TheRPGSite

I unearthed a box of my old books at my parents place that included my old shoddy AD&D 1e set (PHB, DMB, MM and FF). So, having not run an AD&D 1e game since I was a pimply youngster please share with me some common pitfalls to avoid in the rules.

I have been searching around for the common house rules that seem to be in use (a great example for me is: Kyle's Pfaffenberg's Folly (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=20944)). But I would love any suggestions from veteran AD&D 1e players/ref's for running a fun game.

Please help me out!

(The game will be a pretty standard, light-hearted, dungeon crawling fools affair if that helps with the advice any).

Read the books.

You might be surprised by what is actually in there after all these years.  I know it was for me, going back over 1e/2e books after years of 3e/4e.

Quote from: Rum Cove;504239Read the books.

You might be surprised by what is actually in there after all these years.  I know it was for me, going back over 1e/2e books after years of 3e/4e.

I am re-reading the books and currently I am wrapping my brain around the Surprise rules with segements of activity :)

Are you playing with your old gaming group?

I found that old house rules are ingrained and they'll come back without encouragement.  It's just like a riding a bike!

You get experience points for magic items, a lot of them. So it is often better to avoid monsters and just steal their treasure when possible.

Quote from: Rum Cove;504244Are you playing with your old gaming group?

I found that old house rules are ingrained and they'll come back without encouragement.  It's just like a riding a bike!

Nope. The books are from when I was in high school, which is about 20 years ago. That original group are long dispersed.

It may offend some 1e fans, but I found that reading OSRIC, which reorganises the 1e rule set and removes a couple of the wackier peripheral rules like psionics, was actually a good way to get back into 1e after years away from it. My mind clicked to it much easier and now I use it alongside my 1e books. For example, initiative, surprise and segments are easier to understand (I am sure the initiative rules in the DMG are incomplete :D).

It's free over at http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/osric/.

Quote from: Skywalker;504256It may offend some 1e fans, but I found that reading OSRIC, which reorganises the 1e rule set and removes a couple of the wackier peripheral rules like psionics, was actually a good way to get back into 1e after years away from it. My mind clicked to it much easier and now I use it alongside my 1e books. For example, initiative, surprise and segments are easier to understand (I am sure the initiative rules in the DMG are incomplete :D).

It's free over at http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/osric/.

Uh wow, that did make it much easier to understand the initiative rules. Thanks heaps for that one Skywalker.

Quote from: Skywalker;504256It may offend some 1e fans, but I found that reading OSRIC, which reorganises the 1e rule set and removes a couple of the wackier peripheral rules like psionics, was actually a good way to get back into 1e after years away from it.

How close is it to the original?  Is it only re-organized and more clearly written or is it like every retro-clone I've seen where personal house rules are included?

Quote from: Rum Cove;504258How close is it to the original?  Is it only re-organized and more clearly written or is it like every retro-clone I've seen where personal house rules are included?

It's very close, much closer than any other retroclone. OSRIC is pretty much what started the OSR. It was designed to put AD&D1e back into print so publishers could create new modules for 1e and be able to refer to an in print rule set.

OSRIC has removed some of the more peripheral rules like Bards and Psionics but the rest is the same unless there is an IP issue. For example, level names were removed as they are artistic expression.

In any case, it's free to check out.

Yes: using OSRIC to understand all the main chunks if you're having trouble with the AD&D books is useful. It may be one point of view or one interpretation amongst others, and missing some elements from the originals (like say, how weapon specialization is integrated versus Unearthed Arcana, or the lack of weapon speeds and the like), but all in all, it's a great tool to get a first grasp on stuff, and as a reference volume while you play as well.

My advice regarding the reading is to try to take what is said as a DM yourself. Don't read the DMG for the charts and tables only. Actually read the text, especially the advice, with an open, active mind, rather than a passive reader wanting to get on with it, down to the gritty rules. First Ed's books are not toaster manuals. They're intended to be read, not just skimmed through, in other words.

Are there any particular questions or pieces of advice you're after? I get the feeling I'm being too general here.

Quote from: Rum Cove;504258How close is it to the original?  Is it only re-organized and more clearly written or is it like every retro-clone I've seen where personal house rules are included?

Very close, but it is still an interpretation of the rules, rather than their letter. Some elements to be found in the originals are missing in OSRIC, like the Monk class, the Weapon vs. AC tables, the weapon speeds, whereas others are included, like weapon specializations from UA. It is not an absolute equivalent, in other words, but it's really, really close to the original material.

Quote from: Benoist;504261Very close, but it is still an interpretation of the rules, rather than their letter. Some elements to be found in the originals are missing in OSRIC, like the Monk class, the Weapon vs. AC tables, the weapon speeds, whereas others are included, like weapon specializations from UA. It is not an absolute equivalent, in other words, but it's really, really close to the original material.

Not close enough for me.  Which is why I've been disappointed by the whole "old school" series of retro-clones.

Having to change the experience tables so that the numbers have an extra point per level is understandable for legal reasons, but the choice to leave out any of the above (that I made bold) is a house rule being forced on new players.

I personally use the Weapon Type vs. AC tables and Weapon Speeds, which don't slow the game down at all and actually add a tactical element that some claim is missing in TSR D&D.

Nah I can see that has being a deal-breaker since you use these elements. I do not,except for the monk, and actually use AD&D and OSRIC at my game table as opposed to one or the other, so I don't see it as a problem. YMMV.

Quote from: jeff37923;504245You get experience points for magic items, a lot of them. So it is often better to avoid monsters and just steal their treasure when possible.

I hate quoting myself, but the above in AD&D is left out of OSRIC and I think it is very important to the feel of play in AD&D.

Quote from: jeff37923;504281I hate quoting myself, but the above in AD&D is left out of OSRIC and I think it is very important to the feel of play in AD&D.

Exactly.  OSRIC is not AD&D (or D&D), it is OSRIC.

Quote from: Rum Cove;504258How close is it to the original?  Is it only re-organized and more clearly written or is it like every retro-clone I've seen where personal house rules are included?

It is what it is.  It is a clone of another game therefore imperfect in many areas as the removal of the Bard and Psionics is concerned.

As a long time DM and player of 1st edition, I say ignore OSRIC which is also a culmination of house rules from those people over there at K&KA.    

Do you want to play 1st Edition D&D or do you want to play OSCRAP because it is two VERY DIFFERENt GAMES.  Needless to say that members of K&KA will convince to to go to their product which is highly inferior to the ORIGINAL rules as they were written.

You know what you want and you seem intelligent enough to figure out how to apply the rules even if they are a bit befuddled.

QuoteNot close enough for me. Which is why I've been disappointed by the whole "old school" series of retro-clones.

Do you know why these people do these clone things???  They are trying to secure their place in the world of rpg's whereas in real life these people have not accomplished anything significant.  They think that a clone is an ORIGINAL PRODUCT which in its entirety is NOT.  It is a facsimili.  It is a copy.  SO with that thinking, they think they are creating something great and basically will never ESCAPE the shadow of the true creator(s) of the original game.    

If you want to impress people, create an ORIGINAL game that IS NOT a false copy of a GREAT GAME.  

A prime example of this is STAR FLEET BATTLES and FEDERATION COMMANDER.  

QuoteFederation Commander is largely based on Star Fleet Battles (SFB), and carries over many of its basic rules and game dynamics. It was designed to be a game which would be similar to Star Fleet Battles, but which would provide more ease of learning and playability. It provides a balance between tactical nuance and ease of playability, in order to provide a game which is more accessible for newer gamers, or those with limited time constraints.
 
Some Star Fleet Battles rules were omitted from the game, in order to make gameplay more streamlined, and to eliminate some processes which some players found overly complex. Another motive was to make game rules and dynamics more understandable for new players.

[/B]

Federation Commander could be considered a clone BUT it is not.  It is not compatiable with SFB even though both games are designed by the same company.  One is for complexed players, the other is for new players and those who are limited in time constraints.

Quote from: jeff37923;504281I hate quoting myself, but the above in AD&D is left out of OSRIC and I think it is very important to the feel of play in AD&D.

You mean the 1 XP for 1 GP rule, and specific value of items taken out of the dungeon and sold afterwards? (DMG p. 85) It is in OSRIC, Chapter 3, How To Play, section Gaining Levels, subsection Experience, second paragraph. (OSRIC p.118, BBP printing)

Quote from: Benoist;504260My advice regarding the reading is to try to take what is said as a DM yourself. Don't read the DMG for the charts and tables only. Actually read the text, especially the advice, with an open, active mind, rather than a passive reader wanting to get on with it, down to the gritty rules. First Ed's books are not toaster manuals. They're intended to be read, not just skimmed through, in other words.

Are there any particular questions or pieces of advice you're after? I get the feeling I'm being too general here.

I am doing a read through of the rules again to (re)familiarise myself with the basic methods, keeping an eye out for what I originally would have glossed over. Currently I am going through the Surprise and Initiative stuff and trying to re-aquaint myself with them. To be honest they read really well (as you said reading the whole text is a lot of fun and interesting years later).

But since I probably will only have enough time to run through a couple simulation combats and the like with my wife prior to game day, I was hoping to get some good pointers about what works well in AD&D 1e at the table (ie: what house rules) and what just bogs it down, in the experience of veterans of the system.

For instance, I love the look of Shields Will Be Splintered and the variants that have come up in my googling, it looks fun and simple to use.

One of the questions that come up to my mind at the moment is, going through the surprise rules (bear in mind I don't have the original books with me at the moment to quote out of them), I was wondering how well they work in play or does it bog down. My first read through was that it was bloody complicated when you have people who surprise on different numbers, coupled with high dex off-setting when they could act. Do people use this ruling or is it just hand waved by most?

Now I am sure stuff will work out in play and I will use my own judgement, but it is always good to hear from veteran players about what works well and what they tweak to suit.

Basically, Benoist, tell me something that works well in play and tell me another thing that you found to be pointless fluff :)

One of my personal house rules is that I try to associate d20s with "higher is better" and d10s with "lower is better".  This was to help remove some confusion for players from later editions.

Attacks and Saving Throws use d20 - higher is better.
Thief Skills (d%) and Ability Score Tests (2d10) use d10s - lower is better.

I bring this all up to respond to your questions about Surprise.  We roll d20s (with modifiers based on Reaction Adjustment from Dexterity) - a result of 7 or higher means that the character is not surprised and may get an action in before those that are surprised.

Since we play more of a 2e game, we skip the segments and it's a little less complicated.  Mind you, we roll individual initiative each round (after the action is stated) with modifiers including Weapon Speed.

Quote from: Benoist;504287You mean the 1 XP for 1 GP rule, and specific value of items taken out of the dungeon and sold afterwards? (DMG p. 85) It is in OSRIC, Chapter 3, How To Play, section Gaining Levels, subsection Experience, second paragraph. (OSRIC p.118, BBP printing)

Magic Items in AD&D and AD&D2 had experience point values that you gained if you got that item through adventuring. That is not in OSRIC.

Poop!  I missed this thread.

One "house rule" (well, it's really not a "house rule" but more using a by the book tournament rule for the house) we use is the "Generating a party on a spur of the moment" section in the Dungeon Masters Guide, dicing up of magic items - it helps smaller, weaker parties out a tad (or it can) and gives characters a bit more than "I step on the next step down" "A punch dagger fires up at your neck and does...2 points of damage.  You're dead.  Roll up another character" after five minutes of play.

Also, speaking of 'gear, help newer players out and build a few "kits" of basic adventuring gear - rope, spikes, 10' pole, torches, rations, wine, that sort of thing and pre-configure the encumbrance and when they start, give it to them and deduct whatever starting monies it costs.

Makes getting off the ground pretty easy.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;504310Poop!  I missed this thread.

One "house rule" (well, it's really not a "house rule" but more using a by the book tournament rule for the house) we use is the "Generating a party on a spur of the moment" section in the Dungeon Masters Guide, dicing up of magic items - it helps smaller, weaker parties out a tad (or it can) and gives characters a bit more than "I step on the next step down" "A punch dagger fires up at your neck and does...2 points of damage.  You're dead.  Roll up another character" after five minutes of play.

Missed the thread? I hope not :) I just got back from the pub at lunch after watching the start of the cricket.

But thanks for that hint about the magic items, I'll give it a look, sounds like it could spice things up nicely.

Quote from: jeff37923;504308Magic Items in AD&D and AD&D2 had experience point values that you gained if you got that item through adventuring. That is not in OSRIC.

Incorrect. It is. Look at the DMG lists of items p. 122+. You will notice a column for the XP value, and one for the Market Price. The XP values indicated are in case the character keeps the item (p. 121), whereas items sold have their GP value directly translated as XP (p.85). Both are in OSRIC (p. 118) which explains you retain 10% of the item value if you keep it (the former case, though all the values listed in the DMG have been defaulted to a flat 10% ratio), and gain 100% of the value if you sell it (the latter case).

So it's right there. It's just worded differently. If anything, I think the 10% ratio might be a little low compared to the detail of items in the DMG, but it's there nonetheless.

Quote from: tellius;504312Missed the thread? I hope not :) I just got back from the pub at lunch after watching the start of the cricket.

But thanks for that hint about the magic items, I'll give it a look, sounds like it could spice things up nicely.

It does; it kind of elevates things into the realm of "here, take uncle Bilbo's old sword, Sting, and his elven chain cloak..."

I wouldn't do it if you're not starting the party at level 1, and/or if you're not running a convention game.

Quote from: tellius;504304Basically, Benoist, tell me something that works well in play and tell me another thing that you found to be pointless fluff :)

Something I think works really well is to just eyeball probabilities on a d6 or other die type, the rolls for dwarves p.16 for instance. You know, just not splitting endless hairs with modifiers on skills and all that bullshit and just go "ok you try that, you're a dwarf right? What armor are you wearing? Ok. Let's just say you got a 1 in 3 chance of making it. Roll 1d6." Just eyeball and move on with the game. And shift die types too to keep the players on their toes.

I use a percentile table for various oppositions too, as a house rule. Comes from RuneQuest actually. It's handy, and allows me to not slow down the game with multiple rolls or calculations of probabilities. It's simple, straightforward, it works in actual play.

Something I don't care about... weapons versus AC. I'm tempted to use them every once in a while, I like the principle of it, but in the end, I just don't need it. I feel my games are already tactical enough as they are. You can ask the players of the RPGSite here.

Quote from: Benoist;504287You mean the 1 XP for 1 GP rule, and specific value of items taken out of the dungeon and sold afterwards? (DMG p. 85)

Actually, AD&D1e had xp for any items kept, too.

So you could have the XP for the item if kept, OR the XP for the GP of the item if sold. Not both.

But simply keeping the thing for a while would give you XP.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;504322Actually, AD&D1e had xp for any items kept, too.

So you could have the XP for the item if kept, OR the XP for the GP of the item if sold. Not both.

But simply keeping the thing for a while would give you XP.

Just answered that after the post you quoted (3 posts before yours). :)

Quote from: tellius;504236But I would love any suggestions from veteran AD&D 1e players/ref's for running a fun game.

Decide if you want to run 1e RAW or not. There is no right answer. It depends on how you feel about what you are reading and only you know what will rock hard for your group.

BTW, there is a PDF online that is a reformatted version of OD&D in a single volume by a guy named Greyharp. Nothing changed, just edited for clarity. Worth a look if you want something equally authentic, but rules lighter.

For me, the best fun was always saying fuck it to the rules. Anything that remotely slows my game gets jettisoned. Its all about fast, crazy brutal madness with lots of horror and adventure.

I suggest at least 3rd or 4th level characters. The "fun" of having your 1st level party get TPK'd twice in one night is highly overrated. (It's more humorous when its a 4th level party).

If you love designing dungeons, go for it. If you don't or aren't sure, then whip out the DMG 1e and roll up a dungeon via Gary's tables. Don't mess with any of the numbers and roll up contents for rooms, sounds, smells and use every table in the back. THEN take the total randomness and look for patterns. Sit back and envision the story of how these elements came to be and the tale will come to you and your dungeon will come alive.

Quote from: Ancientgamer1970;504286Do you want to play 1st Edition D&D or do you want to play OSCRAP because it is two VERY DIFFERENt GAMES.

This is grogtard bullshit. Outside of the forums, nobody gives a damn about the minute differences.

99% of gamers are waaaay more concerned about pizza toppings than whether the DM is using 1e, 2e or OSRIC.

Quote from: Benoist;504314Incorrect. It is. Look at the DMG lists of items p. 122+. You will notice a column for the XP value, and one for the Market Price. The XP values indicated are in case the character keeps the item (p. 121), whereas items sold have their GP value directly translated as XP (p.85). Both are in OSRIC (p. 118) which explains you retain 10% of the item value if you keep it (the former case, though all the values listed in the DMG have been defaulted to a flat 10% ratio), and gain 100% of the value if you sell it (the latter case).

So it's right there. It's just worded differently. If anything, I think the 10% ratio might be a little low compared to the detail of items in the DMG, but it's there nonetheless.

OK, now tell me where the list of magic items and their associated GP value is in OSRIC so I can use this section that I missed (on p118).

Quote from: Ancientgamer1970;504286Do you know why these people do these clone things???  They are trying to secure their place in the world of rpg's whereas in real life these people have not accomplished anything significant.  They think that a clone is an ORIGINAL PRODUCT which in its entirety is NOT.  It is a facsimili.  It is a copy.  SO with that thinking, they think they are creating something great and basically will never ESCAPE the shadow of the true creator(s) of the original game.    

So bitter. :rant:

Actually the clones exist for the purpose of producing new support product for classic games. New modules usable with OD&D, BD&D and AD&D are a good thing. If you have the original rules then there isn't a need to get the clone game and the adventures are easy enough to use with nearly no conversion required.

So, the clones don't need to be some great creative work of art to fufill thier function. They are merely a means to an end.

Quote from: Spinachcat;504344Decide if you want to run 1e RAW or not. There is no right answer. It depends on how you feel about what you are reading and only you know what will rock hard for your group.

BTW, there is a PDF online that is a reformatted version of OD&D in a single volume by a guy named Greyharp. Nothing changed, just edited for clarity. Worth a look if you want something equally authentic, but rules lighter.

For me, the best fun was always saying fuck it to the rules. Anything that remotely slows my game gets jettisoned. Its all about fast, crazy brutal madness with lots of horror and adventure.

I suggest at least 3rd or 4th level characters. The "fun" of having your 1st level party get TPK'd twice in one night is highly overrated. (It's more humorous when its a 4th level party).

If you love designing dungeons, go for it. If you don't or aren't sure, then whip out the DMG 1e and roll up a dungeon via Gary's tables. Don't mess with any of the numbers and roll up contents for rooms, sounds, smells and use every table in the back. THEN take the total randomness and look for patterns. Sit back and envision the story of how these elements came to be and the tale will come to you and your dungeon will come alive.



This is grogtard bullshit. Outside of the forums, nobody gives a damn about the minute differences.

99% of gamers are waaaay more concerned about pizza toppings than whether the DM is using 1e, 2e or OSRIC.

so true :)

Quote from: jeff37923;504360OK, now tell me where the list of magic items and their associated GP value is in OSRIC so I can use this section that I missed (on p118).

Apparently, the GP value of items is not listed in the book, it seems for legal reasons. That's the best answer I could find right away. I'm investigating it.

What made me react Jeff is when you said that the principle of XP awards for keeping/selling items wasn't included, which really made me go "huh?" because I do believe like you this is really important for the feel of AD&D.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;504388Actually the clones exist for the purpose of producing new support product for classic games.

This. The original and true purpose of the creation of OSRIC (Old School Reference Index and Compilation) was to allow the publication of AD&D First Ed products via the OGL.

The use of the same document as an actual game at the table was an indirect consequence of its existence (one that kind of surprised Stuart Marshall at the time, if memory serves). That's why the document feels very dry in its first iterations, and how it took on more the feel of a game afterwards as this fact became acknowledged by the editors.

Quote from: Benoist;504426Apparently, the GP value of items is not listed in the book, it seems for legal reasons. That's the best answer I could find right away. I'm investigating it.

Got an update on that front: the editors are aware of the issue, and the GP values of items (as can be derived from the SRD) is on the "to do" list for a future update of the OSRIC document.

Quote from: Spinachcat;504344This is grogtard bullshit. Outside of the forums, nobody gives a damn about the minute differences.

99% of gamers are waaaay more concerned about pizza toppings than whether the DM is using 1e, 2e or OSRIC.

 I have no clue what a grogtard is or if you are referring to grognard but in any case, I am not in either camp.  

How do you know what goes on outside of the forums???  There are some gamers who do care about minute differences and in this case, a simple difference is what seperates one game from another.

99% of gamers are more concerned with pizza toppings???  How do you now this?  So with your statement that gives a defined percentage, you are claiming you have intervewed gamers and asked them what is more important.

You are too funny.  Dismissed you are.  LOL      :rotfl:

Quote from: Ancientgamer1970;50446799% of gamers are more concerned with pizza toppings???  How do you now this?  So with your statement that gives a defined percentage, you are claiming you have intervewed gamers and asked them what is more important.

My mom said so, so it must be true.

Quote from: Benoist;504427This. The original and true purpose of the creation of OSRIC (Old School Reference Index and Compilation) was to allow the publication of AD&D First Ed products via the OGL.

Which it did so successfully, in that publishers have been creating new modules for OSRIC that are by design 99.99% compatible for AD&D1e. As a fan of AD&D1e, I don't see this as a bad thing at all.

Also having access to a free copy of OSRIC has made recruiting for AD&D1e games much easier than expecting players to source original 1e books.

As Benoist mentioned above, I have all my 1e books at the table when using OSRIC and vice versa, so it really needn't be one or the other.

Let's not derail this thread (on advice for 1e D&D) with a debate on the merits and validity of OSRIC.

At the very least, OSRIC gives a different perspective on rules that may not be as clear in the original texts.

For those without the original texts, they are easily accessible and affordable (of surprising quality) through many used book vendors.

Quote from: Rum Cove;504482At the very least, OSRIC gives a different perspective on rules that may not be as clear in the original texts.

Actually, OSRIC, while being an interpretation (or rather, an emulation through the OGL) and thus not an exact facsimile of the original rules, is I think far clearer than the original, when taken as a game manual, a reference book, rather than a conversation from one DM to another (which is what the DMG is at its core). It's part of the appeal of the reference document added to an AD&D library, to me.

And I must say, if I may (I'm very curious about that), I'm kind of surprised by the way you feel disappointed by the clones not being exact replicas of the games they emulate, while you yourself are adding stuff in your campaign like 2d10 bell-curve roll under ability scores, d20 initiative on which you add weapon speeds, and some stuff that really makes me wonder: if OSRIC isn't AD&D to you, how is your own game AD&D itself? Are you making a differenciation here I'm not seeing? Are you telling players "we're going to play AD&D tonight" and use these rules? So if that is AD&D to you, how is OSRIC not another AD&D than your own?

There's something here that's not computing with me, so I must be missing something. Hence the questions. Thanks.

Quote from: Rum Cove;504482At the very least, OSRIC gives a different perspective on rules that may not be as clear in the original texts.

For those without the original texts, they are easily accessible and affordable (of surprising quality) through many used book vendors.

I agree. In my first post OSRIC was mentioned as a useful stepping stone if you want to get into AD&D1e, not a replacement to it.

Quote from: Skywalker;504486I agree. In my first post OSRIC was mentioned as a useful stepping stone if you want to get into AD&D1e, not a replacement to it.

I agree too. OSRIC is not meant as a replacement, but it's a very valuable aid at the game table. To me at least.

If you really want to use AD&D's combat and initiative and surprise rules exactly by the book, this is as close as you'll likely get.

AD&D Initiative and Combat Tables: ADDICT (http://www.multifoliate.com/dnd/ADDICT.pdf)

Quote from: Benoist;504485There's something here that's not computing with me, so I must be missing something. Hence the questions. Thanks.

The difference to me, is that I'm not compiling it into a document, releasing it to the public (whether for free or money, doesn't matter) and claiming that it is D&D in a re-organized and clearer format.

Not once I have seen it claimed that "this is 1e with our own house rules" or "this is B/X with my own house rules" (except maybe Lamentations of the Flame Princess and Dwimmermount).  It is usually "want to play AD&D for free?  Get OSRIC" and "the ORIGINAL untouched game is available as S&W".  There just seems to be something disingenuous about retro-clones (especially with the copyright/trademarking of the faux brands).

If OSRIC is D&D, then so is Rolemaster and Palladium Fantasy.  D&D is a brand.

However, for you to understand how I view D&D the game (and what is and isn't).  It's all D&D with houserules.  And I think everyone, even those who do it "RAW" are playing D&D with houserules, because interpretations vary, even with the same individual over time.

A group of kids without dice could be playing a houseruled version of D&D, if that's what they are saying they are doing.

Short hands are needed to help two individuals communicate.  When I say that I play 2e and that you play OSRIC, outsiders familiar with each version understand (and assume we have house rules).  For new players, I think it is wrong to have them associate OSRIC with AD&D, no matter how close they may be.

Quote from: Rum Cove;504497The difference to me, is that I'm not compiling it into a document, releasing it to the public (whether for free or money, doesn't matter) and claiming that it is D&D in an re-organized and clearer format.

Not once I have seen it claimed that "this is 1e with our own house rules" or "this is B/X with my own house rules" (except maybe Lamentations of the Flame Princess and Dwimmermount).  It is usually "want to play AD&D for free?  Get OSRIC" and "the ORIGINAL untouched game is available as S&W".  There just seems to be something disingenuous about retro-clones (especially with the copyright/trademarking of the faux brands).

OK. NONE of the editors of said retroclones are saying any of these things, and Stuart Marshall, the compiler/editor of OSRIC, is certainly, emphatically, NOT saying this is "AD&D re-organized in a clearer format". You can hear that from fans like myself, but not from the guys who put this thing together. When you ask Stuart what OSRIC is, he'll tell you this is first and foremost a tool, a reference document to be used to publish AD&D materials via the OGL. That's it.

The rest is fans looking at OSRIC and saying "hey, it's actually really useful to understand some points of the AD&D game, it's a cool aid" and so on. Likewise, you won't see Matt Finch pretending that Swords & Wizardry is a carbon copy of OD&D, or Daniel Proctor pretending that Labyrinth Lord is a carbon copy of B/X. That's just not happening at all.

Quote from: Rum Cove;504497However, for you to understand how I view D&D the game (and what is and isn't).  It's all D&D with houserules.  And I think everyone, even those who do it "RAW" are playing D&D with houserules, because interpretations vary, even with the same individual over time.

That we agree on, hence some fans just saying "hey, OSRIC is pretty much AD&D," or "hey, S&W Complete is pretty much OD&D with supplements". That's what you can see. I like OSRIC. I say that, partly because I don't care for the "D&D brand" and call a D&D game for what it is. A D&D game.

Quote from: Rum Cove;504497If OSRIC is D&D, then so is Rolemaster and Palladium Fantasy. D&D is a brand.

I don't care for the brand name when we're talking actual play. OSRIC used as a reference manual is nigh undistinguishable to me from AD&D First Ed. Now like I said, I understand the disconnect if you're using weapon speeds and the like, though I must admit that reading about your houserules afterwards made me wonder about the frustration you're expressing right now.

Quote from: Rum Cove;504497For new players, I think it is wrong to have them associate OSRIC with AD&D, no matter how close they may be.

Yeah. I completely disagree with that. What helps helps. If you find yourself lost in the AD&D books language and can't understand this or that rule, it pays off to check out OSRIC's take on the same principle. It just helps a lot. I don't care if it's got a "D&D" sticker on the cover or not, as long as it's useful at the game table. OSRIC is useful to me, at my 1e table, and that's the end of it, as far as I'm concerned.

ooooh great, another edition war but this time between the real deal (1st edition AD&D) and a clone (OSCRAP)...


It will never end...

Lurk more.

Quote from: Benoist;504426Apparently, the GP value of items is not listed in the book, it seems for legal reasons. That's the best answer I could find right away. I'm investigating it.

What made me react Jeff is when you said that the principle of XP awards for keeping/selling items wasn't included, which really made me go "huh?" because I do believe like you this is really important for the feel of AD&D.

I'm just a bit mortified that I missed that part on p118 when we were playing it.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;504388Actually the clones exist for the purpose of producing new support product for classic games. New modules usable with OD&D, BD&D and AD&D are a good thing. If you have the original rules then there isn't a need to get the clone game and the adventures are easy enough to use with nearly no conversion required.

So, the clones don't need to be some great creative work of art to fufill thier function. They are merely a means to an end.

This, a thousand times this.

Quote from: Ancientgamer1970;504506ooooh great, another edition war but this time between the real deal (1st edition AD&D) and a clone (OSCRAP)...

Not really.  Skywalker and Benoist made it clear in their posts that OSRIC was 1e AD&D with some slight changes.  I had hoped, for the benefit of new players or those unfamiliar with the changes and their effect to the game, that those changes were not included.

I agree with both of them, that people should use OSRIC and 1e together.

Quote from: tellius;504236I unearthed a box of my old books at my parents place that included my old shoddy AD&D 1e set (PHB, DMB, MM and FF). So, having not run an AD&D 1e game since I was a pimply youngster please share with me some common pitfalls to avoid in the rules.

I have been searching around for the common house rules that seem to be in use (a great example for me is: Kyle's Pfaffenberg's Folly (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=20944)). But I would love any suggestions from veteran AD&D 1e players/ref's for running a fun game.

Please help me out!

(The game will be a pretty standard, light-hearted, dungeon crawling fools affair if that helps with the advice any).

My recommendation is to use a sticky note for the appendices at the back for fast reference, particularly the smells, sounds, random crap in rooms, and traps tables, which are tremendously handy in play (and not just in D&D). Or print them off separately if you should have a pdf of it.

Quote from: Benoist;504485d20 initiative on which you add weapon speeds

Actually, we use 1d10 with modifiers, including weapon speeds.  Lowest goes first.

As I said above, I try to associate d20s with "higher is better" and d10s with "lower is better" since we just came away from 4e (when Essentials was released).

I am fortunate enough to be playing with old friends, most started the hobby with me, so a lot of our houserules are just barnacle from over the decades and are now ingrained.  They might seem strange to outsiders, but that's the beauty of D&D.

I agree: the "flamewar" only exists in AG's mind. :)

Hey, by the way, here's the thread where we're talking about megadungeon design:
http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=21636

Check it out!

Quote from: Rum Cove;504516Not really.  Skywalker and Benoist made it clear in their posts that OSRIC was 1e AD&D with some slight changes.  I had hoped, for the benefit of new players or those unfamiliar with the changes and their effect to the game, that those changes were not included.

I agree with both of them, that people should use OSRIC and 1e together.

People will always be led astray and that is not my problem.

OSCRAP is not 1st Edition, plain and simple.  It is a clone.

u r fat 11111!!!!

Quote from: Ancientgamer1970;504535OSCRAP is not 1st Edition, plain and simple.  It is a clone.

I don't think anyone has claimed OSRIC is AD&D1e.

Quote from: Skywalker;504538I don't think anyone has claimed OSRIC is AD&D1e.

The voices in his head did.

Quote from: Rum Cove;504283Exactly.  OSRIC is not AD&D (or D&D), it is OSRIC.

I wouldn't go that far. OSRIC is AD&D, but it's just not 1e. And that's ok.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;504519My recommendation is to use a sticky note for the appendices at the back for fast reference, particularly the smells, sounds, random crap in rooms, and traps tables, which are tremendously handy in play (and not just in D&D). Or print them off separately if you should have a pdf of it.

Actually I love this idea, thanks Psuedo. I was already scanning and printing out the relevant parts and making notes.

Quote from: Rum Cove;504524As I said above, I try to associate d20s with "higher is better" and d10s with "lower is better" since we just came away from 4e (when Essentials was released).

This is pretty handy too. I hadn't made the link until I went over the loyalty and morale rules again after reading this, so thanks.

Quote from: tellius;504609Actually I love this idea, thanks Psuedo. I was already scanning and printing out the relevant parts and making notes.

NP. I got some loose sheets with the tables on them, and they form part of my "core DM" package that I bring whenever I DM a fantasy game.

Hehehe if a mini flame war shows up because OSRIC isn't just a photocopy of the 3 1e core books then the chances of 5e penetrating grognardia are slim indeed.

Rum cove initiative you describe is 2e we always use it as well.

He's a good question for those that care about such things. if you use the xp for collected magic items you decide to keep but GP value for the items you sell then how long do you have to keep an item for before you sell it? when you sell it do you get eh xp for selling it ? What about if a PC in the party steals a magic item form another guy in the party, xp? HOw is stealing from a PC different from stealing from an NPC?

just sayin..... :)

Quote from: Aos;504507Lurk more.

:rotfl:

Quote from: One Horse Town;504619:rotfl:

That too was pretty good advice :)

Quote from: tellius;504610This is pretty handy too. I hadn't made the link until I went over the loyalty and morale rules again after reading this, so thanks.

Be mindful of which dice are used if you are going "by the book".  Sometimes it is 2d10, other times it is 1d8+1d12.  I think Morale in 1e is the latter, but it has been awhile.

First off, this is an advanced version of an RPG. It has a whole ton of extra material that you may not want and certainly don't need to run the game. If this is your first go around as a DM for early D&D start out with a smaller system. Given that, there is a great deal of good stuff in the AD&D manuals to add. Give it a look and use what you want, change what you want, and don't use anything you don't want.

Don't treat these things as gospel. They are yours. Make the game what you want it to be. Don't be afraid to alter what's in there.

Don't use any rule if you don't understand why it is in the game. (that goes for any game, but AD&D is 100,000s of words and really may be too much to bite off if you're just starting to account for every rule).

Make it easy for yourself. If you understand why a rule is in place, and you want to keep it, find out if you can parse it down to an even smaller phrasing and design so it is easier for you in practice. Then memorize. Lots of stuff in those books is great, but it has to work for you.

Don't ever make more than you will pragmatically need for your next session. When prepping for the start of a campaign or the next session of your years long campaign - follow this rule. The material you and your players create will grow. You don't need to overbuild only to end up cutting yourself off or hampering your players from adding to the world through play either.

Listen to your players and ask them what they want. They want a haunted house? Put it in the world. They want a political and romantic entanglement? Put it in the game. However...

Don't tell the players where to go or what to do. They are in your world, but they are not there to follow your script. Let them take the initiative, but build the fantasy to satisfy wherever they go. Stasis and uniformity are dull. Remember, the best worlds are dynamic and react to the players as well as have initiating intelligences in them too.

Listen to and talk to other DMs, but don't let them determine for you how you will run your game. (I imagine you see the irony in this) This isn't a DMing contest. It isn't about being the best. Strive for your best and you'll get better. Nor is the game about besting your players either. It isn't even about putting on a show for the players to watch. You reliably provide the world to explore, your players will provide you with the entertainment.

Customize and encourage your players to do so too. In other words, don't be afraid to be idiosyncratic. Those personalized details that make your game yours are irreplaceable. I've seen hand drawn DM screens, self painted and molded miniatures, and even kids gluing their toys on plastic bases. Let them have their fun and bring yours to share too.

Be prepared and bring your enthusiasm. It's one thing to have confidently prepped for your session; It's another to be in the right frame of mind, body and spirit to run it. Get your attitude about you and let your excitement come through. It will help the game even though you are the reactor behind the screen and the players the initiators. Expressing your enthusiasm will draw theirs out too.

Practice, practice, practice your imagination. This is an imagination game and imagination is the most important ability you bring to it. That means a good memory, strength of mind, fluidity of thought, and a full feel for what is happening in the imaginary world at all times during play. This is in no way easy, but playing will push you in all these things (if these things matter in the game you play in). However, as a DM you will be the one accounting for all aspects of the game world first, before the players have a chance to interpret. Remember, the notes and maps behind the screen are all aids, but you need to know and have reviewed the material before each session to really be able to envision the whole while you play. While the game is going it may run fast and furiously, so looking things up will only serve to slow it down and drop the pace the players are setting. Be ready and practice, practice, practice. :) (i.e. play lots of RPGs)

That's about all I can think of right now. There's plenty more. Read AD&D's section on successful adventures in the PHB. Not every point is good, but most of it gold.