Hello everyone,
So I used to start with Dungeons & Dragons 3rd edition, and then played Pathfinder 1st edition for a bit seeing as it was basically Dungeons & Dragons 3.75 edition. A few friends then sucked me into Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition (A simplified version of D&D 3E and Pathfinder 1E), and I started making homebrew for them and others for that system, which I shared on my Deviantart https://www.deviantart.com/nielspeterdejong and Discord https://discord.gg/mBmKcp6E3s
Now, I got back into Pathfinder 1st edition just recently due to some other friends, and I quite like how good the customization is and how much more realistic and tension filled it feels when compared to D&D 5E (not saying there is anything wrong with the latter, but former just feels like a more complete version). There were only a handfull of things that I feel could be improved, namely the "unchained" ninja, the catfolk (I made a variant for a friend), and the kitsune.
I made revisions of these, as well as a fanmade player race that my group always used to play in D&D 3rd edition, and which I translated to Pathfinder, named the minos. These are basically big friendly giants, and allows players to play as a "minotaur" that is less furry and without going overboard with their traits. Here are links to all the versions, and I hope that you guys will like them as well. They are playtested and in practice are well balanced based on feedback:
"Unchained" Ninja + Nokizaru Archetype
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1auY5Qi-SG0F_sEXiHr8mILhGvW5f3Y9l/view
(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/3ef18718-60d9-4d07-9c20-514f1a521ef3/dfgyewd-3d2debe3-ff2f-4a43-8aa4-9b196a13814f.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzNlZjE4NzE4LTYwZDktNGQwNy05YzIwLTUxNGYxYTUyMWVmM1wvZGZneWV3ZC0zZDJkZWJlMy1mZjJmLTRhNDMtOGFhNC05YjE5NmExMzgxNGYucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.JVGODx9-WxexndxWBrCWuddHbK7cu1XJzARtCyp08gI)
Catfolk, Variant
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Hxn22W0P-C-RhqpuRO31TTRZgceJuhsI/view
(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/3ef18718-60d9-4d07-9c20-514f1a521ef3/dfi9cda-47457884-8734-4380-a524-082563f40c03.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzNlZjE4NzE4LTYwZDktNGQwNy05YzIwLTUxNGYxYTUyMWVmM1wvZGZpOWNkYS00NzQ1Nzg4NC04NzM0LTQzODAtYTUyNC0wODI1NjNmNDBjMDMucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.BWKH9tCp6P-s6g_IVw750yqqHQXw7atmdpEb8lU18kg)
Kitsune, Revised
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hNls3jEfQG-6aq1QrIsRq80jcMfmUFnp/view
(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/3ef18718-60d9-4d07-9c20-514f1a521ef3/dfhbph7-8d056787-3697-43a5-8e7d-ee12d59bc0df.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzNlZjE4NzE4LTYwZDktNGQwNy05YzIwLTUxNGYxYTUyMWVmM1wvZGZoYnBoNy04ZDA1Njc4Ny0zNjk3LTQzYTUtOGU3ZC1lZTEyZDU5YmMwZGYucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.qvsjCzj6WVL7wYPU-IoJdhPBz3p0hEqGq6ZlD8oczDQ)
Minos
https://drive.google.com/file/d/15Sm3tUq2-EuogLZi8p1Hb9Yd9rNZhKgu/view
(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/3ef18718-60d9-4d07-9c20-514f1a521ef3/dfhu7dz-200aae2a-9ae0-4dcb-910c-8df04f3fecb3.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzNlZjE4NzE4LTYwZDktNGQwNy05YzIwLTUxNGYxYTUyMWVmM1wvZGZodTdkei0yMDBhYWUyYS05YWUwLTRkY2ItOTEwYy04ZGYwNGYzZmVjYjMucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.6RnQpxaTGWBzgHF-Ae2wODL1tT7qjHDQEPCNxPYsCl0)
Honest thoughts.
So... random races for no specific setting?
Clearly you put in a lot of effort which I appreciate on its own merit. Your writeups require editing. You have unspecified rules claims (Which spells can a Nokizaru actually do without Somatic components? there are others but you get my drift) and you need to remove what they *can't* do vs. strictly stating what they can do.
It's a rookie mistake for 3e writers (trust me - was there, can confirm) but your editor (if you have one) would thank you. But if you're going to go to the next step in design - which from the looks of this, you're capable of on your own, put out clean copy and/or get an editor. You have all the basic style elements down, but you just need a little punch-up in the presentation of the rules. You're doing fine otherwise.
Personal things - I get it... I'm of an age. The whole anime-influence thing to me is way overdone. You know what would have been a kickass version of the Nokizaru? The *actual* Nokizaru who worked for Uesugi Kenshin and contextualized your classes based on the actual Sengoku period which is *sorely* missing from TTRPG's. A fantasy version of the Sengoku would be infinitely more interesting than rehashing anime-versions of the actual real players. The worse part is they do no service to the culture (which I addressed in the Japanese-effect thread).
But alas... I'm of an age. So my thoughts are - good style, fix presentation of rules (minor tweaks), I'd also suggest with the incoming implosion D&D (and PF is going nowhere) you might consider translating these to Savage Worlds Pathfinder. Might be very interesting to see under those rules (probably a LOT easier to do too). 3e+ flavors of D&D mistake playing the system for the actual game. People play it out of habit and familiarity more than play it out of mechanical rigor. Which is why you don't like 5e, and those that follow the brand wherever it goes - do play 5e. Consider your designs here under different banners - even D&D - try making OSR versions - or 1e/2e, and see how they stack up? Create an adventure for them to be used in. Create a mini-campaign to whet even the most jaded player/GM to want to use these.
Because let's face it - random races for PF1 is competition for eyeballs with a LOT of other things. But put those PF knowledge to Savage Worlds Pathfinder - and I guarantee you with a mini-adventure, there are people that would *pay* you for your efforts in your anime-inspired Sengoku game. Go for it and earn some cheddar for your creations.
Quote from: tenbones on November 15, 2022, 03:14:32 PM
Honest thoughts.
So... random races for no specific setting?
Clearly you put in a lot of effort which I appreciate on its own merit. Your writeups require editing. You have unspecified rules claims (Which spells can a Nokizaru actually do without Somatic components? there are others but you get my drift) and you need to remove what they *can't* do vs. strictly stating what they can do.
It's a rookie mistake for 3e writers (trust me - was there, can confirm) but your editor (if you have one) would thank you. But if you're going to go to the next step in design - which from the looks of this, you're capable of on your own, put out clean copy and/or get an editor. You have all the basic style elements down, but you just need a little punch-up in the presentation of the rules. You're doing fine otherwise.
Personal things - I get it... I'm of an age. The whole anime-influence thing to me is way overdone. You know what would have been a kickass version of the Nokizaru? The *actual* Nokizaru who worked for Uesugi Kenshin and contextualized your classes based on the actual Sengoku period which is *sorely* missing from TTRPG's. A fantasy version of the Sengoku would be infinitely more interesting than rehashing anime-versions of the actual real players. The worse part is they do no service to the culture (which I addressed in the Japanese-effect thread).
But alas... I'm of an age. So my thoughts are - good style, fix presentation of rules (minor tweaks), I'd also suggest with the incoming implosion D&D (and PF is going nowhere) you might consider translating these to Savage Worlds Pathfinder. Might be very interesting to see under those rules (probably a LOT easier to do too). 3e+ flavors of D&D mistake playing the system for the actual game. People play it out of habit and familiarity more than play it out of mechanical rigor. Which is why you don't like 5e, and those that follow the brand wherever it goes - do play 5e. Consider your designs here under different banners - even D&D - try making OSR versions - or 1e/2e, and see how they stack up? Create an adventure for them to be used in. Create a mini-campaign to whet even the most jaded player/GM to want to use these.
Because let's face it - random races for PF1 is competition for eyeballs with a LOT of other things. But put those PF knowledge to Savage Worlds Pathfinder - and I guarantee you with a mini-adventure, there are people that would *pay* you for your efforts in your anime-inspired Sengoku game. Go for it and earn some cheddar for your creations.
Good evening,
I appreciate your feedback! Though I'm a bit confused. What I described for the somatic spell components was merely a copy of the description that the Eldritch Scoundrel has for its Armor Proficiencies feature, which is copied from Paizo themselves: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo-rogue-archetypes/eldritch-scoundrel-rogue/ The Nokizaru is an altered Eldritch Scoundrel after all. The Nokizaru in popular culture are known for their many tricks while wearing light armor, so they were a perfect candidate for a Eldritch Scoundrel candidate.
As for the Kitsune and Catfolk, they are existing races, but I merely made revisions for them. The minos themselves are a whole new race, for those who want to play a "Big Boi/Gal" kind of race. And what exactly did you mean with Savage World Pathfinder? Is that a variant on the Savage World setting?
And don't worry, I appreciate any and all feedback :)
/r/unearthedarcana is a thing for furries and catgirls.
I'm not that much of a furry, hence why I added in a non-furry option for the Kitsune here :) Jokes aside, I feel reddit is becoming a tad too "woke" these days.
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 15, 2022, 04:07:59 PM
I'm not that much of a furry, hence why I added in a non-furry option for the Kitsune here :) Jokes aside, I feel reddit is becoming a tad too "woke" these days.
They'd devour this and give you solid feedback for it regardless. That part of Reddit safely in the middle.
Well it is better than /r/DnD at the very least, that place used to be cool...
Also, what I posted here is Pathfinder 1st edition stuff, not D&D 5E. Unearthed is only for 5E stuff.
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 15, 2022, 03:40:53 PM
As for the Kitsune and Catfolk, they are existing races, but I merely made revisions for them. The minos themselves are a whole new race, for those who want to play a "Big Boi/Gal" kind of race. And what exactly did you mean with Savage World Pathfinder? Is that a variant on the Savage World setting?
Savage Worlds (SW) is an RPG system unrelated to D&D that first came out in 2003. There was a recent release of an adaptation of the SW rules to the Pathfinder setting. Here's the link:
https://peginc.com/store/pathfinder-for-savage-worlds-core-rules/
Regarding text errors, I'm not going to go through the whole, but in the first paragraph on minos it says "Many minos are weary of strangers, ..." when I think you mean to say "wary of strangers" (i.e. distrustful).
The Japanese and specifically anime influence also isn't my cup of tea, but good luck in promoting it.
I, on the other hand LOVE the Japanese AND the Manga/Anime influences, these look fine to convert to a system more of my liking than 3e, 3.5e, PF... Meaning more OSR.
You can use all of these in Pathfinder and 3E/3.5, I also added in that if you are playing a Minos you get a +1 level adjustment. The Kitsune and Catfolk are fine without level adjustment though :)
Quote from: jhkim on November 15, 2022, 04:45:58 PM
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 15, 2022, 03:40:53 PM
As for the Kitsune and Catfolk, they are existing races, but I merely made revisions for them. The minos themselves are a whole new race, for those who want to play a "Big Boi/Gal" kind of race. And what exactly did you mean with Savage World Pathfinder? Is that a variant on the Savage World setting?
Savage Worlds (SW) is an RPG system unrelated to D&D that first came out in 2003. There was a recent release of an adaptation of the SW rules to the Pathfinder setting. Here's the link:
https://peginc.com/store/pathfinder-for-savage-worlds-core-rules/
Regarding text errors, I'm not going to go through the whole, but in the first paragraph on minos it says "Many minos are weary of strangers, ..." when I think you mean to say "wary of strangers" (i.e. distrustful).
The Japanese and specifically anime influence also isn't my cup of tea, but good luck in promoting it.
Thanks for spotting that! I will change it to wary :)
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 15, 2022, 05:15:59 PM
I, on the other hand LOVE the Japanese AND the Manga/Anime influences, these look fine to convert to a system more of my liking than 3e, 3.5e, PF... Meaning more OSR.
But yeah, you should easily be able to translate these to other systems as well, as I noticed many of them have a lot of similarities.
Cool stuff, but I believe this belongs over in: Design, Development, & Gameplay (https://www.therpgsite.com/design-development-and-gameplay/)
Oh? Well I will post it there as well then. Thanks for the heads up!
Quote from: jhkim on November 15, 2022, 04:45:58 PM
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 15, 2022, 03:40:53 PM
As for the Kitsune and Catfolk, they are existing races, but I merely made revisions for them. The minos themselves are a whole new race, for those who want to play a "Big Boi/Gal" kind of race. And what exactly did you mean with Savage World Pathfinder? Is that a variant on the Savage World setting?
Savage Worlds (SW) is an RPG system unrelated to D&D that first came out in 2003. There was a recent release of an adaptation of the SW rules to the Pathfinder setting. Here's the link:
https://peginc.com/store/pathfinder-for-savage-worlds-core-rules/
Regarding text errors, I'm not going to go through the whole, but in the first paragraph on minos it says "Many minos are weary of strangers, ..." when I think you mean to say "wary of strangers" (i.e. distrustful).
The Japanese and specifically anime influence also isn't my cup of tea, but good luck in promoting it.
Btw, how popular is Savage Worlds? Do many groups play it? I honestly hadn't heard about it until now.
I see you have included Catfolk. I bet Catfolk and Bearfolk options, would capture a lot of the player base.
Quote from: Jam The MF on November 18, 2022, 05:50:30 AM
I see you have included Catfolk. I bet Catfolk and Bearfolk options, would capture a lot of the player base.
Well there aren't any official Bearolk in Pathfinder 1E, of which I have made this variant, however I did add on the last page an option to play a more "Strength based beastfolk", by using my revised Orc Atavism. I didn't like how the Pathfinder orc didn't have a standard boost to Strength, while the Orc Atavism option that did have that was pretty underwhelming. As such, half-orcs that want to be thematically strong as well as Bearfolk (and similar beastfolk) can use my homebrew rules to play as one :)
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 16, 2022, 10:09:41 AM
Btw, how popular is Savage Worlds? Do many groups play it? I honestly hadn't heard about it until now.
That's a good question. Relative to DnD? Nothing is popular. Relative to other TTRPG's? Pretty popular from what I can see. It's fully VTT supported, and there has been a massive influx of players converting over from Pathfinder and Palladium Rifts as both of those game systems are licensed and working with Pinnacle to keep their content rolling over seemingly in perpetuity.
Looking at the activity on both their forums and their Discord, Reddit etc. there are tons of people just like you, never heard of it, started playing it, and never went back. I'm one of those people. 40+ years of d20 including writing and development for Paizo and WotC and other third parties, then I played Deadlands back in Explorer Edition (the previous edition to the modern SWADE - Savage Worlds Adventurers Edition - edition) and knew 2-minutes into gameplay that this system could do DnD Fantasy better than DnD and any of its derivatives. I still consider myself a relative newcomer to Savage Worlds. I only wish I got here sooner.
I feel vindicated in that after making those claims the subsequent SWADE edition dropped and then Savage Rifts blew the doors off to show how high this system could scale in regular gameplay. And then when Savage Pathfinder dropped - since all the rules are compatible - it immediately showcased how to run a DnD fantasy game at levels virtually no one plays at except in rarified events. Very very few GM's can or even *want* to maintain a Pathfinder game post 15th lvl. Savage Pathfinder *can* do that level of gameplay without remotely breaking a sweat. And better it can maintain that level of play and *far* beyond that with relative ease.
Savage Worlds being a toolkit put the GM firmly at the wheel for easy rules and mechanics tweaking to fine-tune their game as they see fit. It scales ridiculously easier than d20 does and requires much less effort to run. I'm not saying it's rules-lite. It's low-mid-level crunch once you understand the very basic caveats to its mechanics. But it's far less rigorous than anything d20 and much easier to learn.
Which is exactly what most Pathfinder converts are saying (unsurprisingly) on Reddit and Pinnacle Discord. Frankly none of this surprises me from the Pathfinder crowd. Where I *WAS* shocked was the love Savage Worlds is getting from the Palladium Rifts fandom. Those guys are pretty hardcore, and Savage Rifts has won a lot of them over. So much so going forward all official Palladium products (they have like 8 projects about to be released) will be dual-statted for Savage Worlds.
And in case you don't know - the *reason* I even mention Rifts is because Rifts is *radically* more powerful in context than most things you'd deal with in Pathfinder. The Tarrasque would be a major issue, but would likely be dealt with in relatively short order. It would be one Kaiju+ among **many** other horrible things running around that setting. The chassis upon which Savage Rifts is built can be deconstructed whole or in part to leverage into your high-level Savage Pathfinder games with very little effort. Because the system is designed that way.
So imagine if Pathfinder had rules for 20th-30th level play (and your brain didn't melt from considering those 10-page stat-blocs) but it was actually PLAYABLE not just for kicks and giggles, but for prolonged campaigning. Your characters would START at that power-level and you'd run your campaign normally. Yeah that's how flexible and scalable Savage Worlds is. It's not perfect, but it's damn fine gaming with ridiculous low overhead.
Looks better than my typical player handouts but I pee on it for anime, which I hate. So disregarding my bias which my ethos demands I must state, it'd be a great thing to hand to players at the start of a new campaign. Not much of a guru on the 3e rules, never played pathfinder for example, but if you have playtested it and it works, i'd say print it and hand it out at the table and keep on rolling. I usually just do a black and white doc to save printer ink myself.
Quote from: Slipshot762 on November 18, 2022, 03:36:14 PM
Looks better than my typical player handouts but I pee on it for anime, which I hate. So disregarding my bias which my ethos demands I must state, it'd be a great thing to hand to players at the start of a new campaign. Not much of a guru on the 3e rules, never played pathfinder for example, but if you have playtested it and it works, i'd say print it and hand it out at the table and keep on rolling. I usually just do a black and white doc to save printer ink myself.
To each their own of course, and I appreciate it :) I thought I'd share it here for other 3rd edition and Pathfinder fans, so they can have fun with it as well. So far the feedback from those who played it has been very positive.
Quote from: tenbones on November 18, 2022, 11:38:47 AM
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 16, 2022, 10:09:41 AM
Btw, how popular is Savage Worlds? Do many groups play it? I honestly hadn't heard about it until now.
That's a good question. Relative to DnD? Nothing is popular. Relative to other TTRPG's? Pretty popular from what I can see. It's fully VTT supported, and there has been a massive influx of players converting over from Pathfinder and Palladium Rifts as both of those game systems are licensed and working with Pinnacle to keep their content rolling over seemingly in perpetuity.
Looking at the activity on both their forums and their Discord, Reddit etc. there are tons of people just like you, never heard of it, started playing it, and never went back. I'm one of those people. 40+ years of d20 including writing and development for Paizo and WotC and other third parties, then I played Deadlands back in Explorer Edition (the previous edition to the modern SWADE - Savage Worlds Adventurers Edition - edition) and knew 2-minutes into gameplay that this system could do DnD Fantasy better than DnD and any of its derivatives. I still consider myself a relative newcomer to Savage Worlds. I only wish I got here sooner.
I feel vindicated in that after making those claims the subsequent SWADE edition dropped and then Savage Rifts blew the doors off to show how high this system could scale in regular gameplay. And then when Savage Pathfinder dropped - since all the rules are compatible - it immediately showcased how to run a DnD fantasy game at levels virtually no one plays at except in rarified events. Very very few GM's can or even *want* to maintain a Pathfinder game post 15th lvl. Savage Pathfinder *can* do that level of gameplay without remotely breaking a sweat. And better it can maintain that level of play and *far* beyond that with relative ease.
Savage Worlds being a toolkit put the GM firmly at the wheel for easy rules and mechanics tweaking to fine-tune their game as they see fit. It scales ridiculously easier than d20 does and requires much less effort to run. I'm not saying it's rules-lite. It's low-mid-level crunch once you understand the very basic caveats to its mechanics. But it's far less rigorous than anything d20 and much easier to learn.
Which is exactly what most Pathfinder converts are saying (unsurprisingly) on Reddit and Pinnacle Discord. Frankly none of this surprises me from the Pathfinder crowd. Where I *WAS* shocked was the love Savage Worlds is getting from the Palladium Rifts fandom. Those guys are pretty hardcore, and Savage Rifts has won a lot of them over. So much so going forward all official Palladium products (they have like 8 projects about to be released) will be dual-statted for Savage Worlds.
And in case you don't know - the *reason* I even mention Rifts is because Rifts is *radically* more powerful in context than most things you'd deal with in Pathfinder. The Tarrasque would be a major issue, but would likely be dealt with in relatively short order. It would be one Kaiju+ among **many** other horrible things running around that setting. The chassis upon which Savage Rifts is built can be deconstructed whole or in part to leverage into your high-level Savage Pathfinder games with very little effort. Because the system is designed that way.
So imagine if Pathfinder had rules for 20th-30th level play (and your brain didn't melt from considering those 10-page stat-blocs) but it was actually PLAYABLE not just for kicks and giggles, but for prolonged campaigning. Your characters would START at that power-level and you'd run your campaign normally. Yeah that's how flexible and scalable Savage Worlds is. It's not perfect, but it's damn fine gaming with ridiculous low overhead.
Working with pinacle? What do you mean? I think I'm a bit out of the loop there. Why are so many people abandoning Pathfinder 2E?
Pathfinder 2E is just kind of bland and boring. IMO of course.
I'm playing it right now myself for the first time. Honestly, some things they did well, like the abilitys core increases at 5th level, where you increase 4 different ability scores by 2, or only by 1 if the score is already 18. However, it doesn't feel like the old school 3rd edition and Pathfinder 1E anymore. It sort of lost it's charm you know?
I mean, it is still fun to play, as I had a fun match with my kitsune yesterday evening where I was able to become a Thaumaturge with foxfire attacks, which you getting 3 actions which you can fill in. But all of that makes it feel more like a board game (and not the roleplaying board game kind of board game) like 4th edition was with its cards.
I'd wish that they'd stuck closer to 3rd edition rules, and simply streamlined those a little better, and added things like Backgrounds from the start, sort of like what Owlgames did with those two pathfinder video games: Kingmaker and Wrath of the Righteous.
IMO Pathfinder 2E is a spiritual successor of DND 4E. Which is really ironic considering the entire reason Pathfinder exists was so some people could avoid DND 4E.
Personally I prefer DND 4E over Pathfinder 2E, but they have their pros and cons.
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 19, 2022, 11:25:22 AM
Working with pinacle? What do you mean? I think I'm a bit out of the loop there. Why are so many people abandoning Pathfinder 2E?
As others have mentioned, PF2e wasn't as popular as they hoped. As to whether or not it has anything to do with their partnership with Pinnacle, is insider baseball I know nothing about. But its very coincidental and convenient while making an awful lot of business sense.
The fact of the matter is that I'm only relaying what those people are saying, and it tracks with my own experience and I used to be a feature writer for Paizo. PF1 like most d20 based games has a solid sweetspot. But it gets progressively more unwieldy beyond that sweetspot, and Savage Worlds can stay in the pocket much longer (in fact I have yet to hit the wall in terms of the upper end) and is much easier to learn. It plays super well on the battlemat, and does equally well without it.
And they're super friendly for user-made content on their SWAG program where you can sell your creations. Although you can't do it for licensed material, you can make it generic with little effort.
Quote from: tenbones on November 19, 2022, 07:35:14 PM
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 19, 2022, 11:25:22 AM
Working with pinacle? What do you mean? I think I'm a bit out of the loop there. Why are so many people abandoning Pathfinder 2E?
As others have mentioned, PF2e wasn't as popular as they hoped. As to whether or not it has anything to do with their partnership with Pinnacle, is insider baseball I know nothing about. But its very coincidental and convenient while making an awful lot of business sense.
The fact of the matter is that I'm only relaying what those people are saying, and it tracks with my own experience and I used to be a feature writer for Paizo. PF1 like most d20 based games has a solid sweetspot. But it gets progressively more unwieldy beyond that sweetspot, and Savage Worlds can stay in the pocket much longer (in fact I have yet to hit the wall in terms of the upper end) and is much easier to learn. It plays super well on the battlemat, and does equally well without it.
And they're super friendly for user-made content on their SWAG program where you can sell your creations. Although you can't do it for licensed material, you can make it generic with little effort.
Hold on, what happened with Pinnacle? Again, I'm a bit out of the loop here, as I honestly have no idea who those are. Could you fill me in real quick?
And the "sweet spot" is actually a pretty good description of how I feel that Pathfinder 1st edition was the better version compared to PF 2, even if it was a tad complicated.
Pinnacle are the publishers of Savage Worlds.
Edit: sorry for the brevity, I don't wanna derail your thread. If you really want to know more about Savage Worlds Pathfinder, and do a side-by-side, go ahead and make a thread and I'll dive right in. I don't want to take the attention away from your creations here. :)
Quote from: tenbones on November 20, 2022, 10:01:37 PM
Pinnacle are the publishers of Savage Worlds.
Edit: sorry for the brevity, I don't wanna derail your thread. If you really want to know more about Savage Worlds Pathfinder, and do a side-by-side, go ahead and make a thread and I'll dive right in. I don't want to take the attention away from your creations here. :)
Hey no worries at all, I honestly appreciate the discussion :) It is nice to have a website where they don't try to shove woke ideology into your face first and foremost, and just see dudes that genuinly enjoy the hobby XD
But are you familiar with 3rd edition Dungeons & Dragons then? Funny thing is, the catfolk actually originated from the book Races of the Wild from 2006, but back then they looked more like thundercats as opposed to the furries you see in Pathfinder:
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/emerald-isles/images/1/1d/Catfolk.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20170110032447)
As such I wanted to make a tribute to the OG catfolk, and decided to make my variant here, for those that like to play unique races with animalistic features but without going furry if you will XD Even if that means that basically these catfolk will be more "weebish":
(https://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/emerald-isles/images/9/95/Catfolk_-_Maneki.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20170110032448)
Jokes aside, I quite like them in D&D 3.5 as a unique race. They were still mostly human-ish, and their stats were a fair tradeoff for a +1 LA player race. Here is a link to their old statistics: https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/races/other/catfolk.shtml
I do like how Pathfinder also has strong races like this, but doesn't add the level adjustment and basically lets the DM decide. That does mean that some races are inheritely better than others, but that honestly is fine by me seeing as it makes sense that a centaur is stronger than a human for example. I did add in a optional rule for player races with more than 15 Race Points, which you can find on the second page of my Revised Kitsune Pathfinder race. This way Pathfinder 1st edition players can play as a horse person by giving up three standard feats, to make it a little more fair to the other players. Though in my experience, most players are chill with a stronger race as long as it fits the theme of what they have in mind and they don't go munchkin on everything.
Yes. I'm very familiar with 3e. I've written a couple of 3e books (one with Mike Mearls) and lots of Dragon Magazine articles as a feature writer for Paizo. Done some work for Goodman Games.
I'm also the guy that started the whole the "races as classes" thing for Paizo that started in Dragon for 3e (or so they told me)... starting with, coincidentally Lycanthropes. It's kinda funny because I'd gotten a good dozen emails a year for almost a decade from players/GM's wanting me to do more, or give criticism to their own builds.
Even more coincidental - that article is the one that got me to loathe 3.x/Pathfinder. It encapsulated a *lot* about what was wrong in the perception of how the mechanics work, AND the reality of how they should work for maximum impact. In piecemealing their abilities and narrative assumptions smeared across 20-levels, it showed that the adherence to certain sacred cows within d20 (especially as mutated as they are in 3.x) only hindered actual gameplay in lieu of mechanics *being* the game more than the actual gameplay.
Anyhow - I have no problems with "Cat Folk" or "Bat Folk" or any kind of race someone comes up with... with the caveat that they are deeply contextual to a setting. Otherwise I find any and all races outside of humans being pointless without that context. And in many cases even humans are pointless unless they are properly contextualized.
I want to see cultures, clothing, foods, that support why these races exist. I want customs, histories, unique expressions of the race within their own culture. On their own? They're no different then any mechanical expression that is engaged with in lieu of actual roleplaying. As you do this hobby for a long period of time it has become clear to me that you can do so much more with so much less.
But that's a developmental situation. The OSR is probably only brand of "d20" that I'd have any interest in, but to be honest, I'd rather do my own 10-level version of 2e with deep-beef slaughtering of many of the sacred cows for my own fantasy heartbreaker. Unfortunately its going to remain on the backburner due to many other writing projects I have in the queue.
Quote from: tenbones on November 21, 2022, 10:15:21 AM
Yes. I'm very familiar with 3e. I've written a couple of 3e books (one with Mike Mearls) and lots of Dragon Magazine articles as a feature writer for Paizo. Done some work for Goodman Games.
I'm also the guy that started the whole the "races as classes" thing for Paizo that started in Dragon for 3e (or so they told me)... starting with, coincidentally Lycanthropes. It's kinda funny because I'd gotten a good dozen emails a year for almost a decade from players/GM's wanting me to do more, or give criticism to their own builds.
Even more coincidental - that article is the one that got me to loathe 3.x/Pathfinder. It encapsulated a *lot* about what was wrong in the perception of how the mechanics work, AND the reality of how they should work for maximum impact. In piecemealing their abilities and narrative assumptions smeared across 20-levels, it showed that the adherence to certain sacred cows within d20 (especially as mutated as they are in 3.x) only hindered actual gameplay in lieu of mechanics *being* the game more than the actual gameplay.
Anyhow - I have no problems with "Cat Folk" or "Bat Folk" or any kind of race someone comes up with... with the caveat that they are deeply contextual to a setting. Otherwise I find any and all races outside of humans being pointless without that context. And in many cases even humans are pointless unless they are properly contextualized.
I want to see cultures, clothing, foods, that support why these races exist. I want customs, histories, unique expressions of the race within their own culture. On their own? They're no different then any mechanical expression that is engaged with in lieu of actual roleplaying. As you do this hobby for a long period of time it has become clear to me that you can do so much more with so much less.
But that's a developmental situation. The OSR is probably only brand of "d20" that I'd have any interest in, but to be honest, I'd rather do my own 10-level version of 2e with deep-beef slaughtering of many of the sacred cows for my own fantasy heartbreaker. Unfortunately its going to remain on the backburner due to many other writing projects I have in the queue.
Honestly, that's pretty awesome! What I've managed to do at most was create a sequel for "Races of the Dragon" for Dungeons & Dragons 5E, though I spend quite a few years on that. Here is a link to one of the races in case you are interested (the book will have 150 pages and this is a preview, but I'm hoping to start a kickstarter for it next year), which is my half dragon player race. I was never a fan of making the half-dragon a template, so I made it a complete race instead, with the dragon breath recharging on a 6 on a d6 die roll.: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1d-XqrHLMfd7MCoNFn7KMK5T5iPPtsIrs/view
Also, the races as classes idea was a pretty good idea, as it gave players some more hit points while still giving them those thematic boons.
But I'm a bit confused what you mean with "that article", as in the one that made you loathe 3x ? Which article are you referring to?
And I've never played 2nd edition to be honest, but I did play Baldur's Gate 2 Shadows of Amn (which was an amazing game by the way!). When compared, what did you feel 3rd edition dit better to 2nd edition, and what did it to worse? I kept hearing how 3rd edition was more "realistic".
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 21, 2022, 10:31:22 AM
Honestly, that's pretty awesome! What I've managed to do at most was create a sequel for "Races of the Dragon" for Dungeons & Dragons 5E, though I spend quite a few years on that. Here is a link to one of the races in case you are interested (the book will have 150 pages and this is a preview, but I'm hoping to start a kickstarter for it next year), which is my half dragon player race. I was never a fan of making the half-dragon a template, so I made it a complete race instead, with the dragon breath recharging on a 6 on a d6 die roll.: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1d-XqrHLMfd7MCoNFn7KMK5T5iPPtsIrs/view
In fairness I think the whole "half-anything" is silly - especially interspecies arbitrary things like Half-dragons... without context. Consider what that actually means: Dragons themselves are relative to their settings. But navigating those mediums of assumptions - near immortal, possibly arch-mage levels of magic use, nigh-omnipotent apex predators cross breeding with humans? 1) for WHAT? 2) In what context do Dragons and Humans mate with enough degree to produce a distinct race with a culture to support them 3) by your write up half-dragons want nothing more than to become DRAGONS. I can easily see why humans would be resentful of such intrusions... and want to kill Dragons among other erasons.
Now if you came up with a setting where there was a solid reason beyond "I want to look like an fey-anime-human with ubiquitous fae/but-not-fae/tieflingish features but I'm dragon-blooded (yeah!)" and pretend that the other extant cultures might have a dim view of scaly monsters lurking in their midsts banging away and breeding these mutants into their society where their primary goal is to become/identify with those self-same monsters"... Yeah there's a LOT of unspoken blankspots in this concept on its own. But the devil is in the details... and if there's too much devil then you'll have tieflings. /snicker.
Your technical presentation for layout is excellent. The content needs work - but if you're just making stuff for Pathfinder players to do whatever with, you'll probably be fine.
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 21, 2022, 10:31:22 AMAlso, the races as classes idea was a pretty good idea, as it gave players some more hit points while still giving them those thematic boons.
But I'm a bit confused what you mean with "that article", as in the one that made you loathe 3x ? Which article are you referring to?
It was a horrible idea *because* editorial at WotC which had oversight of Paizo (when I was working for them) vetoed what *should* have been a 5-level PrC. They instead wanted/forced me to spread the races out across 20-levels. Mind you - this was in lieu of having an actual CLASS. So no, you didn't get more HP. In fact you got tended to get median or less.
The article was just one of many I did for Dragon as a feature writer. (Feature writers were the small stable of writers that were "go to" writers they could count on for both for their own ideas for projects as well as projects coming from editorial). Frankly it was the anvil that broke my back on 3.x. I was ALL IN at the start, but it was so clunky, and got clunkier as time wore on.
There *are* good flavors of 3.x - but precisely none of them are particularly popular. Fantasy Craft is probably my favorite. But I like True20, and M&M as well.
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 21, 2022, 10:31:22 AMAnd I've never played 2nd edition to be honest, but I did play Baldur's Gate 2 Shadows of Amn (which was an amazing game by the way!). When compared, what did you feel 3rd edition dit better to 2nd edition, and what did it to worse? I kept hearing how 3rd edition was more "realistic".
3x RAW, is only better than 2e in superficial ways. Unified stats, ascending AC, etc. were a good step in the right direction. But their class builds are extremely flawed in that they effectively reduce the actual game to playing the mechanics AS the game. Where people make builds, and the narrative fluff of the race/class combinations becoming further and further removed from any kind of setting assumptions. This became more pronounced in 4e and 5e.
2e isn't perfect either. But it holds closer to the emergent play intended (though some would argue OSR editions are the only real exemplars of this - I would disagree) by Gary and Dave. The mechanics should only explain how the players do the things they intend, they are not the game itself.
Quote from: tenbones on November 21, 2022, 01:30:59 PM
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 21, 2022, 10:31:22 AM
Honestly, that's pretty awesome! What I've managed to do at most was create a sequel for "Races of the Dragon" for Dungeons & Dragons 5E, though I spend quite a few years on that. Here is a link to one of the races in case you are interested (the book will have 150 pages and this is a preview, but I'm hoping to start a kickstarter for it next year), which is my half dragon player race. I was never a fan of making the half-dragon a template, so I made it a complete race instead, with the dragon breath recharging on a 6 on a d6 die roll.: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1d-XqrHLMfd7MCoNFn7KMK5T5iPPtsIrs/view
In fairness I think the whole "half-anything" is silly - especially interspecies arbitrary things like Half-dragons... without context. Consider what that actually means: Dragons themselves are relative to their settings. But navigating those mediums of assumptions - near immortal, possibly arch-mage levels of magic use, nigh-omnipotent apex predators cross breeding with humans? 1) for WHAT? 2) In what context do Dragons and Humans mate with enough degree to produce a distinct race with a culture to support them 3) by your write up half-dragons want nothing more than to become DRAGONS. I can easily see why humans would be resentful of such intrusions... and want to kill Dragons among other erasons.
Now if you came up with a setting where there was a solid reason beyond "I want to look like an fey-anime-human with ubiquitous fae/but-not-fae/tieflingish features but I'm dragon-blooded (yeah!)" and pretend that the other extant cultures might have a dim view of scaly monsters lurking in their midsts banging away and breeding these mutants into their society where their primary goal is to become/identify with those self-same monsters"... Yeah there's a LOT of unspoken blankspots in this concept on its own. But the devil is in the details... and if there's too much devil then you'll have tieflings. /snicker.
Your technical presentation for layout is excellent. The content needs work - but if you're just making stuff for Pathfinder players to do whatever with, you'll probably be fine.
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 21, 2022, 10:31:22 AMAlso, the races as classes idea was a pretty good idea, as it gave players some more hit points while still giving them those thematic boons.
But I'm a bit confused what you mean with "that article", as in the one that made you loathe 3x ? Which article are you referring to?
It was a horrible idea *because* editorial at WotC which had oversight of Paizo (when I was working for them) vetoed what *should* have been a 5-level PrC. They instead wanted/forced me to spread the races out across 20-levels. Mind you - this was in lieu of having an actual CLASS. So no, you didn't get more HP. In fact you got tended to get median or less.
The article was just one of many I did for Dragon as a feature writer. (Feature writers were the small stable of writers that were "go to" writers they could count on for both for their own ideas for projects as well as projects coming from editorial). Frankly it was the anvil that broke my back on 3.x. I was ALL IN at the start, but it was so clunky, and got clunkier as time wore on.
There *are* good flavors of 3.x - but precisely none of them are particularly popular. Fantasy Craft is probably my favorite. But I like True20, and M&M as well.
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 21, 2022, 10:31:22 AMAnd I've never played 2nd edition to be honest, but I did play Baldur's Gate 2 Shadows of Amn (which was an amazing game by the way!). When compared, what did you feel 3rd edition dit better to 2nd edition, and what did it to worse? I kept hearing how 3rd edition was more "realistic".
3x RAW, is only better than 2e in superficial ways. Unified stats, ascending AC, etc. were a good step in the right direction. But their class builds are extremely flawed in that they effectively reduce the actual game to playing the mechanics AS the game. Where people make builds, and the narrative fluff of the race/class combinations becoming further and further removed from any kind of setting assumptions. This became more pronounced in 4e and 5e.
2e isn't perfect either. But it holds closer to the emergent play intended (though some would argue OSR editions are the only real exemplars of this - I would disagree) by Gary and Dave. The mechanics should only explain how the players do the things they intend, they are not the game itself.
I'm a bit confused, as I did remember seeing "monster races" where a Drow had like 1 or 2 levels of being "Drow", which was basically a "monster class" of sorts. Or did that come later on? I have been looking online a bit, but I can't seem to find it myself anymore. But I do recall reading a D&D book where you could have several "monster levels" before you could go and take a character class.
"There *are* good flavors of 3.x - but precisely none of them are particularly popular. Fantasy Craft is probably my favorite. But I like True20, and M&M as well."
With flavors, you mean like versions that are based on 3.x similar to what Pathfinder 1st edition did? I looked up Fantasy Craft and found this: https://www.amazon.com/Fantasy-Craft-CFG01001-Alex-Flagg/dp/0982684304 What exactly does that work add? Or is it meant to be a alternative version of 3rd edition?
"3x RAW, is only better than 2e in superficial ways. Unified stats, ascending AC, etc. were a good step in the right direction. But their class builds are extremely flawed in that they effectively reduce the actual game to playing the mechanics AS the game. Where people make builds, and the narrative fluff of the race/class combinations becoming further and further removed from any kind of setting assumptions. This became more pronounced in 4e and 5e."
So what you are saying is essentially that the class options that they added were not diverse enough in order to create the kind of character that you wanted? Or did you mean that they got too overly complex with the options and rules?
"2e isn't perfect either. But it holds closer to the emergent play intended (though some would argue OSR editions are the only real exemplars of this - I would disagree) by Gary and Dave. The mechanics should only explain how the players do the things they intend, they are not the game itself."
Why would they say that OSR editions are the only real examplars of this?
Enjoy the read...
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/3e-side-by-side-battle-pathfinder-dd-3-5-fantasy-craft-walk-into-the-thunderdome/
*I* would never be the guy on this forum to tell you which OSR game to play as I don't actually play any touted brand of OSR (and I'm embarrassed to say even after all these years, I don't know what OSR *really* means outside of brands of d20 that riff off Basic, or 1e/2e rules). Getting some definitive answer to that question seems... difficult. But when people say OSR to me? It pretty much means a system which is based on a strain of D&D pre-3.x
OSR fans feel free to chip in.
I've been bandying around my 2e-ish heartbreaker for years now. I'm more interested in doing that rather than running some existing OSR-specific brand mostly because I like the idea of spending some elbow-grease and building it myself for the love of the process.
Also, I just noticed that I had posted the older version of my "Unchained" Ninja optional feature, as I still had the old optional rules posted there. Here is the updated version:
"Unchained" Ninja + Nokizaru Archetype
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1auY5Qi-SG0F_sEXiHr8mILhGvW5f3Y9l/view
(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/3ef18718-60d9-4d07-9c20-514f1a521ef3/dfiv80f-92c692ce-08da-44c7-b551-84a872798014.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzNlZjE4NzE4LTYwZDktNGQwNy05YzIwLTUxNGYxYTUyMWVmM1wvZGZpdjgwZi05MmM2OTJjZS0wOGRhLTQ0YzctYjU1MS04NGE4NzI3OTgwMTQucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.N-hHR8W1QdeGjPnsbFrfojLhPWGbWmZIBfxJ80mwMJc)
And here is an update to my Catfolk player race for Pathfinder 1st edition, to which I added an additional alternate racial trait. For those that want to use these traits when playing as a Strength based Beastfolk race (such like a wolf-folk or tiger-folk etc.), either Nekomimi or furry (which are two separate things). Hope you guys will like this as well!
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Hxn22W0P-C-RhqpuRO31TTRZgceJuhsI/view
(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/3ef18718-60d9-4d07-9c20-514f1a521ef3/dfiwinl-19836929-e00a-4aef-aaa3-720267771e86.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzNlZjE4NzE4LTYwZDktNGQwNy05YzIwLTUxNGYxYTUyMWVmM1wvZGZpd2lubC0xOTgzNjkyOS1lMDBhLTRhZWYtYWFhMy03MjAyNjc3NzFlODYucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.jhQvT_Gky2z1s65Emh5bEfdYI8iSsEyz1e6stWL0NEQ)