, it's not surprising that Vampire had more of an influence in literary circles:p. I'm pretty sure at least some of the "frustrated novelist GMs" came to the realization that Storytelling is much easier once you discard those pesky players!
And, well, practice makes perfect, so at least some of them were bound to succeed;)!

Warning: the above post may contain traces of humour, do not consume if it would trigger an allergy in your system!

Quote from: Voros;949416Totally agree, it's okay as an amateur first draft history of RPGs I guess but doesn't differentiate enough between the author's opinions, stuff he read on the net and actual facts.

I actually enjoyed reading it on the whole. While the specifics were vague, it was a nice outline that allowed me to remember games and companies I hadn't thought of in years. I got it as part of a Bundle of Holding, so I got my money's worth out of it.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949425So name the singular game that did it all first?

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949445Vampire centred on these things in a way that other games may have dabbled with or presented as interesting options in play, but they didn't centre the experience of playing these games in the same way Vampire did. Pendragon or Ars Magica being an example of this - you could play a dark, interpersonal game of personal angst and humanity within the remit of both - but in terms of the broader game it wasn't really their focus. They weren't centred on the idea.

It's odd to me to see Ars Magica as a mechanically lesser version of Vampire. Ars Magica was made my Mark Rein-Hagan and Jonathan Tweet, and there is no secret that Tweet was the mechanics guy. The mechanics in Ars Magica were well thought out and did what they were supposed to. Wherever Vampire borrowed an idea from Ars Magica, it was expressed more poorly in Vampire's mechanics.

Ars Magica also had a much better developed political environment. Players were members of Covenants, which were mechanical things that players could both draw upon and nurture through their actions. The use of a covenants resources and the direction of its growth provided plenty of reasons for PCs to engage in political conflict with one another. Then you have Covenants engaging with one another as part of a Tribunal.

Troupe style play also facilitated the politics of the game as well. In Ars Magica games that I ran, it was entirely possible for two PC mages to view each other as complete rivals. They never needed to adventure together simply because of the abstract nature of the player party. They still interacted in council meetings of the Covenant where they could plot against one another.

You can see the faded impression of Ars Magica in Vampire. The Traditions are similar to the Code of Hermes. You have coteries instead of covenants, but coteries don't have the same kind of mechanical development. It's a just a fancy name for the player party. The city is a similar thing to Tribunals, but the autocratic nature or Princes made them less interesting. Tribunals were democratic, allowing for all kind of complex dealmaking.

Ars Magica also had a system of personality traits with mechanical weight as well.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949481It was the first RPG, so it captured 100% of the market. Even if that market was only a handful of players at the time.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949483In order to capture a market you have to, y'know, sell something.

I don't understand the connection between influence and selling. Plenty of ideas have spread in humanity without being sold.

There are also more important considerations than number when dealing with influence. I don't know how many people ever played it, but it was played Arneson and inspired him. That alone makes it hugely influential.

I expect most public school teachers in America educate more students than Aristotle did in his life. Does that make them more influential, or does it matter more that Aristotle educated Alexander the Great?

Quote from: Nexus;949499Well, the "sure to piss everyone off" part of the thread title has sure proven to be true.

Not all of use pissed off. Some of us are laughing.

Quote from: Nexus;949513It always seemed like the claims of Vampire etc being the first rpgs to center of politics and interpersonal activity was in part driven on it being at least among the first to have detailed rules for those activities? Not sure if that's true or not and definition of "detailed" is subjective.

Vampire didn't have detailed rules politics and interpersonal activity by the standards of the time. We were coming out of the '80s, the golden age of crunch. I already mentioned how Ars Magica had far more detailed mechanics. My go-to game at the time Vampire came out was GURPS, and it already had more detailed rules for interpersonal interactions and social status than Vampire ever had.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949496Great, but it didn't do what Vampire did.

And for this we are forever grateful.

Quote from: Baulderstone;949599I already mentioned how Ars Magica had far more detailed mechanics. My go-to game at the time Vampire came out was GURPS, and it already had more detailed rules for interpersonal interactions and social status than Vampire ever had.

Fair enough, I suppose. It did compared to the games I was used too at the time but "detailed" is relative too so maybe I just wasn't using the more complex social systems.

Quote from: Baulderstone;949599It's odd to me to see Ars Magica as a mechanically lesser version of Vampire. Ars Magica was made my Mark Rein-Hagan and Jonathan Tweet, and there is no secret that Tweet was the mechanics guy. The mechanics in Ars Magica were well thought out and did what they were supposed to. Wherever Vampire borrowed an idea from Ars Magica, it was expressed more poorly in Vampire's mechanics.
Ars Magica also had a much better developed political environment. Players were members of Covenants, which were mechanical things that players could both draw upon and nurture through their actions. The use of a covenants resources and the direction of its growth provided plenty of reasons for PCs to engage in political conflict with one another. Then you have Covenants engaging with one another as part of a Tribunal.

Troupe style play also facilitated the politics of the game as well. In Ars Magica games that I ran, it was entirely possible for two PC mages to view each other as complete rivals. They never needed to adventure together simply because of the abstract nature of the player party. They still interacted in council meetings of the Covenant where they could plot against one another.

You can see the faded impression of Ars Magica in Vampire. The Traditions are similar to the Code of Hermes. You have coteries instead of covenants, but coteries don't have the same kind of mechanical development. It's a just a fancy name for the player party. The city is a similar thing to Tribunals, but the autocratic nature or Princes made them less interesting. Tribunals were democratic, allowing for all kind of complex dealmaking.

Ars Magica also had a system of personality traits with mechanical weight as well.

Well that is a matter of opinion isn't it? The things of note about Vampire in comparison to Ars Magica is this:

Ars Magica was still ostensibly a medieval fantasy game, whereas Vampire was expressly set in the modern nights. The presentation of game rules for Ars Magica was still mainly structured in terms of combat and magic (with lab rules and covenant design being important new developments), while the character sheets were still defined by a number of numerical stats spread out over several pages. The 'dots' on the Vampire sheet had an appreciable visual impact, and was mostly contained to a single page.

The mechanics themselves largely showed the trends of game design over time. When Vampire came out, the big innovation was the dice pool system that originated in Ghostbusters, but could be seen in Star Wars, Shadowrun and even Tweet's later Over The Edge. There were advantages to having multiple dice rolled at once - for example, there was no arbitration in having to decide how many botch dice to roll as there was in Ars Magica's core mechanic. In fact, I think that the major influence on Vampire's system was actually the dice-flipping mechanic from Prince Valiant for no other reason than it was so simple. The 'simple and elegant' approach was one of the appeals of Vampire, and was more of a priority than it was in Ars Magica.

Vampire, had a narrower focus than Ars Magica. Ars Magica was centred on playing wizards in an authentically feeling medieval world, but wizards themselves could be doing all sorts that had nothing to do with politics - creating magical items, getting into magical adventures, defending the covenant from external threats, exploration, going on vis hunts and the like. While there always Tribunals in the game, the Houses only became more detailed in supplements like Houses of Hermes, and it wasn't implicit to the game that you had to play politics. Most of the scenarios that were published for the game seemed to be about solving mysteries, really. In Vampire the set up made it implicit and the central aspect of play with the clans (and the follow on Clanbooks) all detailed separately at the core. Of course, you could argue that some gamers ignored all that and just ended up playing Trenchcoats and Katanas, but the intent is what I'm comparing here.  

While the Troupe style play was certainly interesting, what this did in effect was reinforce the concept of the Covenant as a character, or at least the central hub of the playing community. Indeed, this representation of community that is arguably the main thematic focus of of the game. But community doesn't necessarily involve the sort of dark, aggressive machevillian politics that Vampire was trying to emulate and satirise.  

The personality mechanics in Ars Magica - things like Aggressive +3 and so on - would come into play only as bonuses should they be applicable or tests if you couldn't decide how a character wanted to act in a given moment. In Vampire, they were more involved. There was both a Nature and a Demeanour for each character, which gave the "masquerade' motif in the game to each character in play. The Natures were based upon Jungian ideas, and provided mechanical rewards for achieving personal goals (Willpower points). They were an integral part of narrative development too, and these ideas were increasingly built on with the later Wraith: The Oblivion (also by Rein-Hagen) that explored the 'shadow play' of playing another character's dark side.  

No don't get me wrong - I am a big fan of Ars Magica, but the reason why it may not have broken through like Vampire did may well be because of the change in approach that is detailed above.

QuoteI don't understand the connection between influence and selling. Plenty of ideas have spread in humanity without being sold.

There are also more important considerations than number when dealing with influence. I don't know how many people ever played it, but it was played Arneson and inspired him. That alone makes it hugely influential.

I expect most public school teachers in America educate more students than Aristotle did in his life. Does that make them more influential, or does it matter more that Aristotle educated Alexander the Great?

Of course you also have to refer to how the invention of the printing press allowed the propagation of ideas from Aristotle and other philosophers that had been buried in vaults for years and kickstart the Renaissance. You could argue all sorts about what influences what, but with the spread of ideas you will always be limited if you can't publish them in a widespread way. However, to be blunt, I think the whole argument about Braunstein is a sideshow. It's an interesting antecedent of D&D, but has nothing to do with Vampire's development as a game in the early 90s where it occupied a curious position of having never been published while still being a forgotten piece of history at the time. Anywise, it's game play to me seems to be purely D&Dish still - minus Classes. On that basis, should we argue that RuneQuest wasn't a seminal game either?

QuoteVampire didn't have detailed rules politics and interpersonal activity by the standards of the time. We were coming out of the '80s, the golden age of crunch. I already mentioned how Ars Magica had far more detailed mechanics. My go-to game at the time Vampire came out was GURPS, and it already had more detailed rules for interpersonal interactions and social status than Vampire ever had.

Again, more of a matter of opinion here than a matter of fact. Vampire did have rules for politics and interpersonal activity. Think Generation, Nature & Demeanour, the Virtues, Humanity, rules for seduction, oration, interrogation, and credibility tests. The game was trying to present simple mechanics rather than detailed ones, but the attention social mechanics got was as much as was given for the combat system.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949496Great, but it didn't do what Vampire did.

No, its true, but then vampire didn't do what Braunstein did, either.

What it does do, however, is thoroughly debunk the assertions of SA and the quoted fellow used to advertise the WW documentary, which was rather the point.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949685No, its true, but then vampire didn't do what Braunstein did, either.

What it does do, however, is thoroughly debunk the assertions of SA and the quoted fellow used to advertise the WW documentary, which was rather the point.

How, precisely?

Candidate for new posterchild for insane troll logic.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949686How, precisely?

Sorry, I don't have the free time anymore to constantly repost the posts on this thread, it was a fun diversion while it lasted but I accept that logic just doesn't work against what someone really wants to believe.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949690Sorry, I don't have the free time anymore to constantly repost the posts on this thread, it was a fun diversion while it lasted but I accept that logic just doesn't work against what someone really wants to believe.

So in other words, you haven't got an argument.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949692So in other words, you haven't got an argument.

In other words, my argument has been thoroughly made and proven to the point the burden of proof no longer rests on my shoulders , and I'm satisfied with that.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949696In other words, my argument has been thoroughly made and proven to the point the burden of proof no longer rests on my shoulders , and I'm satisfied with that.

You haven't made an argument. You have made a statement that is unsubstantiated by any evidence or facts. I simply asked you to do so. Back it up or concede that you can't.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949697You haven't made an argument.

This entire thread is a testament to the thoroughness of my argument. The only thing left in contradiction of my magnificent avalanche of unchallenged truth is willful ignorance and fanatical denial. :)

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949699This entire thread is a testament to the thoroughness of my argument. The only thing left in contradiction of my magnificent avalanche of unchallenged truth is willful ignorance and fanatical denial. :)

No. It's not.

One more chance. You said:

QuoteWhat it does do, however, is thoroughly debunk the assertions of SA and the quoted fellow used to advertise the WW documentary, which was rather the point.

I merely asked "How, precisely?"

Back up your statement, without all your usual bullshit and prevarication, or accept that you can't and move on.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949700No. It's not.
.

As I said, willful ignorance and fanatical denial.

Still no attempt to back up your statement, just more bullshit and prevarication.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949704Still no attempt to back up your statement.

No reason to do something repeatedly in the same thread. Maybe in the next one.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949705No reason to do something repeatedly in the same thread. Maybe in the next one.

You haven't repeated anything other than failing to back up your statement. Again, just more bullshit and prevarication.

You're a coward, with Word of God pretensions.

If one or two lines in a trailer are parsed this much what can we expect when the doc itself is released?

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949706You're a coward, with Word of God pretensions.

Sounds like someone missed their nap time

Quote from: Voros;949707If one or two lines in a trailer are parsed this much what can we expect when the doc itself is released?

I'm really looking forward to it, it looks like great fun. Sure it's probably going to be chock-full of pretentious bullshit, but that just means it really captures what White Wolf was all about.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949708Sounds like someone missed their nap time

Sounds like you still can't make any worthwhile argument, Mr Poltroon.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949723whinging

Here you go (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.therpgsite.com%2Fshowthread.php%3F36202-New-White-Wolf-Doc-coming-and-its-going-to-piss-off-EVERYBODY)

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949728Here you go (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.therpgsite.com%2Fshowthread.php%3F36202-New-White-Wolf-Doc-coming-and-its-going-to-piss-off-EVERYBODY)

A gimmick isn't an argument either, oh yellow belly.

(http://static1.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/4931209+_021766515ce64efe411a51cffe937d4b.jpg)

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949731(http://static1.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/4931209+_021766515ce64efe411a51cffe937d4b.jpg)

More gimmicks but zero arguments from the craven one.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949458It's called ad hominem and it merely highlights the weakness in your own arguments.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51qdsBnXZVL._AC_UL320_SR280,320_.jpg)

You guys are just going to get Brendan to shut the thread down, which probably should have happened a while ago.

Quote from: CRKrueger;949740You guys are just going to get Brendan to shut the thread down, which probably should have happened a while ago.

yep.

Dont think there's much more to say regarding the video, anyways.

Quote from: CRKrueger;949740You guys are just going to get Brendan to shut the thread down, which probably should have happened a while ago.

+1...thousand

This thread died the death of the damned.
Totally suitable for Vampire, indeed.
Now all we need is for a moderator to close it with an admonition written in bloodred!

I don't want to close a thread because two posters are going at it. I'd rather they take that to PM and see if the thread has life of its own or dies a natural death.

Also, not saying this is necessarily the case here, but don't try to get a thread closed by shitting it up.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;949746I don't want to close a thread because two posters are going at it. I'd rather they take that to PM and see if the thread has life of its own or dies a natural death.

I will gladly let the bickering end where it's at.

The sad part is that neither White Wolf, Onyx Path, nor the current WoD fanbase realizes that personal horror was a flaw of WoD, not a merit. The real fun was the Trenchcoats & Katanas style of play, not whining like a little bitch about your lost Humanity or whatever. There's a reason why most people played T&K games in WW instead of boring and pretentious personal horror for so long. Once Revised Edition started swinging hard against the preferred style of gameplay as well as amping up the metaplot and forcing personal horror down everyone's throats, sales started tanking and WW had to torch the franchise and run, creating nWoD.

nWoD was a case of one step forward and two steps back. They did the right thing and got rid of the metaplot, but failed to remove the equally problematic issue of personal horror.

Always been curious, has anyone here managed to ever get together a game of Wraith as it was written, with players taking the role of The Shadow of other players?

Quote from: Doc Sammy;949755The sad part is that neither White Wolf, Onyx Path, nor the current WoD fanbase realizes that personal horror was a flaw of WoD, not a merit. The real fun was the Trenchcoats & Katanas style of play, not whining like a little Goth bitch about your lost Humanity or whatever. There's a reason why most people played T&K games in WW instead of boring and pretentious personal horror for so long. Once Revised Edition started swinging hard against the preferred style of gameplay as well as amping up the metaplot and forcing personal horror down everyone's throats, sales started tanking and WW had to torch the franchise and run, creating nWoD.

nWoD was a case of one step forward and two steps back. They did the right thing and got rid of the metaplot, but failed to remove the equally problematic issue of personal horror.

Stop being a petulant child, and realize your personal biases aren't objective fact.  You're too young for the "Old man yells at cloud." schtick.

Plenty of people enjoyed the many different ways to play WoD, T&K and personal horror included.   The oWoD problem was that it was always a "final nights", End Times setting.  Games Workshop can get away with never moving metaplot along, they sell wargames miniatures.  WW sells novels and roleplaying games.  At some point, the hammer has to fall, it's the natural result of an End Times metaplot.  They started a huge novel series about the coming of Gehenna/Apocalypse etc. so at some point it had to kick off.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949759Always been curious, has anyone here managed to ever get together a game of Wraith as it was written, with players taking the role of The Shadow of other players?

That part, yes. 1st edition. We had a group interested in playing it mostly focusing on the ghosts who haunt the living and ignoring Stygia and the whole metaplot. One of the issues we discovered with the game as-a-whole is that there is so much... stuff in the setting that if you include more than one or two bits of it, you can't really focus on the personal stories of the PCs (which is supposed to be a big part in Wraith). That, plus there is so much out there that does aggravated damage, that you don't end up going through harrowings much. Thus, we cut/ignored much of the game and played it a lot like Ghost (the movie) if Patrick Swayze had a really active inner monologue. It was an interesting challenge. You really had to know your character and the character you were shadow guide for.

Quote from: CRKrueger;949761The oWoD problem was that it was always a "final nights", End Times setting.  Games Workshop can get away with never moving metaplot along, they sell wargames miniatures.  WW sells novels and roleplaying games.  At some point, the hammer has to fall, it's the natural result of an End Times metaplot.  They started a huge novel series about the coming of Gehenna/Apocalypse etc. so at some point it had to kick off.

Well, they set it up that way, so yes they had to eventually pull the trigger. But could they have set it up as a static setting? Did the WoD setting need to be moving towards something? Not that it's a great comparison, but I know plenty of people who would much prefer that they stop 'updating' Forgotten Realms and just keep reintroducing the setting each edition at the same year and those people who follow the novels just accept that the 'baseline setting' is slightly out of date.

Quote from: Voros;949707If one or two lines in a trailer are parsed this much what can we expect when the doc itself is released?

They'll be blood on the moon! Geek shall war with nerd until the streets run red! Dogs and cats living together! Total Chaos!

* frantically strikes flint against steel trying to get sparks * Dammit!  Dammit!  Dammit!

Quote from: CRKrueger;949761Games Workshop can get away with never moving metaplot along, they sell wargames miniatures.  WW sells novels and roleplaying games.

I think GW does actually have Archon come down from the Chaos Wastes periodically.  He razes a few cities and then gets driven back.  So no huge changes.  (Until the whole Age of Sigmar crap.)

Same thing in 40k with The Eye of Terror.

But you're right - they do it pretty well.  The mechanics & blatant power-creep are the reasons I stopped buying GW stuff (plus a lack of free time :P) rather than metaplot reasons.

Quote from: CRKrueger;949761Stop being a petulant child, and realize your personal biases aren't objective fact.  You're too young for the "Old man yells at cloud." schtick.

You mean I am not the only one thinking of that?

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949473Great, except it wasn't ever published as a RPG. It's an antecedent to roleplaying, albeit an interesting and worthy one.

This. It was never published, as it's not a set of rules but a play style.

The 2008 thing is a set of medieval miniatures rules, and bears as much of a relationship to the way the good Major (and I, his acolyte) run these games as my bath slippers do to D&D - in any edition. (See also the posts on my blog for how I run these games.)

Quote from: Doc Sammy;949755The sad part is that neither White Wolf, Onyx Path, nor the current WoD fanbase realizes that personal horror was a flaw of WoD, not a merit.

Actually, I'm going to focus on this, and go on a teeny rant here.  Here we go:

The problem I've always had with 'Horror', not just the so-called 'Personal' kind is that it's hard to do it in an intimate situation when you're with friends.  The whole point of fear is rather personal in general, it's characterized by isolation and the unknown.  Most gamer groups, especially those who have played for a while, and actually like each other (and my contention is that if you aren't friends, why the hell are you gaming together...) have none of those factors.  It works in movies because you're (the general, not the specific) not participating, but rather watching and experiencing through proxy.  You have no agency, unlike an RPG.

Oh, I know there are people who will claim that they've had pretty scary CoC sessions and other crap like that, but I honestly don't believe it, because there's a built in mechanic to help a player get into the mindset:  Sanity.  And it NEEDS to be there, or no one will buy into it.  Which is also unrealistic, because most RPGs are run in groups, and in a lot of Lovecraft stories, there's often just one survivor, alone, unbelieved, no support structure with like minded individuals, which would help them.  We are social animals, and if we have people around us, who have been 'there', we don't go 'insane', we might seem insane, but we KNOW what we experienced was 'true', because everyone who was involved and survived, was there.  We are a tribal species, and we need people like 'us' to function at all.

Getting back to the point above, to which I agree with, is that Personal Horror can't happen unless the characters are alone and isolated.  Which when surrounded by friends is simply, and often is impossibly, too hard to actually happen.

/Rant off

Wow, apparently this is serious business. 0_0

Anyway, it's not a #Documentary, but an ad to appeal to the folks with money. Problem is it doesn't appeal to anyone. On  the contrary, it's embarrassing. Also needs more cowbell.

But let's be honest, the original Vampire was an accidental masterpiece. It caught a cultural #Zeitgeist and rode it for all it was worth. And even its flaws were responsible for creating the #Indie scene. So regardless of how much of what it did was done before, it made a far wider impact.

Quote from: Voros;949025Also the clips from this D&D Documentary were very promising but now the entire project is dead due to a legal dispute by the filmmakers among themselves (ironically echoing the legal dispute between Arneson and Gygax).

Seems like nobody in this 'community' can get along.

Quote from: jeff37923;949265That impact was pretty negative where I was. The fucking antics of Vampire LARPers managed to shut down conventions in the Seattle and Sea-Tac area.

Innnteresting. I wish to subscribe to this newsletter.

Quote from: Piestrio;949346The only people I've ever seen "kicked out" of anything geek related have been harmless fat socially retarded neck-beards for stepping afoul of some social "rule" the anointed just discovered 13 seconds ago to inflate their own unearned moral superiority.

HEY! Who'ya calling a fat socially retarded neck beard?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;949866Actually, I'm going to focus on this, and go on a teeny rant here.  Here we go:

The problem I've always had with 'Horror', not just the so-called 'Personal' kind is that it's hard to do it in an intimate situation when you're with friends.  The whole point of fear is rather personal in general, it's characterized by isolation and the unknown.  

Very much disagree. There are many paths to horror, and isolation and the unknown are only two of them. And I honestly can't see it working if not in an intimate situation with friends.

Question!!!

Did anyone mix WoD with Trinity?

AKA, did you crossover any bits?

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949489Oh, and I hope they finally fully integrate the free-form Psychic system.

Was this every published?

If so, how does it play at the table? I'm a fan of freeform magic systems, but I find most players just use it to create slightly modified D&D spells.

Quote from: Marleycat;949508It will be, OP isn't about metaplot. They prefer toolkit games you customize yourself. And like Scion, this is their game using a different game engine then Storyteller or anything White Wolf.

What game engine would they use for the Aeon Trinity?

Quote from: Doc Sammy;949755The real fun was the Trenchcoats & Katanas style of play, not whining like a little bitch about your lost Humanity or whatever.

Did you ever read Nightbane by Palladium?

They did T&K super monsters really well. And its easy to convert to the system of your choice. I've run it with BESM / SAS just fine.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949759Always been curious, has anyone here managed to ever get together a game of Wraith as it was written, with players taking the role of The Shadow of other players?

Did a one-shot demo at a con when it came out. Interesting ideas with interesting gameplay, but I felt it needed a specific dedicated group of players.

Even more than Whispering Vault.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;949866Oh, I know there are people who will claim that they've had pretty scary CoC sessions and other crap like that, but I honestly don't believe it, because there's a built in mechanic to help a player get into the mindset:  Sanity.

Players choose to scare themselves.

A group of people can watch a horror film at home with the lights on, taking cell phone calls and jabbering and joking, then tell you the movie wasn't scary.

Another group can watch the same horror film in the theater, in the dark, their phones off and mouths shut, then tell you that same movie was really scary.

Suspension of disbelief is a choice.

Players in a RPG can choose to do so and there are rules that can help (like SAN loss) and actions the GM can do to enhance the immersion.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;949866Which is also unrealistic, because most RPGs are run in groups, and in a lot of Lovecraft stories, there's often just one survivor, alone, unbelieved, no support structure with like minded individuals, which would help them.

This is true.

CoC doesn't emulate HPL's stories. It's a Lovecraftian RPG, not a Lovecraft emulator.

In actual play, its more like X-files or Supernatural without the actors having plot immunity.

However, its not rocket science to have the CoC PCs be without external support or belief and be treated as a group of lunatics. And, if the GM wants to, there are LOTS of techniques to mess with the PCs / players concept of whether or not what is happening is real.

I run CoC with the concept that the Dreamlands cross over to certain dark and lonely places in our world. When you go there, "reality" plays by different rules and even the rules can change.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;949866Getting back to the point above, to which I agree with, is that Personal Horror can't happen unless the characters are alone and isolated.

I am unclear how we are defining Personal Horror vs. Regular Horror.

What do y'all mean by Personal Horror?

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;949876Also needs more cowbell.

Even cowbell needs more cowbell.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;949876But let's be honest, the original Vampire was an accidental masterpiece. It caught a cultural #Zeitgeist and rode it for all it was worth. And even its flaws were responsible for creating the #Indie scene. So regardless of how much of what it did was done before, it made a far wider impact.

Very true.

Quote from: Spinachcat;949885Question!!!
I am unclear how we are defining Personal Horror vs. Regular Horror.

What do y'all mean by Personal Horror?

Let me explain what has been explained to me:

Personal horror is a bit angsty, but its about the 'realization' about the fact that you're a monster, and perhaps not knowing how to stop being one.

Horror is about powerlessness, roughly.  Isolation and the unknown play heavily into it, but it's external.

The thing is, powerlessness and helplessness are things that rpgs excel at conveying. The tricky line, I've found, is walking that line between horror and frustration.

The WOD have never been horror games. They are monster games. Games about playing the monster. Who are usually the perpetrators of the horror.

The point of view is important. A perpetrator doesn't feel anywhere near the same level of horror that the victims of it do. There is no equivalency there. They are two very different points of views and conditions.

Games like Call Of Cthulhu, Chill, Beyond The Supernatural, and the rest of their type of game focus on one thing. The characters who invariably become witness to or subject to the horror. They are keenly aware of how helpless they are in the face of whatever they are facing. They feel true fear.

I do have some issues because of my upbringing with people who want to play "sympathy for the devil". Trying to cast the evil, nasty, and monstrous in a sympathetic light. It's not something I am comfortable with. or something I would really like in my gaming.

Perpetrators, monsters. They are always in a position of power. Simply because of what they happen to be. They do not feel helplessness and fear to the same degree as those without that power.

Aberrant/Adventure/Aeon/Trinity will use Onyx Path's in house game engine. Unlike the WoD games they have full freedom to do anything they want with those games and Cavaliers of Mars and Scion. They have to stay with the Storyteller system in the other cases even though they have ideas and the desire to use other game engines that would probably be a far better fit for the WoD.

We were tempted to try mixing the WoD and Trinity similar to Armageddon/Witchcraft but the base assumptions are too different and Trinity was just one part of three games in the same universe at different points of the same timeline with wildly different base assumptions and power levels. One is a horror/monster/endtimes game and the other is a superhero/transhuman/with big elements of spacefaring and being at the beginning of humanity's potential game after the apocalyspe happened (Trinity). Basically Urban Fantasy/Horror vs Science Fiction. Interestingly I think that the new edition with 7 different settings ranging from Adventure (Pulp fiction like Indiana Jones and similar) to Trinity (modern times like John Wick and similar) to Aberrant (four color heroes/villains in the very near future) to Aeon (full psi's, transhumanism, space travel and both near/deep space human colonies and aliens) and something announced but not titled set in the far future like Fading Suns, Ellipse Phase, Warhammer 40k are my current guesses) and some settings that are announced but not titled right after Aberrant but before Aeon and something possibly in the 1950's or 1960's or 1970's. Might actually play better with the WoD.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949759Always been curious, has anyone here managed to ever get together a game of Wraith as it was written, with players taking the role of The Shadow of other players?

Yes. Although in practice it doesn't really work with a group any bigger than three, and you need a collective buy in to make it really effective. That said, it works really intensely if you get it right.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;949876But let's be honest, the original Vampire was an accidental masterpiece. It caught a cultural #Zeitgeist and rode it for all it was worth. And even its flaws were responsible for creating the #Indie scene. So regardless of how much of what it did was done before, it made a far wider impact.

I have been of a mind to agree with that - I think that D&D was something of an accidental masterpiece too, incidentally. However, I did read up about just how much work went into the marketing of the game first. Apparently, it was coordinated to the degree that White Wolf gave away thousands of copies for free just to get the buzz out. And the design features were quite deliberate and planned out into the future too (it was always planned, for example to do multiple games set in the same world, or the build up of splat books and the like). So actually, I'm really not sure how much of an accident it was.

I've always wanted to at least read the Shoah supplement for Wraith to see how one would even try to pull that off.

Quote from: Spinachcat;949885Was this every published?

If so, how does it play at the table? I'm a fan of freeform magic systems, but I find most players just use it to create slightly modified D&D spells..

I think it was published actually, in one of the companion supplements - but I can't recall which one. The blurb I heard was that they had always intended to do a free-form system in the same manner as Mage: The Ascension (minus the mystical themes, though) but the game came out in such a rush that they just didn't have time to polish it up in time, so they went with a more structured safer system. I've played plenty of Mage, and seen some incredibly creative uses around the game table with it, but I've not seen it used for Trinity as of yet.

Quote from: Voros;949918I've always wanted to at least read the Shoah supplement for Wraith to see how one would even try to pull that off.

I have the supplement, which is a powerful read, although in all honesty I felt it was too uncomfortable for me to try to bring it into a game like Wraith.

The approach we had was on very small personal tales for the PCs. The themes were still quite heavy - things like personal regrets in life - and so on. It was very, very existential in tone. However, the shadow play actually lends a lot of dynamism to the narrative in play - it gives other players something to do if the limelight is off their own character for a while and the interplay can actually get quite vicious with some difficult decisions being forced on the characters to proceed with.

Quote from: Spinachcat;949885I am unclear how we are defining Personal Horror vs. Regular Horror.

What do y'all mean by Personal Horror?

In terms of the Vampire five-word-summary-blurb, I think that 'personal horror' was simply referring to the fact that you were playing the monster.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949919I think it was published actually, in one of the companion supplements - but I can't recall which one. The blurb I heard was that they had always intended to do a free-form system in the same manner as Mage: The Ascension (minus the mystical themes, though) but the game came out in such a rush that they just didn't have time to polish it up in time, so they went with a more structured safer system. I've played plenty of Mage, and seen some incredibly creative uses around the game table with it, but I've not seen it used for Trinity as of yet.

I think I saw it in the Player's Companion but it needed serious work in my opinion. It'd be wonderful if the new Aeon went more freeform. Even something like DA Faye might work. Anyway the point is Trinity was far too limited/structured far too Vampire like in my opinion for the fluff and what it said full Psions were supposed to be able to do and how they were regarded by the normals.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;949889Personal horror is a bit angsty, but its about the 'realization' about the fact that you're a monster, and perhaps not knowing how to stop being one.

I don't remember either of those expressed mechanically in V:tM. Am I wrong?

Also, as becoming a Vampire / Werewolf / Whatever is a power fantasy, what other answer than "Kewl Powers! I rock!" should be expected from players?

V:tM Vamps were stylish superheroes who had a cool secret club. What's to be bummed about? Lack of sunlight? No tan lines? Eating people?

Like we all don't have THAT list in our back pocket.

Quote from: Marleycat;949911Aberrant/Adventure/Aeon/Trinity will use Onyx Path's in house game engine.

What's it like?

Feel free to start its own thread too!

Quote from: Marleycat;949926Anyway the point is Trinity was far too limited/structured far too Vampire like in my opinion for the fluff and what it said full Psions were supposed to be able to do and how they were regarded by the normals.

There were issues in Trinity between the fluff and the crunch regarding Psions and Aberrants.

Also, there were oddities in how Psions were supposed to be regarded by the normals. That's one of the reasons I nuked the metaplot from day one. My campaign takes place on one of the far Earth colonies cut off when the teleporters vanished. There are 10 Psions on the planet and 100,00 colonists, and the planet is a secret alien superweapon which is slowly discovered in the course of the campaign. Oh, the Aberrants...want to ignite the weapon against Earth.

Quote from: Spinachcat;949937I don't remember either of those expressed mechanically in V:tM. Am I wrong?

Also, as becoming a Vampire / Werewolf / Whatever is a power fantasy, what other answer than "Kewl Powers! I rock!" should be expected from players?

V:tM Vamps were stylish superheroes who had a cool secret club. What's to be bummed about? Lack of sunlight? No tan lines? Eating people?

Like we all don't have THAT list in our back pocket.




What's it like?

Feel free to start its own thread too!




There were issues in Trinity between the fluff and the crunch regarding Psions and Aberrants.

Also, there were oddities in how Psions were supposed to be regarded by the normals. That's one of the reasons I nuked the metaplot from day one. My campaign takes place on one of the far Earth colonies cut off when the teleporters vanished. There are 10 Psions on the planet and 100,00 colonists, and the planet is a secret alien superweapon which is slowly discovered in the course of the campaign. Oh, the Aberrants...want to ignite the weapon against Earth.

Have no idea about the system I'm not a play tester. They did release a version of it somewhere on the OP forums months ago but I'm not game designer/dice probability girl so I had no idea what it meant or how it's supposed to work. I know the hold up is the fact the writer's have been dealing with IRL things and they want to make sure they can get the most kinks out as reasonably possible it's the same system as the new Scion if that helps. Your game sounds like you got it right or on the right track. Psion's are powerful and respected because they aren't even more powerful and batshit insane like Aberrants. The very terms should tip people off to this you'd think?

Quote from: Spinachcat;949937I don't remember either of those expressed mechanically in V:tM. Am I wrong?

The Nature aspect if character provided certain actions necessary to gain Willpower, and there were traits for Self-Control, Courage, Conscience and Humanity. Whenever you carried out a questionably monstrous action there were dice to roll and a track to keep on these traits. A loss of Humanity had impact over things like torpor or mental stability. If you lost control, you could Frenzy for example. Characters degenerate over time, in the same way Sanity drops in CoC. There are a lot of 'superhero with fangs' elements to Vampire, but it's not true to suggest that there weren't interpersonal mechanics too.

QuoteWhat's it like?

It's the same system used for the new edition of Scion too. It's very slick and well presented, and it's plucked a few ideas out from other more recent games (I noticed the Cortex Plus method of handling initiative, for example).

Quote from: Spinachcat;949937I don't remember either of those expressed mechanically in V:tM. Am I wrong?

Mechanically, Vampire's a pretty atypical system, with most of the rules focused on combat.

I know there's people who really hate the system, but I always found it perfectly functional. Its not a system I'd go out of my way to use again, but I didn't have any major issues with it. But it's also nothing extraordinary or revolutionary.

Quote from: Voros;949918I've always wanted to at least read the Shoah supplement for Wraith to see how one would even try to pull that off.

I read it, it wasn't a badly researched or presented book. Certainly wasnt ignorantly offensive in the manner of WOD: Gypsy or Isle of The Mighty.

 I just thought the subject matter would be a bit tasteless as the subject for the game. Maybe in a century or two.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949759Always been curious, has anyone here managed to ever get together a game of Wraith as it was written, with players taking the role of The Shadow of other players?

Yep. I Gmed it once and I know someone else did too and one of the shadow players in theirs was really freaky. I was also asked to play the disembodied shadow voice for someones planned session that never got off the ground.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949943I read it, it wasn't a badly researched or presented book. Certainly wasnt ignorantly offensive in the manner of WOD: Gypsy or Isle of The Mighty.

 I just thought the subject matter would be a bit tasteless as the subject for the game. Maybe in a century or two.

Therein is the issue and why it was offensive. At least wait until the generation that lived it is dead and better yet their children. WW2, Hitler and why he started the "Final Solution" isn't even describable by being racist. It was a combination of publicly acceptable arrogance, hatred, jealousy and racism. I'm not Jewish but I can easily see this happening in the right environment and can see it happening again at the drop of the hat in our current environment.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949941Whenever you carried out a questionably monstrous action there were dice to roll and a track to keep on these traits. A loss of Humanity had impact over things like torpor or mental stability.

Thank you! I thought I remembered something in the rules that tempered PCs from going psycho with the bloodletting, but I don't remember it coming up much in play. I remember having PCs with low Humanity, but I remembered it as a chargen aspect.

Did you see the "degeneration over time" being a usual part of V:tM campaigns?

Quote from: Spinachcat;949966Thank you! I thought I remembered something in the rules that tempered PCs from going psycho with the bloodletting, but I don't remember it coming up much in play. I remember having PCs with low Humanity, but I remembered it as a chargen aspect.

Did you see the "degeneration over time" being a usual part of V:tM campaigns?

You had three capped meters made directly by your choices in character generation which were promptly ignored by EVERYONE. Because Blade is cool and Lestat sucks. Even though the entire game was created off the premise of Lestat. Kind of like paradox was supposed to kick your ass in MtAsc or be something you risk in MtAw and control in MtAw because the latter is about power and no limits and control of your magic while the former is about the universe hates you because you have the cheat codes and refuses to forget it and still tries to nail you.

So yes, if you didn't play the game as Blade and it's baseline assumptions.

Quote from: Spinachcat;949966Did you see the "degeneration over time" being a usual part of V:tM campaigns?

Yes. Because the daily routine of vampires was to hunt, or at least access some blood supply in order to fuel their powers (which i turn were largely tools used to hunt with) and be able to stay active (rather than torpor), it was only a matter of time before characters would either make morally dubious choices and/or Frenzy with regrettable acts. The Humanity score would inevitably be pushed downwards, which in turn made the characters more susceptible to frenzy, etc. There was a downwards spiral.

It was possibly an underplayed mechanic in some groups, and arguably vaguely written in the rules at times, but in practice it captured a theme of degeneration over time for our group at least.

Quote from: Marleycat;949953but I can easily see this happening in the right environment and can see it happening again at the drop of the hat in our current environment.

Oh, it already has, if you've heard of the Yezidis.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949977Oh, it already has, if you've heard of the Yezidis.

I haven't but now you've made me sad. So explain already.:(

I prefer when my tinfoil hat is totally wrong don't you know? It's when I find out just how much Exarchs and Seers are repenisibable that I wish I was a mage of the Diamond, assholes or not. At least I could take them on straight up. I really like the Silver Ladder but it's pretty obvious I'd be an Adamantine Arrow in the Awakened Gambit legacy.:)

Ventrue is the Silver Ladder equivalent. Adamantine Arrow isn't really Brujah they aren't about politics, socialism or democracy that's the Free Council's thing. They're about oaths and service like a first responder.

Quote from: Marleycat;949987I haven't but now you've made me sad. So explain already.:(

They were a group of Kurds, who followed an obscure religion related to, but distinct from, Islam. I think a small number of them managed to escape to Germany and Canada, but the genocide has almost been complete. In the single Sinjar Massacre around 5000 were killed, and an estimated 7000 of their women and children sold into slavery. This is after being subjected to Saddam's forced "Arabization process" for close to a decade, which is pretty much as awful as it sounds.

I first became aware of the Yezidis (or Yazidis, as its commonly transliterated in American) in my teens from a footnote in Gustav Davidson's Dictionary of Angels. They have a fascinating religion in which the colour blue is taboo and its believed "the devil" (the so-called peacock angel Melek-Taus, linguistically linked to the Caananite god Moloch) is destined to be forgiven by God and return to his side.

In the early 00s I found a small, heartbreaking, website by some refugees pleading for help to transcribe some of their sacred texts electronically so they were not permanently lost.

"Very sad now". Can nothing be done now? Hell we killed the bastard and basically run the country such as it is.

Quote from: Marleycat;949999"Very sad now". Can nothing be done now? He'll we killed the bastard and basically run the country such as it is.

There's a UN initiative to save them, but they've been a primary target of ISIL, who basically took over the mountain caves they'd originally retreated to, so its a complex situation. Some of the women sold into slavery were rescued, and are actually now participating in the Syrian militia fights with ISIL. Sadly though, with a population that was, at its peak, only around 40,000, and facing persecution from basically every regime in the Middle East thus far, I don't know how certain they are to have a future.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;950000There's a UN initiative to save them, but they've been a primary target of ISIL, who basically took over the mountain caves they'd originally retreated to, so its a complex situation. Some of the women sold into slavery were rescued, and are actually now participating in the Syrian militia fights with ISIL. Sadly though, with a population that was, at its peak, only around 40,000, and facing persecution from basically every regime in the Middle East thus far, I don't know how certain they are to have a future.

Wow. We tried to do right thing but we can't as a nation mess around with the Middle East anymore. It's a straight up cesspool and dumpster fire of hatred and ignorance. I worked in Suadi Arabia for a year. Also why do you think anybody with the means are trying their best to get the hell out?

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;949894The WOD have never been horror games. They are monster games. Games about playing the monster. Who are usually the perpetrators of the horror.

The point of view is important. A perpetrator doesn't feel anywhere near the same level of horror that the victims of it do. There is no equivalency there. They are two very different points of views and conditions.

Games like Call Of Cthulhu, Chill, Beyond The Supernatural, and the rest of their type of game focus on one thing. The characters who invariably become witness to or subject to the horror. They are keenly aware of how helpless they are in the face of whatever they are facing. They feel true fear.

I do have some issues because of my upbringing with people who want to play "sympathy for the devil". Trying to cast the evil, nasty, and monstrous in a sympathetic light. It's not something I am comfortable with. or something I would really like in my gaming.

Perpetrators, monsters. They are always in a position of power. Simply because of what they happen to be. They do not feel helplessness and fear to the same degree as those without that power.

Quote from: Spinachcat;949937Also, as becoming a Vampire / Werewolf / Whatever is a power fantasy, what other answer than "Kewl Powers! I rock!" should be expected from players?

V:tM Vamps were stylish superheroes who had a cool secret club. What's to be bummed about? Lack of sunlight? No tan lines? Eating people?

This is certainly how it played out for a lot of people playing the games. But the games--as I understand it to have been intended--was that the powerlessness of not being truly in control of yourself was the horror of being a monster. Sure you were superheroes in that you could run fast as a speeding bullet or leap tall buildings (/control minds/be invisible/whatever), but doing so (or just existing as a being who could do so) would turn you into something less than human in terms of autonomy, self-reliance, and status on the social insider/pariah scale.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949972Yes. Because the daily routine of vampires was to hunt, or at least access some blood supply in order to fuel their powers (which i turn were largely tools used to hunt with) and be able to stay active (rather than torpor), it was only a matter of time before characters would either make morally dubious choices and/or Frenzy with regrettable acts. The Humanity score would inevitably be pushed downwards, which in turn made the characters more susceptible to frenzy, etc. There was a downwards spiral.

It was possibly an underplayed mechanic in some groups, and arguably vaguely written in the rules at times, but in practice it captured a theme of degeneration over time for our group at least.

It could be managed with very careful role play though. Somehow we managed to keep Humanity scores that were somewhat higher than most mortals in our campaign. even thwarting some GM moral gotchas a couple of times. He used to jokingly call our Corterie the Nicest Vampires in Chicago which I guess wasn't far from wrong. But the game rarely felt like "superheroes with fangs".

Quote from: Nexus;950043It could be managed with very careful role play though.

Presumably, all vampires do that to one degree or another, they just call it "keeping the Beast at bay";)!

QuoteSomehow we managed to keep Humanity scores that were somewhat higher than most mortals in our campaign. even thwarting some GM moral gotchas a couple of times. He used to jokingly call our Corterie the Nicest Vampires in Chicago which I guess wasn't far from wrong.

You mean "far from true"?

QuoteBut the game rarely felt like "superheroes with fangs".

And that's why many PCs didn't manage it all that well:D!

Are the new Trinity games going to use the Storypath system? Anyone had a chance to look over it?

Yes Trinity will use storypath.  There is a mechanic I like, but a mechanic I hate.  Mind you I read this a year ago so things could had change by now.

The mechanic I like is the more powerful you are the easier rolls become.  Example mortals in scion need to roll 8, or higher to get a success on a die.  Heroes reduce that to 7, demigods to 6, and gods to 5.  That ten dice pool starts to grant more successes the more power you have.

Now the mechanic I hate.  Everyone shares a pool of power to use abilities.  Once you spend energy the GM converts that energy to evil energy that npcs have access too.  So the more energy you use the more empowered the npcs become.  This will just lead to battles of attrition which are not fun.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;950018This is certainly how it played out for a lot of people playing the games. But the games--as I understand it to have been intended--was that the powerlessness of not being truly in control of yourself was the horror of being a monster. Sure you were superheroes in that you could run fast as a speeding bullet or leap tall buildings (/control minds/be invisible/whatever), but doing so (or just existing as a being who could do so) would turn you into something less than human in terms of autonomy, self-reliance, and status on the social insider/pariah scale.

Pretty much.

You go back and look at early Vampire, and on the character sheet it has stats for things like "Humanity" and "Self-Control" and "Conscience" and "Willpower".  Later editions -did- drift away from these things; Willpower became a mental combat/die adder stat, Humanity and its Virtues were replaced with the Path of Doing Whatever I Wanted To Do Anyway and its rather beastly Virtues.  But originally, the idea of struggling to not become a monstrous freak was a key element of Vampire's thematic and mechanical design.  

To some extent though, this change in theme was kind of to be expected.  A vampire would either come to terms with things quickly and accept their existence, or else burn out.  The whole "struggle to retain one's humanity" angle would become old hat after a while, both in and out of character.  And you stop playing through the Hunt every time, because it gets boring and repetitive; it's not just a sense of ennui for the character, but the player too, and that's not fun.   So the game starts throwing around an ever expanding (and ever more bizarre) Jyhad, to give PCs and Players both an excuse to interject some fresh new thing to deal with (usually violently, because violence is easier to play with than profound explorations of reconciling existentialist nihilism with the urge to connect to others).

Quote from: Snowman0147;950066Now the mechanic I hate.  Everyone shares a pool of power to use abilities.  Once you spend energy the GM converts that energy to evil energy that npcs have access too.  So the more energy you use the more empowered the npcs become.  This will just lead to battles of attrition which are not fun.

Doesn't Mutant Chronicles do something similar?  Seems like I'm hearing more and more systems using similar mechanics to this.

Quote from: Snowman0147;950066Yes Trinity will use storypath.  There is a mechanic I like, but a mechanic I hate.  Mind you I read this a year ago so things could had change by now.

The mechanic I like is the more powerful you are the easier rolls become.  Example mortals in scion need to roll 8, or higher to get a success on a die.  Heroes reduce that to 7, demigods to 6, and gods to 5.  That ten dice pool starts to grant more successes the more power you have.

That does sound interesting.

QuoteNow the mechanic I hate.  Everyone shares a pool of power to use abilities.  Once you spend energy the GM converts that energy to evil energy that npcs have access too.  So the more energy you use the more empowered the npcs become.  This will just lead to battles of attrition which are not fun.

Quote from: san dee jota;950070Doesn't Mutant Chronicles do something similar?  Seems like I'm hearing more and more systems using similar mechanics to this.

It sounds like the Doom(Momentum?)/Dark Synergy mechanics from another system....

Quote from: Snowman0147;950066Now the mechanic I hate.  Everyone shares a pool of power to use abilities.  Once you spend energy the GM converts that energy to evil energy that npcs have access too.  So the more energy you use the more empowered the npcs become.  This will just lead to battles of attrition which are not fun.

Oh joy, another game which forces an OOC metagame decision behind every use of a Core Mechanic.

Quote from: Nexus;950071That does sound interesting.





It sounds like the Doom(Momentum?)/Dark Synergy mechanics from another system....

Sounds like the DOOM mechanic. Both Scion and Trinity use variants of the baseline system tailored to each game. So I expect things will have been changed from last year before the system was actually nothing more then a prototype. Especially in Trinity Continuum's case given the baseline assumptions for the game line is pretty much the opposite of the CroD from the line developer himself. Where the latter is all about 50 shades of dark the former is much more there's some light grey in the mix because the world isn't utopia and humanity isn't perfect.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;950018This is certainly how it played out for a lot of people playing the games. But the games--as I understand it to have been intended--was that the powerlessness of not being truly in control of yourself was the horror of being a monster. Sure you were superheroes in that you could run fast as a speeding bullet or leap tall buildings (/control minds/be invisible/whatever), but doing so (or just existing as a being who could do so) would turn you into something less than human in terms of autonomy, self-reliance, and status on the social insider/pariah scale.

There were no consequences to it. No real enforceable down side. And those players knew it and took full advantage of that fact.

The LARP scene is where I saw the worst absence of consequences. Where the ST just doesn't pay attention to anyone other than a small group of friends and favorites. And just ignored everybody else that was there.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949917I have been of a mind to agree with that - I think that D&D was something of an accidental masterpiece too, incidentally. There's a lot in fandom that happened to

Indeed. #StarWars immediately comes to mind.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949917However, I did read up about just how much work went into the marketing of the game first. Apparently, it was coordinated to the degree that White Wolf gave away thousands of copies for free just to get the buzz out. And the design features were quite deliberate and planned out into the future too (it was always planned, for example to do multiple games set in the same world, or the build up of splat books and the like). So actually, I'm really not sure how much of an accident it was.

Having a plan and being successful with it are rather different things :)

Quote from: Voros;949918I've always wanted to at least read the Shoah supplement for Wraith to see how one would even try to pull that off.

Respectfully.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;949943I just thought the subject matter would be a bit tasteless as the subject for the game.

As opposed to a book, comic, movie, play, comedy...

Quote from: Marleycat;949953Therein is the issue and why it was offensive.

It was? To whom?

Quote from: Marleycat;949953At least wait until the generation that lived it is dead and better yet their children. WW2, Hitler and why he started the "Final Solution" isn't even describable by being racist. It was a combination of publicly acceptable arrogance, hatred, jealousy and racism. I'm not Jewish but I can easily see this happening in the right environment and can see it happening again at the drop of the hat in our current environment.

Then it's not your place to say we should wait, especially when you claim you can see this sort of genocide "happening again at the drop of the hat in our current environment".

In the meantime, if it's good enough for #HarlanEllison, it's good enough for me.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;950133As opposed to a book, comic, movie, play, comedy...

The implication being that different forms of art are analogous to a game. I don't think that's the case.

QuoteIn the meantime, if it's good enough for #HarlanEllison, it's good enough for me.

I don't know what that means, what has Harlan Ellison got to say on the matter? And why would his opinion be worthwhile?

Quote from: TrippyHippy;949972It was possibly an underplayed mechanic in some groups, and arguably vaguely written in the rules at times, but in practice it captured a theme of degeneration over time for our group at least.

Sounds like I need to reread the rules because it was definitely underplayed by GMs I knew.

I ran Werewolf (never ran V:tM) and certainly "hold back the beast within...or not" was a regular theme.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;950133Indeed. #StarWars immediately comes to mind.



Having a plan and being successful with it are rather different things :)



Respectfully.



As opposed to a book, comic, movie, play, comedy...



It was? To whom?



Then it's not your place to say we should wait, especially when you claim you can see this sort of genocide "happening again at the drop of the hat in our current environment".

In the meantime, if it's good enough for #HarlanEllison, it's good enough for me.

Are you being serious? Personally I don't think so and think you're trolling. Harlan Ellison is/was a bitter old man and huge asshat that is/was just a guy who wrote science fiction/cyberpunk books. He isn't an authority on anything that actually affects real people. For example you don't have to be Jewish to know Hitler did bad things against many minorities but especially against people that happened to believe in Judaism. Put in a modern context you don't have to be Syrian to understand something bad is going on in Syria and that there are some seriously evil and bad apples in charge in that area of the world.

Quote from: Spinachcat;949937I don't remember either of those expressed mechanically in V:tM. Am I wrong?

That was the point of the Humanity track.  It didn't work out that way, but that was the intent.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;950191That was the point of the Humanity track.  It didn't work out that way, but that was the intent.

Right and that tied into the chance the character might flip out and go on a feeding frenzy. And afterwards the character has to deal with possibly having killed friends while they were nuts. (On top of possible Masquerade violations.) I believe there was also the chance for a downward spiral.

Quote from: Omega;950203Right and that tied into the chance the character might flip out and go on a feeding frenzy. And afterwards the character has to deal with possibly having killed friends while they were nuts. (On top of possible Masquerade violations.) I believe there was also the chance for a downward spiral.

Humanity could definitely degenerate and the higher it was the easier it was go lose. It was V:TM "Angst-o-meter" like pops in most WW games with the same limitations. It was incumbent on gms and players to monitor, understand its intent and apply it correctly or it could be hassle or a buzzkill. P

Quote from: Nexus;950213Humanity could definitely degenerate and the higher it was the easier it was go lose. It was V:TM "Angst-o-meter" like pops in most WW games with the same limitations. It was incumbent on gms and players to monitor, understand its intent and apply it correctly or it could be hassle or a buzzkill. P

I think angst is actually the biggest issue I had with the way the World of Darkness was presented. Angst is great for film and literature, but ultimately its an introspection. A good RPG, especially one aspiring to Gothic sensibilities, should instead be about Melodrama. About emoting. Externalizing the internal struggle. To quote a rule of Improvisational theatre:

"Angst happens offstage; Pathos happens on stage."

I've seen a lot of things on stage that are pathetic, that's true.

Quote from: Nexus;950213Humanity could definitely degenerate and the higher it was the easier it was go lose. It was V:TM "Angst-o-meter" like pops in most WW games with the same limitations. It was incumbent on gms and players to monitor, understand its intent and apply it correctly or it could be hassle or a buzzkill. P

Aberrant (and I think Trinity) had it too. The MR node and how much taint you were accumulating.

Eh, WW WoD was about being in the head space of the monster understanding why it wasn't the greatest bargain. The pathos was the melodramatic diversions and delusions that kept getting in the way of dealing with that crisis of spirit. Buuuut, unlike CoC where San hits were well structured and aplenty (easier to do with a larger meter), WW was very hands off on how to use that other really-final life meter. So, without attachment to setting grounding why "this bargain sucks!," you're going to get more caught up in the melodrama as distraction and feel only an aching twinge of angst. Which in turn such angst twinge will soon annoy while you're busy chasing melodramatic wild geese and will want a simple angst/pain-killer.

Like Ravenloft, WW WoD line seemed obvious to me that the meat of the game was learning that the cursed power was bad, and coming to that conclusion through observing loss in action. It's just they approach the point of view from different directions. Thus the other non-health life meters were the meat of the game. Granted weeping 'woe is me!' is not reasonably expected, but the angst (or if the GM is on it, the melodramatic consequences of moral failings) are nice as a useful aftertaste reminder.

Quote from: san dee jota;950068To some extent though, this change in theme was kind of to be expected.  A vampire would either come to terms with things quickly and accept their existence, or else burn out.  The whole "struggle to retain one's humanity" angle would become old hat after a while, both in and out of character.  And you stop playing through the Hunt every time, because it gets boring and repetitive; it's not just a sense of ennui for the character, but the player too, and that's not fun.   So the game starts throwing around an ever expanding (and ever more bizarre) Jyhad, to give PCs and Players both an excuse to interject some fresh new thing to deal with (usually violently, because violence is easier to play with than profound explorations of reconciling existentialist nihilism with the urge to connect to others).

Yes. That's what I was complaining about with Wraith -- how do you spend your time getting deeply invested in individual characters, their personal motivations, and their struggles while you have expansive cultural story playing over yonder in plot playground X, guys trying to kill you (and dying being relatively easy, making you start over with your characters frequent) over in plot playground Y, political intrigue over in plot playground Z. There's too much else going on in the WoD world to sit and mull over your decisions and motivations repetitively. Probably good for the game as a whole, but fuel for the argument that WoD was never all that good at achieving its own intended purpose.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;950086There were no consequences to it. No real enforceable down side. And those players knew it and took full advantage of that fact.

The LARP scene is where I saw the worst absence of consequences. Where the ST just doesn't pay attention to anyone other than a small group of friends and favorites. And just ignored everybody else that was there.

Those seem to me like two perfectly valid, but not related, complaints. Can you expand on the thought?

Quote from: Opaopajr;950248Eh, WW WoD was about being in the head space of the monster understanding why it wasn't the greatest bargain. The pathos was the melodramatic diversions and delusions that kept getting in the way of dealing with that crisis of spirit. Buuuut, unlike CoC where San hits were well structured and aplenty (easier to do with a larger meter), WW was very hands off on how to use that other really-final life meter. So, without attachment to setting grounding why "this bargain sucks!," you're going to get more caught up in the melodrama as distraction and feel only an aching twinge of angst. Which in turn such angst twinge will soon annoy while you're busy chasing melodramatic wild geese and will want a simple angst/pain-killer.

Actually, Vampire: the Masquerade could do that sort of thing quite well.  As a one-on-one game for one player and a GM (-maybe- two players).  Humanity was designed to start in the "hey, I'm a human... more or less" range and then drop to a playable bottom of "nope, I'm a vampire... but that doesn't mean I -have- to be evil".  PC were kind of expected to hover around the 5-7 Humanity range, with numbers outside that signaling an entire tone or focus for the game (the fall to being a -functional- monster/the Quest for Golconda).

The problem for Vampire though, was that typically you had more than one or two players, and it's kind of tough to tell what amounts to only slight variations on the same story for 3+ PCs*.  And, to be honest, from my experience most of us playing in the 90's were 20 somethings who were less interested in exploring what it means to be a human than we were in exploring what it meant to be a monster with this huge cool mythology (and super powers!!!!).  The zeitgeist wasn't tapping into contemplative angst as you pondered the ancient question of "what is the measure of a man", but tapping into a desire to run around and beat up puny mortals as if you were playing the table top RPG version of Grand Theft Auto 5** with cheats and super monsters enabled.  

EDIT: actually, a second problem for Vampire is that even with a -small- group of players, the game would grow dull fairly quickly.  Without a win condition, it would be a very lonely and empty experience, as the Jyhad and vampirism isolated the PC(s) from Kindred and Kine alike.  Which could be fun, but I don't think it'd work well for very long.  Promethean fixed this by specifically having a win condition, that PCs were assumably working towards at all times.

(*I do wonder how much of this sense of 'sameness' drove the desire among players to pick the most random, and usually inappropriate, character types they could find, as if it were a shorthand to making an actually interesting character.  "You're playing Vampire?  Cool!  Here's my werelynx character!  I -have- to play a Vampire?  Okay, how about one of these old 1ed Gaki?  They sound cool.")
(**okay, so GTA5 didn't exist in the 90's, but hopefully you pedantic types get my point)

Quote from: Willie the Duck;950257Those seem to me like two perfectly valid, but not related, complaints. Can you expand on the thought?

Unfortunately, I had to deal with a group who were playing Sabbat characters. Sabbat characters have no Humanity track. So they can be as inhuman and vile as they want without consequence.

Bad gamers are bad gamers. But my experience in the LARP scene was almost universally bad. I have no good memories at all of it.

Quote from: Omega;950247and how much taint you were accumulating.

I do enjoy accumulating taint!

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;950364Unfortunately, I had to deal with a group who were playing Sabbat characters. Sabbat characters have no Humanity track. So they can be as inhuman and vile as they want without consequence.

Well, there -are- supposed to be limits on what characters following a Path can and can'd do; Degeneration is still an issue for them, it's just "terrorize the puny human" isn't a problem while (for a vamp on the Path of Caine) "refusing to eat a 'humane' vamp" is pretty certain to torment you.  

But yeah, ultimately letting PCs be Sabbat is a big sign from the GM saying "Evil psycho PCs encouraged".  Intentionally or not.

If you wanted to avoid darker characters and action when why would you allow or play in a game featuring Sabbat PCs? The Sabbat are basically vampires that have either embraced their monstrosity or turned their backs on human morality (which can be a distinction without a difference). It doesn't mean they're going to be Chaotic Psycho alignment but its pretty certain to get at least a very dark shade.

That's it, I'm rewriting WoD.

Quote from: Snowman0147;950066The mechanic I like is the more powerful you are the easier rolls become.  Example mortals in scion need to roll 8, or higher to get a success on a die.  Heroes reduce that to 7, demigods to 6, and gods to 5.  That ten dice pool starts to grant more successes the more power you have.

Ug. Sounds ghastly.

Quote from: Snowman0147;950066Now the mechanic I hate.  Everyone shares a pool of power to use abilities.  Once you spend energy the GM converts that energy to evil energy that npcs have access too.  So the more energy you use the more empowered the npcs become.  This will just lead to battles of attrition which are not fun.

Also ghastly.

The problem with having two opposing metacurrencies which cancel each other out is that you end up with, well, two opposing metacurrencies which cancel each other out.

Quote from: san dee jota;950070Doesn't Mutant Chronicles do something similar?  Seems like I'm hearing more and more systems using similar mechanics to this.

Quote from: Nexus;950071It sounds like the Doom(Momentum?)/Dark Synergy mechanics from another system....

Yeah, #Metacurrencies do seem to be the new #Black, and a lot of #CargoCult thinking seems to be behind their inclusion. But that's not to say they're a bad concept, just badly executed.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;950136The implication being that different forms of art are analogous to a game. I don't think that's the case.

Until I hear a coherent reason as to why that's so, let alone supporting evidence, I will continue to call bullshit on this thinking.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;950136I don't know what that means, what has Harlan Ellison got to say on the matter?

A lot. And very loudly. (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/tabletop/columns/thegauntlett/12709-Wraith-The-Oblivion-Returns-With-Wraith-20th-Anniversary-Kicksta.4)

Quote from: Tristram Evans;950136And why would his opinion be worthwhile?

You mean other than technically being a #Jew (which seems important for some reason)?

Because he's deeply insightful, raw, compassionate, confrontational, and one of the greatest writers of our time still living. And I agree with him that this story needs to be told whenever, wherever, and by any means possible.

Quote from: Marleycat;950161Are you being serious?

Only as much as discussing #ElfGames demands.

Quote from: Marleycat;950161Personally I don't think so and think you're trolling.

Why do people keep saying that?

#IndistinguishableFromTrolling

Quote from: Marleycat;950161Harlan Ellison is/was a bitter old man and huge asshat that is/was just a guy who wrote science fiction/cyberpunk books.

Amazing how a 'non-Jew' who finds including #TheShoah in a game offensive can dismiss an 'actual Jew' who's done far more to fight and raise awareness of such horrors. The #Hypocrisy is staggering.

Quote from: Marleycat;950161He isn't an authority on anything that actually affects real people.

As opposed to the people who write and play #ElfGames?

Quote from: Marleycat;950161For example you don't have to be Jewish to know Hitler did bad things against many minorities but especially against people that happened to believe in Judaism. Put in a modern context you don't have to be Syrian to understand something bad is going on in Syria and that there are some seriously evil and bad apples in charge in that area of the world.

You're absolutely correct! The inhumanity of these horrors is obvious to anyone with a soul.

And yet you still felt the need to preface your initial statement with "I'm not Jewish but..."

Fuck me, which idiot came up with the idea of hashtags.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;950930Ug. Sounds ghastly.

Go on.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;950930Until I hear a coherent reason as to why that's so, let alone supporting evidence, I will continue to call bullshit on this thinking.

Why games aren't art? Well taking the most basic definition of art: "Art is a diverse range of human activities in creating visual, auditory or performing artifacts (artworks), expressing the author's imaginative or technical skill, intended to be appreciated for their beauty or emotional power," whereas a game is a structured form of play, not intended to create or produce anything, but to be enjoyed by the participants for the act in and of itself. Playing a game produces nothing of aesthetic value, there is no audience that it communicates any expression of emotion.

What has always confused me is the recent movement to apply the term art to playing RPGs, as if its necessary to legitimize the activity in some way beyond its entertainment value. It's not enough to sit around and have some fun with friends, there must be some "social significance" to the activity. Almost as if it would be embarrassing to do something simply for the enjoyment of that thing.

Harlan Ellison is like the Ed Wood of science fiction. Most the stuff he wrote was crap, but he's famous for being famous, basically.

Anyway, I hope this documentary has a large section about Denny's. For a long time you couldn't go to one at night without seeing a bunch of Vampire players there. And it didn't matter where you'd go. I'd take a break from driving someplace and stop in some tiny town in the South, and you'd have a bunch of them, all drinking coffee at 3 am

Quote from: Tristram Evans;950960Why games aren't art? Well taking the most basic definition of art: "Art is a diverse range of human activities in creating visual, auditory or performing artifacts (artworks), expressing the author's imaginative or technical skill, intended to be appreciated for their beauty or emotional power," whereas a game is a structured form of play, not intended to create or produce anything, but to be enjoyed by the participants for the act in and of itself. Playing a game produces nothing of aesthetic value, there is no audience that it communicates any expression of emotion.



Not sure what you thought you were linking to there, but that's an article about Wraith not something to do with Harlan Ellison.

In the article is the guy talking about how he had asked Harlan Ellison for opinions on The Shoah, and Ellison responded with support.

Quote from: CRKrueger;950964In the article is the guy talking about how he had asked Harlan Ellison for opinions on The Shoah, and Ellison responded with support.

ah, OK, guess I didnt read far enough

Quote from: JeremyR;950962Harlan Ellison is like the Ed Wood of science fiction. Most the stuff he wrote was crap, but he's famous for being famous, basically.

Anyway, I hope this documentary has a large section about Denny's. For a long time you couldn't go to one at night without seeing a bunch of Vampire players there. And it didn't matter where you'd go. I'd take a break from driving someplace and stop in some tiny town in the South, and you'd have a bunch of them, all drinking coffee at 3 am

lol, I almost hate to admit this, but that was totally my group back in the mid to late '90s. I mean, we didn't actually do any gaming in there, but we'd all go out for coffee and eats after our session. And oh man, did we ever think we were cool! >eye roll, eye roll<

Quote from: JeremyR;950962Harlan Ellison is like the Ed Wood of science fiction. Most the stuff he wrote was crap, but he's famous for being famous, basically.

Anyway, I hope this documentary has a large section about Denny's. For a long time you couldn't go to one at night without seeing a bunch of Vampire players there. And it didn't matter where you'd go. I'd take a break from driving someplace and stop in some tiny town in the South, and you'd have a bunch of them, all drinking coffee at 3 am

9 Hugos, 4 Nebulas, 5 Bram Stokers, 2 Edgars, multiple WGA's, more lifetime achievement awards than you can count, induction into the Science Fiction Hall of Fame, and that's before you go into screenplays.

Famous for being Famous is someone like Paris Hilton (to be fair, she did demonstrate her fellatio skill).
Comparing Harlan Ellison to Ed Wood is just moronic.

I'm not going to disparage Ellison's writing,  butI don't necessarily think that his opinion on social issues is of any more relevance or value than anyone other layman though.

Quote from: CRKrueger;9509689 Hugos, 4 Nebulas, 5 Bram Stokers, 2 Edgars, multiple WGA's, more lifetime achievement awards than you can count, induction into the Science Fiction Hall of Fame, and that's before you go into screenplays.

Famous for being Famous is someone like Paris Hilton (to be fair, she did demonstrate her fellatio skill).
Comparing Harlan Ellison to Ed Wood is just moronic.

"Yeah, and the Beatles sucked, too! Elvis Presley? Total crap. Daniel Johnston is a TRUE genius!"

(Always interesting when folks rip obvious successes--pretty sure I've done it once or twice, as well):-)

Quote from: CRKrueger;9509689 Hugos, 4 Nebulas, 5 Bram Stokers, 2 Edgars, multiple WGA's, more lifetime achievement awards than you can count, induction into the Science Fiction Hall of Fame, and that's before you go into screenplays.

Famous for being Famous is someone like Paris Hilton (to be fair, she did demonstrate her fellatio skill).
Comparing Harlan Ellison to Ed Wood is just moronic.

There is no work in any of Harlan Ellisons sci-fi novels that I found innovative, original, memorable...or even attractive. I have not looked at any fantasy works he may have written because of being bored senseless from his awful sci-fi stories. I tried reading his novels. There were no hooks for his leading characters, no conflict in any story that held or grabbed me long enough for me to want to finish, well, any of his books. The subjects he wrote about held zero interest to me, as I felt the stories were more culturally relevant and oriented to the place and time of his readers, but not interesting from a scientific point of view, nor from a standpoint of examining the morals that may be necessary to have or value in the far future.  

He probably was one of the first of a generation that went after the SF awards purely for the prestige of the award, at least it seemed that way to me. He was also a real dick towards anyone outside of the sci-fi field, and made quite a few enemies on that count. Often, if a person is being mean and insensitive, that is a sign that the person himself is hiding some rather deep insecurities about said subject. That is what I remember him for most, which is not something you should want to be remembered for if you are a sci-fi or fantasy writer.

Also, have never personally been interested in ripping a person because they were successful. If i see successful people being a douchebag towards anyone else, just because they are successful, that is a good reason for me to see to it they are demoted, or maybe get a ripping. I don't want such people representing me, or my my values, or serving as a leader or inspiration for me, or for my peers.

Quote from: GameDaddy;950976There is no work in any of Harlan Ellisons sci-fi novels that I found innovative, original, memorable...or even attractive. I have not looked at any fantasy works he may have written because of being bored senseless from his awful sci-fi stories. I tried reading his novels. There were no hooks for his leading characters, no conflict in any story that held or grabbed me long enough for me to want to finish, well, any of his books. The subjects he wrote about held zero interest to me, as I felt the stories were more culturally relevant and oriented to the place and time of his readers, but not interesting from a scientific point of view, nor from a standpoint of examining the morals that may be necessary to have or value in the far future.  

He probably was one of the first of a generation that went after the SF awards purely for the prestige of the award, at least it seemed that way to me. He was also a real dick towards anyone outside of the sci-fi field, and made quite a few enemies on that count. Often, if a person is being mean and insensitive, that is a sign that the person himself is hiding some rather deep insecurities about said subject. That is what I remember him for most, which is not something you should want to be remembered for if you are a sci-fi or fantasy writer.

Also, have never personally been interested in ripping a person because they were successful. If i see successful people being a douchebag towards anyone else, just because they are successful, that is a good reason for me to see to it they are demoted, or maybe get a ripping. I don't want such people representing me, or my my values, or serving as a leader or inspiration for me, or for my peers.

Yeah...that's great.  But your opinion of his writing wasn't the charge.  The charge was...

Harlan Ellison is famous for being famous, a statement ludicrous on it's face.

When someone is the only person ever to have won the Nebula Award for short stories three times, in addition to everything else, you may not think much of him (even though he's lauded by Stephen King, Neil Gaiman, Octavia Butler, etc.), but that's hell and gone from placing him in the category of Ed Wood or some unearned media celebrity.

You might not think Denzel Washington earned both his Oscars, or that Katherine Hepburn didn't deserve all 4 of hers, but to then conclude that makes them famous for being famous is just laughable.

Quote from: GameDaddy;950976There is no work in any of Harlan Ellisons sci-fi novels that I found innovative, original, memorable...or even attractive.

Out of curiosity, which of Harlan Ellison's sci-fi novels have you read?

Ellison was a bully when he was working with White Wolf too. They seem to fit eachother well... :rolleyes:

As for his writing. Its very hit and miss and some of his innovations arent quite as innovative as some like to think. Hes also more than willing to knock someone elses works just to make his look bigger. But then thats nothing new in the writing biz. Ellison is just rather good at spin doctoring things to his advantage.

He is though really good at the nonsense story, stories that lack much plot (if any at all), and the "random stuff happens" story. But are still entertaining.

Quote from: Omega;951006Ellison was a bully when he was working with White Wolf too. They seem to fit eachother well... :rolleyes:

As for his writing. Its very hit and miss and some of his innovations arent quite as innovative as some like to think. Hes also more than willing to knock someone elses works just to make his look bigger. But then thats nothing new in the writing biz. Ellison is just rather good at spin doctoring things to his advantage.

He is though really good at the nonsense story, stories that lack much plot (if any at all), and the "random stuff happens" story. But are still entertaining.

...and in any case, not "Famous for Being Famous".

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;950931Fuck me, which idiot came up with the idea of hashtags.

1) No, thanks, I wouldn't...
2) But I agree wholeheartedly on hashtags!

Quote from: Tristram Evans;950960Why games aren't art? Well taking the most basic definition of art: "Art is a diverse range of human activities in creating visual, auditory or performing artifacts (artworks), expressing the author's imaginative or technical skill, intended to be appreciated for their beauty or emotional power," whereas a game is a structured form of play, not intended to create or produce anything, but to be enjoyed by the participants for the act in and of itself. Playing a game produces nothing of aesthetic value, there is no audience that it communicates any expression of emotion.

What has always confused me is the recent movement to apply the term art to playing RPGs, as if its necessary to legitimize the activity in some way beyond its entertainment value. It's not enough to sit around and have some fun with friends, there must be some "social significance" to the activity. Almost as if it would be embarrassing to do something simply for the enjoyment of that thing.

Yeah, I almost get the feeling they would be ashamed to be caught merely playing. Wonder why?

Also, #HomoLudens:D!

Quote from: CRKrueger;951009...and in any case, not "Famous for Being Famous".

Definitely not, even if I suspect he's using random tables in his writing;).

Quote from: Tristram Evans;950960Why games aren't art? Well taking the most basic definition of art: "Art is a diverse range of human activities in creating visual, auditory or performing artifacts (artworks), expressing the author's imaginative or technical skill, intended to be appreciated for their beauty or emotional power," whereas a game is a structured form of play, not intended to create or produce anything, but to be enjoyed by the participants for the act in and of itself. Playing a game produces nothing of aesthetic value, there is no audience that it communicates any expression of emotion.

Enh.  Using that argument, sports are art.  A coach crafts a plan using their skill, for how players are expected to perform, in order to elicit excitement from an audience who doesn't participate.

"But what does that have to do with TTRPGs?"

The hobby has reached the point where we have things like Playing D&D With Porn Stars, Harmon Quest, Wil Wheaton's TTRPG youtube projects, and so forth, where people aren't just using the idea of a TTRPG as a prop for a joke (e.g. The Big Bang Theory, Dorkness Rising), but are actually recording and sharing the plays themselves.  And people are watching them!  Heck, the hobby has finally reached the point where if you're lucky enough, you can actually get paid to GM -or- play!  (I wouldn't go get a loan for that houseboat on your gaming residuals just yet though)  

I mean, I get it.  Art -is- subjective.  But I'm not sure you can define "art" in such a way that excludes TTRPGs and doesn't exclude something most people would consider to be a classical form of art.  All these games are is improv theater with more constraints and nobody in the audience (usually).  

Quote from: Tristram Evans;950960What has always confused me is the recent movement to apply the term art to playing RPGs, as if its necessary to legitimize the activity in some way beyond its entertainment value. It's not enough to sit around and have some fun with friends, there must be some "social significance" to the activity. Almost as if it would be embarrassing to do something simply for the enjoyment of that thing.

No argument there.  "But is it art" was pretentious bullshit White Wolf bandied out years ago, when they should've asked "but is it fun?"

* frantically rubbing two sticks together * Dammit!!!

Quote from: san dee jota;951043Enh.  Using that argument, sports are art.  A coach crafts a plan using their skill, for how players are expected to perform, in order to elicit excitement from an audience who doesn't participate.

Well, we're getting into a really complex area here; is dancing a sport for instance? To really get into a comprehensive definition of art and how its distinguished from other activities i'd probably have to write up a full essay, and I do enough of that at the moment for school. Suffice to say, films can be art, but that doesn't make porn art just because its actors being filmed. I would say at its simplest, the distinction between activities such as organized sports and art is the ultimate goal. Sports entertain, and may cause emotions through that entertainment, but they are not expressions of creativity or specifically an attempt to invoke emotion, emotion is at best a by-product of fans invested in the true outcome/goal, which is physical competition.

QuoteThe hobby has reached the point where we have things like Playing D&D With Porn Stars, Harmon Quest, Wil Wheaton's TTRPG youtube projects, and so forth, where people aren't just using the idea of a TTRPG as a prop for a joke (e.g. The Big Bang Theory, Dorkness Rising), but are actually recording and sharing the plays themselves.  And people are watching them!  Heck, the hobby has finally reached the point where if you're lucky enough, you can actually get paid to GM -or- play!  (I wouldn't go get a loan for that houseboat on your gaming residuals just yet though)  

I thought Playing D&d with Pornstars was just the name of Zak's blog? Regardless, I get your point, yet at the same I'd go back to the analogy between film and porn. Something like Harmonquest (which I enjoyed) is more along the lines of the Knights of the Dinner Table comicbook strip, The Fear of Girls shorts, or the D&D episodes of Community. The RPG plays a role, but its actuallyabout something else. Sort of like videotaping a trip to an art museum is not the same as a painting by Rubens.

Again, though, very complex subject that I just don't have the time to adequately address on the forum.

QuoteI mean, I get it.  Art -is- subjective.  But I'm not sure you can define "art" in such a way that excludes TTRPGs and doesn't exclude something most people would consider to be a classical form of art.  

I'm not sure thats entirely necessary though, insofar as we already accept RPGs are "games", and games are a concept distinct from art. You "create art", you "play a game". I don't think these adjectives are interchangeable, without changing the meaning (so, you can create a game, and an RPG book itself can be a work of art, but the act of playing a game cannot sensibly be called "creating a game". The game exists, and then it is played.

Quote from: GameDaddy;950976There is no work in any of Harlan Ellisons sci-fi novels that I found innovative, original, memorable...or even attractive.

Me thinks you're bullshitting as Ellison has barely ever written a novel. He has worked almost exclusively in the short story format and teleplays. His few novels are nonfantastic or fixups of short stories written with collaborators and never thought to be even near his best or important work.

He is an uneven and often undisciplined writer but can be powerful and effective when the spirit moved him. He is best known for violent and surreal stories, character and plot are not really what they're usually concerned with, but then neither are the short stories of Kafka for that matter. I think his best stories include 'At the Mouse Circus,' 'I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream,' 'Repent Harlequin! Said the Ticktockman' and his classic and blackly funny novella 'A Boy and His Dog.'

Quote from: edromia;950997Out of curiosity, which of Harlan Ellison's sci-fi novels have you read?

A Boy and His Dog
I have no Mouth and I must Scream
Approaching Oblivion

I seem to remember another book that featured motorcycle artwork on the cover, and a woman, a brunette as well, but can't place that story at this time.

There is an RPG game that has similar qualities to these stories... Grey Ranks.

What they both have in common, and what put me off from reading any other works by Harlan Ellison, is the misery tourism. To sum it up, none of these stories finish on a particular positive note, there quite a bit of morally questionable material in the stories, for example, many focus on moral conflicts (most are never resolved btw), instead of focusing on science and future tech that makes the world better, or at least tries to make the world better. Its' as if he's deliberately crafting a bleak future with no hope for victory, no place for optimism, a very slim chance of survival. All-in-all pretty depressing. I couldn't actually believe he was nominated for one Hugo let alone won four, along with some Nebula Awards as well.

Then there is his inherent hostility. He has sued or bullied hundreds upon hundreds of people.

In a lawsuit against ABC and Paramount Pictures, Ellison and Ben Bova claimed that a TV series, Future Cop was based on their short story, "Brillo", winning a $337,000 judgement.

Ellison alleged that James Cameron's film The Terminator drew from material from an episode of the original Outer Limits which Ellison had scripted, "Soldier" (1964). Hemdale, the production company and the distributor Orion Pictures, settled out of court for an undisclosed sum, and added a credit to the film which acknowledged Ellison's work. Cameron objected to this acknowledgement, and has since labeled Ellison's claim a "nuisance suit". Ellison has publicly referred to The Terminator as "a good film." Some accounts of the settlement state that another Outer Limits episode written by Ellison, "Demon with a Glass Hand" (also 1964), was also claimed to have been plagiarized by the film, but Ellison has explicitly stated that The Terminator "was a ripoff" of "Soldier" rather than "Demon with a Glass Hand".

On April 24, 2000, Ellison sued Stephen Robertson for posting four stories to the newsgroup "alt.binaries.e-book" without authorization. The other defendants were AOL and RemarQ, internet service providers who owned servers hosting the newsgroup. Ellison alleged they had failed to halt copyright infringement in accordance with the "Notice and Takedown Procedure" outlined in the 1998 Digital Millennium Copyright Act. Robertson and RemarQ first settled with Ellison, and then AOL likewise settled with Ellison in June 2004, under conditions that were not made public. Since those settlements Ellison has initiated legal action or takedown notices against more than 240 people who have allegedly distributed his writings on the Internet, saying, "If you put your hand in my pocket, you'll drag back six inches of bloody stump"

Edromia, I'm not interested in putting my hand in his pocket. I don't need to, or want to read any story he wrote. He can go on hating on people as much as he wants, but I'm not going to finance that, by underwriting his "supposed" sci-fi stories in any way shape, or form.

Someone else mentioned Franz Kafka here in relation to Harlan Ellison. Yes, they both wrote dark short stories. Kafka's work, which fuses elements of realism and the fantastic, typically features isolated protagonists faced by bizarre or surrealistic predicaments and incomprehensible social-bureaucratic powers, and has been interpreted as exploring themes of alienation, existential anxiety, guilt, and absurdity. The term Kafkaesque has been coined to describe real situations that are similar to his writings.

Kafka's writings seems to me a touch schizophrenic, with some serious disconnects with reality, and a severe lack of comprehension regarding cause and effect especially in regards to bureaucratic processes and governments. In most his books that I reviewed Kafka's protagonists insist on trying to deal, negotiate, and or bargain with bureaucratic organizations, and when they are unsuccessful, instead of seeking a better alternative, or finding an alternate solution, return right back to dealing, negotiating, or attempting to bargain with unqualified representatives as well as a  faceless bureaucracy. That, is an an example of insanity. Once you have read one Kafka book, you have read them all, because these themes I describe here are common throughout Kafka's writings. Other than being depressing, and from time-to-time surreal, they have very little in common with anything written by Harlan Ellison.

I can't find any decent science-fiction really, in the writings of either author, and have not, for some time being at least a couple decades, looked at any new books or publications, by, or about these two authors.

Quote from: GameDaddy;951126What they both have in common, and what put me off from reading any other works by Harlan Ellison, is the misery tourism. To sum it up, none of these stories finish on a particular positive note, there quite a bit of morally questionable material in the stories, for example, many focus on moral conflicts (most are never resolved btw), instead of focusing on science and future tech that makes the world better, or at least tries to make the world better. Its' as if he's deliberately crafting a bleak future with no hope for victory, no place for optimism, a very slim chance of survival. All-in-all pretty depressing. I couldn't actually believe he was nominated for one Hugo let alone won four, along with some Nebula Awards as well.

Depressing fiction is the kind that tends to win awards. If it makes you feel good, the unspoken assumption seems to go, it can't possibly be True Art. :cool:

Snarkiness aside, though, I see why you don't like him, but saying that his work is objectively bad because it's depressing seems like it's missing the point by a considerable margin. Not everyone reads to be cheered up, you know?

Quote from: Baeraad;951128Snarkiness aside, though, I see why you don't like him, but saying that his work is objectively bad because it's depressing seems like it's missing the point by a considerable margin. Not everyone reads to be cheered up, you know?

Ahh, well. No comment on the first part. I'm ok with depressing science fiction though, if it includes fiction based on science that seems legit. Fred Saberhagen's Beserker series is a real good example of this, Giant autonotomic spacecraft with a built-in Sentient A.I. that has been programmed to extinguish all life. Most of what makes up those stories are pretty brutal, but there is the infrequent victories by the humans that show there is hope, and that it is worthwhile to continue the struggle for life.

Bladerunner. A masterpiece. About as depressing as you can get, however the ending was very very interesting. "We didn't know how much time we have together, but then, who does?" rachel doesn't have an incep date. she's not going to die, and probably Deckard won't die either, he is after all, a replicant. Looking very forward to the sequel btw... the trailer is up for this;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_JAMRKzEHs


2001: A Space Oddysey. The Ships' AI, HAL, is deliberately programmed to lie, as well as to kill everybody. That is pretty dark. One guy made it though, and HAL was disabled in the end. I liked those two well enough in spite of their depression, becuase the depression is just temporary.

Quote from: CRKrueger;951009...and in any case, not "Famous for Being Famous".

More like famous for being a jerk and a bully... ahem... But he did help push the envelope and wedge wider the door for more adult stories and subjects. Harlan is also good enough to note that he wasnt alone in this and tends to mention other writers who were also bucking the system and running into similar walls.

But if you look at his award history its alot of awards for the same 10 stories just about. And some of those were ones were he set off into weird directions and styles. Much like Bradbury and others have.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;951103* frantically rubbing two sticks together * Dammit!!!

This is a WOD thread so you should be rubbing two steaks together. :o

I respect Harlan's success, but I disagree with White Wolf's gamification of the Holocaust.

I don't know where the line exists for misery tourism, but FOR ME (and maybe only for me) I can't see running games involving historical mass murders. Maybe its the issue of people still being alive from the era. Maybe its the political sensitivity. I don't know.

I'm even unsure where the line exists for movies or other entertainment, as I know I have certainly enjoyed media that I could qualify as misery tourism.

For what it's worth, Demon with a Glass Hand was one of the best Outer Limits produced.

Ellison's self description ("Gadfly is what they call you when you are no longer dangerous; I much prefer troublemaker, malcontent, desperado") misses the point that at some level of misanthropy, you come full circle and just become that Simpsons meme of 'old man yells at cloud.' If he had some larger point to his public persona, it has been lost in the noise (and semi-frivolous lawsuits).

As to his works, I have no problem with them. They are good, solid (though inconsistent), if hardly the best in any category or timeframe. I'm a little surprised at the number of awards he's gotten, as award-giving-types usually go to the number one performer of a year, not for a lifetime of consistently being 5th or 6th.

Regardless, his work has little to do with his opinions on White Wolf.

Quote from: GameDaddy;951126I can't find any decent science-fiction really, in the writings of either author, and have not, for some time being at least a couple decades, looked at any new books or publications, by, or about these two authors.

A very odd statement. Kafka is not a sf author and he died shortly before the Shoah wiped out his family and most of European Jewry. Sorry you found his short stories depressing and 'disconnected from reality.'  What a bummer, man. :confused:

If anything history shows Kafka was very much connected to reality.

Yeah, that entire diatribe about Kafka was just bizarre. I think Gamedaddy was talking out of his butt on this one.

Soo... will the "documentary" cover White Wolf's various "borrowings" from other designers books? Will it cover their various underhanded badmouthing and/or pissing on the fans of other companies while posing as employees of said companies? Will it cover how they treat some of their employees like slaves? Will it cover how they were so lazy as to not even bother writing all the rules because "oh the players will do that for us..."

Let me guess how this would go.

"No no! It is a great privilege for us to even deign to look upon your lowly writing! We didnt credit you so as to spare you the shame."
"No no! We were posing as WOTC staff so we could set the facts strait!"
"No no! We just own everything they ever design or draw. Totally not slaves!"
"No no! We are blessing you with the task of paying us so you can do our job for us."

Quote from: Omega;951559Soo... will the "documentary" cover White Wolf's various "borrowings" from other designers books? Will it cover their various underhanded badmouthing and/or pissing on the fans of other companies while posing as employees of said companies? Will it cover how they treat some of their employees like slaves? Will it cover how they were so lazy as to not even bother writing all the rules because "oh the players will do that for us..."

Why don't you cover that stuff for us, since I'm interested, but was obviously not very tuned into to the behind the scene machinations during the 90s?

Quote from: Tristram Evans;951560Why don't you cover that stuff for us, since I'm interested, but was obviously not very tuned into to the behind the scene machinations during the 90s?

Nothing I havent mentioned before.

Me and at least one other designer noted that WW was quietly plucking stuff from obscure sources to pad out their books. Which probably means theres more Im just unaware of. I only found out by pure chance. Only part of a few paragraphs. But really? Not though as disconcerting as finding a new RCC in Rifts based off a profession in my book. Even the art piece was following the illo in mine vaugly. Least TSR asked if it was ok to use a concept someone liked.

So far once as admin on a newsgroup way back and once from just casual browsing have spotted WW staff making some statements as if they were WOTC staff.

WW has/had a "You make it. We own it" clause in their contracts. Art, games, whatever. Apparently it came back to bite Hagen in the ass later.

d20GW was my encounter with that. This was from WW staff when asked about certain omissions. "Oh we didnt bother writing that. The players will do it for us."

My concern is they won't find the money they seek and will start filing lawsuits to increase the brand's value.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;950931Fuck me, which idiot came up with the idea of hashtags.

#Twitter

So technically it was multiple idiots.

Quote from: Nexus;950944Go on.

Like much in the [STRIKE]Storyteller[/STRIKE] [STRIKE]Storytelling[/STRIKE] Storypath system it's a band aid mechanic.

I'll explain later, as I have to pack for a Goth Convention (http://darksideofthecon.com).

Quote from: Tristram Evans;950960Why games aren't art?

No. What makes games meaningfully different when it comes to addressing sensitive material than every other medium?

Quote from: JeremyR;950962I hope this documentary has a large section about Denny's.

Considering how much took place there I'll be disappointed if they aren't a sponsor.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;950969I'm not going to disparage Ellison's writing,  butI don't necessarily think that his opinion on social issues is of any more relevance or value than anyone other layman though.

#ORLY?

Quote from: Harlan EllisonThere's an enormous amount of things out there to know: Up until maybe 20 years ago, it was possible to have read pretty widely and know pretty much everything that was going on. What you didn't know when you'd see a reference to it, you could pretty much catch the resonance and hook it in to something so you would understand it. But now... what with the Internet, the greatest disseminator of bad data and bad information the universe has ever known... it's become impossible to trust any news from any source at all, because it's all filtered through this crazy yenta gossip line. It's impossible to know anything. So you're not a stupid person or an ignorant person—you just aren't aware of these certain things.

Quote from: Harlan EllisonI don't understand what this lemming-like dementia is about constantly having new stuff. When was the last time you read the totality of Steinbeck or Faulkner or Katherine Anne Porter or Shirley Jackson? Everybody always wants something new, new, new—and that's what's killing life for writers. This dementia for "new" is ridiculous. It turns everybody into a back number.

Which he said...in 1998 (http://www.avclub.com/article/harlan-ellison-13555).

Quote from: GameDaddy;951126what put me off from reading any other works by Harlan Ellison, is the misery tourism.

Fair enough.

Quote from: GameDaddy;951126On April 24, 2000, Ellison sued Stephen Robertson for posting four stories to the newsgroup "alt.binaries.e-book" without authorization.

Yeah, wadda bastard. How dare he seek to protect his work and profit off the content he created.

Quote from: Spinachcat;951202I respect Harlan's success, but I disagree with White Wolf's gamification of the Holocaust.

Fair enough.

Quote from: Omega;951568So far once as admin on a newsgroup way back and once from just casual browsing have spotted WW staff making some statements as if they were WOTC staff.

Le gasp! Impersonating industry professionals?!?

Quote from: Omega;951568WW has/had a "You make it. We own it" clause in their contracts. Art, games, whatever.

To be fair, most content companies do.

Quote from: Omega;951568Apparently it came back to bite Hagen in the ass later.

From what I hear we should also be thankful there was somebody to stop him, unlike with #GeorgeLucas when he made the prequels.

Quote from: Omega;951568Nothing I havent mentioned before.

Me and at least one other designer noted that WW was quietly plucking stuff from obscure sources to pad out their books. Which probably means theres more Im just unaware of. I only found out by pure chance. Only part of a few paragraphs. But really? Not though as disconcerting as finding a new RCC in Rifts based off a profession in my book. Even the art piece was following the illo in mine vaugly. Least TSR asked if it was ok to use a concept someone liked.

So far once as admin on a newsgroup way back and once from just casual browsing have spotted WW staff making some statements as if they were WOTC staff.

WW has/had a "You make it. We own it" clause in their contracts. Art, games, whatever. Apparently it came back to bite Hagen in the ass later.

d20GW was my encounter with that. This was from WW staff when asked about certain omissions. "Oh we didnt bother writing that. The players will do it for us."

What RCC?