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So my Fables Diceless short finished and for variety and because I am on a Marvel kick I decided to run a supers game.

Because my players are all new to RPGs and because so far they have only played my homebrew games I thought I would use a system that was much less free form and crunchier. So I decided on M&M 2e.

Wouldn't be my ideal choice as a lot of system mastery required to get teh most out of it and a whole lot of charop but I think I can run it free form enough for it to be manageable.

So today we built characters which took about 3 hours :) 4 players and a GM unfamiliar with the system will do that I reckon .

So we have a Gadgeteer, a combat guy that can turn to water, a natobot cloud that can take human form and an outerspace adapter flier guy.

I am sure the PCs could be more optimised etc but I don;t really care too much about that.

I am looking for some hits as to the pitfalls. Specifically -
i) do all PCs need to max out their toughness? The gadgeteer as a laser pistol (rank 10 blast). With which she was easily able to hit and badly damage the other PCs who has toughness ranging from 3 to 10.
ii) The Nanobot cloud has a mental blast and mind control power that only works at touch range. Do they need to make a grapple or a roll to hit to use that from their cloud form (want to know the official rule before I change it but a little unclear)?
iii) The gadgeteer also has hi tech armour suit with Rank 10 protection and rank 10 Immunity. This effectively makes her invulnerable to all physical attacks from creatures less powerful than the PCs (PL 10) and seems cheap at 19 points (10 ranks protection at 1/R + immunity +1/R -1 point for it being a device that could be lost or disabled rather than innate). Am I reading it right or have I missed a trick?

Any answers to these or other generic guidance warmly welcomed.

Really? No one plays this game or are we only interested in flame wars about 5e?

Wish I could help ya, but when I run heroes, I run Supers! Very freeform and fun. PC creation is much faster.

http://www.rpgnow.com/product/130108/SUPERS-Revised-Edition

Mutants and Masterminds has some pitfalls, allthough I am far from an expert on it.


The main 'problem' I saw, was that if you have too many points, characters tend to all have everything 'maxed out' in regards to toughness, dodgyness, etc...

I suspect the system works better with less points and or higher campaign power limit.

Also, some combinations of powers can be trouble, such as max toughness dude that then adds regeneration at a relatively trivial cost.

I am sure some people have either solved these issues, or may not share my concerns.

I deliberately picked M&M 2e because of its capacity for optimised builds and system mastery. These are not my favoured game styles, though I have to admit the character creation is very flexible, but I want to give the players a chance to experience that type of game because just cos I don;t like it doesn't mean thy might not love it to bits.

Of course its not a fair deal if I fuck up GM'ing it due to some inherent system balance issues that I was unaware of.

As I noted I am particularly wary of the PC with an armoured 10 protection suit with immunity.

Quote from: jibbajibba;760538I deliberately picked M&M 2e because of its capacity for optimised builds and system mastery. These are not my favoured game styles, though I have to admit the character creation is very flexible, but I want to give the players a chance to experience that type of game because just cos I don;t like it doesn't mean thy might not love it to bits.

Of course its not a fair deal if I fuck up GM'ing it due to some inherent system balance issues that I was unaware of.

As I noted I am particularly wary of the PC with an armoured 10 protection suit with immunity.

Well, if you are allowing uber characters, then the only real problem I see is if someone is 'Unassailable' or 'Immune to Everything'

If someone is immune to physical attacks but not energy and mental, its fine.

If someone is always invisible and attacks through walls with an invisible attack; that's bad.

Quote from: jibbajibba;760275Wouldn't be my ideal choice as a lot of system mastery required to get teh most out of it and a whole lot of charop but I think I can run it free form enough for it to be manageable.

M&M 2E is, IMHO, irreparably broken.  The character build system has some stunning loopholes that create such huge point discrepancies that there's no disincentive to use them, and character sheets very quickly get bizarre and counterintuitive.

One obvious case in point: there is virtually no case where it makes sense to buy up Attributes, since everything every Attribute bonus point gives can be bought cheaper somewhere else in the system.  In fact, it can be extremely effective to buy all your Attributes down to 0, and then use the extra points to buy back the bonuses where they actually count.  You can save as much as 10-20 HP this way.

Also, PL is God.  If every character and villain doesn't have every attack and defense within a few points of PL (remember you can trade off), then you're going to have one-shot "kills".  The Protection +10, Immunity 10 is one kind of gamebreaking character, but so is the bathroom mentalist.  In M&M2 it is very easy to get rock-paper-scissors builds that are invincible within a narrow set of assumptions; change those assumptions and they're useless.

There are certain character concepts that you just can't do in M&M2's power mechanics, because the rules are materialistic; there's no concept of the soul distinct from the body, alternate dimensions, afterlife, etc.  Characters like Katana or Deadman are nearly impossible to build given the system as written.

The rules for damaging objects and the damage values given for mundane weaponry are nonsensical; ignore them and handwave it.

The grappling rules are broken.

i) Yes.  See above about PL.
ii) If the power works at touch range, it doesn't matter what form the character is in.  It's a straight up attack roll.
iii) Read up on PL tradeoffs and Power Attack. Also, exactly what is the character Immune to?  They have to specify. Or did you perhaps mean Impervious?

Quote from: daniel_ream;760890M&M 2E is, IMHO, irreparably broken.  The character build system has some stunning loopholes that create such huge point discrepancies that there's no disincentive to use them, and character sheets very quickly get bizarre and counterintuitive.

One obvious case in point: there is virtually no case where it makes sense to buy up Attributes, since everything every Attribute bonus point gives can be bought cheaper somewhere else in the system.  In fact, it can be extremely effective to buy all your Attributes down to 0, and then use the extra points to buy back the bonuses where they actually count.  You can save as much as 10-20 HP this way.

Also, PL is God.  If every character and villain doesn't have every attack and defense within a few points of PL (remember you can trade off), then you're going to have one-shot "kills".  The Protection +10, Immunity 10 is one kind of gamebreaking character, but so is the bathroom mentalist.  In M&M2 it is very easy to get rock-paper-scissors builds that are invincible within a narrow set of assumptions; change those assumptions and they're useless.

There are certain character concepts that you just can't do in M&M2's power mechanics, because the rules are materialistic; there's no concept of the soul distinct from the body, alternate dimensions, afterlife, etc.  Characters like Katana or Deadman are nearly impossible to build given the system as written.

The rules for damaging objects and the damage values given for mundane weaponry are nonsensical; ignore them and handwave it.

The grappling rules are broken.

i) Yes.  See above about PL.
ii) If the power works at touch range, it doesn't matter what form the character is in.  It's a straight up attack roll.
iii) Read up on PL tradeoffs and Power Attack. Also, exactly what is the character Immune to?  They have to specify. Or did you perhaps mean Impervious?

Thanks.
Yes I meant Impervious . I will look at the effect but it may be that I am happy with her being impervious I can think of a few hundred other way sto cause damage :)
I guess I will give a "Gas' a to hit bonus against a person.
I can generate a quick grapple subsystem I think.

I recall character creation being a chore. The game itself - rolling a D20 and adding stuff - no problem.

Strange since I'd played (and loved) DC Heroes (point buy) but this seemed more fiddly. You could play it straight - buy X points of power for Y cost, or play one of the pre-made archetypes - but you would be woefully outgunned by someone who knew how to min/max the system.

They'd somehow manage to eke out a more effective character within the PL limits. I just wanted to play, rather than learn to min/max the system and add this, that, the other, so that the character sheet had listings within listings and you needed to know what all that stuff did or you'd be forever looking in the book to work it out. Then multiply that by half a dozen players.

Always wanted to go back and give the game another shot - so many people love it so I must be wrong, and them right, right? Never did. Like Hero system, sometimes more is not better.

I'm GMing a long running DC Heroes campaign at the moment but think I will switch to something simpler soon. I get the system, no problem, but my players never really felt comfortable with it. When a couple of people joined who really knew how to squeeze max bang for buck it really unsettled things, to the point of asking one of the players to leave the game. All of her posts were rules lawyer arguments about how this many points bought this or that and should do this when in fact her character had been min/maxed to grant near limitless power and flexibility and made the others redundant.

Maybe I have a problem with point buy games - they are wildly open to abuse in my opinion.

Iv'e never been truly satisfied with a supers system. Probably because the genre is very demanding about what can exist (everything from all other genres). Also, it is tricky at best to represent Robin and Superman with the same game mechanics.

MM may not be perfect, but if the players are focused on roleplay I think it works.

If the game is about who's build is better, or pure combat, not so great.

(i) You don't want to be stingy with any of your defenses. The vast majority of effective builds usually try to hit level limits on all of them. The main reason you might have a lower toughness save is if you'd done a trade off under the rules to increase another defensive feature.  

(ii) IIRC, you don't ordinarily need to succeed in a grapple to hit someone with a touch range attack. Requiring a grapple would be a limitation on the power.

(iii) There are several ways to get around the protection 10/impervious 10 problem.

1. Your villains won't necessarily be restricted to PL 10 attacks. Your major ones should always be at least a level or two higher than the PCs.
2. The penetrating extra can bypass an impervious defense. A power can be either purchased that way or stunted for the same effect. Even on a mundane armor piecing shells or rockets should have that extra.
3. Although there is some controversy about it, most GMs allow "combined" attacks to raise the rank of an attack in a way that can bypass impervious protection. (Use this for mooks.)
4. There are plenty of attacks that bypass protection altogether: basically anything that requires a Will or Fort save. And ensnaring attacks can be fun.

Hope that helps.

Quote from: daniel_ream;760890... There are certain character concepts that you just can't do in M&M2's power mechanics, because the rules are materialistic; there's no concept of the soul distinct from the body, alternate dimensions, afterlife, etc.  Characters like Katana or Deadman are nearly impossible to build given the system as written.

Deadman
PL: 10 (184pp)

Abilities: STR: 14 (+2) DEX: 16 (+3) CON: -- (+) INT: 14 (+2) WIS: 16 (+3) CHA: 16 (+3)

Skills: Acrobatics 12 (+15), Bluff 8 (+11), Escape Artist 8 (+11), Gather Information 12 (+15), Notice 8 (+11), Profession [Circus Performer] 8 (+11), Sense Motive 8 (+11), Stealth 4 (+7)

Feats: Acrobatic Bluff, All-Out Attack, Defensive Attack, Dodge Focus (5), Elusive Target, Improved Block, Power Attack, Takedown Attack, Taunt

Powers: Astral Form 9 (Extras: Continuous [+1]; Flaws: Permanent [-1]; Power Feats: Selective, Subtle, Dimensional; 47pp), Immunity 30 (Fortitude Effects; 30pp), Possession 8 (24pp), Super Senses 1 (Spirit Awareness; 1pp)

Combat: Attack +10 [Unarmed +2] Defense 20 (13 flat-footed) Init +3

Saves: Toughness +0 (0 flat-footed) Fortitude +NA Reflex +3 Will +8

Abilities 16 + Skills 17 (68 Ranks) + Feats 13 + Powers 102 + Combat 30 + Saves 6 – Drawbacks 0 = 184pp


Katana



Power Level: 10; Power Points Spent: 150

STR: +4 (18.), DEX: +6 (22), CON: +4 (18.), INT: +3 (16), WIS: +2 (14), CHA: +9 (28.)

Tough: +4/+8, Fort: +7, Ref: +10, Will: +5

Skills: Bluff 4 (+13), Diplomacy 4 (+13), Intimidate 4 (+13), Language 4 (+4), Sleight of Hand 8 (+14), Stealth 8 (+14), Knowledge (arcane Lore) 4 (+7), Knowledge (theology & philsophy) 4 (+7)

Feats: Equipment 2, Fighting Style: Sword-fighting, Accurate Attack, Defensive Attack, Improved Block, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Taunt, Fighting Style: Judo, Improved Grab, Improved Pin, Improved Trip, Stunning Attack, Takedown Attack 2, Weapon Bind, Ritualist, Quick Draw, Defensive Roll 4, All-Out Attack, Dodge Focus 2, Evasion, Attack Focus (Melee)

Powers:
Soultaker (Device 2) (easy to lose; Indestructible)
Strike 5 (DC 24; Mighty, Variable Descriptor (Narrow group - Cutting or Bashing with the Flat of the Blade))
Absorbs the Souls of Victims It Slays (Features 1)
Absolute Control of Souls It's Taken (Features 1)
Can Summon Forth the Dead Stored in It. (Features 1)

Equipment: Knife, Shuriken

Attack Bonus: +10 (Ranged: +10, Melee: +11, Grapple: +15)

Attacks: Unarmed Attack, +11 (DC 19), Knife, +11 (DC 20), Shuriken, +10 (DC 20), Strike 5, +11 (DC 24)

Defense: +12 (Flat-footed: +5), Knockback: -4

Initiative: +10

Languages: Native Language (Japanese), English, Chinese (Mandarin), Vietnamese, Korean

Totals: Abilities 56 + Skills 10 (40 ranks) + Feats 27 + Powers 7 + Combat 40 + Saves 10 + Drawbacks 0 = 150

Quote from: Saplatt;761320Powers:
Absorbs the Souls of Victims It Slays (Features 1)
Absolute Control of Souls It's Taken (Features 1)
Can Summon Forth the Dead Stored in It. (Features 1)

First of all, that's 3E, not 2E, and second of all, fuck off.  Being able to enslave anyone she kills in the blade and summon them later is a major feature of the character, both in terms of story impact and in terms of raw objective-defeating power.  Three points?  That's a 60-foot-tall billboard with neon letters spelling out "THE GAME CAN'T DO THIS BUT I'M TOO STUBBORN TO ADMIT IT".

Quote from: APNMaybe I have a problem with point buy games - they are wildly open to abuse in my opinion.

Effects-based point buy is a trap in RPGs.  If the number of effects is kept very small, it can work fine in skirmish minis games (I'm thinking Dirtside II, Song of Blades and Heroes, or Hordes of the Things) but it just doesn't work at all for RPGs, period.  All it does is act as a tar baby for people obsessed with detail and complexity.

Quote from: daniel_ream;761867First of all, that's 3E, not 2E...

Demonstrably wrong. Features were introduced in the 2e Ultimate Powers book. Pages 50-51.

Quote from: daniel_ream;761867and second of all, fuck off.  Being able to enslave anyone she kills in the blade and summon them later is a major feature of the character, both in terms of story impact and in terms of raw objective-defeating power.  Three points?  That's a 60-foot-tall billboard with neon letters spelling out "THE GAME CAN'T DO THIS BUT I'M TOO STUBBORN TO ADMIT IT"....

Blah, blah, blah. If you don't like the features angle then just giver her ranks of the summoning power, limited to people she's killed, with whatever extras are appropriate.

Quote from: daniel_ream;761867Effects-based point buy is a trap in RPGs.

Nonsense. If you can't define what effect a power has, it's meaningless anyway.  

Quote from: daniel_ream;761867If the number of effects is kept very small, it can work fine in skirmish minis games (I'm thinking Dirtside II, Song of Blades and Heroes, or Hordes of the Things) but it just doesn't work at all for RPGs, period.  All it does is act as a tar baby for people obsessed with detail and complexity.

Which I assume is why games like M&M, Champions, and DC Heroes will never sell a copy.

Games like Hero, Gurps, and MM can usually cover the unusual character concepts, but may not be able to do it on the budget set in the campaign.

Batman, for example, can be expensive. That utility belt costs more points than Robin. :)

Thanks folks for all the advice.

The stuff on pushing ones defense up is good advice I am thinking of upping he cost of Impervious to 2 per point from 1.

Quote from: jibbajibba;761977Thanks folks for all the advice.

The stuff on pushing ones defense up is good advice I am thinking of upping he cost of Impervious to 2 per point from 1.

Games usually don't account for how some defense synergize.

For example, someone hard to hit, hard to hurt, and regenerates might pay 10 points for each of those three things.

But, the synergy between the defenses is far greater than the point cost.

10+10+10 =30  is 'Too low' for what you end up with.

10x10x10 = 1000 is actually closer, even though it seems crazy at first glance.

Beware the 'free lunch' effect from flawed point systems.

Although being immune to something is no big deal if you are vulnerable to other common things.

Quote from: jibbajibba;761977Thanks folks for all the advice.

The stuff on pushing ones defense up is good advice I am thinking of upping he cost of Impervious to 2 per point from 1.

3e sort of handled it that way. In 3e, impervious only grants half its rank in effect. So Impervious 10 really just gives you 5 ranks of it - enough to stop most mundane blades & firearms, but not enough to stop the kinds of attacks you'd expect from most non-mook villains.

There was a big outcry on the M&M boards about that, as I recall, because some people felt it was no longer worth buying at all.

Quote from: Saplatt;7619833e sort of handled it that way. In 3e, impervious only grants half its rank in effect. So Impervious 10 really just gives you 5 ranks of it - enough to stop most mundane blades & firearms, but not enough to stop the kinds of attacks you'd expect from most non-mook villains.

There was a big outcry on the M&M boards about that, as I recall, because some people felt it was no longer worth buying at all.

Well costing it at 2 would mean you could still max it up to 10 at PL 10 it would just represent a higher investment whereas I can see that a max impervious of 5 might be seen as quite weak as your protection would already be 10 so you are already rolling 1d20 +10 vs 20 to save against a damage 5 attack

Quote from: Bill;761982Games usually don't account for how some defense synergize.

For example, someone hard to hit, hard to hurt, and regenerates might pay 10 points for each of those three things.

But, the synergy between the defenses is far greater than the point cost.

10+10+10 =30  is 'Too low' for what you end up with.

10x10x10 = 1000 is actually closer, even though it seems crazy at first glance.

Beware the 'free lunch' effect from flawed point systems.

Although being immune to something is no big deal if you are vulnerable to other common things.

yes i can see that. good advice.
My players aren't min-maxers the only other point buy game they have played was Amber so I am not to worried about the fallout of chargen. Its more about telling them they should try to push their toughness up as its Quite Important.

Quote from: jibbajibba;761987yes i can see that. good advice.
My players aren't min-maxers the only other point buy game they have played was Amber so I am not to worried about the fallout of chargen. Its more about telling them they should try to push their toughness up as its Quite Important.

Let us know how it goes.

So session one ran today for 4 hours.

First 45 mins or so were character discussion points etc . Can you do that should I tweak this etc ....

Then we got to it.

Comments would be

Weird for me to be playing a game with such powerful PCs after a year of my homebrew.
The ghost nanobot PC was the most "built" but the AP system along with some suggestions from me meant they were flexible rather than all powerful as they could only use one power at a time.
Data link and Machine control was very tough but mainly due to the opponents they were facing (Chitauri left over from the Battle of New York in the Marvel cinematic Universe)
Combat was good fun but a little slow due to the various states that needed to be tracked and my lack of familiarity with them.
My impersonation of Nick Fury is Shit.

In the 3 1/4 hours of actual play we had
i) a quick mission briefing
ii) some nice role play on  the chopper to the mission objective
iii) a lot of tactical analysis of the mission target, A shield base that had been taken over by Chitauri
iv) A fight with 8 Chitauri on Jet sleds
v) An all out attack on the Chitauri holding the roof entry of the base with a Chitauri ladning ship.

We had 4 PCs and 1 NPC pilot
The pilot died (he was staggered by a blaster and as he was flying a chitauri sled at the time he lost control and crashed it into the side of the mountain base then fell 200 feet. Since his power is duplication however he will be back at base waiting for the team, mainly cos its a really Whedon moment.)
One PC took a lot of bruises and a couple of injured statuses  
the other 3 PCs either avoided direct combat invisible/gaseous or they were a mix of Martial arts guru and lucky.

So my feel was its a bit too crunchy for me. I would look to remove a lot of status effects and impose degrees of disadvantage.
I haven't quite got my head round the idea that damage doesn't really stack but I can see it actually makes more sense so will stick with it.
I generally think it does feel like a supers game. 5 avenger style heroes took out 20 chitauri and captured a space ship.

Next session they penetrate the base and I guess it becomes more of a dungeon crawl their mission is to retrieve the localised Chitauri neural transponder that is keeping this pocket of chitauri up and alive. They already located it and now need to get through 7 levels of rampaged Shield base to get to it. But since one of them can turn to water and travel through the pipes and one is a gaseous cloud of nanobots who can get through any opening .....

I might post up the PCs sheets here for review

Quote from: jibbajibba;762495My impersonation of Nick Fury is Shit.

Basically try playing Jules from Pulp Fiction as played by David Hasslehoff.

QuoteI might post up the PCs sheets here for review

Please do.

jg

Quote from: jibbajibba;762495So session one ran today for 4 hours.

First 45 mins or so were character discussion points etc . Can you do that should I tweak this etc ....

Then we got to it.

Comments would be

Weird for me to be playing a game with such powerful PCs after a year of my homebrew.
The ghost nanobot PC was the most "built" but the AP system along with some suggestions from me meant they were flexible rather than all powerful as they could only use one power at a time.
Data link and Machine control was very tough but mainly due to the opponents they were facing (Chitauri left over from the Battle of New York in the Marvel cinematic Universe)
Combat was good fun but a little slow due to the various states that needed to be tracked and my lack of familiarity with them.
My impersonation of Nick Fury is Shit.

In the 3 1/4 hours of actual play we had
i) a quick mission briefing
ii) some nice role play on  the chopper to the mission objective
iii) a lot of tactical analysis of the mission target, A shield base that had been taken over by Chitauri
iv) A fight with 8 Chitauri on Jet sleds
v) An all out attack on the Chitauri holding the roof entry of the base with a Chitauri ladning ship.

We had 4 PCs and 1 NPC pilot
The pilot died (he was staggered by a blaster and as he was flying a chitauri sled at the time he lost control and crashed it into the side of the mountain base then fell 200 feet. Since his power is duplication however he will be back at base waiting for the team, mainly cos its a really Whedon moment.)
One PC took a lot of bruises and a couple of injured statuses  
the other 3 PCs either avoided direct combat invisible/gaseous or they were a mix of Martial arts guru and lucky.

So my feel was its a bit too crunchy for me. I would look to remove a lot of status effects and impose degrees of disadvantage.
I haven't quite got my head round the idea that damage doesn't really stack but I can see it actually makes more sense so will stick with it.
I generally think it does feel like a supers game. 5 avenger style heroes took out 20 chitauri and captured a space ship.

Next session they penetrate the base and I guess it becomes more of a dungeon crawl their mission is to retrieve the localised Chitauri neural transponder that is keeping this pocket of chitauri up and alive. They already located it and now need to get through 7 levels of rampaged Shield base to get to it. But since one of them can turn to water and travel through the pipes and one is a gaseous cloud of nanobots who can get through any opening .....

I might post up the PCs sheets here for review

Tracking states is the reason I will never run MM again :)