Seriously, now that I think about it. I think my last TPK was in the 90s. A group of four 1st level PCs taking on Lost Mines of Fandomdelver (or whatever). Our party:
Tempest cleric (me), rogue, fighter, and wizard.
Taking on the goblin sentries was fairly easy, but the rogue got wounded and I used a cure wounds spell on him. Then we fought the three wolves which where also pretty easy. Wasn't long before the rush of water made the rogue lose his footing and the took damage there, then almost immediately took an arrow from the goblin on the bridge. On my turn I ran up to heal him, using my last spell.
The ability of goblins to hide after they attack? Goddamn that sucks if you're the players ;) Rather than run away (which we should have), I climbed the wall to face the goblin one on one, so it couldn't use the bridge/tunnel for cover (and I had a 19 AC, so I figured I was pretty safe). Oops. I got there, and used one of my tempest cleric powers to kill the goblin after he attacked me, but I took an arrow from the other side of the now destroyed bridge (the fighter and rogue knocked it down)
Then it became official. Party was separated. #1 reason that leads to TPKs. The fighter took off towards the west passage to see if he could link up with me. The rogue was trying to figure out how to take care of the goblin that was to our east. And I made my way down the passage to the west just north of the fighter's, hoping to link up and to get out of line of sight of the goblin to the east
Fighter ran into room with 5 goblins just as I was getting there. But I was wounded. Didn't help that we kept missing all of our attack rolls and the DM rolled two crits on me. So I went down. The wizard showed up the next round. The fighter said to burning hands the whole group, even if it got him too. She did. Two goblins and the fighter went down. Then she died just as the rogue got there. He killed one goblin with a sneak attack but the other got him.
Goblins in 5e are bad ass compared to earlier editions. That's all I got to say about that ;)
And honestly, even if we didn't split the party I don't think we would have made it. Between the hit and run tactics of the goblins and our shitty rolls, they would have taken us out anyway.
Bravo! I'm actually relieved to hear a TPK report like this. Having things unravel due to luck, environmental factors, and tactics is the way these things should go.
I'm not a fan of ubiquitous ten foot pole tapping, but I do need that sense that things can go tits up quickly.
I'm curious as to how tied to a grid you were when it all went down.
But, uh, it does suck that everyone died!
we were playing roll20, so we were pretty tied to a grid. My tabletop games I don't use a grid hardly at all.
I am more confident than ever that low level monsters will still be a giant pain in the ass at higher levels. If tactics and hit and run methods are used, a group of lowly goblins might not be able to kill a group of 5th level PCs, but I bet the party would have to use a lot more resources than they wanted to against such a lowly foe, leaving them short handed when the bigger monsters are encountered
Its surprising there was a TPK, but splitting the party + bad PC rolls + GM crits can even break the 5e kiddie coaster mechanics.
I'm sure they'll address it in the errata, or you'll become the urban legend to scare 5e players.
Quote from: Spinachcat;783980Its surprising there was a TPK, but splitting the party + bad PC rolls + GM crits can even break the 5e kiddie coaster mechanics.
I'm sure they'll address it in the errata, or you'll become the urban legend to scare 5e players.
can you expand on what you mean by kiddie coaster mechanics? 5e is the most lethal version of D&D since AD&D, especially at low levels.
A little lethality never hurt anyone. (But I'm guessing the DMG will have an option to turn it down a notch for the faint-hearted.)
Quote from: Saplatt;783985A little lethality never hurt anyone. (But I'm guessing the DMG will have an option to turn it down a notch for the faint-hearted.)
It sure does get the blood pumping!
I have eagerly read all the actual play reports I have found on 5. It seems like teams can just cruise through stuff until something goes south and BAM! wipeout. In each case, it's not the game that kills the players, nor is it the dice. It's the players that kill the players.
The game is not swingy, but it will punish poor play. I think that is a sign of a really good system to be honest.
I will fully admit I wasn't as cautious as I normally am, but I chaulk that up to roll20 taking forever and playing with a pregen I wasn't totally vested in. That being said, goblins able to come at you from multiple directions and being able to take a bonus action to hide after they attack was incredibly frustrating from an in game perspective. And as 1st level PCs, it only took 2 hits to drop us. We felt like as long as they attacked from range and used cover, they had their way with us. You'd go to where you thought they were, but they were stealthed, moved, and hit us with ranged attacks again with advantage (for being stealth), and then hid again. Rinse and repeat
Wait, what's the new stat line for Goblins? Sounds different from Legacy of the Crystal Shards. Running Basic sounds like they readjusted monsters for the PHB.
Quote from: Opaopajr;784002Wait, what's the new stat line for Goblins? Sounds different from Legacy of the Crystal Shards. Running Basic sounds like they readjusted monsters for the PHB.
Yep. HP have gone from 3 to 7, AC from 13 to 15, their attack from +1 to +4 and damage more than doubled. The last two are due to the ability to use Dex rather than Str for light melee weapons. Also, their Nimble power is awesome if you use a grid as they avoid all opportunity attacks.
Quote from: Opaopajr;784002Wait, what's the new stat line for Goblins? Sounds different from Legacy of the Crystal Shards. Running Basic sounds like they readjusted monsters for the PHB.
They are pretty horrid.
GoblinSmall humanoid (goblinoid), neutral evilArmor Class 15 (leather armor, shield)
Hit Points 7 (2d6)
Speed 30 ft.
STR 8 (−1)
DEX 14 (+2)
CON 10 (+0)
INT 10 (+0)
WIS 8 (−1)
CHA 8 (−1)
Skills Stealth +6
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 9
Languages Common, Goblin
Challenge 1/4 (50 XP)
Nimble Escape. The goblin can take the Disengage or Hide
action as a bonus action on each of its turns.
ActionsScimitar. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d6 + 2) slashing damage.
Shortbow. Ranged Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, range 80/320 ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d6 + 2) piercing damage.
Goblins are small, black-hearted humanoids that lair in despoiled dungeons and other dismal settings. Individually weak, they gather in large numbers to torment other creatures.
We just wrapped up our last session of Phandelver, my party killing Foozle. But we've had four deaths along the way and the last dungeon could well have ended in a TPK.
My impression is that 5e is certainly no less lethal than previous editions. Combats can be swingy, especially at low levels. And lower-CR monsters will cost you some HP, right up to 4th level. That said, we could have avoided most if not all deaths by playing more carefully. We didn't, so we paid a price.
As far as I'm concerned, 5e delivers a solid and fun DnD experience.
What? No penalty to sunlight like Kobolds, OK, I can deal with that. But Stealth +6, Nimble Escape, & Short Bows is just begging for TPKs. Darkvision is nice, but it is all about assaulting players at night with campfires that matters (well, scouting them out as they sleep is also nice...).
I'd naturally run them at AC 13, assuming they are running S. Bows, thus shield is off. But yeah, I'm not using these as core Goblins. First off, played at average human intelligence (INT 10), just one is a challenge. Second, it's a lot of XP (or death) per one, so a proper Goblin patrol should either level up a beginner party or kill them.
I wholly support this and shall use them in Organized Play to slaughter overconfident WotC D&D players by the thousands. :p
(My home game players may rest soundly, as I'll stick to the Shards Goblin for a while longer.)
I also had a near TPK last night playing 5e for the first time - it was only avoided because I allowed the Fighter to retrospectively use Second Wind, as he is new to RPGs and forgot to use his abilities in that fight a lot.
The biggest irony from last night? The same player who was complaining about constant mass battles in OSRIC, is now looking to get NPC help before attacking anything. FML
They're each akin to 2nd lvl Rogues with Expertise in Stealth and Darkvision 60'. That's a lot for what I usually think of as a swarm creature. Almost as dangerous now as my Elk herds.
Quote from: Rincewind1;784019The biggest irony from last night? The same player who was complaining about constant mass battles in OSRIC, is now looking to get NPC help before attacking anything. FML
Haha!
Honestly, in setting this up for my own Roll20 experiments, I would have thought the three wolves would have been the worst part of that area. They'll have advantage on attack rolls until two of them are dead, and from what the dice macro tells me, that's a pretty big deal.
Quote from: mcbobbo;784028Honestly, in setting this up for my own Roll20 experiments, I would have thought the three wolves would have been the worst part of that area. They'll have advantage on attack rolls until two of them are dead, and from what the dice macro tells me, that's a pretty big deal.
With the wolves, we could actually see them to fight them. With the goblins, one would pop up over there, strike at advantage, and then disappear. At first you'd move to go over to find him, just to have another pop up other there, strike with advantage, and then disappear again. Hit and run was deadly. The wolves stayed in melee and took the hits we gave out, allowing us to actually kill them before long. Me (AC 19) and the great weapon fighter were on the front line while the rogue and mage were casting spells from behind where the wolves couldn't get them. No such luck against goblins with bows.
It took my group two sessions to into the goblins.
The first session I nearly TPKed the party with the first encounter with the goblin ambush. A nat 20 on a death save by the wizard saved the party's bacon.
The third sessions, nearly all of the party went down except for the Rogue. In a bit a of inspired roleplaying and good rolls he managed to get the goblin to parlay when the fighter rolled a natural 20 on a death save.
Here the thread where I am placing the actual play reports.
http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=30351
Quote from: mcbobbo;784028Honestly, in setting this up for my own Roll20 experiments, I would have thought the three wolves would have been the worst part of that area. They'll have advantage on attack rolls until two of them are dead, and from what the dice macro tells me, that's a pretty big deal.
I have run two groups through Phandelver. The wolves are chained up so and are easily avoided. Their yelping and barking at the entrance of the party is likewise not an issue as the goblins ignore them.
The problem comes when something happens in the upper caverns and Klarg and his flunkies hears it. For both groups I had one of Klarg's goblins slip down the fissure and start releasing the wolves. Then yes the wolves advantage with attack rolls when fighting in groups is a big deal.
Another thing to be aware of is that the Goblin Hideoout and the Redbrand Hideout are quite small in area. It is easy to rouse half of the dungeon.
We played this adventure using C&C rules because that is what the group was prepared for, though I don't think the system mattered much. We were 1 round from a TPK in the basement of the abandoned manor in the main village. It is a pretty tough adventure! And very enjoyable.
Goblins AC 15 is for Leather armor and Shield
If they are using Bows, their AC is only 13.
This saved our butts as the ranged members of our party could take them out a lot easier.