TheRPGSite

Dear Forum,

In a previous threat I posted that I am planning to run a song of ice and fire campaign. I bought the official green ronin ruleset for that, but I am hesitating to actually use it.
Just recently I played "savage worlds" and I had a look at the "dungeonslayers" rules which are both VERY simple rulesets. Those systems got me hooked. Their focus is on the actual gameplay not so much in the rules. Still they are a bit too limited for my taste (or use too many different dice - grrrrr!)
I want my players to start right off and get the right feeling for both their characters and the rules.

Do you know an easy to handle system, which uses just a few attributes and still fits the world of westeros? Or would you say that the green ronin system is already simple enough? To me the attributes seem to come a bit random...

On the one hand the system should be dimple enough to be explained in 15 minutes, still it should also allow to the players to give their characters enough depth.
Maybe I am asking for too much. The rules if ASOIAF are pretty simple already...
I know that this threat sounds like asking for the holy grail of gaming - I know! Still I would be happy for your suggestions! I'd also be happy if you explain to me why I can't have both, because at the moment I want to have both. ;)
is there a system which combines both simplicity and depth at the same time?

Let us know when you capture this elusive unicorn! :cool:

If you find a system that is 90% good for you and your players, you win.

For a "rules medium" dysyem that can handle domain-management shenanigans, I can think of three options:

1. Any edition of TSR/OSR D&D (suitably modded into a more Westerosi experience) with Sine Nomine's An Echo, Resounding supplement.

2. Openquest (the rules-lighter BRP fantasy game) with MRQII Empires

3. Greg Stolze's Reign

I liked the SoIaF House Management, especially with all the Chronicles additions.  It was kind of a little abstracted minigame but it worked, essentially the House had its own character sheet and special abilities.

Leaving that behind, there's nothing really to replace it.  Harnmaster has Harnmanor, but you're probably not going to use Harnmaster.  Any d100 system could probably be used with MRQII Empires, and there's Adventurer, Conqueror, King which is a B/X variant with Harnmanor like rules.

Suggestions:
1. Use whatever RPG system you want and hack in SoIaF/Chronicles House Management.

2. If Savage Worlds is too limited, I'd suggest Mythras.  Why?

• There is a Free version, Mythras Imperative.
• It's like Savage Worlds in that is really a toolkit allowing you to dial things up or down, but the difference is is starts from a more in-depth skill set and character generation that really ties you into your culture.  Never had a player come out of Mythras Chargen without a good sense of the character, and several hooks to go on.
• d100 based, doesn't get simpler than that.
• The Combat system is going to be perfect for all the duels your characters are going to get in. :D
• The various rules for Cults work great for all the religions and orders across the West and East.
• It has expansions for Mythic Britain and Mythic Rome (the less fantastical magic skills from Mythic Rome might be great for Westeros).
• If you feel D&Dish, it has an expansion for Classic Fantasy as well.
• It has lots of magical systems that can be fine-tuned (magic isn't a huge deal in GoT anyway).  If you wanted to go with slightly higher magic, Animists could come into play for Wildlings and Children of the Forest, Mystics are perfect for the Faceless men, the Undying of Asshai could be actual Sorcerers, and if you really limit the spell list, Theists actually work great for the Red Priests(although you could argue Sorcery might be better, or even Animism to summon a spirit and bind it into it's own dead body).
• That's the thing with Mythras, the different magics might allow you to do similar things, but in different ways, so you can make something fit your setting better.  With Savage Worlds it's all the same spell lists, just with different lipsticks.
• It's compatible with anything from Mongoose Runequest II/Legend or in a broader sense anything BRP/CoC/d100
• The selling point though for Mythras is the Combat System.  It does small scale duels/fights better, with or without miniatures, than any system out there, gives players lots of combat effects to use, has no major armor/weapon skill loopholes to exploit like SoIaF and even has a Ships & Shield Walls supplement for when the Ironborn come raiding.
• There's a great user-built webtool that has hundreds of pre-built templates to randomly create NPCs and you can make your own lists and save them, great for churning out stats for Goldcloaks, Crows, bandits, you name it.
• It does have MRQII Empires, but you could also hack in the SoIaF House system.

3. If you like a D&D system, I'd recommend ACKS (Adventurer, Conqueror, King) system. Why?

• It's based on B/X D&D, but adds proficiencies in a way that are much more satisfying than old school secondary skills yet aren't the monstrosity of Skills/Feats of full blown 3e.
• It's Race as Class, which works great since you only really have one race anyway, so Westerosi Knight, Dothraki Warrior, Bravosi Water Dancer, Dornish Spearman, Ironborn Raider, Sand Snake, are all possible classes you can make from whole cloth, or they can all be different templates of Fighter. Making Red Priests, Children of the Forest, Wildling Wargs, etc, would be easy. A brilliant class design toolkit.
• Customizable.  In the Player's Companion, they give you the tools and formulas they used to make all the classes, spells and special abilities, so you don't like what they have, make your own.
• Combat is D&D combat, but, it does have Mortal Wounds, which makes combat more lasting and deadly than standard D&D which works well with GoT.
• The average ACKS forum-goer is a tinkerer who likes to fuss about campaign details, so there's lots of good stuff on their site.
• Domain Management - This is the big selling point here, this is what it's all about.  Take the old B/X high level postgame and combine it with something like Harnmanor to give it more medieval focus and accuracy.
• War - it has it's own wargame system that you can play at different levels large army, small unit, and...what a lot of games miss, the man-to-man skirmish level where characters can actually make a difference.  Man-to-man skirmish of course is where Savage Worlds shines as it is really a skirmish wargame for a more detailed RPG system, Deadlands, that eventually became a RPG in it's own right.  ACKS is the only system out that that comes anywhere close to matching Savage Worlds ease of play when you have 20-30 on a side and want PCs to have relatively full access to their abilities.

4. Harnmaster
Ok, it's on the heavier side of "Rules Medium", but...

• It's made for a quasi-medieval world with relatively lower levels of magic.
• Detailed character generation.
• Detailed and deadly combat system.
• Battlelust, a full-blown wargame with plugins for HM stats.
• The most detailed medieval manor rules out there.
• One of the most complete price lists in existence.
• A few very robust and mature websites like lythia.com with years of discussion.

If you're going to mention D&D, and D100 stuff, you might as well mention GURPS. None of which are focused on the actual gameplay. I expect every RPG under to the Sun to be listed in this thread now, just like what happened in all the other threads before it.

Well, there's always this: http://story-games.com/forums/discussion/17412/a-world-of-ice-and-fire-an-apocalypse-world-hack (http://story-games.com/forums/discussion/17412/a-world-of-ice-and-fire-an-apocalypse-world-hack)

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;933724If you're going to mention D&D, and D100 stuff, you might as well mention GURPS. None of which are focused on the actual gameplay. I expect every RPG under to the Sun to be listed in this thread now, just like what happened in all the other threads before it.

What's your suggestion then, genius?
The OP asked for suggestions, without exclusions.
I gave several, with very detailed explanations as to why those systems would help fit the Game of Thrones setting specifically.
Not focused on the actual gameplay?  I broke down exactly what elements of gameplay the different suggested systems support.

Try more Midol.

Quote from: cranebump;933725Well, there's always this: http://story-games.com/forums/discussion/17412/a-world-of-ice-and-fire-an-apocalypse-world-hack (http://story-games.com/forums/discussion/17412/a-world-of-ice-and-fire-an-apocalypse-world-hack)

Eh, if he wants to go story, might as well stick with SoIaF, rely on the social combat rules and just deal with the melee combat problems.  There's lots of suggestions on the GR site for dealing with the combat issues, even if they're not perfect.  GoT is the one setting where the Sex Moves actually make sense. :D

Thinking outside the box...

5. Pendragon

• Has a system of Virtues that, if your players dig that kind of thing, might be good for representing the various clashes between the Houses, the Nobles and Smallfolk, the main religions, etc...  You might want to hack them a tad, but what is supposed to be an upstanding perfect Knight in Westeros isn't too far off from Pendragon.
• Low-Magic, as a result Combat/Wounds are more deadly.
• Similar to d100, but actually d20.
• Very detailed Tournament Rules.
• Has a lot of expansions, including some for Domains and lands, but I don't have experience with those.

I bought a copy of the GoT core rulebook because a friend said that there were rules for intrigue which were very good, but in my read-over I never found anything that inspired me any more than a dozen other RPG's out there and I decided not to bother to learn a new game system. As folks have noted already, the answer to your question is highly based on your personal style of play and you'll probably get a zillion posters each with their own personal favorites. In spite of that, I will toss a couple out there myself.

1) I like the notion of one of the D&D family of games. OD&D/AD&D/C&C all can fit almost any style of game play and can be gritty enough that it can give the Westros feel. I would hesitate to move to the newer D&D editions because those are more player power driven and I don't think that fits Game of Thrones very well, but the older ones in particular tend to make survival less certain and this seems more like the style of the books. Castles & Crusades fits well because of the modern mechanics but older feel, and characters there aren't overpowered most of the time.

2) I haven't played much Pendragon, but I like the notion. Pendragon is (obviously) based on knights and such, and has some rules for generational play. That could fit in well with a GoT campaign. Another advantage to Pendragon is that it is mostly compatible with other BRP style games, so if you wanted to put in more magic or sanity or other tweaks someone has already done much of the heavy lifting and you don't need to re-invent the wheel.

Good luck, and let us know what you decide. :D

Quote from: finarvyn;933736I bought a copy of the GoT core rulebook because a friend said that there were rules for intrigue which were very good, but in my read-over I never found anything that inspired me any more than a dozen other RPG's out there and I decided not to bother to learn a new game system.

   Just as a side note, were you sure the two of you were talking about the same game? :) There have been two different RPGs--the Game of Thrones game that Guardians of Order put out just before they went under, and the Song of Ice and Fire one currently being produced by Green Ronin. I have no familiarity with either of them, and no interest in Westeros

• , but I just want to be sure everyone's on the same page here.

 
• Aside from a certain sympathy for fans of the books in the wake of the election. If Bush's re-election in 2004 left Martin so shaken that he had to take an entire year off, I expect the election of Trump has killed any hope of him ever finishing the series. ;)

Quote from: MES;933708Dear Forum,

In a previous threat I posted that I am planning to run a song of ice and fire campaign. I bought the official green ronin ruleset for that, but I am hesitating to actually use it.
Just recently I played "savage worlds" and I had a look at the "dungeonslayers" rules which are both VERY simple rulesets. Those systems got me hooked. Their focus is on the actual gameplay not so much in the rules. Still they are a bit too limited for my taste (or use too many different dice - grrrrr!)
I want my players to start right off and get the right feeling for both their characters and the rules.

Do you know an easy to handle system, which uses just a few attributes and still fits the world of westeros? Or would you say that the green ronin system is already simple enough? To me the attributes seem to come a bit random...

On the one hand the system should be dimple enough to be explained in 15 minutes, still it should also allow to the players to give their characters enough depth.
Maybe I am asking for too much. The rules if ASOIAF are pretty simple already...
I know that this threat sounds like asking for the holy grail of gaming - I know! Still I would be happy for your suggestions! I'd also be happy if you explain to me why I can't have both, because at the moment I want to have both. ;)
is there a system which combines both simplicity and depth at the same time?

Low Fantasy Gaming RPG is what you want, friend! Free PDF in my sig (or print via Lulu). d20 OGL variant, low magic, rules lite but plenty of room for customization.

If I wanted what you want, I would use The Fantasy Trip, or if I wanted even more simplicity, Legends of the Ancient World from Dark City Games (which is TFT with less rules, but I think TFT already has few enough rules, and they're very carefully written and it plays very well).

TFT very nicely fits GoT with its lethal tactical combat and opportunities for tactics.

Quote from: CRKrueger;933721Mythras

ACKS (Adventurer, Conqueror, King) system

These are my favorite fantasy RPGs right now (Mythras + MRQII Empires would be my pick for ASoIaF) but I felt they might be a tad crunchier than the OP may be looking for.

Quote from: CRKrueger;933727What's your suggestion then, genius?

Jesus, is this guy still around? I've had him on ignore for a while. Does he even game? I mean, with people?

Id go with BX D&D. Its pretty darn easy to explain and has for me a good balance of rules for specifics and then rules for generalities. Its also lower powered on the magic scale and easy to tweak to fit certain ideals.

For even simpler then there is TFT as someone mentioned above and its knockoff the "Legends Of" series of games. Possibly too skeletal. The DM will need to come up with stuff to fill the gaps. But the skeleton presented gives you enough to build on. Moreso if you have the actual ITL RPG rather than just the board game.

Quote from: MES;933708Dear Forum,

In a previous threat I posted that I am planning to run a song of ice and fire campaign. I bought the official green ronin ruleset for that, but I am hesitating to actually use it.
Just recently I played "savage worlds" and I had a look at the "dungeonslayers" rules which are both VERY simple rulesets. Those systems got me hooked. Their focus is on the actual gameplay not so much in the rules. Still they are a bit too limited for my taste (or use too many different dice - grrrrr!)
I want my players to start right off and get the right feeling for both their characters and the rules.

Do you know an easy to handle system, which uses just a few attributes and still fits the world of westeros? Or would you say that the green ronin system is already simple enough? To me the attributes seem to come a bit random...

On the one hand the system should be dimple enough to be explained in 15 minutes, still it should also allow to the players to give their characters enough depth.
Maybe I am asking for too much. The rules if ASOIAF are pretty simple already...
I know that this threat sounds like asking for the holy grail of gaming - I know! Still I would be happy for your suggestions! I'd also be happy if you explain to me why I can't have both, because at the moment I want to have both. ;)
is there a system which combines both simplicity and depth at the same time?

Why don't you try out the default game first ? You already paid some bucks for it. Might as well put some faith on the authors. Who knows, maybe you like it. And even if you don't, you will probably know the whys enough to modify it in ways that better fit your goals.

Other than that, nice suggestions already in the thread. I will second ACKS and Pendragon for rules on domain management, and will add Hillfolk for insights on how to do interesting inter-personal drama as seen on GoT series. :)

Found this too. Looks helpful for your goals. :)

http://triplecrit.com/5-tips-writing-social-drama-rpg-campaigns/ (http://triplecrit.com/5-tips-writing-social-drama-rpg-campaigns/)

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;933743Just as a side note, were you sure the two of you were talking about the same game? :) There have been two different RPGs--the Game of Thrones game that Guardians of Order put out just before they went under, and the Song of Ice and Fire one currently being produced by Green Ronin. I have no familiarity with either of them, and no interest in Westeros

• , but I just want to be sure everyone's on the same page here.

A good point. I am actually slightly familiar with both games but was talking about the newer one rather than the older (d20) version. The d20 version would be faster to pick up since it has so many elements which are familiar to me through D&D play, and the size of the rulebook is such that it would make an excellent weapon in a melee battle.

Quote from: Psikerlord;933829Low Fantasy Gaming RPG is what you want, friend! Free PDF in my sig (or print via Lulu). d20 OGL variant, low magic, rules lite but plenty of room for customization.

I ran into LFGR at about the same time as Crypts and Things Remastered.  There's a lot of overlapping ideas between the two games, and I like them both a lot.  I recommend the poster checks out C&T also for a lightweight FRPG.  If nothing else, it comes with a great and gritty Appendix N setting.

Quote from: The Butcher;933884These are my favorite fantasy RPGs right now (Mythras + MRQII Empires would be my pick for ASoIaF) but I felt they might be a tad crunchier than the OP may be looking for.

Jesus, is this guy still around? I've had him on ignore for a while. Does he even game? I mean, with people?

Give CRKrueger credit where it is due. He posted very complete answers, with reasons why he put each game on the list. You might disagree, but at least you have something to disagree with, instead of just a list of (1d6) game names.

Quote from: Skarg;933855If I wanted what you want, I would use The Fantasy Trip, or if I wanted even more simplicity, Legends of the Ancient World from Dark City Games (which is TFT with less rules, but I think TFT already has few enough rules, and they're very carefully written and it plays very well).

TFT very nicely fits GoT with its lethal tactical combat and opportunities for tactics.

Skarg beat me to it.  I second these recommendations.  The rule sets, to me, also have the right feel.

I think you want to avoid a class based system unless you invent new ones for your game.  Basically you only have fighters and thieves in Westros with very, very limited magic.  D&D classes just are too few and don't capture differences in major character iconic types in the books.  A light skill based system will.  Also spell casting in TFT requires you to buy each spell as a skill..   This means spell casters have few spells, AND using them weakens them, again more like Westros.

Quote from: MES;933708
is there a system which combines both simplicity and depth at the same time?

I used DwD Studios BareBones Fantasy to introduce a friend to RPGs. It uses 2 d10s, that's it. I was looking for a rules lite game, and the rules are pretty much: roll under the skill or attribute percentile that is on your character sheet.

Here's a really good review of it http://chaosgrenade.com/2013/05/22/hands-on-review-barebones-fantasy/

Not sure if it fits the world you are looking at, as I read it so long ago I cannot remember it, but the review is pretty comprehensive.

Quote from: CRKrueger;933728Eh, if he wants to go story, might as well stick with SoIaF, rely on the social combat rules and just deal with the melee combat problems.  There's lots of suggestions on the GR site for dealing with the combat issues, even if they're not perfect.  GoT is the one setting where the Sex Moves actually make sense. :D

That's the "Game of Titties" version in the early TV series.:-)

I'd recommend the Appendix P rules in Dark Albion, except that you still need to have some edition of D&D to use it, just for the spells (I didn't think it was worth adding dozens of pages of material most OSR gamers have already).  

Of course, if the little project I'm working on right now sees the light of day, there's going to be a version which won't use D&D spells at all...

Quote from: Psikerlord;933829Low Fantasy Gaming RPG is what you want, friend!

You beat Zweihander to the pimping!! :)

I think the Wuthering Heights RPG would be fantastic for Game of Thrones...

How about the Fate Freeport companion and Fate Core system, D&D on the lite side, story driven with all involved, you can mimic any fantasy TV show with it in little time. Easy conversion to D&D because it uses the six statistics of basic D&D as skills.

We really enjoyed Savage Worlds.

One of our DMs also picked up The White Hack, which is very much a 'create-as-you-go-' approach. We made up our spells on the fly, which was a nice change from a distinct list of spells with specific limitations and standards to follow.

Quote from: CRKrueger;933727What's your suggestion then, genius?
The OP asked for suggestions, without exclusions.
I gave several, with very detailed explanations as to why those systems would help fit the Game of Thrones setting specifically.
Not focused on the actual gameplay?  I broke down exactly what elements of gameplay the different suggested systems support.

Try more Midol.

I for one am glad you mentioned Mythras Imperative. I grew up with Stormbringer and Elric!, I ran a one shot with Legend, so I'm curious to see how Mythras is different.
The only thing I cannot stand in D100 systems I've played are the expansive lists of Skills. It gets overwhelming for new players so I was glad to see the limited list on the Mythras character sheet.

Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;960718I for one am glad you mentioned Mythras Imperative. I grew up with Stormbringer and Elric!, I ran a one shot with Legend, so I'm curious to see how Mythras is different.
The only thing I cannot stand in D100 systems I've played are the expansive lists of Skills. It gets overwhelming for new players so I was glad to see the limited list on the Mythras character sheet.

I am reading Revolution D100 right now. Doesn't appear to be a "simple" game but it does use a unique blend of numeric skills and binary traits. A skill might be athletics while a trait might be fast runner. The great thing is it only uses 15 skills. You might want to check it out!

Quote from: CanBeOnlyOne;961066I am reading Revolution D100 right now. Doesn't appear to be a "simple" game but it does use a unique blend of numeric skills and binary traits. A skill might be athletics while a trait might be fast runner. The great thing is it only uses 15 skills. You might want to check it out!

Revolution d100 has the advantage of including a lot more storygame logic, so extended Social Conflicts using that system would be useful if you were looking for that sort of thing.  Mythras stuff would be more organic, with different social structures the PCs could belong to using the Cult rules, and using Passions to influence the social stuff and conflicting loyalties/beliefs, more like Pendragon.

I'm going to echo CRK's Mythras recommendations for Mythras and Pendragon. When I read the OP those were the two that came to mind. SW isn't bad either, but you have to get the intents in that system, or you might get frustrated with it (there's a stronger "game" function to SW which works, but can irritate some groups).

You could also look at Palladium Fantasy - it's a decent AD&D hack, and you can run it from the base book. Also, you may want to look at the 1st edition over the 2nd. The 2nd is much more in line with modern Palladium releases, but 1st has some advantages. I'd suggest checking them both out before you decide which one to use, personally I lean towards liking 1st a lot more, and think the addition of SDC did a lot of damage to the game (slowed combat down a lot).

Quote from: CRKrueger;961070Revolution d100 has the advantage of including a lot more storygame logic, so extended Social Conflicts using that system would be useful if you were looking for that sort of thing.  Mythras stuff would be more organic, with different social structures the PCs could belong to using the Cult rules, and using Passions to influence the social stuff and conflicting loyalties/beliefs, more like Pendragon.

I really like the Conflicts rules in Rd100. They don't feel too "story gamey" to me, but remind me a lot of things like the extended skill tests in D&D 4e. I'm planning to use them a lot for things like extended wilderness and dungeon exploration though, not just social contests.

Rd100 is really pretty awesome. I also recently read something where the designer of Rd100 built the game so that the combat system from OpenQuest could be dropped in to replace the two systems in Rd100. Essentially "Basic" combat is super basic, "Advanced Combat" is a tick down from Mythras, and the Combat system from OpenQuest fits right in-between Basic and Advanced. And since they're all completely compatible, if you wanted something even more complex, you could just bolt on the Mythras combat rules.