Are their games any good? Based on the number of minis they sell they look more like wargames than RPGs. I'm thinking about backing the John Carter RPG they have on Kickstarter but am dubious about their game mechanics. Any opinions?
I spent a lot of money on Achtung! Cthulu... It's very pretty, but not a lot of 'there' there. I would be concerned you'll end up with a nice looking coffee table book not much use in actual play.
Their books have very good art in them. The buyers are into nostalgia, rather than into game systems. In other words, the 2D20 system is not what sells their games.
Watch YouTube videos of players trying to figure out the 2D20 system, and see if you're better off just buying a JCoM coffee table artbook instead and using the game system you know by heart.
They have games other than their 2d20 game. I picked up Coriolis, and I found it to be enjoyable enough.
I'm personally not the least bit fond of their 2d20 house system.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1018941They have games other than their 2d20 game. I picked up Coriolis, and I found it to be enjoyable enough.
Yeah, there's a difference between their in-house games and the ones they just publish. Coriolis is one of Free League's games. All of the games that Modiphius has done lately that I've seen use 2d20. I'm not a big fan of the 2d20 games, but I think Coriolis is pretty good and I'm looking forward to Forbidden Lands.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1018941They have games other than their 2d20 game. I picked up Coriolis, and I found it to be enjoyable enough.
The 3rd-party games they distribute tend to be all right. If you design a game and have money, Modiphius is a good publisher to make your RPG book look really cool and all.
I played a little 2d20 Conan, and playtested some 2d20 lite for John Carter. I dunno, but the rules seemed okay but nothing better than other rules systems that I've used for a long time. I kind of wish they would have developed these games for 5E or some other more popular system rather than blazing their own trail into system design.
I just saw Cold & Dark in a store today. It was only $31.50 so I decided to pick it up. I'm pretty sure that it's the only book I own that's printed in Latvia.
Quote from: finarvyn;1019054I kind of wish they would have developed these games for 5E or some other more popular system rather than blazing their own trail into system design.
Amen to that.
I own and have played Mutant Chronicles, and recently received my Infinity rpg kickstarter books but haven't played yet. My gaming group is my kids, and they grow up, and have their own things to do!
I love the life-path character generation, and the heat/momentum mechanic is really fun in practice when it gets going.
It plays much like the shared Karma pool in Marvel faserip.
The rulebooks for both games I have provide enormous options for characters, group arrangements, adventure seeds/plot hooks, and adversaries/'monsters'.
Overall I'm a fan of the 2D20 system, and love Modiphius' lineup.
Quote from: finarvyn;1019054I played a little 2d20 Conan, and playtested some 2d20 lite for John Carter. I dunno, but the rules seemed okay but nothing better than other rules systems that I've used for a long time. I kind of wish they would have developed these games for 5E or some other more popular system rather than blazing their own trail into system design.
Oh god no, last thing I want is more IP shoehorned into any d20/D&D derived system.
Quote from: AaronBrown99;1019135Overall I'm a fan of the 2D20 system, and love Modiphius' lineup.
Me too, it's not my favourite system but it's god enough that'll I'll buy the and happily use based on the IPs.
Quote from: finarvyn;1019054I played a little 2d20 Conan, and playtested some 2d20 lite for John Carter. I dunno, but the rules seemed okay but nothing better than other rules systems that I've used for a long time. I kind of wish they would have developed these games for 5E or some other more popular system rather than blazing their own trail into system design.
Quote from: HorusArisen;1019160Oh god no, last thing I want is more IP shoehorned into any d20/D&D derived system.
It's too bad the MRQII Conan plans fell through. I think Mythras is a better system for Conan if you don't want that heavy narrative metalayer 2d20 gives you.
Quote from: CRKrueger;1019173It's too bad the MRQII Conan plans fell through. I think Mythras is a better system for Conan if you don't want that heavy narrative metalayer 2d20 gives you.
Mythras Conan would have made my day.
Quote from: HorusArisen;1019160Oh god no, last thing I want is more IP shoehorned into any d20/D&D derived system.
Well, to be fair, 2d20 isn't a d20-derived system:).
Quote from: HorusArisen;1019181Mythras Conan would have made my day.
Mine too, but not going to happen in the near future;).
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1019002The 3rd-party games they distribute tend to be all right. If you design a game and have money, Modiphius is a good publisher to make your RPG book look really cool and all.
Fria Ligan / Free League and Järnringen don't need any of Modiphius's design skills. Their translated games looked really cool in their native language before.
Coriolis, Tales from the Loop, and
Symbaroum are the most beautiful books I've seen in a long time. OTOH,
Forbidden Lands ... not so much.
(Note that I mean this in the coffee table book sense. I have no idea how practical their book design and layout is, and how they hold up in actual use at the gaming table. My experience is that "cool" graphic design often is in stark conflict with ergonomical, ease-of-use design.
Case in point: In Sixmorevodka's utterly gorgeous
Degenesis Rebirth, the use of
tiny and thin
dark red type font on full bleed black page background in an
INDEX is an indication that the layout artist was so in love with a high concept art direction that he completely lost touch with functional book design.)
Quote from: AsenRG;1019196Well, to be fair, 2d20 isn't a d20-derived system:).
Mine too, but not going to happen in the near future;).
Lol no I'm fine with 2d20 just the suggestion 5e (or any D&D derivatives) made me groan.
I'm looking forward to Mythic Mesopotamia, I think along with some of the other Mythic lines you'd have enough to do your own pretty cool S&S setting.
Quote from: HorusArisen;1019202Lol no I'm fine with 2d20 just the suggestion 5e (or any D&D derivatives) made me groan.
Oh, that! I can relate:).
QuoteI'm looking forward to Mythic Mesopotamia, I think along with some of the other Mythic lines you'd have enough to do your own pretty cool S&S setting.
I'd say that every Mythic Something setting is, by itself, a pretty cool S&S setting;).
On my behalf, Jay Little can get the fuck out of the RPG design, and go do some boardgames instead.
My group and I tried to play test the Star Trek Adventures game, but found the system to be dull and interfered with actually playing the session. We gave up fairly quickly.
The physical quality of all Modiphius games are outstandingly good, and they are well done books in terms of art direction, writing and editing. If you buy the Conan game, for example, you won't find it lacking for material.
The 2D20 system is a bit meh for me, though.
Quote from: HorusArisen;1019181Mythras Conan would have made my day.
As was pointed out over in The Design Mechanism forums when the same question was raised, it's not as if you'd have to do any work to Mythras to be able to play a Conan-style game. It plays exactly like that out of the box.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;1019357As was pointed out over in The Design Mechanism forums when the same question was raised, it's not as if you'd have to do any work to Mythras to be able to play a Conan-style game. It plays exactly like that out of the box.
True but I would love to have a Mophidius level and quality of material.
Quote from: Moracai;1019326On my behalf, Jay Little can get the fuck out of the RPG design, and go do some boardgames instead.
I hold Jay Little in equal standing with J. J. Abrams for their roles in killing my love of Star Wars.
Star Trek Adventures is a bit of a revision of 2d20. They took a lot from thefirst games and themed the rules to Star Trek.
What's easy:
Character creation. It's a non-random lifepath, though you can go random if you want. Random characters don't come out any weaker or more powerful than regular characters
Ship creation. Making a ship in this game takes less time than making a character. That said, each ship is a custom thing. You can make, say, a dozen different types of Excelsior ships, each of which fills a different niche.
Basic game system. Not that difficult. Choose the two stats that you're going to use to make a roll, add them together and roll 2d20, trying to roll under the stat total.
Deep customization. Despite the speed of ship/character creation, there are lots of options to make things different. Lots of tactics in battle.
What's not so easy
There are a couple different types of story currency. There are probably a dozen ways to spend them. It seems daunting to learn them, but I gave it a read-through and understood.
Quote from: Moracai;1019326On my behalf, Jay Little can get the fuck out of the RPG design, and go do some boardgames instead.
I'll go ahead and counter this by saying on my behalf, Jay Little can continue working on whatever he likes, and I'll continue to like his designs.
Quote from: Malleustein;1019352My group and I tried to play test the Star Trek Adventures game, but found the system to be dull and interfered with actually playing the session. We gave up fairly quickly.
This is my experience with the Conan quickstart. I do not like systems that make me 'hostile' towards the players.
Quote from: AaronBrown99;1019388I'll go ahead and counter this by saying on my behalf, Jay Little can continue working on whatever he likes, and I'll continue to like his designs.
Given that so far whatever he has worked on seems to be making a profit for all involved I don't see Jay Little lacking a job.
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;1019200(Note that I mean this in the coffee table book sense. I have no idea how practical their book design and layout is, and how they hold up in actual use at the gaming table. My experience is that "cool" graphic design often is in stark conflict with ergonomical, ease-of-use design.
Case in point: In Sixmorevodka's utterly gorgeous Degenesis Rebirth, the use of tiny and thin dark red type font on full bleed black page background in an INDEX is an indication that the layout artist was so in love with a high concept art direction that he completely lost touch with functional book design.)
All good coffee table art books have easy to read text in them as well. And indexes with sources listed.
Quote from: HorusArisen;1019358True but I would love to have a Mophidius level and quality of material.
If Modiphius produced a D100 core rulebook, I'd most likely buy that one over all the other D100 RPGs out there.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1019416If Modiphius produced a D100 core rulebook, I'd most likely by that one over all the other D100 RPGs out there.
It would certainly be pretty lol
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1019415All good coffee table art books have easy to read text in them as well. And indexes with sources listed.
Touché.
So you're saying that some of those opulent RPG books aren't even good coffee table books? Works for me...
Quote from: finarvyn;1019054I played a little 2d20 Conan, and playtested some 2d20 lite for John Carter. I dunno, but the rules seemed okay but nothing better than other rules systems that I've used for a long time. I kind of wish they would have developed these games for 5E or some other more popular system rather than blazing their own trail into system design.
This post should be embossed onto the foreheads of all the thousands of would-be re-writers of published roleplaying games everywhere. We all have our page or two of house rules kicking around for every game we play (they even used to provide a few blank pages in the backs of game books where you were supposed to write these down!). Just because you can use your laptop to turn your house rules into a 'new game' doesn't mean you should. Rules wankery has all but trashed our hobby; I think there are now more rules sets floating around than there are published modules that are really worth your time and money.
So we should never try and improve rpgs or anything in general. If we listened to everyone who said we would all be riding in horse driven carts and never reached the moon. Thank god rpg designers and everyone else decided to not listen to narrow minded afraid of any kind of change individuals. Both in this hobby and outside of it.
I'm a big fan of almost all versions of D&D the rules don't work for every genre and if they did I rather not see every rpg be the same. I like Pizza I sure as hell don't want to eat it everyday. Nor play D&D all the time.
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;1019440Touché.
So you're saying that some of those opulent RPG books aren't even good coffee table books? Works for me...
Ha! Maybe if they are in the $5.99 section of Barnes & Noble.
Quote from: sureshot;1019464So we should never try and improve rpgs or anything in general. If we listened to everyone who said we would all be riding in horse driven carts and never reached the moon.
Horse driven carts wouldn't be improved is all. Just like RPGs wouldn't be improved.
You can't do anything but improve on the d20 system.
I've run a decent bit of Mutant Chronicles Resurrection and have lots of the new Warzone minis and a few of the old ones.
My thought remains, why oh why couldn't have they made the narrativist stuff optional?
Even so, I think 2d20's okay. It's fun and my players loved the momentum pool.
What I dislike is that it really forces the GM into an adversarial role. I got some flak for trying to hand a PC a helpful NPC as the result of a good roll once. I even ran a few days of a play by post game that disintegrated. I really don't know if it was my GMing or just people's lives. Admittedly, as it was a play by post game it was more story driven than I prefer though I still think High Town was a fun idea. A Captitol subdivision on top of a block of skyscrapers that tries to mimic 1950s America and ruthlessly enforces dress and building codes to that end. Naturally it's sitting on top of the negative space for a Citadel of Illan which was put in by a heretic architect and will on day be filled in when the portal opens. :D
Oh well, Modiphius are having fun and doing fun things and have a vision. It's not exactly where I'd like things to go but then that's what led me to stop buying lots of games and start working on my own. Traveller, GURPS, Savage Worlds, and Rolemaster have each let me down badly in their own way and while I love them to death, the current trends in game design are really unappealing to me so I largely sit things out. Reviving Mutant Chronicles was enough to wring some money out of me but I still think the books are too pricey. On the other hand, they've given me Mutant Chronicles ship to ship combat and ships. So, while it's not everything I wish it were I actually bought it.
Quote from: HorusArisen;1019358True but I would love to have a Mophidius level and quality of material.
Well, other than a budget for art and full color glossy pages, and maybe layout, I don't think Modiphius has a quality advantage over DM. Loz and Pete are great designers and writers. In terms of actual content, striking a balance between good reading and usefulness at the table, I think DM books are pretty hard to beat.
Quote from: sureshot;1019464I'm a big fan of almost all versions of D&D the rules don't work for every genre and if they did I rather not see every rpg be the same. I like Pizza I sure as hell don't want to eat it everyday. Nor play D&D all the time.
True. But sometimes, some games benefits more from useing a more familiar framework than doing something different just on principle. New does not equal better or more fitting for a task by simply beeing different. Just because we don't always want pizza does not mean we want to abolish pizza, or that it does not have it's merrit some times.
I would rather had seen something like BRP, 5e, Savage Worlds or an actually custom made system for Mophidius Conan game. This is not because old is per default better, but because 2d20(Mutant Chronicles 3ed) is per default a very shitty option for a Conan game. It really seemed that someone desperately wanted to have Mutant Chronicle's system tied to the Conan license as top priority more than they wanted to make a marvelous Conan game. IMHO yadadyadyblarf...
Quote from: Madprofessor;1019640Well, other than a budget for art and full color glossy pages, and maybe layout, I don't think Modiphius has a quality advantage over DM. Loz and Pete are great designers and writers. In terms of actual content, striking a balance between good reading and usefulness at the table, I think DM books are pretty hard to beat.
In terms of content Pete and Liz are destroying them. I'm purely on about budget.
Mythras is and remains in my top three gaming list.
Yeah, I'd seriously rather Modiphius had stuck with 1d20, rather than two.
I bought the Monsters & Magic RPG from Mindjammer Press. Which is also under the Modiphius banner. And I am liking it just fine.
It's a straight up OSR game. But it seems to do away with the d20. Which is weird. But I find myself really enjoying it.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1020249Yeah, I'd seriously rather Modiphius had stuck with 1d20, rather than two.
personally think that 1d20 is an obsolete part of the system, and going to the future, dicepools are the future. People fucking hate their class abilities going from 1/5, or 20, orwhatever. This is a dying dice mechanic.
Kill d20 by the fire, or you never gonna have the balls to go with it!
M
Edit- I mean it. The d20 does nothing. dicepool systems kno da weyl
I disagree. I really dislike dicepool systems. I have gained that opinion from extensive experience with White Wolf's games.
The d20 boom was more of a relief to me than anything. A return to a more traditional form of RPG gaming.
I'm one of trhe weird animals. I like traditional RPGs and I like what some people call storygames. I think both can deliver valuable gaming experiences to the people who like them.
There is no 'one true way' of gaming. There are just personal preferences.
Quote from: Moracai;1020521personally think that 1d20 is an obsolete part of the system, and going to the future, dicepools are the future. People fucking hate their class abilities going from 1/5, or 20, orwhatever. This is a dying dice mechanic.
Kill d20 by the fire, or you never gonna have the balls to go with it!
M
Edit- I mean it. The d20 does nothing. dicepool systems kno da weyl
Dice pool systems suck and have no market power. The D20 system is the the market. Everybody else fights for table scraps.
Quote from: Ulairi;1020541Dice pool systems suck and have no market power. The D20 system is the the market. Everybody else fights for table scraps.
Self-fulfilling prophecy?
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1019405This is my experience with the Conan quickstart. I do not like systems that make me 'hostile' towards the players.
Hoe does it do that? Some sort of system that forces the DM to actively screw with the players or something?
Quote from: HorusArisen;1019518You can't do anything but improve on the d20 system.
5e doesnt used the 3e d20 system.
Quote from: Omega;10205915e doesnt used the 3e d20 system.
It's the red headed stepchild of 3e (4e was adopted) and like all d20 by which I mean D&D can only be improved on....usually by using a better system.
Quote from: Omega;1020590Hoe does it do that? Some sort of system that forces the DM to actively screw with the players or something?
The GM has a Doom Pool, that he can spend points out of to do various things. For example:
- Normally the PCs go first in initiative always...unless the GM spends a Doom Pool point to have an NPC go when he wants.
- Think of a cool ability an NPC has, and especially their signature ability that can bring down the house (like dragon breath)...it will be a Doom Pool expenditure to use.
- These foes aren't enough...spend Doom to bring in reinforcements, or spend Doom to upgrade these Mooks into a higher form of opponent.
- In other words, most of the Fiat stuff that GMs do costs Doom to invoke, even stuff that might normally be considered cheating or illusionism. Since the GM has to spend Doom Points, it's ok.
...and here's why it's ok...
The GM starts with some Doom, but most of the Doom comes from the players. Its called the 2d20 system, but in reality, every roll the PC makes, they can choose to boost it to 5d20, by giving the GM a Doom Pool point for every die. Also some other things cost Doom. You're not a very good warrior, Parrying can cost Doom for example.
So you have a give and take between Player and GM with the Doom Pool being a type of conversation. "How far are we willing to go?" If you want to really amp the fuck up and Conan the shit out of everything, roll 5d20s for everything and you're gonna be kicking ass, but you're basically handing that Doom currency over to the GM and saying "Do your worst."
It lays a kind of collaborative/competitive storytelling throttle over everything.
An example of this would be in my gameplay runthrough of To Race the Thunder (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?34079-Playtest-Conan-2d20-To-Race-the-Thunder), an intro adventure. The PCs in some cases were really angry/determined to save settlers from some Picts and really went for it, going all out...and that made the encounters with the animals under control of the Pictish shaman all that more deadly.
Quote from: Omega;1020590Hoe does it do that? Some sort of system that forces the DM to actively screw with the players or something?
There's a trading of resource, players use it to get an advantage, but gives it to the GM to use against the players. The GM has to use it to give to back to the players, but the GM has to use it against the players. I dislike that.
That is certainly how force points work in FFG Star Wars, but I don't think it is how Momentum works in 2d20. I'm pretty sure that the players gaining Momentum has nothing to do with whether or not the GM is hoarding Doom/Heat/Threat or the other way around.
Players start out with 3 Fortune each. They can regain Fortune by:
1. Do cool stuff, roleplaying, etc. The game suggests 2-3 Fortune Point gains per hour of play.
2. The player can choose to fail a skill test. This gains them 1 Fortune and gives the GM 1 Doom.
3. The player can choose have one of their Traits introduce an immediate Complication for the character which gains them a Fortune point.
GMs start out with a number of Doom equal to the amount of starting Fortune of all players.
GM's gain Doom when granted through player choice, or by choosing to bank Momentum generated by NPCs.
Both PCs and NPCs generate Momentum through extra successes on tests. This Momentum is usually spent to activate special options associated with the type of test.
Quote from: Manic Modron;1020658That is certainly how force points work in FFG Star Wars, but I don't think it is how Momentum works in 2d20. I'm pretty sure that the players gaining Momentum has nothing to do with whether or not the GM is hoarding Doom/Heat/Threat or the other way around.
Momentum is generated by PC's rolling more success results than the task requires.
Of course the players can spend Momentum to remove Doom from the GM's pool, if they don't want to spend it later. This can keep the GM from gaining too many and throwing the Kitchen Sink at them later!
Quote from: Ulairi;1020541Dice pool systems suck and have no market power.
Bwahahaha, that
was funny:D!
Doesnt sound very adversarial? Just a sort of point economy that shifts between player and DM? Like one or two board games and at least one other RPG have? Mice & Mystics for example. The cheese wheel gets added to every time the enemy rolls cheese on the die. If the wheel fills then reinforcements arrive for the enemey and the clock track is advances one. But the players can steal cheese rolled or from the wheel to power abilities.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1020483I bought the Monsters & Magic RPG from Mindjammer Press. Which is also under the Modiphius banner. And I am liking it just fine.
It's a straight up OSR game. But it seems to do away with the d20. Which is weird. But I find myself really enjoying it.
If it doesn't use the D20, does it otherwise follow the format of D&D? What does it substitute the D20 with?
Quote from: Moracai;1020521personally think that 1d20 is an obsolete part of the system, and going to the future, dicepools are the future.
"d20s are obsolete! Dicepools are now the future!"
-some asshole, circa 1995
Quote from: RPGPundit;1021448If it doesn't use the D20, does it otherwise follow the format of D&D? What does it substitute the D20 with?
3d6.
It's not the only d20 variant to make this change. The French
Dragon de Poche is another one that comes to mind.
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;10215003d6.
It's not the only d20 variant to make this change. The French Dragon de Poche is another one that comes to mind.
With no other alterations to D&D?
Wont work as the bell curve alone will skew things quite a bit.
With modifications it starts to become some other RPG system potentially. Depending on how much was modified. I think you could get away with just the to hit and save system and adjust stat and magic weapon bonuses perhaps.
Quote from: AsenRG;1021026Bwahahaha, that was funny:D!
You may like them. I may not. That's personal taste. Market power? Not really a way to argue against that. D&D makes up the market. It is the market. Once you account for D&D and games based on the engine (PF, OSR, etc) there are very few dollars left.
The 5E books have sold around 10,000,000 copies. Most other publishers sell less than 10,000 copies.
Quote from: sureshot;1019464So we should never try and improve rpgs or anything in general. If we listened to everyone who said we would all be riding in horse driven carts and never reached the moon. Thank god rpg designers and everyone else decided to not listen to narrow minded afraid of any kind of change individuals. Both in this hobby and outside of it.
I'm a big fan of almost all versions of D&D the rules don't work for every genre and if they did I rather not see every rpg be the same. I like Pizza I sure as hell don't want to eat it everyday. Nor play D&D all the time.
Well, I see where you are coming from but have a few thoughts.
(1) I would never say "don't try to improve" anything, but my experience is that most of the time things that change games don't really seem to improve them that much. The fundamentals of RPG design come down to how well one can create a character, how well one can create a campaign, and how well those characters and campaigns fit together. Some systems do this better than others, some systems appeal to certain gamers than others.
(2) I like D&D, but don't think that D&D is the only way one can play a game. My concern is that Modiphius has created its own system (which I happen not to like very much) and then is trying to make it work for every genre they can. Same complaint that folks have with d20, but with the Modiphius house rules. I'm not sure that this is any different than the "make everything d20" complaint, only with a different game system because now we get Star Trek and Conan and John Carter shoehorned into similar rules sets. :(
I think if the D20 boom kept the basic resolution mechanic and made slightly different games for different settings more often it would have worked out a little better. Mutants & Masterminds/True 20 and Star Wars Saga are the only ones that come to mind, though. They showed that the basic D20 system could be a bit flexible in execution, but not a lot of other d20 games bothered.
2D20 might not be to everybody's cup of tea (I'm not 100% on it myself. I am not a fan of zones for one thing), but comparing what I can from Conan and Star Trek, I am not feeling the same showhorning that I remember from yet another D20 book. Advancement for one thing appears to be changed from game to game. Conan is a point buy set up of spending XP and Star Trek is more like Fate where you are looking at different milestones to advance. There are more examples where the games are starting to feel like they work a bit differently despite having similar task resolution, but I haven't poured over the books to compare and contrast yet.
I'm cautiously optimistic that the Modiphius team is making games off the same basic chassis that will still feel different in actual play.
Quote from: Manic Modron;1021707I think if the D20 boom kept the basic resolution mechanic and made slightly different games for different settings more often it would have worked out a little better. Mutants & Masterminds/True 20 and Star Wars Saga are the only ones that come to mind, though. They showed that the basic D20 system could be a bit flexible in execution, but not a lot of other d20 games bothered.
Also 5e D&D. :D It's still the d20 system, just cleaned up and modified to suit a game of fantasy dungeon crawling...
True! It was late at night and I was more focused on the branding for the example. I haven't managed to play more than a single game of 5e as well.
Quote from: S'mon;1021716Also 5e D&D. :D It's still the d20 system, just cleaned up and modified to suit a game of fantasy dungeon crawling...
Trol troll troll your boat...
Quote from: finarvyn;1021615(2) I like D&D, but don't think that D&D is the only way one can play a game. My concern is that Modiphius has created its own system (which I happen not to like very much) and then is trying to make it work for every genre they can. Same complaint that folks have with d20, but with the Modiphius house rules. I'm not sure that this is any different than the "make everything d20" complaint, only with a different game system because now we get Star Trek and Conan and John Carter shoehorned into similar rules sets. :(
I respect and understand why some do not like the system as is. Yet if rpg company XYZ creates it's own rpg system. It makes sense for them to build all the rpgs they own around it. Granted sometimes the rules may not fit. At the same time having too many different rpgs rulesets can be confusing as well. From what I can see looking in the hobby is seems to be going more towards narrative style of roleplaying. I personally think it's a good thing in some respects. Some I don't as I prefer a much more gamist, Simulationist approach myself. The profitable rpgs seem to be the more narrative ones. Rpg companies can and should focus on rules that are profitable as well as enjoyed by those who play rpgs.
Quote from: Omega;1021926Trol troll troll your boat...
C'mon! It was a great joke! :p
Quote from: Ulairi;1021564You may like them. I may not. That's personal taste. Market power? Not really a way to argue against that. D&D makes up the market. It is the market. Once you account for D&D and games based on the engine (PF, OSR, etc) there are very few dollars left.
The 5E books have sold around 10,000,000 copies. Most other publishers sell less than 10,000 copies.
Wait, you were
seriously arguing dicepool systems have no market power:D?
Shadowrun, Exalted, World of Darkness and quite a few others laugh at the assertion, so I don't even have to refute it;).
Quote from: sureshot;1021934I respect and understand why some do not like the system as is. Yet if rpg company XYZ creates it's own rpg system. It makes sense for them to build all the rpgs they own around it. Granted sometimes the rules may not fit. At the same time having too many different rpgs rulesets can be confusing as well. From what I can see looking in the hobby is seems to be going more towards narrative style of roleplaying. I personally think it's a good thing in some respects. Some I don't as I prefer a much more gamist, Simulationist approach myself. The profitable rpgs seem to be the more narrative ones. Rpg companies can and should focus on rules that are profitable as well as enjoyed by those who play rpgs.
I get that, and if I owned my own RPG company I would probably do the same thing -- develop my own house system and then do everything I could with it. I'm just bummed when I find that I like the subject but am not really happy with the system. I have the same issue with Savage Worlds, in that I'm sort of "meh" on the system but love the settings that have been released (such as Solomon Kane).
Quote from: finarvyn;1022717I get that, and if I owned my own RPG company I would probably do the same thing -- develop my own house system and then do everything I could with it. I'm just bummed when I find that I like the subject but am not really happy with the system. I have the same issue with Savage Worlds, in that I'm sort of "meh" on the system but love the settings that have been released (such as Solomon Kane).
This may the most reasonable expression of dislike I've ever seen on this site :eek:
Quote from: AsenRG;1022676Wait, you were seriously arguing dicepool systems have no market power:D?
Shadowrun, Exalted, World of Darkness and quite a few others laugh at the assertion, so I don't even have to refute it;).
Shadowrun, Exalted, World of Darkness, and quite a few others make up a small fraction of one percent of the market.
I'm not commenting on the quality of the games. I'm just commenting about their place in the market. D&D (and its derivatives) earn almost every $1 that is spent in the hobby.
World of Darkness has no market sway anymore and hasn't in a decade. World of Darkness was a fad from the 90's.
Quote from: Ulairi;1022721Shadowrun, Exalted, World of Darkness, and quite a few others make up a small fraction of one percent of the market.
I'm not commenting on the quality of the games. I'm just commenting about their place in the market. D&D (and its derivatives) earn almost every $1 that is spent in the hobby.
World of Darkness has no market sway anymore and hasn't in a decade. World of Darkness was a fad from the 90's.
At one point, Exalted was among the top 5 best-selling RPGs, goibg by some of the accessible data. So I still find your statement laughable.
It also reminds me why for a long time, I used to agree that D&D has a narrowing effect on the viewpoint of gamers (then I found equally narrow minds among fans of other systems and had to revise my views).
No, D&D isn't the end all be all, not even in market terms. It's the biggest, but doesn't outclass all competitors, like it presumably used to.
Quote from: AsenRG;1022737At one point, Exalted was among the top 5 best-selling RPGs, goibg by some of the accessible data. So I still find your statement laughable.
It also reminds me why for a long time, I used to agree that D&D has a narrowing effect on the viewpoint of gamers (then I found equally narrow minds among fans of other systems and had to revise my views).
No, D&D isn't the end all be all, not even in market terms. It's the biggest, but doesn't outclass all competitors, like it presumably used to.
TBH based on playing out in the wider UK world (at 5 or 6 conventions a year and at two local weekly clubs) I do see D&D currently outclassing all competitors. All the new people who turn up at the two clubs do so because they want to play, or learn to play, D&D (5e). We have at least two 5e games running all the time at both clubs. I have friends who own a board game cafe and they run D&D 5e sessions for newbies due to demand (although anyone can rent a table to play a board game or rpg).
This resurgence of D&D is down to much more widespread acceptance of rpgs as a social leisure activity in the last few years.
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;1022842TBH based on playing out in the wider UK world (at 5 or 6 conventions a year and at two local weekly clubs) I do see D&D currently outclassing all competitors. All the new people who turn up at the two clubs do so because they want to play, or learn to play, D&D (5e). We have at least two 5e games running all the time at both clubs. I have friends who own a board game cafe and they run D&D 5e sessions for newbies due to demand (although anyone can rent a table to play a board game or rpg).
This resurgence of D&D is down to much more widespread acceptance of rpgs as a social leisure activity in the last few years.
Seconded
D&D can and will remain the 800lb Gorilla in terms of rpgs. Between shows like the Big Bang Theory and Stranger Things showing it being played. To tabletop rpgs being considered a less harmful alternative than MMOs that is not going to change. Pathfinder can still give D&D a run for it's money. Yet beyond edition warriors to many it's the same damn thing. Not to mention the first has a cool sounding name for a rpg. The second sounds like the model of a car. Fellow gamers can deny that reality all they like it's won't make it any less true.
Quote from: AsenRG;1022737At one point, Exalted was among the top 5 best-selling RPGs, goibg by some of the accessible data. So I still find your statement laughable.
It also reminds me why for a long time, I used to agree that D&D has a narrowing effect on the viewpoint of gamers (then I found equally narrow minds among fans of other systems and had to revise my views).
No, D&D isn't the end all be all, not even in market terms. It's the biggest, but doesn't outclass all competitors, like it presumably used to.
Top 5 in the RPGs doesn't impress me at all. And how many years ago was that?
D&D 5E has sold 10,000,000 copies. It is the market. I'm old enough to remember when D&D wasn't so market dominate as it is and I'm old enough to remember when it was. White Wolf, Palladium, SJ Games, etc, who in the 90's were selling hundreds of thousands of every book they released are lucky now to sell 10,000 copies of a book.
What do you mean by outclass? You mean in quality? I agree it doesn't. In volume? It absolutely does. There isn't even a close second.
Quote from: sureshot;1022845Seconded
D&D can and will remain the 800lb Gorilla in terms of rpgs. Between shows like the Big Bang Theory and Stranger Things showing it being played. To tabletop rpgs being considered a less harmful alternative than MMOs that is not going to change. Pathfinder can still give D&D a run for it's money. Yet beyond edition warriors to many it's the same damn thing. Not to mention the first has a cool sounding name for a rpg. The second sounds like the model of a car. Fellow gamers can deny that reality all they like it's won't make it any less true.
Pathfinder is D&D. It's built on the 3.x engine. Pathfinder sales have fallen off a cliff and the PFS activities have shrunk to. Pathfinder was successful because 4E was such a failure.
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;1022842TBH based on playing out in the wider UK world (at 5 or 6 conventions a year and at two local weekly clubs) I do see D&D currently outclassing all competitors. All the new people who turn up at the two clubs do so because they want to play, or learn to play, D&D (5e). We have at least two 5e games running all the time at both clubs. I have friends who own a board game cafe and they run D&D 5e sessions for newbies due to demand (although anyone can rent a table to play a board game or rpg).
This resurgence of D&D is down to much more widespread acceptance of rpgs as a social leisure activity in the last few years.
I don't think that D&D is more accepted now then it ever was. I never had any issues being "socially acceptable" to play D&D. It could be. I don't know. I do think that now we are having the first generation of kids that grew up with parents that played table top games hit their teens and twenties. I mean, if somebody was in high school in the 80's they are now having kids in college or in their mid twenties. I'm sure that helps.
Quote from: Ulairi;1022852Pathfinder is D&D. It's built on the 3.x engine. Pathfinder sales have fallen off a cliff and the PFS activities have shrunk to. Pathfinder was successful because 4E was such a failure.
The order of this is incorrect. 4e was going to fail, period. People/gamers were making crap up about it long before it was a thing. The fact that it changed too much, despite the market research saying this is what players wanted, only helped it's failure, but 4th edition never stood a chance.
What truly killed 4e was the OGL. It allowed Paizo to effectively, and legally, steal years of design work by another company and reprint it as it's own work. Thus allowing those disgruntled to stay with a product that they wanted or were used to.
What's killing PFRPG is 5e's return to the past.
You have to realize, most gamers absolutely HATE change. They ALWAYS assume it'll be bad. Even when common wisdom proves them wrong.
I have to agree with Christopher. Rpg gamers sre notorious for hating change imo.
Quote from: sureshot;1022905I have to agree with Christopher. Rpg gamers sre notorioys for hating change imo.
Classic Traveller gamers. 'nuf sed.
Quote from: finarvyn;1022717I get that, and if I owned my own RPG company I would probably do the same thing -- develop my own house system and then do everything I could with it.
I think that on the whole, unless you had Hasbro levels of money, it would make a lot more sense to use a system that made it compatible with the most popular existing games.
And as for Pathfinder, it's ultimately doomed to go the way of White Wolf. Whenever another game has become a truly serious contender against D&D, it's because D&D was being horribly mismanaged. If the ship gets righted, then the competitor starts to gradually lose market share until it's either reduced down to a strictly second-rate level (IF the company in question makes adjustments based on understanding that their bonanza days are over), or it goes broke (because it was under the delusion that it would somehow be able to keep being as strong when faced with a competent D&D as its opposition).
Eh, Paizo will be fine, they're a storefront first and foremost.
I don't think Pathfinder will affected. I do think the developers stubborn refusal to listen to any constructive criticism is what will hurt them both short term and long term. During the playtest for the gun rules they were told many, many times to not publish them as they are now. Instead they gave the usual " we hear you and taking what you said under advisement." Last minute before the book went to print it was a polite "too bad so sad they stay as they are". Fans like myself have asked for a proper middle ground in terms of design. Nothing too powerful yet also not too weak in terms of feats, archetypes etc.. It usually ends up being the second. Either the feats, archetypes are not worth the paper they are printed on or it's too good and it needs to be nerfed.
At this point given that Pathfinder is in it's eight year of development. It's the developers being stubborn and then wondering why their books get negative feedback from the fans. Or they bend over backwards to accommodate society play and nerf something to turn it from a viable option to something fit only to use as toilet paper. More and more I'm seeing in reviews at least the comment of "whatever rpg the developers are playing it's certainly not the one that myself and my group is playing" style of comments. They also seem to think that overly fluffy descriptions will hide poor game mechanics. One can write three-four paragraphs of fluff for a +1 feat it's till going to be nothing more than a +1 feat.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1023172I think that on the whole, unless you had Hasbro levels of money, it would make a lot more sense to use a system that made it compatible with the most popular existing games.
This.
D&D is great than 90% of the market. Why not, especially when the OSR lets you, let people play your game and they already know how to play! A big obstacle for the average consumer is learning new rules. Already knowing how to play makes that hurdle much smaller.
Quote from: Ulairi;1023278This.
D&D is great than 90% of the market. Why not, especially when the OSR lets you, let people play your game and they already know how to play! A big obstacle for the average consumer is learning new rules. Already knowing how to play makes that hurdle much smaller.
Why would it make more sense to use inferior rules?
If you've any pride in what your doing you don't use substandard materials.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1023172I think that on the whole, unless you had Hasbro levels of money, it would make a lot more sense to use a system that made it compatible with the most popular existing games.
Do you believe that D&D's mechanics are the best mechanics for all genres? I don't. This is not to say I couldn't shoe-horn any genre into 5e, I just think it'd be clunky and a pain in the ass to develop for.
The real truth is: unless it says D&D offically on the cover of your product, it's rarely going to sell in the numbers that approach most official D&D products. So the point then becomes why not do your own thing and build your own following? Or do both - multi-system games and leverage D&D for your house-system edition. (that's what we did)
Quote from: RPGPundit;1023172I think that on the whole, unless you had Hasbro levels of money, it would make a lot more sense to use a system that made it compatible with the most popular existing games.
And your own TV/Movie franchise to base the yet-another-game-system on.
Quote from: tenbones;1023327Do you believe that D&D's mechanics are the best mechanics for all genres? I don't. This is not to say I couldn't shoe-horn any genre into 5e, I just think it'd be clunky and a pain in the ass to develop for.
No, not every genre. But a shitload of them, as the OSR has proven.
And probably most of the genres Modiphius has covered, for example.
Well I just dropped $575 for the Star Trek Borg Cube.
I love me some Star Trek. I'm fine with the 2d20 system. I'd prefer the old CODA system but this works.
Quote from: Ulairi;1022851Top 5 in the RPGs doesn't impress me at all.
...OK, then I simply have nothing to discuss with you. At least when related to the industry at large:).
Quote from: RPGPundit;1023713No, not every genre. But a shitload of them, as the OSR has proven.
And probably most of the genres Modiphius has covered, for example.
Despite what you think, the OSR has "proven" no such thing, Pundit. It only prove that you can stuff square pegs into round holes if you try hard enough that the pegs stop being square.
In other words, nothing we didn't already know;).
Maybe I should reinstitute my "no D&D-derived games" policy.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1019405This is my experience with the Conan quickstart. I do not like systems that make me 'hostile' towards the players.
I found it quite refreshing for a change, and
I like variety, just as in the CORTEX Marvel Superhero game where player superheroics power up the GM's pool to deal dreadfulness from the NPCs.
Quote from: tzunder;1024140I found it quite refreshing for a change, and I like variety, just as in the CORTEX Marvel Superhero game where player superheroics power up the GM's pool to deal dreadfulness from the NPCs.
Anyone know the first RPG that used this sort of mechanic: where the players using a particular power or point gives the GM something to use against the players? The first I saw of it was in the Dragonlance SAGA game (later much improved by the Marvel SAGA system) in '96.
Quote from: hedgehobbit;1024403Anyone know the first RPG that used this sort of mechanic: where the players using a particular power or point gives the GM something to use against the players? The first I saw of it was in the Dragonlance SAGA game (later much improved by the Marvel SAGA system) in '96.
Actually, that mechanic only showed up in the Marvel iteration, although Dragonlance did have a sort of prototype with "if you play a Dragon card and fail, it's a mishap."
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1024429Actually, that mechanic only showed up in the Marvel iteration, although Dragonlance did have a sort of prototype with "if you play a Dragon card and fail, it's a mishap."
I only played the Marvel version, I guess I just assumed that the Dragon cards from Dragonlance worked the same way.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1023172I think that on the whole, unless you had Hasbro levels of money, it would make a lot more sense to use a system that made it compatible with the most popular existing games.
Assuming your primary goal is to sell a bunch of games, instead of producing the game you really want as a labor of love.
Though that raises the question of why a writer that would develop their own system for a particular game as a labor of love would then use that same system for a wide variety of games. Seems somewhat the worst of both worlds.
Quote from: Ulairi;1023809Well I just dropped $575 for the Star Trek Borg Cube.
What the actual fucking fuck?
I hope said Borg Cube is covered in diamond dust and comes in a white Rhino leather box.
Quote from: One Horse Town;1024472What the actual fucking fuck?
I hope said Borg Cube is covered in diamond dust and comes in a white Rhino leather box.
I'm a sucker for Star Trek stuff and I got a nice bonus. It includes a lot of stuff.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1023173And as for Pathfinder, it's ultimately doomed to go the way of White Wolf. Whenever another game has become a truly serious contender against D&D, it's because D&D was being horribly mismanaged. If the ship gets righted, then the competitor starts to gradually lose market share until it's either reduced down to a strictly second-rate level (IF the company in question makes adjustments based on understanding that their bonanza days are over), or it goes broke (because it was under the delusion that it would somehow be able to keep being as strong when faced with a competent D&D as its opposition).
While I do think that Paizo has had some issues of late, I also think that Pathfinder & 5e target significantly different gamers.
Plus - while Pathfinder has lost market %, from everything I've read their sales haven't actually suffered, 5e has just expanded the market. Which - is great. D&D is the way most TTRPG players are introduced to the hobby, so it makes total sense that it be a bit on the light side. (Not that 5e is truly lite - I'd say that it's middling, but with enough gated mechanics behind class/level that it's not difficult to get into either.) Pathfinder's crunchier and more customizable. They scratch different itches. (I like both - though I haven't gotten to play much 5e.)
Frankly - D&D doing well is good for the RPG market as a whole. Which - is true of the market leader of most markets - ESPECIALLY niche ones. The general rule is that the market leader focuses on expanding the market (not out of the goodness of their hearts - but because since they already dominate, they don't gain much by trying to steal sales) while the other contenders try to siphon off market share from said market leader, at least partially getting consumers that the market leader might lose anyway (because they don't like the market leader's product for whatever reason - but are at least okay with the idea of it).
Heck - that's why most soup commercials compare themselves to Campbell's (at least implicitly) but Campbell's commercials just go "MMMmmmmm Soup!" - because they know that if you buy soup, there's a good chance that it's Campbell's.
Pathfinder has a relic 3e-fan population still buying PF books. A substantial population, probably still bigger than the 4e D&D fandom EVER was! But I'm not seeing the new converts coming - that pretty much stopped dead with the release of 5e in late 2014.
And if anything, from what I see 5e D&D is doing even better now than on release! The new approach has been hugely, hugely successful in generating new players. Who mostly buy a PHB (some buy nothing, some buy more). WoTC makes money from that, but they also generate a network effect - the more dominant 5e is, the more it becomes.
Pathfinder has a great Beginner Box, by far the best starter set ever produced (Mentzer Red Box might edge it for the player, but for GMs the PF BB has no match). But their core model is to sell huge piles of crud to a slowly shrinking market.
Quote from: AsenRG;1024137Despite what you think, the OSR has "proven" no such thing, Pundit. It only prove that you can stuff square pegs into round holes if you try hard enough that the pegs stop being square.
In other words, nothing we didn't already know;).
Well then, defend your position, bitch: which OSR game do you want to claim is a 'square peg in a round hole'? What kind of RPG genre absolutely demands dice pools or fucking hero-point mechanics to the extent that the OSR failed at emulating it?
Quote from: Ulairi;1023809Well I just dropped $575 for the Star Trek Borg Cube.
I love me some Star Trek. I'm fine with the 2d20 system. I'd prefer the old CODA system but this works.
What a complete waste of time/money.
Quote from: S'mon;1024558Pathfinder has a great Beginner Box, by far the best starter set ever produced (Mentzer Red Box might edge it for the player, but for GMs the PF BB has no match). But their core model is to sell huge piles of crud to a slowly shrinking market.
PF does have a great starter set, but the one for WEG's Star Wars was pretty darned good as well. It should be considered in the "best ever" contest.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1024883What a complete waste of time/money.
According to who? I'm not a trek fan but I'll drop money on things I like. People pay more than that for consoles with no games I'm sure Ulairi I'll get plenty of fun from his purchase.
Quote from: HorusArisen;1024890According to who? I'm not a trek fan but I'll drop money on things I like. People pay more than that for consoles with no games I'm sure Ulairi I'll get plenty of fun from his purchase.
About a decade ago? Wizards of the Coast got into the mini business, and one of them was a massive Red Dragon. They sold it for about 150USD. I bought and have used it all of once. About a month after I bought. I still don't regret it every time I look at it. And I do that once a day. After wiping it down.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1024894About a decade ago? Wizards of the Coast got into the mini business, and one of them was a massive Red Dragon. They sold it for about 150USD. I bought and have used it all of once. About a month after I bought. I still don't regret it every time I look at it. And I do that once a day. After wiping it down.
Exactly, value is completely in the eye of the beholder. And that Borg box contains a shed load if I recall, years of gaming.
The people who usual spout "what a waste of money" style nonsense are the same one buying their lunch/supper at restaurants every day when they can make and/or bring their own from home. Just have to buy coffee at the nearest Starbucks or similar place when they can make or brew their own. Or have access to public transport close by yet keeping driving their car to work and need to buy gas once or twice a week. It's a glass house kind of thing.
Modiphius' John Carter kickstarter just wrapped with over 225k pounds. While you can complain about the rules they use, it's nice to see John Carter getting a full color w/ miniatures treatment.
I find it a lot with RPG fans that if someone doesn't like a system so no one else should.
Quote from: hedgehobbit;1024928Modiphius' John Carter kickstarter just wrapped with over 225k pounds. While you can complain about the rules they use, it's nice to see John Carter getting a full color w/ miniatures treatment.
I didn't go in for the minis as it's not my bag but they looked great. Went for all the PDF’s though.
Quote from: HorusArisen;1024936I find it a lot with RPG fans that if someone doesn't like a system so no one else should.
Agreed and seconded. To make matters worse they will go out of their way to point out the flaws of the rpg they don't like. While ignoring the exact same flaws in the rpgs they do like. Kind of like it's not Ok for rpgs companies they don't like to make money yet it's OK for the ones they do like.
Quote from: sureshot;1024946Agreed and seconded. To make matters worse they will go out of their way to point out the flaws of the rpg they don't like. While ignoring the exact same flaws in the rpgs they do like. Kind of like it's not Ok for rpgs companies they don't like to make money yet it's OK for the ones they do like.
If it's not my fun it's badwrongfun lol
Quote from: HorusArisen;1024950If it's not my fun it's badwrongfun lol
I can accept not liking a rpg. What I always disliked is those that hate change yet instead of coming out and saying so. They think that by adding "it's not that I'm against change" then proceed to show they are very much against it. Then wonder why other gamers call them out on their bullshit.
Quote from: sureshot;1024984Then wonder why other gamers call them out on their bullshit.
Ya know what's bullshit? Finding a thread about a game you're not even interested in and filling it up with page after page of bitching about gamers.
Quote from: hedgehobbit;1025081Ya know what's bullshit? Finding a thread about a game you're not even interested in and filling it up with page after page of bitching about gamers.
Normally I agree but conversation on the game stopped pages ago.
Quote from: sureshot;1024946Agreed and seconded. To make matters worse they will go out of their way to point out the flaws of the rpg they don't like. While ignoring the exact same flaws in the rpgs they do like. Kind of like it's not Ok for rpgs companies they don't like to make money yet it's OK for the ones they do like.
I'm a bit odd then, because I tend to point out the flaws in systems I like the most (and am usually playing). If I don't like it, I don't even bother to comment.
True but too often I see gamers not even bother to read a rpg and call it crap because it's not a rehash of a favored rpg. Last time I checked a few comments is not page after page. If hyperbole floats your boat go for it.