Please, if we could keep it to legal advice and not devolve into "you don't need no licence" arguments?

I'm wondering what exactly (if anything) is copyrightable or can be patented, trademarked off the monster stat block?

For a good overview of stat blocks:

http://theotherside.timsbrannan.com/2021/03/monstrous-mondays-detailing-universal.html

The base stat block (vs. the fluff text beneath it) is pretty much uncopyrightable. Closest you could probably get is a trademark infringement for using the same layout, fonts, and so forth that constitutes a "trade dress."

Realistically though? You'd have to have way more than that for a realistic trademark infringement (They Sue Regularly would send a cease & desist on principle for even unrealistic claims however, but there's almost nothing you could do about bottomless pockets with a burr up their butt). The simplest mitigation of risk these days for that is just don't tempt fate with your cover art or brand name looking too much like one of the famous D&D covers or using a name that could be abbreviated as D&D (ex. Delves & Demons) or DND (Dangers Near Denmark). Otherwise, don't worry about it because most of those types aren't going to look past the cover, title name unless they have a real reason to (and if they do get a burr up their butt no amount of deviation would have saved you from the C&D letter anyway).

The relevant law is copyright. Whether a stat block format is copyrightable is iffy but leaning to yes in the Common Law nations. The contents, definitely in Common Law nations.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 19, 2024, 04:01:55 PM
The base stat block (vs. the fluff text beneath it) is pretty much uncopyrightable. Closest you could probably get is a trademark infringement for using the same layout, fonts, and so forth that constitutes a "trade dress."

I teach IP Law for a living, this kinda made me wince 

Quote from: S'mon on March 19, 2024, 05:53:55 PM
The relevant law is copyright. Whether a stat block format is copyrightable is iffy but leaning to yes in the Common Law nations. The contents, definitely in Common Law nations.

Format? As in how it's presented? For instance a table?

The contents? As in Move, Morale, etc? What about the values of those?

Is there a solution to this?

Edited to add:

So, given that WotC placed it's SRD under CC By, the format of the stat block is covered too right?

Do I have to use their WHOLE stat block format?

>>Format? As in how it's presented? For instance a table? <<

Yes.

>>The contents? As in Move, Morale, etc? What about the values of those?<<

Taken as a whole. Not individual numbers. A paragraph of text is (c) protected. Individual words & numbers are not.

>>So, given that WotC placed it's SRD under CC By, the format of the stat block is covered too right?<<

Yes, whatever is in the CC licensed material is covered by the license.

>>Do I have to use their WHOLE stat block format?<<

No, you can modify it freely if using the CC license.

Not a lawyer but my understanding is that if you mimic the stat block format of the 5e srd you are fine. If you mimic the format used in the books (with gold box and such) you are on dangerous trade dress grounds.

Quote from: Ruprecht on March 20, 2024, 08:51:11 AM
Not a lawyer but my understanding is that if you mimic the stat block format of the 5e srd you are fine. If you mimic the format used in the books (with gold box and such) you are on dangerous trade dress grounds.

I'm not planing on using the looks on their books, too expensive/hard to read IMHO.

I'm trying to think a way to make a stat block and place it under CC0.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 20, 2024, 12:08:12 PM
I'm trying to think a way to make a stat block and place it under CC0.

The most recent 5E srd statblocks are under Creative Commons license so if you take that as a starting point you should be fine.

Quote from: S'mon on March 20, 2024, 06:30:58 AM

>>The contents? As in Move, Morale, etc? What about the values of those?<<

Taken as a whole. Not individual numbers. A paragraph of text is (c) protected. Individual words & numbers are not.

Do you think using AI to rewrite a paragraph will constitute copyright infringement? The words and paragraph structure would be different, but the meaning would be the same, or nearly.

Kind if like if you were to rewrite a paragraph yourself with thesaurus in hand to change words, and maybe reorganize the paragraph.

Are you writing 5e stuff?

Because if you are writing for Basic/OSR games I'd look into BFRPG, since is is also CC.

Quote from: S'mon on March 19, 2024, 05:55:08 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 19, 2024, 04:01:55 PM
The base stat block (vs. the fluff text beneath it) is pretty much uncopyrightable. Closest you could probably get is a trademark infringement for using the same layout, fonts, and so forth that constitutes a "trade dress."

I teach IP Law for a living, this kinda made me wince 

Really? Care to elaborate?

I've heard that the copyright to a particular arrangement of facts (numbers) is pretty weak because there's little originality in selecting abbreviations/headings and listing numbers next to them. There's only so many ways to list HD, AC, #Att, etc.

I mean, there's still probably some copyright to a bare stat block, but it would be narrow and easily avoided by rearranging or selecting slightly different abbreviations.

Or am I smoking crack?

I've seen dumber shit than a stat block fall under some kind of patent or copyright protection.

Several of my coworkers are beating their heads against a wall because Brand X was allowed to patent the most braindead solution of, "Put a lip on this metal part to block off air."

Quote from: rytrasmi on March 21, 2024, 11:44:00 AM

Quote from: S'mon on March 19, 2024, 05:55:08 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 19, 2024, 04:01:55 PM
The base stat block (vs. the fluff text beneath it) is pretty much uncopyrightable. Closest you could probably get is a trademark infringement for using the same layout, fonts, and so forth that constitutes a "trade dress."

I teach IP Law for a living, this kinda made me wince 

Really? Care to elaborate?

I've heard that the copyright to a particular arrangement of facts (numbers) is pretty weak because there's little originality in selecting abbreviations/headings and listing numbers next to them. There's only so many ways to list HD, AC, #Att, etc.

I mean, there's still probably some copyright to a bare stat block, but it would be narrow and easily avoided by rearranging or selecting slightly different abbreviations.

Or am I smoking crack?

I suspect S'mon is cringing at the thought of trademarking the stat block format (or trying to) -- not at the notion that it's uncopyrightable.

Honestly, I don't think it's possible to get a straight answer until WotC take an OSR dev to court and win or lose. We can say all we want that rules are uncopyrightable and I would agree with that. But will a judge with no prior expertise in RPGs see that the same way when presented with DnD 5E that those kids play, and some game called Lamentations of the Flame Princess with very similar rules and tables? Just slightly different may not be enough.

Of course I don't think WotC see this as a priority so you're potentially safe to have say a Beholder so long as you call it something else and possibly make it look slightly different.