TheRPGSite

From another forum, we have Mike Breault (TSR employee in the second half of the 80s), telling stories about Lorraine Williams, the she-cow that was responsible more than any other single person for the decline of TSR and with it of the entire gaming hobby:

QuoteOK, so here goes. I'm going to add new tidbits as I have time and think of them, but here are a few to start. Keep in mind that except where I say I witnessed things or was told them by Lorraine, these are essentially rumors (but fun nonetheless).

1) My very first personal encounter with Lorraine was a doosy. I was walking toward the TSR breakroom to get some snacks. One of the doors to the executive area opened into the narrow hallway that led to the snack room. As I was walking past, the door flew open as Lorraine came barging through it. The door whacked me hard enough to knock me off my feet and into the wall across the hallway. (Lorraine was a very large woman, 6 feet tall and probably 300+ pounds, whereas I was about 145 pounds.) She apologized profusely and helped me up and I just glared at her, really pissed off. A week or so later she was in charge of TSR and I avoided execuland for quite a while.

2) Lorraine's money (according to rumor, which she confirmed) was based on a trust fund she and her brother, Flint Dille, were given at birth. They each received what I was told was $7M. Lorraine eventually used hers to buy TSR while her dumbass brother (more on him later) used his to buy his way into the entertainment industry, as far as I could tell.

This trust fund came from the family fortune, which was based on the Buck Rogers license. Lorraine told anyone who would listen that her grandfather created Buck Rogers. This was not true. He apparently obtained the rights to the license at some point from the original creators and made a fortune off it. I once called Lorraine on this, asking her if it was true that her grandfather created Buck Rogers. She said yes. I replied that it was strange then that I had a Buck Rogers book from the 1920s (or so) given to me by my grandfather and that book had two men's names listed but neither of them was Dille (the family name). She looked at me for about 5 seconds and then said that she'd really like to see that book. I said that I'd try to find it and then never did. Not sure what she wanted to do to the book and didn't want to find out. I do indeed have that book and it does indeed not list Dille anywhere in it.

Her younger brother Flint was the licensor for the BR license and all proceeds went into the "Dille Family Trust," from which Lorraine and Flint benefited. Thus soon after she took over, we were told we'd be having a Buck Rogers line of products. BR products (a board game and an RPG and associated products) were put on the schedule for the coming year. No one wanted to work on them. Finally Jeff Grubb agreed to be the designer and I think Warren Spector the editor. In the opinions of everyone I heard, this was solely a means of sucking money out of TSR and into Dille pockets. I can't imagine the BR line ever made any money, but I think the board game was pretty cool, despite everything Flint cuold do.

Worse than having to do games based on a license that had an execrable TV show in the 70s was having to deal with Flint. He'd periodically slither in to TSR and proceed to drive everyone associated with the BR line crazy. He used to give such stupid pronouncements that the artists took a cartoon image of Orcus ordering about cowering minions and photocopied it dozens of times and put a word bubble with Flint's dictates in each one. Until they were torn down by parties unknown, we'd all chuckle at images of Orcus saying things like "Make the spaceships rounder but more square!"

3) Flint: I don't know if Lorraine's brother ever had a real job in his life. I believe he used his trust fund money to buy his way into the entertainment industry. His first credits, if I can term them such, were as some type of producer on Garbage Pail Kids, if you remember that esteemed show. He kept cropping up in various positions, sometimes in LA, sometimes in game-related things. I've seen him lounging around at GenCon a number of times but have no idea what he's ever done worth speaking of.

4) Lorraine did away with performance reviews once she was in charge of TSR. The rumor was that she hated them because she got a bad one at some point and it apparently traumatized her.

5) Lorraine's husband (no recall of his name) was supposedly a big-time soap opera producer. I heard this from someone other than Lorraine. He was said to have produced some soap opera that even I'd heard of, like the Guiding Light or General Hospital or something like that.

6) This is rather cruel but I will pass it along, considering my audience. One Christmas party, Lorraine announced she was eight months pregnant. While we all politely applauded, you could see all the stunned looks in the room; almost no one knew. Did I mention she was a large woman? Surprised

7) I did not witness this but was told it independently by two higher-ups whom I trusted. Lorraine once got pissed at something done by the head of the book department at TSR. She called the dept head into a meeting of all the execs, called her a "stupid, useless cow," and fired her on the spot.

Will add more as I have time and think of them.

And later, in response to the rumour that Williams forbade gaming, even for playtesting purposes, at TSR:

QuoteThat being said, here's something horrible to admit: The vast majority of modules and systems in hardback books were not playtested, to the very best of my knowledge. The designer would make them up, perhaps playtest them on his own or informally call a buddy or co-worker over to review or briefly playtest them, but as a general rule I saw very little playtesting occur. This is why I always refer to people in my position as editor/developers, because we were basically the only check against total weirdness. I remember working my way through one of Tracy Hickman's modules, intended for mid-level characters, and coming upon a room that had something like 6 or 8 liches in it. It was fricking LichCon11 in there and would have totally fried any party that kicked in that door. I knocked it down to a single lich but every so often think of the high-pitched screaming that would have resulted all over the land had I failed to see that.

Now, I know this just confirms something most people here have suspected or known all along, but I don't believe it's as bad as it could have been. There was a group of smart, experienced designers there and we had smart, experienced editors and I think/hope we caught a lot of the oddness that might have occurred. But I saw enough weird shit cross my desk that I know in my heart of hearts that very little playtesting went on before those pages reached me. And I know that virtually no playtesting went on after they hit editors' desks. There was just no time at that point.

As I have said a few times, I hope people can separate the company and the situation from the people who worked there. Everyone in the design department was doing his or her best to put out the best possible product. No one there was just shoveling shit out the door. We struggled pretty mightily to make the work we did as good as we could, under the conditions. At levels above us there might have been a shovelware mentality, but everyone in the design department cared deeply about what we were doing. It wasn't to the liking of most people here, but that doesn't make it innately bad work.

So, my answer is that I don't recall Lorraine forbidding us from playing games (and I think I'd remember that, to be honest), but much of what left our doors received little to no playtesting that I was aware of, due to time and resource factors.

Interesting stuff!

RPGPundit

Meh, I've had worse bosses than that.  I did have fun playing the Buck Rodgers computer game though.

And 2nd edition modules weren't playtested?  Why am I not surprised?  Oh yeah, because most of them were horrible and/or broken.

If you ever get a chance to sit own with Ed Greenwood and chat he has some great Lorraine stories.

I remember a show that was about D&D's anniversary (The 20th I think) and they interviewed Lorraine Williams and Gary Gygax (separately of course). I remember thinking, "Damn, I wish Gary was still the one holding the wheel."

Lorraine just seemed completely clueless when you compared their answers.

Source of the OP: From the Knights & Knaves Alehouse (http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=5996).

"Zotster" being Mike Breault.

Interestingly Flint Dille is on IMDB and has apparently been quite busy and sucessful, if not exactly a superstar.

From his 'Trivia' section:

Quote from: IMDBTrivia
Dille's grandfather, John F. Dille, was the head of the National Newspaper Syndicate. It was the elder Dille that commissioned Philip Nowlan to turn his novel "Armageddon 2419" into the comic strip "Buck Rogers in the 25th Century." The younger Dille later published and co-wrote a 1990's Buck Rogers graphic novel.

And according to Lorraine Williams Wikipedia entry, Flint was involved with Gygax and TSR before Lorraine.

Interesting stuff, though most of this was all going down before/just as I started plyaing.

I'm sure she was a bad person and all, but it's amazing the terrible luck that Gary Gygax had: every single one of the many, many people he had conflicts with was completely to blame.

Quote from: Spike;318083Interestingly Flint Dille is on IMDB and has apparently been quite busy and sucessful, if not exactly a superstar. .

He was responsible for a whole bunch of 80's cartoons that people reading this will remember nostalgicly, including writing the Trasformers movie. Whether it's continued sucess as a franchise where the likes of he-man and thundercats have largely faded away is because, or despite the fact that it killed off and replaced nearly the entire cast, (and then continued to do so regularly in later series) I'm not sure, but it was certainly a rather distinctive move to make.

Loads of such horror stories about TSR under Lorraine were circulating on WWIVnet at the time.

Well.... yes.

He also did Fivel goes West and was a writer on Chronicles of Riddick: Escape from Butcher's Bay... which by the way is still the high water mark for a first person game for me in a great many ways (though Splinter Cell.... whew... its neck and neck man... couldn't even TRY to beat Hitman after playing Splinter Cell... but I digress...)

Point is: For all he is depicted in the OP as a wastrel dilletente (SP? fucking frenchy words with their frency spellings...) who accomplished nothing of note, he apparently is a better success than most of us, for good or ill.

Yes, I do think that it was not just coincidence that Gygax ended up being screwed by all these awful people. It is not to minimize their blame, but its clear that Gygax also had awful judgment in some areas.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;318096Yes, I do think that it was not just coincidence that Gygax ended up being screwed by all these awful people. It is not to minimize their blame, but its clear that Gygax also had awful judgment in some areas.

RPGPundit

Now that they are both sadly gone, we demand to know the truth about the Gygax/Arneson settlement!

Why not just go to K&KA and talk about it there?? C'mon you guys....it's trainwreck time, better get your seats early!

I give 2E a lot of slack precisely because of the management at the time.

Quote from: Age of Fable;318084it's amazing the terrible luck that Gary Gygax had: every single one of the many, many people he had conflicts with was completely to blame.

LOL!!!   It's amazing what damage ego battles will do.

Also, I'd hate to be a woman, who wasn't either sexy or a gamer or a gamer's wife, trying to run TSR in the 80s.

I don't think a Non-gamer had any business running TSR, woman or otherwise. Lorraine Williams wasn't a bad president because she was a woman, she was a bad CEO for precisely two reasons: she was incompetent, and she was a non-gamer, and those two were related, really.

RPGPundit

Way back when Dragon had staff profiles they had an interview with a business type guy and somehow it radiated right through that he didn't really like gaming.  It was more than the "I don't game so I can keep the experience fresh comment," he just radiated disdain for the hobby psychically I guess.

As I realized that the people running the company had no respect for their customer base I started looking at what was coming out more closely and began to realize that TSR didn't deserve it's position in the industry.  Then second edition came out and totally screwed up so many things that I find it hard to believe the authors and designers had ever played D&D.

I think I've hated D&D ever since.

Quote from: David Johansen;318439Way back when Dragon had staff profiles they had an interview with a business type guy and somehow it radiated right through that he didn't really like gaming.  It was more than the "I don't game so I can keep the experience fresh comment," he just radiated disdain for the hobby psychically I guess.

As I realized that the people running the company had no respect for their customer base I started looking at what was coming out more closely and began to realize that TSR didn't deserve it's position in the industry.  Then second edition came out and totally screwed up so many things that I find it hard to believe the authors and designers had ever played D&D.

I think I've hated D&D ever since.

The satirical "Castle Greyhawk" module was what finally confirmed to me that TSR largely didn't give a damn about their customers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Greyhawk_(module)

The last TSR product I ever bought new, was the 1E AD&D Unearthed Arcana.

Stories like this are why I refuse to accept orders uncritically when working, and I reserve the right to fire erstwhile superiors--literally, if necessary, by any means required--should they decide to fuck things up and take their jobs.

Some interesting insights, but I'm not sure why the "oh yeah, she was really fat too!" comments were needed.

Quote from: Fifth Element;318573Some interesting insights, but I'm not sure why the "oh yeah, she was really fat too!" comments were needed.

It's not at the level (yet), where commenting on "fat" has been branded as something similar to being a racist, sexist, anti-semite, etc ...

Quote from: ggroy;318577It's not at the level (yet), where commenting on "fat" has been branded as something similar to being a racist, sexist, anti-semite, etc ...

You can't stop being a jew or black or white or gay, all you have to do to stop being fat is to put down the fucking cheese burger. So there really is no comparison to sexism or racism.

Quote from: RockViper;318584You can't stop being a jew or black or white or gay.

Convert to Christianity

Get a job

Get a tan

Stop sucking dick

See how easy it is to change?  ;)

Quote from: mhensley;318591Convert to Christianity

Get a job

Get a tan

Stop sucking dick

See how easy it is to change?  ;)

 :rimshot:

A bozosecond is the smallest unit of time. It's defined as the time between someone posting a comment advocating being slightly fair to someone, and the first accusation of political correctness.

Quote from: RockViper;318584You can't stop being a jew or black or white or gay, all you have to do to stop being fat is to put down the fucking cheese burger. So there really is no comparison to sexism or racism.

What does the woman's weight have to do with how she ran the company? That was my only point. Just makes the post seem mean-spirited. Buddy even acknowledges that one of the comments is cruel.

There's ample evidence she fucked up TSR. We don't need to add irrelevant personal insults to that.

Quote from: Fifth Element;318601What does the woman's weight have to do with how she ran the company? That was my only point. Just makes the post seem mean-spirited. Buddy even acknowledges that one of the comments is cruel.

There's ample evidence she fucked up TSR. We don't need to add irrelevant personal insults to that.

Sure we do, you apparently don't know how the internet hate machine works.

If you piss off an entire generation (two if you count the 1e crowd) of gamers you should expect some unnecessary nastiness.

I agree with Fifth Element on this one.  Ms. Williams may be an ugly, stupid, fat, snobbish bitch but only the stupid and snobbish parts are relevant.

Quote from: jrients;318608I agree with Fifth Element on this one.  Ms. Williams may be an ugly, stupid, fat, snobbish bitch but only the stupid and snobbish parts are relevant.

Precisely. Relevant to this discussion, at any rate.

Quote from: RockViper;318607Sure we do, you apparently don't know how the internet hate machine works.

I do know. I have publicly admitted to enjoying 4E. I have seen the hate.

Quote from: jrients;318608I agree with Fifth Element on this one.  Ms. Williams may be an ugly, stupid, fat, snobbish bitch but only the stupid and snobbish parts are relevant.

I agree.

I dated her and she was charming. Those evil games designers wouldn't give her a break and made totally unreasonable demands. All want, want, want with their 'need quality artwork' and 'more time to make decent modules' nonsense. What were they thinking?

Quote from: Age of Fable;318599A bozosecond is the smallest unit of time. It's defined as the time between someone posting a comment advocating being slightly fair to someone, and the first accusation of political correctness.

Yea, verily.

Quote from: Age of Fable;318599A bozosecond is the smallest unit of time. It's defined as the time between someone posting a comment advocating being slightly fair to someone, and the first accusation of political correctness.

You are wrong Sir.

Recent advances in the fields of web quantum mechanics have now proven there is yet a smaller unit of time.

It's called the assholsec and its defined as the time between someone posting any comment whatsoever that is not 100% neutral, and the first accusation of non-political correctness...usualy desguised as a "that wasn't really necessary" pseudo-inane comment.

The research done so far seems to indicate the difference in lenght between one assholsec and a bozosecond is in the order of several degrees of magnitude.

Quote from: Fifth Element;318601There's ample evidence she fucked up TSR. We don't need to add irrelevant personal insults to that.

Why not? Is there a law against that these days?

Oh, but I do think there is a need to add irrelevant personal insult. It makes it clear that she wasn't just an idiot and corrupt incompetent, but also a deeply ugly human being, which I do think is directly relevant, because this is at its root a MORAL issue. She represents the putrid and rotten out to destroy the great and the good.

RPGPundit

It's getting deep in here.

Quote from: RPGPundit;318643She represents the putrid and rotten out to destroy the great and the good.

Somebody enjoys his Greek philosophy.

My biggest issue was that she was dumb.  I don't mind greedy.  Dumb pisses me off.  She was sitting atop a cash cow that could have cranked out so many more millions than she ever dreamed if only she played it smart.

Quote from: RPGPundit;318223I don't think a Non-gamer had any business running TSR, woman or otherwise. Lorraine Williams wasn't a bad president because she was a woman, she was a bad CEO for precisely two reasons: she was incompetent, and she was a non-gamer, and those two were related, really.

RPGPundit

Being a gamer doesn't make you fit to run a gaming company. The Blumes were gamers. They were also responsible for most of TSR's crushing debt and, indeed, were ultimately responsible for Williams taking over the company. TSR was probably beyond salvaging at that point in time as, IIRC, the Random House distribution deal that eventually blew up in TSR's face (and is often held out as the largest contributing factor to their downfall) was minted during the tenure of the Blumes.

Quote from: Spinachcat;318835Somebody enjoys his Greek philosophy.

My biggest issue was that she was dumb.  I don't mind greedy.  Dumb pisses me off.  She was sitting atop a cash cow that could have cranked out so many more millions than she ever dreamed if only she played it smart.

In my opinion, most real evil is born from stupidity. Or even mediocrity.

RPGPundit

Quote from: ICFTI;318843Being a gamer doesn't make you fit to run a gaming company. The Blumes were gamers. They were also responsible for most of TSR's crushing debt and, indeed, were ultimately responsible for Williams taking over the company. TSR was probably beyond salvaging at that point in time as, IIRC, the Random House distribution deal that eventually blew up in TSR's face (and is often held out as the largest contributing factor to their downfall) was minted during the tenure of the Blumes.

Knowing a lot about pipes won't make you a good Tobacco Store owner, but if you don't know about pipes, you're bound to be a bad tobacco store owner.

Its the same with RPGs.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;318847Knowing a lot about pipes won't make you a good Tobacco Store owner, but if you don't know about pipes, you're bound to be a bad tobacco store owner.

Its the same with RPGs.

RPGPundit

but it isn't true, Pundit.  Best tobacco shop I know of is run by a a guy who hates pipes. He hired a knowledgeable pipe smoker as an assistant.

Best game store I've encountered is run by a guy who thinks monopoly a good game, and doesn't understand the appeal of any of the following: tactical miniatures games, RPG's, Pogs, CCG's, abstract strategy games, Collectable dice games. His ordering clerk, however, does. And has been great at predicting what will sell, and restocking early that which does sell.

As to Lorraine's weight: it's relevant because morbidly obese persons generally have self-image issues and/or self-control issues. It is a minor issue, but it goes to her motivations as person in charge. It would tend to indicate she was seeking something to feel good about herself for; whether by belittling others (as the WWIVnet subs tended to indicate), or by succeeding and getting some acclaim (which she failed to do by all accounts).

Quote from: aramis;318849but it isn't true, Pundit.  Best tobacco shop I know of is run by a a guy who hates pipes. He hired a knowledgeable pipe smoker as an assistant.

Best game store I've encountered is run by a guy who thinks monopoly a good game, and doesn't understand the appeal of any of the following: tactical miniatures games, RPG's, Pogs, CCG's, abstract strategy games, Collectable dice games. His ordering clerk, however, does. And has been great at predicting what will sell, and restocking early that which does sell.

I was going to type a long, involved, reply about how most successful big business owners hire other people to manage their businesses, but you pretty much covered it. Being the head of a multi-million dollar corporation isn't quite like running a newspaper stand.

Quote from: RPGPundit;318643Oh, but I do think there is a need to add irrelevant personal insult. It makes it clear that she wasn't just an idiot and corrupt incompetent, but also a deeply ugly human being, which I do think is directly relevant, because this is at its root a MORAL issue. She represents the putrid and rotten out to destroy the great and the good.

And if she were thin that wouldn't be the case? I don't get how her weight has any bearing on her morals.

Quote from: Edsan;318641Why not? Is there a law against that these days?

There has to be a law against something for me to suggest it's a bad idea?

Quote from: Edsan;318641...usualy desguised as a "that wasn't really necessary" pseudo-inane comment.

I didn't "desguise" my comment at all. I just think that the woman's weight has no bearing on how she fucked up TSR, and she certainly fucked up TSR. But "she was really fat, too!" amounts to childish name-calling. There are plenty of fat angels and skinny bastards. Does anyone think that if she weighed 98 pounds it would have made her not fuck up TSR?

I don't care for PC. I also don't care for irrelevance.

Gygax was fat.  And so was Arneson.  Just saying...

Goddam fat people!

[Looks in mirror]

GAAAHHH!!!

Quote from: Danger;318883Goddam fat people!

[Looks in mirror]

GAAAHHH!!!

You mean that's not YOU in your avatar pic?

Damn lying internets!

Quote from: mhensley;318882Gygax was fat.  And so was Arneson.  Just saying...

Yes, but she was ugly-fat. They were jolly-fat.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;318924Yes, but she was ugly-fat. They were jolly-fat.

RPGPundit

:rotfl:

Quote from: aramis;318849As to Lorraine's weight: it's relevant because morbidly obese persons generally have self-image issues and/or self-control issues. It is a minor issue, but it goes to her motivations as person in charge. It would tend to indicate she was seeking something to feel good about herself for; whether by belittling others (as the WWIVnet subs tended to indicate), or by succeeding and getting some acclaim (which she failed to do by all accounts).

I sideline as an expert witness. Most prospective clients want not only a resume, but also a recent photo, because studies have shown that juries do not take obese people seriously.

Any person carrying that kind of disproportionate weight is visibly exercising bad judgement. The strain on your CV system, joints (especially in women facing the calcium-loss age groups), almost certainty of diabetic complications...you have to ask yourself if they can't control their own health to such a degree, how viable are their judgements in other areas.

Not to mention the issues aramis raised.

This is a tangent, but arises from this thread and the one about Zeb Cook at Knights and Knaves....

Who actually is Gene Wiegel? Just out of curiosity. A designer?

Quote from: noisms;319088This is a tangent, but arises from this thread and the one about Zeb Cook at Knights and Knaves....

Who actually is Gene Wiegel? Just out of curiosity. A designer?

Simply a forum poster with a big ego, it seems...

This was a fun thread when it was about neat old stories from crazy TSR.

Not so much when it's about whether or not it's polite to call fat people fat.

I'm fat.  I didn't used to be, but a few years spent in desk jobs and the writer's office (ie, broke, unemployed, staring at computer) instead of the kitchen, have left me a bit on the tubbo side.  I deserve it, I was lazy, I'm taking my licks for it.

So from the position of authority that comes from myself being a fat person, go ahead, call the bitch fat if it makes you feel better.  You have my personal approval.  

Now more fun stories!  Greenwood sex romps!  Williams ignorant rants!  Some guy writing a module that features a level 1000 dragon and not thinking that would be a bad idea!

Quote from: J Arcane;319094This was a fun thread when it was about neat old stories from crazy TSR.

Not so much when it's about whether or not it's polite to call fat people fat.

I'm fat.  I didn't used to be, but a few years spent in desk jobs and the writer's office (ie, broke, unemployed, staring at computer) instead of the kitchen, have left me a bit on the tubbo side.  I deserve it, I was lazy, I'm taking my licks for it.

So from the position of authority that comes from myself being a fat person, go ahead, call the bitch fat if it makes you feel better.  You have my personal approval.  

Now more fun stories!  Greenwood sex romps!  Williams ignorant rants!  Some guy writing a module that features a level 1000 dragon and not thinking that would be a bad idea!

What he said.

I don't care if she's fat or not. What we want is more gore!

Quote from: noisms;319088This is a tangent, but arises from this thread and the one about Zeb Cook at Knights and Knaves....

Who actually is Gene Wiegel? Just out of curiosity. A designer?

Looks like some person who has developed a "cult of personality" around themselves, and who actually believes in their their own bullshit through and through.

Quote from: Age of Fable;318084I'm sure she was a bad person and all, but it's amazing the terrible luck that Gary Gygax had: every single one of the many, many people he had conflicts with was completely to blame.

Just like Kevin Siembieda.

And Steve Jackson (US).

And N Robin Crosby.

And Marc Miller.

Amazing, eh?

Quote from: J Arcane;319094Not so much when it's about whether or not it's polite to call fat people fat.

I don't care if you think it's polite or not. She's certainly never going to read this thread. But it's not relevant to how she ran the company, and the inclusion of the "she was so fat!" comments make the poster seem petty, and possibly call into question the objectivity of his other comments about the woman.

Quote from: OneTinSoldier;319068Most prospective clients want not only a resume, but also a recent photo, because studies have shown that juries do not take obese people seriously.

Quote from: OneTinSoldier;319068Any person carrying that kind of disproportionate weight is visibly exercising bad judgement.

Interesting point, but it begs the question: do people not take obese people seriously because they think "they're not exercising good judgment in one aspect of their life, so they probably won't in other aspects" or is it more of a knee-jerk "look at that fatty! what a joke!" type of thing?

That's what I mean about the poster's comments. One "she was so fat" comment was prefaced is being cruel, and he certainly never explained that it was relevant because it showed poor judgment etc. It seems the "look at that fatty!" explanation is more likely.

Anyway, I think the subject's been hashed out.

Summary of Breault's post.

   (1) She was fat. She was really polite. Also, she was fat. Which is amazing, because there are hardly any fat people involved in the roleplaying game hobby.

(2) She got an inheritance, and unhappy at just living off the interest wanted to do something productive with it, and bought a company. Also her brother was dumb.

(3) Her brother was dumb. But has been fairly successful in his chosen career since then, which is of course a frequent sign of being dumb. Really.

(4) She got rid of performance reviews, something universally despised by everyone outside Human Resources and executive boards looking for excuses to fire people. The bitch.

(5) Her husband was dumb. But was extremely successful in his chosen career, even more than her brother. This great success is obviously a sign of dumbness.

(6) Did I mention she was fat? Not like all those buff gamers out there.

(7) I heard a rumour she fired someone for misconduct and used rude words.

PS - she never stopped us playtesting things, but we still didn't, I won't mention why, and it's not because we were lazy and didn't care, honest, that was just the higher-ups - you know, the ones who didn't stop us playtesting things, the cunts. Of course our not playtesting things couldn't possibly have had anything to do with declining sales as time went on.

I never thought much of Lorraine Williams. But after reading that, I can't help but wonder if she was all that bad. She was fat, polite, related to dumb people, abolished performance reviews, and the writers and editors were too lazy to playtest things - this hardly seems a damning report on her vileness.

Quote from: ICFTIBeing a gamer doesn't make you fit to run a gaming company. The Blumes were gamers. They were also responsible for most of TSR's crushing debt and, indeed, were ultimately responsible for Williams taking over the company.

Yes but were they fat? Unlike all the buff gamers out there, I mean.

Because if they were fat then the crushing debt was obviously entirely their fault. If not, then the crushing debt is irrelevant. Because crushing debt absolutely never has anything to do with the subsequent collapse of companies. It's just those stupid polite fat bitches taking them over that does it. Not the debt. Could never be the debt, nuh-uh.

And of course it couldn't be the crappy writers, who despite being too lazy to playtest anything were all brilliant and lovely people, Breault tells us. Unlike that fat bitch.

Quote from: AramisAs to Lorraine's weight: it's relevant because morbidly obese persons generally have self-image issues and/or self-control issues.

Mike Breault described himself at the time as 145lbs. Underweight geeks whose hobby involves eating junk food with other geeks and pretending to be elven princesses every Friday night instead of going out with girls generally have self-image issues and/or self-control issues.
(http://www.mobygames.com/images/portraits/small/1069948141-00.jpg)
Also, he's balding. Balding men generally have self-image issues.

Wow, see how easy it is to bring irrelevant bullshit into a discussion?

Quote from: mhenselyGygax was fat. And so was Arneson. Just saying...

What? Ridiculous! Only women can be fat, men just have a bit of condition on them.

Look, she was fat, and she was a chick. So obviously she was completely to blame for everything bad that ever happened to TSR. Even the stuff she never told anyone to do, like not playtesting the modules.

Plus, Gygax was never wrong, and neither was Arneson. Or Tim Kask, or Mentzer, or... What's that? Some of those guys disagreed with each-other and had a falling out and blame each-other for it? There is no contradiction, there - quick, look - a fat chick!

(http://i.zdnet.com/blogs/nelson-muntz.gif)

Since it is apparent that people's judgment can be questioned simply on the basis of appearance, I'm afraid this conversation can't continue until every participant changes their avatar to a genuine recent photo of themselves. After all, you might be fat, and then we'd know everything you said was stupid.

I'm game, how about you fat fuckers?

Quote from: jrients;318608I agree with Fifth Element on this one.  Ms. Williams may be an ugly, stupid, fat, snobbish bitch but only the stupid and snobbish parts are relevant.

Don't forget the bitch part, Jeff.  Totally agree on the ugly and fat, though.

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm a fat ass myself.

Quote from: mhensley;318591

Quote from: RockViperYou can't stop being a jew or black or white or gay.

Convert to Christianity

...

See how easy it is to change?  ;)

Try telling that to all those German jews who previously converted to Christianity or who were atheists, but whom were still considered "jews" under the 1935 Nuremberg race laws.

http://www.ushmm.org/outreach/nlaw.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws

ggroy, don't take it there. We have enough stupid in this thread as it is.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;319143(4) She got rid of performance reviews, something universally despised by everyone outside Human Resources and executive boards looking for excuses to fire people. The bitch.

I thought the same thing. An employee complaining that performance reviews were abolished? That seems wrong, somehow. The vast majority of performance reviews are badly designed, don't do what they're designed to do, and are typically ignored anyway. They're a waste of time done so that management feels like they're managing.

One of the stated purposes of performance reviews is to see how much of a payrise people deserve, if any. At my woman's company, they've instituted a pay freeze because of the global financial fuckup (of course they still have money to send managers to the Formula 1 races). Yet they're still having performance reviews. My woman suggested that they abolish the reviews this year, and take the wage money that would have been spent on the whole process and spread it evenly among the employees. Strangely, this was not taken up by management.

She also had the experience before all this of one year being invited to set goals. She set one goal as having 100% of work done by deadline. She achieved that goal. On the review, she got 4/5 for that goal.
"But I achieved the goal, isn't that 5/5?"
"No, 4/5 is for exceeding your goal."
"I can't do more than 100% of my work before deadline."
"You should set lower goals this year."

Performance reviews encouraging excellence!

No performance reviews, oy vey. Who would want to work in such a company? How awful, how stressful. Only fat people hate performance reviews.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;319147ggroy, don't take it there. We have enough stupid in this thread as it is.

I know it is stupid, but I take great offense to this.  My grandmother was from a German family who converted to Christianity decades before the 1930's, but whom were still considered "jews" under the Nuremberg race laws.  She managed to escape to Jaffa/Tel-Aviv in British Palestine, but the rest of the family didn't.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;319150Performance reviews encouraging excellence!

I had one performance review about three years ago, before I stopped working for other people entirely.

They broke down "competencies" into 5 or 6 groups, and then broke those groups down into 10+ specific competencies each. The employees rate themselves on a scale of 1 (poor) to 6 (excellent) on each one, management does the same, and the results are compared.

I gave myself precisely one 6, in an area I had been repeatedly told I was the best they had ever had in that area. Management gave me a 4, of two reasons (which they explained to me):

1. They never (never) gave anyone a 6.

2. They thought if they gave me a 5, I would become overconfident in that area.

So yeah, that really motivated me. Motivated me to become self-employed.

Quote from: ggroyI know it is stupid, but I take great offense to this. My grandmother was from a German family who converted to Christianity decades before the 1930's, but whom were still considered "jews" under the Nuremberg race laws. She managed to escape to Jaffa/Tel-Aviv in British Palestine, but the rest of the family didn't.

And I am Jewish, with many parts of the family tree lopped off early, and had someone close to me killed by a suicide bomber in Israel.

So what, it's not relevant to the thread, sorry but no-one cares. It's the Nazi Tangent we don't want to take any thread down, it was bad enough when that fuckwit Scandanavian showed up to talk about his non-rpg We All Had Names.

This thread is about Lorraine Williams, and everyone's desperate attempt to blame her for TSR having huge debts before she went there, failing to playtest things, and threatening to sue fans when the internet started - all things which actually did contribute to its subsequent collapse.

Get into debt, get lazy workers too busy backstabbing each-other to work much, and adopt a circle the wagons mentality - all classic signs of a dying company.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;319158And I am Jewish, with many parts of the family tree lopped off early, and had someone close to me killed by a suicide bomber in Israel.

So what, it's not relevant to the thread, sorry but no-one gives a shit. It's the Nazi Tangent we don't want to take any thread down, it was bad enough when that fuckwit Scandanavian showed up to talk about his non-rpg We All Had Names.

This thread is about Lorraine Williams, and everyone's desperate attempt to blame her for TSR having huge debts before she went there, failing to playtest things, and threatening to sue fans when the internet started - all things which actually did contribute to its subsequent collapse.

Get into debt, get lazy workers too busy backstabbing each-other to work much, and adopt a circle the wagons mentality - all classic signs of a dying company.

Fair enough.

EDIT:  I just came to the realization that my knee jerk rant sounded too similar to J Arcane's style of whining and complaining on this message board. :eek:  My bad.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;319143Summary of Breault's post.

   (1) She was fat. She was really polite. Also, she was fat. Which is amazing, because there are hardly any fat people involved in the roleplaying game hobby.

(2) She got an inheritance, and unhappy at just living off the interest wanted to do something productive with it, and bought a company. Also her brother was dumb.

(3) Her brother was dumb. But has been fairly successful in his chosen career since then, which is of course a frequent sign of being dumb. Really.

(4) She got rid of performance reviews, something universally despised by everyone outside Human Resources and executive boards looking for excuses to fire people. The bitch.

(5) Her husband was dumb. But was extremely successful in his chosen career, even more than her brother. This great success is obviously a sign of dumbness.

(6) Did I mention she was fat? Not like all those buff gamers out there.

(7) I heard a rumour she fired someone for misconduct and used rude words.


Since it is apparent that people's judgment can be questioned simply on the basis of appearance, I'm afraid this conversation can't continue until every participant changes their avatar to a genuine recent photo of themselves. After all, you might be fat, and then we'd know everything you said was stupid.

I'm game, how about you fat fuckers?

Jimbob, bringing the truth. I take back all the stupid shit you said before, just for this, man.

Of course, I can't change my avatar as requested as its already me... unless you want the fat dumpier version I used for a bit last year...

But I missed the bit about her husband. I thought Gygax was her husband? And SURELY no geek would call good old Gary 'Dumb'! The Horror!

Quote from: ggroy;319138Looks like some person who has developed a "cult of personality" around themselves, and who actually believes in their their own bullshit through and through.

That was my thought too, but I wanted to check just in case it turned out he was secretly the mastermind behind The Keep on the Borderlands or something...

Quote from: noisms;319088This is a tangent, but arises from this thread and the one about Zeb Cook at Knights and Knaves....

Who actually is Gene Wiegel? Just out of curiosity. A designer?

A  douchbag.

Quote from: Fifth Element;319141Interesting point, but it begs the question: do people not take obese people seriously because they think "they're not exercising good judgment in one aspect of their life, so they probably won't in other aspects" or is it more of a knee-jerk "look at that fatty! what a joke!" type of thing?

That's what I mean about the poster's comments. One "she was so fat" comment was prefaced is being cruel, and he certainly never explained that it was relevant because it showed poor judgment etc. It seems the "look at that fatty!" explanation is more likely.

Anyway, I think the subject's been hashed out.

As to the first, I haven't any factual knowledge, but my opinion is that our culture views obesity as unattractive. Social studies have esatablished that people treat strangers differently on the basis of their appearance. There are disputes as to the whys, but it is pretty well established. My favorite theroy is the 'damaged goods' approach: Americans are conditioned by pop culture that things are always shiny and new (how many TV programs have the leads driving battered cars, much less dirty cars?).

I dunno about the origional poster's use of the term. I was responding to aremis' post. I will say that IME, when someone dislikes another person, everything about the subject of their dislike becomes an issue.

Quote from: Edsan;318641Why not? Is there a law against that these days?

Nope, no law against calling someone a fatty.

Just like there's no law against calling African-Americans criminals, or Latinos lazy, or Asians sneaky.

Enjoy your free speech, asshole.

No laws (yet) against thought crimes.

Quote from: ggroy;319205No laws (yet) against thought crimes.

Nor against strawman arguments.

Quote from: OneTinSoldier;319200As to the first, I haven't any factual knowledge, but my opinion is that our culture views obesity as unattractive. Social studies have esatablished that people treat strangers differently on the basis of their appearance.

Indeed. So the fact that the poster considers her weight worth mentioning (mocking, really) indicates his perception of her may be coloured by that. Is his opinion or her worse because of her weight? Given that he mentioned it, for no apparent purpose, I'd say yes.

Quote from: The Shaman;319202Nope, no law against calling someone a fatty.

Just like there's no law against calling African-Americans criminals, or Latinos lazy, or Asians sneaky.

Enjoy your free speech, asshole.

Except last time I checked, while not all black people are criminals, not all latinos lazy and not all asians sneaky, pretty much 100% of all fat people ARE fat.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;319235Except last time I checked, while not all black people are criminals, not all latinos lazy and not all asians sneaky, pretty much 100% of all fat people ARE fat.

Yes, but fat is being used as shorthand for lazy, stupid, and venal in this instance.

So it's not about being fat. It's about finding a physical characteristic than can be used to impune someone.

Quote from: ggroy;319205No laws (yet) against thought crimes.

Hate crime laws are damn close.

Quote from: The Shaman;319202Nope, no law against calling someone a fatty.

Just like there's no law against calling African-Americans criminals, or Latinos lazy, or Asians sneaky.

Enjoy your free speech, asshole.

Actually, there are laws against the latter three... at least in many places... slander and/or hate-speech laws have been used  to sue individuals over such terms.

Quote from: RPGPundit;319235Except last time I checked, while not all black people are criminals, not all latinos lazy and not all asians sneaky, pretty much 100% of all fat people ARE fat.

RPGPundit

Well put.

And with the exception of glandular issues (about 2% of the whole), its purely a voluntary condition.

A person's appearance provides some insights into their personality. A man who tattoos 'fuck the world' on his forehead (I've met several) may be the victim of a ugly prank, but the odds are extremely good that said tattoo is an insight into his attitude.

Quote from: Fifth Element;319141Interesting point, but it begs the question: do people not take obese people seriously because they think "they're not exercising good judgment in one aspect of their life, so they probably won't in other aspects" or is it more of a knee-jerk "look at that fatty! what a joke!" type of thing?

That's what I mean about the poster's comments. One "she was so fat" comment was prefaced is being cruel, and he certainly never explained that it was relevant because it showed poor judgment etc. It seems the "look at that fatty!" explanation is more likely.

Anyway, I think the subject's been hashed out.

I'm a pretty slender guy whose had a couple of overweight female bosses *recently* (one of whom is only a couple of years older than me) and I respected them WAY more than the 48 year old male boss I had who was making the effort to work out with his son regularly...

...cause the women knew their crap and didn't so much.

What the fuck!!!! I thought I was in an RPG forum, not in fucking Tangecy!

Do talk about RPGs!!!!

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;319272I'm a pretty slender guy whose had a couple of overweight female bosses *recently* (one of whom is only a couple of years older than me) and I respected them WAY more than the 48 year old male boss I had who was making the effort to work out with his son regularly...

...cause the women knew their crap and didn't so much.

Obviously being both pretty and slender, no doubt they treated your better than other workers, whereas the male boss treated you according to your capabilities.

:D

Quote from: OneTinSoldier;319276Obviously being both pretty and slender, no doubt they treated your better than other workers, whereas the male boss treated you according to your capabilities.

:D

I said I was "pretty slender", not "pretty and slender"...not sure I've ever REALLY been accused of being pretty...=)

My male boss loved me until his bosses told me not to.

My female bosses loved me both when I was the "Golden Boy" and when I wasn't, but you're right, musta just been a physical thing...=)

Quote from: aramis;319269Actually, there are laws against the latter three... at least in many places... slander and/or hate-speech laws have been used  to sue individuals over such terms.

In the jurisdictions with which I'm familiar, hate-speech is a crime only if commited in conjunction with some other act of illegal discrimination.

You can say pretty much whatever ugly, hateful thing you want, as long as you don't do it in the context of taking away someone's lawful rights.

I think the lot of you are missing the point here. The assumption that overweight people possess a personality defect, or are less likely to be successful than people with a thin or average build, is just flat-out bigoted and wildly wrong.

In the jurisdiction I live in, the moment it starts to sound vaguely threatening, it becomes assault 1,  a Class D misdemeanor and with a hate crime enhancement, possibly jail time.

I've only heard of one guy actually getting jail time over it... but he said "the only good nigger is a dead nigger" to a black man in front of a police officer. Guy got 30 days, during which time he racked up a year for assault.

Quote from: The Shaman;319252Yes, but fat is being used as shorthand for lazy, stupid, and venal in this instance.

So it's not about being fat. It's about finding a physical characteristic than can be used to impune someone.

Okay, I'll touch this with a barge pole.

If you are fat, unless you have an excuse (glands, an accident that makes you wheelchair bound) there is a good case to be made that you are at least a little bit lazy and stupid:

Lazy because you don't do enough exercise.
Stupid because allowing yourself to become overweight is not an intelligent thing to do.

Venal, I'll grant you, is an unwarranted association.

I think most fat people (at least those with a modicum of self awareness) will agree that they have been a little bit lazy and stupid in getting to the state they're in. About three months ago I realised I was developing a bit of a beer belly and I certainly felt lazy and stupid. Then I started going to the gym four times a week.

Quote from: OneTinSoldier;319271A person's appearance provides some insights into their personality.

Let's assume that someone's being fat tells us something deeply insightful about their personality, other than that they probably like junk food and drive their car a lot more than they walk. It's absurd, but let's take it as true for the sake of argument.

In this case, both parties in the conflict - Williams and Gygax - were fat at the time. So that if through people's fatness we can gain an unflattering insight into their personality and/or business competence, it does not help Gygax's "Williams caused everything to fail, and none of the failure had anything to do with me," argument. Because he was a lard-arse too.

So it's a non-issue, except that for some reason fat-arsed and pencil-necked geeks think that they have the right to comment unfavourably on the appearance of every woman in existence.


And again: what is really the issue here?

"Who killed TSR?"

"Dunno, but it probably has something to do with:
1. crippling debts - which came before Williams
2. Lack of playtesting - which happened both with and without Williams, and
3. TSR's anti-fansite policy - which happened both with and without Williams."

Nobody wants to contend with these issues, because if we don't blame Williams, and look seriously at the fact that according to Gygax, in every conflict he ever had the other person was a crazy idiot and he was completely in the right and he never made any bad business decisions, well... we end up having to realise that in the end, Gygax was just a big fat nerd who got in over his head business-wise and should never have owned and controlled anything bigger than a local game store.

This is pretty common in game companies, and companies generally. You don't need business training to build it to a certain level, but after that you do.

The guy who could well manage a single small restaurant opens a second and a third and does alright but has some troubles, one of the places does really badly and decides his answer lies in more expansion, so he tries to make it a franchise and gets into enormous debt which can only be serviced by huge expansion and he thinks about the place that did badly, if only he'd managed it personally it'd've been okay, so he starts micromanaging which annoys his workers and stresses him out so he becomes nasty with people, which makes his best people leave and his useless people stay and... it all comes crashing down on him.

It's happened a zillion times across the world. Someone has a good idea or stumbles into a market opportunity, does well, but expands too fast and does more than they can manage, and more than they trust anyone else to manage, too. They should have just kept their corner store and been happy with it rather than get in over their head.

Most likely, old Gygax was just in out of his depth.

Or we could just blame the fat chick, because nobody's allowed to say anything bad about Gygax.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;319322Let's assume that someone's being fat tells us something deeply insightful about their personality, other than that they probably like junk food and drive their car a lot more than they walk. It's absurd, but let's take it as true for the sake of argument.

Actually, body-language studies and VICAP profiling doctrine* asserts it as being a fact. As with any psy-read, its not hard science, but statistically it is true.

* = in case you're not familar with the program, it has (over the course of thousands of cases) established a 93% accuracy ratio).

Quote from: Kyle AaronIn this case, both parties in the conflict - Williams and Gygax - were fat at the time. So that if through people's fatness we can gain an unflattering insight into their personality and/or business competence, it does not help Gygax's "Williams caused everything to fail, and none of the failure had anything to do with me," argument. Because he was a lard-arse too.

Gygax was an idiot, in business terms. He had a flash of creative glory translateing mini rules into a more personal gaming experience, and because of his timing, he started a niche hobby. And that's about the extent of his glory. He was a failure as a businessman (not unusal in the RPG industry), and was a has-been by the mid-80s.

I've never bothered to comment on the failure of TSR-I was around then, did not buy their products, and don't miss them.

As I said, even assuming that fatness is an indicator of personality (which fails to explain what happens when someone changes their physique, does their personality change too?), they were both fat. So we can't say, "given Williams' personality, it must be all her fault," without also saying "given Gygax's personality, it must be all his fault."

It can't both of them entirely responsible for the failure of TSR, so we have to look for causes other than the fat-derived personalities of those two. The fatness is a constant and common between them, we have to look at other variables.

The collapse of TSR may be unimportant to you, but it's the real issue of this thread. "ZOMFG, Gygax built TSR from nothing, and that fat bitch ruined it!" There wouldn't be this dissection of her personality if not for the issue of the collapse of TSR.

Of course, had TSR gone on to (for example) buy Wizards and later Hasbro under Williams' leadership, nerds would be saying how brilliant Gygax was to bring her in, and how really he deserves all the credit.

This is all about fat gamer geeks looking at the success of another fat gamer geek and wishing it were them. That's why we can't criticise him - because it's striking at the heart of the gamer geek fantasy of success.

There was something I read about personality types before, and I remember thinking that EGG fit in the "Inventor" category. These are people who come up with stuff, like to break down things to see how they work and fix them, like to think outside the box, come up with instant ideas and processes, lightning in a bottle etc.

These types are usually in radical opposite to the "Administrator" type which makes an organization grow, works and thinks over the long term, deals with a set of existing components to make them fit into an overall mold or program, and so on, so forth.

I too think that it wasn't EGG's thing to manage TSR once it reached a critical mass. He was in out of his depth. I don't know what he could have done, though. It went really, really fast, as far as the growth of TSR is concerned.

What you can do is realise the limits of your abilities. Machiavelli said there are two kinds of wisdom: the wisdom of knowing the right thing to do, and the wisdom of knowing the right thing when someone else tells you. The second kind is much more common than the first kind.

A good company head doesn't have to know and do everything, they just have to hire competent people and trust them. But if you think you are a genius and everyone else you've ever argued with is a talentless idiot, then you'll have trouble with that, and people will only be brought in when you're forced to bring them in, when you're in trouble. Which is like the Captain admitting he needs some help with navigation... after the ship has struck the iceberg.

You just need some realistic self-appraisal, is all. And judging by the discussions we have in "stat yourself as a character" sessions and forum threads, realistic self-appraisal is lacking amongst many gamer geeks.

"me smart, u poopyhead!"

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;319329You just need some realistic self-appraisal, is all. And judging by the discussions we have in "stat yourself as a character" sessions and forum threads, realistic self-appraisal is lacking amongst many gamer geeks.

"me smart, u poopyhead!"

Looking at the internet as a whole, isn't it, in all fairness, a challenge for most human beings, and not only gamers?

But wait a sec: was Gygax fat at the time of his ouster from TSR? I know he was fat later in life, especially after his strokes, but he wasn't really fat when I met him in 1987-88 (he was perhaps carrying around a middle-age paunch of 10 or 20 pounds, but was by no means obese) and if he was really doing as much coke as the rumor-mongers suggest that would also seem contrary to being really overweight. Plus, had he been really fat, would he still have been able to get Edy Williams (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0005557/) into his hot tub? (OTOH I guess that might depend more on how much money and blow he was throwing around than his weight...) ;)

I can't wait till I lose that last twenty pounds, so I can finally become self-disciplined, moral, and a whiz at finances.

Quote from: Benoist;319333Looking at the internet as a whole, isn't it, in all fairness, a challenge for most human beings, and not only gamers?

Certainly, realistic self-appraisal is a challenge for all. I'm sure you're aware of the famous "incompetent and unaware of it" study :) One feature of that study not talked about much is that just as the bottom quartile put themselves in the top quartile, the top quartile put themselves a bit lower than they were. The really crappy vastly overestimate themselves, and the really competent slightly underestimate themselves. It's just those in the middle who get it about right.

Of course those are averages, which don't say anything about particular individuals; some of us realise how crap or awesome or ordinary we are, and know it well. I do think realistic self-appraisal can be learned. Performance reviews and the like aren't the way to do it, of course - and they're not intended to be, they're a method of control, not assessment. Nor do I think of morphology as any better than phrenology. The size of your bum says no more about your personality than the shape of your forehead.

Quote from: noisms;319320If you are fat, unless you have an excuse (glands, an accident that makes you wheelchair bound) there is a good case to be made that you are at least a little bit lazy and stupid. . . .

I'm sorry, but this is such nonsense.

You're judging someone as lazy and stupid solely by their appearance.

There are fat CEOs of Fortune 500s. There are fat politicians. There are fat professional athletes. There are fat college professors. There are fat movie stars and recording stars and writers. (Oprah Winfrey could buy or sell any of us like we were so many pounds of hamburger.) There are even fat police officers.

There are lazy thin people. There are stupid thin people. There are lazy and stupid people of every body shape and size. There are thin people who embody every sin under the sun (and I'm thinking specifically of the sin of pride on display in this thread).

Really, this whole thread has turned reprehensibly stupid.

Quote from: The Shaman;319361There are thin people who embody every sin under the sun (and I'm thinking specifically of the sin of pride on display in this thread).

If they had bodies to be proud of, they'd have avatars displaying that.

I diagnose a mixture of lard-arses and pencil-necks.

So what we're talking about isn't the sin of pride, but the sin of envy - "that bitch got control of a game company, like I wish I could."

Quote from: The Shaman;319361I'm sorry, but this is such nonsense.

You're judging someone as lazy and stupid solely by their appearance.

There are fat CEOs of Fortune 500s. There are fat politicians. There are fat professional athletes. There are fat college professors. There are fat movie stars and recording stars and writers. (Oprah Winfrey could buy or sell any of us like we were so many pounds of hamburger.) There are even fat police officers.

There are lazy thin people. There are stupid thin people. There are lazy and stupid people of every body shape and size. There are thin people who embody every sin under the sun (and I'm thinking specifically of the sin of pride on display in this thread).

Really, this whole thread has turned reprehensibly stupid.

I said "a little bit lazy and stupid". And for goodness' sake, obesity is a sign of laziness and stupidity for the reasons I cited (which you cut out). Namely that not exercising is lazy and allowing yourself to grow fat is stupid. It has nothing to do with appearance, it's down to the fact that I know it isn't hard to be average weight: All you have to do is not to eat too much and to do a bit of exercise. Plenty of people manage it.

Being a little bit lazy and stupid isn't a crime, and it's possible to succeed in spite of those things if you have compensatory good points. It also says nothing about your worth or otherwise as a person (people can be lazy and stupid in plenty of other ways - for example right now I'm being lazy and stupid for participating in this idiotic debate when I should be working).

FWIW I could definitely stand to lose about 25 pounds and I absolutely consider it a combination of laziness and stupidity on my behalf that I haven't done so...

http://www.thekyngdoms.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=37

Gygax talks about wiliams in this interview.

Gary Gygax made some really awful business decisions, and if he'd never made those decisions, TSR would never have been in the kind of mess that allowed Williams to take over.

Williams, on the other hand, made really stupid decisions and bordered on the corrupt in her mismanagement of TSR's resources.  Her mentality of "Gamers will like what I tell them to like" (an actual quote of hers) and her (famous) utter contempt for gamers pretty much doomed the possibility of her being a good owner for TSR right from the start.

Point the third: in the 80s, Gary wasn't a very fat guy, though he was a slightly creepy guy:

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_wMEqFy3bLVQ/SGSbt2g4o4I/AAAAAAAAAtM/j9o7PmXgl6k/s320/gary_gygax_dungeons_dragons.jpg)

And finally, to repeat, Gary Gygax, when he was fat, was Jolly-fat, whereas Lorraine Williams was ugly-fat.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;319406And finally, to repeat, Gary Gygax, when he was fat, was Jolly-fat, whereas Lorraine Williams was ugly-fat.

It's like some bloggers are jolly-angry, while the Pundit is just ugly-angry.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;319365If they had bodies to be proud of, they'd have avatars displaying that.

I diagnose a mixture of lard-arses and pencil-necks.

So what we're talking about isn't the sin of pride, but the sin of envy - "that bitch got control of a game company, like I wish I could."

This forum isn't entirely unacquainted with wrath either.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;319365If they had bodies to be proud of, they'd have avatars displaying that.

Very nice. You need to cut back on the steroids, they're fueling your man-rage Mr. Aaron. Beacuse you know, angry fit people (especially males) who are overly-proud of their appearance (to the point of posting their pics as avatars on websites frequented 99.999% by males), are all on steroids. I heard it tends to shirink your privates and could lead to cardiovascular failure as well.

Quote from: Fifth Element;319443It's like some bloggers are jolly-angry, while the Pundit is just ugly-angry.

You're wrong.
There's Jolly-angry, there's ugly-angry, and there's PUNDIT-angry.

I'm the third kind.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;319365"that bitch got control of a game company, like I wish I could."

... and what a fucking bitch she was! :banghead:

Quote from: RPGPundit;319484You're wrong.
There's Jolly-angry, there's ugly-angry, and there's PUNDIT-angry.

I'm the third kind.

RPGPundit

I've never known Mr. R. Blackburn to be the 'angry' sort...

Say... anybody been able to scrounge up photos of Lorraine Dille Williams? I wasn't. But if I recall the WWIVnet rumours she was like 100#+ overweight; 250+ or so...

Quote from: Age of Fable;319446This forum isn't entirely unacquainted with wrath either.

You would say that, you fucker!

:p

Quote from: aramis;319633Say... anybody been able to scrounge up photos of Lorraine Dille Williams? I wasn't. But if I recall the WWIVnet rumours she was like 100#+ overweight; 250+ or so...

http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mc_los_141

Quote from: mhensley;319669http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mc_los_141

Ok, that looks more like 350-400# or so...

not the 30-40# extra of Gary, but probably 200-300# of excess blobbage.

At which point, yeah, it's bloody relevant that she's let herself get that huge.

It shows a concerted lack of will, and is large enough that it probably predates her majority, and probably also resulted in major emotional pain. NOT something you want in a CEO.

Horseshit. You can't psychoanalyse someone based on the size of their bum.

But if you believe it, then post pics of yourself to prove your own self-discipline, etc.

Notice that all the guys criticising Williams based on her appearance are careful to be hiding behind net anonymity, with no pictures or anything like their real names as screen nicks. Funny, that. Ever-willing to give shit, but never-willing to take it.

You don't get this kind of bullshit when people use something like their real names for nicks and their own pictures as avatars. Put up or shut up.

Quote from: RPGPundit;319484You're wrong.
There's Jolly-angry, there's ugly-angry, and there's PUNDIT-angry.

I'm the third kind.

I stand corrected! Is it something like Ludicrous Speed?

Quote from: aramis;319672It shows a concerted lack of will, and is large enough that it probably predates her majority, and probably also resulted in major emotional pain. NOT something you want in a CEO.

What more can you tell us about her childhood, based on that one crappy picture of her? I'm keen to know.

Quote from: aramis;319672It shows a concerted lack of will...

This has to be one of the most ignorant things I've ever read on this site.

Quote from: aramis;319672It shows a concerted lack of will...

That word does not mean what you think it means.

(http://i15.servimg.com/u/f15/11/26/15/41/talon10.jpg)

Quote from: Fifth Element;319718I stand corrected! Is it something like Ludicrous Speed?

Something like that, yes.

RPGPundit

Quote from: mhensley;319669http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mc_los_141

I don't get it.

Is she inside or behind the circus pavillion?

Quote from: _kent_;319799I don't get it.

Is she inside or behind the circus pavillion?

Her weight is none of our business. But that dress made of curtains is a crime.

Her choice of clothing clearly indicates some deep emotional trauma, that manifests itself as being a total bitch and trying to murder my childhood.

Quote from: Diavilo;320852Her weight is none of our business. But that dress made of curtains is a crime.

Dresses like just about every other fat gamer chick with self-image issues that I know. You could probably throw a Cthulhu plushie at GenCon this weekend and hit a dozen more just like her. Probably a wiccan too. Except she was contemptuous of gamers... go figure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYJoNf5CnGc

I'm so sorry.

Quote from: marionpoliquin;320934http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryjonf5cngc

i'm so sorry.

oh god my eyes!!!!

Quote from: MarionPoliquin;320934http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYJoNf5CnGc

I'm so sorry.

Please don't do that ever again.

Just as an example Flint Dille has credit on the Transformers G1 TV SERIES, pretty much the start of all the brouhaha, which even if he was just fronting money, still implies a successful venture of epic proportions on his part.

Quote from: RPGPundit;320963
oh god my eyes!!!!

What about your ears?

Mine are bleeding!

Quote from: OneTinSoldier;319326Actually, body-language studies and VICAP profiling doctrine* asserts it as being a fact. As with any psy-read, its not hard science, but statistically it is true.

* = in case you're not familar with the program, it has (over the course of thousands of cases) established a 93% accuracy ratio).

True that.

QuoteGygax was an idiot, in business terms. He had a flash of creative glory translateing mini rules into a more personal gaming experience, and because of his timing, he started a niche hobby. And that's about the extent of his glory. He was a failure as a businessman (not unusal in the RPG industry), and was a has-been by the mid-80s.

Again I agree. I don't think that Gygax was the Perfect Being some persons make of him. He was at the right time at the right place, and had a good idea. He struck true exactly once.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;319327As I said, even assuming that fatness is an indicator of personality (which fails to explain what happens when someone changes their physique, does their personality change too?)

Actually it does change, Kyle. Though I agree with you on most of your points on this thread, the body you have relates to your personality, and most times the body and fitness you have is a product of your choices.

QuoteOf course, had TSR gone on to (for example) buy Wizards and later Hasbro under Williams' leadership, nerds would be saying how brilliant Gygax was to bring her in, and how really he deserves all the credit.

Absolutely, and I find that hilarious.

QuoteThis is all about fat gamer geeks looking at the success of another fat gamer geek and wishing it were them. That's why we can't criticise him - because it's striking at the heart of the gamer geek fantasy of success.

Good one.

This is my fat ass while my g/f and I were travelling on foot through St James' Pathway, just so you know where I stand.
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_0eNUlKAB4jk/SeZRpAGwptI/AAAAAAAAFIc/5lP4XXqv-SI/s720/DSCF3679.JPG)

For Kyle:
I'm not fat, but I am extremely high in this picture:

Quote from: MarionPoliquin;319739That word does not mean what you think it means.

(http://i15.servimg.com/u/f15/11/26/15/41/talon10.jpg)

LOL.

I LOVE Achille Talon! Thanks for that!

by concerted lack of will, yes, I know what it means, and yes it was intentional. I was referring to such persons tending to have been allowed to indulge themselves by their parents, and actively avoiding making efforts to avoid the weight. Very few people that big MAKE any effort, and often actively avoid efforts to avoid food.

It's almost oxymoronic, but not quite. They and those around them actively avoid any effort to both avoid overeating and to burn the calories.

Quote from: aramis;321200by concerted lack of will, yes, I know what it means, and yes it was intentional. I was referring to such persons tending to have been allowed to indulge themselves by their parents, and actively avoiding making efforts to avoid the weight. Very few people that big MAKE any effort, and often actively avoid efforts to avoid food.

This is false.  I work in the diet industry (don't ask), and lots of people try very hard to control their eating and still fail.

Quote from: Jeffrey Straszheim;321207This is false.  I work in the diet industry (don't ask), and lots of people try very hard to control their eating and still fail.

I don't care how fat she is/ was. Dressing up as a Christmas Tree is unforgivable.

I still rate GG, because of the energy he put into it all. He seems to have slaved for years before, unsurprisingly, losing it for a bit when a pile of cash rolled in for a while.

T&T and Empire of the Petal Throne had the same opportunity but didn't throw themselves into it. Putting together the AD&D books along with the Giants/ Drow Modules set D&D apart. That and it had a much better name.

Quote from: Diavilo;321220I don't care how fat she is/ was. Dressing up as a Christmas Tree is unforgivable.

I can't argue with that.