That's a sweet idea TGA. This reminds me, I have to have a time travel/future episode in the campaign

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RThat's a sweet idea TGA. This reminds me, I have to have a time travel/future episode in the campaign

Regards,
David R

Definitely!  And don't forget about these guys.  


TGA

Quote from: The Good AssyrianThe point is that non-humans obviously have a lot more presence in the Federation of the 24th Century, and some in the "old boys club" probably don't like that very much.

Of course, it's not because of "bigotry" or any such out-dated, pre-WWIII foolishness.  It's because non-humans simply don't bear humanity's best interests at heart, and someone needs to insure that those same interests are promoted in a pluralistic society such as the Federation.  Freedom and equality can't be maintained through inaction.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaOf course, it's not because of "bigotry" or any such out-dated, pre-WWIII foolishness.  It's because non-humans simply don't bear humanity's best interests at heart, and someone needs to insure that those same interests are promoted in a pluralistic society such as the Federation.  Freedom and equality can't be maintained through inaction.

Interesting, I could be reading you wrong Ian - and I'm not to hip to the various Trek cultures - but are you implying that non-human cultures would come into conflict with the concepts of freedom and equality ?

Regards,
David R

I was being wry and, frankly, making a bit of a jab at contemporary politics, which is totally a "Trek" thing to do.  I was referring to how some members of majority populations, having accepted minority populations as equals, begin to worry that perhaps the monorities aren't treating them as equals.  In the terms that TGA was using, when the "old boys' club" surrenders their position of pre-eminence, they feel the need to defend adamantly what they have left from all perceived threats, proven or suspected.  As I suggested previously, they don't see this as bigotry, it's just common sense to watch out for your own.

Hey, and as long as I've raised the ugly spectre of bigotry in Star Trek, is there any room to discuss the rampant miscegenation depicted on the show?

!i!

[Edit: It's probably worth noting that what I've been going on about above is entirely speculative, and not, to my knowledge, reflected in Star Trek canon.]

Quote from: Ian Absentia[Edit: It's probably worth noting that what I've been going on about above is entirely speculative, and not, to my knowledge, reflected in Star Trek canon.]

Don't worry about canon. A good idea/concept trumps canon anytime during the week and twice on Sundays

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaI was being wry and, frankly, making a bit of a jab at contemporary politics, which is totally a "Trek" thing to do.  I was referring to how some members of majority populations, having accepted minority populations as equals, begin to worry that perhaps the monorities aren't treating them as equals.  In the terms that TGA was using, when the "old boys' club" surrenders their position of pre-eminence, they feel the need to defend adamantly what they have left from all perceived threats, proven or suspected.  As I suggested previously, they don't see this as bigotry, it's just common sense to watch out for your own.

All outstanding points, Ian!  I might also be tempted to expand the "old boys' club" of the 24th Century to include the other "Founders", like the Vulcans, Andorians, etc.  These are species that have worked hand in hand for more than two centuries, so they may have understandings and connections with one another that they don't share with the latecomers.  

We see a lot of Vulcan influence in TOS, and there are non-canon (and some canon with Enterprise) indications that the Andorians are real power players in the early Federation, with even an entire group of Starfleet vessels manned exclusively by Andorian crews.  In the end, intelligence organizations being what they are, they tend to recruit people that the founders of the organization share a bond of trust and identity with, be that through shared experience such as university, service in a particular military unit, or through tribal and family connections.  Over time, this would naturally become less prevalent as the organization expands, but there would still be a tendency for these elites to form formal or informal groups within the organization.  

And while we are on the topic of the Vulcans, is it just me or does anyone else think that they have the capacity to be manipulative, murderous bastards?  We see some of this idea developed in Voyager and especially in Enterprise, but you get hints of it even in TOS.  In "Amok Time", for example we see an ugly side of Vulcan logic; not the primeval combat, but rather the cold manipulations of T'Pring that led to it.  And that whole "Vulcans never lie" jive always struck me as good PR for people who like to set themselves up as the peacemakers.  There has to be an element within the Vulcan devotion to cold logic that would make them particularly adept spooks.  And remember that "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one", can be an excellent justification for some extremely morally delicate acts...

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaHey, and as long as I've raised the ugly spectre of bigotry in Star Trek, is there any room to discuss the rampant miscegenation depicted on the show?

It was always good enough for Kirk!:D

Quote from: Ian Absentia[Edit: It's probably worth noting that what I've been going on about above is entirely speculative, and not, to my knowledge, reflected in Star Trek canon.]

I agree with David on this one.  Canon for me is just the jumping off point!



TGA

Quote from: The Good AssyrianAnd while we are on the topic of the Vulcans, is it just me or does anyone else think that they have the capacity to be manipulative, murderous bastards?

Yes. There has been some talk amongst my crew about how to portray Vulcans. Spock was relatively benign but Tuvok on the other at times was barely able to hide his contempt for humanity. I don't have to tell you which way my players are leaning :raise:

Regards,
David R

LUG had an interesting bit about the Fed. Merchant Marine in their Federation sourcebook (The Price of Freedom) which I always enjoyed.

The dichotomy of the lives of the people inside the "paradise" of the Federation and those living on the fringe outside of Eden, as viewed from the deck of a transport moving between the two "worlds," might be utilized in some fashion to shift the PCs toward a more Marquis friendly stance....

Eh, I had something here, but lost it.  Anyway, you get my drift.

Dang drain bamage.

Quote from: The Good AssyrianI might also be tempted to expand the "old boys' club" of the 24th Century to include the other "Founders", like the Vulcans, Andorians, etc.  These are species that have worked hand in hand for more than two centuries, so they may have understandings and connections with one another that they don't share with the latecomers.

You know, I was thinking about this just this morning.  I didn't follow Enterprise even through its first full season, but one thing that I liked was how the Earthlings were being treated like upstart children by the Vulcans, yet, by the end of the series Earth's humans were the ones to found the Federation.  It was humanity's very brashness and vibrancy that allowed them to quickly eclipse and take the point from long-established space-faring societies.  Now, in Star Trek this seems to have worked out well for humanity, but for a darker take on how such a thing might go down, read David Brin's various Uplift novels.  The older, established societies don't always take kindly to the upstarts, no matter how "right" they may be.

QuoteAnd while we are on the topic of the Vulcans, is it just me or does anyone else think that they have the capacity to be manipulative, murderous bastards?

My favorite feature of "Mirror, Mirror" is that, while the rest of Kirk's crew aboard the Enterprise are evil, murderous bastards in the "mirror" universe, Spock is exactly the same.  That says a lot for Vulcan logic (or at least Spock as a person).  Your point about T'Pring as seen in "Amok Time" is well taken.

Regarding interstellar miscegenation:

QuoteIt was always good enough for Kirk!:D

Now, to be clear, Kirk would boff anything that resembled a human female.  Riker took this a little further and would boff anything that said it was female, humanoid or not.  This is all totally fine, and even kind of hot.  What I'm referring to, though, is the apparent ease of fertility between humanoid species in Star Trek.  Hand-waving some obvious sloppiness (like compatibility between iron-based human blood and copper-based Vulcan blood in a fellow like Spock), this actually goes a long way toward supporting a theory I've had for a while: All "humanoids" seen in Star Trek are, in fact, the same species.  It's like wolves and dogs -- they can freely interbreed, and so should really be considered the same species.  This theory is somewhat supported by the TNG episode "The Chase", wherein members of the Federation, the Klingons, and the Romulans arrive at a world with a recorded message from a race of ancient humanoids that explains that they purposefully seeded various worlds with their genetic matrix to give rise to other humanoid species over the eons.

!i!

Quote from: David RYes. There has been some talk amongst my crew about how to portray Vulcans. Spock was relatively benign but Tuvok on the other at times was barely able to hide his contempt for humanity.

Spock had the benefit (from a human perspective) of being brought up by a human mother.  He didn't cherish the baser side of human nature, but he understood it and accepted it.  Tuvok, on the other hand, was a pure Vulcan through and through (except when they did that horrid episode wherein, as a result of a transporter accident, he was combined with that weasely bastard Neelix).  Perhaps Tuvok is more representative of Vulcan attitudes toward their human compatriates.  His attitude certainly seems to be more in line with that expressed by the Vulcans depicted in Enterprise.

By the way, my only regret with the portrayal of Tuvok was the depiction of a one-for-one correspondence between human and Vulcan racial ethnicities.  Make no mistake, I thought Tim Russ did a fantastic job at portraying the character, but I was always uncomfortable with the notion that Vulcan racial ethnicities could be broken down into negroid and caucasian, and not, say, pale green and dark green.  On the up-side, though, perhaps this only strengthens my theory that humans and Vulcans (and virtually everyone else) are, in fact, the same species.

!i!

Not to throw fuel on the fire ;-) But I always found this essay compelling.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Trek-Marxism.html

It is about how the Federation is a communist nation.

Quote from: estarNot to throw fuel on the fire ;-) But I always found this essay compelling.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Trek-Marxism.html

It is about how the Federation is a communist nation.

I like and agree with it.

And, by fiat of the writers, it's communism that works (though the author of the article disagrees).

!i!

Interesting link estar. I have sent it to my players

Communism that works. Interesting.

Let's stay with this for a moment. A couple of questions for those interested...

1. What is the function and implication of the Prime Directive if one agrees that the Federation is a communist system?

2. I've always gotten a "something is rotten in the state of Denmark" vibe from the later series of Trek , which I assumed was a reaction against the Utopian nature of the Federation.

Regards,
David R