TheRPGSite

So, what kind of rules and game is needed to get the MMO feel on the tabletop?

How would you go about it?

Necromunda, Gorka Morka, or Mordheim, with every player controlling one model, maybe 2.

Pretty much any game that focuses primarily on character progression in terms of items and levels (over story and immerison) has pretty much got that covered. Basically if you find in a game you are killing stuff purely for the gold and xp rather than to prevent a war or save a princess than you are "farming gold" and "grinding level" as they say in MMO-land.

Perhaps the one rule to rethink is death. In an MMO death is just a temporary set-back. If you wanted an authentic MMO feel you'd probably want to factor that in somehow.

The other key aspects of the MMO (graphics, on-demand play rather than pe-arranged sessions planned in advance and large fluid community as opposed to a small, regular party) can't really be captured by rules.

MMO's on the table top? That's easy since a game for that has already been published...

Click here to learn more about it. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/welcome):devil:

Powers that force other characters to do stuff in a very gamist way. Stuff like the Crusader's Challenge and other abilities. "Must attack ally closest to you", "pushed two squares" and such.

Timer on death is a good one. Farming gold too.

Quote from: Soylent Green;317512The other key aspects of the MMO (graphics, on-demand play rather than pe-arranged sessions planned in advance and large fluid community as opposed to a small, regular party) can't really be captured by rules.

Actually, the graphics is the easiest part to authentically recreate with a mixture of maps, illustrations, and narrative descriptions. I would think it would take less time, since a GM has the advantage of firing the players imagination instead of making the player travel all over the area map to find the interesting locales.

The on-demand play is also easy to recreate. In MMORPG's they are called Quests, and lend themselves to character advancement. Some quests are for resources to build items, other quests are for unique in-game items, and yet other quests are for badges or titles or similar social enhancements.

Designing for a large fluid community... hmm well... This type of design is marked by lots of random and not-so-random encounters between different groups of players as they interact while seeking to complete quests. This can be easily simulated for a small group of players using a mixture of other players, and NPC's. NPC's are primarily responsible for giving out quests as well.  

In the game world there's PvP areas, and areas free from PvP, there are Pvg areas (Player-vs.-Game), and non Pvg areas. There are protected areas where the players are safe from being harmed. All easy to recreate.

The hardest thing to recreate are the mass battles where hundreds of players simultaneously compete for fortune or glory. This is traditionally where tournaments and conventions fill the gap, although tournaments and conventions represent a very expensive counterpart in terms of time or money as compared to an online gathering.

In the early days of North America, for generations, the natives used handcrafted obsidian and flint blades for hunting, for their weapons, (Spear & Arrow tips). These weapons didn't rust, they were sharper and kept their sharpness much longer before requiring reworking. They also were more durable and lasted much longer than Iron weapons carried by the new world settlers. Some families kept their weapons (and tools) in use over a span of many generations. They were also very expensive to make or create, in terms of the investment of time required to craft even one blade.

The iron weapons carried by the settlers were much easier to manufacture in quantity (So were commonly available), required much more maintenance and care (Making them marketable items, intensifying economic requirements and helping to create trade opportunities when the baldes needed to be re-sharpened, and old weapons broke, or rusted.

With iron weapons the enhanced opportunities for trade combined with the easy availability of large quantities of weapons were attractive elements for the native americans. Over a relatively short span of time, the skills needed to produce superior obsidian and flint blades were lost to the tribes as the younger generation preferred trading for an inexpensive iron blade that could easily be replaced as opposed to taking the time to learn how to handcraft their own personal weapons.

So too, with the MMORPG as compared with an RPG. Pen & paper RPG's are superior in almost every way, when it comes to helping players create interactive experiences and stories, and MMORPG's don't even come close to what can be achieved by one good GM.

They make up for it though to some degree, using a dedicated team to mass produce art, objects, and story elements, which are then carefully pre-placed into the game world. MMORPG's also make extensive use of random generators for encounters and treasure drops. A GM would be acused of having an imbalanced game or playing unfairly if they did the same thing.

Which leads us to one notable weakness of RPG's, and that is that the players can challenge the GM over just about anything (and the players do...). With an MMORPG the rules are fixed, firm, inflexible so the players focus on playing the game. With RPGs, the rules are dependent upon the GM, and an entirely new game can be created where the players push the limits of the rules, stretching them to see how far they can get, before the rules break.

Quote from: greylond;317513MMO's on the table top? That's easy since a game for that has already been published...

Click here to learn more about it. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/welcome):devil:

Oh snap?

Also already been done...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everquest_Role-Playing_Game

Not to beg the question, but which parts of the MMO feeling?

Some people like the fact that the world's fleshed out and you can wander around finding easter eggs; that, I guess you can do either with a firmly established published setting so they can go "ooh, that's where X battle took place, they still haven't rebuild, eh?" or give a lot of specific detail and continuity in descriptions of places and people.

Some like the level and gear treadmill; I daresay that's easy enough to ramp up from how it's done in a lot of tabletop RPGs.

Some like trying out specific class/talent builds; 4e nailed that particular part of the experience well.

I'm sure I'm missing other aspects. The old classic Bartle MUD "player type" writeups probably have some more pointers.

There is also the massive interaction in what is essentially nought-but-combat... Really, for the amount of freedom, and the pace of combat, tabletop character scale wargames are probably pretty close fits.

Quote from: ticopelp;317688Oh snap?

Oh yawn, more like.

Quote from: greylond;317513MMO's on the table top? That's easy since a game for that has already been published...

Click here to learn more about it. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/welcome):devil:

I didn't know folks in the Interweb could be so clever!

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;317884I didn't know folks in the Interweb could be so clever!

Seanchai

Yeah, that was full of useful ideas.

Quote from: Seanchai;317884I didn't know folks in the Interweb could be so clever!

Seanchai

Never claimed to be... ;)

Quote from: One Horse Town;317504So, what kind of rules and game is needed to get the MMO feel on the tabletop?

How would you go about it?

Never played a MMO, and I wouldn't (go about it).

Still, I can trust forums to give me a complete, unbiased picture of course. So, with that in mind...

You'd need lots of levels, and lots of level-appropriate gear around. Mostly level-appropriate monsters to kill, in the somewhat sandboxy campaign world. Shops to buy and sell weapons, armour and magic items. Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Spirit (or whatever; something for powers and mana) and Charisma (for buying and selling, I assume; maybe it affects "luck" somehow too). HP, Mana, Fatigue(?). Tank, DPS, Healer, CC, Buffer; maybe hybrids as well. I guess that respawning thing could simply be due to certain areas containing rifts/portals/something similar. Pay money per month/week/session for the premises and/or GM. Keep track of the "world" via some kind of network (e.g., RPGA?) Um, that's all I got. Looks a lot like D&D actually, but twisted into a peculiar shape. So you could start with D&D as a base, and go from there. I mean, that's what they did anyway, right?

OK, yes, I cheated and went to Wikipedia. This MMO shit is seriously weird.

Quote from: paris80;317953Never played a MMO, and I wouldn't (go about it).

Still, I can trust forums to give me a complete, unbiased picture of course. So, with that in mind...

You'd need lots of levels, and lots of level-appropriate gear around. Mostly level-appropriate monsters to kill, in the somewhat sandboxy campaign world. Shops to buy and sell weapons, armour and magic items. Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Spirit (or whatever; something for powers and mana) and Charisma (for buying and selling, I assume; maybe it affects "luck" somehow too). HP, Mana, Fatigue(?). Tank, DPS, Healer, CC, Buffer; maybe hybrids as well. I guess that respawning thing could simply be due to certain areas containing rifts/portals/something similar. Pay money per month/week/session for the premises and/or GM. Keep track of the "world" via some kind of network (e.g., RPGA?) Um, that's all I got. Looks a lot like D&D actually, but twisted into a peculiar shape. So you could start with D&D as a base, and go from there. I mean, that's what they did anyway, right?

OK, yes, I cheated and went to Wikipedia. This MMO shit is seriously weird.

It is also seriously boring. I'd rather put my head through a wall than play an MMO. I feel like MMO players should go back to playing chess in yahoo chat and save themselves the monthly fee.

Yawn.  More commentary from people who likely have never actually played an MMO, or are basing their entire opinion on some shit Korean game they played 10 years ago.

12 million people aren't playing Warcraft because it's "seriously boring".  

And OHT, I think the key is probably just better gear systems (more stuff with stat bonuses and the like), and understanding WoW class design.  Each class in WoW has it's own unique mechanic, that in some cases can play out almost like it's own little minigame.  You need to make sure each class has it's role, and each class has it's own fun things to do that feel very different from what other classes do.  

D&D 3 doesn't do a terrible job of it, but it could probably be more streamlined to provide the right experience.

World wise though, I'd go sandbox, totally, like old UO, or at least semi-sandbox like WoW.  Part of the fun of an MMO is being able to totally make your own pace and goals, and there's always something different you could be doing.  Also, contrary to popular belief, story and MMO are not mutually exclusive terms.  WoW, especially in the new Lich King expansion, has some incredible story lines in it, if a bit awkwardly executed at times, but the nice thing is that you can generally take each part at your leisure.  Not to say that's the only one that has it's own story, shit even EQ technically had a fairly involved plot and backstory back in the day.

I played WoW, briefly. It is boring.

Quote from: greylond;318004I played WoW, briefly. It is boring.

I bet you hate D&D too.

I think JA hit on one important thing about the MMORPG (in this case I am thinking about WoW) - each class is unique, offering up its strengths.

These strengths become evident when players work together in instances (dungeons) and raids. In fact, players must work together to succeed. So, success hinges on team work, and good team work is unavoidable to succeed.

Another very important element of the MMORPG (and, again, I am thinking about WoW) is gear. The equipment that a character wears and uses plays a significant part in his/her ability to succeed.

MMORPGs (WoW is still the example here) are also very combat focused. Most of the quests are about killing things and taking their stuff, and the dungeons and raids certainly are.      

Those are some of my observations.

Well, let's see...

Every player has a permanent Resurrection spell on them, so death is meaningless and everyone is immortal.

Same with every monster in the game.

The uncivilized areas of the world are populated with immortal monsters who just sort of wander back and forth. So create some random monster tables with a 100% chance of encounter whenever you so much as step outside the city limits.

Whenever the PCs complete an epic, world-saving quest, they will have to wait in line behind the other group of guys who just killed the same dire threat to the world.

All members of the same "faction" have some sort of permanent mind-control preventing them from attacking anyone who's on their "side," and these sides are clearly delineated.

However, beyond this arbitrary division, morality doesn't actually exist. Players will do anything and everything for money no matter who they have to slaughter. (So not much of a change from regular tabletop roleplaying, nyuk nyuk.)

"Banks" are actually massive storage units that will hold anything for you for no charge, including stacks of meat, furs, rare eggs... so they either have magical refrigeration units back there, or smell terrible.

No one but your party is motivated to do so much as get out of bed. Save my son. Find me some berries. Fetch me my stick which I dropped forty yards away. Restore the honor of my family and wreak vengeance on those who have sullied my good name. Nah, I'm really busy here, you do it.

For the most part, nothing anyone does changes anything about the world. Oh, you say you wiped out the Iron Slavers? Sorry, they're back, because none of them can be killed. But then again, they can't really do much but wander back and forth, so we're safe.

All in good fun, I like WoW and played it for a number of years.

Quote from: ticopelp;318024Well, let's see...

Every player has a permanent Resurrection spell on them, so death is meaningless and everyone is immortal.

Same with every monster in the game.

The uncivilized areas of the world are populated with immortal monsters who just sort of wander back and forth. So create some random monster tables with a 100% chance of encounter whenever you so much as step outside the city limits.

Whenever the PCs complete an epic, world-saving quest, they will have to wait in line behind the other group of guys who just killed the same dire threat to the world.

All members of the same "faction" have some sort of permanent mind-control preventing them from attacking anyone who's on their "side," and these sides are clearly delineated.

However, beyond this arbitrary division, morality doesn't actually exist. Players will do anything and everything for money no matter who they have to slaughter. (So not much of a change from regular tabletop roleplaying, nyuk nyuk.)

"Banks" are actually massive storage units that will hold anything for you for no charge, including stacks of meat, furs, rare eggs... so they either have magical refrigeration units back there, or smell terrible.

No one but your party is motivated to do so much as get out of bed. Save my son. Find me some berries. Fetch me my stick which I dropped forty yards away. Restore the honor of my family and wreak vengeance on those who have sullied my good name. Nah, I'm really busy here, you do it.

For the most part, nothing anyone does changes anything about the world. Oh, you say you wiped out the Iron Slavers? Sorry, they're back, because none of them can be killed. But then again, they can't really do much but wander back and forth, so we're safe.

All in good fun, I like WoW and played it for a number of years.

This is exactly like MMOs.
But lets add....

i) You can't take anything from a Player you kill or from an ally that has been killed.
ii) A creature may attack you with a double bladed axe but that does not mean it actually has to have an axe or a wepon of any description at all.
iii) as Monsters do their walk back and forth thing the best way to find out how to get past them is to try it a few tiems die and then come back and do it again.
iv) Pets....
v) It takes exactly the same number of hits for a 10th level fighterer to kill a 10th level critter that it does for a 40th level fighter to kill a 40th level critter

MMOs are like cute blonde chicks. They are great to look at, fun to jump into the first few time but ultimately just get repetitive and end up costing you a load of money and sucking up all the time you used to spend with your mates or watching the telly.

Quote from: J Arcane;318015I bet you hate D&D too.

It's very boring. It has no right being fun. I can get an equivalent experience by playing Diablo while talking on the phone. At least Diablo had some forward momentum. Jumping out of my nighelf tree and praying countless times for holy light to smite some strange unorganized enemy creatures that all the other nightelves tolerate so I can get enough experience to travel isn't my idea of a great time.

Quote from: jibbajibba;318032This is exactly like MMOs.
But lets add....

i) You can't take anything from a Player you kill or from an ally that has been killed.
ii) A creature may attack you with a double bladed axe but that does not mean it actually has to have an axe or a wepon of any description at all.
iii) as Monsters do their walk back and forth thing the best way to find out how to get past them is to try it a few tiems die and then come back and do it again.
iv) Pets....
v) It takes exactly the same number of hits for a 10th level fighterer to kill a 10th level critter that it does for a 40th level fighter to kill a 40th level critter

MMOs are like cute blonde chicks. They are great to look at, fun to jump into the first few time but ultimately just get repetitive and end up costing you a load of money and sucking up all the time you used to spend with your mates or watching the telly.

I think to get a real MMO feel you should run the game daily at your local game store and award experience to whoever comes. That way, the nerds that live at the game store get more powerful characters and the casual gamers with jobs or other hobbies get shit on.

Quote from: Cranewings;318038I think to get a real MMO feel you should run the game daily at your local game store and award experience to whoever comes. That way, the nerds that live at the game store get more powerful characters and the casual gamers with jobs or other hobbies get shit on.

Simulating endgame loot would be pretty brutal. Imagine playing the same module every week for a year, and at the every session the GM rolls percentile dice to see if that piece of gear you need has dropped... 5% chance! Aw, better luck next week. :D

Or it does drop and another player at the table just grabs it as you stand by helplessly.

Quote from: J Arcane;318015I bet you hate D&D too.

No, I LOVE D&D. What I hate is the 2 games that have come out in the last 9 or 10 years that have the "D&D" Brand Name on them but really aren't... ;)

Quote from: ticopelp;318024Well, let's see...

Every player has a permanent Resurrection spell on them, so death is meaningless and everyone is immortal.

Same with every monster in the game.

The uncivilized areas of the world are populated with immortal monsters who just sort of wander back and forth. So create some random monster tables with a 100% chance of encounter whenever you so much as step outside the city limits.

Whenever the PCs complete an epic, world-saving quest, they will have to wait in line behind the other group of guys who just killed the same dire threat to the world.

All members of the same "faction" have some sort of permanent mind-control preventing them from attacking anyone who's on their "side," and these sides are clearly delineated.

However, beyond this arbitrary division, morality doesn't actually exist. Players will do anything and everything for money no matter who they have to slaughter. (So not much of a change from regular tabletop roleplaying, nyuk nyuk.)

"Banks" are actually massive storage units that will hold anything for you for no charge, including stacks of meat, furs, rare eggs... so they either have magical refrigeration units back there, or smell terrible.

No one but your party is motivated to do so much as get out of bed. Save my son. Find me some berries. Fetch me my stick which I dropped forty yards away. Restore the honor of my family and wreak vengeance on those who have sullied my good name. Nah, I'm really busy here, you do it.

For the most part, nothing anyone does changes anything about the world. Oh, you say you wiped out the Iron Slavers? Sorry, they're back, because none of them can be killed. But then again, they can't really do much but wander back and forth, so we're safe.

All in good fun, I like WoW and played it for a number of years.

LOL! Hilarious!!

RPGPundit

Quote from: ticopelp;318024Well, let's see...

Every player has a permanent Resurrection spell on them, so death is meaningless and everyone is immortal.

I remember Everquest deaths that were far from meaningless, with massive Xp loss and dangerous, corpses retrievals that you had to get all your friends to help you with.

And I remember table top games in which characters died and got replaced with a new toon and nobody much cared or noticed. And just last week we had a TPK in the game I was playing in, except the GM decided to fudge things so we all lived anyway. Now how's that for meaningless?

It's all relative.

No, that last example is a case of a Bad GM. How are players expected to learn tactics if Death isn't a factor?...

Quote from: greylond;318509How are players expected to learn tactics if Death isn't a factor?...

Why must death be a factor when learning tactics?

Because, with Tactics you learn a lot when you lose. Death, in an RPG is a surefire way of letting the players know that they F'ed up. Unless you are playing in a "game" where the GM fudges die rolls.

Case in point, when the Military(any of them) teaches tactics, there are Wargames in which you "Die". In RPGs letting players get away with any lame-brain idea and them not dying will teach them nothing other than how to get over on a weak GM.

Quote from: greylond;318517Because, with Tactics you learn a lot when you lose. Death, in an RPG is a surefire way of letting the players know that they F'ed up. Unless you are playing in a "game" where the GM fudges die rolls.

Case in point, when the Military(any of them) teaches tactics, there are Wargames in which you "Die". In RPGs letting players get away with any lame-brain idea and them not dying will teach them nothing other than how to get over on a weak GM.

There are fates worse than death... ;)

I see what you mean, of course. But there are plenty of games, including RPGs - and even the odd atypical campaign, using systems most commonly played in "death mode" - in which character / avatar death is either not going to occur, or it's very unlikely. Presumably, other endings - or, indeed, "stumbling blocks" in some cases - replace death. It strikes me that tactics could still be learned just fine in this environment.

Something to point to here would be the genre of horror - not all fear is the fear of death, and all fears can be (more or less, admittedly) equal, when they are YOUR fears.

/ devil's advocate

So yeah, I don't _really_ know, because my players always have [their PC's] death hanging over their heads. :D

Ok, by "Death" I mean, anything that ends the playing of a Character, which is pretty much as close to "Losing" in a RPG that you can get. Sure there's other ways to learn Tactics, but nothing teaches better than when you lose, IMO.

Well, except that one time I played Call of Cthulu and my character died before he went Insane and I considered that a "Win"... ;)

Quote from: greylond;318509No, that last example is a case of a Bad GM. How are players expected to learn tactics if Death isn't a factor?...

Sure, but that's exactly my point, it's all relative and the ability and stlye of that makes it relative.

I was commenting on the above quote which suggested MMO suck because death is meaningless and treating that as some sort of absolute.

In my view, it all depends on the context and the above all the people involved.

If you have ever been in a good team in a MMO in and suddenly things go horribly wrong and the team's tanks tells the rest of the team    

When the team's tank sacrifices himself to allow the rest of the team to get out of the dungeon after things have suddenly go south, it's dramatic and far from meaningless. Yes, you know he will get better, but trust me , your heart is pounding and you feel extremely grateful, if nothing else becasue you know he has given up for you hours, days or even weeks worth of XP.

Sure there maybe players so jaded and so cynical that you don't feel the drama of  the moment. But then again, you can get kind of attitude same in tabletop, the classic "crap, the thief just got killed, let's go back to town and recruit a new one" sort of game. That's so cold.

Hence, my point, it's all relative.

Quote from: greylond;318537Ok, by "Death" I mean, anything that ends the playing of a Character, which is pretty much as close to "Losing" in a RPG that you can get. Sure there's other ways to learn Tactics, but nothing teaches better than when you lose, IMO.

Well, except that one time I played Call of Cthulu and my character died before he went Insane and I considered that a "Win"... ;)

In my superhero campaign random deaths in combat are really is not on the cards. It doesn't fit with the genre and the player know this. That said there is a lot at stake in the fight.

If the players lose a fight it means that whatever they wanted to achieve by the fight does not succeed. So the guy they wanted to arrest get's away or the people they wanted to rescue stay unrescued - all of which could invalidate sessions of investigation work needed to get to this point.

It also means they do not earn Karma (sort of like XP and Fate points used in the Marvel Super Hero game). Technically the cold even lose Karma for failing, but I don't tend to apply that rule assuming the party have made an honest attempt to win, chances are burned up a lot of Karma in the fight anyway.
 
Finally, there i san issue of pride. Both ic and ooc, they do want to succeed, not succeeding is a punishment for failure in its own right.

It all depends on the campaign and genre conventions as how best to deal with character death, there are no absolute rules that apply to all games.

Quote from: Soylent Green;318552I was commenting on the above quote which suggested MMO suck because death is meaningless and treating that as some sort of absolute.

It wasn't a value judgment on the mechanic. Quite the opposite -- in MMOs I feel it's absolutely necessary. An MMO in which your character died permanently and lost all the gear you spent forty game hours grinding would not be fun for me. (Although Diablo II had "Hardcore" mode which did exactly this. Fun for some, certainly, but not me.)

I was poking fun at it because everyone being immortal in a game leads to a certain lack of weight to anyone's actions. A three-minute run to your corpse upon dying is not a meaningful "death". To me, neither is losing a few hours of XP. Doesn't mean it's bad or not fun.

I want to play World of HackCraft(tm), if it were ever made real... Other than that? Nah, not interested after trying them a few times...

Quote from: greylond;318517In RPGs letting players get away with any lame-brain idea and them not dying will teach them nothing other than how to get over on a weak GM.

Eh, that depends on what the group wants to get out of the game. If they want to do a bunch of shit and always have it work out, more power to them. I could see how that could be fun, at least for a bit.

Not everyone has the same goals in playing an RPG.

They may like it once or twice but eventually, just like letting Children do whatever they want, eventually, they'll get bored with the game. IMO, there has to be a SERIOUS Consequence to players F'ups...

And I do agree with what someone posted before, in a Superhero game I can see this not being Death, but then again, I'm not interested in those kind of games anymore. Other than that though, I'm of the opinion that whatever game/genre it should be Death or Perm Losing the Character, however you want to define it...

Quote from: greylond;319047They may like it once or twice but eventually, just like letting Children do whatever they want, eventually, they'll get bored with the game. IMO, there has to be a SERIOUS Consequence to players F'ups...

And I do agree with what someone posted before, in a Superhero game I can see this not being Death, but then again, I'm not interested in those kind of games anymore. Other than that though, I'm of the opinion that whatever game/genre it should be Death or Perm Losing the Character, however you want to define it...

Almost half of the games I run have sad endings or TPKs. I also have really edgy players that believe that the game is heavy when they play.

Oh, and here's a starter suggestion:  Pets and crafting that don't suck.

The irony here is, the pet concept comes from D&D originally, but the animal companions available to most D&D classes blow donkey testes, largely because of the discrepancy in power between mundane animals and later level monsters.  In any MMO with pet classes, the pet is expected to be a valuable and contrubuting member of the group in many ways.  My Hunter is as dependent on his pet as he is his gun, and that pet grows and learns with him to become an invaluable ally.  In a sense, he and I are split halves of the single powerful whole.  

Crafting meanwhile, is deliberately designed to be unpalatable to the player in D&D (though in fairness crafting varies in usefulness from MMO to MMO as well), laying down harsh cash outlays and even XP loss for daring consider to make anything more than a mundane weapon, and really, unless your GM's a raging stingy cock, you're just flat better off working out him to get something if you want something specific.

Properly done, you could make an adventure out of getting the materials for a custom crafted awesome sword or piece of armor, something that add a very fun touch.  Last night in WoW, I ventured deep into a cave deep at the core of an ancient mountain, and slayed ancient fire elemental hounds to skin them for leather.  Now, looked at from one angle, that's just standard farming for some mats, but take the mundanity and repetition out of it and use your imagination a bit, and you've got the core of a potentially kick ass adventure.  

I think the thread through all of this is, you have to take these MMO concepts, and look to the core of it, the good idea at the center, while ignoring the inevitable abuse and oversimplification the MMO environment has a habit of reducing such things to.  You don't need the grind and the metagaming and min maxing, but you can have an awful lot of fun if you're careful, borrowing some of the higher concept stuff that makes them fun.

Quote from: greylond;319047They may like it once or twice but eventually, just like letting Children do whatever they want, eventually, they'll get bored with the game. IMO, there has to be a SERIOUS Consequence to players F'ups...

Careful with the condescending tone here. You don't know they'll get bored with the game. Maybe these people just want to get together and goof around using an RPG. No harm in that, and they're not doing it wrong. Thinking that you know better than I do about whether I'm really having fun is a Forgeist attitude, and that's frowned upon around these parts.

Trust the GM, The GM is Always Right... ;)