Quote from: Darrin Kelley;948293Yeah, That's not a conflict of interest at all! :rolleyes:

Whatever happened to an actually independant RPG media? It doesn't exist at the big purple.

What happened to it? You mean like the good old days when we had TSR's Dragon, Games Workshop's White Dwarf, Stever Jackson's Pyramid, GDWs Challenge, and White Wolf's, er, White Wolf to keep the industry honest? Those were the days!

I think there is just an overlap between people motivated to run a forum and people motivated enough to design games. Pundit and Brendan are both part of "The Industry" and are also mods here. I'm fine with that. This is a discussion forum, not a new source, so I don't demand any kind of journalistic credibility. It's just a place to shoot the shit.

As for the documentary ad. Yep. Stupid. I don't really care enough to be offended.

It's kind of a dangerous branch to go out on. I'd wager that fantasy is "cooler" at the moment than the dated '90s club scene they are selling. Nothing is less to cool to young people than what was cool when your parent were young. They would have been better using this relaunch to sell this as something new rather than height of hipness back in 1991.

So San Francisco ties with London as goth mecca (habitually tied with most goth nights, longest running nights, and for a scene just as long), but it also was/is/shall be its own (sub-)mecca for other things: hippies, metal, punk, electronica, LGBT, BDSM, technology, video games, mash ups, etc. And, as much of a gamer as I was and am, back then I was more of a club kid than today. And with that let me say there was a definite look of askance when people tried to pull WoD-isms in the club scene.

Seriously, people are there to see and be seen, chat, drink, dance, & fuck. And not necessarily in that order. Last thing they want to deal with is someone who is playing "let's pretend gang cliques!" when drugs, status, art, and fucking is on the line. These are adults playing adult games, the best we'd do is humor and then give the eye signal "now's not the time."

Did late 90s tech work then, saw all the rivet-head IT cubicles in Silicon Valley, saw the outré artistes Apple Mac cubicles in the art & design dept, etc. and could easily recognize the faces who showed up to which dance club scenes. Most of these working professionals there were into the music and style, not some laughable bougeosie "undead" gang for college-bound suburbanites. That WW-WoD fixated fans were in my early college days where youth who lived in Boringtown, USA brought with them their LARP coffeehouse rebel cred just like the ex-student class presidents and Jr ROTC kids did.

White Wolf is overstating things to get controvery attention, news at eleven.

Was it important in the RPG gamer scene? I presume so, but I was mostly in the tail end of that 90s scene. I got (back?) into RPGs from Uni cow town boredom, and even then partying came first. The rest of you have to fill those gaps for me.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;948306Why do gamers buy expensive RPG supplements instead of cheaper novels?

As a springboard into juicy daydreams about ideal campaigns they might play or run. There's just something enticing about all those carefully intertwined bits of fluff, rules, and art, like coveted toys still fresh in their perfectly designed boxes, unsullied by the disappointments of actual play.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;948322While I don't disagree - I've also read that the prevalence of video games - especially casual - meaning that virtually everyone knows the gist of games is one of the major factors which has led to the recent board game Renaissance.

It's interesting to guess if whether 5e and some other more recent TTRPGs can tap into the same thing.

I do think the recent explosion in board games has already benefited 5e. All the board game stores and cafes in town have at least one shelf with 5e D&D hardbacks and dice. There is only one store that carries any other RPGs besides 5e D&D.

Quote from: Baulderstone;948325What happened to it? You mean like the good old days when we had TSR's Dragon, Games Workshop's White Dwarf, Stever Jackson's Pyramid, GDWs Challenge, and White Wolf's, er, White Wolf to keep the industry honest? Those were the days!

Haha yeah I thought the same thing when I read that. Just like the video game press, there has never really been an independent professional press for RPGs. The closest we probably came to that was Imagine but Gygax shut them down partially because they wouldn't toe the line and even dared to criticize AD&D. Biting the hand that fed them, or at least the hand that held their leash.

Amateurwise though there seems to have been a vital stream of independent criticism in the APAs. Hence why Gygax wrote that amusingly self important screed in Dragon to those who would dare to talk back. Today we have blogs taking that role to a degree but I get the feeling that it is trendy to shit on anything 'mainstream' (i.e. 5e D&D, always D&D) while overpraising much mediocre indie or OSR material (in addition to a fair amount of deserved praise for good to great material).

Quote from: Baulderstone;948325What happened to it? You mean like the good old days when we had TSR's Dragon, Games Workshop's White Dwarf, Stever Jackson's Pyramid, GDWs Challenge, and White Wolf's, er, White Wolf to keep the industry honest? Those were the days!

I'm clearly of an older generation than you are. I remember Steve Jackson's Space Gamer and a wealth of different independant gaming publications that had no affiliation with game companies at all. Other than having them as advertisers.

Back in those days, even Dragon and White Dwarf covered articles on games that their respective companies didn't straight up own. The era of those independant `zines existed well into the 90's.

QuoteI think there is just an overlap between people motivated to run a forum and people motivated enough to design games. Pundit and Brendan are both part of "The Industry" and are also mods here. I'm fine with that. This is a discussion forum, not a new source, so I don't demand any kind of journalistic credibility. It's just a place to shoot the shit.

Pundit and Brendan (as far as I know) don't actively use their mod positions to silence conversation and negative opinions on any kind of RPG products they happen to have an affiliation with. They do not push the company line and company's interests while moderating this site. Nor do they pander to an atmosphere of "us vs. them". When it comes to the relationship between outspoken critics and game authors. Nor do they treat game authors as some type of protected class.

Over on the purple. It's habitual. They don't even try to hide it.

QuoteIt's kind of a dangerous branch to go out on. I'd wager that fantasy is "cooler" at the moment than the dated '90s club scene they are selling. Nothing is less to cool to young people than what was cool when your parent were young. They would have been better using this relaunch to sell this as something new rather than height of hipness back in 1991.

Back in the heyday of White Wolf. It was still fantastically stupid of them to down talk other people in the hobby just because they played different games.  And they faced quite a bit of backlash when they jumped on the D20 bandwagon. After they had spent the entire prior history of their existance badmouthing the audience composed of the very gamers they suddenly wanted to making money from.

It was stupid then. It is stupid now. Same arrogance, different decade.

Quote from: Voros;948333Haha yeah I thought the same thing when I read that. Just like the video game press, there has never really been an independent professional press for RPGs.

It is kinda too bad that it doesn't exist, especially with the plethora of indies out there.  It'd be nice to get a consistent source for reviews etc.  Sure - there are RPG reviews scattered about the interwebs, but even they aren't a fanboy and/or friend of the designer, there's no real baseline if you haven't read several of their reviews before, preferably at least a one or two which are games that you've played.

But really - TTRPGs are probably too niche to have a consistent/independent professional press.  The video game press has actually gotten a lot better the last few years - in part likely because video games have gone mainstream enough that they aren't as reliant upon video games to buy all their advertising.  Even a TTRPG equivalent of Wil Wheaton's Tabletop would be nice.  Sure he's a fanboy - but he generally only brings up the games he likes to begin with and does a pretty decent overview - though not a critical one.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;948304WotC never made a D&D infomercial. And that's because they are really expensive to produce. Well beyond the budget Hasbro grants them.

They did in a way for 4e. And it backfired so spectacularly. One reason WOTC hasnt done much with D&D like cartoons or movies is mainly Solomon still blockading them from making any sort of movie or TV media for D&D. Wether that extends to commercials is anyones guess. And after Hasbro got burned on a few movie deals they pulled back even more.

As for this "documentary"... er... That was... special.

Im really not sure what the hell that is. It looks more like an advertisement disguised as a documentary. WOTC did much the same on a much smaller scale once.

This could all just be an "outrage advertising" ploy some marketing people think is a great idea. Could be just more pretentious twattery. Could be anything. But yeah it does come across as pretentious. And just plain false in a few spots. Which probably means its more likely and outrage advertising gag.

Who knows. The storm will die down sooner or later.

Quote from: Omega;948356They did in a way for 4e. And it backfired so spectacularly.

It did?  I seem to remember that 4e's initial release was very successful and it was only after people got into it and didn't like the mechanics that it failed.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;948335Nor do they pander to an atmosphere of "us vs. them". When it comes to the relationship between outspoken critics and game authors.

Pundits' blog jeremiads against 'Swine', WoD, Ron Edwards and others doesn't create an atmopshere of 'us vs. them'? Not so sure about that but I guess we stay OT and avoid another political derail.

When VtM was at its peak my involvement in the RPG 'community' didn't extend past reading the occasional issue of Dragon so I never saw any patronizing talk from WW. Any actual quotes or text to that effect?

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;948323I have never been into clubs, but back in the 90s, I definitely knew local gamers who went to clubs. And I remember here in Boston there was a goth club called the Manray, and I've known gamers who went there (especially among the WoD crowd). I don't think anyone in my immediate gaming group went as far as I can remember.

I suspect some WOD or cyberpunk gamers went to clubs to see if they were anything like that was being described in the games.

Similar to how some players will hit up museums to see real examples of weapons or armour. Or go out hiking and/or camping and/or caving. Or learned swordplay, smithing, costuming etc.

I'd lay good odds there are Traveller players who have visited space museums or gotten into model rocketry.

So checking out a club isnt anything special in and of itself.

Quote from: Baulderstone;948325What happened to it? You mean like the good old days when we had TSR's Dragon, Games Workshop's White Dwarf, Stever Jackson's Pyramid, GDWs Challenge, and White Wolf's, er, White Wolf to keep the industry honest? Those were the days!

There was a time when all, or at least most (aside from White Wolf/Inphobia/Whateverthehell), were actually rather honest about product and posted reviews of their own material by outside reviewers. Some of which was not all praise. Unfortunately most also eventually degenerated into self focused monstrosities. Dragon and White Dwarf being the twin posterchildren for monumental failure.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;948297Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay

You linked to your product while writing "warhammer fantasy roleplay".  Zweihander is NOT Warhammer.

Don't do that again. Consider this a formal moderator warning.  

We give tons of leeway to regularly-posting members to write and promote their games on here, because I think that's fine, a lot of readers will be interested in the games RPGsite members are making. So if you are an RPG-designer, please try not to abuse that permissiveness.

Quote from: RF Victor;948269This is the *definition* of SWINERY right there. As a "documentary." Expressed as "the truth."

They are not saying "some gamers were treated like losers back then, there was prejudice." They are saying "gamers WERE losers, dirty nerdy losers, look at how SAD they looked back then before VAMPIRE, the first mature, adult, relevant game for COOL PEOPLE indivisible from the club scene."

It's official now: White Wolf stereotypes are all true!

Even the folks at the Big Purple are against it.

https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?799220-New-White-Wolf-quot-Before-Vampire-RPGs-were-all-childish-fantasy-games-for-losers!-quot

It's not like WoD hasn't been doing that since FOREVER.  They've ALWAYS been about calling D&D gamers the 'great unwashed'.

Dragon and White Dwarf's degeneration into game company organs were inevitable since that was who owned them. What was needed was a magazine incorporated as a business or non-profit all on its own with enough advertising revenue to be a viable and ongoing concern.