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Chaosium is introducing a new generic BRP fantasy game, Magic World (http://www.chaosium.com/article.php?story_id=508). Essentially, it takes the Elric!/Stormbringer rules, strips out the Young Kingdoms bits, and adds in generic fantasy elements from assorted BRP books.

All of which is cool with me, but... there's one bit of weirdness.

The game goes with attributes influencing skills -- something that Elric!/Stormbringer lacked and something that I'm all for. And yet...

Agility skills are based on Strength. These include Brawl, Climb, Dodge, Jump, Ride, Swim, Throw, Wrestle, and all melee weapons.

And among the races, dwarves are stereotypically strong and elves are stereotypically nimble.

Which means that dwarves are better at dodging than are elves.

That strikes me as being really, really odd. It's an easy fix, especially if you happen to own the Basic Roleplaying core book with its own attribute/skill options, but still... odd.

Am I alone in thinking that?

hadn't heard of this one.  could it be a typo?  guess you could house-rule it to dex instead.

Quote from: beeber;522864hadn't heard of this one.  could it be a typo?  guess you could house-rule it to dex instead.

Nope, not a typo. I've talked to the author about it.

Essentially, the BRP core book offers two ways for attributes to influence skills: the Primary/Secondary/Negative attribute method from RuneQuest III, or just taking the Primary attribute/2. The author went the second route; however, where the BRP core uses either Dexterity or Intelligence as the Primary for every skill group, the author of Magic World chose to use a different attribute for each skill group.

Quote from: Dan Davenport;522862Agility skills are based on Strength. These include Brawl, Climb, Dodge, Jump, Ride, Swim, Throw, Wrestle, and all melee weapons.

Of those Dodge to me is the odd one out as the rest all are highly dependent upon physical strength.

But, tbh, this is more due to the fact that the standard Attributes were used to seeing make little real world sense. Agility is mainly a factor of muscle mass enabling you to move quicker, which is a type of Strength anyway. The idea that you can dodge like a ballerina and not be able to crack walnuts between you thighs, like a ballerina, is weird RPG thing.

When I think of graceful and nimble I think more elf than dwarf so, yeah, that seems a bit odd.

On a tangent, Magic World was the title of the fantasy element of Worlds Of Wonder, Chaosium's first stab at BRP. There were three books in the Worlds Of Wonder box set (four if you count the BRP pamphlet), Magic World, Super World and Future World.

Dan, I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

Let's suppose we have Strongius the Dwarf, STR 20, he's really strong! and Weakius the Elf, STR 4, a very weak elf. Well, according to the rules of Magic World, Strongius would get a +10 bonus to dodge, whereas Weakius would get a +2. Under the same conditions, Strongius' dodge skill would be +8 higher, and this is a very extreme example (STR 20 is very high, STR 4 is very, very low).

Do you really think a +8 makes such a significant difference?

It doesn't make that much of a difference, however, it's still wonky.

If we want to create artificial limitations on skills, or avoid making two attributes more useful than the rest, there are better ways to accomplish it.

• Have each skill have it's own attribute calculation base (Legend), probably the best way to approach it.
• You could have bonuses based on race, background, etc. Just divorce the link between attributes and skills altogether.
• Just set max starting skill values, with a base based on attribute/2.
• Set the base to a value based on complexity, rarity, or learning required. Again, just divorce the link.
• Some combination of the above.

These kinds of disconnects may not be "mechanically" significant, but having them skew your impressions in the "world of make believe" can make them significant. At least on the surface, which could be important to a player's verisimilitude. I would change it, if I was to GM the game.

Quote from: Dan Davenport;522862Agility skills are based on Strength. These include Brawl, Climb, Dodge, Jump, Ride, Swim, Throw, Wrestle, and all melee weapons.

Other games put most of these under Strength, and I did the same when I copied their structures for my own homebrews.

But Throw strikes me as borderline.  Ride strikes me as odd.  Dodge seems really strange being under a strength stat.

Quote from: trechriron;522882These kinds of disconnects may not be "mechanically" significant, but having them skew your impressions in the "world of make believe" can make them significant. At least on the surface, which could be important to a player's verisimilitude. I would change it, if I was to GM the game.

This is my feeling on the matter exactly.

I mean, the game could give a seemingly insignificant bonus to combat based on Appearance, and it would still throw me off.

Sounds like poor design to me.

Sounds like one more designer who doesn't give a shit about believability to me.

You said you talked to the author about this, Dan. What did he answer?

Quote from: Claudius;522870Dan, I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

Let's suppose we have Strongius the Dwarf, STR 20, he's really strong! and Weakius the Elf, STR 4, a very weak elf. Well, according to the rules of Magic World, Strongius would get a +10 bonus to dodge, whereas Weakius would get a +2. Under the same conditions, Strongius' dodge skill would be +8 higher, and this is a very extreme example (STR 20 is very high, STR 4 is very, very low).

Do you really think a +8 makes such a significant difference?

+1

To be honest, this is a bit of a grey area. If you are wearing chainmail - grade armour or heavier, your capability of dodging will depend more on your endurance and strength, rather then agility.

Then again, dodging wasn't a big thing before rapiers.

But the swordplay ought to be more connected to dex. Brawling though, not so much.

That's weird indeed, but sounds easy to fix.

Any other strangeness we should know of?

Also, can we expect a GMshoe review?

Quote from: Benoist;522899Sounds like one more designer who doesn't give a shit about believability to me.

You said you talked to the author about this, Dan. What did he answer?

Hmm... Looking back on the thread, doesn't look like he answered specifically.

Quote from: The Butcher;522910That's weird indeed, but sounds easy to fix.

Yup. In fact, the author's considering including the attribute rules from the BRP core rulebook.

Quote from: The Butcher;522910Any other strangeness we should know of?

Not so far, but I've only done a bit of skimming of an unfinished version of the book. I do know that the Elric!/Stormbringer rules are really solid.

Quote from: The Butcher;522910Also, can we expect a GMshoe review?

Indeed you can. :)

It doesn't strike me as all that weird... or wrong... or bad.
Real-life agility seems like something I'd equate with being an athlete or a dancer. Not brute lifting force so much as overall body strength. I picture an elf as being able to run faster than a dwarf, but I'm not sure which I'd expect to be harder to hit. Partially because of size.
At worst it seems like a matter of interpretation rather than a "designer who doesn't give a shit about believability..."

Quote from: Simlasa;522956It doesn't strike me as all that weird... or wrong... or bad.
Real-life agility seems like something I'd equate with being an athlete or a dancer. Not brute lifting force so much as overall body strength. I picture an elf as being able to run faster than a dwarf, but I'm not sure which I'd expect to be harder to hit. Partially because of size.
At worst it seems like a matter of interpretation rather than a "designer who doesn't give a shit about believability..."

This is theRPGSite; it's imperative that we freak out over minor shit.  It's in the by-laws.

Quote from: misterguignol;522958This is theRPGSite; it's imperative that we freak out over minor shit.  It's in the by-laws.

Well, what else we can do on Sunday mornings, I ask you? What else?

PS - you don't get to ride THAT high horse :P.

And as I had said - it's really a dodgy area.

Light armour or no armour - Dodge with bonus from DEX
Medium to heavy armour - STR.

Quote from: Simlasa;522956It doesn't strike me as all that weird... or wrong... or bad.
Real-life agility seems like something I'd equate with being an athlete or a dancer. Not brute lifting force so much as overall body strength. I picture an elf as being able to run faster than a dwarf, but I'm not sure which I'd expect to be harder to hit. Partially because of size.
At worst it seems like a matter of interpretation rather than a "designer who doesn't give a shit about believability..."

This.

Dodging depends a lot on being fit. I can picture a strong man being good at dodging, but I cannot picture a weakling being good at dodging. I don't understand the skepticism of some of you.

If I don't say this, I will explode. I'm flabbergasted to see that the people who claim this is bad design, that it breaks their suspension of disbelief, etc, are fans of D&D (not all, but a majority), the game in which you can have 40 hp and a sword makes 1d8 damage. The pot called the kettle black. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Claudius;523057If I don't say this, I will explode. I'm flabbergasted to see that the people who claim this is bad design, that it breaks their suspension of disbelief, etc, are fans of D&D (not all, but a majority), the game in which you can have 40 hp and a sword makes 1d8 damage. The pot called the kettle black. :rolleyes:

Yeeeep.  People have *ahem* interesting internal paradoxes concerning verisimilitude, immersion, and emulation.

I don't find it odd for a dwarf to be better at any facet of combat than an elf.

I remember an old AH game called Magic Realm, where the dwarf had an truly awesome duck ability.

Ducking is a kind of dodge, right?

Full retard decision that seems like such an obvious oversight I'm skeptical of the rest of the product.

Quote from: Dan Davenport;522862Chaosium is introducing a new generic BRP fantasy game, Magic World (http://www.chaosium.com/article.php?story_id=508). Essentially, it takes the Elric!/Stormbringer rules, strips out the Young Kingdoms bits, and adds in generic fantasy elements from assorted BRP books.

All of which is cool with me, but... there's one bit of weirdness.

The game goes with attributes influencing skills -- something that Elric!/Stormbringer lacked and something that I'm all for. And yet...

Agility skills are based on Strength. These include Brawl, Climb, Dodge, Jump, Ride, Swim, Throw, Wrestle, and all melee weapons.

And among the races, dwarves are stereotypically strong and elves are stereotypically nimble.

Which means that dwarves are better at dodging than are elves.

That strikes me as being really, really odd. It's an easy fix, especially if you happen to own the Basic Roleplaying core book with its own attribute/skill options, but still... odd.

Am I alone in thinking that?

It sounds like something that belongs in Murphy's Rules (http://www.sjgames.com/murphys/).

Quote from: B.T.;523072Full retard decision that seems like such an obvious oversight I'm skeptical of the rest of the product.

And this clinches the fact that there's nothing wrong with it as far as I'm concerned.

Who is easier to hit Jacky Chan or Andre the Giant ?

But of course how do you define Strength?

Who is stronger Andre the Giant or Minoru Yoshida who's record for non stop pushups of 10,507 has remained unbroken for over 30 years .....

If damage is a result of Str * Siz (like in say 1e V&V) then the small wirey guy might be stronger than the brawny Barbarian jut doesn't deal as much damage.

just sayin.....

Quick update: The author didn't realize that he'd inadvertently made dwarves more nimble than elves and is going to fix the issue. He's also going to try to make room for the optional full list of modifiers (Primary/Secondary/Negative).

Quote from: Dan Davenport;523103Quick update: The author didn't realize that he'd inadvertently made dwarves more nimble than elves and is going to fix the issue. He's also going to try to make room for the optional full list of modifiers (Primary/Secondary/Negative).

And another game is saved!

HUZZAH!!
:D

Quote from: Claudius;523054This.

Dodging depends a lot on being fit. I can picture a strong man being good at dodging, but I cannot picture a weakling being good at dodging. I don't understand the skepticism of some of you.

i have to say that i understand the "str" as opposed to "dex" version of dodge, now.  thanks to those for explaining their rationale!

Quote from: jeff37923;523111And another game is saved!

HUZZAH!!
:D

Heh. :)

To be specific: He's going with the BRP semi-standard ruling of base Dodge being DEX x 2, and then he's keeping 1/2 Strength as a bonus on top of that. I can live with that. :)

Quote from: Dan Davenport;523146He's going with the BRP semi-standard ruling of base Dodge being DEX x 2, and then he's keeping 1/2 Strength as a bonus on top of that. I can live with that. :)

Yeah, that sounds pretty decent to me.
STR makes sense to me as a modifier of Ride as well... having noted how sore my thigh muscles have been after riding horses (gripping to hold on).

From what I'm reading this new Magic World is looking like something I'm going to enjoy.

Quote from: Sigmund;523066I don't find it odd for a dwarf to be better at any facet of combat than an elf.

But but but they are ugly and can't be played by Orlando Bloom!

Quote from: Rincewind1;523150But but but they are ugly and can't be played by Richard Armitage!

Fixed that for you.

Quote from: The Butcher;523154Fixed that for you.

He played an elf in a movie? :confused:

Or is that just a pun on the fact that he is what women consider "cake"?

Ah nevermind. Saw the note that he's stared as Oakenshield.

Quote from: B.T.;523072Full retard decision that seems like such an obvious oversight I'm skeptical of the rest of the product.

The game itself is based on Elric! (a.k.a. Stormbringer 5e), which is probably the most solid BRP-based fantasy role-playing game ever published (rivaled only by RuneQuest).

Quote from: Akrasia;523192The game itself is based on Elric! (a.k.a. Stormbringer 5e), which is probably the most solid BRP-based fantasy role-playing game ever published (rivaled only by RuneQuest).

I'd call basing your fighting system on one described in game simulating combat between naval ships a bit more of, to quote...

Quote from: B.T.;523072Full retard decision that seems like such an obvious oversight I'm skeptical of the rest of the product.

Quote from: Simlasa;523148...
From what I'm reading this new Magic World is looking like something I'm going to enjoy.

Yeah, this exceptionally minor issue aside, the game itself looks like it'll be gold. :D

I've long wondered why Chaosium didn't simply scrub off the Moorcock references from Elric! and publish it as a 'generic' FRPG.  It's a great game.

Now that OpenQuest and Legend (MRQII) are available, and soon RuneQuest 6, there are plenty of excellent BRP-based fantasy rpg options.

Quote from: Rincewind1;523193I'd call basing your fighting system on one described in game simulating combat between naval ships a bit more of, to quote...

Um, what?!? :confused:

Quote from: Akrasia;523195Um, what?!? :confused:

Armour Class being taken from Ironclad ;). Compared to "Dex being not responsive for Dodge", it's a rather minor (and controversial, if at all) slip :P.

And yes, I am joking. But the "ZOMG HOW COULD HE GET OUT OF DOOOOODGE" here was rather hilarious.

PS - is that Cthulhu made by a barista or am I blind? In your avatar, I mean.

Quote from: Rincewind1;523193I'd call basing your fighting system on one described in game simulating combat between naval ships a bit more of, to quote...

Yeah, wtf are you talking about?  There's no Armor Class in Elric! or Stormbringer.

Quote from: misterguignol;523199Yeah, wtf are you talking about?  There's no Armor Class in Elric! or Stormbringer.

I was making same joke as Claudius (in a more obscure way), because I failed to notice he had pointed out the irony here before I did.

Pots calling the kettle black, so to speak.

Quote from: Rincewind1;523196Armour Class being taken from Ironclad ;). Compared to "Dex being not responsive for Dodge", it's a rather minor (and controversial, if at all) slip :P.

And yes, I am joking. But the "ZOMG HOW COULD HE GET OUT OF DOOOOODGE" here was rather hilarious.

So you were making a dig at D&D, not BRP/Elric!?

Quote from: Rincewind1;523196PS - is that Cthulhu made by a barista or am I blind? In your avatar, I mean.

Served at the finest cafe in R'lyeh!

Quote from: Akrasia;523203So you were making a dig at D&D, not BRP/Elric!?

How could I? ;). And really more making a dig that the really bizarre design decisions never stopped the game from being more then playable. Not to mention that Dodge based on STR, as it was quite a few times pointed here, is not as absurd as it may seem. I think I might use STR + DEX as base dodge chance in my BRP games from now on*.

QuoteServed at the finest cafe in R'lyeh!

Well I do guess that R'lyeh would be a great location for cafe business, for the day everyone wakes up.


*Fair is fair - Strength and Toughness in Warhammer, as per their damage/damage reduction relation, aren't exactly perfect (or at times, sensible at all).

Quote from: Akrasia;523203Served at the finest cafe in R'lyeh!

just don't listen too closely to their overhead music. . . .

Quote from: Dan Davenport;523103Quick update: The author didn't realize that he'd inadvertently made dwarves more nimble than elves and is going to fix the issue. He's also going to try to make room for the optional full list of modifiers (Primary/Secondary/Negative).

To be specific, when Dan called it out to me, I noticed that there was a "Dodge 20%" base chance listed in the Elf species writeup which should have not been listed at all.

The game was always intended to have DEX x2 as the Dodge base chance, and then get a STR-based modifer for being in the "Physical" skills category.

It wasn't really any sort of design fuckup, or 'redardation' as one poster charmingly put it. It was just something I missed in editing the bestiary.

It's fixed now.

Quote from: zomben;523590To be specific, when Dan called it out to me, I noticed that there was a "Dodge 20%" base chance listed in the Elf species writeup which should have not been listed at all.

The game was always intended to have DEX x2 as the Dodge base chance, and then get a STR-based modifer for being in the "Physical" skills category.

It wasn't really any sort of design fuckup, or 'redardation' as one poster charmingly put it. It was just something I missed in editing the bestiary.

It's fixed now.

Don't worry about it. You learn quickly on this forum to either ignore or openly mock the individuals who seem to believe their ill-informed opinions are worth any more than entertainment value around here.

Quote from: Claudius;523057If I don't say this, I will explode. I'm flabbergasted to see that the people who claim this is bad design, that it breaks their suspension of disbelief, etc, are fans of D&D (not all, but a majority), the game in which you can have 40 hp and a sword makes 1d8 damage. The pot called the kettle black. :rolleyes:

Ok. Just saw this.

If really you don't see the difference between those two you either (1) have no idea what hit points actually represent in the D&D game, or the nature of the abstraction of a combat round in the game (truer in earlier rather than later editions of the game), or (2) can't make the distinction between an abstraction and an assumption that would go directly against one's own expectations in terms of emulation of the game's system.

Either way, your BRP fanboyism has misguided you on this one, I'm afraid (I'm a HUGE BRP fan myself, so I forgive you... ;) :D )

Quote from: beeber;523327just don't listen too closely to their overhead music. . . .

iZann, Music from Beyond, eh?

Quote from: misterguignol;522958This is theRPGSite; it's imperative that we freak out over minor shit.  It's in the by-laws.

Oh thank goodness someone said that. I was getting worried.

Quote from: Sigmund;523600Don't worry about it. You learn quickly on this forum to either ignore or openly mock the individuals who seem to believe their ill-informed opinions are worth any more than entertainment value around here.

One of many reasons I don't come to this forum very often at all. I wouldn't have even chimed in to this thread if a pal hadn't directed me to it.

Quote from: Benoist;523606Ok. Just saw this.

Here we go! :)

QuoteIf really you don't see the difference between those two you either (1) have no idea what hit points actually represent in the D&D game, or the nature of the abstraction of a combat round in the game (truer in earlier rather than later editions of the game), or (2) can't make the distinction between an abstraction and an assumption that would go directly against one's own expectations in terms of emulation of the game's system.

I have my own ideas about what hit points represent in D&D*. All RPGs are abstract, necessarily, RPGs are just a kind of simulation game. But not all RPGs have the same level of abstraction (some are more abstract than others), just like some games are closer to reality than others. In this case, I found that the way D&D BECM handles damage totally breaks my suspension of disbelief.

I get that hit points in D&D are an abstraction (like in any other game, like GURPS, BRP, etc), but I feel that said abstraction goes against verosimilitude.

QuoteEither way, your BRP fanboyism has misguided you on this one,

True, I'm a BRP fanboy, I can't deny it. :o

QuoteI'm afraid (I'm a HUGE BRP fan myself, so I forgive you... ;) :D )

Thank you! ;)

*= I hated the way hit points work in D&D until I had a revelation. It's a cleverer idea than I thought at first. D&D hit points make characters more durable, so they can resist more combats than in other games.

Quote from: zomben;523671One of many reasons I don't come to this forum very often at all. I wouldn't have even chimed in to this thread if a pal hadn't directed me to it.

I'm glad to see you here (even if you don't want to come back), and you have every right to have your own opinion, but I can't let this pass and not defend this forum. A lot of posters have stated their opinions, some of them I don't agree with, but that's fine. If I don't agree with someone, I can tell them "you know what, I don't agree with you because of such and such...", and if someone insults me, I can choose either to insult them back or ignore them.

Unlike a certain forum I-am-sure-you-know, where you can be mocked and insulted for having the wrong opinion, but if you answer them, not necessarily with insults, you get banned.