If you were desiging an lotr rpg (as is actually happening with Cubicle 7), would you do it in such a way that allows, maybe prompts (surreptitiously), players to convert the stuff you can't use (ie the Silmarillion) given how germaine that is to the setting as a whole?
I can't really say I understand your question. Do you mean creating a game broad enough in tone and mechanics to allow for the use of such sources as the Silmarillion, eras such as the First and Second Age of Middle-earth, instead of just focussing narrowly on the War of the Ring?
I think the implication is that you only have rights to the material in LotR so would you risk a lawsuit by making reference or encouraging reference to the backstroy stuff.
Personally I woudl have negotiated a contact that stressed the in depth nature of hte LotR and the key importance of setting and history and as such made that content fair game. I mean its not like there are a bunch of guys gagging to make a silmarilion RPG so the estate shoudl use its nouse and be aware that a more realised world can only make the game more sucessful and therefore lead to higher profits long term.
Quote from: jibbajibba;363795I think the implication is that you only have rights to the material in LotR so would you risk a lawsuit by making reference or encouraging reference to the backstroy stuff.
Personally I woudl have negotiated a contact that stressed the in depth nature of hte LotR and the key importance of setting and history and as such made that content fair game. I mean its not like there are a bunch of guys gagging to make a silmarilion RPG so the estate shoudl use its nouse and be aware that a more realised world can only make the game more sucessful and therefore lead to higher profits long term.
I might be way off the mark with this as I'm paraphrasing a friend who is far more invested in Tolkien and his mythology than I but I think there are two seperate entities who own seperate parts of this IP? One group owns the rights license to the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings (the name of this group escapes me), while the other (the Tolkien Estate) owns the Silmarillion and all of Tolkien's notes. If memory serves, Christopher Tolkien himself is rather inimical towards roleplaying?
Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;363799I might be way off the mark with this as I'm paraphrasing a friend who is far more invested in Tolkien and his mythology than I but I think there are two seperate entities who own seperate parts of this IP? One group owns the rights license to the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings (the name of this group escapes me), while the other (the Tolkien Estate) owns the Silmarillion and all of Tolkien's notes. If memory serves, Christopher Tolkien himself is rather inimical towards roleplaying?
This is exactly correct. This company - Tolkien Enterprises - negotiated the rights to commercialization of the Hobbit and the LotR with Professor Tolkien himself in the sixties, much like Amarillo Design negotiated a gaming license with Gene Rodenberry for Star Trek TOS in the sixties. These licenses are basically perpetual, so long as the licensee keeps to their end of the bargain. The Tolkien Estate is not interested in licensing anything it owns for gaming, for whatever reason, so there cannot be any game based in whole or in part on the Silmarillion without drawing down a big lawsuit from the Tolkien Estate, who would *love* to get control of the Hobbit and LotR back from Tolkien Enterprises.
So, basically any movie/game/tvshow/whatever licensing rights from Tolkien Enterprises is limited to the Hobbit, the LotR Trilogy, and the appendices in RotK.
-clash
Okay. That makes the OP clearer. Thanks Clash and Jibba.
So. Yes, I would want a system that is broad enough in scope to be able to use material from the Silmarillion and other non-negociated Tolkienian sources.
We can debate all day long about how MERP did or did not do this, but I do remember some excellent adventures published during the 80s and 90s in French gaming magazines that took place during the First Age (during and around the time period of Barahir, immediately in the aftermath of Dagor Bragollach, IIRC).
Now, my ideal is to have something comparable to MERP in terms of scope and versatility of the rules, but at the same time, I want them to be more specific to Middle-earth, its history and cosmology, in particular. This means, for instance, no mages wielding fireballs and casting lightning bolts besides the Istari, to give a specific example, or a treatment of the healing techniques of the Eldar that aren't just clerical spells disguised - these aren't spells, to begin with.
I may be risking bringing some form of wrath down upon my head for suggesting this- Burning Wheel, though it doesn't specifically use any Tolkien terminology accomplishes the feel (at least within the text of the game) rather nicely. I don't care much for the ruleset, but the treatment of its "elven skills" is an especially nice implementation of your last request:
Quote...or a treatment of the healing techniques of the Eldar that aren't just clerical spells disguised - these aren't spells, to begin with.
Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;363812I may be risking bringing some form of wrath down upon my head for suggesting this- Burning Wheel, though it doesn't specifically use any Tolkien terminology accomplishes the feel (at least within the text of the game) rather nicely. I don't care much for the ruleset, but the treatment of its "elven skills" is an especially nice implementation of your last request:
LOL yeah. The Flaming Keystrokes of Truth, indeed. Well, I don't know Burning Wheel, so you're not going to get flames from me on that front. It does have elven skills now, does it?
Quote from: Benoist;363815LOL yeah. The Flaming Keystrokes of Truth, indeed. Well, I don't know Burning Wheel, so you're not going to get flames from me on that front. It does have elven skills now, does it?
The original Burning Wheel was a trad RPG designed to emulate the feel of LotR, which was latched onto by the Forge. It only became explicitly Forgish with BW Revised, though less so than the other Burning * games which came later.
-clash
I've never really understood the need for an LoTR specific RPG when compared to other RPG's. The only real distinction beyond naming things is how magic works and in LoTR magic is generally not in the hands of the players.
I have fond memories of playing a LoTR campaign using WFRP v1 for a good long while back in the days where the animated movies were the only known ones. To do so we limited some of the careers and left magic as that mysterious thing that is in the hands of the GM.
Quote from: Benoist;363815LOL yeah. The Flaming Keystrokes of Truth, indeed. Well, I don't know Burning Wheel, so you're not going to get flames from me on that front. It does have elven skills now, does it?
It does (I wanted to take a look at my copy of it before elaborating further), many of which are described in terms of their lyrical or musical qualities. It makes the attempt also to differentiate between the skills of different races. The Elven Lyric of Healing is different mechanically, than say the general skill known as Surgery.
Quote from: jibbajibba;363795I think the implication is that you only have rights to the material in LotR so would you risk a lawsuit by making reference or encouraging reference to the backstroy stuff.
Personally I woudl have negotiated a contact that stressed the in depth nature of hte LotR and the key importance of setting and history and as such made that content fair game. I mean its not like there are a bunch of guys gagging to make a silmarilion RPG so the estate shoudl use its nouse and be aware that a more realised world can only make the game more sucessful and therefore lead to higher profits long term.
What you propose is impossible. Tolkien Enterprises hasn't got the rights to the Silmarillion, and the Tolkien Estate won't license anything at all. If the Tolkien Estate had had the rights to The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit, there wouldn't have been any Middle Earth RPG ever.
Flyingmice explains it quite well in his post.
Quote from: Claudius;363858Flyingmice explains it quite well in his post.
Thanks, Claudius! :D
I should emphasize this more, perhaps, because I've explained this on several different fora, and some folks still didn't get it:
If Tolkien Enterprises had it's way, there would never have been nor would there ever be a LotR movie, or game, or toy, or anything but the books. Tolkien Enterprises wants the rights back to stop all LotR merchandise everywhere, for every type of merchandise, for all time. It is not interested in merely licensing the property to someone else. -clash
Quote from: flyingmice;363863Thanks, Claudius! :D
I should emphasize this more, perhaps, because I've explained this on several different fora, and some folks still didn't get it:
If Tolkien Enterprises had it's way, there would never have been nor would there ever be a LotR movie, or game, or toy, or anything but the books. Tolkien Enterprises wants the rights back to stop all LotR merchandise everywhere, for every type of merchandise, for all time. It is not interested in merely licensing the property to someone else.
-clash
That is interesting. I wasn't aware that there was a split in the License ownership. Any one know why Christopher Tolkein and the estate are so anti merchantising? Although this might explain why we keep getting bunches of tolkeins notes wrapped in book form.
Also what can you use from the appendicies?
My LotR is from the 50s and has a huge set of appendices about half the RotK volume is appendix. Does that all count or is there a specific volume. I have a LotR all in one paperback that has scant appendices.
Quote from: jibbajibba;363875My LotR is from the 50s and has a huge set of appendices about half the RotK volume is appendix. Does that all count or is there a specific volume. I have a LotR all in one paperback that has scant appendices.
Interesting. I've never seen an edition of LotR that
didn't include all the appendices. The appendices do, indeed, take up much of Return of the King in the usual three-volume split of the book. In my thirty-some-odd years of reading and re-reading LotR (probably close to 20 times, now), that's how it's always been. Where was this one-volume version with scant appendices published?
The question about the appendices is one that interests me. Are the appendices off-limits? I always wondered why people were asking about the use of the Silmarillion, when it seemed like a good end-run would be to use the LotR appendices. I guess that hole was plugged, right?
Quote from: flyingmice;363863Thanks, Claudius! :D
I should emphasize this more, perhaps, because I've explained this on several different fora, and some folks still didn't get it:
If Tolkien Enterprises had it's way, there would never have been nor would there ever be a LotR movie, or game, or toy, or anything but the books. Tolkien Enterprises wants the rights back to stop all LotR merchandise everywhere, for every type of merchandise, for all time. It is not interested in merely licensing the property to someone else.
-clash
I think you mean the Tolkien Estate (http://www.tolkienestate.com/) (the literary entity made up primarily of Tolkien's heirs).
Tolkien Enterprises (http://www.tolkien-ent.com/index.html) (the commercial entity founded by Saul Zaentz) is happy to revel in Happy Meals, Gandalf shampoo, action figures, and all manner of merchandising.
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;363921Are the appendices off-limits? I always wondered why people were asking about the use of the Silmarillion, when it seemed like a good end-run would be to use the LotR appendices. I guess that hole was plugged, right?
Some portions of the appendices are off limits, primarily the materials outside the scope of the events depicted in
The Hobbit and
The Lord of the Rings.
Quote from: jdurall;363932I think you mean the Tolkien Estate (http://www.tolkienestate.com/) (the literary entity made up primarily of Tolkien's heirs).
Tolkien Enterprises (http://www.tolkien-ent.com/index.html) (the commercial entity founded by Saul Zaentz) is happy to revel in Happy Meals, Gandalf shampoo, action figures, and all manner of merchandising.
Damn! yes! Apologies! I meant the Tolkien Estate.
-clash
Quote from: jibbajibba;363875That is interesting. I wasn't aware that there was a split in the License ownership. Any one know why Christopher Tolkein and the estate are so anti merchantising? Although this might explain why we keep getting bunches of tolkeins notes wrapped in book form.
Also what can you use from the appendicies?
My LotR is from the 50s and has a huge set of appendices about half the RotK volume is appendix. Does that all count or is there a specific volume. I have a LotR all in one paperback that has scant appendices.
I guess that, like Mrs Harry Potter, they probably think that anyone else engaging in the universe of middle earth through anything other than Tolkien's actual work will pervert it or otherwise dilute it. it's sad that they can't see the value of storytelling in other forms, but i suppose that's their right.
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;363921Interesting. I've never seen an edition of LotR that didn't include all the appendices. The appendices do, indeed, take up much of Return of the King in the usual three-volume split of the book. In my thirty-some-odd years of reading and re-reading LotR (probably close to 20 times, now), that's how it's always been. Where was this one-volume version with scant appendices published?
The question about the appendices is one that interests me. Are the appendices off-limits? I always wondered why people were asking about the use of the Silmarillion, when it seemed like a good end-run would be to use the LotR appendices. I guess that hole was plugged, right?
No idea haven't got it handy some time in the 80s I guess bit fat one volume paperback paper is thin like in a bible.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;363974I guess that, like Mrs Harry Potter, they probably think that anyone else engaging in the universe of middle earth through anything other than Tolkien's actual work will pervert it or otherwise dilute it. it's sad that they can't see the value of storytelling in other forms, but i suppose that's their right.
Yeah but JK Rowling wrote the book and has merchantised the crap out of it so needs no more income from it what with being the wealiest author in the world and all.
Tolkein had already sold the rights to his main work in his lifetime so getting precious about the shoe boxes filled with the full transscript of the Lays of Lorien or whatever is surely somewhat moot.
Quote from: jibbajibba;363875That is interesting. I wasn't aware that there was a split in the License ownership. Any one know why Christopher Tolkein and the estate are so anti merchantising? Although this might explain why we keep getting bunches of tolkeins notes wrapped in book form.
Christopher Tolkien sees himself as the guardian of his father's legacy - with some justification seeing as he was raised on his father's stories and knows them probably better than anybody else. I think he probably thinks of merchandising as a vulgarisation of Middle Earth. I tend to agree. I do however rather like MERP, so I'm a bit conflicted.
Quote from: noisms;363985Christopher Tolkien sees himself as the guardian of his father's legacy - with some justification seeing as he was raised on his father's stories and knows them probably better than anybody else. I think he probably thinks of merchandising as a vulgarisation of Middle Earth. I tend to agree. I do however rather like MERP, so I'm a bit conflicted.
Sadly, if Christopher Tolkien can't see the difference between a Lotr Happy Meal and a Middle Earth rpg or boardgame then he either doesn't understand games or doesn't want to.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;363987Sadly, if Christopher Tolkien can't see the difference between a Lotr Happy Meal and a Middle Earth rpg or boardgame then he either doesn't understand games or doesn't want to.
In fairness he might not be against people roleplaying in Middle Earth, just against people publishing a game set in Middle Earth with the inevitable changes to his father's vision that would entail.
I mean, look at MERP. It does a decent job with the source material but also takes a hatchet to it at times.
Apparently the Hobbit movies (2) will feature material from the Silmarillion to do with events between the Hobbit and LotR and that C. Tolkien has dropped legal objections after a lawsuit for unpaid royalties from New Line Cinema was settled out of court.
Even more apparently Viggo mortensen gets to be Aragorn again (presumably in film 2).
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;363991Apparently the Hobbit movies (2) will feature material from the Silmarillion to do with events between the Hobbit and LotR and that C. Tolkien has dropped legal objections after a lawsuit for unpaid royalties from New Line Cinema was settled out of court.
Even more apparently Viggo mortensen gets to be Aragorn again (presumably in film 2).
Yuk.
The Hobbit is so easy to film the way it is. I don't know why they have to dick around with it and make it into two films.
Oh wait, yes I do. LOADSA MONEY.
Quote from: jibbajibba;363875Any one know why Christopher Tolkein and the estate are so anti merchantising?
I don't think that he is
completely anti-merchandising.
One can argue that the
Tolkien calendars (that frequently portrayed scenes from the Silmarillion) and Karen Wynn Fonstad's wonderful
Middle-earth atlas (which included Silmarillion geography and history) are
de facto merchandising.
I'm not convinced that a LoTR RPG "needs" to have Silmarillion stuff in it. The vast majority of tolkien fans (the ones who got into LoTR through the movies) have never actually read the Silmarillion, only the more dedicated Tolkien-nerds have.
RPGPundit
Call me a pessimist, but i expect a similar game to WFRP 3e.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;363991Apparently the Hobbit movies (2) will feature material from the Silmarillion to do with events between the Hobbit and LotR and that C. Tolkien has dropped legal objections after a lawsuit for unpaid royalties from New Line Cinema was settled out of court.
Even more apparently Viggo mortensen gets to be Aragorn again (presumably in film 2).
I read an interview with Del Toro that said they are going to include the Coucil meeting at Rivendel. they felt it tied the films togehter well (ie the Hobbit and LOTR) gave some exposition about why gandalf leaves the group and built the film up to 2 movie length. The issue they had was that the hobbit comes out as too long for a single film but too short for 2 movies so the council and I think the flight/pursuit of gollum lets them provide some continuity, bring back some old characters like Aragorn, and bulks it out to 2 films.
Unlike most gamey geeks I love the three Lotr movies. I have some exceptions, the Deadmen of Dunharrow are too easy and the supposed loss of Aragoron to give some emotional tension to The Two Towers but the rest of it I agree with and Arwen is a far stronger character and that makes that key romance work so much better.
But back to the RPG. Its not an easy one. You don;t need to knwo the Simlarilion to get the LotR but the LotR itself is a hard setting to game because of the huge imbalances in power. If only Maiar or ring wielders can cast spells, if elves are as superior as they are in the books then the only balancing effect is character and that is a hard one for designers to leave alone.
Quote from: One Horse Town;364151Call me a pessimist, but i expect a similar game to WFRP 3e.
God, no. I hope not.
Quote from: Benoist;364177God, no. I hope not.
I concur my friend.
SO. I just read on the big purple that a guy from Cubicle 7 confirmed that the One Ring RPG would be a boxed set.
Interesting how boxes are making a comeback. :)
Quote from: Benoist;365104SO. I just read on the big purple that a guy from Cubicle 7 confirmed that the One Ring RPG would be a boxed set.
Interesting how boxes are making a comeback. :)
"Well, you go there to buy the books, here to buy some miniatures, over there to buy some dice...Oh, and you might want to get a wipeable map..."
I'm curiously opposed to LoTR RPGs. Not because of any artistic snobbery, but because there really isn't much room in the tightly-woven narrative to make changes - And that doesn't make for a good RPG.
What I would argue for instead, is a Tolkien-esque RPG - Put it in a "Middle Earth" with the serial numbers filed off and the narrative loosened a bunch. The same feel, but without the question of "Hewing to plot, or taking a hatchet to it".
Quote from: Benoist;364177God, no. I hope not.
Well, the guy behind it is behind the LotR boardgame.
I have no idea on the sales numbers for Wfrp3, but i cannot believe that a small press company like Cubicle could stand to put out something like that. Can even ffg afford to take a loss on wfrp3? I'd love to know the sales figures for a game like that. I guess the licenses are at least comparable in popularity.