I've noticed a few fans of this game around here. I haven't able to run any (edited to add) adventures(end edit) of this awesome, praiseworthy set of rules, of late, but really want to hear tales of others tabletop adventures. Please share.
I ran a game where the characters were the inheritors of a small, but well known private investigation/security advisory group. Their first job? Investigate the owner's murder, who was allegedly murdered with his own firearm in a locked room (and it was made to look like a suicide.)
The investigation went on for about three game sessions before the player's decided who was responsible and presented their case to the other shareholders in the firm.
They decided he actually had committed suicide--which is how the police ruled the case. Despite upsetting a few heirs, who wanted a "new" will to be upheld, their investigation and evidence proved he was suffering mental illness and not capable of altering his will with appropriate mental stability required by law.
Of course his suicide was simply his way of getting out of ongoing agonizing pain and ill health caused by (eventually) terminal cancer.
One of the most cerebral games I've run in s long time. Although as usual I threw some "unusual" elements in the back story because mundane world gaming--even adventurous "mundane" world, bores me to tears. In this case I set the thing in a fantasy world. (Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, magic.) This made it harder to realize that his suicide was just suicide.
There is some MS&PE chatter on my T&T Forum (http://trollbridge.proboards.com/) if you don't get much talk here.
MS&PE is a pretty neat game to play. Pretty simple in concept, easy to expand to more complexity as desired.
I ran a 'Cast a Deadly Spell' inspired campaign with Mercenaries, Spies and Private Eyes for quite a while. I added the Emotional Stability mechanic from the Sorceror's Apprentice article on horror gaming (The Lovecraft Variant). The players all seemed to have a great time and they still reference the campaign 15 years after I ran it.
Probably the most memorable series of adventures was the investigation of a private nightclub in New York called "The Thirteens." It turned out that the place was a front for a circle of cannibalistic magicians. During the pitched battle that ended the game one of the zombie waiters got set ablaze. Since zombies aren't terribly swift, it kept trying to serve the dish it was responsible for. So during the blazing gunfight, this burning zombie kept shuffling around waving a dish at people and repeating "Cherries flambe', cherries flambe' would the gentleman care for some cherries flambe'?" Great fun all around.
I've heard about this game before, but I know nothing about it (other than it's old and OOP).
What's the system like?
It's sad that they dont even make the game available via .pdf so people who were interested in the game could actually get it.
I have a specific forum for these kinds of games, you assholes.
:)
I was more of a Top Secret player, but small towns in Northern Wisconsin are not really noted for the wide variety of gaming opportunities. The game always did intrigue me from the Dragon ads and stuff, so I second the motion to discuss the system.
It's basically Tunnels and Trolls with skills and guns. Let's investigate why this is a wonderful thing.
The stats are still Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Luck, Charisma and Speed. They're still rolled up on 3d6 with a +1 to combat adds for each point of Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, and Luck over 12 and -1 per point under 9. Hit Points are still equal to Constitution.
Skills are bought with Intelligence points and are a nice range for a modern game, not too little, not too much. Most of the skills have special rules and it's important to read them. If you don't read the Physician skill, the combat rules won't tell you that dropping below 0 Hit Points doesn't automatically kill your character.
Gaining experience levels adds to the character's stats, just like T&T. If you want action movie characters, level ten will give you characters as hard as any Schwartzneger or Chuck Noris protagonist.
Saving Throws are still the core mechanic. 2d6 + Stat roll over target number of 15 + 5 x Difficulty Level. Doubles add and roll over and Rolls under five are automatic failures. Skill Levels are added to the stat.
Melee attacks are attack total (weapon dice + combat adds) minus combat total just like T&T except skilled combatants can 'parry' forcing their foe to take the full damage from their attack.
Gun fire has two tables giving target numbers at different ranges for pistols and rifles. There's a few modifiers but the target numbers are pretty high which is good because getting shot is brutal. Autofire is handled by dividing the number of bullets by six and rolling the resulting number of dice to determine the number of hits.
Guns do at least 3 dice damage and most are in the 5 to 9 dice range. Clever readers will note that you average 10 HP. Armor is of limited utility. DO NOT GET SHOT. Your negative hit point level effects the difficulty of life saving surgery.
Vehicle combat is only loosely handled and breaks down if you think about it too hard. Keep it in mind that the game simply isn't intended to focus on that type of thing. It'll handle your car chase just fine but you wouldn't want to simulate the battle of Kursk with it.
There's a few nice essays by Mike Stackpole on how to run mercenary missions, spy missions, and mysteries. As well as stats for Sherlock Holmes and Watson.
All in all it's a simple game with a do it yourself focus. It manages to be compatible with Tunnels and Trolls without being in any way silly or absurd. The best supplements you can get for it are a car buyers guide, a Shooter's Bible, and a Sears catelog.
Quote from: The Butcher;437935I've heard about this game before, but I know nothing about it (other than it's old and OOP).
What's the system like?
As I understand it isn't OOP, you can still get copies from the publisher...
I think they probably still have books left from the first print run. It wasn't exactly a hit. I'd probably never looked at it, except I remembered an ad from Dragon and it was just $12. And I still have a soft spot for Tunnels and Trolls.
Quote from: David Johansen;437990I think they probably still have books left from the first print run. It wasn't exactly a hit. I'd probably never looked at it, except I remembered an ad from Dragon and it was just $12. And I still have a soft spot for Tunnels and Trolls.
Didn't they change cover art/style from first to second?
Since I know I've seen two different covers.
I've seen two covers--the original color cover, with Robert Shaw, Bogart, and Charles Gray on it, and a black and white cover with a sneaky looking girl on the front and some submarine blueprints on the back. I have a feeling some b&w covers have something different on the back, but I can't swear to it. Original books have simpler firearms tables and lack sample characters. Some say they're done by Flying Buffalo, and some say they're done by Sleuth Publications.
Several of the adventures are cross-statted for Espionage!, which was the contemporaneous Hero spy game. They're OK. As good as most Top Secret modules, but not as good as 007 modules.
Gear lists in MSPE are definitely in early 80s dollars. To move it through time, I use the comparative consumer price indexes for the year I want to adjust starting money and cost lists.
I used to keep an enormous card file of every TV/movie/pulp action hero I could think of, from Doc Savage to Kolchak to Stringfellow Hawke. We played some pretty slick crossover scenarios with those things.
Character generation in MSPE is quick and easy. It's from the generation of games that expected character death to be fairly common, and didn't shy away from being lethal.
Quote from: Silverlion;437987As I understand it isn't OOP, you can still get copies from the publisher...
I went to their webpage and the main core set is sold out. The have supplements available though.
The boxed set is sold out. They've been out of boxes or years. But you can still get the book itself for 9.95. Click on the first "add to cart" button after you see the big picture of the book.
http://www.flyingbuffalo.com/mercen.htm
Quote from: stu2000;438014I've seen two covers--the original color cover, with Robert Shaw, Bogart, and Charles Gray on it, and a black and white cover with a sneaky looking girl on the front and some submarine blueprints on the back. I have a feeling some b&w covers have something different on the back, but I can't swear to it. Original books have simpler firearms tables and lack sample characters. Some say they're done by Flying Buffalo, and some say they're done by Sleuth Publications.
I have copies of both rulebooks, and they are almost exactly the same inside. I believe that any differences were an accident, not an intent to re-do the system.
Huh, I'd just assumed they did a color cover for the book and a black and white for in the box. Rune Quest second edition did something similar with their boxed set.
Quote from: finarvyn;438064I have copies of both rulebooks, and they are almost exactly the same inside. I believe that any differences were an accident, not an intent to re-do the system.
The rules are, as you say, identical, but the firearms charts in the later, b&w book were designed to specifically indicate modifiers for shooter and target, whereas the original book used a simpler chart which you had to consult twice and add the numbers for shooter and target. The sample characters and character standups were added in subsequent printings. The Nightstalkers chapter was added as an expansion of the Tunnels and Thompsons chapter. The character sheet was changed to the format from the character folders, which had been sold separately. So I don't think the changes were accidental, but they weren't a revision or anything, either.
Maybe someone should suggest that they scan the books in and sell them at rpgnow or the like. It would make them a little extra money and get the game out in the hands of people who like the game.
Or maybe they should do an updated version of the game
They were asking for submissions of solitaire adventures a while back. Maybe they'd be open to a revision proposal that adds modern prices and hardware but leaves the system as is.
Quote from: David Johansen;438406They were asking for submissions of solitaire adventures a while back. Maybe they'd be open to a revision proposal that adds modern prices and hardware but leaves the system as is.
Maybe. Perhaps someone who knows the system might offer to do it
Quote from: Daedalus;438343Maybe someone should suggest that they scan the books in and sell them at rpgnow or the like. It would make them a little extra money and get the game out in the hands of people who like the game.
Or maybe they should do an updated version of the game
I suggested precisely that thing to Rick Loomis one time. He said he would not object to the idea once he sold all the printed stock. How many can he possibly have left?
Quote from: stu2000;438417I suggested precisely that thing to Rick Loomis one time. He said he would not object to the idea once he sold all the printed stock. How many can he possibly have left?
Not a whole lot. I cant do it though. Dont know the system and dont have the time.
I am surprised they dont just put what they have on ebay to get rid of it quickly
I am guessing Flying Buffalo is a part time gig for them
Flying Buffalo's a full time thing. Rick runs the warehouse and also a fairly elaborate pbm and pbem outfit. He goes to conventions and travels and takes care of business. Last summer was his 40th anniversary in business. He's had an enviable career in the business, I think.
Quote from: stu2000;438430Flying Buffalo's a full time thing. Rick runs the warehouse and also a fairly elaborate pbm and pbem outfit. He goes to conventions and travels and takes care of business. Last summer was his 40th anniversary in business. He's had an enviable career in the business, I think.
That is impressive. I would say they should really get a more professional looking website. It looks kind of old. But if they have been going that long then it may well not matter.
I am surprised they are running for pay play by email/play by mail games and are successful. I didn't know people still paid for them
I guess most of his customers are gamers-that-time-forgot dinosaurs like me, though I haven't played any rounds for a long time. My favorite was Starweb.
If you have the time or energy, they're a fun an engaging experience. But I don't know what they have to offer folks more accustomed to computer games, apart from their novelty.
Just the appeal of getting something in your mail box other than bills and flyers on a regular basis. I don't care how electronic the world gets there's still a special little thrill that comes with getting a nice, physical object in the mail.
Quote from: David Johansen;438451Just the appeal of getting something in your mail box other than bills and flyers on a regular basis. I don't care how electronic the world gets there's still a special little thrill that comes with getting a nice, physical object in the mail.
I guess I would do it via email the mail, much faster and you can get more turns in. I hate slow
It's funny how the debate of the FBI website being either really kewl or old and outdated has popped up here. At Trollhalla the subject has come up about once a year or so, for the last five years now.
Quote from: Laggy;438561It's funny how the debate of the FBI website being either really kewl or old and outdated has popped up here. At Trollhalla the subject has come up about once a year or so, for the last five years now.
I am just saying they sound like a professional company but their site makes them not look that way
Quote from: Laggy;438561It's funny how the debate of the FBI website
That got me there for a second when you said that. At first I was like "The FBI, I am not talking about their site I am talking about Flying Buffa- Oh I got it now. ;)
LOL!
We use have a certain special decal that PeryPub used for official Flying Buffalo Incorporated-approved material. It reads "FBI Approved," and we try to make it look "federal-esque." One day I'll tell you, in private, the long, long story behind why we get such a kick out of it.
Quote from: Laggy;438569LOL!
We use have a certain special decal that PeryPub used for official Flying Buffalo Incorporated-approved material. It reads "FBI Approved," and we try to make it look "federal-esque." One day I'll tell you, in private, the long, long story behind why we get such a kick out of it.
Cool. I would like to hear that story
Can anyone who has played Mercenaries, Spies and Private Eyes give me a little information on how it plays? Is it a smooth game to run?
Fundamentally, it's pretty much the same system as Tunnels & Trolls, so it plays just like it. MS&PE also adds a layer of skills for realistic characters, and I'll confess that sometimes I play that way and other times I simplify by just ignoring the skills. Seems to work smoothly either way!
It's smooth as hot buttered glass.
You want to give the players some scratch paper to note their rolls. That's an important part of character development. They might be annoyed, since most games don't do it like that, but there's no reason for you to have to do it. Let them get used to it.
You don't need minis or a grid, but you will want some nice location maps and a means of noting range and cover for gunfights.
Let the players know what kind of adventure they're playing, and let then roll characters old-school style. You take the numbers you get for your stats and buy skills appropriate for the mission. If the characters live, then they develop. Trying to artfully assemble a character to be a long-term alter ego might be a little counter-productive at first.
Mysteries can be tricky to run, but there are whole threads here on that. I would just encourage you to go through your maps/scenes, populate them with interesting npcs and things, and have plenty of interesting results in mind for both successful and failed rolls. I might encourage a more straightforward mercenary mission to start. You get plenty of lethal combat, some money and experience at the end of it, and opportunities for plenty of cool npcs. But of course, that would depend on what your group would like.
Oh--and just a note--skim a couple issues of Soldier of Fortune or a book about Blackwater and get some reasonable amounts of money to offer the characters for the mission. MSPE uses concrete money--no abstract substitute mechanic--as an important part of the character reward structure. Let that work for you.
Along with that, if you aren't setting your adventure in the early 80s, have a multiplier ready for them to use to adjust their starting money and the cost of their equipment.
Make the players keep track of their ammo, if it's a gunfighty scenario.
Rules are spread through the book. Read all the skill descriptions. Read the notes under the equipment charts.
The rules are extremely consistent with their internal logic, so if you hit a snag, resolve it however seems easiest and keep rolling.
edit/addend---------------------------------------------------
I just listened to Tetsubo's ponderings on action points and it made me think of a couple things.
MSPE doesn't have action points or mook rules or any other built-in genre emulation or assumption that characters are going to be vastly more skilled, resillient, or combat-ready than their enemies. Everybody has the same rules and difficulties. If Unnamed Guard #3 has the same Dex and firearms skill as Harry Withers, local crime boss and target of your sting operation, then the guard will be as likely to kill your character as Harry is. Sometimes I like games that feature that inverted difficulty funnel as you move up the food chain to your climactic target. But mostly, I like the level field. It feels more logical and consistent. At any rate--it's something to be aware of as you're designing ncs.
There are no points to spend to automatically get certain clues at certain times, if you're running a linear clue-finding game. Have multiple clues leading to the same information, or make certain critical clues easier to spot. Some folks are put off by mysteries that stall, but I've been lucky to usually have players that enjoy the challenge of solving a mystery, and feel more satisfied if it was tough, as long as it seems like the puzzle was fair.
I don't know if I have any other advice, but I've logged some hours playing, so if you have any questions, I can tell you what I did or would do, for whatever that's worth.
Quote from: stu2000;439799MSPE doesn't have action points or mook rules or any other built-in genre emulation or assumption that characters are going to be vastly more skilled, resillient, or combat-ready than their enemies. Everybody has the same rules and difficulties. If Unnamed Guard #3 has the same Dex and firearms skill as Harry Withers, local crime boss and target of your sting operation, then the guard will be as likely to kill your character as Harry is. Sometimes I like games that feature that inverted difficulty funnel as you move up the food chain to your climactic target. But mostly, I like the level field. It feels more logical and consistent. At any rate--it's something to be aware of as you're designing ncs.
Haven't played MSPE (I have the Jade Jaguar adventure which I got because I was curious about the Hero guidelines, and that's about it) but somewhat familiar with T&T...with Tunnels and Trolls, I tend to think that LUCK is something you can use to tell apart mooks and non-mooks. This goes up quickly with level and gives extra combat adds and hence more attack and defense...though, if MSPE is largely missile based it perhaps won't make as much difference as in T&T?
Minion rules aren't so necessary in T&T anyway either, since the damage is based on the combat roll difference...your damage ramps up quickly against an inferior foe.
Quote from: Daedalus;439700Can anyone who has played Mercenaries, Spies and Private Eyes give me a little information on how it plays? Is it a smooth game to run?
How it plays is rather quick and deadly when the combat starts. In the broad overview I'd say you do the Mercenaries, Spies and Private Eye types of scenarios, or the parts within an ambitious scenario, in reverse order.
In one "campaign," I tried for P.I. versus gangsters thingy and had a shootout at the docks as the climax for the session. All the characters were dead in ten minutes of dice rolling. Another 1937 campaign I did a jewel thief and his cohorts; it went from figuring out who set him up, to finding out the mayor of Newyark, New York was an Italian spy, to an island somewhere around Sardinia to destroy a U-Boat base that would threaten Gibraltar and southern France with laser beam strikes from radio controlled blimps. The thief actually died defusing a bomb but his muscles buddy and Peter Lorrie-like sidekick saved the girl as well as the British garrison. The second one, needless to say, was much more satisfying to all involved.
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;439832I tend to think that LUCK is something you can use to tell apart mooks and non-mooks. This goes up quickly with level and gives extra combat adds and hence more attack and defense...though, if MSPE is largely missile based it perhaps won't make as much difference as in T&T?
That's a good point. You can use the Megadeath (coined before the band) Luck saving Roll to get your pcs out of tight spots. It's a tough roll, though. You want their Luck to be high. And if you deny the Luck stat to nps, I guess that gives them a marginal handicap. But important npcs should have a Luck stat, same as anyone else. Thugs should just get general combat adds reflecting their competence or lack of it.
Characters and their skills advance level separately, which generally has the characters advancing in level more slowly than in T&T, although that's really comparing apples and oranges. When a character advances his level, he only gets two Attribute points to add, much fewer than T&T, so his Luck won't really scale up very quickly. Players tend to add Luck for the adds and IQ to get new skills. Skills can scale up quickly, if they're used often. That helps out in a gunfight, and ther areas, as well.
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;439832Minion rules aren't so necessary in T&T anyway either, since the damage is based on the combat roll difference...your damage ramps up quickly against an inferior foe.
The only caveat to that is that attributes go up slowly, compared to T&T, so the pcs stay closer to on par with the thugs for longer. Just remember that if you want the pcs to blow through the thugs, you have to give the thugs pretty low numbers.
A handful of pcs is almost never going to make it against a small army of similarly-armed thugs, like they could in Feng Shui or some pulp-flavored games. Which I like. Players have to plan the ultraviolence out a little. Distractions, booby traps, cons, heists, deception and ingenuity--A-Team, MacGuyver--that sort of thing.
If you're adept at keeping the players focused on the main adventure, the constant short side adventures they get into as they steal welding gear to build a homemade shark cage, or overly-successfully seduce a foreign ambassador who now wants to defect and cause an international incident can be the most fun part of the game. MSPE is light enough to easily facilitate creating these strange things on the fly, but logical enough, with a gritty enough baseline, for the players to feel some verisimilitude.
It sits in a very sweet spot.
I'm not 100% sure, but I think MSPE is the system behind the old computer game Wastelands.
Quote from: stu2000;439869When a character advances his level, he only gets two Attribute points to add, much fewer than T&T, so his Luck won't really scale up very quickly!
Ouch! I'd expected MSPE characters to have lower stats than T&T PCs just since all the magical power ups and racial bonuses weren't there, but that's a bit of a kick in the teeth. One of the things I like about T&T is the ridiculously bloated attribute scores, even if it does get silly after awhile (I started RPGs with T&T and when we switched to AD&D 2nd ed I remember being baffled when the GM said your stats couldn't go higher than 25...I mean, you'd hopefully hit that in just a couple of sessions and what do you do after that, right?)
But OK, if that's the case then my thoughts above aren't really applicable to MSPE. I still think you can justify Luck as so easy to raise in T&T as higher level = higher plot importance, but yeah...inapplicable here. Ah well, carry on...
The 'Megadeath saving throws' is interesting, though.
Right now I have my hands full of Tunnels and Trolls love but I would like to check out MSPE some time in the future
Quote from: Daedalus;440087Right now I have my hands full of Tunnels and Trolls love but I would like to check out MSPE some time in the future
I am not sure if Mr. St Andre would be happy to hear that or creeped out. ;)
Quote from: StormBringer;440140I am not sure if Mr. St Andre would be happy to hear that or creeped out. ;)
Anyone can indeed ask him.
kenstandre(at)Yahoo.com
Quote from: StormBringer;440140I am not sure if Mr. St Andre would be happy to hear that or creeped out. ;)
Maybe a little of both? ;)
Quote from: Laggy;440228Anyone can indeed ask him.
kenstandre(at)Yahoo.com
He was joking :)
Quote from: Daedalus;440380Maybe a little of both? ;)
Likely. :)
Quote from: StormBringer;440452Likely. :)
Who knows these days eh? :)
Quote from: StormBringer;440140I am not sure if Mr. St Andre would be happy to hear that or creeped out. ;)
I actually kind of agree, but I thought I'd throw up Ken's email as he'd be flattered for being asked his opinion.
Quote from: Laggy;440706I actually kind of agree, but I thought I'd throw up Ken's email as he'd be flattered for being asked his opinion.
I might drop him a note and say something to him.
The only spy game I ever liked was Ninjas and Superspies.
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