How do you overcome player's suspicions of situations? Veteran gamers tend to view everything with a jaundiced eye, and it can be difficult to avoid.
I try to keep a close eye on how NPCs are presented to avoid 'tells', but its rough.
Now in the next session or so, I'm going to have to try to get a group of hostile NPCs close to the PCs.
To give a thumbnail, its a War Hammer setting (not system). A cult suspects the PCs are the ones who are destroying items the cultists have been tasked to find (true). They are dispatching a group to get close to the PCs and take a look at them.
At the moment, the PCs are engaged in the Border Princes, commanding a company of militia in the midst of a war.
The cult is going to send a small group claiming to be sell-swords drawn by the PCs reputation (which is rather good in the area), and the handbills the PCs posted looking for trained warriors.
Naturally, the PCs are going to watch the NPCs like a hawk. But the NPCs need some room to maneuver.
I'm going to present the cultists like any other NPCs (pic of group leader, names, brief descriptions). Its a tad too sweet (trained combatants are at a premium, obviously), but the PCs would never let refugees get close to them.
Any suggestions?
One solution would be to have several different groups of mercenaries join the group at the same time. Give them all equal importance (as far as the paperwork you give them). I'm not sure of the dynamic of your group, or your playstyle, but you could try introducing one of the new NPCs as a romantic interest to one of your PCs.
Quote from: Xath;252263One solution would be to have several different groups of mercenaries join the group at the same time. Give them all equal importance (as far as the paperwork you give them). I'm not sure of the dynamic of your group, or your playstyle, but you could try introducing one of the new NPCs as a romantic interest to one of your PCs.
Multiple groups-not bad at all.
No luck on the romantic interest. Every PC has better resistance to social wiles than poison.
For the real mislead, you could have your high-level evil NPC group split off into smaller teams. Have each recruit some low-level (innocent) warriors to form separate groups. Or have a few of them join other merc groups and convince the groups to go help the PCs. That way, you could have these multiple groups of mercenaries join the PCs. Not any entire group is evil, so even if the PCs are keeping an eye on them, there's plenty of good help to go around.
Then, the evil NPCs can collude together, without the PCs knowing that they are allied.
Quote from: Xath;252284For the real mislead, you could have your high-level evil NPC group split off into smaller teams. Have each recruit some low-level (innocent) warriors to form separate groups. Or have a few of them join other merc groups and convince the groups to go help the PCs. That way, you could have these multiple groups of mercenaries join the PCs. Not any entire group is evil, so even if the PCs are keeping an eye on them, there's plenty of good help to go around.
Then, the evil NPCs can collude together, without the PCs knowing that they are allied.
There's not really 'high-level' in our system.
But you've an excellent point.
Quote from: OneTinSoldier;252236How do you overcome player's suspicions of situations? Veteran gamers tend to view everything with a jaundiced eye, and it can be difficult to avoid.
Any suggestions?
Avoid the metagame?
I'd also make some of the new recruits be more suspicious, but just be that kind of person.
I'd also run several other ongoing things, giving the agents a very long amount of time to "prove" themselves before they do anything.
Alternately, they could be members already IN the militia, simply by happenstance.
Have some situations now and again where the PCs trip themselves by distrust. Like, that slightly suspicious character WAS the friendly ally / informant he claimed to be, and now they're lacking an important piece of info - and later learn the truth of it all. The woman they don't let accompany them out of the forest never makes it out alive on her own, and later turns out to have been the mayor's daughter. Etc..
I personally would not bother trying to outsmart the players just so that you can spring a surprise on the characters. Apart from the fact that I am not sure I even could outsmart my players even I wanted to, it seems to me that takes the focus of the game further and further away from what it is meant to be.
It is inevitable that many experienced players, especially those who also GM, will start second guessing the GM. Once that innocence is lost it's gone and ones' style of GMing might have to adapt too.
A couple of options come to mind. The simple option is to just go ahead as planned, make the cult spies obvious and allow the party to deal them as swiftly as they please. It's not fancy, but the players will feel good about themselves for having dealt with this threat and that's all you need for a good game. And of course, the is always the chance the players do not catch on.
Alternatively, you can try something a little more radical and simply tell the players out-of-character that these guys are the spies but warn them that in-character they don't know this yet. That way you shift the emphasis from it being a contest of wits between GM and players to a contest between NPC and player characters.
A neat way for doing this is with cut-scenes. The old D6 Star Wars game used to often include in the scenarios little scenes in which none of the character were present but which you showed what the bad guys were up to so that the players could actually enjoy some of the finer details of the overall plot better. So for instance depict a scene in which the spies are being instructed by the cult leader to infiltrate the party including what the reward for the spies will be if the succeed and other details like that which normally never come to light. It's a great chance to portray the bad guys point of view.
PS:
To be honest I have not used cut-scenes before myself. I used to think the concept was inelegant and so wrong, but I am coming round to the idea now as I am experiencing the same sort of issues with experience but sometimes jaded players.
Quote from: Silverlion;252330I'd also make some of the new recruits be more suspicious, but just be that kind of person.
I'd also run several other ongoing things, giving the agents a very long amount of time to "prove" themselves before they do anything.
Alternately, they could be members already IN the militia, simply by happenstance.
There is a great deal of stuff going on.
I like the idea of the militia members, but unfortunately, the nature of the situation is that the cultists will be tracking the PCs, so that wouldn't work.
Quote from: Serious PaulAvoid the metagame?
Metagame? I'm not sure what you mean. I've heard of metaplots, but not metagame.
Quote from: PremierHave some situations now and again where the PCs trip themselves by distrust.
Hmmmm...that's bit them before; this is War Hammer, after all. ;)
Still, you give me an idea: what is the person who would know that the cultists are not on the up & up was a refugee? A variation on your 'mayor' daughter.
That could work.
Soylent Green, you raise some interesting points.
This is a sensitive issue; the encounter is likely to occur in session #31 or 32 (next week or the week after). For thirty sessions the cult and the PCs have been seeking the same goals; the cult knows that there is non-Chaos group looking, but this is the first hint they have tying the PCs to the search.
Its going to have a large impact on the campaign.
Quote from: OneTinSoldier;252349Metagame? I'm not sure what you mean. I've heard of metaplots, but not metagame.
Player knowledge versus character knowledge. Maybe the players know how you roll, and that a trap is coming but does the character him or herself know? I've seen a lot of people expect a game to go their way because they're betting on a loop hole in the rules, or a piece of knowledge they know-but their character couldn't. Personally i don't reward this sort of gaming, and my group is cool with it.
So when your Intelligence 8 Barbarian starts reciting Shakespeare, or explaining in great detail how cold fusion works don't expect me to just stand by while you rape the rules. (The you and your in this case being a hypothetical player of course.)
Quote from: Serious Paul;252378Player knowledge versus character knowledge. Maybe the players know how you roll, and that a trap is coming but does the character him or herself know? I've seen a lot of people expect a game to go their way because they're betting on a loop hole in the rules, or a piece of knowledge they know-but their character couldn't. Personally i don't reward this sort of gaming, and my group is cool with it.
So when your Intelligence 8 Barbarian starts reciting Shakespeare, or explaining in great detail how cold fusion works don't expect me to just stand by while you rape the rules. (The you and your in this case being a hypothetical player of course.)
I see. A handy term.
I don't reward player knowledge misuse, either.
However, I strive to keep the players in the dark, same as their PCs.
In this case, its essential-one of the PCs is a witch hunter (a cultist-hunter), and its going to be touch & go for the cultists as it is. Impossible if the player actively suspects.
This is a critical point in the campaign; how the players handle it will determine how long until we start the next campaign.
Thus, I want it to play out as well as possible, however it goes.
Let them catch the NPC group at some minor skullduggery as a red herring. Make it something more on the stupid end of the spectrum rather than the insidious end.
Perhaps, they're taking liberties with the daughters of the locals or something. The daughters aren't complaining but the fathers are sharpening their pitchforks. Or perhaps they're taking bribes or selling provisions on the side. Anyhow, let the PCs catch them, get a sniff of big consequences to and apply a little discipline then let the NPCs earn forgiveness.
Don't give them the big save, PCs always suspect the guys who show up suddenly and pull their fat out of the fire. Just let them prove to be reliable for a couple sessions.
This way the players think they know what the story is and that they've stopped you from setting them up.
Quote from: David Johansen;252464Let them catch the NPC group at some minor skullduggery as a red herring. Make it something more on the stupid end of the spectrum rather than the insidious end.
Perhaps, they're taking liberties with the daughters of the locals or something. The daughters aren't complaining but the fathers are sharpening their pitchforks. Or perhaps they're taking bribes or selling provisions on the side. Anyhow, let the PCs catch them, get a sniff of big consequences to and apply a little discipline then let the NPCs earn forgiveness.
Don't give them the big save, PCs always suspect the guys who show up suddenly and pull their fat out of the fire. Just let them prove to be reliable for a couple sessions.
This way the players think they know what the story is and that they've stopped you from setting them up.
:worship:
High praise indeed.
Quote from: OneTinSoldier;252399However, I strive to keep the players in the dark, same as their PCs.
Thus, I want it to play out as well as possible, however it goes.
Sometimes as a GM you have to take a step back, and look at what your NPC's (Or Opposition, or whatever we want to call them) honestly know. As much as it kills sometimes things should play as they lay, no matter how easy or hard it is. (In my book)
Quote from: Serious Paul;252566Sometimes as a GM you have to take a step back, and look at what your NPC's (Or Opposition, or whatever we want to call them) honestly know. As much as it kills sometimes things should play as they lay, no matter how easy or hard it is. (In my book)
I always play it as the dice lands, so to speak.
They've been operateing for 30 sessions with the risk that this cult will become aware of them. Now it has come to pass, and while I expect they'll survive this group, how they handle this business will determine the course of the entire remaining campaign.
For such an important occasion, I want things to run well. Having concerned themselves with this cult for so long, it would be a let-down if the first actual dealings with them were too easy.