I watch a few YouTube gaming podcasts each week by various people. One of them is "Bear the Forever GM", or his other channel, The Society of Role-Playing Gamers.
Bear just launched his own RPG on Backerkit for his passion, super heroes. It is called Heroic RPG. FYI he is using that site as it works better for Canadians like himself, somehow.
https://www.backerkit.com/c/projects/zeg-media/heroic-the-role-playing-game?ref=bk-discover-search (https://www.backerkit.com/c/projects/zeg-media/heroic-the-role-playing-game?ref=bk-discover-search)
It is based on FASERIP system from Marvel RPG, but with some changes (house rules really) that he has used and play tested for over 15 years.
Things like comparing skill levels of two combatants and that having an effect when making a skill check. In original FASERIP Aunt May had just as much chance to shoot Spider-man as she did Larry Lumpkin (Bear's quote, not mine). This time, not so much.
It is also set in his own comic book setting of 198X, the "bronze age" of comics when they got serious, but still had older tropes like fancy costumes with secret identities. You also get the first two comic book PDF's for free.
His crowdfunding is trying to get to $15,000, and after just two days they're already at $10,000. It's likely to be funded either way.
I backed it. It looks like a decent game, and I don't have a FASERIP game in dead tree format, so why not this version?
Or do we not need another version?
Here is the episode of "TableBreakers" podcast that Bear was on and talked about Super Hero games as a whole. The term used was, "A masterclass in superhero gaming".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avmBdVQKr88 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avmBdVQKr88)
THIS is one of the reasons I am here hyping it up that we should support this guy. He knows Super Hero games, and has run them for decades. It is his genre.
He also comes across as really smart and clever. I think we can trust him to know what he is doing.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on March 03, 2024, 07:02:49 AM
He also comes across as really smart and clever. I think we can trust him to know what he is doing.
This kind of statement makes me cringe knowing how often it all goes bad soon after...
I'll check this out. But if I was looking for a decent FASERIP clone without having to go hunting for old Marvel sourcebooks, what would be the best recommendation for currently released games?
Update for March 4th. Funding is only about $1500 away from the needed $15,000 asked for.
It looks like this one is happening.
I'm happy for Bear. I've seen him talk about Super Hero RPGs quite a lot. He says Marvel FASERIP system is one of his two favorite systems, along with West End Games D6.
Quote from: King Tyranno on March 03, 2024, 01:12:40 PM
I'll check this out. But if I was looking for a decent FASERIP clone without having to go hunting for old Marvel sourcebooks, what would be the best recommendation for currently released games?
Clone? How about this one literally called FASERIP.
https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/177913/Faserip (https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/177913/Faserip)
It's also free.
Bear's game isn't free, as he is paying for art. He is also making a few changes as I mentioned. For example, his will technically be FASERIPD as he is adding another stat called Dynamics. It's Charm by another name to keep the acronyms working. Or the change I mentioned above where a skill check is modified by the enemy skill level
Quote from: King Tyranno on March 03, 2024, 01:12:40 PM
I'll check this out. But if I was looking for a decent FASERIP clone without having to go hunting for old Marvel sourcebooks, what would be the best recommendation for currently released games?
Here's every book in one place:
https://www.classicmarvelforever.com/cms/downloads.html (https://www.classicmarvelforever.com/cms/downloads.html)
As someone that is about as deep as one can get into MSH... I'm always eyeballing retroclones. The problem is I have my own set of houserules that does what I need the system to do (and do it magnificently). The core MSH system has what I think is a big flaw "The Aunt May Issue" which I've fixed, but none of the retroclones have.
Some might not think it's an issue at all.
Effectively the issue is that RAW, Aunt May could clock Captain America upside his head if she rolls 66 or higher, no matter what kind of defensive maneuver Cap uses (outside of Evade). It has *nothing* to do with Cap's actual fighting skill, or stats. It's just due to the fact that combat has no relative value. Cap or Spiderman could get a Red Dodge, and Aunt May could still hit them.
My comicbook logic screams bullshit to this (and I always have).
That said - I'll still look at this, because the core rules are still some of the best design ever. I'll still wait until I can see what it gives me that I don't already have...
Edit: Oo pre-beta. Checking it out now.
So I read the entire PDF.
- 85% of my personal house-rules are baked into this system. I'm very impressed.
- The "Aunt May Issue" - fully addressed. I'll even go so far to say his solution is an improvement on mine. THIS one is a *major* win.
- Fully developed character generation systemS. Yes plural. You can do your random gen, negotiated generation, or point-buy. All are well conceived and executed.
- Deeper integration of mechanics. The core Talent, Contacts, and Resource mechanics are fluffed up and much more integrated. The new Quirks rules are excellent. The gear and repair/creation rules are concise and have mechanical consistency. All the added crunch is minimal - but the integration of them makes an already strong system *much* stronger
- Powers/Stunts/Enhancements - almost exactly how I do them. He codified everything nearly perfectly. Yes, he could do with more robust descriptions of certain powers, but he's clearly shown he's given more than enough thought and how they can be expressed mechanically to give any GM enough to make their own shit up with confidence.
- CLEAN decoupling of Karma from Advancement rules. Another major win.
Let me say this very clearly. It's an *Unearthly* FEAT check to impress me with Supers mechanics. Which is why most Supers systems fail for me: I have my modified MSH rules and they will stand and bang against any other game or system out there, regardless of genre. I've been running MSH since its inception, and I've never stopped running it. I know it inside and out. Showing me a modified MSH ruleset is a Class 1000 FEAT to impress me. I've seen many of them come and go. Actual published rules, home-brews galore. etc. VERY few have ever been "complete", most are just the MSH rules with misconceived understanding of the mechanics, or slight tweaks in places that do not address any real problems.
Reading just this "beta" has deeply impressed me. This is a Red Result on the Class 1000 column.
His specific solution to the Aunt May issue is *exactly* like mine, but better because he put it into a FUCKING GLORIOUS chart for easy reference.
(https://i.imgur.com/GsbCiNY.png)
Nevermind he added new Power Ranks, never mind he added new Degrees of success, nevermind all that stuff...
Okay, for those of you that don't play MSH and oddly are reading my post, if there is
*ONE* thing you can take away from my rant, AND you fashion yourself a game designer, let it be this one single thing:
DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF A WELL DESIGNED CHART OR GRAPHIC. Especially if it can explain your core rules and task resolution.
The BIG change he (and I) made was to make melee and ranged combat RELATIVE to the combatants. In this manner, it was nearly impossible for Aunt May to ever hit Spiderman or Captain America in hand-to-hand or ranged combat. Since I'm so familiar with MSH, I simply pegged everything to the Typical Column and shifted everyone up/down based on their stat-differences. It's easy for my brain to figure it out. My players? eh.
But this chart does it *all* right there in front of you. There is no functional difference between his rule and mine, but his is 1000% better because of this glorious chart. Everything else is *moot*.
I went over everything else, there's a few minor quibbles, but this is the modern MSH system we should all be playing. MOTHERFUCKING EXCELCIOR!
Consider this BACKED. Take my fucking money.
Update: the project hit its primary funding goal of $15,000 Canadian just a few minutes ago as I post this.
From now on all additional money is for stretch goals.
Here is a link to a live stream Bear did when the Backerkit passed the funded limit at about 15 minutes into his stream.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHKuZ2wm4co (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHKuZ2wm4co)
Quote from: tenbones on March 04, 2024, 02:15:31 PM
So I read the entire PDF.
- 85% of my personal house-rules are baked into this system. I'm very impressed.
<snip>
[/list]
Consider this BACKED. Take my fucking money.
Well, here I thought I was excited to see this game. Hats off to you, Tenbones. I'm also happy you posted your opinion as I don't have any experience with FASERIP. An expert giving this praise counts for a lot.
https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/379178/Astonishing-Super-Heroes-Book-1-Basic-Rulebook (https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/379178/Astonishing-Super-Heroes-Book-1-Basic-Rulebook)
I see it has 86 days left on Backerkit. That is a looooooong wait.
Quote from: Batjon on March 04, 2024, 07:35:31 PM
I see it has 86 days left on Backerkit. That is a looooooong wait.
During the Live Stream on YouTube Bear gets an email from BackerKit asking if he wants to shorten his fundraising to 60 days or such. FYI, Bear actually made an mistake and was only going to put up the pledge time as 60 days originally, but somehow ended up with 90 days. I haven't watched the entire 2-hour long live stream recording to see if Bear makes the change or not. He left it as, "I'll have to think about that."
I do think it is kind of interesting that BackerKit gives the option to shorten the pledge time if your initial goal is met so early into your time allotted.
He also expects the finished products to be done around Christmas time of this year, so don't be expecting the finished game next week either way.
So, I have no experience with FASERIP, or Bear's modified version of it.
I believe I understand it to work this way.
If I have a skill for playing music, and so does my arch nemesis, and we get into a Battle-of-the-Bands at the club one night it would work like this.
If our skill for playing music are the same, I would roll 1D100 on the "Shift-0" line right in the middle of the Universal table. Note: The white "failure" state is not on the chart. 01 (blue) is a fumble, 02 to 49 is a white/normal failure (again, not depicted on the Universal Chart), 50 to 74 is a green/normal success, 75 to 97 is a gold Success with additional bonus result, and 98 to 100 is a red critical success with lots of extras for winning.
It would not matter if we were both feeble musicians, typical, amazing, or cosmic level musicians. If we're the same skill level, it is a 50/50 toss up who is going to win the music battle.
However, If I were Amazing, and my nemesis was only Typical skill level, I am rolling on the chart with a +5 column shift (aka the +5CS line). Then I have a 1D100 roll with 01 as a blue critical fail, 2-24 as a white normal fail (not depicted on the chart), 25 to 49 as a green success, 50 to 74 as a gold success with bonus, and 75 to 100 as a red critical success.
That sound about right?
That is correct!
MSH is a strangely "modern" game design that happened to be created by Jeff Grubb that would take the TTRPG industry 30-years to catch up to. DC Heroes, gets a nod too. The biggest flaw in the system (and it certainly wasn't a deal-breaker) was this lack of relative ability in the mechanics having no value.
D&D possesses this same problem. Being a 20th-lvl Fighter on paper means nothing in terms of actually being hit by a 3rd-lvl Fighter in combat. D&D obfuscates this by gear and the abstraction of HP. MSH actually has mechanics that are used in other aspects of the game that *do* leverage these relative differences - the Auto Success rule where if you're Rank is 3 Ranks higher than the Difficulty Rank it's automatic success. But this is not used in combat. You *could* use it, but it would cause a cascade of other tweaks you'd have to do for other rules.
I spent a couple of years really thinking about it, and it *always* irritated me for decades. My solution was, ironically, influenced by Savage Worlds. The goal was to introduce a relative mechanic comparison, but it *had* to not cause the cascade effect. Here's the funny part - I was discussing the problem with this other MSH GM and she was very much interested in this idea, and we both kept going down these rabbit-holes that solved the relativity part, but it *always* caused the cascade failure where we'd have to revise the Talent system, and the rest of the Offensive/Defensive manuevers, and at that point it meant we were creating an entirely new system. The whole point was to maintain backwards compatibility.
The solution was not using a direct comparison of ability Ranks per se. It was to pin the action to a specific column. The obvious choice was the Typical Column. Then we Add/Subract the differences for contested rolls - and voila. It was a revelation. I wasn't even sure it would work. I had a friend of mine play Captain America, and I had him take on a dozen Hand Ninjas in a warehouse. It *felt* exactly right. My players were super-skeptical, I told them to trust me. I ran an entire campaign that lasted over a year, and of course they're sold.
The WEIRD part was I was telling all the guys on the Non-Official Marvel Canon Project discord about it, the torchbearer of the MSH world! And the half of them were heatedly arguing with me about it as if I shit on the Holy Grail. I just kind of shrugged and moved on. It's been part of my homebrew rules ever since. Seeing this rule here in this HEROIC system warms me to no end.
I watched some videos of Bear, and that guy is definitely from my tribe. He gets it. His comicbook GMing views are *exactly* like mine. I was eerily laughing at his self-deprecation explaining to Supers gaming to GM's with less experience that struggle with it. I know that conversation all too well - we both have consumed so much comicbook lore in our youth, that we're self-conscious about talking shop to GM's that think running a Supers game is just like running D&D. It's not. But it's easy to come off as condescending to those that don't understand it. Watching Bear explain it to them made me die laughing.
Anyhow... IF nothing else, you can download his free beta-rules and run whatever you want with them. MSH is an insanely strong and durable system. You can run **any** genre of game you want with it. I've tricked my players into playing D&D fantasy with it by having their PC's get cursed by Loki and transported to Asgard where they had to pick up weapons and armor and fight their way across Jotunheim, quest for magical treasures, save people, learn and perform Asgardian magic rituals that would after many sessions send them home.
The realization hit them right towards the end, "dude... we've been playing D&D!!!!" /wink Gotcha bitches!
MSH and now Heroic! deserves much love. Give it to them.
Not mentioned, but have been using it for the last four years, the old Mayfair DC Heroes game commonly referred to as MEGS. Mayfair Exponential Game System. It does what TSR Marvel was doing, but better enough to sell me on it after looking at all the old and the new available to run supers. This game Heroic looks to lean on some of those strengths. DC Heroes strengths are; solving the Aunt May problem, MEGS doesn't have it, degrees of success, narrative control by players with the use of Hero Points, best rules for super speed, auto fire, team attacks and multi-attacks I've seen and one roll gives you both your to hit result, degree of success and effect of damage. This book being produced sounds like a must read for myself. The old Marvel and DC games share many similar good qualities which are now being considered as discovered by narrative story games. I hate the word bloat of the original DC Heroes rule books. This sounds like it will give me good insight on how to give DC Heroes/The Blood of Heroes a minimalist treatment.
Whitefrank has a series of games based on the FASERIP system. His games are available on drivethru.
Quote from: the crypt keeper on March 05, 2024, 09:01:28 PM
Not mentioned, but have been using it for the last four years, the old Mayfair DC Heroes game commonly referred to as MEGS. Mayfair Exponential Game System. It does what TSR Marvel was doing, but better enough to sell me on it after looking at all the old and the new available to run supers. This game Heroic looks to lean on some of those strengths. DC Heroes strengths are; solving the Aunt May problem, MEGS doesn't have it, degrees of success, narrative control by players with the use of Hero Points, best rules for super speed, auto fire, team attacks and multi-attacks I've seen and one roll gives you both your to hit result, degree of success and effect of damage. This book being produced sounds like a must read for myself. The old Marvel and DC games share many similar good qualities which are now being considered as discovered by narrative story games. I hate the word bloat of the original DC Heroes rule books. This sounds like it will give me good insight on how to give DC Heroes/The Blood of Heroes a minimalist treatment.
MEGS is superb. I mentioned it above. But the real value in MSH is the sheer level of support for it as well as the availability of all the former product. I'd argue the fan-material, especially from the Unofficial Canon Project is as-good to superior to the original stuff. MEGS definitely has the mechanical oomph to do the job for sure. If I weren't so invested in MSH, I'd have zero problems running MEGS.
I'm currently in the middle of a Savage Forgotten Realms campaign. But I've already put everyone on notice - when this campaign eventually wraps up, we're running MSH and I'll be using the HEROIC! beta rules with it. I got precisely *zero* complaints.
I should have probably mentioned this sooner.
The beta rules are on DT-RPG for free.
https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/404752/zenith-comics-presents-heroic-the-rpg-beta-playtest-edition (https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/404752/zenith-comics-presents-heroic-the-rpg-beta-playtest-edition)
They're clearly beta. No index or table of contents, no art, single column layout, and more. The finished game will likely be dual column format based on the promo images on BackerKit.
Yeah. Anyone with any experience with MSH can see how these rules apply. You could easily use those Beta rules right now, along with his chart and let'er rip.
Well, I mentioned it as there is a link to download the beta rules on the BackerKit page if you pledge. I didn't want people thinking the only way to get the rules was to be a backer.
The beta rules are rough around the edges by quite a bit, but they're fully functional rules.
I like that different chapters use different colors in particular.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on March 04, 2024, 08:41:01 PM
So, I have no experience with FASERIP, or Bear's modified version of it.
I believe I understand it to work this way.
If I have a skill for playing music, and so does my arch nemesis, and we get into a Battle-of-the-Bands at the club one night it would work like this.
If our skill for playing music are the same, I would roll 1D100 on the "Shift-0" line right n the middle of the Universal table. Note: The white "failure" state is not on the chart. 01 (blue) is a fumble, 02 to 49 is a white/normal failure (again, not depicted on the Universal Chart), 50 to 74 is a green/normal success, 75 to 97 is a gold Success with additional bonus result, and 98 to 100 is a red critical success with lots of extras for winning.
It would not matter if we were both feeble musicians, typical, amazing, or cosmic level musicians. If we're the same skill level, it is a 50/50 toss up who is going to win the music battle.
However, If I were Amazing, and my nemesis was only Typical skill level, I am rolling on the chart with a +5 column shift (aka the +5CS line). Then I have a 1D100 roll with 01 as a blue critical fail, 2-24 as a white normal fail (not depicted on the chart), 25 to 49 as a green success, 50 to 74 as a gold success with bonus, and 75 to 100 as a red critical success.
That sound about right?
So did this guy have a bet with his buddy to see who could design the least elegant resolution mechanic or something?
Quote from: Domina on March 06, 2024, 11:44:58 PM
So did this guy have a bet with his buddy to see who could design the least elegant resolution mechanic or something?
Quite the opposite.
The people who swear by the FASERIP system have always bragged that the one chart on the back cover of the rulebook was the entire game. It is used for all conflict resolutions. You don't need lots and lots of specialized rules for interrogation, land navigation, gambling, crafting, etc. that many games have. You just need the chart.
As we mentioned above, it wasn't perfect. Direct, head-to-head conflicts didn't compare the skill of the two involved. If I'm feeble at shooting a gun, taking a shot at Spider-Man is the same odds as shooting at a Galapagos tortoise, at least in old FASERIP. Bear's new game, Heroic doesn't have that flaw.
Like I said, FASERIP style rules are popular for having a single mechanic that covers it all, and actually works well.
It's why I chose a music battle. It works just as well as if I said they were punching each other or competing in a golf tournament.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on March 04, 2024, 08:41:01 PM
So, I have no experience with FASERIP, or Bear's modified version of it.
I believe I understand it to work this way.
If I have a skill for playing music, and so does my arch nemesis, and we get into a Battle-of-the-Bands at the club one night it would work like this.
If our skill for playing music are the same, I would roll 1D100 on the "Shift-0" line right in the middle of the Universal table. Note: The white "failure" state is not on the chart. 01 (blue) is a fumble, 02 to 49 is a white/normal failure (again, not depicted on the Universal Chart), 50 to 74 is a green/normal success, 75 to 97 is a gold Success with additional bonus result, and 98 to 100 is a red critical success with lots of extras for winning.
It would not matter if we were both feeble musicians, typical, amazing, or cosmic level musicians. If we're the same skill level, it is a 50/50 toss up who is going to win the music battle.
However, If I were Amazing, and my nemesis was only Typical skill level, I am rolling on the chart with a +5 column shift (aka the +5CS line). Then I have a 1D100 roll with 01 as a blue critical fail, 2-24 as a white normal fail (not depicted on the chart), 25 to 49 as a green success, 50 to 74 as a gold success with bonus, and 75 to 100 as a red critical success.
That sound about right?
This is brilliant. I was majorly confused by the universal table for this game compared to MSH. Which was my mistake. I was trying to assign the MSH style ranking system and getting confused as to the point of the ranking system at all if it's not lining up with the columns. I'm used to ranks lining up with the columns.
From what I understand now, the ranks are only important in comparison to others to measure column shifts. At first I assumed that meant that if I'm just doing normal tests without other people i'm just rolling Column 0 regardless of my rank. But then realized I think they want you as the GM to assign every kind of test a rank to compare to. IE: lifting a giant pile of steal beams is an Amazing test so compare that with your strength rank.
I like the beta book so far. But I think it could've been clearer on this. The book just says "the GM assigns a target number" like it's some generic percentile roll. This will confuse a lot of people as it doesn't mention how the system works beyond how it relates to opposed tests. So just change that to "the gm assigns a rank for a test, the PC compares that to the rank of a relevant power or stat and shifts coloums on the tables by the difference. Positive or negative. Then roll on the relevent column."
Yes to a point.
You only do the comparison vs. contested combat checks. Otherwise everything is the normal absolute values. Lifting a 50-ton tank, is *always* an AM(50) Feat check.
But fighting against Captain America, whose fighting is AM(50) - is relative to *your* Fighting Rank. A normal person is rolling on the -5CS column on the Universal Table.
Ranged attacks compare Agility. But! in the Beta rules he uses the same rule I do - if you can justify a power or stat to be used in lieu of the normal resolution comparison, you can. For example, when someone has the Hyperspeed Powerset (another rule I've used for years), you can use your Hyperspeed Power rank to make Agility-based rolls.
it needs to be said: these beta rules (and therefore likely the completed projected) is *100%* compatible with the regular MSH rules and secondary content.
Backed.
I'm just putting the finishing touches on a personal project involving the Marvel game and was reminded (whilst proof reading and putting the thing together) of the various niggles I had with the game back in the day.
It's nothing fancy - take the OCR'd PDFs that have been on the internet for years, fix the typos, add color and print/bind. Art is nicked from whatever I could grab from the internet. All for personal use, not for sale or publication etc.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kGY47P9N/1710005595008.jpg)
Tweaking covers here. Print/bound two copies to see what I think. Probably settle somewhere in the middle.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZYw08p39/1710005595029.jpg)
Chapters color coded. Seems to be a thing these days.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rwrm2HHW/1710005595044.jpg)
Nothing added or deleted, just corrected and otherwise as it was when published in 1991. Edit: Ha! Just seen a typo to fix!
(https://i.postimg.cc/L6h5N5Bx/1710005612120.jpg)
Writeups as per 1990/91. Loads of characters have changed/died/become more or less popular etc since then.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2ySypSp8/1710005612141.jpg)
For me Spider-man is the default for a Marvel game. Aside from being the most popular/flagship character for Marvel if you get the write up right you can work up/down for the other characters.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KvVzVb0x/1710005612170.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Took a couple of months to do and in that time I scrapped/started again four times.
Anyway, thought I'd mention as the announcement of a new version of the FASERIP game might fix the problems I have with this and previous versions (I was never a great fan of Advanced - DC heroes is a better system for me anyway. Your mileage may vary).
Backed the Heroic game, looking forward to seeing the changes it brings to this excellent but flawed (not drastically but the examples of Fighting vs Agility upthread are what I'm talking about) system.
Hey, Ten Bones. I mentioned your post to Bear and he came here and had a look at it. You must have made an impression, because during his latest podcast (he just hit $20,000 and ALL of his stretch goals) he talked about you.
Here is the video. Skip to 00:23:23 where I mentioned you again, and then he brings up pleasing fans like you at 1:14:00.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5rYXmPPcXE&t=4818s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5rYXmPPcXE&t=4818s)
I think you helped make him happy.
Quote from: tenbones on March 06, 2024, 12:34:15 AM
MEGS is superb.
MSH does Marvel well, MEGS does DC well. I guess that's why I don't like "generic" comicbook RPGs (or generic RPGs, in general) because a game should be designed to fit the source material. Contrast with Modiphius crap which twists the source material to fit their system. WEG Star Wars is the prime example of how to make a system to fit the source. It's the perfect game in all ways.
Anyway, the Aunt May problem...IN GENRE, it makes sense. It really does. I mean fucking Thanos had a helicopter that got shot down and Squirrel Girl curbstomped Doctor Doom and other superheavies (although I realize the last one is just because SG is the most powerful being in the Marvel Universe but whatever). So, if Aunt May somehow manages to knock the shit out of Thor with her purse in one panel, no one bats an eye. It's just the sort of illogical bullshit that happens in comics. Realistically, Spider-Man could literally solo 99% of the Marvel universe, but he doesn't for whatever reason. Hulk could just throw NYC into the sun if he got pissed off enough, but he doesn't. Magneto might get annoyed and move the Earth off its axis but he doesn't. Comics don't make a lot of sense sometimes. I DO understand why a game needs to be consistent, but MSH lets you play in the comic world, and the comic world has very stupid and inconsistent crap. That said, if your point is PCs shouldn't be able to just roll really well and have streetclothes Harry Osborn knockout Peter Parker during a lunchroom spat, okay. But if it happened in the comics, would you be surprised?
Sure, but it's still a game, not an attempt to literally emulate the silliest aspects of another medium.
And in MSH it could still happen even with the Aunt May Rule - that literally is what Karma is for, and in the advent of the rule, still works. The problem with the Aunt May rule is not that it puts invalids in their proper narrative place, it's that the rules of the System are at odds with their own task-resolution system RAW. You can make any challenge a Feat with a Rank, you even have auto-success rules (+3CS or higher is auto-success). The problem is that they are not unified in their use.
The Aunt May Rule unifies *all* of them, and makes the entire system better and more cohesive (in an already very cohesive system). I've said this for many years, MSH tweaked correctly could be an extremely formidable universal game system. I've run it for fantasy, sci-fi, horror - within the context of my Supers campaigns and it gobbles it down without missing a beat.
This Heroic system goes a long way to proving it. Just needs to get people to give it a whirl.
Speaking of which - the 2.2 Beta rules dropped today. I'm going over them and I've decided I'll make some comments about the differences between MSH and Heroic.
While I admire the ethos I still can't get behind this system. Everything it does could be more coherently achieved by using a log table like MEGS and TORG. And those systems could be further refined by removing some of the steps used to generate the final results. I do like how it's method rather than effect based. In other words what you're trying to achieve is independent from how you're trying to achieve it, which opens things up to more creative, and dare I say heroic, solutions.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 11, 2024, 02:08:03 AM
While I admire the ethos I still can't get behind this system. Everything it does could be more coherently achieved by using a log table like MEGS and TORG. And those systems could be further refined by removing some of the steps used to generate the final results. I do like how it's method rather than effect based. In other words what you're trying to achieve is independent from how you're trying to achieve it, which opens things up to more creative, and dare I say heroic, solutions.
I would say for those used to more traditional task resolution mechanics that MSH can be very confusing. But that's more down to both MSH and Heroic rulebooks being very poor at actually explaining what is a very simple and intuitive form of task resolution. It's not all that convoluted. You have a rank in a stat or skill. Roll on the relevant column on the universal table. In Heroic you shift the column you roll on based on the rank of an opposing character's relevent stat. You can easily compare someone's Remarkable strength versus another's Amazing strength to see who has a better chance of succeding in a test. Which is something other RPGs struggle with.
I do think Heroic could use a syntax checker who can specificallt point out when certain passages are too convoluted. A quick one or two sentence task resolution explanation in simple language would do wonders. Especially for people who aren't familiar with MSH.
Quote from: King Tyranno on March 11, 2024, 06:42:19 AM
I would say for those used to more traditional task resolution mechanics that MSH can be very confusing. But that's more down to both MSH and Heroic rulebooks being very poor at actually explaining what is a very simple and intuitive form of task resolution. It's not all that convoluted.
It's an intuitive resolution system obscured by a number of unnecessary elements such as using words to describe the magnitudes and multiple colors in an odd order. And up until now I didn't see what it was actually trying to do.
Quote from: King Tyranno on March 11, 2024, 06:42:19 AMYou have a rank in a stat or skill. Roll on the relevant column on the universal table. In Heroic you shift the column you roll on based on the rank of an opposing character's relevent stat. You can easily compare someone's Remarkable strength versus another's Amazing strength to see who has a better chance of succeding in a test. Which is something other RPGs struggle with.
Which is exactly what log tables and metric conversions allow for.
Quote from: King Tyranno on March 11, 2024, 06:42:19 AMI do think Heroic could use a syntax checker who can specificallt point out when certain passages are too convoluted. A quick one or two sentence task resolution explanation in simple language would do wonders. Especially for people who aren't familiar with MSH.
I think they'll get there, but then again I'm not sure if this is even intended for folks who aren't familiar with MSH.
Completely agree with both of you.
I am about as deep as one can possibly get into MSH (less so with MEGS but I'm very familiar with it) and reading Heroic's beta rules is not something I'd recommend for the uninitiated. The explanations are understandable to me only because of my experience with MSH. Otherwise they come off... odd and overly verbose.
MEGS *feels* closer to traditional mechanics (read: d20) because its task resolution requires a similar number of calculations - You hit/do action, consult chart, THEN you compare and consult another chart for the effect. Which is equal to the Roll to Hit, Roll to Damage, reset for results. This is *not* to say that MEGS is functionally doing anything other than MSH does - in fact imo, it did it better because it addresses degrees of success, and it does relative comparison to extrapolate results. Where MEGS drops the ball vs. MSH (a TOTALLY MINOR QUIBBLE to me) is they force you to consult a second table for the results. MSH uses their direct stats for values, MEGS does too, BUT they modulate those values based on the Results table which isn't as intuitive.
The results of MEGS in play, once you get over this final calculation hump, which compared to pretty much all other TTRPG's today is *nothing* - is a spectacularly good system, but it's *slightly* more complex (only by a hair) than MSH. Blood of Heroes showed it could easily scratch the DC Heroes material off and it would run perfectly great in other genres with a little development. In fact... I'm a little shocked no one has taken another crack at it.
I also think the presentation of MEGS *today* loses to MSH simply because... and it's sad to say... because it's black and white (with a dash of red). Looking at that chart is intimidating to modern gamers. Old school gamers devour that stuff - we're used to Gary's tables in the DMG/PHB 1e. Or played Rolemaster... nothing intimidates us. But something about looking a MSH's Universal Table seems to be more pleasing for newcomers. That's my anecdotal personal experience from introducing them to Supers play, and pitching both MEGS and MSH. *Every* single time, all these groups chose MSH based on two things: 1) MSH uses one table for everything 2) It looked more fun (colors! WHEE!). MEGS can and does everything that MSH does, it just does it with slightly more granularity and it has less fan-support by comparison. That's my primary issue - MSH has soooo much material out there from other sources now. MEGS has some, but it's not even close in comparison.
Side note - we should start a MEGS Retroclone thread that's genre neutral. It would make a fabulous universal system.
As for Heroic beta 2.2 - I did find some completely missing paragraphs, spelling errors, and new sub-systems that to me are more convoluted in the explanation than the actual rules themselves. I'm doing my passthrough now.
Hey folks!
I just wanted to stop in and say hi, as I see quite a lively discussion going on here and that makes me happy.
I agree the Universal Table System (since we don't have a cool term like MEGS, and FASERIP grinds my teeth, always has) is not the be-all and end-all of superhero games. No game really is, but for me it is the one I love the most. So, I take it as it comes.
As for the typos, and stuff, we are working on that, hence the beta qualification of the available docs. We would love to hear from you all about what you are finding that isn't clear, needs better explanation, or maybe even less.
Remember the Beta is a combination of 4 different writers, and sometimes that gets a bit confusing. Between v2.1 and 2.2 I literally found rules in the document that had been replaced and were no longer valid sitting there... (I'm looking at you Popularity!).
One of my big thistles is the Drive Section. The original writer was tasked with combining Profiles from ASH with the Callings that we lifted from MSHAG, and instead just gave me EVERY Profile... so that's be reworked, for example... but enough of my ramblings.
We invite you to join our Discord (https://discord.gg/FBKp5aXKP8) if you wish to talk with others who are exploring HEROIC with us, or ask your questions/make your comments here, I will get email notifications when replies happen for sure.
Thank you again for discussing this little passion project of mine and I am positive your input can help make it an even superior final product!
Peace, love, geek.
Quote from: tenbones on March 11, 2024, 11:28:33 AM
Side note - we should start a MEGS Retroclone thread that's genre neutral. It would make a fabulous universal system.
Tenbones,
What's the cheapest way to get the MEGS system?
Backed it two days ago. I will probably have a difficult time getting my group to play it, but I want to support people reviving and revising good systems.
Quote from: Bear on March 11, 2024, 07:11:42 PM
Hey folks!
I just wanted to stop in and say hi, as I see quite a lively discussion going on here and that makes me happy.
I agree the Universal Table System (since we don't have a cool term like MEGS, and FASERIP grinds my teeth, always has) is not the be-all and end-all of superhero games. No game really is, but for me it is the one I love the most. So, I take it as it comes.
As for the typos, and stuff, we are working on that, hence the beta qualification of the available docs. We would love to hear from you all about what you are finding that isn't clear, needs better explanation, or maybe even less.
Remember the Beta is a combination of 4 different writers, and sometimes that gets a bit confusing. Between v2.1 and 2.2 I literally found rules in the document that had been replaced and were no longer valid sitting there... (I'm looking at you Popularity!).
One of my big thistles is the Drive Section. The original writer was tasked with combining Profiles from ASH with the Callings that we lifted from MSHAG, and instead just gave me EVERY Profile... so that's be reworked, for example... but enough of my ramblings.
We invite you to join our Discord (https://discord.gg/FBKp5aXKP8) if you wish to talk with others who are exploring HEROIC with us, or ask your questions/make your comments here, I will get email notifications when replies happen for sure.
Thank you again for discussing this little passion project of mine and I am positive your input can help make it an even superior final product!
Peace, love, geek.
I get it's a beta - Not holding it against you at all. It's just mechanics for people to play with. Frankly I think for any MSH GM they'll see it for what it is - a much needed update. I admit I'm very happy that a lot of your ideas reflect my own, so you know... I'm biased LOL.
I plan on giving it a good once thrice-over and even as is, I definitely like what I see. I'll post my constructive thoughts here and on your Discord. Very excited for your project and want it to be the best it can be.
Quote from: Aglondir on March 11, 2024, 09:24:24 PM
Quote from: tenbones on March 11, 2024, 11:28:33 AM
Side note - we should start a MEGS Retroclone thread that's genre neutral. It would make a fabulous universal system.
Tenbones,
What's the cheapest way to get the MEGS system?
The easiest way to get it is to buy DC Heroes off Ebay. You can find DC Heroes on Ebay for around $60-70 last I checked.
Blood of Heroes, which is MEGS with the DC stuff removed. It's 99.9% MEGS. That's what I own. I also own the actual MEGS rules - but I think it's in my attic somewhere. Buying BoH is *expensive* and not really worth it.
Quote from: tenbones on March 12, 2024, 12:55:17 AM
Quote from: Aglondir on March 11, 2024, 09:24:24 PM
Quote from: tenbones on March 11, 2024, 11:28:33 AM
Side note - we should start a MEGS Retroclone thread that's genre neutral. It would make a fabulous universal system.
Tenbones,
What's the cheapest way to get the MEGS system?
The easiest way to get it is to buy DC Heroes off Ebay. You can find DC Heroes on Ebay for around $60-70 last I checked.
Blood of Heroes, which is MEGS with the DC stuff removed. It's 99.9% MEGS. That's what I own. I also own the actual MEGS rules - but I think it's in my attic somewhere. Buying BoH is *expensive* and not really worth it.
We definitely need a retroclone.
I'd love to see some actual plays which test the extremes just to see where things break.
Quote from: Bear on March 11, 2024, 07:11:42 PM
I agree the Universal Table System (since we don't have a cool term like MEGS, and FASERIP grinds my teeth, always has) is not the be-all and end-all of superhero games. No game really is, but for me it is the one I love the most. So, I take it as it comes.
After a certain point the 'quirks' of a system become part of the charm, which is one reason design in this space is so difficult and many 'better' systems end up failing.
Quote from: tenbones on March 12, 2024, 12:50:53 AM
I get it's a beta - Not holding it against you at all. It's just mechanics for people to play with. Frankly I think for any MSH GM they'll see it for what it is - a much needed update. I admit I'm very happy that a lot of your ideas reflect my own, so you know... I'm biased LOL.
I plan on giving it a good once thrice-over and even as is, I definitely like what I see. I'll post my constructive thoughts here and on your Discord. Very excited for your project and want it to be the best it can be.
That's must kind of you sir.
I sent you a PM here :)
Peace, love, geek!
On the subject of DC Heroes I've been running it without the standard tables for 10 years and not broken it. Plays much faster than looking stuff up, counting column shifts etc and each AP becomes it's own column, effectively, instead of grouping them together. Another project I'm on is adding colour to a mashup of 2e/3e/BoH. I got a few chapters in then decided to break off (MS Word isn't the greatest thing for DTP, who knew? I now use Word, Publisher and Paintshop Pro for the art and so far so good, so I'll use what I have learned on the Marvel Supers Revamp on all projects going forward).
In the UK rules sometimes come up for cheap but it's one of those games that didn't sell in huge numbers as far as I can tell, at least not compared to Marvel. I don't think 3rd edition was round for long and it's clear they had a tiny/almost non existent art budget.
BoH is famous for it's awful art but the rules are solid. Stripping the art and rewriting the rules/powers section (by far the largest part of the book) into it's own thing might be doable. Art is the sticking point though anything which is 99% or so compatible with existing stuff has a shot of being picked up for nostalgia purposes.
Some basic thoughts on a few things. Ignoring typos etc.
Combat
Action Economy needs clarification. Specifically "Reaction" needs to be better defined mechanically/narratively.
Action Economy - Every PC gets to Move and take an Action..
Actions include Feats/Attack/Reaction
Certain Defensive Maneuvers are Actions/Reactions
With the Powers as Defenseclause in the Defensive Maneuvers, this should remove Reaction as part of the Action Economy entirely because everything Reaction is defined by is already covered. I think this is cleaner and less confusing.
Grapple - Fighting vs. Fighting. As written, Strong characters are overwhelmingly better than skilled Fighters that actually know how to fight.
Pulling Your Punch - Does this imply that you can't do less than -3CS damage? Or are we supposed to declare how much damage we're attacking with before we attack?
Action Economy Questions Not Included
Non-Attack Actions? - In MSH you could do up to 3 non-attack actions as an Action. There is no mention of it in the 2.2 rules.
Sneak Attack - Since we're using relative Feat actions, why not have a Sneak Attack for Stealthy characters? Agility vs. Intuition/Super senses. If you succeed you get a bonus to the next higher color-shift, or +2CS to Attack Feats or whatever. There are multiple mentions of Surprise, but no mechanical definition for it. MSH did short shrift to this idea, and this is an excellent opportunity to codify it. Especially for sneaky-ass characters.
Drives
Conceptually works great as a PC focused Karma addition for players. Description needs a rework.
Edit: I'm talking with Bear offline about these things and on Discord, lots of feedback from him, he's got this well in hand. I'll continue here as I post there (for those that don't do Discord.)
Quote from: APN on March 12, 2024, 10:17:01 AM
On the subject of DC Heroes I've been running it without the standard tables for 10 years and not broken it. Plays much faster than looking stuff up, counting column shifts etc and each AP becomes it's own column, effectively, instead of grouping them together. Another project I'm on is adding colour to a mashup of 2e/3e/BoH. I got a few chapters in then decided to break off (MS Word isn't the greatest thing for DTP, who knew? I now use Word, Publisher and Paintshop Pro for the art and so far so good, so I'll use what I have learned on the Marvel Supers Revamp on all projects going forward).
In the UK rules sometimes come up for cheap but it's one of those games that didn't sell in huge numbers as far as I can tell, at least not compared to Marvel. I don't think 3rd edition was round for long and it's clear they had a tiny/almost non existent art budget.
BoH is famous for it's awful art but the rules are solid. Stripping the art and rewriting the rules/powers section (by far the largest part of the book) into it's own thing might be doable. Art is the sticking point though anything which is 99% or so compatible with existing stuff has a shot of being picked up for nostalgia purposes.
Totally deserves its own thread. Preach the word and build it man!
Since I'm already in my pajamas I'm curious as to what exactly the magnitude of difference between ranks is. In MEGS each step is double the previous, which leads to some odd situations due to its lack of precision. In TORG each step is 1.5 times the previous, which is a bit more precise but still can make certain things simply impossible by default. So what's the sitch with #Heroic?
It follows closely to MSH.
Each rank isn't *technically* a doubling, but it's close. MSH (and Heroic) hits the trope "sweet spots" that are commonly observed in comic lore. Obviously canon needs to be curated, MSH hits the best era (imo) of Marvel during the Jim Shooter era, when there was rigor in terms of enforcing what precisely a character could do power-wise.
Hence the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe came out during this period and MSH pretty much emulates it.
The *big* difference is that outside of Strength which is attached to a discrete number, all the other stats are narrative assumptions.
So TY(6) Strength lets you lift 200lbs. GD(10) lets you lift 400lbs. EX(20) Human Maximum is 800lbs. Then it jumps to RM(30) which is 1-ton. Then IN(40) 10-tons, then AM(50) 50-tons, etc.
Are their characters that fall between these scales? Yeah sure, but the idea is that while not a straight doubling, the assumption of the abstraction is that each rank is sufficiently greater that the numerical representation between each rank covers that ground mechanically, if not narratively.
i.e. If in your mind a character that could lift 30-tons is represented by IN(40) rather than AM(50), maybe he's got a Strength rating of IN(44), vs. AM(46) which is the minimum number to be in the AM column. Or you know, you can just say - this guy has AM(50) Strength and move on.
There has been tons of discussions over the years talking about adding other rank values (specifically because of Strength), but from my view it has never been necessary.
Streaming tonight talking about HEROIC Mechanics.
I'll be a guest if anyone is interested.
https://youtube.com/live/whzme7xsX8E
I saw some of that podcast. I was surprised to see Tenbones was a guest.
It makes sense based on how much you played the old MSH game. You can talk from experience, unlike me. Unless we switch to Palladium Books RPGs. Those I know.
Palladium Heroes Unlimited is a good super hero game, and the only hero game we played as a group. I just wish it wasn't as time consuming to build a hero character. My last one was a robot pilot with a transforming motorcycle (think Mospeada Cyclone). It took twice as long to make because the robot machine was as detailed as the pilot.
That's one of the reasons I'm a backer for Heroic. I want to get into a game that is easier to play. That game, or Tiny D6 Supers also looks good.
It looks interesting from the kickstarter page. I haven't seen the rules yet so I may have missed if it talks about this. Does it fix MSH/FASERIP's Daredevil problem described by Ray Winninger? As it stands, Daredevil can't perform as he does in the comics in a fight with five thugs. It's going to take him at least two rounds per thug even if they have all typical stats. Meanwhile he's likely going to take damage over the 10+ potentially rounds rather than it barely making him sweat as he blows through them to get to Kingpin.
Street level was one thing that MEGS did better for us, despite the knock thrown at it of 'characters all look the same'.
How does Heroic handle fights like that?
*edit* Looks like there are Minion and Goon pools for this sort of thing.
I've been taking a run at a MEGS retro clone for a year now. My sticking point so far is looking at the BoH book, it has everything and then some. A super 3e if you would. Then I hold up my copy of the Batman RPG and I love that it is a slim volume. Now how do I get BoH to fit in a tight package like the Batman game? This is the thought-experiment world I live in these days. I tinker, contemplate, but as of late lightning has yet to boil my brain with a Eureka moment. I've even stopped smoking pot so I can try and get serious about this!
Quote from: Tristan on March 19, 2024, 12:51:40 AM
It looks interesting from the kickstarter page. I haven't seen the rules yet so I may have missed if it talks about this. Does it fix MSH/FASERIP's Daredevil problem described by Ray Winninger? As it stands, Daredevil can't perform as he does in the comics in a fight with five thugs. It's going to take him at least two rounds per thug even if they have all typical stats. Meanwhile he's likely going to take damage over the 10+ potentially rounds rather than it barely making him sweat as he blows through them to get to Kingpin.
Street level was one thing that MEGS did better for us, despite the knock thrown at it of 'characters all look the same'.
How does Heroic handle fights like that?
*edit* Looks like there are Minion and Goon pools for this sort of thing.
Short Answer: yes it absolutely addresses this "issue".
Longer, More Thoughtful, Answer:
Ray Winninger is very much *wrong* about this being an issue. In MSH a round is effectively a "snapshot" of a flow of combat, ironically representing a single panel in a comic. It's not supposed to represent a 1-minute Round or anything. DD could effectively knock out 2-people per round with good rolls. With a stunt, like richocheting his billy-club across the heads of everyone in the scene as an "area attack" - which we've all seen many times in the comics - he could do it in one round with a Stun result.
The *real issue* is the Aunt May rule. That those thugs could reliably hit DD with decent rolls every round. I.E. if your conception of DD is an inexperienced to moderate experienced version of his career, this idea that 5-thugs are going to lay a finger on him is definitely probable. He might take a few shots. But if he's the Devil of Hell's Kitchen as we all know him, they probably will never lay a finger on him. Original MSH did a crappy job of reflecting that *in conjunction* with keeping the fight short. It's possible - with lots of Evades and sub-optimal rolls from the thugs.
Heroic *completely* fixes that by making combat relative. How? The universal table is no longer a one-way sliding scale. Now you compare Fighting skills and the difference is tracked up/down based on the relative differences between the combatants. In the original MSH a thug would need a 51 or higher to hit DD normally assuming he has TY(6) Fighting. This is because MSH did nothing to take into account DD's actual fighting ability (which in their defense was normal for game design of this era - D&D *still* does this). In Heroic - you compare the differences in Fighting and that moves your attack column up/down the scale as a modifier. This is similar to MEGS. So by comparison - in Heroic a Thug would have to roll 70 or higher to just get a glancing blow (Green Result) which is -1CS in damage. This is *before* DD did any kind of defensive move as a Reaction. So let's pretend DD decide to Dodge also and gets a basic Green result. Now those thugs need to roll 80+ for a glancing blow, and 99 for a normal solid hit.
Consider also we haven't even entered in combat Talents etc. DD is going to justifiably wipe the floor with 5-thugs and do it pretty much how you'd imagine it in a comic.
*That* is exactly why Heroic shines. I have been using this as a House Rule in my own campaigns for a few years, so when I saw Heroic cooked this into their ruleset, I knew it was a real winner. The Uni-Chart he made makes it really good and easy to reference.
On top of that - yes, you have Goon rules. I never needed them before, but now we have some. Icing? Meet cake.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on March 16, 2024, 11:26:28 PM
I saw some of that podcast. I was surprised to see Tenbones was a guest.
It makes sense based on how much you played the old MSH game. You can talk from experience, unlike me. Unless we switch to Palladium Books RPGs. Those I know.
Palladium Heroes Unlimited is a good super hero game, and the only hero game we played as a group. I just wish it wasn't as time consuming to build a hero character. My last one was a robot pilot with a transforming motorcycle (think Mospeada Cyclone). It took twice as long to make because the robot machine was as detailed as the pilot.
That's one of the reasons I'm a backer for Heroic. I want to get into a game that is easier to play. That game, or Tiny D6 Supers also looks good.
Yeah Bear reached out to me to consult on the rules (which I'm now doing) and I'm very pleased to be part of the project in my own small way. I've long held that MSH is one of the greatest systems ever made. It's *waaaay* ahead of its time on several levels. Heroic is very much that rare attempt at an update that *actually* is backwards compatible with its predecessors (Basic too!) and requires nearly zero effort to adapt for even inexperienced GM's.
This is less to do with Bear (or my own) insight as it has to do with Jeff Grub and Steve Winter's genius design. The "cleanup" in Heroic is just a couple of fundamental tweaks of the chart that Bear (and myself, independently) realized from years of play, and literally everything else in the game falls right into place without changing anything. You can pick up *any* of the MSH content out there and run it with Heroic.
I *want* Heroic to not just succeed, I want it to conquer. The system can work with *any* genre, not just Supers. That's the secret. You can literally slap any genre on into Heroic, because of the Relative task resolution mechanic, and play. It scales from street-level normie play, all the way up to Cosmic planet-shaking monstrosities that can eat Hydrogen bombs, ON THE SAME TABLE.
I've always said that Supers *is* the hardest genre to GM for - because Supers contains all other genres. ALL OF THEM. And any genre outlier you want to throw in there, Supers can gobble down. Well Heroic as a system can handle all of it with tremendous fidelity.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on March 07, 2024, 01:30:59 AM
Quote from: Domina on March 06, 2024, 11:44:58 PM
So did this guy have a bet with his buddy to see who could design the least elegant resolution mechanic or something?
Quite the opposite.
The people who swear by the FASERIP system have always bragged that the one chart on the back cover of the rulebook was the entire game. It is used for all conflict resolutions. You don't need lots and lots of specialized rules for interrogation, land navigation, gambling, crafting, etc. that many games have. You just need the chart.
As we mentioned above, it wasn't perfect. Direct, head-to-head conflicts didn't compare the skill of the two involved. If I'm feeble at shooting a gun, taking a shot at Spider-Man is the same odds as shooting at a Galapagos tortoise, at least in old FASERIP. Bear's new game, Heroic doesn't have that flaw.
Like I said, FASERIP style rules are popular for having a single mechanic that covers it all, and actually works well.
It's why I chose a music battle. It works just as well as if I said they were punching each other or competing in a golf tournament.
Yeah, and the chart is embarrassingly inelegant.
Quote from: tenbones on March 22, 2024, 10:50:35 AM
Quote from: weirdguy564 on March 16, 2024, 11:26:28 PM
I saw some of that podcast. I was surprised to see Tenbones was a guest.
It makes sense based on how much you played the old MSH game. You can talk from experience, unlike me. Unless we switch to Palladium Books RPGs. Those I know.
Palladium Heroes Unlimited is a good super hero game, and the only hero game we played as a group. I just wish it wasn't as time consuming to build a hero character. My last one was a robot pilot with a transforming motorcycle (think Mospeada Cyclone). It took twice as long to make because the robot machine was as detailed as the pilot.
That's one of the reasons I'm a backer for Heroic. I want to get into a game that is easier to play. That game, or Tiny D6 Supers also looks good.
Yeah Bear reached out to me to consult on the rules (which I'm now doing) and I'm very pleased to be part of the project in my own small way. I've long held that MSH is one of the greatest systems ever made. It's *waaaay* ahead of its time on several levels. Heroic is very much that rare attempt at an update that *actually* is backwards compatible with its predecessors (Basic too!) and requires nearly zero effort to adapt for even inexperienced GM's.
This is less to do with Bear (or my own) insight as it has to do with Jeff Grub and Steve Winter's genius design. The "cleanup" in Heroic is just a couple of fundamental tweaks of the chart that Bear (and myself, independently) realized from years of play, and literally everything else in the game falls right into place without changing anything. You can pick up *any* of the MSH content out there and run it with Heroic.
I *want* Heroic to not just succeed, I want it to conquer. The system can work with *any* genre, not just Supers. That's the secret. You can literally slap any genre on into Heroic, because of the Relative task resolution mechanic, and play. It scales from street-level normie play, all the way up to Cosmic planet-shaking monstrosities that can eat Hydrogen bombs, ON THE SAME TABLE.
I've always said that Supers *is* the hardest genre to GM for - because Supers contains all other genres. ALL OF THEM. And any genre outlier you want to throw in there, Supers can gobble down. Well Heroic as a system can handle all of it with tremendous fidelity.
Prowlers and paragons can already do that, and it's already been released.
Quote from: Domina on March 25, 2024, 12:13:01 AM
Prowlers and paragons can already do that, and it's already been released.
In your opinion, what makes Prowlers and Paragons better than Mutants & Masterminds or Champions/Hero system?
I've seen PP being compared to those two as a less crunchy version of M&M or Champions/Hero so, that's why I ask.
Quote from: tenbones on March 22, 2024, 10:38:45 AM
Short Answer: yes it absolutely addresses this "issue".
Longer, More Thoughtful, Answer:
Ray Winninger is very much *wrong* about this being an issue. In MSH a round is effectively a "snapshot" of a flow of combat, ironically representing a single panel in a comic. It's not supposed to represent a 1-minute Round or anything. DD could effectively knock out 2-people per round with good rolls. With a stunt, like richocheting his billy-club across the heads of everyone in the scene as an "area attack" - which we've all seen many times in the comics - he could do it in one round with a Stun result.
The *real issue* is the Aunt May rule. That those thugs could reliably hit DD with decent rolls every round. I.E. if your conception of DD is an inexperienced to moderate experienced version of his career, this idea that 5-thugs are going to lay a finger on him is definitely probable. He might take a few shots. But if he's the Devil of Hell's Kitchen as we all know him, they probably will never lay a finger on him. Original MSH did a crappy job of reflecting that *in conjunction* with keeping the fight short. It's possible - with lots of Evades and sub-optimal rolls from the thugs.
Heroic *completely* fixes that by making combat relative. How? The universal table is no longer a one-way sliding scale. Now you compare Fighting skills and the difference is tracked up/down based on the relative differences between the combatants. In the original MSH a thug would need a 51 or higher to hit DD normally assuming he has TY(6) Fighting. This is because MSH did nothing to take into account DD's actual fighting ability (which in their defense was normal for game design of this era - D&D *still* does this). In Heroic - you compare the differences in Fighting and that moves your attack column up/down the scale as a modifier. This is similar to MEGS. So by comparison - in Heroic a Thug would have to roll 70 or higher to just get a glancing blow (Green Result) which is -1CS in damage. This is *before* DD did any kind of defensive move as a Reaction. So let's pretend DD decide to Dodge also and gets a basic Green result. Now those thugs need to roll 80+ for a glancing blow, and 99 for a normal solid hit.
Consider also we haven't even entered in combat Talents etc. DD is going to justifiably wipe the floor with 5-thugs and do it pretty much how you'd imagine it in a comic.
*That* is exactly why Heroic shines. I have been using this as a House Rule in my own campaigns for a few years, so when I saw Heroic cooked this into their ruleset, I knew it was a real winner. The Uni-Chart he made makes it really good and easy to reference.
On top of that - yes, you have Goon rules. I never needed them before, but now we have some. Icing? Meet cake.
I will respectfully disagree as we did find it an issue and we moved on to MEGS for street level hero genres as a result of it being an issue for us. In MEGS a guy like DD could pretty normally take 3-4 thugs in a single round, possibly up to 8 with a good roll.
For DD to do his ricochet stunt, that's 100 karma per attempt (at least three times). He's got 91. If he saves a kitten from a tree and pulls a kid out of the road he'll have enough karma to try that stunt with a red feat, and have no karma for the big bad at the end. Power stunts were too expensive and the Karma examples in published modules too little.
Don't get me wrong, we played the hell out of MSH for a long time and loved it. It's still for me the easiest super's game out there, but it had its flaws.
The "Aunt May" issue certainly exacerbates the issue by making the thugs do way more damage than they should, leaving DD more bloodied than he should be. I'd say the issues go hand in hand. The comparing attacks and moving along a chart reminds me of how Ascendant handles combat in a way.
After looking a the goon rules and some of the other changes, my interest is piqued.
Quote from: Tristan on March 25, 2024, 11:24:44 PM
I will respectfully disagree as we did find it an issue and we moved on to MEGS for street level hero genres as a result of it being an issue for us. In MEGS a guy like DD could pretty normally take 3-4 thugs in a single round, possibly up to 8 with a good roll.
Sweet. MEGS is a great system. Heroic doesn't have that problem. Either way - if you're demanding that DD be handle to knock out <X>Thugs per round for it to be playable, I suspect there are other "issues" at play here. But if you found a solution in MEGS, there you go. As for Heroic, it won't have that problem either.
Quote from: Tristan on March 25, 2024, 11:24:44 PM
For DD to do his ricochet stunt, that's 100 karma per attempt (at least three times). He's got 91. If he saves a kitten from a tree and pulls a kid out of the road he'll have enough karma to try that stunt with a red feat, and have no karma for the big bad at the end. Power stunts were too expensive and the Karma examples in published modules too little.
1) Daredevil is an NPC. If you're playing him as a PC, then you are free as the GM to decide whatever stunts that PC needs to do whatever you need to do. The whole point of MSH (and Heroic) is to let the PC's have what is needed to exemplify that character. 2) In your example you're not actually discussing *which* Daredevil you're talking about. Are you talking about Daredevil when he first started? Are you talking about Daredevil from Frank Miller's era? Are you talking Ninja-God Modern DD? The solution is the same - give him what he needs to be the DD you imagine. We've *all* seen DD do that move. He probably has that stunt and slew of others. If you're hanging on this as an argument, you're splitting the hair mighty fine. If you think Stunts are "too difficult" to attain - I'll happily disagree as I run sandbox MSH for decades now, and any PC worth his salt typically has enough Karma earned through hard play to pop a stunt off and do their due diligence on mastering it (often through the simple use of saying "During my downtime I master this stunt.")
Quote from: Tristan on March 25, 2024, 11:24:44 PM
Don't get me wrong, we played the hell out of MSH for a long time and loved it. It's still for me the easiest super's game out there, but it had its flaws.
The "Aunt May" issue certainly exacerbates the issue by making the thugs do way more damage than they should, leaving DD more bloodied than he should be. I'd say the issues go hand in hand. The comparing attacks and moving along a chart reminds me of how Ascendant handles combat in a way.
After looking a the goon rules and some of the other changes, my interest is piqued.
Again, depends on which DD we're talking about. Year One DD? Sure. But I don't gauge my systems by how "fast" or "many" goons any hero can take out in a round. In fact, I can't think of where I ever even considered it outside of your question. I don't think Heroic needs "goon rules" but hey, they're there for people to enjoy them and that's the real point.
Let us know what you think if you choose to get them!
Quote from: Domina on March 25, 2024, 12:13:01 AM
Prowlers and paragons can already do that, and it's already been released.
But it's not compatible with the insane volume of MSH content out there. The whole point of Heroic is to be a cleanup of the original rules while being backwards compatible not just the MSH rules, but with the massive body of content out there, that requires zero effort to re-tool.
I like P&P - but frankly, it is slightly chunkier as a dicepool system, it works fine. I find MSH is just easier, scales a lot better (not so much that it matters) but /shrug. I feel the same way about Savage Worlds Supers - and everyone here knows I'm a massive Savage Worlds guy, but I'd never use it over MSH for running Supers.
Speaking of #Daredevil (https://youtu.be/xGY02oP5GNU).
Quote from: Tristan on March 25, 2024, 11:24:44 PM
For DD to do his ricochet stunt, that's 100 karma per attempt (at least three times). He's got 91.
Those numbers are unnecessarily big IMHO.
Quote from: Tristan on March 25, 2024, 11:24:44 PM
If he saves a kitten from a tree and pulls a kid out of the road he'll have enough karma to try that stunt with a red feat, and have no karma for the big bad at the end. Power stunts were too expensive and the Karma examples in published modules too little.
I thought people here typically frowned upon incongruous narrative currency.
Quote from: tenbones on March 26, 2024, 12:53:00 AM
But it's not compatible with the insane volume of MSH content out there. The whole point of Heroic is to be a cleanup of the original rules while being backwards compatible not just the MSH rules, but with the massive body of content out there, that requires zero effort to re-tool.
But doesn't it add a completely new attribute?
Compatibility is a reasonable goal, but I feel nostalgia is steering the ship.
You can also hit-everyone in the area with a -4CS attack - the GM can adjudicate it as necessary.
But hey... there's lots of ways to split the hair on trying to emulate comics. The larger point being the MSH and Heroic rules do all of that with ease.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 26, 2024, 08:05:54 AM
But doesn't it add a completely new attribute?
It repurposes the Popularity Stat into a "new stat" - which has the exact same basic function. But wait! There's more! This new stat now gives you Social checks for Reaction - which a lot of people love in their other RPG's that MSH kinda left on the floor. So the *stat* is right there for you to eyeball from older material. Just use the Popularity number. Or fudge it as you see fit based on the new stat (called Dynamic) as defined. It's trivial.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 26, 2024, 08:05:54 AM
Compatibility is a reasonable goal, but I feel nostalgia is steering the ship.
1) Nostalgia is not a bad thing. 2) It's not steering a ship that is a high-speed/low-drag cruiser that steers itself. It just has some upgrades to its navigation system. No one is being told *what* kind of Supers game to run. They're being given a ruleset that has stood the test of time - much like people claim about the OSR products based on Basic and 1e/2e. It's there to be used and for people to realize that you don't need a slide-rule and a calculator to play like Champions, and it can give you the exact experience you're looking for if you have any kind of GMing skills - or if you're a novice.
I'll do that claim even better - these rules can run most other genres of RPG play *better* than their traditional systems.
Quote from: tenbones on March 26, 2024, 03:11:09 PM
It repurposes the Popularity Stat into a "new stat" - which has the exact same basic function. But wait! There's more! This new stat now gives you Social checks for Reaction - which a lot of people love in their other RPG's that MSH kinda left on the floor. So the *stat* is right there for you to eyeball from older material. Just use the Popularity number. Or fudge it as you see fit based on the new stat (called Dynamic) as defined. It's trivial.
Is Dynamic = CHA?
Pretty much. Your Dynamic FEATS are modified by your Renown (which is your Popularity). Effectively Popularity's function has been split in two - now it's a Modifier to your Dynamic stat FEATS.
This makes a big distinction between some jackass wearing a Captain America costume and telling people something. And Steve Rogers doing it.
Works the same for your homegrown PC/NPC.
Quote from: tenbones on March 26, 2024, 05:10:14 PM
Pretty much. Your Dynamic FEATS are modified by your Renown (which is your Popularity). Effectively Popularity's function has been split in two - now it's a Modifier to your Dynamic stat FEATS.
This makes a big distinction between some jackass wearing a Captain America costume and telling people something. And Steve Rogers doing it.
Works the same for your homegrown PC/NPC.
Awesome!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFMY99NXOgc
Quote from: tenbones on March 26, 2024, 03:11:09 PMIt repurposes the Popularity Stat into a "new stat" - which has the exact same basic function. But wait! There's more! This new stat now gives you Social checks for Reaction - which a lot of people love in their other RPG's that MSH kinda left on the floor. So the *stat* is right there for you to eyeball from older material. Just use the Popularity number. Or fudge it as you see fit based on the new stat (called Dynamic) as defined. It's trivial.
Yeah I'll go with fudge it, because that's a terrible way to gauge who's good at interactions. That means Gambit is crap at smooth talking while not dressed as an X-Man, and Steve Rogers is slaying.
Quote from: tenbones on March 26, 2024, 12:39:42 AM
Quote from: Tristan on March 25, 2024, 11:24:44 PM
I will respectfully disagree as we did find it an issue and we moved on to MEGS for street level hero genres as a result of it being an issue for us. In MEGS a guy like DD could pretty normally take 3-4 thugs in a single round, possibly up to 8 with a good roll.
Sweet. MEGS is a great system. Heroic doesn't have that problem. Either way - if you're demanding that DD be handle to knock out <X>Thugs per round for it to be playable, I suspect there are other "issues" at play here. But if you found a solution in MEGS, there you go. As for Heroic, it won't have that problem either.
Quote from: Tristan on March 25, 2024, 11:24:44 PM
For DD to do his ricochet stunt, that's 100 karma per attempt (at least three times). He's got 91. If he saves a kitten from a tree and pulls a kid out of the road he'll have enough karma to try that stunt with a red feat, and have no karma for the big bad at the end. Power stunts were too expensive and the Karma examples in published modules too little.
1) Daredevil is an NPC. If you're playing him as a PC, then you are free as the GM to decide whatever stunts that PC needs to do whatever you need to do. The whole point of MSH (and Heroic) is to let the PC's have what is needed to exemplify that character. 2) In your example you're not actually discussing *which* Daredevil you're talking about. Are you talking about Daredevil when he first started? Are you talking about Daredevil from Frank Miller's era? Are you talking Ninja-God Modern DD? The solution is the same - give him what he needs to be the DD you imagine. We've *all* seen DD do that move. He probably has that stunt and slew of others. If you're hanging on this as an argument, you're splitting the hair mighty fine. If you think Stunts are "too difficult" to attain - I'll happily disagree as I run sandbox MSH for decades now, and any PC worth his salt typically has enough Karma earned through hard play to pop a stunt off and do their due diligence on mastering it (often through the simple use of saying "During my downtime I master this stunt.")
Quote from: Tristan on March 25, 2024, 11:24:44 PM
Don't get me wrong, we played the hell out of MSH for a long time and loved it. It's still for me the easiest super's game out there, but it had its flaws.
The "Aunt May" issue certainly exacerbates the issue by making the thugs do way more damage than they should, leaving DD more bloodied than he should be. I'd say the issues go hand in hand. The comparing attacks and moving along a chart reminds me of how Ascendant handles combat in a way.
After looking a the goon rules and some of the other changes, my interest is piqued.
Again, depends on which DD we're talking about. Year One DD? Sure. But I don't gauge my systems by how "fast" or "many" goons any hero can take out in a round. In fact, I can't think of where I ever even considered it outside of your question. I don't think Heroic needs "goon rules" but hey, they're there for people to enjoy them and that's the real point.
Let us know what you think if you choose to get them!
FWIW, "daredevil" in this case is an example of a high level street hero that's recognizable rather than <insert old PC character that's probably a Snake Eyes ripoff here>.
Regarding the numbers, just using examples again. There's no hard and fast thing here other than "In the comics DD easily beats the 5 thugs guarding the door to get into he building and makes short work of all the kingpin's goons before confronting fisk" Is that 4/6/8 per round? that's not important to me here other than he can take them down in a single round for 'genre emulation' or whatever fancy word you'd like to use here. There's a specific chart in MEGS that lets you know how many people you can take out in a multi-attack and how it affects your opponent's OV/RV. The better your AV, the more people you can hit.
The "hit everyone in the area at -4CS" thing was under powers, so we didn't think it worked for just regular slugfest. I guess there's no real reason on why you couldn't apply it to attacks, but then the 'make a FEAT roll to get multiple attacks' thing makes less sense. I'm sure we could go round and round on this, so I'll try to keep it to Heroic. ;)
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 26, 2024, 08:05:54 AM
Speaking of #Daredevil (https://youtu.be/xGY02oP5GNU).
Quote from: Tristan on March 25, 2024, 11:24:44 PM
For DD to do his ricochet stunt, that's 100 karma per attempt (at least three times). He's got 91.
Those numbers are unnecessarily big IMHO.
Quote from: Tristan on March 25, 2024, 11:24:44 PM
If he saves a kitten from a tree and pulls a kid out of the road he'll have enough karma to try that stunt with a red feat, and have no karma for the big bad at the end. Power stunts were too expensive and the Karma examples in published modules too little.
I thought people here typically frowned upon incongruous narrative currency.
Quote from: tenbones on March 26, 2024, 12:53:00 AM
But it's not compatible with the insane volume of MSH content out there. The whole point of Heroic is to be a cleanup of the original rules while being backwards compatible not just the MSH rules, but with the massive body of content out there, that requires zero effort to re-tool.
But doesn't it add a completely new attribute?
Compatibility is a reasonable goal, but I feel nostalgia is steering the ship.
Oh the cost for power stunts was WAY too high. That was something we house ruled very early.
Regarding 'narrative currency' that strongly depends on the genre to me. It's a given in a super heroic world to me. "Fantasy Fucking Vietnam"? not so much.
Quote from: Tristan on March 26, 2024, 07:13:43 PM
FWIW, "daredevil" in this case is an example of a high level street hero that's recognizable rather than <insert old PC character that's probably a Snake Eyes ripoff here>.
Regarding the numbers, just using examples again. There's no hard and fast thing here other than "In the comics DD easily beats the 5 thugs guarding the door to get into he building and makes short work of all the kingpin's goons before confronting fisk" Is that 4/6/8 per round? that's not important to me here other than he can take them down in a single round for 'genre emulation' or whatever fancy word you'd like to use here. There's a specific chart in MEGS that lets you know how many people you can take out in a multi-attack and how it affects your opponent's OV/RV. The better your AV, the more people you can hit.
The "hit everyone in the area at -4CS" thing was under powers, so we didn't think it worked for just regular slugfest. I guess there's no real reason on why you couldn't apply it to attacks, but then the 'make a FEAT roll to get multiple attacks' thing makes less sense. I'm sure we could go round and round on this, so I'll try to keep it to Heroic. ;)
Incorrect. This is under the Tactics section of Combat. It applies to *any* attack that is Blunt Slugfest, Escaping, and Energy and Force Powers. Punching/kicking/headbutting etc. is Blunt Slugfest. This rule has been part of MSH since Basic.
So yes, a "high level street hero" can take out an *entire* gang in one action if he really wanted to - i.e. has a good roll (and if needs be use Karma). What you seem to be disagreeing with me is "how easy it should be." Frankly, I think MSH/Heroic is perfectly fine. YMMV. It's such a non-issue to me that it's mostly irrelevant in light of the other mechanical issues with MSH which Heroic currently resolves.
The Multiple Attack issue? Not sure if it matters much? It's a taste thing. I think it tracks nicely, but there are some adjustments I'd do but it would make things a tad more granular. MSH wasn't designed to flow like D&D - it's a mechanical snapshot of a comic panel. Rarely do you see big-sluggers doing "multiple" attacks in a single panel vs. more "Street Level" heroes, where you're trying to emphasize movement and speed. But does *anyone* really believe Captain America is a better fighter than Thor? or Hercules? It works for the emulation that MSH is trying for.
This same "Hit Everyone" rule is also in Heroic.
And if you want to really push the issue (in Heroic) the PC could also do an All-Out-Attack on *everyone* in the area, for an additional -3CS (for a total) of -7CS and do an additional +2CS. So sure it's an outlier - but that's precisely what the Karma system is for. In this case our "High Level Street PC" would do IN(40) damage to everyone in the area.
Could he sustain that against 30 goons? No. But that's kinda the point, right? We're dickering around about how/when a High Level Street character can take out goons. You and I can agree/disagree all day on MSH. But in Heroic? *All* of these issues are addressed.
What more, if you're an MSH purist, you can use any/all rules from Heroic and drop them into MSH...and vice versa without missing a beat.
Or you know, just use MEGS if that's your jam.
Quote from: Grognard GM on March 26, 2024, 06:32:25 PM
Quote from: tenbones on March 26, 2024, 03:11:09 PMIt repurposes the Popularity Stat into a "new stat" - which has the exact same basic function. But wait! There's more! This new stat now gives you Social checks for Reaction - which a lot of people love in their other RPG's that MSH kinda left on the floor. So the *stat* is right there for you to eyeball from older material. Just use the Popularity number. Or fudge it as you see fit based on the new stat (called Dynamic) as defined. It's trivial.
Yeah I'll go with fudge it, because that's a terrible way to gauge who's good at interactions. That means Gambit is crap at smooth talking while not dressed as an X-Man, and Steve Rogers is slaying.
You have that reversed. Gambit's Renown would be low - he's a dirty fucking Mutant and professional thief. But Gambit's Dynamic would be high - like IN(40). He rolls on the IN(40) by default. His Renown is calculated in if whomever he's talking to, intimidating, trying to convince etc. when making that Dynamic Feat as Gambit.
This also can change Reaction (there is a Reaction table - just like in OSR games) to help move that needle.
So yes, you can have your cake, eat it, smear it all over your body, and go... ohhhhh yeah.
Or Fudge it. That works too.
Quote from: tenbones on March 14, 2024, 06:18:33 PM
Streaming tonight talking about HEROIC Mechanics.
I'll be a guest if anyone is interested.
https://youtube.com/live/whzme7xsX8E
Although I owned DC heroes and MSH back in the day, they never really clicked. largely I suppose because I never played with a group that knew how to make them sing.
But tenbones praise was enough to get me to watch the video, and I gotta say...
Mad Props to Tenbones for actually resembling his avatar. That's next-level forum street cred right there.
Also, I am intrigued by the game. My free advice would be; if he does a backerkit to pour all his money into layout and art. Now granted, how it actually plays at the table is what really matters... But a superhero RPG should have kickin' superhero art to get peoples attention to sell.
Quote from: tenbones on March 27, 2024, 05:25:56 PM
Incorrect. This is under the Tactics section of Combat. It applies to *any* attack that is Blunt Slugfest, Escaping, and Energy and Force Powers. Punching/kicking/headbutting etc. is Blunt Slugfest. This rule has been part of MSH since Basic.
So yes, a "high level street hero" can take out an *entire* gang in one action if he really wanted to - i.e. has a good roll (and if needs be use Karma). What you seem to be disagreeing with me is "how easy it should be." Frankly, I think MSH/Heroic is perfectly fine. YMMV. It's such a non-issue to me that it's mostly irrelevant in light of the other mechanical issues with MSH which Heroic currently resolves.
The Multiple Attack issue? Not sure if it matters much? It's a taste thing. I think it tracks nicely, but there are some adjustments I'd do but it would make things a tad more granular. MSH wasn't designed to flow like D&D - it's a mechanical snapshot of a comic panel. Rarely do you see big-sluggers doing "multiple" attacks in a single panel vs. more "Street Level" heroes, where you're trying to emphasize movement and speed. But does *anyone* really believe Captain America is a better fighter than Thor? or Hercules? It works for the emulation that MSH is trying for.
This same "Hit Everyone" rule is also in Heroic.
And if you want to really push the issue (in Heroic) the PC could also do an All-Out-Attack on *everyone* in the area, for an additional -3CS (for a total) of -7CS and do an additional +2CS. So sure it's an outlier - but that's precisely what the Karma system is for. In this case our "High Level Street PC" would do IN(40) damage to everyone in the area.
Could he sustain that against 30 goons? No. But that's kinda the point, right? We're dickering around about how/when a High Level Street character can take out goons. You and I can agree/disagree all day on MSH. But in Heroic? *All* of these issues are addressed.
What more, if you're an MSH purist, you can use any/all rules from Heroic and drop them into MSH...and vice versa without missing a beat.
Or you know, just use MEGS if that's your jam.
The dickering over numbers or whatever is just that, genre emulation of having the bad-ass street level guy plow through the goons to get to the 'real' fight. Sure, you can narrate it, but it's more fun to roll dice. As we've established, Heroic has that covered. :)
We haven't really played MEGS or any other Supers in forever. Just haven't found the right fit. Heroic looks like it addresses a lot of my irritations in this area. Have to read over it more for the other minor things we worked around, but I'm definitely interested in it.
Quote from: Jaeger on March 27, 2024, 06:02:02 PM
Quote from: tenbones on March 14, 2024, 06:18:33 PM
Streaming tonight talking about HEROIC Mechanics.
I'll be a guest if anyone is interested.
https://youtube.com/live/whzme7xsX8E
Although I owned DC heroes and MSH back in the day, they never really clicked. largely I suppose because I never played with a group that knew how to make them sing.
But tenbones praise was enough to get me to watch the video, and I gotta say...
Mad Props to Tenbones for actually resembling his avatar. That's next-level forum street cred right there.
Also, I am intrigued by the game. My free advice would be; if he does a backerkit to pour all his money into layout and art. Now granted, how it actually plays at the table is what really matters... But a superhero RPG should have kickin' superhero art to get peoples attention to sell.
Semi-interesting story. After I broke up with my girlfriend many years ago, she went on to become a developer on City of Heroes (not to my knowledge). In the early days of that game development, they needed assets for the game. She still had a lot of fondness for me, and she ended up putting my face in the game. Here's the kicker - I later got married and me and all my friends were playing, then I noticed that actual photographs I had taken with her were used in some of the movie posters, and in-game advertisements. That's when I looked up who the team was and how the fuck did they get these pictures - and there she was. I contacted her and had a good laugh. So yeah, that face is actually my face. Granted I was a lot less of a fatass back then. But yep. That's me.
I've had this avatar for a long time, a little homage to her (and I love City of Heroes).
As for Heroic - Bear has shared some of the art from the game. What I've seen so far is pretty good. Obviously he doesn't have the budget to hire named comic artists, but he's got some solid art. I'm in the dark of what the whole book will look like, I'm mostly consulting on rules and now GMing sections.
Quote from: Tristan on March 27, 2024, 11:11:16 PM
The dickering over numbers or whatever is just that, genre emulation of having the bad-ass street level guy plow through the goons to get to the 'real' fight. Sure, you can narrate it, but it's more fun to roll dice. As we've established, Heroic has that covered. :)
HAHAH true. Dickering about numbers in RPG's is no different than arguing about who would win in a fight between Cap and Batman (We all know it's Cap. Right? RIGHT?)
Since we're going to discuss it at this level nuance, I'm going to chalk it up to the GM making it *feel* right for his players. I don't like to just recite numbers and then lower health scores - I like telling my players when their PC hits for 30-points of damage, describing the feeling of slamming 1-ton's worth of force into the jaw of his opponent. Or better I like letting them tell me where/how they make their attack and I embellish it as needed to really make them feel just how powerful they really are.
I'm with you 100% that a gaggle of thugs *shouldn't* be a problem. I think it's a matter of which system gives you that "perfect" expression in play that sticks with you. A lot of that might be your GM.
Quote from: Tristan on March 27, 2024, 11:11:16 PMWe haven't really played MEGS or any other Supers in forever. Just haven't found the right fit. Heroic looks like it addresses a lot of my irritations in this area. Have to read over it more for the other minor things we worked around, but I'm definitely interested in it.
Do it! and let us know how it turns out.
Quote from: tenbones on March 28, 2024, 03:05:27 AM
HAHAH true. Dickering about numbers in RPG's is no different than arguing about who would win in a fight between Cap and Batman (We all know it's Cap. Right? RIGHT?)
My money's on Bats... (activate force field)
Quote from: Aglondir on March 28, 2024, 10:31:42 PM
Quote from: tenbones on March 28, 2024, 03:05:27 AM
HAHAH true. Dickering about numbers in RPG's is no different than arguing about who would win in a fight between Cap and Batman (We all know it's Cap. Right? RIGHT?)
My money's on Bats... (activate force field)
FIGHT!
I could see it either way. My general feeling is that if it's a cage match, Cap is gonna win. If Bats gets *any* environmental edge - it's dark, or he has the proverbial "Time to prepare"- then Bats has the advantage, but I'd never count Cap out.
In comics, the JLA/Avengers crossover is about the purest demonstration of both universes operating together. Kurt Busiek and (RIP) the legendary George Perez honored both universes. I can accept it.
(https://i.imgur.com/h5dp9xn.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/dNPrGr9.png)
Quote from: tenbones on March 28, 2024, 11:52:03 PM
Quote from: Aglondir on March 28, 2024, 10:31:42 PM
Quote from: tenbones on March 28, 2024, 03:05:27 AM
HAHAH true. Dickering about numbers in RPG's is no different than arguing about who would win in a fight between Cap and Batman (We all know it's Cap. Right? RIGHT?)
My money's on Bats... (activate force field)
FIGHT!
I could see it either way. My general feeling is that if it's a cage match, Cap is gonna win. If Bats gets *any* environmental edge - it's dark, or he has the proverbial "Time to prepare"- then Bats has the advantage, but I'd never count Cap out.
In comics, the JLA/Avengers crossover is about the purest demonstration of both universes operating together. Kurt Busiek and (RIP) the legendary George Perez honored both universes. I can accept it.
Yeah, I can see it going either way. Like you mentioned, if Bats can take advantage of the environment (especially darkness) he's got the edge. I think they're about evenly matched in terms of fighting skill and tactics.
But when it comes to the movie screen-- Evan's Cap fights far better than Bale's Batman. That elevator scene in Winter Soldier-- damn. "Before we get started, does anyone want to get out?"
Been looking for a new Superhero rpg and this one fits the bill for me at least.
When will it release? Will it be only through Drivethrurpg or in stores?
Quote from: tenbones on March 28, 2024, 11:52:03 PM
If Bats gets *any* environmental edge - it's dark, or he has the proverbial "Time to prepare"- then Bats has the advantage, but I'd never count Cap out.
The thing is, Batman
always has time to prepare, even when it seems impossible -- that's one of his superpowers.
Quote from: Aglondir on March 29, 2024, 01:31:54 AM
"Before we get started, does anyone want to get out?"
The GM saying this before every RPG session is an approved safety tool.
Quote from: Zalman on March 29, 2024, 06:54:09 AM
Quote from: tenbones on March 28, 2024, 11:52:03 PM
If Bats gets *any* environmental edge - it's dark, or he has the proverbial "Time to prepare"- then Bats has the advantage, but I'd never count Cap out.
The thing is, Batman always has time to prepare, even when it seems impossible -- that's one of his superpowers.
Generally true. But for the sake of the story - it literally was one team shows up in front of the other without any knowledge of each others capabilities. So the edge for me goes to Cap. I can go either way if the writer reps them both well.
The fight I take a *little* more of an exception to is Thor vs. Superman. A lot of people cite the whole "Superman has no protection against Magic" weakness. While I don't think getting hit by a magical item itself "counts" towards this, as the item itself is just an item that is made with magic vs. being actual magic, but to some this might be a distinction without a difference, I tend to believe otherwise. I might make an exception for the Lightning from Mjolnir - which *is* magical. But nevermind that. My primary argument is that Thor is simply a better fighter than Superman. Combined with Mjolnir he should be beating that ass. Even If we're going to give Superman higher strength, which I'm fine with that - he's not clocking in over Shift-X(150) for the sake of making the distinction between Shift-Y(200), he's closer to the lower rank.
But I've never considered Superman over IN(40) Fighting which is *nothing* to slouch about. Wolverine is IN(40) Fighting for gods sake. Superman has always relied on his sheer power over skill in fighting, I don't give a flying shit about retroactive Kryptonian martial arts and that shit. Thor is UN(100) fighting because he's been doing the down'n'dirty with cosmic beings for *thousands* of years. He actually has spent many lifetimes fighting against heavy hitters on his own level. Superman - definitely a good fighter, but not on Thor's level. Those extra attacks represented by that skill *would* put Superman down. It would be a very hard fight - but Thor would win.
They do throw Thor a bone in there by Thor claiming he could take Superman in a rematch... but you know... In the end it's a small thing. The comic is great. Everyone should read it.
For movie Cap vs. Bats. Evans Cap would be bouncing Bale Bats up and down the court like a basketball.
Quote from: Abraxus on March 29, 2024, 05:23:12 AM
Been looking for a new Superherovrpgcand this one fits the bill for me at least.
When will it release? Will it be only through Drivethrurpg or in stores?
The crowdfunding completes in a month or so. And he's on v.3 of the beta rules. The writing is already well under way. No idea as to when it officially drops, but Bear is crunching away at it daily.
That's all I know.
Quote from: tenbones on March 29, 2024, 11:52:43 PM
Generally true. But for the sake of the story - it literally was one team shows up in front of the other without any knowledge of each others capabilities.
Yeah, but that scenario right there is a huge nerf of Batman's abilities to begin with, because
foreknowledge is one of his biggest superpowers. So I reject the scenario. It's more like asking who would win between Thor and Superman in a fight ... on Krypton.
Quote from: Zalman on March 30, 2024, 06:55:34 AM
Quote from: tenbones on March 29, 2024, 11:52:43 PM
Generally true. But for the sake of the story - it literally was one team shows up in front of the other without any knowledge of each others capabilities.
Yeah, but that scenario right there is a huge nerf of Batman's abilities to begin with, because foreknowledge is one of his biggest superpowers. So I reject the scenario. It's more like asking who would win between Thor and Superman in a fight ... on Krypton.
But the Avengers have literally fought JLA Analogs on their home turf *dozens* of times - the Squadron Supreme, who are nowhere even close to being slouches. Granted there are small differences betweem the JLA/SS, they even make a reference to it in the fight where Hawkeye thinks he's going to take out Flash with his Boomerang-Arrow like he did to the Whizzer, but Flash takes Hawkeye out because he's got experience with Captain Boomerang. Little stuff like that is what honors both universes without fuckery.
I think the Batman/Cap situation as it played out in the books is probably the most plausible. I'm fine with it.
Thor and Supers fighting in the middle of a Metropolitian City doesn't grant Superman any particular advantage - due to the points I made in my last post. On *Krypton*??? c'mon that's a bit different.
Tenbones,
Need your take on these showdowns between very similar charcters. My winners are in parens.
Superman vs. Shazam? (Supes)
Thor vs. Wonder Woman (?)
Dr. Strange vs Dr. Fate (Fate)
Hawkeye vs. Green Arrow (?)
Daredevil vs Nightwing? (Nightwing)
Namor vs. Aquaman? (Aquaman)
Quote from: Aglondir on April 01, 2024, 03:19:11 AM
Tenbones,
Need your take on these showdowns between very similar charcters. My winners are in parens.
Superman vs. Shazam? (Supes)
Thor vs. Wonder Woman (?)
Dr. Strange vs Dr. Fate (Fate)
Hawkeye vs. Green Arrow (?)
Daredevil vs Nightwing? (Nightwing)
Namor vs. Aquaman? (Aquaman)
Superman vs. Shazam - Supes. Experience, determination, and well... he's an adult. If Billy were at full experience level (never mind the Sorcerer aspects of his character), I suspect he'd give Superman a run. But outside the magic, I still think Superman would generally always win.
Thor vs. Wonderwoman - Thor. More powerful and better combatant. I think Diana *could* give him a serious run for his money, but once it got to that level (i.e. once she *really* hurt him) he'd cut loose and she'd drop. I'm always with Stan Lee - Thor is the most powerful and will always win (my paraphrase).
Dr. Strange vs. Dr. Fate - HMMMMMMMMM. Let me qualify this: we're going to assume it's OG Kent Nelson vs. 80's/90's era Dr. Strange, mainly because Marvel and DC did some crazy stuff to both characters. I'm able to overcome my personal biases - Dr. Strange is my second favorite character in Marvel. I gotta give it to Dr. Fate. The Helm of Nabu simply conveys too much raw power. It's not to say that if Strange *knew* about Fate's abilities he couldn't win - he most certainly could - but Dr. Fate, especially the OG Kent iteration, is just a little too much more.
Hawkeye vs. Green Arrow - Hawkeye. Dude has *way* more nasty arrows than Oliver and is more ruthless. I take nothing away from Oliver, I think in terms of skill they're even-steven. But Clint is far more underhanded than Oliver and has proven it over and over in big-league fights where he's *way* outclassed. Hawkeyes arrows are far more bizarre and scale in power much higher than Green Arrows by direct comparison to their Who's Who/Marvel Handbook entries as well as their DCU/MSH write ups.
Daredevil vs Nightwing - Nightwing. I like Daredevil more, but the fact is, Nightwing is bringing a ridiculous array of gear to the table along with skills that can easily match DD. There are some scenarios, assuming Nightwing and DD doesn't know anything about one another and they meet on a rooftop, where DD *could* take him out. Such as Nightwing trying to smokebomb/blind DD to gain some advantage. In a straight up fight? I think they're even. But in a duel? Nighwing is going to take it... barely.
Namor vs. Aquaman Namor. Why? Because over the years they had to make Aquaman *more* like Namor to make him more relevant. Namor is a better combatant, he's far far far more ruthless (he's a borderline villain). Aquaman is definitely cooler these days, but Namor is a badass and is radically stronger than Aquaman. I actually don't think this is even a contest. Most of the Marvel/DC team-ups have Aquaman winning by trickery not actual ability. And in none of those cases would I even agree it would have worked (except when he fought She-Hulk, he smartly just ran from her). But beating Namor with a Free Willy whale landing on him? Lame. Namor *could* easily take that. It was a dumb writing. Comparing their stats in DCU/MSH - Namor by a mile. Aquaman back then could lift about 4-tons. Namor is clocking in at 75-tons, which is about what you need to be narcissistic enough to think you can beat the Hulk and Thor (which Namor has tried many times). Namor also swims faster in the water, and he flies and fights a LOT better.
I love these kinds of questions - and sure people will always have different opinions. Just for the record I ballpark my opinions based on the 80's and 90's era of Supers books for a VERY specific reason. Jim Shooter introduced the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe internally for his editorial staff so that writers had to *stay* within those boundaries for characters unless it was approved by Editorial (i.e. Jim Shooter himself). DC followed suit with their Who's Who. And you had a pretty solid and stable era of comics where characters contained and their stories were filled with conflict that forced writers to be disciplined as opposed to modern day idiocy where Superman is on a Kryptonian Bench-Press and lifting 6-Septillion Tons... Yes. I'm not kidding.
Writers today are retards. But the Shooter Era for Marvel made DC just as good. Both RPG's were statted from these books, and that's part of the charm. Sure things change, but by and large WE as fans have to curate what want or like in our personal canons. I mix my DC and Marvel content up in my Supers games. I curate the fuck out of it. So questions like these are fun and not very controversial for me.
Let me throw some out there:
Deathstroke vs. Captain America
Black Panther vs. Bronze Tiger (modern era)
Ikaris vs. Firestorm
Daredevil vs. Bane
Blue Beetle vs. The Beetle
Green Lantern (Hal Jordan) vs. Silver Surfer
Spiderman vs. Hawkman
Lady Shiva vs. Elektra
Steel vs. Ironman
man I could do this all day...
V.3 of the beta rules has dropped.
(https://1drv.ms/b/s!ApQXFCouZdqUrK8TYcLaOMJkh7TfNw?e=GbZhXx)
Tenbones,
Great analysis! Here's my thoughts, with the caveat that most of my comics knowledge comes from the 80's (I used to own some of those Marvel Universe issues you mentioned when I was a kid.)
QuoteSuperman vs. Shazam - Supes. Experience, determination, and well... he's an adult. If Billy were at full experience level (never mind the Sorcerer aspects of his character), I suspect he'd give Superman a run. But outside the magic, I still think Superman would generally always win.
Agree 100%.
QuoteThor vs. Wonderwoman - Thor. More powerful and better combatant. I think Diana *could* give him a serious run for his money, but once it got to that level (i.e. once she *really* hurt him) he'd cut loose and she'd drop. I'm always with Stan Lee - Thor is the most powerful and will always win (my paraphrase).
Yeah, I think Thor comes out ahead both in terms of fighting ability, strength, and toughness. Not sure what would happen if WW snared him in the lasso?
QuoteDr. Strange vs. Dr. Fate - HMMMMMMMMM. Let me qualify this: we're going to assume it's OG Kent Nelson vs. 80's/90's era Dr. Strange, mainly because Marvel and DC did some crazy stuff to both characters. I'm able to overcome my personal biases - Dr. Strange is my second favorite character in Marvel. I gotta give it to Dr. Fate. The Helm of Nabu simply conveys too much raw power. It's not to say that if Strange *knew* about Fate's abilities he couldn't win - he most certainly could - but Dr. Fate, especially the OG Kent iteration, is just a little too much more.
Fate all the way. There's a lot of weirdness from the 70's— like the Helm being able to transport him to the edge of the galaxy in an instant, which makes him faster than the Flash. And the weird "triple ultimate form" where he fuses with his wife and Nabu and is undefeatable. But even without the helm, Fate has near supes-level strength and toughness. Strange also has a drawback in that a lot of his stuff is focus-based and ritual-based, whereas Fate just wills it and it happens.
QuoteHawkeye vs. Green Arrow - Hawkeye. Dude has *way* more nasty arrows than Oliver and is more ruthless. I take nothing away from Oliver, I think in terms of skill they're even-steven. But Clint is far more underhanded than Oliver and has proven it over and over in big-league fights where he's *way* outclassed. Hawkeyes arrows are far more bizarre and scale in power much higher than Green Arrows by direct comparison to their Who's Who/Marvel Handbook entries as well as their DCU/MSH write ups.
Interesting! I don't know enough about GA, to be honest. Hawkeye always struck me as a bit of an ass, but that has nothing to do with the showdown. The TV show "Arrow" makes out Queen to be just as much of a badass as Batman, but he's also insufferably annoying. If we're doing movie/TV showdowns, Arrow might be one of the top three fighters.
QuoteDaredevil vs Nightwing - Nightwing. I like Daredevil more, but the fact is, Nightwing is bringing a ridiculous array of gear to the table along with skills that can easily match DD. There are some scenarios, assuming Nightwing and DD doesn't know anything about one another and they meet on a rooftop, where DD *could* take him out. Such as Nightwing trying to smokebomb/blind DD to gain some advantage. In a straight up fight? I think they're even. But in a duel? Nighwing is going to take it... barely.
I'm a big DD fan, and not so much a Nightwing fan, but the arsenal of gadgets alone decides the fight. I love the Death Battle series. I think this was a fair outcome. The action starts at 13:58, and it's remarkable for a fan-made production.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOYloEFEEvs
QuoteNamor vs. Aquaman Namor. Why? Because over the years they had to make Aquaman *more* like Namor to make him more relevant. Namor is a better combatant, he's far far far more ruthless (he's a borderline villain). Aquaman is definitely cooler these days, but Namor is a badass and is radically stronger than Aquaman. I actually don't think this is even a contest. Most of the Marvel/DC team-ups have Aquaman winning by trickery not actual ability. And in none of those cases would I even agree it would have worked (except when he fought She-Hulk, he smartly just ran from her). But beating Namor with a Free Willy whale landing on him? Lame. Namor *could* easily take that. It was a dumb writing. Comparing their stats in DCU/MSH - Namor by a mile. Aquaman back then could lift about 4-tons. Namor is clocking in at 75-tons, which is about what you need to be narcissistic enough to think you can beat the Hulk and Thor (which Namor has tried many times). Namor also swims faster in the water, and he flies and fights a LOT better.
I don't know either character that well, but I've read the issue with the whale drop ("Your problem is you're too noble to cheat.") Based on what you describe, that doesn't sound accurate! With a 75 STR, Namor might be inconvenienced from the whale drop, but it's not a fight-ender. I don't understand Aquaman. Harpoon arm, or no? Beard or no? Trident weapons master or no? I've seen a lot of clips with from the animated JLA show where he's going toe-to-toe with Diana and there's no clear winner. When did Aquaman become that level? And I thought I read an issue where he could mind control humans, because the "reptile centers of the human brain evolved from the sea." WTF is that about?
Re: Aquaman...
When did Aquaman change? 1994. His mini-series which redefined him by putting the guy through the wringer - he got his hand eaten off arm by piranha (they ignored his mental commands because they're dicks. Seriously). He'd already gotten his son murdered by Black Manta... like I said, the dude was put on the road of Marvel-levels of pathos. He got more ruthless. Ironically, he edged a lot closer to Namor. The writers definitely got more creative with him.
Harpoon/No-Harpoon - does add something to Aquaman, but lets be real, Namor has willingly gone up against Thor with Mjolnir. Aquaman on his best days isn't even in the ballpark of the same city, in the same state of the games in which the league that Thor is the MVP whose team bus stops to take a shit in on their way to the real stadium where his games take place.
But I do think it matters. Just not enough.
So I've read the latest beta watched a session (https://www.youtube.com/live/tMtrgDU2mNM), and I have thoughts.
[editing]
Quote from: tenbones on April 01, 2024, 12:55:32 PMLet me throw some out there:
Deathstroke vs. Captain America
man I could do this all day...
Cap never loses. Source: I am a major Cap fanboy.
Quote from: Brad on April 23, 2024, 12:43:31 PMQuote from: tenbones on April 01, 2024, 12:55:32 PMLet me throw some out there:
Deathstroke vs. Captain America
man I could do this all day...
Cap never loses. Source: I am a major Cap fanboy.
I confirm the source is valid and irrefutable.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on April 22, 2024, 10:37:59 PMSo I've read the latest beta watched a session (https://www.youtube.com/live/tMtrgDU2mNM), and I have thoughts.
[editing]
Such as?
Quote from: Brad on April 23, 2024, 12:43:31 PMQuote from: tenbones on April 01, 2024, 12:55:32 PMLet me throw some out there:
Deathstroke vs. Captain America
man I could do this all day...
Cap never loses. Source: I am a major Cap fanboy.
I'm a massive classic Deathstroke fan. And I would never dispute any of this, as I'm also a Cap fanboy.
I'm sure we all know Character X vs Y is all about popularity (probably with one notable exception: Spider-man. He gets his arse kicked every issue sometimes in the most unlikely manner. He's very much like Kick Ass in that his super power is to take a beating). With that in mind Deathstroke (a 'B' Tier character in DC - popular but not Batman, Superman, Flash, Wonder Woman etc levels, where each has had TV series/Films/merchandise forever. That said he's been a bad guy in a TV show and in cartoons so is better known than many others) is, in Game terms, stronger, faster and tougher than even the peak physical attribute human. A 'super soldier' for sure.
The MCU saw Cap get an upgrade in abilities and popularity. It's a win for CA over Deathstroke despite the latter being in the IN/40 Strength range, though it'd be dragged out over a few pages. I'd put Deathstroke as:
F IN40
A IN40
S IN40
E IN40
R GD10
I EX20
P EX20
In the old Marvel terms. I'd put Cap as the same (physically) aside from S RM30 and F AM50. He has more Karma than Deathstroke and also the Shield so Deathstroke struggles to land a blow but skills are probably very similar. Actually in game terms if Deathstroke can get the Shield away then it might come down to a coin flip.
In MEGs terms they'd be pretty much on the same columns for most things though Cap would have the 'Force Shield' power which makes him nigh invulnerable unless you can blindside him or take it away (Limitation: Requires Shield to use). The Block maneuver doesn't apply unless he 'braces' to stop something really big/bad coming at him. At least how I see it anyway, your mileage may vary. Deathstroke can 'Trick shot' to bounce a thrown or fired weapon from a surface to attack from Blindside/Flank and bypass the shield, but that makes it harder and Cap ain't exactly easy to hit.
Cap would have more Hero Points so takes a win there too, but neither fight (MSH/MEGs) is completely foregone. Rolls and tactics may mess things up.
I still think this guy would prevail.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DyCBWMsC/DCH-pg-26aa-LATEST.png)
Aside from the popularity thing he's the consummate planner. Plan for everyone, aside from Wonder Woman who he admitted he could find no weaknesses for. Same character as Cap. In his own book battles mooks and struggles against super villains sometimes. In the group books both punch far, far above their weight against Darkseid and Thanos, for example.
I could go either way on it. There has been an odd cognitive dissonance to how Slade has been written ALL while he's been slowly power-creeped to nowhere (apparently). For some reason post-Titans he was moved from being a Titan villain to being a Batman villain without actually making him *better* than Bats (except for their original meeting in Deathstroke's own book where he kicked the shit out of Bats - of course Bats learned from it and beat him right back).
But ever since then, the whole Bats/Deathstroke thing effectively is a wash in the comics. To the point where literally all of the "superhuman" aspects of Deathstroke are completely ignored in lieu of showing a good fight to no real conclusion. Both have "beaten" each other in straight up combat, both have done so using weapons/gadgets etc.
I think it's just weak writing. If Deathstroke has all the shit he's attributed to having - he would be Bats. He's more ruthless, faster, stronger, fight just as well - clearly - by the rules of Triangulation of Asswhoopery, Deathstroke has fought and beat some of the *only* people Bats has lost to: Bronze Tiger and Lady Shiva. To me this puts Slade on the same tier.
But it's hairsplitting. If you were GMing me and had Slade with IN(40) fighting show up - I'd still give him mad respect and wouldn't want to fight him.
Aaand my editing window timed out.
Anyway, after reading the beta and watching a few sessions I've decided it's not for me. It's a classic heartbreaker which prioritizes familiarity over functionality. I have no past with this so that's a bug, not a feature. And since none of my issues will be addressed it's not worth putting much energy into explaining them.
But for what it's worth:
I never want to hear fans complain about disassociative metacurrency as Karma is as narrative as it gets. I like how it's earned/lost for thematic actions, and how it must be spent to attempt a Feat in the process of learning it. I do not like how spending it must be declared before a roll, and then spent in the double digits to do double digit subtraction to determine how much must be spent to achieve a specific result.
The Whimsey Cards created dissonance between the fiction and mechanics. For example, the card 'Legend' was played on a nat 100, which resulted in everyone gaining a Karma bonus, picking up some Renown, and the adventure becoming legendary for... a hero not being stunned when they failed to phase through a door. This is a common problem with mechanics which determine fiction in situations where the results don't make sense.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on May 01, 2024, 09:35:12 PMAaand my editing window timed out.
Anyway, after reading the beta and watching a few sessions I've decided it's not for me. It's a classic heartbreaker which prioritizes familiarity over functionality. I have no past with this so that's a bug, not a feature. And since none of my issues will be addressed it's not worth putting much energy into explaining them.
But for what it's worth:
I never want to hear fans complain about disassociative metacurrency as Karma is as narrative as it gets. I like how it's earned/lost for thematic actions, and how it must be spent to attempt a Feat in the process of learning it. I do not like how spending it must be declared before a roll, and then spent in the double digits to do double digit subtraction to determine how much must be spent to achieve a specific result.
Well I've only been saying this on this forum since I arrived. I detest "narrative mechanics" - I'm that guy. But haunting me for 30+ years was the fact that MSH was one of the original games that used it, which I've been running the whole time. To me, it's *always* been the exception that proved the rule because it worked. And it serves as a cautionary warning to reactionaries that would extoll only non-narrative mechanics and in the same breath wax poetic about Old School games and even include MSH in there. It's always boggled my mind.
The reason *why* you have to declare Karma use (with a minimum of 10-points spent) is because if you don't the economy of Karma accrual will get abused and get off kilter. You want your players to have a stake in their actions ESPECIALLY when using Karma. It creates tension because if they get a bad roll, and didn't declare, they know going in if the roll is important and they blow it, they gotta eat the results because they were saving that Karma for other things.
In Heroic it is *more* important to declare (imo - this is not my design) because Karma is decoupled from Advancement. So you want that economy of draining those pools as a GM while giving justifiably to players that earn it.
Spending Karma to learn Stunts (not Feats) has *always* been part of the game. And it's cheaper and easier now than before. Again, as you mentioned, this might be due to your lack of experience with MSH to know. No harm no foul there. But it is a very good system and it works for comic-genre emulation.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on May 01, 2024, 09:35:12 PMThe Whimsey Cards created dissonance between the fiction and mechanics. For example, the card 'Legend' was played on a nat 100, which resulted in everyone gaining a Karma bonus, picking up some Renown, and the adventure becoming legendary for... a hero not being stunned when they failed to phase through a door. This is a common problem with mechanics which determine fiction in situations where the results don't make sense.
Easily dealt with: don't use them. I don't.