I stumbled across a piece of text in Secrets of the Ruined Temple from Mage the Awakening. It says on page 12:
Secrets of the Ruined Temple takes an approach that some players might find odd. You won't find a complete guide to Atlantis, with all the mysteries neatly explained. No, this book deepens the mystery of Atlantis, by propounding multiple possibilities and a whole lot of new questions. The purpose of this
book is to help you imagine your own version of Atlantis, and work the clues to that version into your chronicle.
This is true for the entire new WoD line. All the settings give you multiple explanations of what the history of the world might. In other words it doesn't give you answers, only more questions.
Is there any other RPG that does this? And what do you think of this approach?
Not a game, but the Eberron setting gives you lots of plot-feeds like the Mourning or the Dragon Prophecies or the political situation in Korvaire, without spelling out all the answers. They just give the frame on which the DM and the players can construct their version of the world.
I like this.
Arguably the subjective nature of the information for Glorantha in effect does this.
I would put Talislanta in that category. The span of time is so massive and empires have risen and fallen - even the myriad of races that exist aren't accounted for in the histories.
That's changing with the new Talislanta project, but even then, it's only addressing a segment of the history.
Personally - I like it. It allows GM's who are salty to dig their fingers into the dirt of the game and make it their own. And run their games accordingly with the only real certainty about what IS vs. what the PC's perceive. That imbalance is a powerful gaming tool and in the hands of a good GM can make the experience for the players truly unique.
IIRC one of the older versions of RuneQuest had a big patch of the map of Glorantha (SP?) blank with the disclaimer "We're never going describe this area, it's the domain of each individual GM to fill as they wish".
Did they ever renege on that? I hope not, because it's an awesome idea.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;783509IIRC one of the older versions of RuneQuest had a big patch of the map of Glorantha (SP?) blank with the disclaimer "We're never going describe this area, it's the domain of each individual GM to fill as they wish".
Did they ever renege on that? I hope not, because it's an awesome idea.
It was the Blank Lands idea. Garsting (in between Balazar and the Lunar Empire and next to the Elf Sea) was one. I think there was another in the east near the Kingdom of War.
I believe Balazar was retconned or Gregged away, but I don't know whether or not they kept Garsting or the other Blank Lands.
Monte Cook games has done at least one setting book like this.
This is also the official company line of GW regarding the Warhammer 40k setting, to brush of all the inconsistencies that developed through years of changing designers and legions of writers (many first grade hacks) contributing.
I like it. I don't read setting books to get some truth, canon or answers. I want ideas and useful material, if I get multiple choices, that is much better.
However, I get that someone who wants definite answer is dissatisfied and in addition might think he would get more material, if the choices wheren't there, as well.
The new world of darkness is shady overal. There are multiple versions of history, usually very fragmented. A lot of story seeds. It is usually not very relevant to the players though. So you really have to flseh it out and make it matter to the players.
For example there is a vampiric sect called VII who want to kill all other vampires. Only who they are, where they come from and why they want to kill them all isn't given. So they could be an ancient cult of vampire hunters, a different vampire race or maybe even seven very ancient, powerful vampires.
Just to give an impression.
Quote from: Bren;783498Arguably the subjective nature of the information for Glorantha in effect does this.
Glorantha isn't a game, right? It's the setting for Runequest?
Deadlands sort of did that. Hell on Earth was a possible future of Deadlands, but not necessarily the "canon" one.
But OTOH, if that is the future that gets published, isn't it in fact what is canon?
Quote from: jan paparazzi;783542Glorantha isn't a game, right? It's the setting for Runequest?
Correct. It is the original setting used for Runequest. It's creator, Greg Stafford, is known for a subjective approach to the mythology and history of Glorantha. Also for revisions or new visions (hard to tell which sometimes) of things that have previously been described. The process of new information invalidating old is sometimes described as being "Gregged."
Ambivalent.
On the one hand, incomplete ideas can kickstart the GM's imagination.
On the other hand, ideas are cheap, if I'm 100% of the implementation, what the fuck am I paying you for again?
Way to do it wrong...
OWoD - You've spent years, and I've spent hundreds of dollars on a metaplot setting and in the end you're telling me Truth is Subjective for my campaign...thanks, I already knew that asshole.
Way to do it right...
NWoD - Like it or hate it, here's what you get up front, no Truth, so don't come to us looking for any.
In the CoC zine 'The Unspeakable Oath'... one of my favorite regular sections are the 'Fragments of Fear'... each one sets up a weird situation and then gives several possible explanations.
As a GM I love it when settings are presented that way... with big blank spots or alternate versions of what might be the truth.
As a Player it kind of bugs me when GMs present setting background in a very factual way... like an encyclopedia entry... vs. "What you've heard is X... but some people claim Y... and that faction over there says it's Z". It bugs me when they pull out a big map of the setting all the bits filled in and it's obviously 'accurate' and dependable.
Quote from: Simlasa;783685In the CoC zine 'The Unspeakable Oath'... one of my favorite regular sections are the 'Fragments of Fear'... each one sets up a weird situation and then gives several possible explanations.
That's exactly nwod is doing it. Usually with several bullets.
Quote from: CRKrueger;783638Ambivalent.
On the one hand, incomplete ideas can kickstart the GM's imagination.
On the other hand, ideas are cheap, if I'm 100% of the implementation, what the fuck am I paying you for again?
That's how I feel about it as well. Neat ideas, but why do I pay for a book if I am doing all the work?
Quote from: Simlasa;783685In the CoC zine 'The Unspeakable Oath'... one of my favorite regular sections are the 'Fragments of Fear'... each one sets up a weird situation and then gives several possible explanations.
I like Fragments of Fear.
But an idea for an adventure with six different options for what is really going on is to me very different than a setting that suggests six different options for what the King of Country1 is doing in his capital or why the Queen of Country2 is considering war with Country1. I don't need that sort of uncertainty built into the setting info. I want consistent, coherent setting information. Uncertainty is easy for me to add on my own either by riffing on what is there or by presenting only partial information to the players. The players will then add even more uncertainty just by virtue of their imperfect understanding and recollection of the information that has been presented.
Quote from: Bren;783707But an idea for an adventure with six different options for what is really going on is to me very different than a setting that suggests six different options for what the King of Country1 is doing in his capital or why the Queen of Country2 is considering war with Country1. I don't need that sort of uncertainty built into the setting info.
I don't 'need' it either, but I like it and prefer it... if it's well done with interesting options.
QuoteI want consistent, coherent setting information.
So do I... to a point. It's not like I'm saying the setting should be nothing but a series of random charts (though that could be fun!).
By giving optional explanations of what's going on it's not like the writer didn't do the work... he's giving you multiple choices that he feels all fit the concept/flavor/theme of the setting.
Quote from: Simlasa;783708By giving optional explanations of what's going on it's not like the writer didn't do the work... he's giving you multiple choices that he feels all fit the concept/flavor/theme of the setting.
Minor items are fine e.g. adventure hooks. But I don't think that multiple major setting choices is going to produce a consistent setting with anything like the level of detail I'd want in a published setting.
One reason for the Fragments of Fear is that uncertainty about what's truly behind the Silent Men (or whatever the hook is) allows players to both subscribe to Uspeakable Oath and to play on an adventure based on Fragments of Fear.
Quote from: Bren;783707I like Fragments of Fear.
But an idea for an adventure with six different options for what is really going on is to me very different than a setting that suggests six different options for what the King of Country1 is doing in his capital or why the Queen of Country2 is considering war with Country1. I don't need that sort of uncertainty built into the setting info. I want consistent, coherent setting information. Uncertainty is easy for me to add on my own either by riffing on what is there or by presenting only partial information to the players. The players will then add even more uncertainty just by virtue of their imperfect understanding and recollection of the information that has been presented.
The adventure with six different options is what the old WoD did with the Gehenna books for example. The setting with six different options is what new WoD does.
In Ancient Mysteries for example is a piece of backstory about how the ancient vampire society in Mesopotamia got wiped out by a monsters called the Edimmu. After that fragment of history you get three story seeds how you could make that return in the present day. The monsters could return or a vampire could get cursed and killed or a cult arises with one very powerful vampire are the three options you get.
Of course you can also do something else with it or complete ignore it. Actually both the setting and the adventures you can play have several different options. The amount of detail does suffer, yes.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;783542Glorantha isn't a game, right? It's the setting for Runequest?
WOD is a setting too, its just packed in and different in each sourcebook and splatbook.
d20 Gamma World played on the idea of what exactly was the cause. There was conflicting info on what the cause for the collapse was. This isnt surprising as it is also a White Wolf product via their S&S/Arthaus sideline.
Dark Sun and Dragonlance has it to a lesser degree. Neither played with that aspect though.
In NWOD isn't the God Machine itself left open to interpretation? With several possibilities suggested?
Maybe I like that sort of thing because I love horror and mystery so much... and having the world too well-defined drains out some of that atmosphere, for me...and settings with too much detail often come off as dry, IMO.
Quote from: Omega;783788WOD is a setting too, its just packed in and different in each sourcebook and splatbook.
d20 Gamma World played on the idea of what exactly was the cause. There was conflicting info on what the cause for the collapse was. This isnt surprising as it is also a White Wolf product via their S&S/Arthaus sideline.
Dark Sun and Dragonlance has it to a lesser degree. Neither played with that aspect though.
It's a stacked setting. You have multiple super settings you can use. You can even use more than one of them at the same time. But the WoD itself is a modern horror setting which allows you to play a mortal investigating weird stuff. It's like a supernatural version of the X-files, Cthulhu without the mythos or a Silent Hill like setting.
Quote from: Simlasa;783818In NWOD isn't the God Machine itself left open to interpretation? With several possibilities suggested?
Maybe I like that sort of thing because I love horror and mystery so much... and having the world too well-defined drains out some of that atmosphere, for me...and settings with too much detail often come off as dry, IMO.
Yes, it is. It's unknown what it is and what it wants. The only thing known is how it works, namely via Infrastructure. That comes in different flavors. Concealment (cloaking), defense (mortals, cults, angels), logistics (getting the right stuff at the right place at the right time), elimination (cleaners) and command and control (planning, decisions). And the rest is up to you.