TheRPGSite

This is the news I just got at the big RPGA meeting at GenCon tonight.

I'm a bit disappointed at this. I've had a great time with LG over the last two years, starting with Winter Fantasy 2006. Yes, that was my very first Living Greyhawk experience.

It will be replaced by Living Realms.

The crowd was not at all pleased, really, but I did note a few girls who seemed very excited by the return of the Forgotten Realms as a setting.

Now, I'm not fan of the Realms in general. There's just a bit too much romance in the setting, and there are too many powerful, good-aligned NPCs for my liking. I think this can be fixed, and the guy at the big RPGA meeting seemed to hint at a reboot. The other promise made was somehow getting the Realms "novel team" and D&D R&D involved in writing some of the Living Realms adventures. so adventures would be tied to novels and (perhaps?) novels might be based on the adventures.

Which I have an ambivalent feeling for. On the one hand, cool, it means good writers. The way I do Living Adventures and Xendrik now is I note the authors and I note who the real great great authors are. (P.s. The good adventures are written by a guy named Greg Marks and another guy named Brian Mackey. Those guys kick ass. ).

On the other hand, I fucking hate Forgotten Realms novels. Drizzle d'oodle or whatever. I don't get it. I also am not interested in 1000 years of backstory and continuity or whatever they have. I like the Greyhawk deities. I like the Greyhawk style of outer planes. I don't want to re-do all that crap.

So that's that.

But I *do* like certain things about FR, it's a far more cosmopolitan a setting than Greyhawk, and a nice middle ground between the the staid nature of Greyhawk and the prismatic rainbow of Eberron.

I would like to see a D&D that seems modern and still remains D&D. Not Eberron. Eberron isn't it. And FR isn't it. It's still a bunch of guys walking around in their renfair costumes. My home campiagns are modernized and totally core D&D. This could be done with FR, I think. Maybe not.  

But it could be modernized.

At the delve they are auctioning off the Greyhawk shields. My own region (Geoff) has never been kind of me. When I was playing a Suel, I encountered prejudice from an anti-suel plotline they had going. When I played a gnome, I got a lot of anti-gnome crap. So now I'm playing a kobold, which apparently is making some people crazy. :)

But even if Geoff let me down, I'm not letting them down. I talked to one of my triad members and helped kinda organize an effort to get multiple region members to do the delve and contribute their tickets to getting our shield. We need 200 tokens (eahc run of the Delve nets between 1 and 5 tokens), and I've contributed around 30 or so. My friends have kicked in another 30 or so. I ran into some other Geoff players that got involved. We have around 165 at last count.

We're going to bring home the shield.  


Well, anyhow, that's my take. I want to think this thing could be cool, but I guess we'll see.

QuoteIt will be replaced by Living Realms.

Wow.  That's a big change.  Canada has the Ket region of Greyhawk, so everything is Sinbad / Aladdin here.

I'd personally prefer something a bit more European-Medieval, but a lot of people (including the guy running the local game) are really into how non-standard the Ket region is.

Quote from: StuartWow.  That's a big change.  Canada has the Ket region of Greyhawk, so everything is Sinbad / Aladdin here.

I'd personally prefer something a bit more European-Medieval, but a lot of people (including the guy running the local game) are really into how non-standard the Ket region is.

I'd go to Ket any day!
My kobold character (I now have two kobolds..both dragonwrought coppers) is kind of my "screw you, Geoff" thing. ;)

Wow.  Just. Wow.

I'm actually quite surprised. What seems weird is i can't seem to find an answer as to whether or not it really is coming back in 4e.  I've seen things that say it will be Living Realms instead; others that say LG will restart..

Know anything AM?

I'll be disappointed.  I was looking forward to buying the greyhawk campaign book.  now I don't know if I can justify it if it's 3.5 rules...rules that will be outdated in 6 moths for a campaign that will be dead in 12...

Who had this bright idea?

RPGA sent out an email, reposted here: http://trueanimehero.livejournal.com/90470.html

Living Greyhawk is ending...

QuoteLiving Greyhawk has been the face of organized play for the 3rd
Edition D&D game. Tremendously successful, thousands participate
worldwide in the biggest shared-world D&D game anywhere. LG hasbeen
around since the beginning of 3rd Edition, and it will last to the
end of the 3rd Edition product line. Starting with a two-round
special at D&D Experience 2008 (February 28 – March 2), thecampaign
will begin its final story arc – a series of core adventures that
will build into the climactic two-round finale at Origins 2008. We're
pulling out all the stops in these final adventures – no major NPC is
off-limits, and you're really going to be a part of the most world-
affecting story arc we've ever done. We're getting some of the best
authors to ever write for Living Greyhawk to help with these
adventures – what the Circle has planned is nothing short of amazing.
While the campaign concludes at Origins next year, it is our
sincerest desire to provide you an epic conclusion to the campaign we
all love so much.

I know you want more specifics, now that the cat's out of the bag.
Regions will have up to 6 adventures next year – all of them will
premiere no later than June 30, 2008. Metaregions will have 4
adventures next year, with the same premiere deadline. All adventures
released in 2007 and 2008 will be playable until December 31, 2008.
We're also looking at increasing play opportunities for your
characters in 2008 so they have a better chance of reaching the goals
you've set for them. The two specials next year – the first and last
adventures in the final core story arc – will be available for all
conventions soon after they premiere at their respective shows. Many
more players will be able to enjoy all of the final adventures for
Living Greyhawk, as the specials come to their local shows.

More information on Living Greyhawk's conclusion will become
available in the next few weeks on the website.

Living Realms is starting...

QuoteAt D&D Experience 2008, you'll be able to get your first full-onplay
of D&D 4th Edition in its final form. This will come in the form of
preview adventures for the next Living campaign – Living Forgotten
Realms! The most popular campaign setting for D&D finally gets its
turn as a regionalized Living campaign. If you like the system for
Living Greyhawk, you'll love what we have in store with Living
Forgotten Realms: more play opportunities for the average gamer,
fully supported online and offline play, and a greater shared-world
experience than we've ever done before with a Living campaign. Living
Forgotten Realms will be the first truly global Living campaign.

James: There is no Living Greyhawk or even Greyhawk book that is at all current. Aside from the ruins of Greyhawk Castle adventure.

QuoteThe other promise made was somehow getting the Realms "novel team" and D&D R&D involved in writing some of the Living Realms adventures. so adventures would be tied to novels and (perhaps?) novels might be based on the adventures.

Now, wait just a damn minute.  Isn't inheriting a host of retarded Mary Sues and GMPCs from the novels the whole goddamn problem with the Realms in the first place?  How the fuck is this helping anything?

My bad - I was referring to the 224 Super adventure.

My point still stands.  Buying stuff that will be dead in 9 months?

I'm thinking that I'd be better off starting a web-site to support all of the folks that will want to stick with 3.5 rules.  Hmmm...

Yea, I don't know if I could play in a living realms campaign.  One of the problems with the Living structure is that it's very hard to avoid the railroad syndrome.  I didn't play a lot of LG (not for alck of wanting to get involved), but what I did play, it was pretty good at avoiding this.  Though it wasn't that you could avoid it, more like you understood it and the results of your particulal session were reflected in your character's development.

One of the problems with the realms, after reading the campaign book and being familiar with it from the old days is the much greater sense of railroading to fit the plots of the books.  That, and the fact that your characters always seemed to be the red-shirts for the NPC's doing all the heavy lifting.

That was then..but given recent events, I'm not too optimistic about the this is now part.

Man does this feel like going from 1st to 2nd edition all over again.  Which, of course, was when I dropped out of gaming for a while...

I've always much preferred Greyhawk to FR.  But I'm not much into organized play these days, so not much should change for me as far as that.

So what, is 4e going to have the Greyhawk implied setting and FR OP? :confused:

Something about all the settings being sort of blended.  Mordenkainen + Thor + War Forged...

Quote from: StuartSomething about all the settings being sort of blended.  Mordenkainen + Thor + War Forged...

Huh.

From the hints I've seen dropped, 4e might not even have Greyhawk as the implied setting.  And on this, I've got a theory...

Combined with the success of darker settings is the idea that perhaps, once and for all, they can get rid of Greyhawk. Take the opportunity of 4e and a decent run of LG to end both 3.X and LG.  Don't use Greyhawk as the implied setting either.

It's a clean break.  The last vestiges of Gygax, from Vancian magic (which seems will be nothing more than a nod to the concept - not that I love vancian magic), Greyhawk, anything. This is it. This is no longer his game in any way.

I don't know if I'm getting to be an old grognard or what, but I do sense the hobby moving away from me.  I think I will end up playing OOP versions of D&D, either 1st or 3rd, while the kids use that intraweb thingie and some slick non-crunch system that's more "cinematic" in nature.

Quote from: Zachary The FirstI've always much preferred Greyhawk to FR.  But I'm not much into organized play these days, so not much should change for me as far as that.

So what, is 4e going to have the Greyhawk implied setting and FR OP? :confused:

I'm confused about this as well. And I'm also bugged by the Mary Sue-ification of how it all works.

Bottom line: The Forgotten Realms is a tedious and romanticized take on the bad-ass fantasy I like so much (the oft-derided Dungeonpunk is what I love about fantasy). I tend to associate almost everything bad about 2nd Edition with FR.

But I'm still going to wait and see.

QuoteGreyhawk will not be default setting in core. We want to leverage the assets of the assumed parts of a D&D world – Mordenkainen, Bigby, Vecna, Llolth, Tiamat, Asmodeus, etc. However, we also want to call upon the great mythology that is more commonly known such as Thor, etc.

Plus Changelings from Ebberon are (probably) Core.  I think Warforged was mentioned as under consideration too.

Quote from: Abyssal MawBut I'm still going to wait and see.

As much Sturm und Drang as we're seeing, that's really all we can do.  It'll all come around, one way or another.  But I am terribly fond of Greyhawk.

The thing that irks me about Greyhawk is the ownership.  C'mon guys, shit or get off the pot.  If you're not going to do something with it (I mean, it won't even be your implied fucking setting anymore), then let some starry-eyed kid with a dream and lots of free time make it a labor of love that the rest of us can enjoy.

But no, we'll just pack it up in this crate over here and tell you we've got out top people working on it...if we bother to say anything at all...

Quote from: Abyssal MawAnd I'm also bugged by the Mary Sue-ification of how it all works.

AMen, brother.

Quote from: Abyssal MawBottom line: The Forgotten Realms is a tedious and romanticized take...I tend to associate almost everything bad about 2nd Edition with FR.

Go try and read a module - like Shadowdale (I think, it's downstairs and I'm too lazy to go look).  Talk about railroading...

Quote from: Abyssal MawBut I'm still going to wait and see.

I'll take alook at the new rules, but I'm not so sure I'll be doing much in the interim. Like I said, maybe it's better to start looking at finding ways to support a burgeoning 3.5 market - including a setting like Greyhawk.

Quote from: James J SkachThe thing that irks me about Greyhawk is the ownership.  C'mon guys, shit or get off the pot.  If you're not going to do something with it (I mean, it won't even be your implied fucking setting anymore), then let some starry-eyed kid with a dream and lots of free time make it a labor of love that the rest of us can enjoy.

But no, we'll just pack it up in this crate over here and tell you we've got out top people working on it...if we bother to say anything at all...

I would LOVE to see Greyhawk get some sort of deal like Planescape or Athas, but I sincerely doubt that'd ever happen.  Greyhawk's got too much for them to just let 'er go like that.

Tell you what, were I a Gentlemen of Considerably Independent Means, I'd love to have the rights to Greyhawk.

Quote from: Zachary The FirstI would LOVE to see Greyhawk get some sort of deal like Planescape or Athas, but I sincerely doubt that'd ever happen.  Greyhawk's got too much for them to just let 'er go like that.

Tell you what, were I a Gentlemen of Considerably Independent Means, I'd love to have the rights to Greyhawk.

If I were the one to give it, I would.

I'm going to make Silverosprey.

This will refer to a city near the Dery Veep, a lake of unknown depths and much trade. It will be so big there will be a ehtnicity of folks who live on barges that ply the waters.

There will be a half-demon overlord name Scuz who will rule a barren land to the north.

Quote from: James J SkachIf I were the one to give it, I would.

I'm going to make Silverosprey.

This will refer to a city near the Dery Veep, a lake of unknown depths and much trade. It will be so big there will be a ehtnicity of folks who live on barges that ply the waters.

There will be a half-demon overlord name Scuz who will rule a barren land to the north.

:haw:

Trust me, that's just off the top of my (pointy) head.

And if done right, I'd call it a parody and hide under fair use - seeing as how I wouldn't be charging for using it as a Living Campaign (or home campaigns, etc.)

Quote from: James J SkachTrust me, that's just off the top of my (pointy) head.

And if done right, I'd call it a parody and hide under fair use - seeing as how I wouldn't be charging for using it as a Living Campaign (or home campaigns, etc.)

You're allowed to profit off of parodies. :haw:

Quote from: Abyssal MawThe other promise made was somehow getting the Realms "novel team" and D&D R&D involved in writing some of the Living Realms adventures. so adventures would be tied to novels and (perhaps?) novels might be based on the adventures.

So where are the Swine War types crying about the invasion of metaplot into "real" gaming?[/snark]

Seriously, my tastes in D&D gaming seem to mirror Abyssal Maw's (I dig modernized, "dungeonpunk" stuff as long as it's not too OTT), but I actually like Realms... because I can take all the drippy shit from the novels, fire it into the sun, and make the setting my own.  I don't know how I'd feel about LFR, though.

My real question: does this mean we might see a rebooted Greyhawk CS hardback divorced from the Living concept?  God I hope so!

KoOS

So.

The Realms will be the new Living campaign, and the first 4E setting book. Meanwhile, there's talk of Warforged as core class. But then, so there is of Tieflings. On the fourth hand, the 4e art out there looks vaguely late 2E-ish.

You know what would KINDA NICE?

It would be kinda nice if WOTC put somebody on the design team, in a senior position, who's not just a mechanics monkey who's pixelbitching about CRs.

Because it seems to me the Big Picture needs some urgent attending to, seeing as it's clear as mud what 4E thinks its setting, its mood, and its visual concept is: the Realms, Eberron, Planescape, Midnight ("points of light in a world of darkness," or how did BS put it)...

a thousand points of light?

I like the Realms as setting, hate the realms as metaplot, and DESPISE the fucking novels.

So I can't imagine that this current plan will do anything good for the realms.  Fortunately, there's already two really excellent versions of the realms in print (the FR of the 1e box set, and the FR of the 3rd edition book, which are two very different worlds).  Plus there's also the FR of Ed Greenwood, the original one, that isn't like any of the published ones (its much, much better).

RPGPundit

Ed Greenwood is a really interesting guy.  His own take on FR would probably make Bradford Walker's "Joe Gamer" spontaneously combust!

KoOS

Should have thought of this earlier...

"We want to leverage the assets of the assumed parts of a D&D world – Mordenkainen, Bigby, Vecna, Llolth, Tiamat, Asmodeus, etc. However, we also want to call upon the great mythology that is more commonly known such as Thor, etc."

In other words: "we don't really want to use this stuff... but we don't want to lose our corporate assets either.  And we want to keep you know who from getting this stuff back again..."

Don't forget kids - trademarks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark) remain valid as long as the owner actively uses and defends them and maintains their registrations with the applicable jurisdiction's trademarks office!

My knee-jerk reaction was, "Well, Greyhawk fans should be used to being supplanted and booted out by Forgotten Realms by now.  It's only happened how many times before?"

I grew up with Greyhawk, so I'm biased.  I want to like Forgotten Realms, but the goofy stuff (Mary Sues, everything-plus-the-kitchen-sink incorporation, insistence on implementing metaplot via novels I have no desire to read) and orientation toward absurdly high-powered stuff always keeps me away.

But I like the old "Baldur's Gate" computer games.  And the FR Boxed Set 1st Edition (with the parchmenty pages) was beautiful.  Every time I see that it makes me want to play with it.

...And, of course, Greyhawk has more than its fair share of goofiness.  Like I said, I'm biased by nostalgia.

What to do, what to do...?

What settings are officially supported don't interest me much, as long as the core medieval fantasy stuff (swords, platemail, wizards, dragons) are present.

Well, this isn't about official settings. This is the RPGA Living Greyhawk organized play campaign, which has a couple 10's of thousands of players, I believe.

I feel a bit bad, because I introduced tons of people (more than 10 at least) to D&D through this program, and some of those people (including one guy who kinda yelled at Chris Tulach during the announcement and left the RPGA meeting) are really upset. This is the announced end of a campaign they have been playing in. I'm also sort of loosely associated with another guy who happens to be one of the triad members of my region, and I happen to know that guy does a lot of work. (I've also helped out on occasion, by writing encounter blocks for a battle interactive--which amounted to something like 40 different uniquely templated stat blocks for an adventure, so they could re-stat out the entrire adventure at any level from 2nd to 16th); it's a lot of work. People just love this campaign.

Anyhow, they are all waaay more upset than I am, in fact. They feel like the campaign is being arbitrarily ended on them. My highest level LG character is a pair of 3rd level guys, neither of whom I am especially attached to. I didn't join LG until it had already been in existence until the beginning of year 6. By that time, there really was a bit of an entrenched clique that kinda ran things.

But we talked about it on the way home. I am ready to get behind this new campaign at the beginning. The Living Realms campaign is only be as good as people make it, and it will require the same kind of work. Getting involved at the beginning could be very exciting.

Looking at it another way, this could be the chance of a lifetime, really!

(We DID eventually collect enough tokens to win the Grand Duchy of Geoff's shield by the way, but  someone else decided he wanted it to, and beat us to it. We had to track the guy down (from the Bandit Kingdoms) and convince him to trade for the Bone March shield. Right at the end we almost ended up short when one guys showed up and donated 30 more tokens...)

Anyhow, I'm not one of those guys who clings to old editions. I've heard some interesting things so far, and I've already made some initial contacts about getting involved in leading a playtest group and maybe keeping an eye on Living Realms.

We'll see!

Quote from: Abyssal MawWell, this isn't about official settings. This is the RPGA Living Greyhawk organized play campaign, which has a couple 10's of thousands of players, I believe.

If Living Greyhawk isn't an official setting, how can someone from Wizards seems to have announced that it is coming to an end?  If your buddy and others like him are upset, they simply need to declare independence and take Living Greyhawk in another direction.

You can't.  Living Greyhawk is run by the RPGA - which is run by WotC.  And that's not even including the fact that all of that IP is very heavily guarded - why I have no idea.

For example, if you wrote a mod for Living Greyhawk, you get the rights returned to you (assuming WotC didn't buy it outright) after two years (when play ends for that mod.  Oh, except all of the IP of Greyhawk, specific GH names, places, etc, are stripped out.

Nice, huh?

People are always floating this idea, and I wish it could occur - take GH independent.  But for some reason, WotC, which seems to treat GH as the red-headed step child of its settings (mny theory - because Gygax was involved), clamps down tight on that shit.

I'm hoping that by removing GH as the implied default setting, it might loosen the grip...maybe...dare to dream...

Quote from: jrientsIf Living Greyhawk isn't an official setting, how can someone from Wizards seems to have announced that it is coming to an end?  If your buddy and others like him are upset, they simply need to declare independence and take Living Greyhawk in another direction.

I thought the same thing... I'm actually waiting to see if the guy running our game (one of the Ket triad and really enthusiastic about the setting) decides to keep it going, or if he'll make the switch to Forgotten Realms.

Anyone know if there's a Sinbad / Aladdin type area in the Realms, and how will WotC decide which real world area gets which Realms area?  

Hopefully they'll set Eastern Canada in the Moonshae's... since that's the only FR book I ever bothered reading. :D

Quote from: James J SkachBut for some reason, WotC, which seems to treat GH as the red-headed step child of its settings (mny theory - because Gygax was involved), clamps down tight on that shit.

I have a hunch that when Wizards bought TSR there was an anti-Gary Gygax clause in the deal somewhere. :(

If it's any consolation, my region is the Theocracy of the Pale.

I mean, how lame is THAT? The only way I'd want to interact with those institutionalized do-gooders is nuke them from orbit, then repair to my stronghold in the Drachensgrab Mountains.

To Jrients: James Skach is explaining it pretty good.

The "Living Realms" campaign will use the new rules. That's the draw.

See that's the thing with the living campaigns. They are primarily promotional tools that just happen to connect players to games in a controlled fashion,. (and theyre brilliant at doing this-I've met at least a hundred people playing LG). I contend that ANY game putting together an organized play program for their game, managing a campaign like this would benefit hugely. Forward to Adventure, Rifts, .. ANY game that poured a little money and effort into something like this, the payouts are huge.

To Stuart: I seem to recall that there is an arabian knights type area of FR. I'll have to recheck the books. I'm not a big Realms guy. In fact, I think they eventually stuck Al Qadim itself somewhere in the world of the Realms. (Can anyone confirm this?)

Coincidentally, I bought the Al Qadim sourcebook for 2e again. I had sold this off for 40$ a few years ago. I just rebought it for 9$. I think I want to do an Al Qadim-ish game next.

I'm in Verbobonc.  And I think the hardest part was that I had decided to pursue more Living Greyhawk a little while ago - got my character more fleshed out - wrote him a background and everything.  Almost got to GenCon for gaming - plans for all kinds of things.

Now, eh, not so sure.

Perhaps I should push to get back into that Realms home campaign that my little hospital visit precluded....

Isn't that Calimport...where Drizzt (I know, a bad word) goes to rescue the halfling?  Isn't that supposed to be the kind of Arabian Nights chunk?

James, I think you are right! Calimport.

The Theocracy of the Pale sounds awful, but it could be fun being a rebel there. Heh.

Quote from: King of Old SchoolEd Greenwood is a really interesting guy.  His own take on FR would probably make Bradford Walker's "Joe Gamer" spontaneously combust!

Heh.  I'd laugh if that happened.

This is awesome news!  The rpga fucks and the FR losers will now be only one group to avoid instead of two.

Quote from: NicephorusThis is awesome news!  The rpga fucks and the FR losers will now be only one group to avoid instead of two.

You may even wish to avoid all human contact, in order to ensure you don't run into any of them secretly!

Quote from: Abyssal MawYou may even wish to avoid all human contact, in order to ensure you don't run into any of them secretly!

No need for that, one can usually smell them coming.

Quote from: NicephorusNo need for that, one can usually smell them coming.

Thus it is said, "the sweet scent of honeysuckle offends the shit-wallowing pig."

Quote from: James J SkachI'm in Verbobonc.

Verbobonc here, too.

Earlier tonight during my shift at work the Owner/Manager of another game store stopped into chat . He knew about the 4th edition announcement - but apparently the switch from Living Greyhawk to Realms he head first from "ME" tonight. (hated being the bearer of bad news.)


 He's pretty pissed off about it.

 At his store they have gaming tables and they have been running Living Greyhawk games there for at least the past year and half.

 Hell, his general opinion of WotC has taken a dive because of these back-to-back announcements.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Zachary The FirstVerbobonc here, too.

Yeah, me too.  Probably the worst possible region I could find myself in, as the whole place seems to reek of faux-Tolkien renfaire D&D.  Is there a region of Oerth more wussified than Verbobonc?

Quote from: jrientsYeah, me too.  Probably the worst possible region I could find myself in, as the whole place seems to reek of faux-Tolkien renfaire D&D.  Is there a region of Oerth more wussified than Verbobonc?

Hmmm...maybe one of the other regions would trade us...but who?

Quote from: J ArcaneNow, wait just a damn minute.  Isn't inheriting a host of retarded Mary Sues and GMPCs from the novels the whole goddamn problem with the Realms in the first place?  How the fuck is this helping anything?

Maybe we'll once again get gems like "Beneath the Twisted Tower". Heel! Heel! :rolleyes:

I'm not down with all the slang you kids are into these days: What is a mary sue?

Quote from: Zachary The FirstHmmm...maybe one of the other regions would trade us...but who?

I hear California has always bitched about their region.  Perhaps with all of the angst ridden actors they'd love the faux-Tolkien Ren Faire stuff?

Ahh...It won't matter in a mere...what...16 months?

So we should be discussing...shudder...what LR region we should fight for :haw:

Quote from: AosI'm not down with all the slang you kids are into these days: What is a mary sue?

Sometimes Wikipedia is actually useful:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_sue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_sue)
 
Elminster is as about as Mary Sue as a Mary Sue could be.

wow.
I think i just failed my SAN check.

Quote from: James J SkachI hear California has always bitched about their region.  Perhaps with all of the angst ridden actors they'd love the faux-Tolkien Ren Faire stuff?

Dude, dumping the Theocracy on North Cal is as appropriate as handing the Pomarj to the Vatican, and angst doesn't enter into it.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityDude, dumping the Theocracy on North Cal is as appropriate as handing the Pomarj to the Vatican, and angst doesn't enter into it.

Oh no, my apologies if that's how it came across.  I can see how it would.

No no...I don't have any problem with them bitching about what they got.  I was never really clear on what the bitching was about, but it seemed to have something to do with number of people versus the size of the region. I never heard that it was bitching about the kind of region - was it?  That's interesting.

And it's not like the Theocracy would be the greatest for Illinois Indiana either, it was jsut a suggestion based on the fact that I had heard of (possibly completely valid) complaints from/about that region about the assignment.

As I said, it won't matter for much longer.

So who would California get in the Realms...hmmm...I wonder...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Coast_(Greyhawk)

I could make the Thoecracy of the Pale work.  They're called the Pale because of their pure Sueloise blood leading to white skin, right?  And it's a theocracy.  Basically take the Evil Empire of Star Wars with the Nazi themes turned up even higher and mix it with the Spanish inquisition, WFRP Witch-Hunters, Opus Dei/Illuminati/grey alien conspiracy kookery, and put every Jackass Lawful Patriach You Ever Tried To Buy Raise Dead From in as the master villain.

Clearly, you're not cut out to be an RPGA company man.

Sing along with me:

QuoteO Blinding Light!

By Derek Schubert
Lyrics for The Pale

The Theocracy of the Pale has adapted "O Blinding Light!" to serve as a national anthem, with only a slight change in the second stanza. As sung elsewhere in the Flanaess, the stanza refers not to The Pale, but rather to the whole body of worshippers as a beacon of inspiration to those who live in the darkness of ignorance.

[The tune is famous on Oerth, but those native to Earth can sing along using the tune of "O Canada!"]

O Blinding Light! To our devoted eyes
Show One True Path that soars to shining skies.
By faith defended, armed with Law,
The Pale undaunted stands,
A blessèd beacon, blazing bright
Above all other lands.
O Blinding Light! Let saint and heathen see,
Steadfast we march for Pholtan victory.
O Blinding Light, shine forth to victory!

Man, that's some creepy shit there.

Interesting; I think the original form of that anthem, written and performed by the young Ernie Gygax, went something like...

QuoteOh, Blinding Light,
Oh, Light that blinds

Repeated at the table until someone threatens to kill your character. ;)