Quote from: Dimitrios;1070485This seems to be a generational thing. I hear that a popular activity with The Kids These Days(TM) is watching youtube videos of other people playing computer games rather than actually playing the games themselves. I don't get it, but whatever. Role Critical seems to be an extension of this.

I can see that. Even my 7 year old nephew is into it. How New World. Maybe the future is 99% of people watching 1% of people doing things, instead of doing things themselves.
But then, he plays as well, and runs around the house making noise. And my local gaming pub is usually packed every night.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1070472Change is not always for the better.

Unlike the past the ease of communication and collaboration enabled by digital technology means that today is played by different rules the most important of which is that popularity is even less of a zero sum game than it was.

Before the expense and logistic of distribution and communication meant that there came a point where something had to be dropped to make room for something else. Whether it is the evening half-hour news, a newspaper, or a warehouse full of books.

The trend of technology was to make things more accessible but it never quite was in the reach of the individual until the dawn of the internet and the maturity of personal computes.

Now whole new hobbies and artforms can spawn out of old ones and the both have equal availability and both enjoy the same low barriers for content creation. The essential problem shifted from the channel being limited to the amount of time a individual hobbyist has.

However like the sentiment of your statement shows, the people who like the older content or form don't go away. Sure some may find newer things to their tastes and also there are still newcomers to the original hobby. But now there is other "thing" growing alongside.

This is probably uncharitable of me, but my opinion that when people bitch that their "thing" is no longer hot or the hobby is changing is that really the complaint is that they now have to actually work at "selling" their "thing". I am not sympathetic due to the fact it is rare I ever used the popular RPG or game of the time. I was always in a position where I had to sell Sandbox campaigns, Fantasy Hero, GURPS, and OD&D as something fun and interesting to play. Due to living in a rural area where I was often the only referee doing what I was doing.

Pundit makes a valid point in his video:

Matt Mercer sets the bar high for the average DM, to be able to capture and maintain the interest of new players.  That is a valid point.  Experienced players have more realistic expectations.

I must be weird because what I saw of Mercer's GMing seemed pretty typical GMing to me. Whereas Chris Perkins was clearly "playing at playing".

Quote from: estar;1070492I was always in a position where I had to sell Sandbox campaigns, Fantasy Hero, GURPS, and OD&D as something fun and interesting to play. Due to living in a rural area where I was often the only referee doing what I was doing.

Gurps and Hero are a hard sell in an urban area.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1070489I used to think that way, but then I got into X-Wing miniatures, and now the Transformers CCG, and I do enjoy watching youtube matches for those games. But I've become a fair bit competitive, and watch them for ideas and game play.
I wouldn't be interested to see some X-Wing match where the players were doing some goofy ass drama.

The difference here is that X-Wing is competitive, so much like baseball, you can get vested in the outcome. Watching people play an RPG is like doing some sort of interactive fiction but you have no input at all. Like, what's the point?

Quote from: Dimitrios;1070485This seems to be a generational thing. I hear that a popular activity with The Kids These Days(TM) is watching youtube videos of other people playing computer games rather than actually playing the games themselves. I don't get it, but whatever. Role Critical seems to be an extension of this.

Youtube has basically replaced TV for kids, and the main thing they do on Youtube is watch other people do stuff - play videogames, draw comics, eat disgusting things, prank one another, do silly sports competition, etc. Watching people play RPGs is just another manifestation of the sea change in what people want out of digital media.

Quote from: kythri;1070487Have any of ya'll read the article Pundit references in the video?

https://bleedingfool.com/rpg/remember-when-there-was-no-mercer-effect-to-worry-about/

Ultimately, is seems to me that the big concern here is that people are getting turned off from the hobby because they have this grand expectation (due Critical Role is misrepresenting D&D as some big almost-LARP nonsense), and the reality is so completely different, and they give up on the hobby because of that.

I think that concern is valid.  Statistically, disappointed customers are more likely to trash product/retailer than satisfied customers.  I can't expect that similar behavior doesn't happen in this context.  I honestly don't believe these "shows" are good for the hobby, long-term.

But live play on Youtube and Twitch are bringing in huge amounts of players, and most them are not stomping their feet and leaving disappointed. If 40k new players try D&D in 2019, and 10k are disappointed that it's not like Critical Role, that's still 30k new players.

Quote from: Razor 007;1070494Pundit makes a valid point in his video:

Matt Mercer sets the bar high for the average DM, to be able to capture and maintain the interest of new players.  That is a valid point.  Experienced players have more realistic expectations.

That is a valid point. I think showcasing 'elite' level DMing only increases the perceived barrier to entry for new DMs. Even though D&D has seen a massive increase in popularity in recent years, there's a dire shortage of DMs. And I think a big part of that is new players today think you need to be a rules master, a social coordinator, a voice actor, tremendously organized, and a masterful storyteller in order to DM the game.

I'm just thankful I learned the game when all you needed in order to DM was to sketch out a 20 room dungeon on a piece of graph paper, stock it with monsters and treasure, and be able to run the game system in a rudimentary way. A lot of us learned to DM at age 11-13. I doubt many kids that age today have the confidence to DM. Even the 30 year olds I've been playing with recently don't.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1070472Change is not always for the better.

Preach it!

I'm fairly leery of the influence streaming is having on the hobby. Yes, it has brought in tons of new players, and is one of the major reasons why 5E is doing so well. However the expectations these new players have is often very far off from the realities of playing D&D.

I've played one game so far under a new DM who watches Critical Role pretty religiously, and I have to admit, before I played in the first session, I was concerned that him coming from the "Mercer Zone" would be a problem, or at the very least would clash with my preferred style of play. It turned out that it was the best session I've had as a player in years. The DM was able to run a table with 6 players, many of them fairly new to D&D, that included tons of RP, exploration, and was actually light on the combat which worked out pretty well.

I guess my current concerns are now more about most of the party using phones/tablets for character sheets. I really dislike people not having a physical character sheet at the table, and I'm kinda bummed by D&D Beyond, using a character builder lacks context for where the material comes from. It was a downer that I was playing a Chain Pact Warlock, but the Wizard's familiar outshone my "upgraded" familiar because there are non-standard options floating around from random adventures. Fucking winged magical cats that can see the invisible, bullshit! (Tressym). What's the point of having a class that's supposed to be THE FAMILIAR build, when any old bastard with find familiar can have stuff just as good if not better...... sigh. (I don't mind calling people on shit (I'm usually the DM), so I did bring this up, and the Wizard's familiar was downgraded to a normal owl, but still, it sucked having to be the guy that screwed another player out of something, even though he needed DM permission for that familiar, and had just taken it).

Quote from: Brad;1070507The difference here is that X-Wing is competitive, so much like baseball, you can get vested in the outcome. Watching people play an RPG is like doing some sort of interactive fiction but you have no input at all. Like, what's the point?

True.

I had a GM try to emulate "Mercer". We had combats in between overly detailed narrative descriptions about an environment empty of anything except for monster encounters.

Quote from: Haffrung;1070510I'm just thankful I learned the game when all you needed in order to DM was to sketch out a 20 room dungeon on a piece of graph paper, stock it with monsters and treasure, and be able to run the game system in a rudimentary way. A lot of us learned to DM at age 11-13. I doubt many kids that age today have the confidence to DM. Even the 30 year olds I've been playing with recently don't.

Twenty rooms?! You guys were pretty demanding!

I have the same observation; people seem terrified by the high expectations they imagine for themselves as a DM, even when they have observed experienced DMs make glaring mistakes in games they're playing in, and even if they're playing modules/campaign books and not having to make much up on their own.

Quote from: Aglondir;1070501Gurps and Hero are a hard sell in an urban area.

Amen to that. I have trouble even understanding why, except misperception and bad "press" from people who are adverse even to the concept of math. Which kind of goes to one point which I do agree with Pundit on. The trend of watching shows of hobbies tends to often build expectations to an unrealistic point. As such those with those inflated expectations are quickly disillusioned and will often leave the hobby. This actually, to me, is a perk. I prefer those dedicated to the process rather than those expecting a particular experience. They can get that from the videos with little "risk" of an unfulfilling or unpleasant experience which is always possible in the wild west of real life. On the other hand, I wouldn't be playing at all these days if it weren't for Critical Role, as the group I am playing with now got turned on to 5E from watching it. So it's a mixed bag...

Quote from: S'mon;1070500I must be weird because what I saw of Mercer's GMing seemed pretty typical GMing to me. Whereas Chris Perkins was clearly "playing at playing".

Perkins always seemed legit to me.

Critical Role and the Adventurer's League are both just advertising for D&D 5E.

People are only now catching on that some of that may be false advertising.

Quote from: jeff37923;1070529Critical Role and the Adventurer's League are both just advertising for D&D 5E.

People are only now catching on that some of that may be false advertising.

To be honest though it's on the consumer not on either organization. I do not enjoy Critical role yet if I go to one bakery providing smoke meat baked into a loaf of bread. Then stupidly assume all bakeries provide that service the error is on me not the bakery. People need more common sense imo. It's like at my job where people get offended that I tell them they are responsible providing their apt number. Where some insist vehemently they need to be asked. As apparently being asked for their address mean giving their apt number is optional.

As for Hero and Gurps it's less the math I think and more the presentation. Hero Games did not do themselves any favors with releasing not one but two core books that look like they would not be out of place in a physics course. Gurps and Hero also suffer from having Savage Worlds and Fate being able to do the same with less complexity. I'm a fan of both yet realize they would be a tough sell. It's not for the player to bend over backwards to learn an rpg. It's a hobby for me not a damn job.