The Satanic panic in the 80s was fairly big news, but the effects were regional. If you were outside the Bible Belt, or your parents just didn't care, it was probably just distant noise. Plus, most kids don't follow the news. At all.

So it wasn't just possible for the Satanic panic to barely register on a kid in the 80s, it was likely. Historical memory is distorted by the fact that those who were affected by the panic do remember, and naturally have strong feelings on the subject, so they dominate the conversation. But it's silly to pretend that's the universal experience.

Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 07:33:56 AM
The Satanic panic in the 80s was fairly big news, but the effects were regional. If you were outside the Bible Belt, or your parents just didn't care, it was probably just distant noise. Plus, most kids don't follow the news. At all.

So it wasn't just possible for the Satanic panic to barely register on a kid in the 80s, it was likely. Historical memory is distorted by the fact that those who were affected by the panic do remember, and naturally have strong feelings on the subject, so they dominate the conversation. But it's silly to pretend that's the universal experience.

By far the most common response in the Bible belt to the panic was that some concerned parent, teacher, pastor, etc. said something like, "Hey, could you explain this thing to me?"  Then someone did.  And the authority figure then reported back to whomever had got their knickers in a twist that it was harmless.  This whole process could take less than an hour, with no screaming, shouting, drama, or even in many cases teenage angst or rebellion.  Because contrary to popular belief, plenty of people in the '80s were reasonably well adjusted, including teens. 

Did it get blown out or proportion by some?  Did some go off the deep end over it?  Did some gamers react in perhaps less than optimal ways to it, even to simple questions that might have blown over with a little humor and calmness?  Did a lot of other dysfunctional stuff that had nothing whatsoever to do with the games gets dragged in?  You betcha, on all that.  That's the stuff that people remember now, and not coincidentally, the worst of it was what made the news. 

I suspect most normal gamer kids in the '80s were aware of it, because we'd had at least a few questions from adults that were concerned enough to ask (as opposed to "concerned" in a busybody way).   I personally got more than a few queries along the lines from adults of, "I know there is no problem with this, but what are you going to say to those that are?"  I never met a gamer from the Bible Belt of roughly my age that hadn't had that conversation at one time or another, though granted maybe we were an unusual case.  In every group I was ever even tangentially related to, we had a discussion about it as a group, specifically talking about how we would handle questions.  In my main personal group, that's how we had our long-standing, public policy of anyone was welcome to watch our game at any time, no questions asked.  Playing was optional.   When someone got even a hint of an adult getting bent out of shape over it, our immediate, trained response was to invite them to the game. 

There is bit of a "martyr complex" going on with memories of the panic in gaming circles, where it is has to be inflated to something bigger than it was to fit self image, and also a certain amount of piling on, the same way a hell of a lot more people talked about fighting for the resistance in France after WW II than actually did.  And just like people making up stories about the resistance doesn't change the fact that some brave people did fight and die for real, people exaggerating the affects of the panic on themselves and others doesn't change the fact that some gamers had their stuff tossed unfairly by adults and other such outcomes.  But not as widespread as advertised. 

Quote from: Pat on March 28, 2022, 07:33:56 AM
The Satanic panic in the 80s was fairly big news, but the effects were regional. If you were outside the Bible Belt, or your parents just didn't care, it was probably just distant noise. Plus, most kids don't follow the news. At all.

So it wasn't just possible for the Satanic panic to barely register on a kid in the 80s, it was likely. Historical memory is distorted by the fact that those who were affected by the panic do remember, and naturally have strong feelings on the subject, so they dominate the conversation. But it's silly to pretend that's the universal experience.

  I had a friend in college (mid-90s) who was a gamer from Louisiana and a self-described fundamentalist ... and he'd never even heard of the Panic until I mentioned it to him.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 28, 2022, 08:36:59 AM

By far the most common response in the Bible belt to the panic was that some concerned parent, teacher, pastor, etc. said something like, "Hey, could you explain this thing to me?"  Then someone did.  And the authority figure then reported back to whomever had got their knickers in a twist that it was harmless.  This whole process could take less than an hour, with no screaming, shouting, drama, or even in many cases teenage angst or rebellion.  Because contrary to popular belief, plenty of people in the '80s were reasonably well adjusted, including teens. 

Did it get blown out or proportion by some?  Did some go off the deep end over it?  Did some gamers react in perhaps less than optimal ways to it, even to simple questions that might have blown over with a little humor and calmness?  Did a lot of other dysfunctional stuff that had nothing whatsoever to do with the games gets dragged in?  You betcha, on all that.  That's the stuff that people remember now, and not coincidentally, the worst of it was what made the news. 

I suspect most normal gamer kids in the '80s were aware of it, because we'd had at least a few questions from adults that were concerned enough to ask (as opposed to "concerned" in a busybody way).   I personally got more than a few queries along the lines from adults of, "I know there is no problem with this, but what are you going to say to those that are?"  I never met a gamer from the Bible Belt of roughly my age that hadn't had that conversation at one time or another, though granted maybe we were an unusual case.  In every group I was ever even tangentially related to, we had a discussion about it as a group, specifically talking about how we would handle questions.  In my main personal group, that's how we had our long-standing, public policy of anyone was welcome to watch our game at any time, no questions asked.  Playing was optional.   When someone got even a hint of an adult getting bent out of shape over it, our immediate, trained response was to invite them to the game. 

There is bit of a "martyr complex" going on with memories of the panic in gaming circles, where it is has to be inflated to something bigger than it was to fit self image, and also a certain amount of piling on, the same way a hell of a lot more people talked about fighting for the resistance in France after WW II than actually did.  And just like people making up stories about the resistance doesn't change the fact that some brave people did fight and die for real, people exaggerating the affects of the panic on themselves and others doesn't change the fact that some gamers had their stuff tossed unfairly by adults and other such outcomes.  But not as widespread as advertised.

Can confirm this.  I was living in Mississippi at the time, and I never got any negativity about my gaming from my parents, teachers, or any other adults in my life.  A handful of kids at high school made a few "Satanic" comments, but then those assholes didn't like my hair, clothes and taste in music as well.  If you watched the national news you would think there was this big epidemic.  Were there religious fundamentalists who objected to D & D?  Certainly, but their number and actual influence was grossly exaggerated.  I remember being outraged that TSR deleted devils, demons, etc, from the 2nd edition of AD & D over this crap.  But it takes a very few whiners to get an entire company to fold or get a TV show cancelled.

Quote from: S'mon on March 27, 2022, 03:05:50 PM

Quote from: Blankman on March 27, 2022, 02:41:01 PM
Cam Banks was born in 1971 according to Google, but yeah, he's from new Zealand. I don't think the satanic panic was much of a thing outside the US. Sometimes, cultural issues in the US aren't relevant outside it, especially before the rise of the internet. Not everyone is from the US.

We had it in Northern Ireland, & in parts of Britain.

It didn't even reach every part of the US though.

My only brief experience with it in NE Indiana was in the mid-80's when my friend's moral busybody mother took his D&D books and my friend to our priest claiming it was her son's "devil worship kit" and that the priest save her son.

So our priest gave the books back to my friend, sat his mother down and explained to her that it was just a game about fighting monsters, not worshiping them.

That's the first and last time I encountered the Satanic Panic.

To be fair, being in Catholic school probably played a big role in that; Jack Chick hated Catholics even more than he hated D&D so no one in my circles were ever exposed to that particular brand of idiocy and, if they were, probably presumed it was just as distorted as his tracts against Catholics. Without charismatic authorities to push it the panic just never gained any traction (though having a level-headed priest certainly helped too).

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on March 14, 2022, 08:00:26 PM

Quote from: migo on March 14, 2022, 06:43:12 PM
That does sound more deserving of it. So far the best I can find is https://www.kenandrobintalkaboutstuff.com/index.php/episode-257-gen-con-2017/#comment-346454 which suggests they may be posted online. On the other hand if they had some really objectionable things to say they may not post it at all.

Edit: Found a link to a podcast of what may be the seminar, can't listen to it though because I'm not in the US. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dspn-presents/id1244458830?mt=2

   I've found several links, but they've all expired. It was five years ago, after all.

I found one that's good enough. It's the 2018 one instead of 2017, but probably says even more since it's with Cat Tobin, so it's not just the position of some part-time employees of Pelgrane, but rather the ownership.

https://podtail.com/podcast/curiosity-in-focus/cif-special-5-gaming-saves-the-world-ft-shel-kahn-/

Cam Banks having no memory of the Satanic Panic is really a red herring and completely irrelevant. What's relevant is what he has been saying for years and continues to say. I've had a policy for years of boycotting anything from any company that even hires him in a part time role. And that has meant knocking out several games that I quite liked.

Quote from: migo on March 28, 2022, 10:29:55 AM
Cam Banks having no memory of the Satanic Panic is really a red herring and completely irrelevant. What's relevant is what he has been saying for years and continues to say. I've had a policy for years of boycotting anything from any company that even hires him in a part time role. And that has meant knocking out several games that I quite liked.

Agreed and seconded.

It's like how a bunch of new gamers instead of admitting they were more interested in other hobbies like sports etc or more interested in dating the popular kids want to make some victim narrative.

We would like to have had more women in our games. Most acted like we were lower than pond scum. Gays and trans in the 1980-early 2000s many were either in the closet and pretended to be straight for fear of being socially ostracized.

Pic sure go find one when the majority of students in my school were white. Better to be victims than blame other real causes.

Quote from: migo on March 28, 2022, 10:29:55 AM
Cam Banks having no memory of the Satanic Panic is really a red herring and completely irrelevant. What's relevant is what he has been saying for years and continues to say. I've had a policy for years of boycotting anything from any company that even hires him in a part time role. And that has meant knocking out several games that I quite liked.

Fair enough.

Quote from: Abraxus on March 28, 2022, 10:48:30 AM
We would like to have had more women in our games. Most acted like we were lower than pond scum.

Yes, and now that they realized our hobby is actually fun, they want to blame us for them not participating, rather than admit that they were the assholes.

Quote from: migo on March 28, 2022, 10:29:55 AM
Cam Banks having no memory of the Satanic Panic is really a red herring and completely irrelevant.

Absolutely...

Quote from: migo on March 28, 2022, 10:54:19 AM

Quote from: Abraxus on March 28, 2022, 10:48:30 AM
We would like to have had more women in our games. Most acted like we were lower than pond scum.

Yes, and now that they realized our hobby is actually fun, they want to blame us for them not participating, rather than admit that they were the assholes.

Consider it a crash course in what it's like to be married...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 11:20:25 AM

Quote from: migo on March 28, 2022, 10:54:19 AM

Quote from: Abraxus on March 28, 2022, 10:48:30 AM
We would like to have had more women in our games. Most acted like we were lower than pond scum.

Yes, and now that they realized our hobby is actually fun, they want to blame us for them not participating, rather than admit that they were the assholes.

Consider it a crash course in what it's like to be married...

Am married, can vaguely confirm. Likewise, with the twitterati response of "I was excluded and gatekeeping was an issue and still is reee"; I have a distinct feeling that they weren't excluded due to physical characteristics but moreso because they were either shitty to the group or a That Guy^tm and were then kicked out of their tables..

Also complete side note since I was the one that recommended them, I believe Stockholm Cartel (Mork Borg) and Old Skull Publishing should be moved to yellow. While I'm personally not a fan of Diogo's politics or art, his rules and writing are solid; and he keeps politics out of his games with his work on coyote and crow being a rather large exception (Diogo owns Old Skull).

With Stockholm Cartel, looking at their OGL statement again I understand what they're trying to do a bit more, as Sweden has fairly strict laws regarding the stuff mentioned, and the Swedish Doom Metal scene has a lot of Varg types. It seems like they just wanna distance from that and protect their asses, while not explicitly saying it; and there is not a drop of politics in their game or supplements.

Quote from: PonchoGoblin on March 30, 2022, 02:22:18 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 28, 2022, 11:20:25 AM

Quote from: migo on March 28, 2022, 10:54:19 AM

Quote from: Abraxus on March 28, 2022, 10:48:30 AM
We would like to have had more women in our games. Most acted like we were lower than pond scum.

Yes, and now that they realized our hobby is actually fun, they want to blame us for them not participating, rather than admit that they were the assholes.

Consider it a crash course in what it's like to be married...

Am married, can vaguely confirm. Likewise, with the twitterati response of "I was excluded and gatekeeping was an issue and still is reee"; I have a distinct feeling that they weren't excluded due to physical characteristics but moreso because they were either shitty to the group or a That Guy^tm and were then kicked out of their tables..

These people are folks that are looking to cause trouble and get away with it, bullies looking for a reason to be assholes. It really does just boil down to that, and this is yet another way for them to stir the shit.