Anyone know what they were referring to when they said they had the "Holy Grail" of RPGs in the works?
Is this it?:
(http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/product_images/full_size/rqelric.jpg)
Nope, that is most definately not it.
Matt from Mongoose said that the "holy grail" IP they are refering to is still under negotiation.
The above is already under license for Mongoose.
My bet is it is either Dune or Middle Earth.
One of the guys that did some work on Dune heard that Mongoose did inquire about the licnese.
Quote from: ConanMKAnyone know what they were referring to when they said they had the "Holy Grail" of RPGs in the works?
Is this it?:
(http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/product_images/full_size/rqelric.jpg)
I'll say this, them getting the Eternal Champions line & Lankhmar are "The Holy Grail" for me. I think one of the areas that D&D dropped the ball was in a real Sword and Sorcery campaign setting...now I've got all the S&S I need. :D
So we've got Lankhmar, Elric, Conan and Solomon Kane, all done with different systems. All praise diversity ;)
So, what's still missing (besides other redundant Howard properties)?
Didn't that Indiana Jones guy find the Holy Grail once?
Maybe we should take Matt literally.
(http://static.flickr.com/121/317144649_87257a186f.jpg)
It pains me to say this, what with the butcher job that is the MRQ Lankhmar cover... but I like the Elric one.
I used to believe the HG is D&D... but then somebody published something or other on rpg.net that cast doubt on that. (Flat out denial by Matt? Can't remember.)
I thought Matt said the "Holy Grail" would be done in MRQ, which would certainly raise some doubts.
The Elric cover is pretty good but I like the modifications made in this thread (http://tavern.zunder.org.uk/tav/viewtopic.php?t=1409&start=15&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=) over at The Tavern.
Quote from: SosthenesSo we've got Lankhmar, Elric, Conan and Solomon Kane, all done with different systems. All praise diversity ;)
So, what's still missing (besides other redundant Howard properties)?
Uh...only Conan and Solomon Kane are Howard.
Elric, Hawkmoon(Moorcock) and Lankhmar(Lieber) all use the same system.
Personally I'd like to see a game based on Imaro(Charles Saunders) and Corum(Moorcock)...then I'd pretty much have my fill of S&S for a long time.
P.S. I don't really consider Solomon Kane S&S...it's more dark pulp(plus Howard's writings in general aren't to my liking...to much bashing of blacks...and yes I know it was a different time but that still doesn't change the fact that I don't want to read it.).
Also there's been rumors about the Conan game being converted to the MRQ rules set as well.
Conan won't be MRQ. The 2nd ed is due out soon, and is still d20 OGL (shame, but there you go). It almost was - but the licence didn't allow for it.
- Q
I'm guessing LotR. That I think is the holy grail of rpgs, I struggle to see anything else fitting that description.
But we'll see in time.
Metal Gear Solid
At least they finally got a fairly decent cover going...
RPGPundit
Quote from: BalbinusI'm guessing LotR. That I think is the holy grail of rpgs, I struggle to see anything else fitting that description.
Harry Potter, maybe - I can see that as being more a holy grail than LOTR. I know that Rowling has said she won't allow an RPG, but maybe that's what the long negotiation is all about. And Mongoose is probably one of the only companies that would have a shot at it. Odds are it's not that, though, of course.
Quote from: RezendevousHarry Potter
Good call. Thats gotta be THE holy grail.
I gotta wonder what Chaosium thinks of that.
doing an Elric game with a BRP system and all . . .
I'm pretty sure Matt said at one point that Lord of the Rings wasn't the Holy Grail.
Quote from: QuireConan won't be MRQ. The 2nd ed is due out soon, and is still d20 OGL (shame, but there you go). It almost was - but the licence didn't allow for it.
A shame? Jeez, why do d20 haters begrudge
anything being d20 or OGL? Why would they want to do Conan 2nd ed. as MRQ, considering their OGL (d20) version has been praised as evoking the Hyborian age almost perfectly, and apparently has sold well, given all the supplements they've pumped out for it? Why mess with success? I mean, it's one thing if they were to do it
in addition to the OGL version, but as a replacement? That would be dumb.
Quote from: GoOrangeI'm pretty sure Matt said at one point that Lord of the Rings wasn't the Holy Grail.
Yeah, plus Mongoose treated Babylon 5 as the star property they acquired back when they were still being hush-hush about it and Conan. They seemed to badly misjudge which of the two properties would be more successful among gamers, with Conan being kinda given short shrift by them. "Meh, yeah, we got Conan, but OMFG GOD CAN YOU BELIEVE WE GOT B5?!?!?!?" was the general attitude they seemed to project (OK, so I'm exaggerating a tad). I get the feeling that when they finally reveal the "Grail," most will be going "umm, what the fuck makes
that the "Grail" of RPG properties?"
Plus yeah, that Elric cover is 10,000 times better than the Lankhmar one. Shame it's gonna be MRQ, though ;)
Quote from: ColonelHardissonI get the feeling that when they finally reveal the "Grail," most will be going "umm, what the fuck makes that the "Grail" of RPG properties?"
Yeah, I don't think there is a single fan out there with high expectations for this, although I am looking forward to the good laugh I'll get when it finally does get announced.
The holy grail can only be Dune, you heretics!
Why? Is there a huge Toto revival going on right now?
I'd cast my vote for Harry Potter or The Matrix.
Pete
Quote from: GoOrangeYeah, I don't think there is a single fan out there with high expectations for this, although I am looking forward to the good laugh I'll get when it finally does get announced.
I remember hearing a story some time back about SJG announcing some huge new license and getting everyone excited about it. There was much annoyance among fans when the license turned out to be Hellboy.
Heh. Hellboy would be a bummer. I hope that whatever the license is it doesn't wind up being a disappointment.
Quote from: SettembriniThe holy grail can only be Dune, you heretics!
This would be cool. Of all the RPG licenses out there, this one would actually come close to a Holy Grail in my book.
Quote from: Elliot WilenI thought Matt said the "Holy Grail" would be done in MRQ, which would certainly raise some doubts.
The Elric cover is pretty good but I like the modifications made in this thread (http://tavern.zunder.org.uk/tav/viewtopic.php?t=1409&start=15&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=) over at The Tavern.
According to Matt, as of yesterday, they have not decided on the system for the "holy grail".
Quote from: Erik BoielleMetal Gear Solid
I don't think so, they already announced that they have a license for that(IIRC). Matt said they are currently in negotiations for the "holy grail" license.
Quote from: SosthenesWhy? Is there a huge Toto revival going on right now?
**APPLAUSE**
Quote from: McrowAccording to Matt, as of yesterday, they have not decided on the system for the "holy grail".
That sounds like a remarkable example of not having one's shit together. They're busting ass to secure a license and they don't even know what the hell they're gonna do with it?
Quote from: jrientsThat sounds like a remarkable example of not having one's shit together. They're busting ass to secure a license and they don't even know what the hell they're gonna do with it?
Yeah, it sounds bad. Crap, if I was going to dish out the kind o cash it would take to get a license for a "holy grail" type of game, I' damn well know exactly what I was doing with it before I contacted the peeps about getting the license. :confused:
Quote from: McrowYeah, it sounds bad. Crap, if I was going to dish out the kind o cash it would take to get a license for a "holy grail" type of game, I' damn well know exactly what I was doing with it before I contacted the peeps about getting the license. :confused:
Actually, it's not as bad as it sounds. I'm guessing they have it narrowed down to two or three systems, but sometimes you have to see all the source material before you decide which one would be the best fit.
Pete
I buy a lot of Mongoose stuff and I like their work but I have to say I hope the "holy grail" is something more original than just another Conan version. I'm a huge fan of Conan but it has been done before. Similarly, the EC license they bought from Chaosium is fine but Chaosium already published a ton of material for Elric and a lesser amount of Corum and Hawkmoon, using a rule system that can easily convert to MRQ, so it isn't like they are breaking entirely new ground. I was more excited about seeing the new Slaine setting since that hadn't been done in a RQ or BRP format before.
Quote from: pspahnActually, it's not as bad as it sounds. I'm guessing they have it narrowed down to two or three systems, but sometimes you have to see all the source material before you decide which one would be the best fit.
But wouldn't the Holy Grail of licensed properties be a known quantity? It's not like they'd be licensing a book no one at Mongoose has read.
Quote from: jrientsBut wouldn't the Holy Grail of licensed properties be a known quantity? It's not like they'd be licensing a book no one at Mongoose has read.
Come on... this
is Mongoose we're talking about here, right? :rolleyes:
What if it's _really_ about the Holy Grail? Considering the amount of gamers already spouting quotes every friggin' session, a Monty Python RPG might actually work ;)
Quote from: SosthenesWhat if it's _really_ about the Holy Grail? Considering the amount of gamers already spouting quotes every friggin' session, a Monty Python RPG might actually work ;)
actually, I'd buy a Monty Python RPG. If for no other reason, I'd buy it for collecting reasons. If done right it could be a fun game.
I'd buy a Monty Python rpg if it was d20.
Quote from: jrientsBut wouldn't the Holy Grail of licensed properties be a known quantity? It's not like they'd be licensing a book no one at Mongoose has read.
There's a whole lot more to a setting than what's published in the books/movies. Take Harry Potter magic for instance--most of what we see is a small glimpse of wand magic with a few fortuitous spells and magical effects appearing when needed, but the writer sees the bigger picture* so you have to see his/her notes to get a full understanding of what magic can and can't do. If you're really making an effort to emulate the novels, you don't want to graft a detailed magic system onto something that's more freeform and vice-versa. I'm not saying this is the case with Mongoose, but I can see where it might be.
Pete
*usually--I think Rowling makes a lot of it up as she goes along
And I'll add that Harry Potter is THE Holy Grail of RPGs. If you want to bring more new people into the hobby, Harry Potter is the only thing that can do it at this point. You not only get instant fandom, you get them young which means they'll be gaming for years to come.
Pete
Quote from: jrientsI'd buy a Monty Python rpg if it was d20.
The Prestige Classes alone would guarantee my pecuniary contribution.
Quote from: jrientsBut wouldn't the Holy Grail of licensed properties be a known quantity? It's not like they'd be licensing a book no one at Mongoose has read.
But the system choice might be a factor in the ongoing talks.
Maybe it
is Harry Potter and Rowling
could be convinced that role playing is a healthy pastime but she still doesn't want her brainchild to be mentioned along that geeky, silly game, D&D (d20, OGL, whatever).
Hmm, would something from Gaiman or Pullman qualify, too?
Or waitaminute, is the Indiana Jones license available again? Speaking of the "Holy Grail"?
Maybe it'll be a Firefly/Serenity game that you can actually play.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Maybe it'll be a Firefly/Serenity game that you can actually play.
I'd be all over that!
I shouldn't be mean. Serenity wasn't unplayable, just...I dunno, seemingly incomplete.
Maybe Mongoose is landing Star Trek? Harry Potter is a taller order, though...huh. This has me curious.
Quote from: pspahnThere's a whole lot more to a setting than what's published in the books/movies. Take Harry Potter magic for instance--most of what we see is a small glimpse of wand magic with a few fortuitous spells and magical effects appearing when needed, but the writer sees the bigger picture* so you have to see his/her notes to get a full understanding of what magic can and can't do. If you're really making an effort to emulate the novels, you don't want to graft a detailed magic system onto something that's more freeform and vice-versa. I'm not saying this is the case with Mongoose, but I can see where it might be.
Pete
*usually--I think Rowling makes a lot of it up as she goes along
While you have a point, I think as a fan I'm primarily interested in a licensed game that does what I see in the
published source material.
And I agree that Harry Potter is the one of the few 'Holy Grail' licenses out there that I can think of. It's been proven that Star Trek, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Marvel, and DC licenses can make money, but it's also obvious that they're not slam dunks. From a strictly business perspective, I'd pursue Naruto or Pokemon before I'd try another Trek game.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!I shouldn't be mean. Serenity wasn't unplayable, just...I dunno, seemingly incomplete.
Well, it wasn't unplayable, but it certainly didn't HELP any, and my players hated it with a passion. Made me change system after one session.
-clash
Quote from: jrientsThat sounds like a remarkable example of not having one's shit together. They're busting ass to secure a license and they don't even know what the hell they're gonna do with it?
Par for the course.
Here's how, according to Matt himself, they acquired the Conan license:
Scene: The Mongoose offices. Matt's pardner is on the phone with some translator.
Pardner: "HEY MATT! Looks like the Conan license is available. Do we want it?"
Matt: "zzzzzz... what? Uh, sure."
Quote from: flyingmiceWell, it wasn't unplayable, but it certainly didn't HELP any, and my players hated it with a passion. Made me change system after one session.
-clash
I got through two. Switched to D6.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!I shouldn't be mean. Serenity wasn't unplayable, just...I dunno, seemingly incomplete.
Maybe Mongoose is landing Star Trek? Harry Potter is a taller order, though...huh. This has me curious.
Mechanically, I think Serenity seems to work fine (I think they're calling their core rules 'Cortex' now), although d2s can be a pain if you don't have dice in that range. Hell no, I ain't flippin' no gorram coin, neither!
But yeah, it's really lacking in 'verse "crunchiness", 'specially an indepth gazeteer.The different ship schematics are nice, tho. Still, I haven't read Out in the Black yet, so maybe it'll address all my issues. :)
Quote from: RezendevousHarry Potter, maybe - I can see that as being more a holy grail than LOTR. I know that Rowling has said she won't allow an RPG, but maybe that's what the long negotiation is all about. And Mongoose is probably one of the only companies that would have a shot at it. Odds are it's not that, though, of course.
Hmm... interesting. I musta missed when Rowling said she wouldn't allow an RPG. Did she give a reason?
Quote from: jrientsWhile you have a point, I think as a fan I'm primarily interested in a licensed game that does what I see in the published source material.
No, I understand that, and that's probably what you'd see in the game, but from a design perspective you have to have the full picture before you start writing. If (using Harry Potter again) you make up a traditional wand-based magic system based on the seven novels and then Rowling comes out with an eighth novel where she reveals that magic actually comes from the demons that dwell inside all wizards, the company loses a lot of credibility through no fault of their own. Again, this is all just hypothetical. I seriously doubt Rowling is going to license Harry Potter as an RPG, but I think it would be a blast.
Pete
I never get it why you need a license for stuff like Serenity. If you're not playing the main actors, what do you get from this universe? It's not like the author really cared about creating a huge, convincing, detailed universe. Wasted money for some pretty pictures... Don't get me wrong, I liked the series a lot (hated Buffy/Angel), but I could run that on-the-fly with about any system thrown at me.
Hmm. Popular TV series... Lost: the RPG? CSI the RPG?
(*shudder*)
Quote from: SosthenesI never get it why you need a license for stuff like Serenity. If you're not playing the main actors, what do you get from this universe? It's not like the author really cared about creating a huge, convincing, detailed universe. Wasted money for some pretty pictures... Don't get me wrong, I liked the series a lot (hated Buffy/Angel), but I could run that on-the-fly with about any system thrown at me.
Hmm. Popular TV series... Lost: the RPG? CSI the RPG?
(*shudder*)
The reason you want the Serenity license is to make money. It's already gone through 5 printings IIRC. Your serial numbers filed off Sixguns & Starships isn't going through any 5 printings...
-clash
Quote from: SosthenesCSI the RPG?
Hmm... does the CSI:Miami supplement come with a Sunglasses Quip feat (http://www.weebls-stuff.com/wab/CSI/)?
Quote from: flyingmiceThe reason you want the Serenity license is to make money. It's already gone through 5 printings IIRC. Your serial numbers filed off Sixguns & Starships isn't going through any 5 printings...
I have this little number at home all about tramp freighters and run-ins with the law. I'm pretty sure it went through multiple printings. If only I could remember the name. Something beginning with a 'T' I think.
Yeah, but that was then.
Not that I see the attraction of most licensed properties, personally.
Quote from: flyingmiceThe reason you want the Serenity license is to make money. It's already gone through 5 printings IIRC. Your serial numbers filed off Sixguns & Starships isn't going through any 5 printings...
I certainly understand why a publisher would want to get that license, but I never understood why so many people would buy it. No other sci-fi RPGs available? On the other hand, there's lots of really creepy Whedon fanboys... I'd rather face ten overweight wannabe Klingons than a couple of Buffy fans in their 40s...
Quote from: Elliot WilenYeah, but that was then.
Yeah, I was just being silly.
QuoteNot that I see the attraction of most licensed properties, personally.
Some days I can barely work up enthusiasm for someone else's campaign world that's been designed from the ground up for roleplaying.
Licenses seem to be a hard sell, because you have to be able to woo the roleplayers who also happen to be into the license. And even if their tastes are wide enough that they would play anything besides D&D, you have to deal with the fact that the average roleplayer only likes a small number of systems. It seems like a tough row to hoe, not a license to print money.
Quote from: SosthenesI certainly understand why a publisher would want to get that license, but I never understood why so many people would buy it. No other sci-fi RPGs available? On the other hand, there's lots of really creepy Whedon fanboys... I'd rather face ten overweight wannabe Klingons than a couple of Buffy fans in their 40s...
W3rd.
In fairness, it helps that I "get" the Klingons. Whereas Buffy: :confused:
I thought Out In The Black was a top notch book.
Tracy Hickman did a great series of chats about adventures in serenity on The Signal:-
http://media.libsyn.com/media/thesignal/Adventures_in_Serenity_compilation.mp3
And you can listen to some gamers play the adventure over skype here:-
http://afterserenity.libsyn.com/index.php?post_category=Out%20in%20the%20Black%20game
Sent me on a western/serentiy kick, I can tell you.
covers they can do...
it's the rest i've had a problem with.
Elric is by no means a holy grail. So my 'vote' would be for LotR, which doesn't inspire me since I think it's a poor license creatively speaking. You could probably argue the same for Dune. Either way it means a rather dull, uninspired game based on a popular license. I just can't get excited about their products anymore, d20 bores me rigid. But mayhap they'll do something completely different.
There are licenses, and then there are licenses. Serenity was money in the bank, because the fan boys will buy anything with Firefly or Serenity on the cover. Many of the folks that bought this had likely never seen an RPG before. Not that it doesn't work OK, it's just not inspiring. The system is clunky and not well suited to the setting, IMO, but it doesn't have to be.
-clash
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!I got through two. Switched to D6.
I got through 5 somehow. Switched to beer.
I don't think this qualifies as Holy Grail, but can be added to the speculation:
Stargate
AEG lost their license. SG1 is wrapping up, Atltantis is going strong, and a new series is about to start.
Quote from: Elliot WilenYeah, but that was then.
Not that I see the attraction of most licensed properties, personally.
Eh. If it hadn't been for TNE and the death of GDW, Traveller might still be the #2 market share holder.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityW3rd.
In fairness, it helps that I "get" the Klingons. Whereas Buffy: :confused:
Whereas I like BOTH.
Of course in my case, it could just be that I really like redheads, Alyson Hannigan, Willow....
Would Mongoose possibly be talking about DOCTOR WHO??
- Ed C.
Quote from: GoOrangeI got through 5 somehow. Switched to beer.
Got through zero, switched to sniffing glue.
Wha?
Quote from: flyingmiceSerenity was money in the bank, because the fan boys will buy anything with Firefly or Serenity on the cover. Many of the folks that bought this had likely never seen an RPG before.-clash
QFT.
I think the most successful (successful based on sales) licensed rpgs are ones that also appeal to the non-gamer fan/collector base. Have lots of pretty pictures/non-stat based descriptions/episode recaps...the fans/collectors will eat dat up.
I used to be really into licensed RPGs(Star Wars/Trek/Farscape/etc.) but around the time Farscape released and I bought it and was reading through it, I began to realize, uh, that this book contained a lot of non-mechanics based info that I could just as easily glean from reading Fan/Official web sites.
It was annoying that a fair portion of the book was dedicated to episode synopses. I was already familiar with those...I want more mechanics crunch...dammit! Although I'm sure another segment was lovin' those episode blurbs...
Rich
Quote from: rcsampleQFT.
I think the most successful (successful based on sales) licensed rpgs are ones that also appeal to the non-gamer fan/collector base. Have lots of pretty pictures/non-stat based descriptions/episode recaps...the fans/collectors will eat dat up.
I used to be really into licensed RPGs(Star Wars/Trek/Farscape/etc.) but around the time Farscape released and I bought it and was reading through it, I began to realize, uh, that this book contained a lot of non-mechanics based info that I could just as easily glean from reading Fan/Official web sites.
It was annoying that a fair portion of the book was dedicated to episode synopses. I was already familiar with those...I want more mechanics crunch...dammit! Although I'm sure another segment was lovin' those episode blurbs...
Rich
Eh. The most successful licensed RPG I know of to date was WEG Star Wars, and that only really has the broadest overview of the setting, and a shortlist of a few of the onscreen races.
By contrast, Guardians of Order drove themselves to bankruptcy in part by abandoning what had been a successful series of licensed anime RPGs by skimping way, way too much on the RPG side of their books, to the extent that their last releases were nothing more than crappy episode guides with a page or too of hastily scribble stats for one of the main characters in the back.
Well, to put it simple.
LOTR + d20 = I am buing up to 50$
Harry Potter + d20 = I am buing up to say 60$
Anything else I am not interested very much, I have about 10 game systems I want to learn and try right now. So I will accept only things, I can play without too much headache of rules reading.
Quote from: J ArcaneEh. The most successful licensed RPG I know of to date was WEG Star Wars, and that only really has the broadest overview of the setting, and a shortlist of a few of the onscreen races.
By contrast, Guardians of Order drove themselves to bankruptcy in part by abandoning what had been a successful series of licensed anime RPGs by skimping way, way too much on the RPG side of their books, to the extent that their last releases were nothing more than crappy episode guides with a page or too of hastily scribble stats for one of the main characters in the back.
While I dont disagree with that. Part of the reason the books were more or less episode guides with a page or two rpg material. Is the way stuff like that is licensed. And the red tape nessisary to get the licensing. I cant explain it very well. The guy with the black dude shooting lightning from his eyes as an avatar. (Sorry if your reading this I dont remember your name) Explained it once a while back. He could obviously explain it better than I.
You mean Andy K.
Quote from: Elliot WilenYou mean Andy K.
Yup, Thats the dude. :win: Thanks
Quote from: J ArcaneBy contrast, Guardians of Order drove themselves to bankruptcy in part by abandoning what had been a successful series of licensed anime RPGs by skimping way, way too much on the RPG side of their books, to the extent that their last releases were nothing more than crappy episode guides with a page or too of hastily scribble stats for one of the main characters in the back.
Yeah, I think there's a sweet spot/balance that you need in order to interest both customer segments (fanboys/collectors and RPGers). Not that you can't lean in favor of one or the other...too far tho and Farscape's your uncle...
Another niggle I have with licensed RPGs...pick the right time frame. Don't advertise World War II: The Big Red One RPG and tell me the only rules/setting-material you have in the book relates to playing during 1930-1935...(re: The Babylon Project RPG...I'm lookin' at you!)
Quote from: rcsampleAnother niggle I have with licensed RPGs...pick the right time frame. Don't advertise World War II: The Big Red One RPG and tell me the only rules/setting-material you have in the book relates to playing during 1930-1935...(re: The Babylon Project RPG...I'm lookin' at you!)
I think that's what irks me the most about most licensed settings. I don't need a recap of the movies/books. I want to know what my character can do now that Sauron has been defeated/the Emperor is dead/the war between the Shadows and Vorlons is over.
Pete
Here's something that nobody has thought of. D&D. That's right. What if the "holy grail" is the most popular, highest earning, fantasy RPG ever. What else could it possibly be? What has trumped D&D in terms of staying power and sales in RPGs? That's right. Nothing.
Now, that makes sense, though with the DI coming around the corner it's hard to say for certain (that said, isn't the biggest selling point of the digital distribution model for publishers the evergreen status of products?). And what about Star Wars Saga? Surely that will be the new foundation of D&D, right? Right? Or will it?
Here's something to chew on -- the rights for the "holy grail" have been in negotiation for over a year now. And there have been (according to Matt in numerous threads) papers awaiting a signature several times now. There is obviously some kind of time dependent element that's keeping things on hold.
I wonder what that might be. :D
Note also that WotC is pretty firmly on record as saying that they won't be publishing a new edition of D&D any time soon. In fact, a while back, there were some cryptic messages on the ENWorld forums that went out of the way to note that WotC will not be publishing a new edition of D&D this year.
Hmm. . . perhaps somebody else will?
All speculation, of course, though it explains a lot of the cryptic quotes from Mongoose and WotC. As well as the cancellation of Paizo's contract to publish Dungeon and Dragon. And a lot of other stuff, too.
Eh. The likelihood of that happening is basically fucking nil, and even if it did, it would be a source of not so much excitement, as absolute horror.
Then I would no longer have grounds to attack people for using the McDonald's analogy, because Mongoose's shitty, slapdash approach to product design and editing is the closest this hobby has to a REAL analogue for the fast food business method, that and all those shitty vanity lables on RPGnow pumping out crappy 10-page D20 "supplements" for $10 a pop.
There's no reason to go out of house with the game however, as they're making plenty of money in house, whereas farming it out to Mongoose runs the risk of destroying brand image and costing them more money to boot. Which fucks with book sales, AND with the potential licensing value of the title, and with two major titles from Atari making so much money as to keep that failing company afloat and give Hasbro a mountain in royalties, it's just a lose lose situation all around.
Quote from: J ArcaneEh. The likelihood of that happening is basically fucking nil. . .
Eh, it's better than nil. Probably not much better, though better all the same.
Quote. . . it would be a source of not so much excitement, as absolute horror.
I recall when the reaction to WotC acquiring TSR was very much the same -- and I think that most people will agree this turned out okay ;)
Elric....yeah! Using Runequest system..............Arrrgh....:(
Quote from: JakeThunderElric....yeah! Using Runequest system..............Arrrgh....:(
It's already been through 5 editions under the BRP system, why not a 6th?
Quote from: J ArcaneIt's already been through 5 editions under the BRP system, why not a 6th?
Matt long ago confirmed that they were negotiating for the rights to Elric. It is not the holy grail. The "holy grail" is something that can not be named until such time as papers are inked, apparently.
Quote from: jdrakehMatt long ago confirmed that they were negotiating for the rights to Elric. It is not the holy grail. The "holy grail" is something that can not be named until such time as papers are inked, apparently.
I was just responding to the newbie's gripe about it being RQ system. It's not like it would really be a change.
As I said upthread, I too used to think it was D&D. But somebody posted something on rpg.net that made that look extremely unlikely. What the hell was it? Matt denying it outright? Can't remember.
If it were to happen, which would presumably be shortly after 4E, then yeah, that would indeed be a very. Very. Very. Bad Thing.
Also, not necessarily a good thing for Mongoose, either. Not in the short term, maybe not even in the middle term. Depending on backward compatibility of rules, $$$ paid to WOTC and a whole bunch of unknowns.
But I digress speculatively. :D
Quote from: ElectroKittyHmm... interesting. I musta missed when Rowling said she wouldn't allow an RPG. Did she give a reason?
My understanding is that Rowling really, really doesn't like the idea of other people playing in her sandbox or producing additional "canon" for it, and an RPG would pretty much necessitate that.
On the other hand, once the last book is out, Rowling might well change her mind - once she's finished with the setting she might be more willing to let other people tinker with it.
Personally, for the term 'Holy Grail' to hold any merit and not merely be a piece of publisher hyperbole (a real possibility here), I think the new license would have to be either D&D (which I find unlikely and abhorrent) or a property that has never appeared in RPG form. Doctor Who, Star Wars, Star Trek, Marvel, DC, Indiana Jones, and Lords of the Rings don't strike me as Holy Grails because I can already buy at least two RPGs for each. The Matrix might be someone else's idea of a Holy Grail license, but how hot is that property in the Year of Our Lord 2007?
Well, IIRC, last year right around Gencon there was a rumor flying around that Mongoose was going announce that they were buying the rights to D&D and were going to realease 4th Ed.
Obviously that never happened, but maybe there is some truth to it.
Unlikely, with what Rowling has said in the past, but maybe Harry Potter?
-O
I suppose I should come clean... We've been negotiating the rights to a MRP version of Cold Space. It's been a hard negotiation - Matt wants the world on a platter y'know - but we're all done except some final minor details - he thinks a cow and a pig should be equivalent, but I'm holding on for a pig and three chickens. Expect an announcement on April 1 next year.
-clash
For the slow on the uptake, this is a joke... :O
Quote from: J ArcaneIt's already been through 5 editions under the BRP system, why not a 6th?
No kidding. I have a soft spot in my cold, hard heart for the 1st Ed. of Stormbringer in it's sleek, sexy thin box. Using this along with the was it the first companion or second that had the "dungeon" that included a map with an X on it. The X had an arrow pointing to it with a note from the scenario author stating: "This is the farthest point any group has ever made it into the dungeon."
Good times.
Although, with 5 editions of Elric/Stormbringer already out, you would maybe think, the market might be saturated with Elric RPGs? Nah.
Is the new Mongoose Runequest basically a variation of BRP?
Quote from: jrientsPersonally, for the term 'Holy Grail' to hold any merit and not merely be a piece of publisher hyperbole (a real possibility here), I think the new license would have to be either D&D (which I find unlikely and abhorrent) or a property that has never appeared in RPG form. Doctor Who, Star Wars, Star Trek, Marvel, DC, Indiana Jones, and Lords of the Rings don't strike me as Holy Grails because I can already buy at least two RPGs for each. The Matrix might be someone else's idea of a Holy Grail license, but how hot is that property in the Year of Our Lord 2007?
I agree with all of the above. My other thought (refuted by Matt) was that the "holy grail" is just a marketing device (i.e., just a way to keep Mongoose in the public eye where their then upcoming IP acquisitions were concerned). After all, since the initial announcement, they've acquired and/or published several ostensibly "hot" properties.
Quote from: rcsampleIs the new Mongoose Runequest basically a variation of BRP?
Yes, but a lot of BRP fans generally and old RQ fans specifically consider it an uglification. I haven't looked at it too closely myself in spite of there being an SRD, but I gather it added some sort of Feat-like mechanisms, which I'd certainly see as a bit of an uglification.
If it's not Potter then the Mongoose comments are pure hyperbole.
"Holy Grail" implies a much sought after, near-mythically elusive object of enormous inherent value. The only other two IP's that satisfy that kind of worth are Star Wars and LotR, and they've both been licensed twice each, rendering the whole 'unobtainable' idea moot.
As far as I'm aware Rowling is amenable to the idea of a Potter game, she just doesn't want anything released until she's done with writing the story. Once the final book is published (this year? next?) then she'll be less proprietorial about the setting and characters.
At least that's how I understand it. To be honest I find the idea of HP: The RPG to be incredibly underwhelming, but then again I wouldn't be the target audience. A shiny, new, thoroughly researched Doctor Who game on the other hand would have me foaming at the mouth with expectation, but there's no way I can see that happening any time soon.
Quote from: DrewOnce the final book is published (this year? next?)
What rock are you living under? Next *month*.
Quote from: ElectroKittyWhat rock are you living under? Next *month*.
The non-Potter fandom rock. There's billions of us under here, you know.
That and I've just spent the last couple of weeks laid up in hospital. When I was discharged earlier I had to check with friends that we still had the same Prime Minister. :deflated:
:lol:
I take it you haven't been anywhere near a bookstore in the last 3 months? I mean, it's kinda hard to miss the advertising...
Quote from: ElectroKittyI take it you haven't been anywhere near a bookstore in the last 3 months? I mean, it's kinda hard to miss the advertising...
Nope. I'm more of a library person these days. Maybe the advertising occupies some kind of memetic blind spot I have. Regardless, I haven't noticed it. At all.
So well, when did Mongoose give some official word on WHAT the "holy grail" acutally is? Any idea?
My wife guesses Doctor Who.
Has fingers crossed for a Thundar the barbarian RPG. :hmm: Probably not even close to the right answer. But a fella can dream cant he!:p
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!My wife guesses Doctor Who.
The only way I would be at all excited about this is if it turned out that Torson and Marsh were involved, and it was going to be the new edition of Time Lord they were trying to get approval from the BBC for.
Otherwise I wouldn't trust Mongoose with it just on principle, nor do I think it would be a good fit for D20. BRP/RQ maybe, but I wouldn't trust them there just based on how half-assed the RQ books apparently were.
Quote from: RezendevousHarry Potter, maybe - I can see that as being more a holy grail than LOTR. I know that Rowling has said she won't allow an RPG, but maybe that's what the long negotiation is all about. And Mongoose is probably one of the only companies that would have a shot at it. Odds are it's not that, though, of course.
Erik's correct, that is a better holy grail than I had thought of.
I wouldn't play it, but then I don't really get why adults are reading children's books.
What? I'm elitist, sue me.
Quote from: BalbinusI wouldn't play it, but then I don't really get why adults are reading children's books.
What? I'm elitist, sue me.
The HP novels are heads and shoulders above most "adult" novels. Better grammar, better characters, more interesting dialog, stronger plot...
Quote from: RoninHas fingers crossed for a Thundar the barbarian RPG. :hmm: Probably not even close to the right answer. But a fella can dream cant he!:p
Your dreams are answered...if you didn't know already:
Under the Broken Moon, the [unauthorized] Thundar the Barbarian RPG (http://www.rpglibrary.org/settings/thundarr/)
Quote from: Elliot WilenYour dreams are answered...if you didn't know already:
Under the Broken Moon, the [unauthorized] Thundar the Barbarian RPG (http://www.rpglibrary.org/settings/thundarr/)
Ya I've seen that before. I just would like to see something more official. And as much as I do like risus, and over the edge freeform. With that I think I would rather have something, more crunchy in milk.
Quote from: BalbinusErik's correct, that is a better holy grail than I had thought of.
I wouldn't play it, but then I don't really get why adults are reading children's books.
What? I'm elitist, sue me.
The Hobbit is a children's book too, but adults read it, and rightly so. If the books are good, it doesn't matter who they're written for.
Quote from: RezendevousThe Hobbit is a children's book too, but adults read it, and rightly so. If the books are good, it doesn't matter who they're written for.
A fair point actually, if the Harry Potter books were any good I'd probably have thought of it myself.
That said, the Hobbit is one of very few exceptions, as a rule children's books are for children. Adults generally are capable of taking on a bit more by way of character and plot.
Well, adults who enjoy reading anyway.
Have you read the D'Aulaire mythology books, Balb? Especially Norse Gods & Giants?
Hm, time for an off-topic thread. EDIT: No make that RPG-related.
Quote from: Mcrowactually, I'd buy a Monty Python RPG. If for no other reason, I'd buy it for collecting reasons. If done right it could be a fun game.
no problem...here it is (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/risus.htm)...and it's
FREE. :D
waggishness aside, i'd buy a
'Sourcebook' for the Python middle ages in a heartbeat.
Personally, the only license I can imagine that wouldn't be total exaggeration to call the "holy grail" of gaming licenses would be Harry Potter. If it turns out to be anything else, I'm fairly certain that I'd judge their claim of holy grail to be bullshit.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditPersonally, the only license I can imagine that wouldn't be total exaggeration to call the "holy grail" of gaming licenses would be Harry Potter. If it turns out to be anything else, I'm fairly certain that I'd judge their claim of holy grail to be bullshit.
RPGPundit
You make a good point. I understand trying to hype your products but if they promise the Holy Grail and deliver something weak then they have lost all credibility in my book.
I hit the Mongoose forums a lot and I just checked the "What Should Mongoose Publish Next" thread. There were quite a few suggestions, many of which have been mentioned here, and some new ones (Malazan, Kane, Predator v. Alien v. Terminator - wtf) but oddly enough Harry Potter was never mentioned. Either no one on the board thought of it or they figured it wasn't possible.
Quote from: GrimjackEither no one on the board thought of it or they figured it wasn't possible.
Or they didn't care about it. It might be an indicator as to the market crossover (I personally know only one or two Potter fans with an interest in RPGs, though I know a
lot of Potter fans).
Quote from: ElectroKittyThe HP novels are heads and shoulders above most "adult" novels. Better grammar, better characters, more interesting dialog, stronger plot...
Please stop. The HP books are an entertaining read, but great writing they are not--cardboard characters, formulaic plots, and deus ex machina of the worst kind. But, the setting itself is very evocative.
Pete
Quote from: ElectroKittyThe HP novels are heads and shoulders above most "adult" novels. Better grammar, better characters, more interesting dialog, stronger plot...
With respect, you're reading the wrong adult novels.
And incidentally, I don't just read highbrow literature and the like, I love the pulps, I love the holy trinity of hardboiled (Chandler, Hammett and Spillane), I read crime fiction and sf as well.
But the fact is the HP novels are poorly characterised and weakly written, if they compare well to other stuff you're reading then you really are reading some poor stuff and there is far better out there.
Quote from: Elliot WilenHave you read the D'Aulaire mythology books, Balb? Especially Norse Gods & Giants?
Hm, time for an off-topic thread. EDIT: No make that RPG-related.
No, are they still worth it given I missed them as a kid? Few childrens books, even great ones, merit reading as an adult sadly so if you miss them you miss them.
The Once and Future King is probably another of those exceptions incidentally.
Quote from: BalbinusWith respect, you're reading the wrong adult novels.
And incidentally, I don't just read highbrow literature and the like, I love the pulps, I love the holy trinity of hardboiled (Chandler, Hammett and Spillane), I read crime fiction and sf as well.
But the fact is the HP novels are poorly characterised and weakly written, if they compare well to other stuff you're reading then you really are reading some poor stuff and there is far better out there.
Hm.
Actually, I'm being a bit of a dick on this issue. Sorry Electrokitty, I've no business crapping on books you like just because I don't.
Quote from: RoninHas fingers crossed for a Thundar the barbarian RPG.
That would be 1st edition
Gamma World. :D Seriously!
Bythe way, I started skimming after a bit, so I may have missed something. Given Mongoose's ongoing track record, has anyone considered that the "holy grail" might be the Lovecraftian Mythos?
!i!
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaThat would be 1st edition Gamma World. :D Seriously!
Bythe way, I started skimming after a bit, so I may have missed something. Given Mongoose's ongoing track record, has anyone considered that the "holy grail" might be the Lovecraftian Mythos?
!i!
What, exactly, would Chaosium be left with at this point? Wouldn't they pretty much have to close up shop without Cthulhu?
Quote from: J ArcaneWhat, exactly, would Chaosium be left with at this point? Wouldn't they pretty much have to close up shop without Cthulhu?
Hey, Mongoose hasn't exactly been asking politely for anything from Chaosium thus far. Isn't there some difference of opinion who holds the rights to the Mythos anyway?
!i!
Chaosium is left with Cthulhu, setting-wise, and the Chaosium Role Playing System (or whatever they're calling what used to be referred to as Deluxe BRP) as a player in the generic system game. CRPS isn't a very auspicious acronym, so let us hope I'm mistaken on that; nevertheless it sounds very good in principle and it's generated a lot of enthusiasm among fans of BRP, many of whom rejected Mongoose's take on the system.
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaHey, Mongoose hasn't exactly been asking politely for anything from Chaosium thus far. Isn't there some difference of opinion who holds the rights to the Mythos anyway?
!i!
Nonetheless, I suspect that if Mongoose went ahead and made such a game without the involvement of either Chaosium, or Arham House, we may well see action taken.
I'm going to go into wishful thinking mode here...
Naruto? I don't follow it, but I know about 30 people locally who'd play.
Heroes? Less grail, but so awesome.
Code Geass? Okay, now I'm just being stupid... but this is wishful thinking.
... Final Fantasy?
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke... Final Fantasy?
Interesting... but which one?
My vote would be for XII, but that's probably because I'm playing it at the moment.
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaHey, Mongoose hasn't exactly been asking politely for anything from Chaosium thus far. Isn't there some difference of opinion who holds the rights to the Mythos anyway?
!i!
Robin Laws'
Esoterrorists game is going to have a Cthulhu supplement, written by Kenneth Hite, later this year. Though I don't know any of the details regarding the licensing and all that.
I'm probably being paranoid, but I can't help but think that all this "Holy Grail" speculation is a kind of ad hoc market research done by Mongoose to see what the fans really want. They may well have asked "If you can have a licensed game of any setting you want, what would it be?" Not that rampant speculation isn't fun though!
And for the record, the only Holy Grail in my book would be a Middle Earth setting.
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaHey, Mongoose hasn't exactly been asking politely for anything from Chaosium thus far.
I'm no Mongoose apologist, but I don't think this is exactly fair.
The RuneQuest licence was acquired from Issaries - nothing to do with Chaosium.
Matt Sprange directly approached Chaosium and asked about the possibility of acquiring the Eternal Champion licence, to which the response was (apparently) "for $x, you can have it", whereupon the deal was thrashed out not just with Chaosium, but also with Moorcock via his agent.
It all seems rather civil, as far as I can make out.
As for the fabled 'holy grail', I've seen Matt Sprange deny online a lot of suggestions (I vaguely recall him even saying it's not Middle Earth, but I may have dreamed that). I've never seen him deny Dungeons & Dragons.
'Holy grail' implies a sure-fire RPG hit. It doesn't necessarily imply a licence that hasn't been done before. I would think that only Middle Earth, Star Wars, and D&D qualify. Harry Potter is a very interesting suggestion, and I'm sure would sell well, but for something that covers so many pages, it would seem to have little room to actually role-play in. Star Wars is well sewn-up. The Tolkein Estate appears to be very resistant to any games that take in all of Middle-Earth, rather than a specific LotR (movie-based) licence - maybe that's why the negotiations are so protracted.
And then again, maybe they're drawn out because the 'holy grail' is _THE_ RPG. It's difficult to imagine WotC licensing D&D, but if 'holy grail' is taken at face value, it's the best candidate.
If nothing else, the claim still has us pondering, even after all this time.
- Q
QuoteThe Tolkein Estate appears to be very resistant to any games that take in all of Middle-Earth, rather than a specific LotR (movie-based) licence - maybe that's why the negotiations are so protracted.
Well, it's trickier than that, it seems. Because the rights to the whole body of Tolkien's work on Middle-Earth are divided. Tolkein Enterprises holds the rights to merchandising based on the main books (LotR and the Hobbit), while the Tolkien Estate has everything else, like the Silmarillion and the histories.
So to get the whole body of the works, you'd have to negotiate with two different companies. Plus, Christopher Tolkein, who controls the Tolkein Estate, is really, really protective of his father's works.
Supposedly Games Workshop was in talks to actually start including stuff from the preipheral works in the miniatures game, but I don't know if they ever succeeded.
Hey, my wife's other guess was Pirates of the Caribbean.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Hey, my wife's other guess was Pirates of the Caribbean.
Normally I wouldn't have though there was enough of a setting to go on there, but the third movie does seem to have a more detailed implied setting than just "historical Carribean + zombie pirates".
Though I really kinda like the latter approach better.
Quote from: J ArcaneNormally I wouldn't have though there was enough of a setting to go on there, but the third movie does seem to have a more detailed implied setting than just "historical Carribean + zombie pirates".
Though I really kinda like the latter approach better.
Sao Feng,
ahoy.
I wouldn't have described Middle Earth as the "holy grail" of gaming. There have been Middle Earth roleplaying games in the past, and none of them have been wildly successful. That's not to say that the property couldn't be made very successful with the right company, but it isn't really a "holy grail".
IMO, in terms of being an instant success, it would have to be Harry Potter. A Potterverse RPG would sell like hotcakes, regardless of whether it was any good. But I think a Potter RPG would be very, very unlikely.
Quote from: Tyberious FunkI wouldn't have described Middle Earth as the "holy grail" of gaming. There have been Middle Earth roleplaying games in the past, and none of them have been wildly successful.
Yeah, I was rather thinking that Middle Earth might be more of a Bad Penny or Golden Handcuffs than a Holy Grail. In fact, for all the hype they may generate, I'm ever increasingly of the opinion that licensed properties -- especially the really big names -- are more of a liability than a coup.
!i!
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaYeah, I was rather thinking that Middle Earth might be more of a Bad Penny or Golden Handcuffs than a Holy Grail. In fact, for all the hype they may generate, I'm ever increasingly of the opinion that licensed properties -- especially the really big names -- are more of a liability than a coup.
!i!
So an existing big name RPG then?
Maybe they got publication of Traveller5? Like they did with ParanoiaXP?
Quote from: J ArcaneSo an existing big name RPG then?
Maybe they got publication of Traveller5? Like they did with ParanoiaXP?
That would make me both happy and sad. :) = :(
!i!
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaYeah, I was rather thinking that Middle Earth might be more of a Bad Penny or Golden Handcuffs than a Holy Grail. In fact, for all the hype they may generate, I'm ever increasingly of the opinion that licensed properties -- especially the really big names -- are more of a liability than a coup.
It's a funny industry. By all accounts, Serenity was a
massive seller, and that is despite the fact that the system seems to be universally regarded as "Meh". The TV series was cancelled mid-way through the first season and the movie was considered a box-office flop. On the other hand, Lord of the Rings was a massive, massive box office success... but how did the Decipher RPG fare?
Quote from: Tyberious FunkIt's a funny industry. By all accounts, Serenity was a massive seller, and that is despite the fact that the system seems to be universally regarded as "Meh". The TV series was cancelled mid-way through the first season and the movie was considered a box-office flop. On the other hand, Lord of the Rings was a massive, massive box office success... but how did the Decipher RPG fare?
Which proves that if you want to really judge how well an RPG license is going to do, you have to judge:
1. How much of the fandom of the license is proportionately geeky.
2. How intense they are as fanatics.
So Serenity was the perfect storm: the fans are unbelievably fanatical; and a huge proportion of that fandom was already hardcore geekiness-inclined.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditSo Serenity was the perfect storm: the fans are unbelievably fanatical; and a huge proportion of that fandom was already hardcore geekiness-inclined.
It didn't hurt that the cast of characters seemed to have been cribbed from a
Traveller campaign. It was an RPG waiting to happen.
!i!
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaThat would make me both happy and sad. :) = :(
!i!
I'm still unsure about T5 as it is. I've heard very mixed reports as to the quality of T4, especially as regards erratta and omissions and such, and handing it's sequal to a company infamous for it's less than stellar editing, well . . .
Yeah I can see your trepidation.
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaIt didn't hurt that the cast of characters seemed to have been cribbed from a Traveller campaign. It was an RPG waiting to happen.
!i!
The flipside to that argument is that a number of perfectly adequate games already existed for playing in the Serenity/Firefly universe.
I would tentatively suggest that Serenity was a very successful publication, but not a very successful RPG. It seems that quite a large percentage of the sales seem to have come from fans of the series rather than roleplayers.
It's a shame, in a way. MWP presumably made plenty of money from the venture (and good luck to them). But if it had been a better
RPG, I think the game would have greater longevity and with that, more supplements to build upon the extended 'verse. Instead, it will probably be remembered as a "blip" on the roleplaying scene and consigned to be little more than a collectible for serious Browncoats.
Quote from: RPGPunditWhich proves that if you want to really judge how well an RPG license is going to do, you have to judge:
1. How much of the fandom of the license is proportionately geeky.
2. How intense they are as fanatics.
...
Of course, you also need a company that is interested in taking the game seriously.
There is no reason why a 'Lord of the Rings' RPG couldn't have been huge, especially if it had been pushed while the movies were still coming out. Long before the movies, in the 1980s, ICE's 'Middle-earth Roleplaying' was the
second most successful FRPG in the world (and even more popular than D&D in some places, like Sweden).
Decipher produced a rushed product, and then failed utterly to support it. Their 'LotR' rpg was perhaps the most incompetently run license of all time.
Quote from: QuireAnd then again, maybe they're drawn out because the 'holy grail' is _THE_ RPG. It's difficult to imagine WotC licensing D&D, but if 'holy grail' is taken at face value, it's the best candidate.
The thing which stops me from believing this argument is that I'm sure that the "Holy Grail" is meant to be a setting for RQ - certainly, that's the context where I first saw Sprange talking about it.
There's no point licensing D&D if you're not going to use the system. And while you could make a sourcebook for running one of the D&D settings under the RQ system, that hardly qualifies as a holy grail. Just look at the "favourite setting" thread: while heaps of people love D&D, there's really no consensus as to which setting is "best".
T5 is being written entirely by Marc Miller and his apostles. Maybe Mongoose is on tap to publish it, but I'd expect Steve Jackson to take a crack at it first. I've heard that SJG's second biggest seller after Munchkin is GURPS Traveller. Besides, I doubt Miller would go to a UK company to publish anything. And as much as I dig Trav, I don't think any sane person would call it a Holy Grail. Steve Jackson and several other parties are already producing Traveller material.
I'm thinking it's going to be something like "Brisco County Jr."
I don't know Matt well enough to accurately guess what one man's personal Holy Grail is.
Who knows, maybe he has read Ursula K. Le Guin's Earthsea saga one thousand and one times.
Alien Vs. Predator?
Tales from the City, the RPG.
Laugh while you can.
Quote from: AkrasiaOf course, you also need a company that is interested in taking the game seriously.
There is no reason why a 'Lord of the Rings' RPG couldn't have been huge, especially if it had been pushed while the movies were still coming out. Long before the movies, in the 1980s, ICE's 'Middle-earth Roleplaying' was the second most successful FRPG in the world (and even more popular than D&D in some places, like Sweden).
Decipher produced a rushed product, and then failed utterly to support it. Their 'LotR' rpg was perhaps the most incompetently run license of all time.
You're absolutely right; they DID fail to support it. The situation was odd. I mean, they barely advertised the game, yet it still sold extremely well (if I remember correctly). But..! They quickly cancel the game because the CODA system LotR just didn't sell as well as the CCG when it came out (how could it?), so they decided to focus all their energies on the card game.
I always thought that was a mistake. Even though card games tend to sell better than RPGs, I have this nagging suspicion that while a LotR CCG sold better than the RPG at the time of the movies, a LotR RPG would have enjoyed more LONG-TERM success when memories of the movie would fade.
CODA LotR was a pretty book, but was organized badly. It was treated like a coffee table book rather than a game, and that was a huge mistake. Either d20 or the system used for WFRP 2e would have been a good fit for the system, I think. Of course, the CODA system wasn't bad either. It just needed some more work. This game could have been big, but Decipher missed the boat on this one. They were so close. :(
Quote from: WarthurThe thing which stops me from believing this argument is that I'm sure that the "Holy Grail" is meant to be a setting for RQ - certainly, that's the context where I first saw Sprange talking about it.
Hmm - you've got a good point there, Warthur.
This from Sprange on RPG.net, 13th June:
Originally Posted by vivsavage
Can you at least tell us whether this Holy Grail license will be a RuneQuest or d20-based OGL game? Umm, no, not really
We haven't made any decisions about that yet, and there are arguments for both RQ and D20. However, we'll likely take the third option.
Which is...very intriguing.
- Q
Capitol Critters (http://www.wingnuttoons.com/CapitolCritters.html).
Thinking more about it...maybe it is Dune, after all.
It qualifies as a 'holy grail' in terms of something that's been seen or owned from time-to-time, but has always slipped away... :)
This from 'Matthew' (Colville? Grau?) in the same thread:
The Herbert estate wanted more for the license from WotC than they wanted from Last Unicorn. For Last Unicorn, $75k is enough to ensure the property's going to be your highest priority. For WotC, charging so much that you guarantee they're going to make it priority #1 means charging a LOT more than 75 grand.
If I were to bet, I'd bet it was Dune. Because the Mongoose guys contacted us after WotC backed away from the table, asking for Brian Herbert's contact info.
The toys and games license for Harry Potter, btw, is already with Hasbro - Rowling, however, is reportedly very against the idea of an RPG. "RPGS rot kids brains," according to her. Maybe she and Uncle Ronnie could get together?
- Q
The Flumps (http://www.thechestnut.com/flumps.htm).
Quote from: QuireRowling, however, is reportedly very against the idea of an RPG. "RPGS rot kids brains, according to her."
Can anyone point to a quote or source for this belief? I've heard it before but I've never seen anything said by Rowling or from someone who had actually spoken with her people on the matter.
Quote from: QuireThis from Sprange on RPG.net, 13th June:
Originally Posted by vivsavage
Can you at least tell us whether this Holy Grail license will be a RuneQuest or d20-based OGL game?
Umm, no, not really
We haven't made any decisions about that yet, and there are arguments for both RQ and D20. However, we'll likely take the third option.
Which is...very intriguing.
It sounds to me like we're looking at a property which both RQ and D20 will "fit", but which would merit its own system.
To my mind, this fits Harry Potter more than the other suggestions so far: I can't see a good reason to brew up a brand new system for, say, Dune, but I can see a good reason to come up with a system for Potter which is simpler than RQ or D20.
Quote from: NicephorusCan anyone point to a quote or source for this belief? I've heard it before but I've never seen anything said by Rowling or from someone who had actually spoken with her people on the matter.
In this instance, the source is Last Unicorn's Matthew Colville, quoting WotC's Cindi Rice, quoting Rowling.
It is mentioned over three or so posts across a couple of pages in this thread (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=338302&page=8).
Hearsay, chinese whispers, disclaimer, internet, etc.
- Q
Quote from: jrientsT5 is being written entirely by Marc Miller and his apostles. Maybe Mongoose is on tap to publish it, but I'd expect Steve Jackson to take a crack at it first. I've heard that SJG's second biggest seller after Munchkin is GURPS Traveller. Besides, I doubt Miller would go to a UK company to publish anything. And as much as I dig Trav, I don't think any sane person would call it a Holy Grail. Steve Jackson and several other parties are already producing Traveller material.
I think it's just a matter of how irreperable the split in the Traveller market is now.
I mean, the game is, supposedly, about the only one that's ever actualyl topped D&D in sales, albeit for brief periods.
But a string of mismanagement, a dead company, and bad edition decisions, have left it largely the domain of gamers old enough to remember when Traveller was still one of the kings of roleplaying, and those remaining gamers are heavily divided on which edition is "best".
But a really well done 5th Edition, with the slick presentation the youngsters want, but still with that classic Traveller feel to it, and a good push behind it, could grab some attention I think, if whoever got publication had the drive and resources to really push the game.
SF is kind of a bastard child in the RPG industry these days, and maybe that's just because SF fans have become divisive, nitpicky jerks, I dunno, but it would be great to see an SF game really capture the market in a big way.
Allegedly, there was a brief period in the 90s where Vampire (revised, if I remember correctly) managed to outsell AD&D 2e in its worst state.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditAllegedly, there was a brief period in the 90s where Vampire (revised, if I remember correctly) managed to outsell AD&D 2e in its worst state.
RPGPundit
I could believe that. My first few years in college (before D&D 3rd Ed came out in 2000), Vampire players were all over the place, and easily outnumbered the D&Ders.
Quote from: RezendevousI could believe that. My first few years in college (before D&D 3rd Ed came out in 2000), Vampire players were all over the place, and easily outnumbered the D&Ders.
Yeah I remember here that the local game shops couldn't give AD&D 2nd edition stuff away but White Wolf books were selling like hotcakes.
Quote from: peteramthorYeah I remember here that the local game shops couldn't give AD&D 2nd edition stuff away but White Wolf books were selling like hotcakes.
The market for TSR products in general seemed to take a real nose dive in 1997 where I lived at the time (Topeka, KS). White Wolf games (of all stripes) and Shadowrun seemed to dominate the local game scene there up until (and shortly after) the release of D&D 3e.
The Holy Grail of licensed rpgs would be something sponsored by WD Richter and contained both the universes of Buckaroo Banzai and Big Trouble in Little China.
or it could be Dune.
Quote from: RPGPunditAllegedly, there was a brief period in the 90s where Vampire (revised, if I remember correctly) managed to outsell AD&D 2e in its worst state.
RPGPundit
Yeah. Few months, after ADnD stop the printers.
Quote from: stu2000The Holy Grail of licensed rpgs would be something sponsored by WD Richter and contained both the universes of Buckaroo Banzai and Big Trouble in Little China.
I'd buy that!
Quote from: stu2000The Holy Grail of licensed rpgs would be something sponsored by WD Richter and contained both the universes of Buckaroo Banzai and Big Trouble in Little China.
WIN