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http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=97239&src=FrontPage

I just picked up a copy (how could i NOT for $1.00?!) and was wondering if anyone else grabbed it as well?
 haven't started reading it yet, but figured I'd let others know about it.  
is the $1 price a temporary thing, or a marketing deal to get it "out there"?  it certainly got my attention, so...i guess it worked. ;)

Nice move, they've topped the Hottest Items list.

$1 is so trivial, I picked it up, even though I already have MRQII (both PDF and paper copies).  It's a smart move by Mongoose to get Legend out there.

Of course, RQ6 will be the better game, whilst compatible with the Legend/MRQII material... ;)

Impressive. 1$ is nothing.

Next time I buy something on rpgnow (I'm eager to get Crimson Exodus), I'll probably add the Legend PDF, although like Akrasia I already have MRQ2.

It is digest sized as well which means you can print sections as booklets.

hells, can't pass that up.  thanks for the info.

Nice that you can turn off the art layers. And it has bookmarks.

Cool deal.  Can't pass that up.

Sadly, it is slightly less perfect of a deal than I was hoping.  I've had this American Express gift card with slightly more than $1 left on it sitting in my wallet for months now and was hoping this would be the perfect opportunity to finally use up the damn thing.  Unfortunately, RPGNow doesn't take that card.  Oh well, back to my "get a candy bar at the convenience store" plan...

I have the hardcopy of MRQ II. I guess I should just cough up for the PDF but...

Anyone notice anything about Legend that I don't get by just using MRQ II with the update here: http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/pdf/legendchanges.pdf

I only got MRQ II to use steal ideas from for BRP/Chaosium Elric/AH RQ III, and as a secret decoder ring for Age of Treason. As a rules set, it seems a little more complex than I'd like, a little broken in places, and a little silly in others.

I'd consider using it with minor houseruling so as to jump right into Age of Treason.

Aside from that...the rules actually make me less interested in RQ6. I know that Lawrence Whittaker and Pete Nash are saying that RQ6 will let them put in things that Mongoose wouldn't let them or something like that--and that's what I'm afraid of. If RQ6 just takes the rules further along the current trajectory, even if it fixes some problems with Legend/MRQII along the way, it's not going to be for me at all.

OTOH if RQ6 streamlines the rules and/or includes expanded content (like, if it puts the expanded monster and equipment materials in the main book), then I'll be more interested again.

Hm, does anyone know if the Legend OGL SRD will be made available in electronic form? If not, then I guess $1 is worth it to have something you can copy & paste from if you do your own Legend-based stuff with the OGL.

Anything "of Legend" including the main rulebook itself is 100% OGL content.  There is no SRD, all the game books, cover to cover, are the SRD. :cool:

To address this...

QuoteAside from that...the rules actually make me less interested in RQ6. I know that Lawrence Whittaker and Pete Nash are saying that RQ6 will let them put in things that Mongoose wouldn't let them or something like that--and that's what I'm afraid of. If RQ6 just takes the rules further along the current trajectory, even if it fixes some problems with Legend/MRQII along the way, it's not going to be for me at all.

I'd need to know what it is you found to be

Quotea little broken in places, and a little silly in others.

:)

QuoteOTOH if RQ6 streamlines the rules and/or includes expanded content (like, if it puts the expanded monster and equipment materials in the main book), then I'll be more interested again.

This is easier to answer though. Yes, there is expanded content: monsters, magic, character generation options, combat manoeuvres, GMing tips and guidance. We haven't gone overboard on equipment (so there isn't an equivalent 'Arms and Equipment' book or extensive chapter, as Mongoose published) but all the key essentials, along with some further expanded rules concerning maintenance, manufacturing and so on are included. As are mechanics for bargaining/haggling and a couple of other useful areas for characters.

Thanks, just went and spent another $12. Loss leaders work.

And for anyone missing the Spirit Magic chapter, you can download it for free here:  http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/pdf/legspiritmagic.pdf (http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/pdf/legspiritmagic.pdf)

Quote from: CRKrueger;493335Anything "of Legend" including the main rulebook itself is 100% OGL content.  There is no SRD, all the game books, cover to cover, are the SRD. :cool:

This made it the best dollar I've spent in a while. Also the PDF looks fairly printer friendly: no huge graphic borders nor excessive ink-wasting graphics.

Hi, Lawrence. Don't mind me, I'm just bellyaching. But thanks for dropping in and letting me abuse you directly.

Quote from: Loz;493347To address this...



I'd need to know what it is you found to be

Quotea little broken in places, and a little silly in others.

Charisma gets you extra developments rolls. (While we're at it, I don't get why ALL BRP-based games don't follow Harnmaster's lead and use your "skill base" to calculate the bonus to development rolls instead of using INT.)

Following two cribbed from Mongoose forum:

Charging rules, though it looks like someone's had a crack at fixing them. Fundamentally, though, it sounds like the problem's a result of the "combat actions" turning into a semi-phased system akin to Hero or Dragonquest 1e.

Off-hand items give you extra combat actions without your actually have to use the item in a way that's relevant.

Some weird choices of attributes to use for derived stats and skill bases. I'm thinking of Strike Rank for instance, where the Legend revision removes SIZ as a factor--though it's not clear if this was intended for RQII from the start. For skill bases, it seems like POW got thrown in for a lot things just to keep it from being a dump stat. Ditto for CHA. Looking over the list, though, maybe it all sort of makes sense, at least for the Basic skills.

Background events table, page 24, last two items. What exactly do they mean, and how are they different from each other?

I seem to recall noting some odd limitations/combinations of culture/profession, although the only one I see right now is--no barbarian sailors? I guess this is fixed in the Vikings book. Oh, p. 18, what is a "Peasant" cultural background (under Woodsman)?

Some funkiness in the Group Tests rules, main one is that Team Tests provide no actual benefit or penalty to having a team. Not a big deal, and granted it's a longstanding issue with just about all RPGs, but the proposed solution just doesn't seem to have had a great deal of thought put into it.

I guess that's all I can find. I've been pretty busy and not much sleep lately, and, apparently, cranky as a result.

Quote from: RandallS;493359Also the PDF looks fairly printer friendly: no huge graphic borders nor excessive ink-wasting graphics.

You can switch the graphics and/or artwork off for printing. Very handy. I don't think there will be an editable Word or RTF file for Legend, as the whole text is OGC. Presumably Mongoose wanted to avoid the extra work of creating a separate editable SRD document the way they did for MRQ1 and Traveller.

Thanks for clarifying your issues.

QuoteCharisma gets you extra developments rolls. (While we're at it, I don't get why ALL BRP-based games don't follow Harnmaster's lead and use your "skill base" to calculate the bonus to development rolls instead of using INT.)

The reasoning is that Charisma drives social interaction which results in opportunities to learn from friends, colleagues, peers and family.

QuoteFollowing two cribbed from Mongoose forum:

Charging rules, though it looks like someone's had a crack at fixing them. Fundamentally, though, it sounds like the problem's a result of the "combat actions" turning into a semi-phased system akin to Hero or Dragonquest 1e.

Yes, these are being thoroughly overhauled for RQ6. Neither Pete nor myself were involved in the Legend update so I can't comment on the changes made there.

What's interesting around movement and charge is that people new to RQ and from a D&D/Pathfinder background have bigger issues with the abstractions than the more old-skool players. Its clear to us that we need to address how movement and charge can be made simpler to understand and work with figures/battlegrids more effectively, so we're doing a fair amount of work on these areas.

QuoteOff-hand items give you extra combat actions without your actually have to use the item in a way that's relevant.

We're completely dropping this rule.

QuoteSome weird choices of attributes to use for derived stats and skill bases. I'm thinking of Strike Rank for instance, where the Legend revision removes SIZ as a factor--though it's not clear if this was intended for RQII from the start. For skill bases, it seems like POW got thrown in for a lot things just to keep it from being a dump stat. Ditto for CHA. Looking over the list, though, maybe it all sort of makes sense, at least for the Basic skills.

We removed SIZ from the SR calculation in the errata for RQII and it doesn't appear at all in RQ6. It was a hangover from playtesting that was missed by the editor.

We think the base stats do make sense. Charisma's more important than many people realise but if you look at the base skills only three use CHA as part of the calculation. POW certainly isn't a dump stat: its fundamental to magic for instance, so its curious you draw that conclusion.

QuoteBackground events table, page 24, last two items. What exactly do they mean, and how are they different from each other?

You win the prize for this one - no one's spotted that anomaly before! All the background events have been rewritten and that last two removed completely.

QuoteI seem to recall noting some odd limitations/combinations of culture/profession, although the only one I see right now is--no barbarian sailors? I guess this is fixed in the Vikings book. Oh, p. 18, what is a "Peasant" cultural background (under Woodsman)?

Peasant is, again, an editing snafu. It doesn't appear at all in RQ6.

We've overhauled completely all the professions, access to skills, and provided guidance on creating custom professions. Its actually quite different to Legend now.

QuoteSome funkiness in the Group Tests rules, main one is that Team Tests provide no actual benefit or penalty to having a team. Not a big deal, and granted it's a longstanding issue with just about all RPGs, but the proposed solution just doesn't seem to have had a great deal of thought put into it.

I don't understand the issue you have with this. The rule is simple enough and its aimed at GMs, obviously, who often have to manage lots of NPCs in semi-abstract situations. I've used it myself on many occasions and it works just fine.

QuoteI guess that's all I can find. I've been pretty busy and not much sleep lately, and, apparently, cranky as a result.

No problem! It happens to the best of us. :-)

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;493391.Off-hand items give you extra combat actions without your actually have to use the item in a way that's relevant.

I houseruled that the combat action granted by the off-hand item could only be used with that item, that is, if you have a shield, the additional combat action you get can only be used with that shield, for example a shield block or a shield attack.

Quote from: Loz;493468We're completely dropping this rule.

:( I hope you won't drop it, I loved how bearing a shield (or a weapon in your off-hand) gave you a significant, but not overwhelming, advantage.

In a lot of RPGs shields suck. MRQ2 was one of the few exceptions. I hope this won't change in RQ6.

QuoteI hope you won't drop it, I loved how bearing a shield (or a weapon in your off-hand) gave you a significant, but not overwhelming, advantage.

It actually provides quite a whopping advantage depending in how many CA you have to start with. If you have 2, then you gain a 50% increase with a second weapon. A single CA advantage is very significant in the combat economy.

We introduced this rule to encourage characters to use shields more, precisely as you've found, but the extra CA rule has proved to be incredibly divisive and open to some abuse: I've even encountered this in sessions I've GMed. So whilst it was well intentioned, its actually easier to remove it.

QuoteIn a lot of RPGs shields suck. MRQ2 was one of the few exceptions. I hope this won't change in RQ6.

Aside from the above, no changes to shields. They remain by far the best defensive tool out there, even without the additional CA rule. They absorb a great deal of damage and can parry missile weapons, so they'll remain every bit as effective in RQ6.

Quote from: Loz;493468Thanks for clarifying your issues.

Not at all. I should make clear if I haven't already that these are all based on a read-through; I haven't actually playtested either MRQI or MRQII.

QuoteThe reasoning is that Charisma drives social interaction which results in opportunities to learn from friends, colleagues, peers and family.

Yes, I get this, it just seems overly broad and mechanically rigid, and inappropriate to some skills and circumstances.

Obviously I still haven't completely internalized the newfangled approach where development rolls aren't awarded for actions during adventures. On the other hand I think I like the training rules, although streamlining them down to something more like the Chaosium RQ rules would be fine. One thing missing from most training systems (possibly not Harnmaster) is the idea that ongoing practice is needed to keep a skill in peak form. What I'd like to see is something such as, "You may only maintain X skills above 100%, all others drop to 100% at the start of the next adventure"; or possibly making people pay for such skill maintenance by devoting development rolls or training time to it. But I'd like this to be streamlined and easy, so if you don't mind ;) .

QuoteYes, these are being thoroughly overhauled for RQ6. Neither Pete nor myself were involved in the Legend update so I can't comment on the changes made there.

I think the issues arise from mixing movement in with combat actions--but combat actions are an abstraction of "situational awareness" not physical speed per se.

QuoteWe removed SIZ from the SR calculation in the errata for RQII and it doesn't appear at all in RQ6. It was a hangover from playtesting that was missed by the editor.

Understood, partly I'm an old fogey as it was clear in the original RQ that SR mainly represented "reach", while the new rules seem to turn it into (again) "situational awareness". I'm still skeptical about the relationship between SR, Combat Actions, and what they all represent, but more play and thought on my part would be needed for me to be sure.

QuotePOW certainly isn't a dump stat: its fundamental to magic for instance, so its curious you draw that conclusion.

What I meant was that it seems like it gets used to establish base skill % in cases where the relationship seems a little tenuous, or better represented by some other attribute by itself. In Glorantha of course, POW isn't a dump stat. But it's those "funny" choices that seem to be the main thing keeping it from becoming one in a low-magic setting.

Similar comments from others about curious use of POW/CHA/INT in this thread (http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/forumsnew/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=48654), this one (http://www.ukroleplayers.com/reviews/legend/), and this one (http://basicroleplaying.com/showthread.php/1690-Mongoose-Runequest-II-in-2010/page3).

QuoteI don't understand the issue you have with this. The rule is simple enough and its aimed at GMs, obviously, who often have to manage lots of NPCs in semi-abstract situations. I've used it myself on many occasions and it works just fine.

It works fine mechanically, it's just curious. Two examples:

1. 10 people are maintaining a lookout, or searching for a hidden object. Only the highest skill is tested. So there's no benefit of having more eyes focused on the task. This is especially odd if nearly everyone has a skill close to the highest.

2. 10 people are sneaking through the woods. Only the lowest skill is tested. So there's no penalty for having a crowd. Again, this is especially odd if most of the group has a skill close to the lowest.

Okay, Lawrence, you're going to have to stop this.  This whole "improving the game" thing.  I just got into BRP/MRQII and picking up the cheap PDFs from Mongoose, and now I find you're fixing everything in a game that is not yet available.  This is clearly unacceptable.

(I kid! I kid!)

Seriously, though, much as I'm going to grit my teeth and wait for RQ6, (especially since the corebook will be generic) the fragmentation in the "D100" product space is a massive barrier to entry.  I've got a group interested in trying it, but the "wait, what game are we actually going to be playing" question has come up more than once.  Some of them have jumped on the $1 Legend sale, but it sounds like that's a dead end product line.

Got anything like a potential ship date for RQ6 yet?

Quote from: daniel_ream;493488Got anything like a potential ship date for RQ6 yet?

Nothing more specific than early next year. We won't be giving out dates until the only thing left to do is send it to the printers...

Oh, I understand.  I'm just afraid that by the time RQ6 ships my group will have lost its D100 momentum.

I will say that this thread here is the best "what's going to be different" summary I've seen yet; I know my group would appreciate such a summary posted somewhere easy to find, like on TDM's web site.

If we were to start playing Legend now, how difficulty would you estimate it would be to port over to RQ6 when it ships?

I must admit that I like the sound of what I hear from RQ6. Particularly glad to see that dual wield bonus CA go. It was one of those gripey things that seemed to generate problems.

As to some of the other things mentioned (this is relevant to both Legend and RQ): POW has been an aspect of perception skills since the 1970s. It's considered a mixture of willpower, magical strength, intuition and general in-tune-with-the-universeness. Also been associated with creativity for the same reason.

CHA in MRQ and Legend returned to the games roots so it's about strength of personality, social appeal, and also things like empathy.

In a game with no magic POW does risk being less important but again I don't see a problem with that. There's nothing saying that every characteristic has to be equally important in all games. That said, heroic abilities are activated through spending Magic Points so the highly skilled combat monsters can be more hampered by ignoring POW than is immediately obvious.

I am quite happy to have picked this up.

Quote from: deleriad;493509As to some of the other things mentioned (this is relevant to both Legend and RQ): POW has been an aspect of perception skills since the 1970s.

And right you are. Actually in the original RQ II, POW may be a factor in practically everything except your damage bonus--but in every single case, only a POW <=4 or >=17 has an effect, and that only the smallest increment (+/-5% for skills, +/-1 for hit points). So making it equally important as another ability for certain skills, or even being the sole basis (as in the case of Persistence) is a fairly large bump in its effect.

QuoteIn a game with no magic POW does risk being less important but again I don't see a problem with that. There's nothing saying that every characteristic has to be equally important in all games. That said, heroic abilities are activated through spending Magic Points so the highly skilled combat monsters can be more hampered by ignoring POW than is immediately obvious.

Also a good point, but to be clear, I'm not so much concerned about POW being a dump stat in MRQII as (at first blush) the artificiality of giving it so much weight in so many things, seemingly to keep it from being a dump stat for non-magical characters. Perhaps instead POW should just be discarded for some campaigns.

That said, I could see keeping POW as a minor influence in some (or all) skills. E.g. for those skills where POW is already listed with some other ability X, use .5 * (POW + 3X). Not sure what to do with Persistence.

I could also see using POW to modify starting Hero points. The idea is to return POW to a role of "quintessential mojo".

QuoteCHA in MRQ and Legend returned to the games roots so it's about strength of personality, social appeal, and also things like empathy.

In original RQII it's just a factor in Oratory as far as I can tell, although there's an implication that you'll roll CHA*5% for persuasion (i.e., as a Characteristic Roll).

No time to check out RQIII on these points. In any case, having CHA affect your development rolls seems like a major innovation (that I'm not too crazy about).

Anyway, I do wish Loz & Pete luck with RQ6, although I'm probably not going to order it first thing--as I've mentioned, BRP is probably about the degree of complexity (particularly in combat) that I'm looking for, and even though RQ6 does sound like it will be a better game than MRQII/Legend, it still seems like most of the stuff which I'd want to borrow for BRP are already in MRQII/Legend.

Quote from: daniel_ream;493488Some of them have jumped on the $1 Legend sale, but it sounds like that's a dead end product line

I wouldn't say Legend is dead end, sure for a while they are going to be reprinting the MRQII line in Legend format, but there still is Deus Vult, Eternal Champion license, Age of Treason, and Mongoose was in negotiation for the Conan license again.

I don't see the d100 explosion as a barrier to entry, I see it as a GM's best friend, since all of the systems are extremely compatible.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;493529No time to check out RQIII on these points. In any case, having CHA affect your development rolls seems like a major innovation (that I'm not too crazy about).

In Chaosium RQ2 CHA had more of an influence in character advancement than you realise because your cost to buy training was reduced by CHA so essentially CHA helped you either progress more quickly or enabled you to buy more stuff while progressing at the same rate.

Pretty much all of the themes in MRQ II/Legend you pointed out can be found in RQ all along. In MRQ/Legend they are often more direct and often simpler at the cost of being a bit chunky.

As for POW. Just about all the RQ3 I ran in the 80s was in low magic settings where only some specialists had magic. POW was still a popular stat because of the existence of the POW*5 luck roll. In Legend/MRQ the existence of POW activated heroic abilities are likely to play the same role.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;493529Perhaps instead POW should just be discarded for some campaigns.

These days I just describe POW as willpower to new players. It makes more sense when imagining characters, starting skill percentages, magic points etc. See also Wisdom under D&D.

Quote from: CRKrueger;493531I don't see the d100 explosion as a barrier to entry, I see it as a GM's best friend, since all of the systems are extremely compatible.

Exactly. Essentially Mongoose have made the Legend core rules PDF the equivalent of a SRD that you pay $1 for. If you have the Legend PDF you could buy RQ6 or BRP or OpenQuest and either mix and match to your own desires or base your games on one of them with ideas adopted from others as and when needed.

My hope is that RQ6 will be a really good evolution of MRQII. If it is and if good 3pp come out for Legend, I'll buy them and add them into how I play RQ6.

Quote from: deleriad;493568In Chaosium RQ2 CHA had more of an influence in character advancement than you realise because your cost to buy training was reduced by CHA so essentially CHA helped you either progress more quickly or enabled you to buy more stuff while progressing at the same rate.

Well, you're right again! Just goes to show what misperceptions can arise from playing a houseruled mishmash.

I do think, though, that explicitly tying CHA to obtaining training (since training is still covered by MRQII) would be a better approach than using CHA as part of your free development rolls, which have substituted for the old method of getting development rolls for successful skill use in an adventure.

The idea is to avoid the development farming you get with rolls tied directly to skill use.

"Are there any trees around? I climb them to practice my Climb." *checks box next to Climb*

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;493600The idea is to avoid the development farming you get with rolls tied directly to skill use.

"Are there any trees around? I climb them to practice my Climb." *checks box next to Climb*

That never works in D100 games I run. Only actual use of a skill where success or failure truly matters earns a skill check. "Practicing skills" is covered by the training rules.

Quote from: RandallS;493626That never works in D100 games I run. Only actual use of a skill where success or failure truly matters earns a skill check. "Practicing skills" is covered by the training rules.

It may not happen at your table, but it happens. It's a pretty well known problem - so much so that there are jokes about it.

Also, tracking it all can be a pain in the ass. Especially over time, since you've got to make sure people remember to erase the little ticks between sessions.

See p.38 of the Legend PDF, "When and When Not to Roll". It clearly states that skill rolls are only made when it matters. If you don't roll, you can't get a skill check.

Another one who picked up the game for a dollar and the Monsters book as well. Still cheap at that. Just need to print/bind it now, probably with a brown leatherette hardback cover I should think (got yards of the stuff on the cheap).

Yes, ultimately it was worth it as a cheap printable/portable resource/SRD even if the likelihood I'll play it RAW is minuscule.

As for "development farming", I used to think it could be a problem, now I doubt that it is. In any case, even if I awarded a # of rolls without reference to whatever happened during adventures, I wouldn't use the CHA rule as-is; instead as I suggested above I would use CHA to modify the cost and availability of training.

Quote from: RandallS;493626That never works in D100 games I run. Only actual use of a skill where success or failure truly matters earns a skill check. "Practicing skills" is covered by the training rules.

Quote from: Vile;493640See p.38 of the Legend PDF, "When and When Not to Roll". It clearly states that skill rolls are only made when it matters. If you don't roll, you can't get a skill check.

The irony is that it's not a houserule, in all the 1d100 games I have played or read, the rules state you only get a skill check when you use it towards a significant goal. However, this hasn't stopped people from abusing the rule.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;493631It may not happen at your table, but it happens. It's a pretty well known problem - so much so that there are jokes about it.

Also, tracking it all can be a pain in the ass. Especially over time, since you've got to make sure people remember to erase the little ticks between sessions.

Yes, I agree that those are serious flaws in the BRP system.  Of course, the former can be mitigated with GM fiat.  I just don't let my players check unless I deem it something worthy of a check.  

The latter is a hassle when its unintentional, and a bitch when its intentional.  And we can't just ignore that: its easier for cheaters to cheat on their character's advancement (or potential advancement at least) in BRP than in other systems.

RPGPundit

The improvement roll situation in Legend makes it pretty easy to keep track of, as do the hero points in OQ.

Quote from: RPGPundit;494216Yes, I agree that those are serious flaws in the BRP system.  Of course, the former can be mitigated with GM fiat.  I just don't let my players check unless I deem it something worthy of a check.

What you do is not a houserule, it's what the rules actually say:

QuoteGamemasters generally allow experience checks whenever skills are successfully used in stressful situations. An attack against a helpless target is not a stressful situation and does not deserve an experience check. Likewise, taking an hour to pick a lock (using the Devise skill) is not a stressful situation - but doing it in one melee round as the trolls approach is a stressful situation, and deserves a check.

From RQ3 Deluxe, Players Book p 36.

Yes, I know, a lot of people ignore it, but it's actually in the fucking book. You cannot accuse the system of a flaw when people constantly ignore the rules.
 

QuoteThe latter is a hassle when its unintentional, and a bitch when its intentional.  And we can't just ignore that: its easier for cheaters to cheat on their character's advancement (or potential advancement at least) in BRP than in other systems.

RPGPundit

Frankly, cheaters are gonna cheat. As with all the dickish behaviors, the only thing you can do is talk to them, and if this doesn't work, kick them out.

It probably is a real issue with the younger players, but I think the benefits of an experience system that directly awards characters for their actions far outweigh the potential annoyance of cheaters. I personally haven't come across this in years, possibly because my age group of players are less entertained by cheating these days and I've rarely refereed groups too large to be able to watch what they're up to with their character sheets.

I suppose the referee could always note down ticks himself rather than let the players do it. Makes less of a mess of character sheets, too.

There is even an element of reality to 'tick-hunting'. Professionals often leap at the chance to practice their skills in areas that they don't get to use every day. It's one of the reasons you should always be wary of doctors advising you to undergo unusual surgical procedures ... :eek:

Claudius, I agree with you on the first point. Its true that you can't blame the game for people not reading how its actually run or bad GMs not enforcing it.

As to your second point, though, "cheaters are gonna cheat", its a lot easier to spot a cheater in an RC D&D character than in Runequest or other BRP games.  

In D&D, the guy can fudge the dice rolls, or can write the wrong xp down.  If he actually tries to change stats like to-hit, AC, saving throw, or special abilities, you can always check because these values will be consistently the same for his class and level.  This will even be true of hit points within a certain range, and the HP roll is the most likely to be carefully observed and noted by the GM and other players.

In BRP; a guy can consistently check boxes he wasn't supposed to check, and roll them at the experience phase. There's nothing but the rest of the group's memory to say otherwise, if they're even paying attention (and most GMs I know would just say "ok everyone do your advancement rolls").  If he's suspected of having cheated, there's no way to check to see if his skills are "too high" because everyone's skills will be different and at different values and can advance at different values.

Obviously, its still true that a "cheater is gonna (want to) cheat"; but one game is far more likely to tempt said cheater to try to cheat than the other, and because in that game he'll have a much likelier attempt to pull it off.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;494585Obviously, its still true that a "cheater is gonna (want to) cheat"; but one game is far more likely to tempt said cheater to try to cheat than the other, and because in that game he'll have a much likelier attempt to pull it off.

Um, just don't play with cheaters.

Seriously, life is too short to waste one's leisure time with dicks.

Quote from: Akrasia;494590Um, just don't play with cheaters.

Quoted for truth.

I agree that is the best policy.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;493391Hi, Lawrence. Don't mind me, I'm just bellyaching. But thanks for dropping in and letting me abuse you directly.

Good on you for admitting you were just cranky. I don't have to suggest a clear example of grumbling about your subjective tweaks to a ruleset that you have just been offered for a dollar...

I still feel Elric! was the best high fantasy BRP ever.. but I have run MRQII/Legend/RQ6 with friends and it has a nice slightly crunchy flavour with some nice tactical bits. I am happy to say it's my current "play it as it is d100 game".

Actually I don't care if people cheat a little. If it makes them happy and it's just a little bit of pushing the envelope then fine. I don't ask if they don't tell.

It's not a competitive experience for me, and I always hold the whip hand since I can 'cheat' everytime I bring an NPC (hostile or not) into the game.

You know, some referees actually don't even read the dice.. shocking...

Quote from: RPGPundit;494585Claudius, I agree with you on the first point. Its true that you can't blame the game for people not reading how its actually run or bad GMs not enforcing it.

On the other hand, I don't mean that what Pseudoephedrine and you describe doesn't happen, quite the contrary, I have seen it with my own eyes in games I took part in!!! Interestingly, it's a rule a lot of people seem to abuse, despite what the BRP rules actually say. I wonder why that happens.

Quote from: tzunder;494729You know, some referees actually don't even read the dice.. shocking...

That's only cheating when a Player does it.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Claudius;494945It's a rule a lot of people seem to abuse, despite what the BRP rules actually say. I wonder why that happens.

Consenting adults and all that.

OK, I took the bait, despite already owning MRQ2, yesterday I bought the Legend PDF. Just 0.72€!!

looks like spirit magic for legend is available for free at drivethruRPG.  dunno for how long :idunno:

The Spirit Magic stuff couldn't fit in the page count, of the Legend Rulebook, so it will always be a free download.

Most excellent.