Have you ever run a multi-generational game? One where the PCs raised a new generation and the campaign continued on from there?
It's the default for all my fantasy campaigns, and for the primary campaign in my home town the default for 32 years now. It is worth noting that to me multi-generational means more than just saying, let's switch to running the kids now and hand wave the change.
I require direct interaction between the generations allowing younger and lower level characters to adventure with higher ones in useful ways. Further it also means that 'everyone' dies, if not from adventuring then from old age.
Thus the system has to be closed, in that it covers the whole lifespan given that interaction between the generations will occur at all points in that lifespan. This is a feature few game systems offer.
Quote from: gleichman;602832It's the default for all my fantasy campaigns, and for the primary campaign in my home town the default for 32 years now. It is worth noting that to me multi-generational means more than just saying, let's switch to running the kids now and hand wave the change.
I require direct interaction between the generations allowing younger and lower level characters to adventure with higher ones in useful ways. Further it also means that 'everyone' dies, if not from adventuring then from old age.
Thus the system has to be closed, in that it covers the whole lifespan given that interaction between the generations will occur at all points in that lifespan. This is a feature few game systems offer.
Just curious, but what systems do you feel that meet your criteria?
Quote from: mythusmage;602806Have you ever run a multi-generational game? One where the PCs raised a new generation and the campaign continued on from there?
Not quite like that. Rather I leap each successive campaign ahead by a year or two, and the consequences of the previous campaign factor into the background of the next. Been doing this for the Majestic Wilderlands since 1981.
The consequence of this as opposed, to a Pendragon style family generational campaign, is that a smaller period of time is covered at less detail but there is a broader coverage of the setting. Along with unexpected synergies as the actions of the players of later campaigns impact the actions of players in previous campaign. There is a burden on the referee to keep a record, at least a good summary, of previous campaigns.
The timeline of Majestic Wilderlands has advanced from 4433 BCCC to 4460 BCCC (the date of my current campaigns).
Quote from: RunningLaser;602834Just curious, but what systems do you feel that meet your criteria?
Mine own
Age of Heroes of course, it designed specifically for this need.
I'm unaware of any others.
Pendragon is sometimes listed by others as capable of this, but all I've ever read was the first edition rules and I didn't see any real support for the concept in actual play- just advice for hand waving things. Maybe later editions or supplements improved on this, I wouldn't know as I disliked the system for a number of reasons.
Quote from: RunningLaser;602834Just curious, but what systems do you feel that meet your criteria?
So you know my opinion is that all roleplaying system can handle this. It part of what the referee does when managing a campaign rather than needing explicit mechanics.
Explicit mechanics helps in presenting details of lifespan, NPC attitude, NPC circumstances, etc in a concise gamable form. But again are not required. Just use common sense, the RPG's character generation system, and the NPC reaction tables if they have them.
Quote from: estar;602841So you know my opinion is that all roleplaying system can handle this. It part of what the referee does when managing a campaign rather than needing explicit mechanics.
This is course is completely false, at least for the type of interaction between generations that I require of such campaigns.
In a stock 1st edition AD&D for example, what use is a 1st level fighter in the same battle with his 18th level Wizard father (to say nothing of his father's high level companions that are on the same trip)? Heck, the old man can summon more useful creatures than his son and loses nothing when they die.
What Estar is referencing here is the hand waving I was talking about.
Typically real interaction between the generations doesn't happen outside hand waved and often raidroaded social events.
If it does, it's accomplished by ignoring the rules, playing without maps and minis, altering and adding tactics to force useful outcomes for useless assets. Basically redefining reality as needed in order to include whatever the desired end is.
For me, everything must arise organically out of the game mechanics. Not simply imposed by limitless GM power.
Quote from: gleichman;602832It's the default for all my fantasy campaigns, and for the primary campaign in my home town the default for 32 years now. It is worth noting that to me multi-generational means more than just saying, let's switch to running the kids now and hand wave the change.
I require direct interaction between the generations allowing younger and lower level characters to adventure with higher ones in useful ways. Further it also means that 'everyone' dies, if not from adventuring then from old age.
Thus the system has to be closed, in that it covers the whole lifespan given that interaction between the generations will occur at all points in that lifespan. This is a feature few game systems offer.
{Quoted for truth.}
I like your thinking.
Quote from: gleichman;602848This is course is completely false, at least for the type of interaction between generations that I require of such campaigns.
In a stock 1st edition AD&D for example, what use is a 1st level fighter in the same battle with his 18th level Wizard Fighter (to say nothing of his father's high level companions that are on the same trip)? Heck, the old man can summon more useful creatures than his son and loses nothing when they die.
What use is a infant bastard son to a medieval king in his wars? Yet it doesn't stop many from showering wealth and privilege on them to gain every advantage for their progeny. It called paternal instinct. The same with the foremention 18th level Wizard Fighter. And it doesn't need mechanics to be part of a campaign.
Quote from: gleichman;602848What Estar is referencing here is the hand waving I was talking about.
Typically real interaction between the generations doesn't happen outside hand waved and often raidroaded social events.
And I suppose this statement is born of the various times you played in my campaign.
The key "mechanic" is for the referee to define personalities, goals, and motivations his NPCs. Then as the players interact with them make a judgment as to the most interesting consequences of the various probable outcomes. Then revise the personalities, goals, and motivations of his NPCs. Rinse and repeat as needed.
Explicit mechanics, like random tables, reactions rolls, event charts, help as aids for when the creative well dries. Generally I find myself and other referees have a dozen or two good ideas at a given point in a campaign. But amount of things that the players can be doing is far more than that. Aides help overcome that.
Quote from: gleichman;602848If it does, it's accomplished by ignoring the rules, playing without maps and minis, altering and adding tactics to force useful outcomes for useless assets. Basically redefining reality as needed in order to include whatever the desired end is.
Quote from: gleichman;602848For me, everything must arise organically out of the game mechanics. Not simply imposed by limitless GM power.
Your game mechanics is not a perfect simulation of your setting or chosen genre. It represent a selection of what you choose to focus on, represented in form of rules and random tables. In short it is a specific technique and one of many. Well suited for you, and not so for others.
Your experiences and knowledge guided you in what went into those rules which generate your rulings. I deploy my own experience and knowledge in a different way to generate my rulings. Either method, as well as others, will produce an immersive campaign that successfully emulates a setting.
Quote from: estar;602855And I suppose this statement is born of the various times you played in my campaign.
No, it's born of your various writings like this following:
Quote from: estar;602855What use is a infant bastard son to a medieval king in his wars? Yet it doesn't stop many from showering wealth and privilege on them to gain every advantage for their progeny.
I give you an concrete mechanical example, and you give me a hand wave social interaction in response. You confirmed what I said, but was too self-centered to see it.
Quote from: estar;602855Your game mechanics is not a perfect simulation of your setting or chosen genre.
Since in my game style the simulation is the setting you're barking up the wrong tree by putting your limited views upon others. I'm afraid that you have little understanding of how I game, know nothing of rules I use, and have even less desire to correct such failings.
Given that, you should refrain from commenting at all. I've stated my needs, that should be the end of the story.
Quote from: gleichman;602863I give you an concrete mechanical example, and you give me a hand wave social interaction in response. You confirmed what I said, but was too self-centered to see it.
My ruling on the matters comes from reading dozens of books on the subjects as well as being a broad reader to begin with. The difference is that you use mechanics a crutch ignoring the fact impartially and fairness is a personal commitment by the referee not whether he rigorously abides by a written set of rules and table.
In my 30 years I seen more than a few referees adhere to the letter of the rulebook along with making every roll in the open and yet were unfair to their players.
It great that you found an approach that suits you. But there are other approaches as well that are used by referees who value impartiality and fairness.
Quote from: gleichman;602863Since in my game style the simulation is the setting you're barking up the wrong tree by putting your limited views upon others.
Likewise my style is also involves heavy dose of simulation. The difference is that I don't have the condescending attitude to other styles that you do. Nor I view simulation as THE way to run a tabletop roleplaying campaign. It is a technique that has certain advantage and disadvantages. I recognize that not all tabletop gamers like or desire.
Quote from: gleichman;602863I'm afraid that you have little understanding of how I game, know know nothing of rules I use, and have even less desire to correct such failings.
I am well aware of what you wrote about gaming, your rules, and your setting. It not your gaming style that I have an issue with. Rather your "One true way" attitude.
Quote from: estar;602887My ruling on the matters comes from reading dozens of books on the subjects as well as being a broad reader to begin with.
No, your ruling came from yourself and it does nothing to actually make low level characters useful to high levels ones except say "I Estar say they are!". Pure Ego on your part.
I'd rather let my players find and drive uses (or not) instead of forcing it by GM decree.
Quote from: estar;602887In my 30 years I seen more than a few referees adhere to the letter of the rulebook along with making every roll in the open and yet were unfair to their players.
Given the games you play and the attitude you approach them with- I don't doubt the truth of that statement. But it says far more about you than it does me.
A chess game is always fair when played by the rules. Thus should it be with an RPG.
Quote from: estar;602887I am well aware of what you wrote about gaming, your rules, and your setting. It not your gaming style that I have an issue with. Rather your "One true way" attitude.
As for my writings and my rules, I don't believe you. I seriously doubt (like really really seriously doubt) you ponied up the $25 for the rulebook, and you show a mark lack of even a basic understanding of anything other than overblown D&D group think.
Beyond that, from what I can tell, you're aware of nothing. If you were you'd realize that we all carry the "one true way" attitude- even if that true way is denying there's a true way.
Quote from: mythusmage;602806Have you ever run a multi-generational game? One where the PCs raised a new generation and the campaign continued on from there?
Ross Watson's Shadows Angelus campaign was like that; about half the PCs in Shadows Angelus II were descendants of characters from the original.
Shadows Angelus (http://surbrook.devermore.net/worldbooks/shadows/shadowsindex.html)
Shadows Angelus II (http://surbrook.devermore.net/worldbooks/shadows_2/shadowsindex2.html)
Quote from: gleichman;602892A chess game is always fair when played by the rules. Thus should it be with an RPG.
The only rule that really applies in an RPG is Wil Wheaton's request, "Don't be a dick."
Quote from: gleichman;602848This is course is completely false, at least for the type of interaction between generations that I require of such campaigns.
In a stock 1st edition AD&D for example, what use is a 1st level fighter in the same battle with his 18th level Wizard father (to say nothing of his father's high level companions that are on the same trip)? Heck, the old man can summon more useful creatures than his son and loses nothing when they die.
What Estar is referencing here is the hand waving I was talking about.
Typically real interaction between the generations doesn't happen outside hand waved and often raidroaded social events.
If it does, it's accomplished by ignoring the rules, playing without maps and minis, altering and adding tactics to force useful outcomes for useless assets. Basically redefining reality as needed in order to include whatever the desired end is.
For me, everything must arise organically out of the game mechanics. Not simply imposed by limitless GM power.
So Gleichman doesn't actually understand human relationships, or family. Not a big surprise.
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Quote from: mythusmage;602916The only rule that really applies in an RPG is Wil Wheaton's request, "Don't be a dick."
Oddly enough, I don't consider Wil Wheaton to be a good source for how to game, live one's life or do much of anything for that matter. That others do is but cause for despair for the future of mankind.
Quote from: RPGPundit;603185So Gleichman doesn't actually understand human relationships, or family. Not a big surprise.
As usual you have no idea of what you speak.
But prove me wrong, just make the attempt to honestly restate my stated desire for a multi-generational game- the real actual mechanical need and why one would want it. I bet you can't without choking on the misdirection you just threw out because you'd realize how stupid and irrelevant it was.
Hmm, stupid and sort of describes you however. A self-describe big man like you lowering yourself to troll a poster in a thread and all. You just plainly can't resist as it's consistent behavior for you, I must have really hit home at some point. The wound is still bleeding.
Quote from: gleichman;603205As usual you have no idea of what you speak.
But prove me wrong, just make the attempt to honestly restate my stated desire for a multi-generational game- the real actual mechanical need and why one would want it. I bet you can't without choking on the misdirection you just threw out because you'd realize how stupid and irrelevant it was.
Hmm, stupid and sort of describes you however. A self-describe big man like you lowering yourself to troll a poster in a thread and all. You just plainly can't resist as it's consistent behavior for you, I must have really hit home at some point. The wound is still bleeding.
There is no crime in having a failing, the crime lies in denying it.
Quote from: gleichman;603205As usual you have no idea of what you speak.
But prove me wrong, just make the attempt to honestly restate my stated desire for a multi-generational game- the real actual mechanical need and why one would want it. I bet you can't without choking on the misdirection you just threw out because you'd realize how stupid and irrelevant it was.
Hmm, stupid and sort of describes you however. A self-describe big man like you lowering yourself to troll a poster in a thread and all. You just plainly can't resist as it's consistent behavior for you, I must have really hit home at some point. The wound is still bleeding.
Uh huh. :rolleyes:
You really hit hard and deep at me there by showing how you have an autistic incapacity to understand the most basic of Human social units.
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