Quote from: kythri;1070634The source would be the videos they have published.  Force yourself to watch, and it becomes eminently obvious.  They're publishing narrative entertainment.  They're not playing a legitimate game, and letting the dice decide.

That what I thought. And I have watched several of their videos.

They are roleplaying by acting as their character. It not common as most hobbyists are not interested in acting as a different personality and/or doing funny voices. But people do play this way and it how I play my characters as a player. I make up a character, think of a personality, and roleplay accordingly. Sometime the dice influences my roleplaying if say I failed a morale check but other than I am riffing off of what the referee and the other players are saying and doing the whole sessions. Even if they themselves are roleplaying different personalities.

One thing that makes Critical Role unusual is that the entire group is doing this, roleplaying by acting as their character. That is certainly atypical for tabletop roleplaying.

Other examples are  the personality of the character is little more than the player's own personality with the character abilities tacked on and maybe a quirk or two. Or the player/referee describing everything a character does in third person.

In short is a different style one that is still tabletop roleplaying.

Now one thing that is scripted and done in the traditional way for film and video is the all the backstory material and other filler that surrounds the video of actual play. My view is that part of what makes is watchable for many in the first place. Certainly not something that is typical or even recommended for an tabletop roleplaying game.

I'm not commenting on their roleplaying prowess.

I'm flat accusing them of not actually playing the game, but instead, semi-scripted-improv-acting as if they're playing the game - as in, if a character dies in an episode, it was decided, well before turning on the camera, that the character would be dying in that episode.

Now for the flip side.

As stated I view what is depicted in Critical Role as tabletop roleplaying campaign. Granted one with atypical players. Matt Mercer like so many in the industry and hobby give good advice and bad advice about how one should run a tabletop campaign.

My playing style (as opposed to refereeing) is that I act as my character when roleplaying. I do the funny voices. I come up with alternate personalities and do funny voice. I have no doubt I am not at a level of being a voice actor but I had moments over the years where people enjoyed what I was doing and moments where it didn't work out so well.

In general if one does what I do, or what Matt Mercer's crew does, you need to keep in mind that a substantial number (but not a majority) will not get that you are just acting. They will view everything coming from you as being from you and take it personal particularly if it is something that sets both of your characters as antagonists. So you need to keep that in mind. Also you need to be aware when incorporating personality traits that you got to fine tune your acting in light of the group you are with. I am not talking obvious weird shit but a broad borderland of subjective opinion.

As a referee, you are not going to teaching anybody how to role-play, act as different personality, or do funny voices.  I learned over the decades narrow my expectations to two things. One you speak in first person as your character. And what you do as your character is based on what you know as your character and the circumstances in-game. Other than that I am good with however you play tabletop roleplaying characters.

I don't know (or even care) whether Mercer and his group ever addressed what I said. However it is what I learned from playing and running campaigns for 40 years.

Quote from: kythri;1070638I'm not commenting on their roleplaying prowess.

I'm flat accusing them of not actually playing the game, but instead, semi-scripted-improv-acting as if they're playing the game - as in, if a character dies in an episode, it was decided, well before turning on the camera, that the character would be dying in that episode.

Again source? Watch the video and it obvious is not backing your assertion. I have watched the video and looks just like what I participated in and/or seen among players who are into acting as their character both in tabletop and LARPs.  So on the basis of watching the video, your thesis is wrong.

And again, I must state, I'm not commenting on their roleplaying, or how "into it" they're getting in roleplaying/acting as their characters.  I've witnessed and participated in very heavily roleplayed games/characters.

I'm not suggesting that such doesn't exist, and I'm not saying that's what makes their gaming sessions fake, so you can drop that particular angle at any time.

As far as it pertains to Critical Role, the rules and rulebooks exist to lend a veneer of authenticity to what they're doing, but what they're doing is most certainly not following the rules or playing the game.  They're pretending to do so, so that they can tell the story they want to tell, and make it look legit.  The only game being played is "fool the viewers".

Quote from: kythri;1070634The source would be the videos they have published.  Force yourself to watch, and it becomes eminently obvious.  They're publishing narrative entertainment.  They're not playing a legitimate game, and letting the dice decide.

I did watch some - they were hamming it up but I didn't see that it was pre scripted or any more pre set than many published adventures.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1070527Perkins always seemed legit to me.

Perkins is a great! Best 4E game I ever played in he was the DM.

Quote from: SP23;1070645Perkins is a great! Best 4E game I ever played in he was the DM.

How did you manage to get into one of his games? What was it like?

Perkins is what inspired me to get into D&D. I watched his YouTube game played with the script writers of Robot Chicken and got hooked.

[video=youtube;-jAe42mv0h8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jAe42mv0h8[/youtube]

So I guess I'm an example of someone this kind of thing worked on.

Mercer and Perkins are both great DMs.  Please move to my neighborhood!!!

They are teaching by example.  We just need to learn....

I also think they set the bar high for the rest of us.  One reason I have been writing my own simplified rule set numbers and mechanics (from my perspective); is so I can run things more quickly on the fly, and I have my rules jotted down in a journal, right in front on me, across less than 20 pages.

20 or so pages of rules, plus character sheets, a 5E DM Screen Reincarnated, a 5E PHB for DM Spell Access, a bunch of Dice, and Miniatures.  I can run with just that.

Quote from: estar;1070588Then you are ignorant of range of playstyles hobbyists bring to tabletop roleplaying. There are two things that are outliers at Matt Mercer's table. That it is a group of people that are largely are professional voice actors helmed by a professional voice actor. Two in part they are playing to an audience.

The former is extremely unlikely within the hobby. But then again just about every group is unique, I can only imagine what a cyberpunk campaign where everybody is a Computer Science PHDs is like. Or a space campaign where everybody is an astronomer or astronaut. The uniqueness of this group is one that makes it likely to be something interesting to watch.

The latter point is undoubtedly a point of contention among many including yourself. However that too is within the range of play styles I have experienced. Although the typical case is an individual or a subset of the playing playing to the audience of the rest of the table. I seen it both done well, done badly and done "ok that nice, what in the next room?" In addition, it rare but I seen people sit on convention games that happened to be particularly entertaining to watch.

So I disagree that it is a simulacrum.

You know, I'm willing to concede that "simulacrum" is not the best term. Because of course there is actually D&D play going on in the show. Its just not the point of the show, at least not in the same way that it would be under normal circumstances.

As my new video today points out, the best comparison isn't with something like WWE wrestling vs. Olympic wrestling or something like that, it's between Pornography and normal Sex.
In Porn, obviously sexual intercourse is happening, but typical porn looks very little like normal sexual intercourse in real life, and people (virgins, I guess) who watch porn and think that the way a porn movie goes is what actual sexual encounters must be like and the performances like what they and their future partners should act, will end up having serious problems.

So Matt Mercer is like a porn star trying to pretend that their film about the Cheerleader and the Pizza Delivery Boy was actually something that really happened, that they weren't actors, and that this is what really good normal sex looks like, complete with the double-anal and the guy ending by jizzing all over her face.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1070624I must admit to curiosity about how badly this will offend the Pundit ...

[video=youtube;v5Ft_K492VI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5Ft_K492VI[/youtube]

I have less problem with this than with CR, because this is so obviously actors acting, and I think it's unlikely to fool anyone. No one thinks they're real disney princesses. So the fact that it's obviously an act means people will expect that the actual playing (if there is any, I only watched until they rolled to see who the bard is, where it's obvious that it was scripted so the little mermaid would be the bard) is also fake.

Quote from: kythri;1070638I'm not commenting on their roleplaying prowess.

I'm flat accusing them of not actually playing the game, but instead, semi-scripted-improv-acting as if they're playing the game - as in, if a character dies in an episode, it was decided, well before turning on the camera, that the character would be dying in that episode.

Anyone who's ever done improv acting, which I have, can tell immediately that they're using all kinds of improv acting techniques.  And yes, it's not 100% scripted, or even mostly scripted, but again it's probably scripted in similar ways to how a porn movie is often scripted: "OK, so you're the cheerleader and he's the pizza delivery man, and you make up some excuse for why he has to come into the house and then get your top off, after that it's blowjob, doggy style and then he cums on your tits. Go!"

So they know what the general plan of action is, in order to prepare their so so fake over-hyperbolized reactions.  

The thing that bugs me is not that they're acting as their character. It's that they're acting as players.  That's the part that's insidious, they're downplaying any of the moments where they're bored or not into it (except if a pre-planned 'scene' involves them complaining that they're bored) and they're massive up-playing how excited or scared or amazed the players are at whatever b-grade drama Mercer presents them with.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1070648How did you manage to get into one of his games? What was it like?

Perkins is what inspired me to get into D&D. I watched his YouTube game played with the script writers of Robot Chicken and got hooked.

[video=youtube;-jAe42mv0h8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jAe42mv0h8[/youtube]

So I guess I'm an example of someone this kind of thing worked on.

I worked at WotC for 13+ years so it wasn't a big deal. One day, in I want to say 2010, but it could have been plus or minus a year, a Air Force Major, (or was it a Lt. Colonel, I can't recall, he was a Predator pilot), (total aside, but he would put a the D&D mini model that had a scythe into the Predator before he flew it off to kill Taliban), visited us, and really wanted to play D&D with the designers. Chris, I think, was volunteered, (kinda like he was for the PAX actual play stuff that he's know for), so he sent an email out looking for other employees to fill out the party. I don't remember everyone who participated, but I do remember Ian Richards of RPGA fame, myself, and 2 people from the sales department filled out the rest of the party for an after work session (well, maybe we started around 3 pm, so we got paid for playing )

I've played D&D for 36 years, and have played with lots of famous designers like Jonathan Tweet, Sean K Reynolds, SRM, the list goes on and on..... but Perkins is the bees knees, he really made 4E flow just like any other edition of D&D, which I thought was impressive, as it's one of my least favorite version of the game. I only dislike OD&D, & Holmes more then 4E.

Quote from: SP23;1070661I worked at WotC for 13+ years so it wasn't a big deal. One day, in I want to say 2010, but it could have been plus or minus a year, a Air Force Major, (or was it a Lt. Colonel, I can't recall, he was a Predator pilot), (total aside, but he would put a the D&D mini model that had a scythe into the Predator before he flew it off to kill Taliban), visited us, and really wanted to play D&D with the designers. Chris, I think, was volunteered, (kinda like he was for the PAX actual play stuff that he's know for), so he sent an email out looking for other employees to fill out the party. I don't remember everyone who participated, but I do remember Ian Richards of RPGA fame, myself, and 2 people from the sales department filled out the rest of the party for an after work session (well, maybe we started around 3 pm, so we got paid for playing )

I've played D&D for 36 years, and have played with lots of famous designers like Jonathan Tweet, Sean K Reynolds, SRM, the list goes on and on..... but Perkins is the bees knees, he really made 4E flow just like any other edition of D&D, which I thought was impressive, as it's one of my least favorite version of the game. I only dislike OD&D, & Holmes more then 4E.

I respect your opinion, assuming you are shooting it straight.  Cool resume.  Perkins makes it seem like he Never needs to look up rules.  He passes it off so well, I'd never second guess him, unless character death was involved.

Quote from: estar;1070588Then you are ignorant of range of playstyles hobbyists bring to tabletop roleplaying.

Isn't that what some D&D players who claim to be OSR are, though?  They claim that their own style is the ONLY way to play and how it's ALWAYS meant to be played.